Watching Egypt Burn: An Israeli Perspective
Now, there is suddenly the possibility — just the possibility — that things really are changing. No one in Israel was prepared for this, and no one has really processed it in any meaningful way. At the moment, it may be impossible to do so. No one knows what is going to happen over the next few days. Mubarak may not fall in the end, which means Israel will have to continue dealing with him and it would be best not to get on his bad side by sympathizing with his opposition. But there is now a very strong possibility that Mubarak will fall, in which case Israel will be facing a new Egyptian government, one that will be very very different from the regime that has ruled the country since the Free Officers overthrew King Farouk in 1952.
At the moment, most Israeli commentators are considering the nightmare scenarios. This is understandable. Pessimism is always the smartest attitude to take in the Middle East, and previous revolutions in the Arab world have tended to have rather nasty outcomes for Israel. Ever since the Yom Kippur war in 1973, Israel’s leaders have tried to err on the side of the worst case scenario. In this case, that would be the takeover of Egypt by the Muslim Brotherhood or a coalition of radical Islamic parties. Such a government might well abrogate the 1978 peace treaty, removing a cornerstone of regional stability and of Israeli defense strategy. Another war, much worse than anything since 1973, might follow. Even worse, a domino effect could follow, leaving Israel essentially alone against a Middle East that has been given over entirely to the totalitarian fantasies of radical Islam.
A secular, even democratic government, however, could present its own problems. It could prove to be equally hostile to Israel, given the massive popular sentiment against the Jewish state on the Arab street. It could also take a far more active role in pressuring Israel on behalf of the Palestinians, in whom Mubarak was always largely uninterested. Where Mubarak merely made gestures toward solidarity with the Palestinians, a new secular government could well make the issue one of its primary concerns; if only to shore up its legitimacy at home and in the Arab world at large.
Most important, however, is the simple fact that such a government, unlike Mubarak, will be an essentially unknown quantity. And should it prove to be even a vaguely liberal or democratic government, it will also be something for which Israel is completely unprepared. Israel has never had to deal with an Arab country that is similar in governance to itself. It may well take us some time — and time will be of the essence — to figure out how to respond to it. In many ways, real peace can be as traumatizing as war; it presents political, cultural, economic, and intellectual challenges that can be surprisingly daunting. No one should be shocked if, in the event of a best case scenario in Egypt, Israel spends some time in a state of more or less complete confusion.
It must be said, however, that the pictures now coming out of Egypt are as intoxicating for us as they appear to be to the rest of the world. We may have made peace with the Egyptian dictatorship, but we have never forgotten what it is. And if Mubarak never really warmed to us, we never really warmed to him either. No one will be personally sorry to see him go. And one cannot help but sympathize with the intensity of hope at work on the streets of Cairo. We would like to believe that, beneath the longstanding enmity between Israel and the Arabs, the hopes of the protestors are not unlike our own: We hope for a different and better Arab world. Whether that is, in fact, what is to come, they and we do not — cannot know at this moment.
I think this is going to be a really bad outcome. Remember when Sadat was killed? Look what happened there……. This is what will happen with Egypt as well. Beware. This does not look good.
Everything comes from G-d and G-d is good.
Let’s try to be a little positive here.
delll,
When Rabbi Akiva saw foxes walking where the Holy of Holies used to be, after the Romans had destroyed the Temple, he laughed. “Why are you laughing?!” asked him his fellow sages, barely able to stop their tears. He answered: “As I have seen the first prophecies come true, I now know the last ones will come true also.” They replied: “You have consoled us, Rabbi Akiva, you have consoled us!”
It brings me no joy to contemplate the looming encirclement of Israel; however, I can console myself in the reassurance, the strengthening of faith it brings me. HaShem is in control, and He is maneuvering things so they will be that way. And in the end: Greater will be HaShem’s show of power than it was in the original deliverance from Egypt! Deliver us speedily, Ribbono Shel Olam, amen. And every knee shall to thee bow, and every tongue shall to thee swear, and every created thing will know that thou hast created it, and thou wilt speedily reign, thou alone! (That’s what Jews say every Rosh Ha-Shanah, every year when the entire world is brought before HaShem’s judgment.)
Beautiful.
America is standing with you, and hoping for a stable outcome.
I often refer to Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39, because it seems to me that they contain a notable prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled. The chapters describe a situation in which Russia and Persia go up against Israel, and are turned back by an earthquake. As a result, of course, Israel is saved, her enemies mouthes are shut, and it becomes very hard for any thinking person to deny that God has favored Israel.
I know of no major earthquake in history yet in this geographic area, especially connected with a battle. Is this a prophecy that we can expect to be fulfilled in the future, according to Jewish scholarship?
ElisaPardo,
Maimonides says of the War of Gog and Magog prophesied in Ezekiel, that the verses describing them are not to be interpreted, and that no ruling for action is to be derived from them; he says that this particular prophecy was brought simply for people to watch as it is happening and be filled with faith by watching it. Therefore, all the interpretations concerning this country or other or specific events such as earthquakes must be discounted.
I have no idea if the current events in Egypt have any connection with Ezekiel’s prophecy; they fill me with faith regardless, because arranging all the events (Obama’s presidency, the capture of Lebanon by Hezbollah, and so forth) such that Israel is encircled by enemies can only be HaShem’s explicit doing. My only real fear is the price to be paid before the deliverance comes.
Regarding the foxes, could you explain the reference for your non-Jewish friends? I don’t recognize it. Thanks!
Person! There is prophecy in Micah, 3:12 which says: “Therefore, because of you Zion will become a ploughed field, Jerusalem a heap of ruins and the Temple Mount, rough moorland.” R. Akiba connected that in some way to Uriah the Priest in ch. 8 of Isaiah. Then he looked at the prophecy of Zechariah in 8:4: “These are the words of the Lord of Hosts: Once again old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each leaning on a stick because of great age; and the streets of city will be full of boys and girls at play.”
When R. Akiba saw the foxes clamber over the now ploughed field that had been the Temple, he said something along the following lines: I feared that the prophecy of Zechariah would not be fulfilled; but now that I see that the prophecy of Uriah (or Micah) fulfilled, I know the prophecy of Zechariah will be fulfilled, and so R. Akiba laughed. I wonder if he would have laughed had he known that it would take about 1900 nightmarish years for the prophecy to be partly fulfilled.
As for the goings-on in Egypt, I am with the more pessimistic crowd, and I agree with Yair about William Kristol. After Palin, my vote is for the man with the moustache.
I meant to add: Al tismokh al ha’ness (don’t depend on miracles); or as Christians would say: Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
Providence will have its way
No matter what men do or say.
Al Tirah – DO NOT FEAR…I say this every day in order to keep my courage in these dark days:
Do not fear sudden terror, nor the destruction of the wicked when it comes.
Contrive a scheme, but it will be foiled; conspire a plot, but it will not materialize, for G-d is with us
To your old age I am [with you]; to your hoary years I will sustain you; I have made you, and I will carry you; I will sustain you and deliver you.
No change is a good change for Israel. If you want to see what change means in the Middle East look at Lebonan or Iran. The Moslem Brotherhood has already positioned itself as the strongest party in Egypt. It is well organized and just waiting to move. That move will come when Mubarak is toppled. Israel now faces a prospect of having to deal with a front line as long as its border with Egypt. It is essentially back in the same position it was before the 67 war with nothing gained except a few years of tenuous peace.
“protesters are talking about democracy and freedom”.
It must never be forgotten that some of the words Muslims use have a totally different meaning for them than they do for non-Muslims. In a recent poll, over 70% of Egyptians declared they want to live under Islamic sharia law. Statements will also be made for propaganda purposes.
For example, in Islam, a “peace agreement” signed with a non-Muslim nation is merely a TEMPORARY CEASE FIRE. Founder of Islam, huge slave trader, Mohammad, is the role model for this war strategy. Peace agreements are signed until such time as Muslims become strong enough to attack, conquer and destroy a hated infidel nation.
Egyptian protesters promise to destroy Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWcKewmyh_o&feature=player_embedded
Tiny Israel won the war, but foolishly surrendered to attacker, Egypt, the strategic Sinai, the oil fields Israel developed, and beautiful Sharm el Sheikh. Israel, a victim of war who won against her aggressor, surrendered. The attacker will indeed, attack again.
I agree Linda. Just like U Thant’s UN Peacekeepers were ordered out of the Sinai by Nasser, so will the two contingents of US forces (lightly armed) — probably hardly anybody even knows they are there!.
In any case, I don’t see the US doing anything different than U Thant. And upon pullout, the MB government will start to roll tanks into the Sinai — this will break the peace agreement via a measurable, overt action (since actually the MB has already declared umpteen times that the first thing they will do is rip up that agreement — but that alone may not satisfy a causus belli). However this armored movement by “the new Egypt” will be a bona fide causus belli — allowing Israel then to swiftly attack and take BACK the Sinai.
I only hope that this time they do not fritter it away for a piece of paper. Although it could be argued that the 3 decades Israel did not have to field an army on it’s southern border, allowed it the extra economic capital to reach the wonderful heights of enterprise and attraction of investment that they have recently in the past decade.
“And should it prove to be even a vaguely liberal or democratic government, it will also be something for which Israel is completely unprepared.”
I would not get to wound up about that democratic outcome. Better to stick to the Muslim Brotherhood scenario. Don’t waste your time on those conjectures. “Be Prepared”- Boy Scout manuel #253-B.
Several sites, including world media, are reporting the fact that the U.S. is behind the riots in Egypt. It appears the administration want to replace U.S. ally, Mubarak, with the Muslim Brotherhood.
On a ynetnews.com article, “Clinton: Egypt must transition to democracy”
Clinton deceives. She knows democracy is NOT part of Islam.
As Clinton/Obama well know, Muslims DON’T want democracy. A large percent of Muslims who have immigrated to Western countries declare they want Islamic sharia law implemented in our countries – NO democracy.
If Mubarak’s government is brought down, although his government is corrupt, the consequences will be horrendous. The Muslim Brotherhood are ready to take control of the country. The results will most likely be the same as the cruel Mullahs’ control of Iran. The suffering of the good people of Iran is enormous. Who can ever forget President Jimmy Carter’s betrayal of our ally, the Shah of Iran? As an Iranian once told me, when the Shah ruled Iran, “those were the good old days”.
Intensely hated infidel nations, Israel and America, will be the top targets of a Muslim Brotherhood-ruled Egypt.
Muslim Brotherhood Wants War With Israel
Forex Bits | Yohay | January 31, 2011 2:54 pm GMT
Mohamed Ghanem, one of the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, calls Egypt to stop pumping gas to Israel and prepare the Egyptian army for a war with it’s eastern neighbor.
http://www.forexcrunch.com/muslim-brotherhood-wants-war-with-israel/
well seeing as how the muslim brotherhood has rejected the new cabinet and instructed people to remain on the streets thus finally showing the true face of what/who is behind this “revolution” i think israel’s worse nightmare is about to come true
Unless the mohammedan world rids itself of mohammedanism, Israel can never expect peace with any of its members and should prepare for the worst case scenarios. After all, hatred of Jews in that political ideology masquerading as a religion, which goes by the name of islam, has absolutely nothing to do with the state of Israel per se (as your average leftist pundit, British MP or dhimmi apologist like John Esposito will tell you), as the following cornerstone of mohammedan so-called “sacred texts” can attest:
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Sahih Muslim 6985)
Perhaps nothing better than another Six-Day-War-like defeat to start making the black-cube-worshipping world have doubts about whether or not allah, muhammad’s imaginary alter-ego, is on their side, or even exists at all.
We’re next folks, best get ready, for a change.
The writer, unfortunately, is not describing the same Israel I live in. People are full of well-founded fear about what’s happening in Egypt. They know the Mubarak regime, with all its severe faults, is the best one can hope for because it’s Western-aligned and maintains the nonbelligerency with Israel. They know the populace is largely Islamist and the only coherent force truly challenging the regime is the Islamists. That’s why the Israeli govt. is trying to get Obama and other Western leaders to back Mubarak and keep him from falling. I’ve rarely seen Israel as united as it currently is in understanding these things. There are very few illusions about Egyptian “democracy” suddenly sprouting. Middle Eastern “democracy” leads to horrific sectarian warfare in Iraq, Hezbollah rule in Lebanon, Hamas rule in Gaza. Egypt will be no better if it comes to that.
as a fellow israeli i must agree with joel. God only knows in what parallel universe the writer lives. It’s also true that this is the first time in years i’ve witnessed such a broad consensus in the country (even in the traditionally mushy liberal press). watching fox news this week i wanted to strangle bil kristol and the likes, rejoicing that the “freedom agenda” has finally proved itself (i mean obama signing on is a sure sign of success isn’t it?)….. god i wish more people in the administration and the press were thinking more like john Bolton (one of the few commentators who actually gets how potentially bad this is for everyone). i have to wonder if people reacted this foolishly during the iranian revolution? if anyone’s old enough to have witnessed it i’d appreciate an answer to my ponderings. .
There is one ray of light – and that is if Suleiman can secure the dictatorship (or whatever word you’d like to use). Israel has had many reasonable-to-good dealings with him in the past. He’s always come off as a professional, not a crazed Muslim anti-Semite.
He’s an ardent anti-MB and anti-Hamas man. He comes from the Intelligence world and thus knows the value of Israel’s sharing of info with him in the many times — especially recently, like when Hezbollah sent a groups down to cause havoc — when he/Egypt needed it the most. I think he feels he can trust Israel to an extent (far more than can be said for the MB!).
I obviously can’t go as far as saying “I trust Suleiman,” but he’s certainly a safer bet than the MB or that puffball figurehead El Baradei — who will have his neck figuratively cut by the MB upon assuming “power.”
yair: Yes they most certainly reacted just as foolishly–in fact there was even more idiocy at this stage in the Iranian catastrophe. It is early in the game at the moment, however, so there is still plenty of time to catch up so far as nincompoop goes. Certainly we cannot expect anything even resembling competence out of Hillary.
I think the real issue is whether or not this is just the usual bubbling or if it has been planned or at least encouraged.
One thing is certain: All the good that GWB and the WOT accomplished is now being thoroughly undone. Makes one wonder.
We could be witnessing the beginnings of a new World War. It is one that we may not win. Our current elites are as clueless on the threshold of this catastrophe as the “Congress of Europe” was on the eve of WW1.
The the last threads of the post WW2 order is being undone.
It was the end for Mubarak as soon as he fired a couple of ministers and hired new ones. Such will not satisfy the mob; now that they know he can pushed they will push more. Mubarak has little time left.
Also, Sky News is reporting that the Egyptian Army has publicly announced it will not fire on the crowds and has even pulled its tanks back out of the Cairo square.
The Army was Mubarak’s last card to play; if they won’t fire when ordered to they also won’t support him when the crowd shows up at the palace for his head.
Mubarak has a week at most to get on a plane for an undisclosed location.
How will it affect Israel? Depends on who takes over. The Muslim Brotherhood will need time to consolidate its position and co-opt the opposing democratic forces. It will also need a little time to crack down on non-muslim elements of the population. I anticipate several large atrocities against the Copts, blamed on either rogue elements of the old regime or on leprechauns, whichever is the better for demonizing them. Once they have a hold on things Israel will be in the gunsights. A flood of weapons into the Gaza strip is an obvious move, and probably a number of “volunteers” will show up to help Hamas. An increased number of bombings and incidents will occur, as will increased Egyptian rhetoric about “Palestinian” rights and such. This is the most likely one.
On the other hand, if the “democratic” forces take over Egypt, I would still expect old scores to be settled against the Copts and to see more weapons moving into Gaza. Basically, the same scenario as the Brotherhood taking over but would take longer since the “deomcratic” forces are less organized.
On the third hand, if the military takes over the situation will stay pretty much where it is now. Thats the least likely one though.
Who can be surprised that the jihadies choose to strike when the one who occupies the white house promises to “stand by” the muslims and goes out of his way to alienate allies like Israel and Britain?
Soon the leftist media in the US will begin fretting about this hurting his re-election chances, since that is ALL that matters to them.
Israel is on her own now, and every resident should make it clear to US Jews who voted for this POS that Israel’s blood is on their hands.
Look on there bright side – when the shooting starts in Israel – maybe all of the lefty obamabots – like rahm emmanuel – will move back to where their heart truly lies
please go – and take all leftist hollywood and NY artists and financiers with you – what an irony – all of the obama supporters giving up blood and treasure for their cousins in israel to save them from what the leftist wetdream they put into office.
My finger was squarely on the pulse of middle east politics during the waning days of the Shah’s rule in Iran. I was in the Navy’s version of the intelligence business at the time (and stayed so until after the end of the Iraq/Iran war).
I try to live my life as an optimist, in general. But my experience has tempered that optimism.
My hands on experience with middle eastern politics, while admittedly limited, causes me great concern with the current situation going on in Egypt, putting me into a glass half-empty mindset.
In addition , the overwhelming feelings of deja vu I am getting from observing the actions of our current administration hearken back to the days of Carter and his (and his advisors) inept handling of Iran.
I fully support our brothers in Israel, and wish them nothing but the best. But if asked my opinion by them, I could only reply:
Be nervous. Be VERY nervous.
Nothing is ever so bad that it can’t get worse.
my advise ..plan for war.
here is an excellent take on it from a Canadian blog.
http://www.galganov.com/editorials/1-31-2011/barack-obama-and-egypt/carter-the-shah–obama-mubarak/
sure things could possibly be better. but the odds and evidence don’t support anything being better unless you are a hard core islamist.
the muslim brotherhood have positioned themselves to take over …under the image of a “so called moderate” el baradei.
initially people will fawn all over the new government and how the brought law and order back to egypt. you will not hear about the killings and those who will inevitably “disappear”.
No reason to be optimistic, Benjamin. And no reason to expect the end, either. We are strong enough to deal with all of this, if we are resolved. Take care.
Agree, there is no good outcome of this, at the same time there no need to panic either. everything happens for a reason, I truly believe at the end Israel will be the winner again.
The only Democratic vote the Egyptian majority wants is the Right to vote in Islamic Shari’a. And we all know that after that, Democracy is dead in that country. Shari’a and Democracy are antithetical to one another.
Israelis will take care and G.d forbid,if needed,the vast expanses of the Sinai will be useful ………..
Agree 100%
If it comes down to it, Sharm el-Sheikh can finally be changed back to Ofira and places like Yamit can be rebuilt once more.
You are still in fantasy land. The Brotherhood WILL take over and its already calling for war with Israel. Trust God, look at the Psalm 83 prophecy and get ready to pre-emptively defeat all your contiguous neighbors.
Scott — you’re absolutely right. The only question however that remains is one of time. Will what you describe happen
– now
– 5 years from now
– or 10 years from now
Either way though, you are dead on correct that it WILL happen. If Suleiman gets hold of the reigns, he could push it off for another decade. Suleiman is a tough, professional, anti-MB, and-Hamas Intelligence man. He won’t screw around. He;ll quickly consolidate power. But, eventually, he’ll die too.
The American government is not naive. The man in the White House is one with the enemy. The goal of the destruction of Israel is only a first step to the main goal which is the destruction of the United States.
Ayers, Wright, Farrakhan, and Obama are rejoicing as their world vision emerges.
Thanks, friend.
If I sounded a little hysterical in the post you refer to, especially in contrast with my more optimistic other post, it’s because the Jewish Sages have cautioned not to rely on a miracle. Not that miracles can’t happen, just that they’re not to be part of one’s planning for the future. I’m dreading this turn of events, and the suffering it portends, while at the same time consoling myself that the same events are solid evidence of God’s hand in history, and if that’s how it is in the present, then there is hope for the future.
“Israelis will take care and G.d forbid,if needed,the vast expanses of the Sinai will be useful ………”
Was thinking the same. If another war does break out and Israel takes over Sinai again, it should not under any circumstances return it to Egypt as is. The northern part of the Sinai must be given to the Palestinians for a future state and the rest will be up to the parties to divide.
Glenn Beck had some interesting “man in the street” audio clips from the protests today.
Summary: They hate Mubarak, they hate Israel, they hate the US, and Mubarak is a tool of the Jews.
The issue is not foreign policy, it’s corruption in the middle east. The latter affects everyday’s life more than foreign policy. The secular leaders in the middle east are usually considered to be more corrupt than their islamic counterparts. However, the only way to fight corruption is to reduce state’s power. In this way, even western countries set a poor example.
“They are monsters, all of them, every man, woman and child, and they want to eat us alive and drink our blood.”
“Please go – and take all leftist hollywood and NY artists and financiers with you.”
“Until every last one of mohammed’s adherents are ERADICATED from the face of this earth, we will have these issues.”
“The man in the White House is one with the enemy. The goal of the destruction of Israel is only a first step to the main goal which is the destruction of the United States.”
Please take such comments elsewhere.
Benjamin, I think the comment(s)(?) you were referring to were taken down as I see them no more. Now they only live on in your delineation and denunciation of them. Perhaps you should request that the editor remove your comment as a final “clean-up effort” since he has obviously already agreed with you that the original comment(s) did not belong here. And I concur.
They are still there, unfortunately.
Yes, the comments are still there..
Now this is getting very weird. I took just one word, “Monsters” and did a page-wide search for it and it only found that word in Benjamin’s post calling for the original post to be taken down — but neither I, nor my search algorithm could find the original post!? There was no other match for the word “monsters” doing a straight/normal “find” using the Firefox browser’s “Find” search algorithm which is displayed at the bottom of the screen after pulling down EDIT–>Find in the Menu.
Perhaps just today the comment was taken down but when I wrote my first post it was still up and I simply overlooked it (when I wrote my first post I did not use a search to try to find the comment, I just glanced at each comment before Benjamin’s).
If someone still sees it, perhaps they could identify which comment # it is…(?) Just curious if I have a bug in my browser now…
reading the comments, I do wonder if Edward de Bono might have a point with his vitamin B deficiency theory of the Middle East. Irritability and paranoia does appear to be a theme.
Also, a couple of extra prophets and a nearly identical god with a different name do not a fundamentally different people make. The Palestinian wall is made of mirrored glass.
The protests are organized by individuals. Who are they? What is their political orientation? Are they democrats or islamists? I’m the national intelligence agencies must know this.
“And one cannot help but sympathize with the intensity of hope at work on the streets of Cairo. We would like to believe that, beneath the longstanding enmity between Israel and the Arabs, the hopes of the protestors are not unlike our own.”
Kerstein is living in “the garden of the finzi-continis”.
“Everything comes from G-d and G-d is good.
Let’s try to be a little positive here.”
Like Cancer and Aids. You religious jackass.
Why We Should Fear the Moslem Brother
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/01/why_we_should_fear_the_moslem.html
end the occupation, give back the golan, evacuate the rest of lebanon, share jerusalem and compensate those palestinain refugees not allowed to return, and you should be fine.
is this a joke or are you really that stupid?
This is evil nonsense.
Hand over the Saar, give back the Rhineland, let them have Austria and the Sudetenland. Then give them Danzig and you should be fine.
WoW, Thank You Peace. This is the first comment that I’ve seen that makes sense.I don’t understand how the Palestinians can be massacred all of these years over their land being illigally occupied and no retaliation of any kind coming from it.Before israel was a “state” it was all Palestine. (YaY!!! to those brave Egyptians who are standing up for their rights and what they believe in, finally someone is using their voices)
The Arabs and Jews lived together in peace as brothers, sisters, neighbors and friends. The used to share meals together and watch one anothers children.
Then it all fell apart due to men in power playing with lives like puppets on strings.Men who gave away land that number one: didn’t rightfully belong to them and number two: was already occupied by those who have lived there for generations.
How can a group of people cry victim when they are doing the exact same to another group?
As far as the United States is concerned, people are finally starting to wake up. All praises and thanks to God. It’s about time. We have been asleep for way too long. The US is also one of the leading supporters of israel. It’s amazing how people, as they wake, are starting to see the transgressing. If I go back up the comments, I can see the statements made by others about America(ns).This is how you speak of your biggest supporter? You might have well stabbed your best friend in the back and smiled in their faces.Not to worry, there will be a day of judgement for all of us. God willing you are all shown mercy.
Last comment:
I am not in any way anti-semetic myself (a term I find disgusting and very racist in its own right), I know many a semite in my life who I adore, both Arabs and Jews… may God keep us all safe and healthy.May God permit us all to enter the paradise that has been created for all of us.May God give us all patience and strength to make it past all of this chaos that has been created by those who transgress.Ameen!
Peace Out
The Palestinians and the Arabs in general have been quite adept at massacring Jews as well. Before Israel was Palestine it was Israel and Judea, comprising two Jewish kingdoms and then a Jewish republic that was raped, invaded, and slaughtered by empires from Babylon to Rome to the caliphate. Jews and Arabs did not live peacefully side by side; the Jews lived as an oppressed minority under a system of religious apartheid. Israel was formed not because of men in power playing with lives like puppets on strings, but because the Jewish people rose up against the monstrous injustice of dispossession, discrimination, oppression, and mass murder committed against them by pagans, Christians, and Muslims alike, and reclaimed the sovereign land that had been stolen from them. Whatever you may think about the Palestinian issue, this is a moral burden you must acknowledge and face before you can even begin to pontificate about peace.
“I don’t understand how the Palestinians can be massacred all of these years over their land being illigally occupied and no retaliation of any kind coming from it.”
Neither do I. I don’t understand how the Palestinians, who are the Jews, not the Arab settler-colonist invaders falsely calling themselves such, can take it all lying down.
“Before israel was a ‘state’ it was all Palestine.”
Before “Palestinian” became the name given to the Arab settlers in Palestine, it meant “Jew.” Immanuel Kant, in 18th-century Germany, referred to the Jews of Germany as “the Palestinians among us.”
“The Arabs and Jews lived together in peace as brothers, sisters, neighbors and friends.”
No, the Muslims used to be masters, the Jews and other non-Muslims tax-paying, mob-oppressed second-class citizens in the apartheid system called Dhimmi Law.
“The used to share meals together and watch one anothers children.”
More like, the Jews had to watch their own children to prevent them being kidnapped by the Muslim authorities and raised as Muslims. In Yemen this was the law for all Jewish orphans.
“land that number one: didn’t rightfully belong to them”
All of Palestine rightfully belongs to the Jews, who are the indigenous people of Palestine, and does not rightfully belong to the Arabs, who are indigenous to Arabia and settler-colonists outside of the Arabian Peninsula.
“and number two: was already occupied by those who have lived there for generations.”
Most of the Arabs living in Palestine today are descended from immigrants who in the late 19th and early 20th century, enticed to the land once the former desert started to bloom under Zionist love and care. They are opportunistic thieves, and enormously impudent to boot.
“I am not in any way anti-semetic myself (a term I find disgusting and very racist in its own right),”
But you are a Jew-hater. To be an anti-Zionist is to hate the Jews, just as someone who disbelieves in the right of the Greek nation to a state is a Greek-hater. There’s no way of whitewashing it.
“I know many a semite in my life who I adore, both Arabs and Jews…”
Some of your best friends are… yeah…
“may God keep us all safe and healthy.”
From you Muslims.
“May God give us all patience and strength to make it past all of this chaos that has been created by those who transgress.”
Chief of whom are you Muslims. Without you, strife between the religions of the world, as well as global terrorism, would be down to a minimum.
“Ameen!”
That’s the Koranic version of the Hebrew word “amen.” You’re a Muslim. You’re a foot-soldier of the invasion army of Islamic imperialism.
Ziontruth – If you cannot refrain from being openly bigoted, I would appreciate it if you would stop commenting. You aren’t helping in the least. Contrary to what you seem to believe, all Muslims are not evil murderers. You are no better than those who think the same of us. We have a right to demand that the Arabs respect our rights, but we should not slander them en masse the far too many have done to us in the past.
“If you cannot refrain from being openly bigoted, I would appreciate it if you would stop commenting.”
No problem. I don’t want to keep commenting in an environment not different in any meanginful way than Daily Kos.
so ziontruth sets straight “peace out his mind” and first you do the same then you turn on the man who fills in the CLUELESS one (thank you zion for the actual hisotry and not the FAkestinian version)
you must be a DEMOCRAT- first you are for it then you are against it??
you post a giant bunch of stupid and expect not to be called out on it?
PJM where do you find these leftards- they belong on Huffpots or haaretz
Thank You Ben, ziontruth, zionists are full of hate.By no way do you deserve any more of my attention.
ps.I’ll ignore the “clueless” name calling
Why is it that a conversation about the middle-east inevitably becomes a conversation about the Israel-Palestinian issue?
I thought we were talking about Egypt and Israel.
As much as I enjoy hitting my head against a wall (or arguing about whether Sarah Palin should run for President of the US), I’d pay good money to stay on topic.
Hate? No. Anger, most certainly. And we have a right to be angry. There is not only our horrendous history, which you prefer to ignore; but the arrogance of those who preach to us about love and peace while refusing to acknowledge our point of view. As I said, if you are not willing to see things through our eyes, even for a moment, then you have no right to speak about love, hate, peace, war, or anything else. I think you should start practicing what you preach. Instead, you arbitrarily decide you we don’t deserve your “attention.” Wonder, for a moment, if that might be a self-serving conceit. And wonder also what putting aside your prejudice and trying to walk a mile – or only a few feet, if that’s all you can do – in our shoes might be like.
Ben, first of all, the comment about hate, had nothing to do with you. That was a comment to ziontruth, I was referring to zion as being full of hate. I was thanking you for saying what you did in the earlier post.
notice the comma?
(Thank You Ben), (ziontruth, zionists are full of hate.By no way do you deserve any more of my attention)
This is what I was thanking you for:
(Ziontruth – If you cannot refrain from being openly bigoted, I would appreciate it if you would stop commenting. You aren’t helping in the least. Contrary to what you seem to believe, all Muslims are not evil murderers. You are no better than those who think the same of us. We have a right to demand that the Arabs respect our rights, but we should not slander them en masse the far too many have done to us in the past.)
When it comes to all of the politics involved going back 200 or more years, I don’t see how it has anything much to do with any of us. Obviously no one stops to think for a second, when you dwell in the past it accomplishes absolutely nothing.
All of the conflicts between the Arabs and Jews from 2-3 thousand years ago shouldn’t have anything to do with the conflicts of today. The past is the past and should be left there. I’m not saying forget it because then we are All doomed to repeat it.
I’m not saying to forget such things as the holocaust and all of the innocent people who were killed from this incident (but keep in mind that atrocity was created by europeans, not arabs or muslims). Of course the people who were victimized should be remembered with honor. Please don’t misunderstand anything im getting at.
Keep in mind however, what israel is doing to the palistinians is also wrong. Why do to those people now what was done to those before you?
I’m a muslim spanish american, I wasn’t always a muslim. I don’t blame the muslims for taking over spain for some 800 odd years, nor do I blame the arabs in this lifetime. They had nothing to do with it.This is many many years later. I hold nothing against the jews who are in the world. Do we not all come from the same creator at the end of the day?
As for keeping with the topic,I know many Egyptians who are dear to me. They are ticked off with their president (according to them) because that guy is doing nothing to help the people of Egypt.They are also voicing to me their unease of how the palistinians are being mistreated by the “state” of israel.They want an end to all of the fighting and killing.
(I’ve seen countless videos and news casts about the devistations done against children, elderly (who were killed brutally and or survived with injuries that whould have killed them or made them wish they were for what they now have to live with), people at the gates trying to get to work and being told they can’t bring their own food,being late to work. These videos are coming from the jewish women of israel who watch the borders. ie shani,machom watch,Jewish Voices Against the Occupation…. I could go on but lucky for you I wont.)
Will you say your own women are liars?(mothers, wives and sisters) Would you dare? I see no reason for them to do such things.
What about your rabbis? Rabbi Weiss, is he also a liar? I think he’s a sharp fella with a good head on his shoulders, following the Torrah as it was meant to be followed.
You think the Egyptians are only ticked off with their president and israel? Of course not, they are super miffed with americans as well because the good ole US of A supports those who are holding them down.
All of the problems that are happening now in the world,is a super shame. I’m not trying to sound like Rodney King when I say this but, can’t we all just get along???
You think that muslims in the US are being treated fairly? I work in the public when I am constantly being bothered by people, they see the scarf upon my head and start right in on me (ie… oh it’s because of your people the twin towers were blown up–had nothing to do with me or my people–whoever my people are supposed to be, where I come from “my people” are my family), however, I don’t sit in the corner and “boo hoo” about it, I also don’t lash out against them. How would I answer to God come judgement day when I’m asked to answer for my actions?
So for me to say anything about peace… I practice what Islam has taught me, I practice what I preach. At the end of time I will have to only answer to God, just like the rest of anyone else.
It was a long night at work and I am super tired and must go for now. I wish all who read, the best and peace, many blessings too.
My feet are way too small to fit in others shoes but how about trying on a pair from Egypt or palestine to see how they fit.
we are not all as different as what you may think, we all bleed the same, we all feel pain and grief, we are all blessed the sun rises and falls and we wake daily to take another breath.
salam…. shalome….peace!!!!
I’m sorry, but the non-Jewish world doesn’t get off so easily. History is a monstrous tyrant, and you cannot wish it out of existence. The past matters. It is who we are and where we come from. Without it, we are nothing but a passing present moment. Our history is that for 2,000 years we were kept ground under the heels of others who mistreated because they could: They were many and we were few, they were strong and we were weak. Now we are still few, but we are not weak, and we have the strength to fight back against those who persecute us. You won’t want to hear this, but among those persecutors then and today are Egyptians, Palestinians, and many other Arabs and Muslims. That is your burden, not ours.
Clearly, the only Jews you are willing to listen to are Jews who support your own beliefs and prejudices. They are not liars – although sometimes they do exaggerate and lie to further their cause – but they present only one part of a much larger picture. You cannot understand us and who we are if you look only to them. Read Bialik, or Herzl, or Ben-Gurion, or Jabotinsky, and many others, and you would see that our struggle is not to do unto others as was done to us, but rather to achieve freedom, justice, and empowerment for our people in our own land. Whatever our mistakes on the way, this is an honorable and just cause. It is one that any people in our position would have taken up.
I have tried to look at us through Arab eyes, and while I cannot know precisely what that would be like, I think I understand their hatred of us. What I cannot understand is their refusal to acknowledge even an iota of justice or nobility to our cause. Their complete refusal to understand who we are and where we come from. Until the Arab and Muslim world is prepared to do this, I do not think peace of any kind will be possible.
As an addition, I will say that you seem to be a sensitive and concerned person, and that you sincerely believe what you are saying. I can only speak as one Israeli and Zionist, but what I want most from the Arab and Muslim world is for people like you to make the attempt to understand us that I have been describing.
No one wants to talk about it, but it is a fact: If Israel is attacked again, it will be attacked by more than one country. The arsenals of the hostile surrounding countries are significantly more dangerous than in 1973 (thanks to the USA). The only hope of survival will be the deployment of nuclear bombs. Get ready for Armageddon!
“The only hope of survival will be the deployment of nuclear bombs.”
I fervently hope not. This option isn’t called the Samson Option for nothing–it’s supposed to be the truly last resort, employed when absolutely everything other alternative has been exhausted.
I don’t see anything good coming out of the unrest in Egypt regardless of which power or political entity takes control of the government. Secular, Jihadist, Islamic radical…whatever…it bears no good tiding for Israel. Just another step closer to the war in the Middle East that is surely coming. Hope that every Israeli is “locked and loaded”.
b’itah ahishena
Isaiah 60:22
I offer a Catholic slant to both Jew and Muslim: Pray like everything depends on God, and work like everything depends on me (St. Augustine). The author and commentators, are correct, the Middle East is at a tipping point, and no one can see the very different future. Regional or world war is a possibility. But we know several things. Forty year dictatorships are cracking, all over Islam. A peace treaty with a murderer is not wholly satisfactory. We know that neither America or Israel can install, “our man” in power, in these nations, for two reasons. We have no idea who to pick, and he would be shot by his people. We know, for now, that conscript militaries are loathe to kill their own people. But there is something new, and it gives hope: the internet.
This technology permitted the uprisings and is now feared in every dictatorial nation, from the Atlantic to the China Sea. For a century, citizens learn from their leaders about the news from some international conference. However, in the last two days, I have emailed a colloquy with two (unknown) angry Muslims via Al Jezeera. They think American leaders are jerks, and I agree, in large part.
I suggest that everyone on earth twitter Syria and state that all faiths should be able to peacefully worship as they choose in Jerusalem, and that you would defend this position with a gun. The result might be a new Syria, and peace along the Golan.
People power, and prayers, can change unchangeable history.
Exactly, the Israeli Egypt situation was at least bearable, now as a result of the American betrayal of Mubarak it much, much, worse.
It could get so bad that another Egyptian war against Israel could be in the cards, and sooner rather than later.
I would rewrite “as a result of the American betrayal of Mubarak it much, much, worse.”
====
It should read “as a result of the American President’s betrayal of Mubarak it’s much, much, worse.
Most citizens of the USA stand with Israel.
What perfect conditions for another global war. With the leader of the free world laying on the ropes.
To our dearest friends in Israel,
We, the people of the United States, watch and wait and hope and worry along with our brothers and sisters in Israel. Egypt is not in the thros of revolution. They are in the thros of a global economic recession under an aging dictatorship and an American super power lead by the hapless with the brains of a ham sandwich. This is the perfect storm under which radical Islam might emerge with the greatest prize of all …. the Suez Canal.
If only America had at least a competent leader or even a smart leader …. we don’t. What we have is a cluess experiment in diversity in pursuit of global forgiveness for emagined crimes against everyone and everything. To paraphrase Thomas Paine, We voted for a leader and we got an ass.”
God Bless America. God Bless Israel. May God spare us from American wishful thinking so beloved by our bloodthirsty enemies.
Ziontruth – I like to think that it is possible to be rightwing without being a genocidal psychopath. Clearly you disagree. I advise you go back to Arutz 7 or the Kahane Chai website where they will no doubt welcome such sentiments.
Isahiah62 – First, learn to spell “Isaiah”. Second, try to write in sentences that are actually comprehensible. Third, please join Ziontruth in whatever Kahanist hellhole he crawled out of. Fourth, I will simply note that I managed to make a cogent and forceful defense of Zionism’s historical origins without slandering a religion of a billion people as “foot soldiers of Islamic imperialism” and the like. I would very much appreciate it if you and everyone else who cannot do the same would go elsewhere to post your rantings.
“Ziontruth – I like to think that it is possible to be rightwing without being a genocidal psychopath.”
Pointing out the truth that the great majority of Muslims want all Jews dead makes me a genocidal psychopath?! Have you no decency?!
The only way you could rightly label me a genocidal psychopath is if I’d called for killing them all. I never have. (The comment with “ERADICATED” in capitals that you quoted wasn’t mine.) All over the right-wing blogosphere, I’ve made it very clear I advocate mass expulsion but not genocide.
OK, I needed to post this in defense of your libelous accusation, but that’s it, I’m not staying any longer on a site that has been exercising very poor judgment for a long time. What with articles echoing the left-wing point of view, columns degrading Tea Party leaders like Palin and Bachman, pieces insulting Bible-believers by bashing dissent to evolution, and now your Left-compatible stance, I see no worth in participating here any longer. This creeping RINOishness has a tendency to get worse with time (for the most extreme case of which see: LGF).
You referred to every Muslim man, woman, and child as a bloodthirsty monster. That is genocidal dehumanization and I do not see how “only” wanting to expel them makes it any more honorable or any more sane. If you really think the Palestinians could be expelled without committing mass murder, then you are even crazier than I thought.
Your ranting about RINOs only proves what I suspected: You do not actually care in the least about Israel and the Jewish people. You care only about the apocalyptic fantasies of the farthest extremes of the American right. As a result, ironically, you disgrace not only Israel but also America. Name me one Republican who advocates the mass expulsion of the Palestinians. You wont find one, and your identification with them slanders the Republican party. Have you no decency?
Please go away and save your disgusting rhetoric for your Kahanist friends, who will thankfully always remain a marginalized minority of arrogant American expats in Israel who secretly loathe their adopted country and its people..
Ziontruth, why do you think All Muslims are against Jews and would like to see them all dead? I simply don’t agree with the politics but I certainly don’t want to see anyone dead over it.You seem to have a twisted ideation about Islam and Muslims.Keep in mind there are a handfull of nut balls in every group.You shouldn’t assume that the main stream people of one group or another are represented by the handfull of nutballs. I’m sure others would agree…. (I am only responsible for my own actions, not that of others and I only speak for myself).
Furthermore, those who are blaming Obama for the backstabbing, he is only a meat puppet taking orders from his masters. The president of the USA holds no more water than a cup with a hole in the bottom.
Ben, you also seem like a sincere person. I don’t have to agree with everything you say but neither do you have to agree with everything I say.I appreciate your sincerity.
I also want to say (and you probably wont agree with me)I think, if we allow our histories to dictate to us how we live our lives today, we will repeat the same mistakes over and over. This will not solve problems.Insanity is doing the same thing over and over the same way and expecting different results.This insanity we all find ourselves in, it needs to stop! The fighting we are all doing, it needs to stop! This killing our tribes,countrymen, and religious brothers and sisters are doing, it needs to stop! People need to chill out and get over themselves. We are all nothing more than tiny particles in the universe, nothing is permanent, everything is temporary, and come days end we all answer to God for all what we have done in our lives to our selves and others.
Lastly, a nuke? Seriously? What good would this bring? Blame others for hate only to blow up your own children, your own people? I don’t see the point. If your people are strong you will weather the storm. The nuke, it’s just not cool.What about all of the innocents that would be killed in israel and the surrounding countries? It’s bad enough the birds are falling from the sky and the fish are belly up in their watery graves.
Anyway, I wish you all well. I’m out, Peace!!!
hit the button before filling my name
but you know who
yeah one not so dumb or suicidal Jew
First thing first: this is not an outcry for “democracy” – neither were the Iranian protests.