What Do the ‘Holiday Terror Warning’ Targets Have in Common?
The entirely predictable holiday terror warning has been sent out from the Department of Homeland Insecurity to law enforcement agencies nationwide once again. Tell me if you can spot what all of the following potential targets have in common.
The document suggests that terrorists may consider public gatherings like “sporting events, parades, religious and cultural activities” to be attractive targets. “Attacks against these targets could maximize the psychological impact on the American public given the symbolic importance of the holiday season to many in the United States,” says the bulletin. “Attacks against air cargo during this busy season are also a concern.”
If you guessed that all of these are (a) places where large crowds gather, and (b) places where authorities have outlawed the otherwise legal carry of concealed weapons, you were right!
Laws of course vary from state to state, but the simple fact is that the large majority of states — even those that allow concealed carry — have lacked the foresight to see a concealed carry permit holder as anything other than a civilian protecting himself or herself. They have yet to grasp the fact that concealed carry permit holders are the first line of defense against a Mumbai-style attack.
In my county (Wake), there are 12,826 people with concealed carry permits, a fraction of the 195,553 citizens in North Carolina that could be legally carrying firearms on any given day. It goes without saying that the civilian firepower here dwarfs that of local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. We must assume the same runs true in all “red” states.
Unfortunately, like almost every other state in the union, squeamish legislators here have unduly restricted the rights of carry permit holders to exclude them from “going heeled” in the vast majority of public places. Virtually every public place that a terrorist might find an attractive target has been made into a softer target by well-intentioned but short-sighted legislators.
Let’s look at that list of potential targets that DHS published again: ” … sporting events, parades, religious and cultural activities.” Add to that malls and schools as prime “anytime” targets that are especially ripe this time of year. In each and every one of these places, citizens in many states have been barred from carrying concealed firearms. These restrictions, with variations, have been pushed upon carry permit holders in every state where anti-gun politicians have caved to unrealistic fears that a permit holder could start firing indiscriminately into crowds. These same authorities, of course, are comforted by armed and uniformed law enforcement officers in these same locations, even though these officers are few and far between, and often have lesser firearm skills than the carry permit holders.
As a result of these restrictions, carry permit holders have two choices. They can choose to break these arbitrary and illogical laws and carry their weapons, running the risk of fines or imprisonment, or they can go unarmed. The vast majority, of course, choose to go unarmed. This is the exact point of nuisance restrictions placed upon carry permit holders. While anti-gun legislators bend to public opinion and pass minimal laws that allow the issuance of permits, they make the process of carrying as onerous and restrictive as possible in an attempt to keep the number of citizens exercising their rights minimized. It is nanny-statist, vindictive, and deadly.
“The Israelis have learned a hard lesson as the result of these kinds of attacks. They have learned to respond by allowing their citizens far more liberal carry rights.”
True of soldiers and security forces, not so true of civilians. While in IDF uniform I was allowed to carry an assault rifle through shopping malls, as a civilian (no record, gainfully employed, fully paid parking tickets etc.) I still can’t get a handgun license, since I don’t live out in the West Bank and can’t prove a need to the government bureaucrat at the licensing office.
There is a myth that Israel is heavily armed. In the back country, this is true, especially the West Bank. It is not true of population centers like Tel Aviv, Jerusalem or Haifa, which are precisely the areas of concern in your article. It is hard to get a handgun in these places.
Bottom line, in popular Israel you have to prove you need a gun. In many parts of the US, the sheriff has to prove you don’t. That’s fundamental.
I’m glad you pointed that out. But the cities are pretty heavily armed, simply because there are so many soldiers and soldierettes (Sorry, Hebrew is gender-specific) running around with their sub-machine guns. Of course, our courts are perhaps worse than those in the U.S., unless we are dealing with shooting someone commiting a terorist act.
What about the Israeli citizen that stopped a rampaging terrorist on a bulldozer a year or so ago? I had the impression he was a concealed carrier.
My impression was that he was not carrying as a civilian. It is hard to tell; the reprots tell you what they do or did in thearmy (remember, universal draft, often including years of reserve call-ups), so it hard to tell.
I had to argue with some guy on the net who wanted to know why he kept shooting him. Well, we’ve learned that here – too many people killed by terrorist AFTER the terrorist was shot.
That said, the Rules of Engagement here are perhaps worse than the U.S., although they have improved. Our civilain – to hostile ration in Gaza was 2 to 3, compared to 1 to 10 (!) for NATO – and yet they accuse us of war crimes! Our soldiers endanger themselves to protect the enemy; many here think this immoral.
That is COMPLETELY TRUE — and an excellent point! (that the IDF puts themselves in FAR more danger than ANY other army purely to save enemy civilians — who of course are often in cahoots with their terrorist brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, fathers, etc,).
Also, on the point of the dificulty of obtaining a concealed handgun after your army service is well over, or if you have never served, remember (as another poster wrote) almost EVERYWHERE you go in Israel (not jut the West Bank at all!) there are military men and woman with their Galil assault rifles or whatever it is they are carrying these days slung over their shoulder — I mean, at rest stops on a highway, at restaurants in the middle of nowehere, basically everywhere you go.
So while one small group of people may have a hard time obtaining handguns, the fact is, almost without exception everywhere you go in Israel (and I’ve been everywhere as a tourist, as a student and as a year-long resident) there are IDF members with automatic rifles… everywhere, every bathroom, every restaurant, every bus-stop… the list goes on and on.
Those bulldozer attacks (plural) were stopped by any of a number of people: off duty policeman, off duty members of other military units in the IDF, IDF members themselves in transit, and simply policeman on duty. And then there are of course there’s the Shin Bet and agencies who carry concealed weapons by law.
In Jerusalem (especially), there are always Israelis with guns practically every 50 meters. And by the way, as an American, one might feel odd at first from seeing all those guns & rifles in plain sight, but you quickly become
1) very acclimated to that sight — especially since the bearers of those weapons are causal with them (they are always exercising safety at all times, but still, they are clearly very “emotionally comfortable” with them — which tends to make you, the American also feel comfortable and safe)
2) you feel EXTREMELY PROTECTED by having all those young, sharp-eyed, quick-witted armed soldiers around you — people who, in a split second will shoot a terrorist and many (and this boggles my mind) will throw themselves (i.e. their own bodies) on top of a suicide bomber, killing themselves, in order that their own bodies absorb the blast, and shrapnel, and nails, and pellets, and rat poison(!) that emanates (I believe the rat poison, arsenic, stops, or slows blood from its normal rate of coagulation — if one wants to learn about the depths of preparations of an evil mind, this is it. Further, the act of throwing one’s body on top of a bomb, that is, a suicide bomber, no matter how many times I’ve read about it, never fails to bring tears to my eyes. Simply to run towards a suicide bomber as opposed the natural human reaction of running away from him or her(!) is mind blowing in its courageousness.
I truly believe that if Americans knew more about how frequently that occurs — people in some form of military service hurling themselves on top of a suicide bomber in order to save countless others in the surrounding crowd… that this would solidify the bond between our two countries to an even greater extent.
– FF
There is a third option: avoid these soft target gatherings. . . . A basic rule of CCW is “avoid risky situations”.
Thatchanges who we are as a people – a culture. That is surrender and they will have won.
I contend that THEY have already won. They never really have to do anything effective again, all the have to do is start the rumor that they will do “X” and our government clamps down with even more “security” restrictions. The latest is the poisoned salad bar in hotels and restaurants — we haven’t seen the government’s reaction to that one but its coming.
I posit that al Queda did not care if the “shoe bomber” or the “underwear bomber” or the “liquids bombers” were ever successful. If the bombs had gone off it would have provided an unexpected additional benefit but we likely never would have known what actually happened so there is no real scare tactic resulting. But one the bomb didn’t go off it was a giveaway to a new tactic — their real motive was to cause our “security agencies” to place even more restrictions on the citizenry — which they obligingly did.
Al Queda sent halt-wits gathered up from some madrasa or mosque to do the complex task of igniting a homemade bomb. They didn’t care if the bomb went off, they wanted us to find it so we would formulate some half-a**ed REACTION, a reaction that would further tie up our civilization with more restrictions.
They’ve studied us and they understand us and what they need to do to cause us problems. They are working hard to drive a wedge between the government and its ever increasing restrictions and the citizenry chafing under th yolk of more and more “security.”
They’ve won and we prove it them every day.
Agree 100%, John. Their game is to foment social unrest and inflict economic damage by manipulating our government. Whether they actually succeed in any attack is irrelevant to them.
I completely agree. Reactive defense is not cost effective and is ultimately defeating.
The way to win is to attack the enemy, as we are doing in Asia. In this country, that means focusing our efforts on Islamists.
(sorry PC folks).
But let’s not forget how incredibly(!) our nation rose to the challenge of Peal Harbor. We had NOTHING for a Navy (which was a prime reason behind the attack), we had crap for the rest of the military — basically WEI supplies and tactics and generals schooled in “the last war” (of course that’s common to every country). Nevertheless, even in the midst of a depression (worse than now, but still perhaps analogous) we
1) grew “victory gardens” (and I’m only 45, so I’ve just read all about these increucible achievements
2) converted ALL of Detroit into tank & half-track producing plants practically overnight!
3) began the draft with almost no peep from the populace
4) On a DIME — and this is actually quite incredible — changed our entire culture which prior to 12/1942 viewed a woman’s place as in the home — to women taking over enormous(!) numbers of non-labor intensive work (which, it turns out, they were more apt at any way than men — there a re many experimental and anthropological studies that conclude that women are far better at LONG TERM stress (day in day out) while men are better at short term stresses (pain, intense pain, for one or two days perhaps of a battle) — and in fact, to go off on a tangent, the Israelis have found out that women do much better at jobs which require them to sit and monitor computer display screens (of sections of either the northern or Southern (Gaza) border for LONG periods of time without taking their eyes off. Men simply cannot sit still for that long.
Anyway, my main and only point is that this country IS in fact capable of a tremendous amount of both change AND sacrifice IF, shocked into it. Now one might argue: “Well wasn’t 9/11 ‘our Pearl Harbor?’” Well clearly it was “close” but apparently not close enough (with GREAT respect to the 3,000 dead — including a childhood best friend, Richard Blood — and half the company I used to work for, Cantor Fitzgerald)
And, please, to all the conspiracy nuts who say that dark Jewish forces were behind 9/11, Cantor-Fitzgerald was a highly Jewish populated organization (half the company was wiped out) — but of course, a conspiracy nut, will always have an answer and say perhaps, “well the Zionist Star Chamber — of which, I’m a junior member(!)
simply felt that they had to be sacrificed to make it believable”!
(I know I know, I shouldn’t even be giving any credence to that nonsense).
In any case, I think it will take a terrorist attack of a huge and potentially nuclear magnitude OR several terrorists attacks of high magnitude e.g. Mumbai style or similar — like dirty radioactive waste poured into the water tower of a 30,000 – 50,000 person (in population) town say just over the Southern border — after which all the townsfolk will develop various cancers — that will be needed in order to “put the bee in our bonnet” like WWII did.
Israelis have more liberal gun rights? Surely you jest? It’s practically impossible to get a handgun permit in Israel.
“If you guessed that all of these are (a) places where large crowds gather, and (b) places where authorities have outlawed the otherwise legal carry of concealed weapons, you were right!”
Authorities don’t outlaw guns in most places, the local malls, football stadiums or churches do. In general, the authorities outlaw guns in schools, federal properties and state buildings (courts, etc). In addition, in many places the signs banning guns are just sings without any power until someone tells you to leave the premises.
I carry firearms 24/7 due to threat from local Muslim community. I can carry to any place – libraries, malls, shops, airport, church, etc – there are signs posted that “ban guns,” except schools and federal properties, and some state and county properties. I do not go anywhere I can’t carry to. It is as simple as that.
Even though I’m allowed to carry openly, I prefer concealed carry. Concealed is concealed. Also, I carry for self-defense and protection of my family. I’m no sheepdog.
I’d like to see less restrictions regarding concealed and open carry, and, especially, more uniform carry laws throughout America. The laws vary from state to state so much it’s scary – Brian Aitken comes to mind.
Please don’t adopt Israeli gun laws!
2. RickGreenvilleSC
There is a third option: avoid these soft target gatherings. . . . A basic rule of CCW is “avoid risky situations”.
While that is true and a very good rule, life will get smaller and smaller as the “terrorists” call out more and more “targets”. Our spineless cowardly “politicians” will say time and time again that guns are too dangerous for everyday people. People will stay away from said sporting events and gathering places and the “terrorists” will have won.
We as gun owners are actually fighting two types of terrorists, the ones who are here to “do good” for the “people” while they take our freedom and the ones that want to come here and harm our bodies because of our freedom.
The only problem I see with gun control here in Western North Carolina,
(where many pickup trucks have high powered rifles and shotguns hanging in the back window)
is that if a band of terrorists take over a mall or public building,
after we kill all the terrorists,
we might start shooting each other.
Only kill the ones shouting Alla Ahkbar.
Good point,
Yes, I carry for personal protection, and I’ve trained others to do so for 30+ years. We’d all like to be able to offer some “life saving armed resistance” if we happen to be right at the initial point of contact in a Mubia-style shopping mall attack.
But in the back of my mind, I always wonder, if there are MULTIPLE armed people ducking and covering in civilian clothes, WHAT THE FREAK WOULD I DO??? How would I know who is who? The armed guy frantically charging near me…terrorist, deranged loner, or a CCW holder seeking safety?
More importantly what the freak would THEY do (the other armed civilians)seeing ME armed, crouching for cover, darting around looking for targets in a “trained” manner, while I AM in civilian clothes?
How would YOU like to be one of the first responding, UNIFORMED officers, to deal with a fluid situation like that?
My SUGGESTIONS to students(there is no “concrete plan” for something like this) who may find themselves in a Mubia style assault, is to:
1) Unless you are within arms reach of the opening salvo, ESCAPE if at all possible…run the freak out of there, as fast as you can.
The AK, AR or simmilar mid-caliber rifles they probably have will out-range, out-penetrate, and out-volume of fire the PDW and two mags you probably have on you.
Your first priority is to your family (if they are with you) Get them out ASAP, or if youre alone, get YOURSELF out ASAP so you dont die on them. Assist as many in escaping as you safely can, but your FIRST priority is not to get shot.
2) If you CANT get out, hunker down…get everyone else trapped with you behind you,(store rooms, counters, etc) and wait it out. Offer armed resistance only to save THEM if needed.
Do NOT go out “hunting” unless you are CERTAIN doing so will save others, while not endangering THEM. If you MUST get killed, die protecting the unarmed people you were stuck with from an ACTUAL assault, not because you were looking around trying to “help” people you couldnt see.
3) If you have good long lines of sight, and spot an obvious bad guy (the one spraying fire all over as he walks?)AND DOING SO WILL SAVE A LIFE OR INCREASE YOU ODDS OF SURVIVAL, think “slow AIMED fire” as the range will probably be greater than the typical arms length defensive scenario youre primarily trained for.
They may be wearing body armor (and even helmets) but legs, ankles, faces and necks are most likely still vulnerable. A terrorist who is hobbled with a single shot to the ankle or knee cannot further chase people…he will be easier to finsh off, maybe by someone else. One who is spurting blood from a shot to the throat, or femoral artery in the thigh, will be out of action soon. Center mass, and head shots may be best, but a single quick wound elsewhere may be good ENOUGH to buy some time
Engaging them is a LAST RESORT. Save your ammo, DO NOT give your position away by emtying a full magazine if you can “snipe”, wound, or slow them down, without your position being “made”. Do this ONLY if you are threatened, or are CERTAIN you are saving a life if you engage them.
Remember, this could be a long day. Two magazines (or maybe just one?) wont go very far once they start rolling.
4) Hunker down with as much cover as you can, and stay there. If no one is badly wounded, wait for Law Enforcement to TELL you to come out. Do not dispay your weapon AT ALL unless its to SHOOT TO LIVE.
Semper Fi
Sound advice. My wife and I have been trained in a similar manner and with precisely the same outlook. Nobody but a fool looks for a fight, and nobody but a fool relies on others for the preservation of their own life unless you’re operating in a well-trained unit.
That said, we are always armed with something.
I don’t think it would be too difficult in the first few moments of a Mumbai-style attack to identify enemy targets. They will be the ones with no uniforms and full-auto weapons, to which we carriers have no access. Carefully aiming, bang away with your beacon-greased ammo until empty, then get out.
Bacon bacon bacon ba###con.
There’s a little bit of bacon fat on the tip of every round I reload.
Fred,
And to all, Thanks for the Props,
Agreed, you could tell who they are in the first few seconds IF YOU SEE IT GO DOWN…thats where it gets stopped, if we’re lucky….. but after the first 10 seconds of gunfire and screams, with a startled crowd between you and whats going down, ANYONE running around with a weapon will cause an adreanaline spike the likes of which you’ve never experienced before…..
Your hands feel like balloons, you have no idea where your fingers are. You THINK you wiped the safety when you drew, but didnt feel it click. Your heart pounds, like a slow motion whip crack….chest, throat, temples and down your extemities in a wave, over and over. And its louder than you can believe, youre CERTAIN people around you (like the armed guy youre hiding from?) can literally HEAR it themselves.
Guy with a gun…friend or foe?
Dare I call out? Just shoot him, and be wrong?
The flight or fight reflex is great for running away, OR an ass-whooping fit of violent rage…great for football, bar brawls, or close combat with clubs, and swords….not so much for operating little hand held machines requiring fine motor skills, and analitical decision making regarding the consequences.
Us good guys have fear more than just the fight…we also fear accidentally shooting the wrong person, and the actions The State second guessing us when its over, or even shooting us before its over.
The terrorists have it easy.
Armed self defense is not cool, fun, or heroic…
It SUCKS. Its a tragedy to experience…
Very wise advice.
There is no way I want to go up against anyone armed with a high power rifle or even a powerful autoloader with my little 5 shot S&W .38 special. Getting family and myself away from the situation and fighting only when forced is exactly the right answer. Attracting fire for no good reason will only get defenseless people killed.
Please don’t get me wrong. Root 83′s advice is exactly right for young civilian fathers. My children are both long grown up and I have already had a long life. As a former soldier with grown children, I would like to think I would look at this scenario as a soldier would. Kill the enemy, mission #1. What ever else happens is secondary.
re: assault weapons vs pistols (or any other weapons).
In the end, you do your best to choose your ground, control as many variables as you can and use the tactics best suited to your weapon and abilities. Yes, obviously an AK47 or whatever has an advantage over a peashooter. A good weapon is ideal, but if all you have is a pointy stick, then use that. I always felt, when I lived in a trailer up in Alaska, that my sword was a better weapon than most weapons people would be coming in with, if it came to that — given that no room was significantly longer than I could reach with two steps and a lunge… and I never once had a sword jam or misfire.
Generally good advice.
One point in favor of selectively firing on terrorists, even if it isn’t effective, is that it will tend to cause them to slow down and take cover. If you disrupt their activities, you buy time for the escapers and for the reaction force.
Terrorist shooters rely on being able to act without opposition.
Root ’83′s advice is excellent if you are threatened by psychopaths, are caught in the middle of a drug war or any of dozens of other dangerous, somewhat likely situations. I’m afraid that like the excellent advice given to airline passengers finding themselves hijacked to Cuba, it may not fit the jihadist situation.
If it is a Mumbai type attack, the enemy objective will be to kill as many people as possible before the police or army kill them. The terrorists fully expect to die- their objective is maximum death and mayhem before that happens. They would, logically, pick a target location where a small number of them can hold off rescuers while their compatriots methodically kill as many as they can. A highrise, where they could work from the ground up would be ideal. A stadium where they cannot control access or escape is not.
Because they mean to kill everyone if possible, and because they have individual concealed weapon holders outgunned, holeing up behind cover with a handgun and trying to wait for help won’t work. They will methodically blast through whatever pitiful plywood and drywall cover you can find and kill you and those you are trying to protect. Like being cooperative until the airliner lands in Havana and you can go home again, that advice will not work in this situation.
I’m not sure what to do. The one advantage concealed carriers have in this situation is that, hopefully there are many more of us than there are of them. Some sort of swarm attack might work, especially if in confined quarters where the terrorist’s firepower advantage would be less effective.
It would mean that some -or many- of the handgunners would die. If you are unlucky enough to be in this situation, you should realize that there is a high probability that you are going to die in any event.
It would be helpful if some sort of battlecry or recognition signal could be used to coordinate a swarm attack. I would suggest “Let’s roll.” It has a honored tradition behind it and a lot of people might realize what it means.
A tactical discussion of this problem on the internet and in the shooting press would be valuable. We need some common understanding of what to do if and when this happens.
Good points made there. Like you, I have been training people for quite a long time, too. We work on the ‘Reactive’ and the ‘Proactive’ models for self-protection. Through Force-on-Force, the lessons of Close Range Gunfighting are well understood. However, for Active Shooter situations, shots at relatively long range may be needed. Most people are not trained or are unpracticed at these longer distances. While it is true that Self-Protection shooting situations are most likely at ten feet or less, there is also the chance that shots at over 50-100 yards may be needed. A little bit of practice at long range will be instructional for all people who go armed. We work from 0-110 yards (that is as far as the range permits) and everyone knows what they can do, ‘on demand’ with their G19 Glocks or 2″ J-frames or what ever. Note that only about 5% of the training is at longer distances.
U.S. citizens collectively have an arsenal of hundreds of millions of firearms, probably far more weapons than are contained in all of our “official” military arsenals combined, and many millions of those firearms are handguns. Many hundreds of thousands of citizens–perhaps millions–have concealed carry permits, and tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of them are “carrying” at any particular time yet, there have been no “OK Corral” type gun battles, no slaughter in the streets, no crime sprees, no road rage fueled shootings by permit holders on our highways, as legally armed citizens go peacefully about their lives.
As the saying goes, “when you need a policeman in ten seconds he is only ten minutes away” and these permit holders, by going about their daily lives are, in effect, “patrolling” large portions of our country that cannot and are not patrolled by the thin-stretched police of our civilian law enforcement, and are, therefore, an enormous untapped, low cost resource that could “in effect” multiply our civilian law enforcement resources and their ability to cover more of our country ten fold, and could be a huge deterrent to terrorists. Yet, despite the evidence that armed citizens are extremely responsible about their gun carry and use, they are not utilized but are, rather, hampered at every turn in even trying to exercise their basic Constitutional right—just recently reaffirmed by the Supreme Court– to gun ownership and to self-defense.
As many posters on many different blogs have said, it appears that it will take one or more successful major Muslim terrorist attacks here in the U.S. and perhaps many thousands or tens of thousands of American citizens dead or injured to force our “authorities” out of their current denial and politically correct solutions to Muslim terror and into a much more realistic and effective posture. God grant that they will see the error and danger of their present course before such an attack takes place.
Unfortunately, with this crew, I doubt that without such a tragedy occurring, such a change will happen and, even then, such change will only be very grudging and minimal at best.
Solution? Get rid of our present Clown Car crew and replace them with intelligent, informed, realistic, experienced, and resolute adults who are not blinded and hobbled by ideology and political correctness, but who are relentless in focusing on taking all possible steps to protect us, and the 2012 election is the way to start to clean out the Augean Stables so that such a change is possible. I’m just hoping that we have the luxury of that much time, and that such an attack or attacks does not happen before such a total redirection can be put in place.
I think you, and many others, are mistaken. The first reaction of the politicians and bureaucrats, in the event of a successful terrorist attack in the US involving firearms, even if the firearms are full auto and thus probably illegally imported, will be to increase gun control laws and regulations. And, when those increased laws and regulations fail to have the desired effect, the next reaction will be to increase them both further.
UNLESS we get the first word in. And we are going to have to be LOUD and persistant.
First, I do not believe for one second that our legislators are well-intentioned. They are about control and benefiting themselves.
Second, the holiday warning list of attractive targets just happen to be large gatherings that inherently defy political control and/or regimentation.
Radical analogy?
Sure, but not anywhere near as radical as the ignorance of our anti-gun leaders when it comes to stopping some crazy from slitting their own family members throats so that the blood gushing out paralyzes everyone else with fear.
Really do you think these politicans care about our security? Obamalini
basically said we can take another terrorist hit.
What I want to know is, Where is the outrage over having to get a permit to engage in a Civil Right??? What part of “…shall not be infringed don’t YOU understand???”
Bravo, excellent point. But then agaib, lawyers have since become involved.
Quite honestly, given the way most cops act, I’m much more afraid of them than any armed citizen. Cops can literally get away with murder while an armed citizen is going to use caution before slinging lead.
A government that does not trust its citizens cannot be trusted by its citizens.
Arise, awake, ye sons of liberty!
Those who seek political office and power are not like the ordinary American. They make decisions that are insane on the face of it.
In my city we had a disturbed man with a hand gun and a bullet proof vest enter a city building and killed his estranged wife and several other city employees before police shot him 10 or 15 minutes later. In reaction our city officials heroically swung into action by banning EMPLOYEES from having a weapon on city property or in our private cars in city parking lots.
So yes, even as the author demonstrated, politicians when faced with violent criminals respond by disarming innocent citizens/victims.
Big but rare attacks against civilians will not push politicians to allow more law abiding civilians to carry weapons, they will give a (false) reason to limit this freedom.
To force them to allow more freedom of carry weapons there must be tens or hundreds of small attacks on soft targets (schools, malls, hospitals, etc.) where the police and the other law enforcement agencies will show up their inability to intervene in short order and stop the attackers.
In this case, I bet they would find easier to kick all the suspects in detention centers (like FDR did in the WW2) than allow more weapons to be carried around by citizens.
“The entirely predictable holiday terror warning”
To the United States Government: Keep your idiotic warnings to yourself. I’m paying you government wimps to track down and kill terrorists, not to tell me you can’t get the job done, so I better watch out.
Quit screwing around and wipe them off the face of the planet.
I don’t even want to hear that warning crap, all I want to hear is “U.S. planes bomb Gaza back into stone age” or “Tehran flattened with atomic bombs to solve terrorist problem”, or “Nidal Hasan has been tried and executed because we don’t let Muslim traitor/terrorists kill American soldiers and live to talk about it” and things like that. Go kill terrorists and shut the hell up about everything else.
Muslim terrorists have been murdering Americans for the last 40 years, and baasically getting away with it, while you government turds have been putting most of your energy into stealing everyone’s money for wealth distribution or using the White House as a handy spot to get blow jobs from Demo-whores, and I’m getting sick and damned tired of watching that crap and listening to your asinine warnings.
Get the damn job done, or get the hell out of the way and let somebody who can get the job done do it.
That’s MY Christmas message to you jackasses in Washington.
Dolts.
GO DAVE!
Yes, sir!!!Oh for leaders with the balls and honesty to do these very things!
Ten thumbs up.
Politicians get into power by saying they can do something, and then start saying that they can’t, or they need to keep us from doing something.
Our message to the Islamic world should be simple and straightforward: threaten our civilization and yours is forfeit. Back it up with nuclear dawn over aselected Islamic capitols. Rinse and repeat as necessary, until Allah is worshipped only in hell.
And for you hand-wringers out there, Islam – and that’s Islam entire – is an existential threat to everything you hold dear. You don’t ‘negotiate’ with cancer; you can’t appease disease. You destroy it.
Cities that are CCW inimical, are usually infested by libtards.We should encourage them in their anti CCW stupidity,since they WILL attract terrorist attack, away from conservative zones.The mass killing of libtards by terrorists is an added benefit.
Only problem is, as with any “mass shooting”, they’ll use it as an excuse to call for more gun control…
Remember, they said the incredible violence in Mexico is because redneck states like Texas and Arizona have loose gun laws.
Imagine when the response when Mohamadans shoot up a mall with “legally purchased (!)” assault weapons”
One thing they have in common is that they will be minimized by much of our media. I have in mind more than warnings, the arrest of twelve apostles of peace in London, prior to blowing up the Commons.
Big front page splash in our leading papers ?
Perhaps the only large “crowd kill” that will awaken politicians to the importance of Right to Carry will be a crowd of politicians.
If we all “carry” then the government will feel further justified in creating a “Red Guard” for the benefit of presidential and government officials. Worked for Sadam, Hitler, and numerous other tyrants.
Base your 2012 vote on Secondment amendment rights. The last defense of a free people.
#17 Get a Spine: A “crowd kill” of oppressive politicians was exactly what the second amendment was designed to accomplish (see Jefferson).Such a red guard would provide the cassus belli patriots need, no to mention a target-rich environment.We all need to carry,practice, stay alert,and organize.Think of a” white guard” of freedom,an armed wing of the tea party movement,if you will, as defensive deterrrent.
Excellent post, and right on the money.
As the saying goes, you’re a sheep, a wolf, or a sheepdog. Every day when you walk out the door you make a choice as to which one. Let’s hope more individuals begin choosing the latter of the three.
Greg
National Association for Gun Rights.
With all due respect, Sir, I sincerely wish people would quit using the “sheepdog” illustration, especially in the context of carry permit holders being the “sheepdogs” protecting others.
The carry permit is issued for an individual to defend him/herself … period. That is where s/he should draw the line. BTW, every member of my family carries firearms for self-defense.
Every time I walk out of my door with my firearms, I’m determined to return home safe and sound whatever it takes. Should there be a terrorist attack at the mall, I’ll do my best to retreat, flee from the hostile environment. I’m not going to be a hero.
Should the situation require for me to engage the terrorists or criminals, I’ll not hesitate a moment. Since the military, I’ve taught the gun, competed over 20 years in practical shooting matches all around the world, and I have practiced with the best more times than I can remember.
Yes, I’ve the capacity for violence, but I’ll choose the tactical retreat every time if possible. As things are in our country at the present, getting involved in any shooting is going to be costly and way too much hassle, making the ‘sheepdog’ scenario an asinine choice.
Drawing the gun and firing is absolutely the last option.
Stay safe.
Tim, that’s fine in theory, but this article was talking about a Mumbai-style attack, where you basically had the bad guys walking into a public space with relatively controlled access and crowds of people that were being killed for the sake of killing them. The terrorists weren’t giving a by to the folks who just wanted to leave without getting involved.
From a purely survival point of view, yeah, if you can get away, do so. OTOH, when I see some fella with a weapon of war using it to kill small children one after the other, I imagine I will have a difficult time using the noise as cover for my retreat…
First off, the headline proposes that we law-abiding gun-owners are forbidden to carry to most places where the terror attacks are likely to occur: “The document suggests that terrorists may consider public gatherings like “sporting events, parades, religious and cultural activities” to be attractive targets.”
I suggest that this is not correct in my post.
Second: I’ve actually been in the hotel in Mumbai (I lived in India for 3 years), and it’s not a “public space with relatively controlled access.” The problem was that it took the Indian cops three days to deal with the issue; i.e. go inside and kill the SOPs.
Third: The children! Of course, think of the children. Is that your argument – really – opposing my reality of trying to survive a terror attack as an civilian CCW licensee? Now I’m a coward?
Good luck with the hero sheepdog thing.
Tim,
My comment was in relation to this post. As pointed out by Caestal, there may be a situation where “tactical retreat” is not an option. If others’ lives are being taken (see Columbine, Virginia Tech, et al), then yes, I will attempt to stop the attacker.
This is all situational dependent, of course, and can be argued ad naseum. However, in relation to active shooters wantonly taking lives, my use of the “sheep dog analogy” still stands as viable.
Greg
National Association for Gun Rights.
Tim, this is completely untrue in my state, Florida. “The carry permit is issued for an individual to defend him/herself … period.”
Protecting innocent others under deadly attack is legal reason to fire.
FB: “Protecting innocent others under deadly attack is legal reason to fire.”
Yes, you can, according to the law, “protect” others from harm, but you do expose yourself to the fire from cops responding to the incident, other eager sheepdogs, the DA and, of course the national past time: lawsuit by the dude you shot and the potential bystanders you accidentally hit. Good luck with that.
Those who run towards to gunfire, for example at a mall, are called “sheepdogs” by the sheepdog ‘heroes’ themselves. I’ve been in too many incidents to comprehend that one needs to retreat to the opposite direction if possible.
When forced to draw the gun and protect myself, I’ll do it without hesitation damn the consequences. I’ve been there, done that. How about you?
In Florida you’ve got your “Stand Your Ground” law. In my state I’m supposed to retreat. Capishe?
@Greg You keep on sheepdoging. I wish you all the best.
Merry Christmas.
“When forced to draw the gun and protect myself, I’ll do it without hesitation damn the consequences. I’ve been there, done that. How about you?”
I’ve never been in a gunfight, if that is what you are asking me, Tim. Everybody who has been in one could have said the same thing before they got into their first one. I can’t judge the veracity of claims made by blog commenters. Capishe? If you have been a good guy in a gunfight, thanks for your service.
@FB Since I’m unable to reply to your post, I’m replying to my own.
My point, Mr. Beloit, was to point out the difference between your and my state. I’ve to retreat if possible for the shoot to be legal. Still the case – every shoot – goes for the jury to decide.
That said, I’d retreat regardless if that was possible. My first priority is my own and my family’s survival. That is why I carry firearms.
There are way too may variables when the manure hits the fan to start running towards the sound of the shots, of which least is not the fact that cops will target anyone out of uniform holding a gun, you don’t know for sure who the good guys are (in most cases fights are between criminals), etc. To risk the consequences on behalf of a stranger, when you don’t know what’s going on, will never be worth it. The minimum you have to pay to get out of trouble is $15 to 20,000 if the shoot is legal.
I base this on my own experience; thus, been there, done that. I’ve had to draw my firearms several times in civilian life including those instances I did not need to squeeze the trigger. My intention was not to brag or challenge you in any way – I’m sorry and I apologize.
If it ever comes down to saving a child or fellow American from a terrorist, I’ll take the necessary action.
Other than that, I’ll stay out of trouble to live another day.
Everybody has their own decisions to make, and most of the time there is no time to think. I sincerely wish people practice that fact in mind.
It could of interest for you to read these: http://www.humanevents.com/search.php?author_name=Ernest Emerson
Stay safe and Merry Christmas.
Tim,
A woman at a church in Colorado Springs engaged an armed assailant — and prevented what would have most likely been a significant amount of death — when she could have just as easily retreated. Guess she shouldn’t have been a “sheepdog,” eh?
And keep on flaunting your resume on internet chat forums. Let us know how that works for you and who buys into it. We wish you the best of luck.
Mr. Twisted
A Twisted Sense of Funny
Mr. Twisted, Jeanne Assam was an armed security guard at the church and a cop and she did good. How is that going the change the fact that CCW holders are not the sheepdogs some of you want to think you’re. Who is the twisted here?
Mr. Twisted, as far as I know, this is the only forum I participate in. So far I’ve divulged that I’ve been in the military, carry 24/7, participated in the practical shooting competitions for years and practiced with the best, including the Israeli Border Patrol.
Quote few here have done the same and more. I’m sorry it pisses you off. I could not care less whether you believe a word I write.
Now, what is the handle you usually write under, Mr. Twisted.
Merry Christmas and stay safe.
Thanks, Tim. Stay on the right side of the road and merry Christmas.
Tim,
She was a security guard, eh? Oh gee, wow, I mean, uhh… well that changes everything…. Oh wait, except that it doesn’t. Exactly what *special* training to security guards undergo that the average citizen cannot? And being a former police officer helps…how? Like average military training, it is woefully inadequate unless the individual takes it upon themselves to better their skill set. Whether or not Miss Assam did that is irrelevant; what is important is that she didn’t “tactically retreat” when a threat presented itself.
As to your experience, my point is, why include it? Obviously you *do* care if I believe what you write, or you wouldn’t include — in every comment you’ve made — a comment about how amazingly experienced you are (“been there, done that” I believe was one, “taught the gun” was another, as I remember. And now again with your reply). Good heavens, why would it piss me off? I think it’s humorous.
Who cares what “handle” I write under? Mr. Twisted, the name I have associated with my blog (linked under my name), has been one that I have used for over 5 years because it has a certain meaning and, as the evidence shows, gets under people’s skin.
The CCW holders are forgetting something available to everyone.
SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
In a line up in my airport (a big US one); a shopping mall; a packed restaurant I am scanning, looking. I sit with my back to wall and with a view of the exits.
Sure, I can avoid obvious problem areas by, for example, buying stuff online, renting videos rather than going to a cinema, avoiding large public gatherings. I attend an under-the-radar synagogue rather than the local big one.
Are these behavioral changes a concession to the threat of the terrorism? No. I have other reasons for these habits.
TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS.
If you are in a line up and you feel very odd about something, leave. GET If something happens you’ll be safe. Don’t worry about feeling stupid. Remember that some of the 9/11 bombers were spotted by an American Israeli getting on the feeder plane to Boston. This lady had because of her training strong instincts and good situational awareness.
The CCW advocates here are forgetting about the one defense available to everyone.
SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
If you see something very odd, LISTEN TO YOUR INNER VOICE.
Get out of there!!!!
Scan. All the time. Look around. Pick out the odd things — the out of place people who betray their intent in the cues from their body language.
At worst, you may see a shop lifter.
But perhaps you may save yourself from something much worse.
Lots of good points. It is most likley that any commando style attack will use rifles, making pistol holders the most likley good guys. Unfortunatly is also high probably that such an attack, even if succesfully thwarted or only cut short by CCW holders the official response will be an attempt to clamp down on weapons anywhere…think federally funded metal detectors at mall entrances. Another issue is training. I know only for sure that Colorado and Texas have (what I consider) to be lax training standards… enough to inform you of your legal obligations and not shoot yourself in the foot but hardly adequate to act in a high threat situation where there may be crowds..though both states and Im sure others have many fine schools where you can get good training.
I also recomend readin Teeth of the Tiger by Tom Clancy. It deals with severl commando raids on shopping malls perpetrated by Islamic terrorists who were smuggled in through Arizona. One even is cut short by two men carrying in a Virginia mall.
Robert,
To address your point about training, why would the training standards of other states magically make a difference? What passes for “training” in CCW classes is an utter joke — as is that of most law enforcement agencies — which is why we are pushing for Constitutional Carry (and that addresses your point about Colorado and Texas — Alaska, Arizona and Vermont have zero requirements).
I agree that training is absolutely important. However, it is incumbent upon the individual to ensure they are properly trained — not the state.
National Association for Gun Rights.
Greg,(and Robert too)
I believe in the need for good training, and I try to provide just that. But its a slippery slope when the Government REQUIRES some level of “training” that THEY approve of, for someone to execise their RIGHT.
I dont think there are any easy answers, the Constitution isnt magic. There are ligitimate safety concerns about allowing everyone total “un-infringed” right to carry with NO training whatsoever, as well a VERY uncomfortable intrusion from the idea of government required training.
Tough nut to crack. People “should” be responsible enough to learn to shoot safely, but how do you “encourage” that without infringing on their rights to decide for themselves?
I dont know, I wish there was more honest dialog on that without decending into “pro” and “anti” gun camps.
Any ideas?
Right now Islamic terrorist cells are using Mexico as a staging area for attacks on America,..
I know that it is a common perception away from the border states that Mexico is a chaotic place in which anyone can just waltz into the country and then waltz across the US border but that is not actually the case. In fact, Mexico is highly mis-organized. Everyone, from the oligarchs, to the drug lords to the poorest wannabe illegal immigrant has to operate within a fairly large scale patronage network that monitors and restricts their behavior. Anyone who takes action to the detriment of their patronage network is dealt with severely.
The Mexican side of the border is porous not because they can’t seal it from their side but because no one in Mexico wants to. Everyone in Mexico, without exception, has an incentive to keep the border as open as possible. Illegal trade with America, whether remittance from illegal immigrants or drug money are the major sources of Mexico’s foreign exchange and no one wants to jeopardize that much money.
Likewise everyone in Mexico from the poorest to the richest, from the law-abiding to the criminal knows that any terrorist attack originating in Mexico could cause the US to seal the border and end the gravy train. As a result, the US-Mexico border is vigorously defending by the Mexican authorities, the poor of Mexico and the drug lords. Any terrorist who tried to transit through Mexico would be discovered by someone and would end up in an anonymous grave.
As evidence of this, in the last 15 years, around 30 terrorist have transited to the US from Canada while in the same period zero have transited through Mexico. Enlightened self-interest enforced by patronage networks have proven a better border defense than uncorrupt and organized Canadians.
Shannon Love in this is right. In the past years al Qaeda had tried to hit the US with poisoned drugs (cocaine). But to do this they needed the cooperation of drug lords and drug smugglers. It is know that they simply leaked the infos about the al Qaeda emissary to the US law enforcers and had him arrested.
The Drug commerce with Mexico is worth ten billions US $ per year at least. No one want this river of $$$ to stop cold.
The Mexico drug lords are in for the money, like Wall Street executives. And they take menaces to the flow of drugs and money very seriously. It is they money and it is their drugs at stake here.
In my state the weapon must be fully concealed for me to comply with my permit to carry it. The instant that I display it, then the liability is upon me to justify that display under a section that prohibits “brandishing”. I accept this.
However, those who defend the right of private property owners to control access fail to properly delineate public attributes from private ones. If instead of a concealed deadly weapon I carried a concealed deadly virus, under the same logic, a property owner should be able to prohibit HIV carriers from entering his property.
The delineation that must be made is the same one the law makes. I cannot display my concealed firearm except in circumstances where the law recognizes I must use deadly force to protect the life of myself or others. Thus as long as the firearm is fully concealed, it is none of the property owner’s business, just as it is none of his business if I am carrying HIV. Both are issues of personal privacy and sovereignty.
Good points, but too often the draconian level of State Terror upon CCW holders is such that every innocent “reveal” is a criminal act.
No one should need fear using a public rest room, in which an innocent “flash” while adjusting your self, (which, incidentally, involves looking in the mirror to see if anything “shows” and fixing it) can send you to jail.
There is a reasonable difference between out and out “brandishing” a weapon, and having your fly down. Sometimes there is static cling when I remove my outer winter garment, and it “sticks” to my vest for a second, revaling the bottom of a holster for a split second “flash” untill I smooth it out.
I should not go to jail, loose my permit, or be SHOT BY THE POLICE when such commonplace, impossible to prevent, dare I say “normal” incidental things occur from time to time while stooping, reaching, or getting in and out of a vehicle.
The irrational fear and hypersensitivity people (and the state) have regarding firearms carried as a normal part of your life, is unwarented, IMHO.
“Virtually every public place that a terrorist might find an attractive target has been made into a softer target by well-intentioned but short-sighted legislators.”
And perhaps they are not well intentioned at all, but are seeking personal gain in doing so. Unless people think the deciders have to personally sacrifice something when they change the law to suit themselves?
Like Feinstein, she was fine with getting a concealed permit and getting a gun when she thought it was useful to her. Of course, she did her hardest to ensure nobody else in her city of SF could get one and use it. Are these people going to be excused on the basis that they honestly and sincerely believe limiting guns will reduce crime and violence? Or is it just that it depends. It depends on how much it benefits them.
“Right now Islamic terrorist cells are using Mexico as a staging area for attacks on America, trading their expertise in violence for the protection of Mexican drug cartels.”
I wonder what took them so long. Language barrier? Mexican racism against non Mexicans? Lack of money? Too much time and resources and manpower invested in Iraq/Afghanistan?
“Our borders, kept intentionally porous by cynical politicians”
What happened to those “good intentions”? If people can intentionally do such, why not all the rest as well.
“An open war is being waged on our southern border and is largely ignored by our media”
Isn’t the media full of good intentions though?
“The Mumbai attack was launched by just ten men so ferocious that days later the media was still reporting as many as 60 attackers.”
What did you expect. Inexperienced scouts always inflate the enemy numbers by 2 or 3 times. You’re lucky if they are accurate to within 1 order of magnitude of the real numbers. 10,000 vs 100,000.
“Thanks to our porous border and feckless politicians, it is all but assured that a similar band of terrorists will eventually slip across our borders undetected with whatever munitions they can carry and launch equally lethal attacks.”
And if/when this happens, there’ll be more gun laws because that’ll “make the system work” As Janie Napolie said. It works. The system works.
An armed society is a polite society.
It is preferable to be judged by twelve as opposed to being carried by six.
The truth is that ALL the terrorist hype is way overblown into an excuse to take our liberties away. People debate about the “tradeoff between liberty and safety” but the truth is that there shouldn’t even be a debate because there isn’t a statistically serious terrorist threat. Terrorists killed about 3000 people on 9/11/01. In comparison 40,000 people die in traffic accidents EVERY YEAR in this country for an average of about 3000 a month. So in a given decade we could expect terrorists to kill about as many people as car wrecks do in a month. Citizens foiled the shoe and underwear bomber, as the article points out they’re a lot more likely to stop the next scheme. Anybody who doubts the degree of freedom we’ve had taken from us in the name of protecting us from the bogyman should google: “Z-backscater van”. I fear the response to terrorism infinitely more than the terrorism itself.
I’ll add another issue to the list- I can’t buy a gun because I have no place to store it since my apartment prohibits the storage of firearms on site.
So the apartment managers regularly search your apartment for guns? Or do they have metal detectors at your door?
By the way, Israel is pretty safe, but I think it is more that we simply have fewer violent criminals.
It’s called concealed carry for a reason. Conceal your gun and dont let anyone know about it. Defend yourself. I would rather be facing charges of carrying a concealed weapon than be defenseless or dead. At least you would be alive to face the charges.
If caught is a moon god worshiping attack like Mumbi, you have no choice but to assualt through. Your heart will tell you to run, but your brain must force you to distract, rush, kill, take weapon, and assualt through again. Do so until you are dead, or have won.
With an AK one can engauge from a distance. Shot slow, and watch your breathing. Aim centermass.
A moon god worshiper being attacked, may be caught off guard, as he was not trained for the above. Moon god worshipers shooting with AK’s may not be as great a shot as they think themselves.
Easy to write, hard to do.
BZO, or Die!
The whole concept of a “concealed carry permit” is a violation of “the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.”
If you are referring to being armed, the term is not “going healed,” as you have it, but “going heeled.”
I love your decision to use the semi-archaic term, but get it right.
I own a .357 magnum revolver but I have avoided getting a concealed carry permit. Too afraid of being charged, of getting sued, accidentally shooting a bystander, etc.
However, watching video of that jerk who spray painted the V on a wall and held a roomfull of people hostage has made me reconsider. The tipping point was when the shooter raised his weapon and one of the hostages said, “Please don’t.”
Among other things, I carry a SIG 229 in .40. I was once asked by someone why I carry a a weapon. The exact question was, “What do you need a gun for?”
My response was, “When bad people do bad things, who’s going to stop them? You?”
The guy said, “Well what about the police? Isn’t that THEIR job?”
To which I replied, “Take a look around. See one? When bad things start to happen, most of the time, you won’t even have time to dial 911 on your cell phone, much less explain what’s going on. Fact is, the police usually arrive after the event, not before. For the victim, that’s a little too late.”
That shut him up.
Good for you, Mike.
Most CCW classes don’t teach much, so I suggest that you make sure you’re ready should you ever have to draw that .357 of yours. Study your state’s law and consult an attorney. I’ve got three n my speed dial.
The next step then is to figure out if that .357 is the carry gun or if you need a BUG. I usually carry a .45 with two BUGs.
And, you’re correct, you’ll most probably be sued and charged regardless depending of the state you live in.
Stay safe and Merry Christmas.
Dave is the man!! Just close the Mexican border and nuke the Muslim terrorists.
An armed society is a polite society.
Semper Paratus
It is heartening to read the citizen’s posts here. Through mindset, preparation, and training, we will survive. Sheeple, who live in unwitting denial, happily sipping the MSM kool aid, will remain subjects and victims. Ward Dorrity’s example, guiding the herd to reality and light, is something we all must follow. We don’t have to be sheepdogs, but rather shepards, our brother’s keepers, loving our neighbors, and ready to defend ourselves, our families, our community, and our nation under God.
I am glad to hear some of what has been written here, while scared to hear others.
The simple fact is nobody knows how they are going to act in such a situation. Those with training have a better chance than those without training is true. But even those trained, even those who have gone through something before, can not be certain of how they will react.
I have an idea of what I would do in a situation like Mumbai, but I can not say that I would do specific things and be 100% certain that I will. Adrenaline is a strange thing and each reaction is different from the last time effected.
I agree with the advice given to get out of dodge if at all possible. Only use your weapon if you have no other choice. You’ll know when you have no other choice. Until then, keep your head down, but your eyes wide open and stay alert.
NYS does not restrict carry anywhere except schools, courthouses and prisons. I am not talking about NYC, which is run by Communists who infiltrated and took over the NYC government successfully by about 1965. But let’s stay in NYS. I have a concealed carry permit and I carry everywhere. Malls, downtown White Plains, all the towns and villages of the state I visit, stores, restaurants, bars, etc.
If NYC adopted NYS laws, it would be great. Fat chance. But as an example of how effective the laws of NYS are outside of the city, where I live, in White Plains, there are many concealed carry holders and gun nuts. We don’t generally lock our doors. The police don’t have much to do. But as with other things in my state, we are so afraid to trumpet the success of gun ownership, that we shut up and enjoy it.