Where Islamism Starts, Interfaith Dialogue Stops
For a long time, I have recognized that interfaith dialogues do not exactly represent an open forum for genuine intellectual discourse, mainly when it comes to challenging the issue of the supremacist ideology of Islam. But if there was any doubt in my mind, the event that I recently attended confirmed it.
The forum took place on December 4th at the Westminster Presbyterian Church in Buffalo, New York. The featured guest speaker was reform Rabbi Klein-Katz, a resident of Israel involved in interfaith dialogue for many years. The two organizers were the Westminster Presbyterian Church’s Rev. Dr. Thomas H. Yorty and reform Temple Beth Zion’s Rabbi Harry Rosenfeld. There were somewhere between 20-30 people in the audience, mostly church members but also a few others from the Jewish community.
Rabbi Klein-Katz shared his personal experiences working in Israel. I found his presentation to be entertaining and captivating. He shared a few experiences teaching Judaism in a convent in Israel and discussed the challenges of dialoguing mostly with Christians. Highlighting the need to allow friendly and civilized exchanges, the rabbi told the story of Ambassador Michael Oren, who last year during his presentation at UC Irvine was interrupted by a mob of Muslim students. The rabbi praised the president of UC Irvine for intervening and finally forcing the “fundamentalist extremist” Muslims from the hall. To underscore the clichés often used in interfaith dialogues which highlight the prejudices that we all share, the rabbi talked about his grandmother who immigrated to the U.S. from Romania. She spoke in Yiddish, using disparaging language against non-Jews in phrases like “those drunken Goyim.”
He then opened the discussion for the audience. The first speaker related a story from long ago, in which his pastor stated that the Christians have done more damage to humanity than any other group or religion. In response, the rabbi argued that all religions have a shared responsibility in causing harm to others, especially when they are in a position of power. He stressed that Jews up to now have had no power, but now that we have Israel, we too bear our own share of bad behavior.
The next attendee complained about Israel building 1,500 new apartment units. His complaint was politically motivated, he admitted, but he nevertheless felt that he had to raise the issue. The rabbi reacted in full agreement.
Pastor Yorty spoke about the attempt of the interfaith community in Buffalo to engage Muslims in a trialogue. Challenges driven by “the politics,” he complained, get in the way.
Then came my turn. I first discussed my mother’s experience as a child in Seget Transylvania. Especially during Christmas time, she and many other Jewish kids used to hide for fear of retribution, blamed and threatened for “killing Jesus.” I wanted to put the rabbi’s grandmother’s story in perspective. There was an obvious reason why Jews had a negative view of the non-Jews. It did not appear out of nowhere.
I expressed my full support for dialogue with Christians amid continuing and genuine reconciliation. I also shared that in Akko, Israel, I lived among Christians and Muslims, but didn’t learn much about Islam as a student in Israeli schools. The rabbi asked if I learned about Christianity. I answered that I learned Christian history in the context of European history and how it related to Jews in every period.
And then I shared my interest in Islam for the past few years. I agreed with Rev. Yorty that “politics” get in the way of dialogue — because Islam maintains a supremacist political ideology. I wanted to share a quote, which is part of the document of the Muslim Brotherhood and their mission in the U.S.:
a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.
I was about to read this quote as Rev. Yorty stood up and stated that now he would take the place of the UC Irvine president and asked me to keep quiet because he did not want to discuss politics. I asked if he was refusing to let me continue. This he affirmed. I then left the room. My husband and a friend who had joined us then followed.
“How can liberally minded individuals, including Jews — who like to think of themselves as “progressives” — decline to challenge the misleading worldviews we hear reinforced over and over again?”
because it is the liberal minded “progressives” who are enforcing these misleading worldviews over and over again
Agreed, there is a delicious irony at work here.
I especially love the pathetic iconography of the “Coexist” bumper stickers…
Pretty hard to do, when ONE of them (gee, quess which?) contends its a DEATH SENTENCE to dare blaspheme their symbol by encorporating it with the others.
They would kill the illustrator, everyone who worked at the printing plant, not to mention everyone who displays it.
Its a dangerous joke, simplistic, idiotic wishfull thinking…
Only a liberal, you know, the kind who thinks “they” are sooo smart and enlightened they could reason mugger, a rapist, or murderer, if they could just TALK to them?…
Yeah, only THAT level of ASS-HAT believes we can change Mohammed from what he was, is, and always will be.
@The Root ’83
Pacman is mohammed.
because it is the liberal minded “progressives” who are enforcing these misleading worldviews over and over again
It’s especially bad in the dying old-line denominations. See the statement above in which the one speaker described his pastor for blaming Christianity for everything. You can bet he was not an evangelical.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her recent (brilliant) book “NOMAD” discusses this reluctance to address the anti-free, anti-tolerant, anti-woman, anti-questioning aspects of Islam, in the name of “tolerance” or “politeness” or “openmindedness”. She–a former Muslim agnostic–specifically asks the Christian church to counter the threat of Islamic radicalism by providing an alternative life view to Muslim immigrants to Western nations. It is impossible to contradict these aspects of Islam if one is unwilling to understand them for what they are and to discuss them. I wish Reverend Yorty would read this book.
SB,
Thank you for the reference to Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book “Nomad”. I read her book Infidel and thought it was excellent. Probably the most inspiring autobiography I’ve ever read. I look forward to reading “Nomad”.
Interfaith dialogue has become one of the many handy bugaboos of ALL leftist talking points, all in order to bludgeon hapless citizens into submission.
To wit, if the discussion benefits the US and Israel then up is down and right is wrong.
Progressives/regressive disciples align themselves with the MOST repressive elements in society.Under the guise of interfaith dialogue one is FORBIDDEN from questioning, from pointing out that which Islam holds as it verily truth.
The misguided in the audience are then led/fed to believe that questioning said ‘truths’ is to be a racist, bigot and ‘Islamophobic’.
Orwell reigns supreme in the well funded, deeply dangerous interfaith dialogue industry!!
“I asked if he was refusing to let me continue. This he affirmed. I then left the room.”
It is a shame you left – I would have been interested in his answer if you had at this point asked him – why? What was he afraid of hearing?
What we really need is for lots of people to read the source documents on Islam. Then they can see for themselves that the founder of the religion could not be a prophet sent by God to help humanity. When you read the life of Mohammed you have to admit he was a ferocious criminal. Most Muslims are such nice people that if they really knew what Mohammed was like they would be deeply shocked. Most Dhiimis do not mean any harm. They think they are doing the right thing. The ignorance about the start of the religion is the most sinister threat to our civilisation since the fall of the Berlin wall. Read!
It seems ironic that if a major war starts soon in the Middle East, especially if Iran gets a nuclear weapon, the world may be destroyed over an issue that we thought people stopped fighting about roughly 300 years ago, namely which group of people has the stronger God. Are we, as human beings, happy about the fact that we are going to fight yet another religious war in the 21st century? I thought this was 2010 and not 1710. Perhaps Christopher Hitchens was right. Religion doesn’t solve anything and has the possibility of destroying everything. So much for “kind, benevolent, and peaceful” Gods. I’m just getting sick and tired of people, any people, using their religion as a reason for killing other people. Not much of a religion if that religion makes excuses for killing other people, right? Now why can’t people in other parts of the world see it that way, too?
namely which group of people has the stronger God
This is not and has never been the issue. People do not argue over God’s strength – He hardly needs our help, and I wish that people who discuss this topic (why people are fighting) would stop being distracted by such nonsensical topics. All of the evils ascribed to “religion” by yourself and such as John Lennon are in fact due to one thing only: the desire for temporal power (which is, BTW, why getting rid of “religion” will not perfect humanity, despite what Karl Marx preached).
Your are exactly right Paul of Alexandria. People who would like to ascribe all the evils in the world to religion, like marx and john lennon are the same folks who deny the existence of original sin, or an imperfect human nature. Liberals deny the existence of natural law; they believe that all things are social constructs. That is why they ascribe to social engineering programs which make a mess of our society. Poor old john lennon was wrong and so is libertyship.
Perhaps we should just stick with what Napoleon once said about God and war. He said that, “God is on the side with the heavier artillery.” We would do well to remember that when the final confrontation comes between Islam and Christianity.
Christianity has the bigger bombs, yet we will lose this war. It is foretold. It won’t be by arms that it is finally won – and it won’t be won by us. When the Son returns is when the end game will commence.
“…namely which group of people has the stronger God
This is not and has never been the issue. …”
Yes! When I think about it – I think it goes back to the first two commandments of the Bible. Every religious war, etc. is just a violation of these: Everyone, be it Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc., wants to be right, wants to be on top/first, etc. If we could just give this up (1st two commandments kept) then all would be well. Not likely to happen, which is why we do need a savior. If God is who he says he is (Christian, Jew, or Muslim) he absolutely doesn’t need us fighting about him – he is who he is, period, and we cannot change or effect that in any way in fighting about it. (Which is why, IMO, Islamic jihad makes Islam suspect in that respect; i.e., an invention of man.)
“I’m just getting sick and tired of people, any people, using their religion as a reason for killing other people”
Yeah, everybody is guilty, right?
HMMM.
Pope says DONT kill…not even them microscopic babies
No Fatwa from him lately…
dont see the Baptists doing it…
or the Wiccans…
or the Amish….
Them uber violent Episcoplalians…not so much
Buddists? hmph, dont think so
What about them Ying and Yang asiatics..whats that called?
Shinto?…Shogun?
You know, the japs and koreans, them Kung-fu fighter priests?
Aint been blowing up much lately that I can see.
Actually, come to think, aint many “religions” at all that kill FOR their religion
‘Cept fer the God Damn MUSLIMS, they own that market.
Not nice, but TRUE
Only islam kills in the name of their religion. All others fight for their survival against islam. Call this a religious war if you’d like. But there is only one aggressor in this equation.
1) You should have remained, because you merely quoted a document. Similarly, you can easily state unpalatable tuths about Muhammad by just quoting excerpts from, the hadiths, in particular those of Bukhari and Muslim, or from ibn Ishaq’s Life of the Prophet, a canonical text in the Sunnah. Anybody who objects to quoting a text places himself in an inferior position. If I quote carefully chosen documents by Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Hitler, etc., there is virtually no need for me to add lengthy comments as to the nature of communism and nazism.
2) In interfaith dialogues, vocabulary should be carefully examined. What does “peace” mean in “Islam is a religion of peace”? It means that the dar as-salam, the abode of peace, is the dar al-islam, the area where Islam reigns supreme, and that is all. Is Islam a “religion”, a “faith”? No, given our standard definitions. It is a total ideological and behavioural system. Is Islam “moderate”? Yes, of course: Islam’s self-presentation is that of a middle-of-the-road Way, so cutting a thief’s hand is a “moderate” penalty. Etc. Let’s not get fooled by rhetoric.
Ms. Lipsky, I admire everyone that still has the courage and energy to attempt to have a dialogue with opposing forces – good for you.
In regards to Islam and Muslims, I’ve given up the hope for peaceful coexistence or dialogue. Regardless how many facts one brings to the table, there exists no endeavor on the Muslims’ part to accomplish anything less than Dar al-Islam.
Nobody should play by Muslim’s rules.
Yes, we should “play by their rules”…..
Because its about survival against those that would KILL us in our beds as we sleep..
You cant negotiate with, befriend, cajole, or otherwise soften the hatred of a rapist or murderer, whose hands are at your very throat.
Call them who they are, and fight.
While “interfaith dialogs” are always interesting, in the end they can do no good of any kind. The base assumption is – and must be in order to present a forum with an appearance of neutrality – that all participating religions are equally true or false. Each representative says his or her piece, there is no criticism, nobody ends up being wrong. This is why, for instance, Rev. Yorty shut Rachel down. She would have disturbed the equanimity of the discussion. (Personally, I would question the Reverend’s motivations, but that’s outside of this topic).
In reality, of course, every member of any faith (including the atheists) knows that he/she is right and the others are full of bologna. Of course at most only one can actually be correct, but very few people are willing to question their own religion’s bases to the point of being able to convert if proved wrong. So, any “interfaith dialog” is doomed to failure from the start, since none of the participants can speak what they truly believe.
Paul,
You cannot assume all religions are equal, because they are not.
A simple and dispassionate examination of (a) religions basic beliefs are enough to PROVE which one is toxic for all humankind, and which, at its ABSOLUTE WORST, is a benign fairytale full of wishful thinking.
The problem is, Islam is EVIL.
How do you “respectfully” discuss that with them?
They will KILL YOU if you try.
I’ve seen interfaith marches for “peace” and “unity” and whatnot on the local level that highlight shallow comparisons and contrasts in order to create “understanding” and neighborhood cohesion. Their good intentions are evidenced by the fact that no one brings up jihad, Mohamed’s baby brides, and other such deal-killers. I suspect these are our “moderate Muslims.” They would be forced to denounce Islam if they really went into it deeply. Meanwhile, all the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim neighbors feel friendly and warm, and one supposes that in the event of another awful attack they won’t turn on each other the way they would in, say, India or the Philippines.
To be Kissingerian, maybe there is a role for this kind of stabilizing exercise that leaves horrid truths untouched. Islam’s necessary reformation must start with other people — intellectuals and warriors who aren’t afraid to kill or die.
There is no such thing as interfaith dialog with Muslims.
They respect and accept nothing but Islam.
Their faith is one of murder and conquest, co-joined with an accepted (required!) mandate to CONTINUOUSLY LIE about their ambitions for murder and conquest. That is what “Islam” is.
No one can defend it without lies.
Simply ask:
“do you denounce violence and murder”
They may say:
“of course we do”
Then declare:
“well then, you must denounce the life and actions of Mohammed himself, since your own sacred texts prove an obscene level of massacre and destruction, all at his command, including the ritual beheading of thousands of surrenderd prisoners, as he sat and watched. Every possible crime against fellow humans, including child rape, is a documented personal habit of his as well…..whereas you cannot find not a single instance anywhere in which Jesus calls for anything less than total love of your fellow man, even love for your enemies”
Say this, then be armed and prepared to protect your life, and your families lives FOREVER, because followers of the Religion of “Piece” will chop you into “pieces” for telling the truth about them, and the physcopathic serial killer they worship.
Excellently stated. (In fact, I will have to keep this approach in mind the next time I am in a discussion of this sort.)
Liberty Ship46;
The tragedy is when we go back far enough, the prototype for everyone’s god is the same. It is only through migration, modification, personal greed and power intervene over the last several thousand years, that religions branch into the various beliefs today.
Most people have no idea the History and origin of their own beliefs, rituals, or how current day practices evolved.
We must not fall for this nonsense of “interfaith dialogue” with Muslims. This is only a trick that Muslims like to play on non-Muslims so as to lull them into thinking that Islam and Muslims are just as normal as any other religion and its followers. Nothing is farther from truth than this. Muslims have no desire for any dialogue with others. All they want to do is to impose their will and religion on others. They come to non-Muslim countries for their economic betterment. However, as their numbers increase and they become economically stronger their demands for incorporating their religious beliefs in the host country’s daily life grows. This goes on in every aspect of life in the host nation until the host nation gives up under the banner of integration and multiculturalism. This is a standard operating procedure in all non-Muslim countries where Muslims have been allowed to come. Yet the West doesn’t learn anything from the Islamic history, current as well as that of last 1400 years!!!
To hell with this kind of interfaith dialogue!!!West must insist on keeping their religion at home and not in the public life!!! But, that is only a wishful thinking when the West is no concerned with it’s own survival!!1
Sorry Buddy, but I gotta call you out on this one…
“The tragedy is when we go back far enough, the prototype for everyone’s god is the same.”
Wishfull thinking my friend, the product of a tolerant Christian upbringing in the enlightened West. While many “gods” im MOST cultures are the same in terms of intended benevolence to mankind in general, there is ONE that stands out as toxic, through and through, since the first day of his “creation” by a madman in the desert.
There is NO resemblence between the God Allah and any other (current) systems Main Honcho. None whatsoever.
Allah is hateful, angry, duplicious, and violent. He is known as “the great deceiver” because he lies and creates mischief on earth better than any man can defend himself against or unravell. Allah is pure evil.
He demands you draw the blood of others as tribute and acknowledgement of YOUR MORTAL FEAR OF HIM. He demands you kill, rape, rob and destroy all who do not lay down to him. So what’s in it for you?
Youre earthly reward shall be booty, the loot from those you have robbed, and of course, the raping of any/all women of the conquered that have survived. Should you die before achieving such earthly rewards, paradise awaits you, but ONLY if you have fought and killed in his name.
HE specifically condemns the peaceful, the industrious, the home makers, the good and the charitable. They are worth nothing to him, none but those warriors that fight and die for him are ever to be praised by him.
This is WHY the Islamic world is so backward and poverty stricken. Their entire belief system, their very subsistence, is based on looting the goods of OTHER MORE PRODUCTIVE PEOPLES, not on producing anything of or for THEMSELVES.
Problem is, once you kill all the “Infidels” in your area, you’ve essensially killed the “golden goose” that produced all things you want and need….while you remain ignorant, illiterate and destitute, because Allah spit upon the learned, and demanded only death and war.
It is a destructive, ultimately SELF DESTRUCTIVE system of catastrophic failure.
But since the capricious will of Allah can never be understood, since he is EXPECTED to be evil, disingenuous, change his mind, lie, torture and torment you for his fleeting pleasures, its all good.
The rantings of the Madman from the desert are unlike ANY other.
All religions are NOT the same at the core.
Some are good, some benign, and sone (one in particular) are simply EVIL.
Root 83 I couldn’t agree with you more.
Islam accepted as a bonafide religion is a cruel joke on mankind hoisted upon us by satan with Mo as his messenger in his ongoing attempts to pervert and destroy God’s works. After all, he was cast out of heaven..
And no, I’m not religious but I like to think of myself as a spiritual being. If you ask me at any given time if i believe in God or not I might answer yes one day and no the next. That’s how confused i am about that issue. But all that not withstanding if you take the biblical stories for fact that Lucifer was cast out of heaven for leading a revolt against God then it makes perfect sense to me that he would become vengeful and determined to rule in God’s place he found a useful idiot called Mohammed to be his messenger and the evil game was on.
It’s just a story, right?
I believe islam was created by satan. That WAS the argument, after all. God wanted mankind to believe and worship Him through free will. Satan believed mankind should be forced to worship and treated as slaves.
Pretty much what islam adheres to – forced conversions and a lifelong slavery to its totalitarian rules. Just pure misery.
I have never participated in an interfaith dialog, but it seems to me that such a dialog cannot be based on discussing beliefs, because that will go nowhere. What it should focus on is objectively demonstrated behavior, particularly with regard to tolerating others who believe differently.
This is where an honest discussion including Islam founders on the rocks.
The purely religious aspects of Islam are as legitimate as any other, since all are unprovable. But the observable behaviour of many of its current adherents is demonstrably less civilized than the current behavior of adherents to other faiths. Islam is in crisis because of this breakdown of civilized behavior. Rather than responding with introspection the Islamic world projects this despair outward. Many Christians and Jews who have lost confidence in their own creeds are susceptible to the lure of this unyielding creed that shows no self-doubt.
“The purely religious aspects of Islam are as legitimate as any other,”
No, Steve, they are not.
Islam is purely voilent
Unless you believe child rape, torture, beheading, slavery, murder and theivery and of course, the proscribed practice of LYING about, so as to further ADVANCE, the above, are ligitimate as religious beliefs.
These are the REQUIREMENTS in Islam, to please Mohammed and God
They are 100% fully and completetly incomperable to any other religion on the face of the earth today.
The Cult of Perpetual Violence is what it is.
All you have to do is READ.
Rachel, this article should be of interest to every Christian and Jew alike.
I have attended a few of these “interfaith” alliances just as observer, and the only one of any worth was between Christian and Jew, with no Muslims in attendance that I was aware. The dialogue was strictly a sharing of faith without politic.
These “interfaith alliances” between Christian, Jew and Muslim always boil down to politic, not faith, sprinkled with a smattering of feel good ‘religious’ talk about love, commonality and social justice.
You see, there’s an insidious disease that it is growing in the Protestant Christian community – not terribly large, but very loud. It goes by many euphemisms, but the two most common are referred to as “mainstream” or “liberal” theology. You recently witnessed its “fruits.”
For the sake of brevity, if I could make analogy from Christian to Jew to describe these ministers of Protestant liberal theology, you might picture a modern day Balaam.
quran quote and hadiths say it all for Islam wake up people!
“Fight them, until there is no more dissent and religion is that of Allâh” 2:193
“I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks (beheading) and smite all their fingertips off them.” 8:12
He (Allah) has sent His Apostle (Muhammad) with the guidance and the (only) true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions’ Quran 48:28
The prophet of Islam boasted, “I have been made victorious with TERROR”. Bukhari: 4.52. 220
Bukhari 9, 84, 57: WHOEVER CHANGED HIS ISLAMIC RELIGION, THEN KILL HIM.”
“Slay the unbelievers wherever you catch them.” 2:191
“Verily, the unbelievers are unclean.” 9:28
9:5 “fight & slay the Pagans wherever you find them, & seize them, beleaguer them, & lie in wait for them in every strategem of war. But if they repent, & establish regular prayers & pay Zakat, then open the way for them.”
9:29:“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizyah with willing submission, & feel themselves subdued.”
“The vilest of animals in Allâh’s sight are those who disbelieve.” 8:55
The basics of Islam & politics http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/224/
Most important sentence from Islamreligion.com article 224
“The primary act of faith is to strive to implement God’s will in both private and public life. Muslims see that they, themselves, as well as the world around them, must be in total submission to God and his Will. Moreover, they know that this concept of His rule must be established on earth in order to create a just society.”
Allah does not mean G-d. It means the god. Allah Akbar means the god is greatest. Greatest of what? The god is greatest of all other gods at the kabba. Mohammad said so.
Please do not try to mislead people by writting G-d is Allah. I doubt the Muslim Brotherhood wrote G-d as well, but it appears some sheep are afraid to point out Islam is a pagan religion.
I’m not.
sorry the root83, but your reacting instead of reading.
your not going back far enough; Islam, Christianity, Jewish, these religions spring from far earlier beliefs and practices. It is individuals and power structures that corrupted core beliefs over the last several thousand years, religion become political and economic.
They still wrap themselves in holy and sacred rituals and beliefs, but removed from their origins. Organized Religion has replaced spiritual need, and people are worse off for it.
Five Thousand years before Christ walked the earth, origins of the great religions began, from here it slowly evolved into what we have today, but along the way dozens of cultures and beliefs were absorbed and influenced them, they are a mixture of many systems.
One of the problems is lack of effort seeking origins of beliefs; where they come from, who organized their beliefs, what groups influenced them, how were records kept, where and who created them, what other influences created what they believe today…. most people don’t know how they came to believe in what they do.
Wrong alex,
I’m reacting to WHAT I read, as the readings themselves, are crystal clear.
“It is individuals and power structures that corrupted core beliefs over the last several thousand years, ”
Islam is not “several thousand” years old, as Mohammed, its founder, was born around 500-550 AD. It is the “newest” religion of the big three, and simultaneously, the most astonishingly immature of the group.
Core beliefs can be found in any religion by reading its “sacred” scriptures, and theirs is horrifying in its proclimations of violence and the evil nature of god.
Read what the books SAY Alex, not what you THINK the books MEANT to say. Whatever fashionable new-age horse-hockey about how they were “inspired”, how they “evolved” where the “real original” concepts came from, are irrellevent, and here’s why….
Religion(s) ARE WHAT THEY SAY THEY ARE.
Anything else is opinion…unproven, unsubstantiated, individual OPINION, of endless possible variety, with nothing concrete to back it up.
The earliest versions of any legend are the most accurate, and if it can be shown that the texts DO NOT CHANGE over time, there is NO ARGUEMENT about what they “mean”
Christianity survives because, despite (sometimes successful) attempts turn it into a State Power, its FOUNDATION is about love, mutual respect, and “humane” human interaction.
It was “saved” if you will, BY its scriptures, by people who READ it and said “political coersion is NOT what Jesus wanted, its here in black and white, unchanged, for 2000 years…love even your enemies”
Same goes for Islam…The oldest scripures are all they have to go by, and it is indisputeable, from THEIR OWN SACRED TEXTS that Mohammed was a Tyrant, a murderer, a child rapist, a plunderer and torturer who proclaimed that God was even more evil, angry and duplicious than HE was, so you’d better submit. And by the way, we can lie to any and all, to expand the murderous slavery, Allah says so.
You unfortunately suffer from the same dillusions that many in the Christain West suffer from…that if you treat everyone with respect, they will respect you for it.
In some places (like jail, bad neighborhoods, and with Muslims) that backfires pretty quick…and you end up DEAD
Read the books.
The Bible states Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers, NOT Jews. This truth was considered irrelevant by the apostate church. It is revolting and indescribably evil that Jews had to hide from Christians at Christmas and Easter. What a mockery the apostate church has made out of Christianity.
Jesus taught from the Jewish Scriptures in the synagogues and in the Temple on the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem, Israel. Jesus kept Saturday Sabbath, Passover and all of the Jewish holy days. Once the Jew-haters got control of the church, they got rid of all of the Jewish things Jesus, the JEW, did.
The terrible horror of the Inquisitions.
As angels wept, the apostate church in their intense, all-consuming hate for G-D and G-D’s Laws committed unspeakable acts and mass murder of Jews; the brothers and sisters of Jesus, the Jew. Killing in the name of G-D; they committed great blasphemy. Their punishment from G-D will be terrifying.
Jesus said in the Bible: “Treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.” The apostate Church who became incredibly rich through the use of the name of Jesus, hated Jesus and Jesus’ words.
The savage wolves warned about in the Bible, entered the church whilst the church was in its infancy. The savage wolves never left.
Linda,
True, true, and Guilty as charged. But Christianity survives because the REAL MESSAGE Jesus has this nasty way of peeking through, and laying bare the imposters every now and again. Love IS better than hate.
Islam, on the other hand, is hell on earth. An evil system of LIES and DECEPTIONS that excuse murder and slavery. Their God is a monsterous deity of hate, revenge, death and humilliation. ‘The Great Deceiver” lies to them, and tortures them for his amusement. He is insecure and seeks contunuous blood and suffering as proof of his power over you.
To escape his wrath, they must kill and torture OTHERs to please HIM, thus earning some sick recognition or respite from him.
Its a horrible belief system that can only BE lied about to make it palatable….and lying, to trick someone into their death to amuse Allah, and advance Islam, is an accepted, REQUIRED, tennent along with Jihad.
It has no place among civilized people.
Hi Root ’83
Yes, indeed. Jewish scriptures is a beautiful message of G-D’s love for humanity. And the Christian Bible also is a beautiful message of G-D’s love for humanity.
It is G-D’s amazing love, care and kindness for humanity that wins our hearts. He is our Hero! Forever!
We are in a desperate fight for our survival. In Islam, the world is divided into the House of Islam, Dar al-Islam, the 56 countries conquered by Islam; and Dar al-harb, the House of War – countries not yet conquered by Islam. Under excessively cruel Islamic sharia law, women are treated as inferior and defenseless non-Muslims have no human rights. In many Muslim countries, non-Muslims live every day in fear.
Turkey’s Prime Minister Erdogan on “moderate Islam”: ‘These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate Islam.” Milliyet, Turkey, August 21, 2007.
Turkey’s Prime Minister, Erdogan, publicly read an Islamic poem: “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and Muslims our soldiers…”
http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/
Tears of Jihad.
These figures are a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad.
For 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.
120 million Africans
60 million Christians
The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”
80 million Hindus
In jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam); everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India.
10 million Buddhists
This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.
http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/
Bible: Genesis 4:10 And God said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.”
Justice, freedom and human rights must not be blotted out from our world!
Alex,
I agree with one statement you made, the rest is simply jargon for man’s imagined sovereignty over some mystic and unknown god.
You are correct that organized religion has in large part attempted to replace personal spiritual need, and we are worse for it.
But as a Christian, I can tell you exactly where my “roots” start. A covenant between Abram and what I believe the One True Living God. What root did Judaism arise?
Because if you are to believe in a sovereign God from the Jewish faith, then it follows when God first called Abram, He instructed Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you”.
That’s not a root. That’s a beginning, with the sole influence being the one that said “I AM.” What ever cultural influence is contained in the written word, it as permitted, directed and accomplished through and with the blessing of “I AM.”
Rachel,
Is that a correct quote from the Muslim Brotherhood? They would not have written G-d, but Allah. Allah means the god, and Allah Akbar means the god is greatest. Greatest of what? All other gods at the Kabba. 360 false gods which include the god.
Please do not mislead people, and yourself by writting G-d is the same as Allah. Allah does not exist, and you can not have a personal relationship with it.
Islam, which means submit, is not a great religion, or political system. It is a great pagan religion, and political system.
Have a great Marine Corp day.
” Interfaith dialogue ” is pure baloney. It allows otherwise no-nothings to puff themselves up while foisting their hotel bills and travel expenses on a gullible public.
The late Rabbi Eliezer Berkovits said it a whole lot better…
” Human beings ought to treat each other with respect and hold each other dear independently of what they believe about each others religion. I am free to reject any religion as humbug if that is what I think of it; but I am in duty bound to respect the dignity of every human being no matter what I may think of his religion. It is not interreligious understanding that mankind needs but interhuman understanding- an understanding based on our common humanity and wholly independent of any need for for common religious beliefs or theological principles. “
Too bad the Islamists don’t see things that way.
@Menachem Ben Yakov,
What you quote is certainly worth striving our utomost for. However, history has shown that people will deliberatly and continually reject this wise and sage advice.
Let’s not forget to continue to carry a big stick. That too is wisdom.
Let’s just “Move On” from the “CoXisT” crap and “Pick A Side” *smile*…
http://www.pickasidesticker.com/specs/tag/coexist-bumper-sticker
That’s awesome! I may have to buy one, even though I don’t even have a car.
This is why I think it is unproductive to attempt an interfaith dialogue by simply having people tell their stories about the bad behavior of this or that member of this or that religion. There can always be found examples of bad behavior from followers of every religion.
The better way is to instead discuss what each religion teaches from its texts, and then look at the behavior of those who are following these texts. Islam teaches unbelievers must be converted (by force, if necessary), subjugated under sharia law, or killed. These teachings are found in no other religion that I am aware of, certainly not Christianity or Judaism.
The difference in the teachings of religions is what we need to focus on, not just giving examples of the followers of the religions.
“There can always be found examples of bad behavior from followers of every religion”
Thats bull crap. Feel-good nonesence that “were all the same” will get you, and a lot of other innocent people killed.
No followers of any religion REGULARLY KILL IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD, except for Muslims. They OWN that market share, with 99.999% of sales.
Period.
The “what about Timmothy Mcveigh” nonsense doesnt fly. He never said, or believed “jesus wants me to do this” he described HIMSELF as an ATHEIST.
And one more inconvenient tid bit, what he did was EXPRESSLY AGAINST ALL the teachings of the Christian faith.
What Muslims do with bombs, swords, box cutters and underpants, is EXPRESSLY IN COMPLIANCE with the REQUIREMENTS of the Muslim faith.
Just ask their founder, Mohammed…the “perfect” man, indisputable, inarguable, never to be questiond or criticized on penalty of death.
Go SEE what he commands, its clear, all you have to do is READ.
Muslims are absolutely unique in that violence, death, destruction and humilliation of their neighbors ARE THE HOLY SACRAMENTS OF THEIR FAITH.
They go to paradise for BEING EVIL, ROTTEN, NASTY AND CRUEL TO THEIR NEIGHBORS, NOT FOR BEING GOOD TO THEM.
If you have not figured out by now that Islam is evil. Then there is no way of reasoning with you. Islam makes it very clear that they think Islam is the only religion and are meant to rule the world. They follow the teachings of a pedophile who was delusional. Islam teaches that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth and all Jews must be killed and then they will move, to killing all the Christians. Which Islam already does when they are the majority in that country. Do not believe me read the quran for yourself. Any religion that teaches its followers that it is okay to lie to people. How can you trust anything they say or do? Islam thinks it has the world afraid of them so they try to get away with as many lies as they can. Educate yourself and use your “GOD” given right to think and learn for yourself. Trust no man, trust “Jesus” all he did is teach us to do is love your neighbor as you love yourself!
Maybe the Islamists should change that “Coexist” sign to read “Coexist or we’ll kill you”.
They will “Keeeeel you” just for that bumper sticker….
You defame them by putting a symbol of “the Prophet” in the same place as symbols other faiths….a capital crime, you must be killed for even contemplating in your mind to do so.
All must be “KEEEELED”…. The printer, the factory workers that produce them, the ones who sold them, put them on their cars, and yes, even every Muslim who ever SAW one of those stickers and did not spontaneously combust in outrage and revenge.
Infidels, all, just ask Big Mo
At least now you know the turgid waste of time that “interfaith” “dialogues” pose to the thinking adult.
Get a hobby – much more productive.
Click on the link to read this article. Be warned, it is graphic and horrifying.
A Farhud legacy of hate
By EDWIN BLACK SPECIAL TO THE JERUSALEM POST
12/16/2010 04:12
Jews were massacred by Arabs in 1929 for sitting while praying at the Western Wall
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=199634
http://gaultfalcon.blogspot.com/2010/07/coexist-my-i-slam.html
Coexist What a laugh… Mohammad, an disenfranchised Jew, fled Jerusalem to save his life when he was hearsay in the Jewish synagogues… It took him 27 years to get from Jerusalem to Mecca, in which time he fabricated the Qua’ran and used the Babylonian Moon god Allah as his god… and with his teachings have taught to hate Jews and blacks.. yes blacks… it says in the Qua’ran that Allah gave the blacks to them to be their slaves, and Jews to hate and kill… then they want to tell us, that Islam is a religion of love… it is a religion of hate…. A false religion, and we should do like German has done.. if they want to cause insurrection here, try them for insurrection… but take one step further and hang them….
Thanks for highlighting UC-Irvine where I teach. I was present at the Oren event and it was clearly planned and orchestrated. In the end, UCI let them off with a token one quarter suspension and the MSU continued under another name.
These inter-faith meetings are an exercise in Taqqiya-fooling the non-Muslim. Many of the imams who participate are lying to us. I have been to 2 of them and the Christian and Jewish reps try to “limit the damage” to the Imams by hard questions.
Gary Fouse
Adj teacher
UCI-EXT
Youtube video. Horrifying and Evil
Quran School نحوه تدریس مسلمانان در آفریقا
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jwii8QihT0&feature=player_embedded
G-D help these innocent, defenseless children.
The serpent system(s) were some of the first major religions if you will, in the Mesopotamian region, approximately two thousand years before Adam and Eve walked the earth ( using strict biblical timeline per fundamental beliefs, or C. 6,500BC)
As these beliefs spread through trade and shipping in the Mediterranean, they carried along rituals, observances and practices. These practices and rituals continued into the lands of would would become Israel a thousand years later.
The story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor for overthrow of snake cults by a new religion, which over time becomes Judaism. One of the main resources that Judaism has is the written language, the alphabet borrowed from Phoenician traders and shipping syndicates, which spread the tanakh, or ancient Hebrew bible, to ports and trade routes. The new religion slowly replaces snake cults, mystery religions, astro-religious systems, systems such as Nimrod and Semaramis which become the queen of heaven and known as Astarte and Isis in other lands.
By the Time God of the old testament makes his covenant with Abraham and the nation of Israel, many pagan religions are being replaced with mono theistic beliefs, the mystery religions are diminishing, and Judaism is rapidly spreading across the land in no small part due to superior written books by learned scribes and philosophies involving multi layered and complex studies of the Talmud
The merging of old and new testaments is due to one man, the roman emperor Constantine, who decrees that the beliefs of followers of the Christ, is now a state sponsored religion in 326 AD.
Constantine brings together hundreds of scribes, scholars, philosophers, and astronomers to agree on which books were to become the Bible as we know it today. Dozens of gospels and books are tossed, some to never resurface again as the organized roman Christian church is mandated to find and destroy books that conflict with the agreed upon Bible.
Much of the Talmud requires intense study over decades to unlock, it is only in this method that mysteries of what has come before can be understood. But we cannot assume Judaism and Christianity exist in a vacuum, immune to outside influences and beliefs. They evolved and can be readily traced how, when, where and by what religions.
There is no such thing as a pure religion, they borrowed from each other, and in some cases wiped all traces of the previous belief system out. When a competing belief system was felt to be a threat, then the holy armies were brought to stamp out competing believers.
Religions come and go, expand, contract and die out, or absorbed by another. it has been this way over the last Five thousand years humanity has written them down. In a few thousand years, there will be another great religion to replace the ones we practice today. It is a small matter.
In this context, Muslim following is rapidly growing, apparently spreading fear in reading these posts. If your faith is grounded in Christ, Does it really matter ?
Check out how the Dalia Lama characterized Islam at one such “interfaith dialog,” the 2006, self-congratulatory titled “A Gathering of Hearts Illuminating Compassion,” held—where else—in California (http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-dhimmi-dalai-lama/). Moreover, the influential Dalai has since gone on to misinform his followers/those who hold him in high regard about the true nature of Islam in several subsequent statements.
I noticed in the reporting of another such interfaith gathering, called to promote “dialog” “understanding” and “healing”, that the Imam involved used the insulting form of salutation reserved for unbelievers when addressing the other religious leaders, and no one called him on it. It was really just an insult fest in which the Muslim spewed Takiyya and Kitman and played the other religious types like a cheap violin, and they were either totally uncomprehending that they were being insulted and played, or they knew what was going on but did not dare to protest; thus, a total waste of time and harmful to boot.
Ms Lipsky,
You did a nice job with this article. The frustration that comes with an emerging knowledge of the Islamist problem, and the resistance of our leftist leaders (at seemingly all levels) to recognize the obvious, is well stated here. I am confident, however, that the emergence will eventually overpower the resistance. Thank you for contributing your voice.
Islam Tax Dollars for Muslims
by Connie Hair / 09/02/2010
The Obama Administration reportedly held a special workshop this week to help leaders of controversial Muslim groups acquire “direct access” to taxpayer funding for their activities.
The event’s main organizer, the Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO) has long-established ties to Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, which fostered many Islamist terror groups. Some of CCMO’s member groups were unindicted co-conspirators in the successfully prosecuted terrorist funding trial against the Holy Land Foundation (HLF). Event organizers said they would dedicate themselves to “cutting through red tape” to provide “direct access” to U.S. taxpayer funding for these terrorist funding-related groups.
An email announcement was sent out August 27 by the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), a group long associated with Muslim Brotherhood and an unindicted co-conspirator in the HLF trial. The ISNA email said: “The Workshop: So what exactly is this workshop, you may ask. Leaders from Muslim organizations around the nation, particularly social service organizations, are invited to a workshop with representatives from the DOA, Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, Health and Human Services, the White House, Department of Education, the Department of Homeland Security, and more. Twenty-five to thirty Muslim leaders representing 20 Muslim organizations are expected to attend the workshop. “According to a representative of CCMO, this workshop is designed to clarify how Muslim nonprofits, mosques, Islamic centers, and social service organizations can strengthen their communities through more direct access to opportunities provided to social service agencies at the federal level. ‘It will hopefully help cut through some of the red tape and shine light on the many opportunities for funding, government assistance, and resources that we just don’t know about at the local level,’ said Elsanousi.”
The Obama Administration has not disclosed which CCMO groups attended the “direct access” to taxpayer funding workshop. The Department of Agriculture (DOA) referenced in the email as a sponsoring group did not respond to requests for information on the event.
Christine Brim on the website Big Peace has provided in-depth research into the CCMO and member groups. As Brim notes in her piece, the CCMO website has been scrubbed of a great deal of information on its Muslim Brotherhood ties, yet the Wayback Machine offers prior versions of the group’s website (2004-2008) that include more information on the groups ties to Muslim Brotherhood.
One such member list found on the CCMO’s 2007 website reads like a who’s who of Muslim Brotherhood organizations.
Brim compiles background information on several unindicted co-conspirator groups (information from the Investigative Project on Terrorism) listed among the CCMO member organizations and terror-funding linked organizations advertising on the CCMO website:
• The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism finance trial, and the source of Friday’s email promoting this CCMO/Department of Agriculture Event.
• The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) , shunned by the FBI, several of its leaders indicted or convicted for terrorism, a possible violator of the Foreign Agents Registration Act, sued for fraud by Muslim, Hispanic and African-American families, named as an unindicted co-conspirator (CAIR fundraiser advertised at the CCMO site) in HLF trial.
• The International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT), the “think tank” of the Muslim Brotherhood according to The Grand Jihad author and former prosecutor Andrew McCarthy. One of the current and longest-serving officers of CCMO is Imam Johari Abdul-Malik, founder of the educational arm of IIIT, the Fairfax Institute and the director of outreach for the Dar-ul Hijrah “Terror” Mosque.
• The Muslim Public Affairs Committee (MPAC), exposed in IPT report for their defense of terrorists and terrorist financers. MPAC advertised here at the CCMO site for an event co-sponsored by Islamic Free Market Institute, the latter described in Paul Sperry’s book Infiltration)
• The Dar al Hijrah Mosque (known as the “Terror Mosque” in Northern Virginia for its links to imprisoned, indicted or wanted terrorists as vividly described by Frank Gaffney), advertised here at the CCMO site.
• The Muslim American Society “Freedom Foundation” (MASFF) run by three-time felon Mahdi Bray (MASFF fundraiser advertised at the CCMO site). The Muslim American Society was originally founded as the U.S. branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. MAS leader Mahdi Bray was elected on September 7, 2003 to the Executive Committee by over 40 CCMO member organizations.
The justice presiding over the HLF trial, U.S. District Judge Jorge A. Solis, was so concerned about the significance of the ongoing threat to America and that so many unindicted co-conspirators remained to be prosecuted, he ordered the documents submitted as evidence be put on the uscourts.gov web site.
For a broad offering of documents submitted in this trial, see the court documentation on the NEFA Foundation website.
When a party is designated as an unindicted co-conspirator in a trial it essentially means that the government could have indicted and prosecuted that party with the same evidence they are using to prosecute the conspirators actually indicted.
The sheer volume of Muslim groups listed as part of the terrorist funding schemes deterred simultaneous prosecutions so they were compiled in an unindicted co-conspirator list.
Two of the groups, ISNA and the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), unsuccessfully petitioned to have their names removed from the HLF unindicted co-conspirator list. The prosecution blocked the groups’ removal through a filing in federal court in Dallas stating: “During last year’s trial, numerous exhibits were entered into evidence establishing both ISNA’s and NAIT’s intimate relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood, the Palestine Committee, and the defendants in this case,” the prosecutors wrote. “They were intimately connected with the HLF and its assigned task of providing financial support to HAMAS…. That ISNA and NAIT appeared in these documents and share a common history with these defendants is a reflection of the evidence, not any attempt to ‘disparage’ or ‘vilify.’”
Politico’s Josh Gerstein this week reported ISNA and NAIT are again attempting to have their names removed from the HLF list. In a highly controversial move, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals has sealed all of the filings and moved the proceedings behind closed doors.
Gee, just when the lame-stream media convinced you that Barry Hussein is a Christian?
This thread is going out with a whimper instead of laying bare the core of its premise; All believers must confront the truth about Muslim extremism. At least this writer asks the right question(s). This website in general has a tragic history of laying the dots out but failing to connect them.
What is the Core of Muslim extremism..? Follow the money.
Who funds the Wahabbi Schools, why are writers so afraid to name the House of Saud that not only created and funds these schools but do so increasingly since the attacks in New York on September 11, 2001. Those were Saudi Arabian Citizens, schooling paid with Saudi money and yet we ignore the truth and sweep it under the rug.
If we actually wanted the truth, Saudi Arabia would have been the target of our anger, not Iraq.
We live in a fantasy world arranged like a house of cards. It will come crashing down one day, some day soon, as people start to realize they have been sold a bill of goods by their religious and Government leaders. Muslim extremism is just the start.
The two sides in the conflict ongoing for 6 decades since the collapse of the British Mandate of Palestine present an excellent and too often ignored argument for separation of church and state; neither side will indulge in this and so they suffer.
This is the fate of polities which indulge in nation building and allow mythical beings and meteors to dictate social imperatives. Go ahead and indulge but don’t say you never knew about the chopping down of the “divine right of kings” in the Declaration of Independence and please take note of the fact that the divine right of nations essentially resides in the same kingly abyss.