War on Drugs vs. War on Terror
It’s been suggested that in the War on Drugs there are no winners, only losers.
But as the UN reports that the Taliban pulled in over $100 million from 2007′s opium trade, and still more from opium trade-related activities, that suggestion is being proven sorely incorrect. David Belgrove, head of counter narcotics at the British embassy in Kabul reports to BBC News that “a lot of [the Taliban's] arms and ammunition are being funded directly by the drugs trade.” Definitions regarding the terms of victory for our war efforts in the Middle East and Central Asia have always been contentious. But these findings and the manner in which they have been presented, make clear that debates surrounding definitions of the enemy, the war, and even definitions of public morality, need deeper resolutions before we can make sense of what progress might look like on any front.
Maybe it’s because the question of drug legalization so immediately conjures images of adolescent pseudo-politicized dope smokers that serious people seem disinclined to take the subject very seriously anymore. Conservatives tend toward disdain for such contingents while liberals want to be sure their politics are taken seriously, not as some extension of the free-wheeling 60′s.
But the War on Drugs has been undermining the War on Terror for long enough now that it’s time to reconsider both sides’ lack of consideration to what is an extremely pressing topic.
The conservative aversion to placating the druggie polity is, however, less warranted than some might initially think. While it may go without saying that libertarianism and conservatism are not uncomfortable bedfellows, and that libertarians often advocate drug legalization, what many conservatives may not know is what one of their great sages, the late William F. Buckley, had to say on the matter. In a statement to the New York Bar Association published by the National Review in 1996, Buckley said,
…more people die every year as a result of the war against drugs than die from what we call, generically, overdosing. These fatalities include, perhaps most prominently, drug merchants who compete for commercial territory, but include also people who are robbed and killed by those desperate for money to buy the drug to which they have become addicted.
When Buckley made this observation we were not yet engaged in a counterinsurgency against jihadist and non-jihadist opposition in the heartland of poppy country. He was only making inferences based on statistical evidence in regards to domestic policy. Today, we may now pause to consider a darker, more drastic iteration of Buckley’s point with international implications: a significant amount of casualties from the War on Drugs must be added to those from the War on Terror, and then compared to the statistics on death from possible drug overdose.
Drug policy has been sculpted by notions of public morality, out of the supposed desire to maintain order and to preserve quality of life instead of letting it deteriorate. But the evidence proves that those objectives are not only failing to be met, the inverse is being accomplished. Drug policies — in particular those defined by eradication of crops and draw-down of demand — create more chaos than order, and destroy more lives than they save. This argument needs now to extend beyond the crack alleys of America and into rural Afghanistan, where farmers and their families — our potential allies in the quest for peace and stability in Afghanistan — are suffering because of our own stale ineffectual anti-drug policy.
Buckley goes on to cite a startling statistic about the economic dynamics of illegal drugs:
the pharmaceutical cost of cocaine and heroin is approximately 2 per cent of the street price of those drugs. Since a cocaine addict can spend as much as $1,000 per week to sustain his habit, he would need to come up with that $1,000. The approximate fencing cost of stolen goods is 80 per cent, so that to come up with $1,000 can require stealing $5,000 worth of jewels, cars, whatever. We can see that at free-market rates, $20 per week would provide the addict with the cocaine which, in this wartime drug situation, requires of him $1,000.
This point is relevant to our dilemma with the Afghan opposition for a single, obvious reason. Mark-up due to criminalization turns drugs into big business. Some of the revenues from that big business in America may funnel back into the economy as dealers buy fancy cars, and enjoy extravagant lifestyles, but in Afghanistan it buys arms for the enemy. But most importantly it delivers the hearts and minds of the population to those who protect their poppy harvest; and that, of course, is not the U.S. and its allies.
If the pharmaceutical price of heroin is two percent the street price, then one need only imagine the deflation in revenues for the Taliban if the product was no longer going to generate the inflated street price. But never mind street drugs. The majority of the world’s opium is sold to the world’s wealthiest nations for medical use. Who thinks that the world’s poorest nations have no use for those same medications? Why should farmers in Afghanistan starve, so that the infirmed in Uganda might suffer?
Fortunately, there are obvious solutions that can be implemented, but unfortunately nobody wants to come near them. As Frank Kenefick, a development specialist for USAID and former World Bank consultant told me, “the Taliban’s entry into the opium fields (as ‘protectors’ of the poor sharecropppers and growers) was a political and insurgency coup handed to them by INL’s ignorance of insurgency and drugs control.”
But Kenefick believes that, if only policymakers could quietly gulp down their pride and change the failed strategies of the past, Afghanistan could survive and begin to stabilize. For now, though, the path is a direct one toward factionalization and growing mistrust, which he believes will create dire circumstances vis-a-vis Pakistan, should matters continue to progress along the present trajectory.
Faced with the choice between saving face and achieving victory on behalf of the peaceful, moderate Afghans in whose interests we are supposed to be fighting, the current administration appears to be choosing the former. Such stubbornness has been praised and sometimes rightly so, as the Bush administration has not failed to call militant theocratic fascism an unequivocal enemy of civilization. However, in having done so, it seems to have gotten perhaps too carried away with terms like the “War on Terror” and the “Taliban” as catch-all bogeymen. By grouping all opposition forces under the “Taliban” rubric, Kenefick says, continuing mistakes in strategy “have been covered by masking activities under a (domestic media) ‘counterterrorism’ banner. Afghans desperately need real economic help — including an interim ‘legalization’ of the poppy while other agricultural production can be re-established — and regional/socio-ethnic political reconciliations.”
As long as we define victory in the War on Drugs as the eradication of criminalized and thus overpriced substances and all those involved in the highly lucrative distribution and thereof, while defining victory in the War on Terror as the defeat of the “Taliban” as opposed to the more accurate jihadist forces in places like Afghanistan, the War on Drugs will continue to undermine the War on Terror.
This is purely a consequence of our own self-imposed conceptual framework. We may not have control over what rogue Islamists do with their time and resources, but we have absolute control over whether we choose to allow the truly un-winnable war on drugs to stop us from defeating the most ruthless adversaries of democracy.






“This is purely a consequence of our own self-imposed conceptual framework. We may not have control over what rogue Islamists do with their time and resources, but we have absolute control over whether we choose to allow the truly un-winnable war on drugs to stop us from defeating the most ruthless adversaries of democracy.”
But who are the major markets and users of drugs?
It is the liberal minded youth of the Western World. Hollywood is the best promoter of these stuff.
We have to fight drugs at all fronts in our country. But now, while President Bush is receiving all the flacks of War against Afghanistan and Iraq, the American and European bohemian society is snipping cocaine and are high in tracks.
All these Anti-War rhetorics are hyprocrisy to its very core.
I am now sounding as McCain democrat.
the pharmaceutical cost of cocaine and heroin is approximately 2 per cent of the street price of those drugs
Legalizing drugs would be horribly deflationary. Ben Bernanke wouldn’t like that
We should legalize drugs. My 14 year old kid can get pot anytime he wants to too. So can I for that matter. And X and meth and coke. It is not hard to do. All it takes is money.
He finds it really really hard to buy cigarettes though.
One way to stop opium is with fungal mycoherbicides. Spraying a field with them is the equivalent, for opium, of sowing the field with salt, as the Romans did. For details, see: Killer fungi, http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1448.html
Bush allegedly (according to Dunces of Doomsday) had that option available to him when he sent the military into Afghanastan, but elected not to use it because it would be “too disruptive” of the Afghan economy.
We need to set clear national priorities and follow them, without “politically correct” inhibitions.
I’ve never understood why didn’t we just buy the poppies from Afghani farmers and then just destroy them. It probably costs less than our interdiction efforts over there.
Anyone who believes that we’d have drugs all over the place in our schools without the valiant efforts of our drug warriors is clearly NOT paying attention…
Yeah when I was 16 I was sniffing coke and doing e and smoking pot. Almost never drank alcohol though. It was a pain in the ass to get that stuff. It’s almost funny to think about it now.
docduke:
you could go ahead and ruin the farmers land forever, but that’s not exactly winning hearts and minds, now is it? They don’t grow poppies because they want to be drug kingpins. They grow the poppies because poppies are worth the most money, because they are so illegal.
It is even worse than that. The NIDA says: Addiction Is A Genetic Disease
I’ve never understood why didn’t we just buy the poppies from Afghani farmers and then just destroy them.
Because if you don’t do anything about the demand side you will eventually be paying everyone in the world for poppies.
And what do we know after 100 years of working the supply and demand sides: nothing works. Rehab is a sham and interdiction is just a price support mechanism.
Ever been to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting? Check your local listings – there are hundreds, if not thousands, in the town or city you live in. Anyone who had trouble getting alcohol during childhood is misremembering or lying. Think making drugs legal would lead to a decrease in consumption, or even a plateauing? How about “Joy Dust! It’ll F-ck You Up Right!” with some hot chick during the Sunday afternoon football game?
Come on you idiots. You can’t seriously believe your own crap. The only answer to the Afghan problem is the one already cited: we buy it, and burn it. It’ll probably just go somewhere else, but this is on our watch now out in Helmand. The only solution to the drug problem is not buying it – and no, people don’t do it because they’re “desperate,” but because drugs are so goddamn fun. Self-discipline is the answer, and not that much of it either.
Addiction is not a genetic disease! Jesus. Have you people ever known any addicts or been one yourself?
We spend over $100 Billion dollars yearly on “The War on Drugs,” which, after 40 years, has barely made a dent in curtailing those determined to use drugs. Privitized Prisons have become the very model of Capitalism at the cost of human misery, such prisons are stuffed with drug users and low level dealers, so much so, that we have, on a par with China, become the World’s biggest jailer. And to what purpose? Are fewer people using drugs? Or committing fewer crimes to procure them?
I’m with Buckley on the issue, either Legalize it, or decriminalize it and acknowlege that drug abuse is a medical problem and treat it as such. For example, for opiate addicts, there is a substance, one of the brand names is subutex, which takes the hunger for heroin, oxycontin, etc, away, does not get the patient “high,” and allows individuals to reclaim their life by becoming functioning citizens again. However,
Current short sighted policy has prevented this very useful opoid agonist from being prescribed by one’s primary Physician, and only permits expensive, specially licensed Practitioners from prescribing it, and the drug itself, dispensed very cheaply in Europe BTW, is very expensive to purchase here. Where is the common sense in that Policy?
(The DEA is An agency that I oppose, btw, as I feel it is too intrusive into the Doctor-Patient relationship, and has an agenda of it’s own: maintaining Political and social power over the citizens of the United States, that is counter to their original mandate which was to prevent the “diversion” of narcotics, etc.and NOT to tell Doctors how they can treat their patients, I speak of non-terminal, Chronic Pain Patients who are every bit as embattled currently with the policies of this agency as some gun owners have been with the ATF in the past.)
At any rate, the addicted, like the poor, will always be with us. Personally, I’ve always seen addition as being indicative of some other issue, a symptom as it were. I think that those who think of addiction only in terms of being a “moral failing” are misreading the issue, IMO.
In addition, Prohibition of alcohol only encouraged American scoff-laws at best, and organized crime at worst.
Anyone with a Libertarian bone in their body should oppose Current US drug Policy.
In Afghanistan’s case, I also think that we might as well pay the Farmers to raise the poppies, and then use the crop to either to make opoids or destroy it (The seeds of the Opium Poppy, BTW, are edible…they are the same seeds used on poppy seed bagels, for example.
Our current policies are not only fiscally irresponsible, they simply don’t work.
ummm… dan, what about buying the poppies and, instead of burning them, producing opiate medications for the sizable majority of the world population currently forced to do without the basic pain relief the western world has enjoyed for decades?
and it is certainly worth noting that the vast bulk of drug users are responsible, contributing members of society – not addicts. the “war on drugs,” which most certainly undermines the “war on terror,” is not only ineffective, but entirely unnecessary.
as many have noted before, the greatest dangers of using drugs are the prospect of arrest and incarceration, not overdose and addiction.
The essential difference between the War on Drugs and the War on Terror is that no one consumes terror voluntarily.
mishu:
I’ve never understood why didn’t we just buy the poppies from Afghani farmers and then just destroy them. It probably costs less than our interdiction efforts over there.
I agree. Send the DEA packing and tell them never to return. They have helped make a mess of Afghanistan and even the NATO troops have said they wish they could shoot some of the DEA agents.
However, the problem is more complex because the farmers are ordered to sell to only those with the guns and the power, meaning the Taliban and any Warlord outside Taliban territory – not Karzai and his troops of the Potemkin Democracy bunkered inside Kabul when he is not visiting his good friend W at Crawford…The farmers are scared shitless to sell it to us, and will not cooperate until they are safe under national troops or a warlord. Leaving us with the choice paying them for a crop they won’t harvest out of fear, burn it and make every farmer a Taliban recruit, or let them collect it as ordered.
And we have to recognize that blocking heroin from junkies cannot be a plausible side-goal of US counter-terror policy. Only ending money to the Taliban. Assume we are somehow wildly successful after thousands of deaths and hundreds of billions we don’t have, and Afghan farmers in 2016 are growing wheat, chinese herbals and pistachios – heroin growing will just shift to another lawless nation suited for poppy like Somalia, Congo, Zimbabwe.
Also, past the Taliban, you have powerful, wealthy non-Taliban people that support the Taliban because they get and market the heroin and get billions more after markup for moving it through the international smuggling rings they have. Which depend – now, on doing what it takes to defeating Americans and Karzai’s government and keeping their Taliban supplier in business. That would be elements of Paks ISI, leaders of Pak Parties, various Pak generals, Balauchis in Pakistan and Iran that are the traditional smugglers.
Options:
1. Recruit and train soldiers and warlords who get paid more than the Taliban pays to swear fealty to the Afghan Government and act as it’s agent. Guard the farmers and their crops, which includes poppies – while the US can exercise an option to come in and buy up the whole crop and dump it on the global market, dirt-cheap.
2. Allow the soldiers and warlords the opportunity to market the heroin to others as long as the Taliban gets no cut.
3. Do as in #1, but as a phase-out over a decade if the farmers can find crops they can grow and get to market that pay more than what they traditionally get from The Horse.
4. Do like the US does to its Agribiz fatcats – pay them not to grow any poppies for 10 years and get a fat check from the US, Euro taxpayer handed out by inspectors that confirm no poppies grow in the weeks before the normal opium harvest starts.. Violators get their field burned, no compensation. But again, this requires more than a phony showcase democracy confined to a single city. This needs warloads and their troops which also, as before, need a check.
If they opium can be used for medications and this economically reasonable, then by all means do it. I’d forgotten about that possibility.
I also agree that most drug users are not rotten addicts, but do not agree that recreational drug use is as harmless as drug decriminalization advocates claim. I myself have been a recreational drug user for years at a time and my friends have almost always also been recreational users of one thing or another (or multiple things). Only a few people I’ve known have slipped into what the untrained would clearly recognize as abject addiction – but the centripital force of drug pleasure is not much less attractive among most of the recreational users, including myself.
Aside from the at least slightly withering effects of recreational consistent drug use, the other danger is one that might be encapsulated in the following warning an old poetry professor – once a famous libertine – told us: “drugs increase your enthusiasm without improving your taste.”
The romantic effects of a high make one, and therefore a society to the extent it is composed of habitual users, vulnerable to a certain kind of stupidity and cultural shallowness that ramifies other natural temptations away from the self-discipline that is one of the few pillars of a healthy cultural intellect and aesthetic. Drug use is a distraction, a slutty teacher. It also – simply because of the stress all drugs put on the central nervous system – unnecessarily increases anxiety and other low-grade forms of mania.
I’m not saying people ought not to use drugs – people obviously can and do use drugs, and as you guys point out and I know for a fact few people have trouble getting them if they are persistent about it. But that isn’t the issue. The issue is that the law ought to be constructed so as to recognize and address the realities of drug use, and individuals ought to be educated – suavely – on the dangers of it. It ought to remain stigmatized. These forms of prohibition do work, and do put great pressure on a large number of individuals not to use drugs. I know them, and you know them. The proposition that our $100 billion a year have not put a dent in drug use or the availability of drugs is simply absurd on its face.
The problem in Afghanistan is that poppy sells at a hundred times the price that other crops do – and this is a function of the global drug market more than anything. It is impossible to tell people who live in subsistence or just above subsistence economies to not do something for some abstract moral crime it visits on entirely abstract people – or their own, for whom they have a different regard. The entire point is the money the crop produces. If Karzai/NATO simply instituted a national poppy purchasing program at the current or even slightly better price and then enforced it – do we have the troops? – then we would instantly or in some reasonable term deprive the Taliban/central Asian jihadis of what appears to be their principle form of revenue (outside Saudi and other patrons). The point is to end this revenue – used for weapons, logistics, to cement tribal alliances, to corrupt officials, etc. If that has the effect of greatly reducing the heroin supply especially to Europe then hey – good.
In fact I heard an NPR segment yesterday about an NYTimes photographer who’s been in Afghanistan awhile and he described great mobs of Afghan males all over the place just smoking hash and injecting heroin out in the open. Probably there are a lot of Afghans who would rather this problem not afflict their own society, or at least you’d think so.
The War on Drugs is inherently a leftist ideal. Supporting it requires a collectivist mindset. According to the government’s own data, the vast majority of people who use illegal drugs, even meth and heroin, are, like the vast majority of people who use alcohol, not addicts.
Shrinking the size and scope of government should the #1 priority for any true conservative. The war on drugs decreases liberty for Americans, costs billions in taxes, makes it more difficult to manage violent and property crimes, and only serves to keep dealers and drug lords rich.
To suggest that Americans need the government to keep themselves and their children from becoming addicted to drugs is to embrace the worst aspects of leftist ideology.
“The proposition that our $100 billion a year have not put a dent in drug use or the availability of drugs is simply absurd on its face.”
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Statistics say otherwise. If you look at the Government’s own data, the number of people using drugs has remained pretty constant; some even think that the percentage of addicts in America has remained constant over the 100 years since the first drug laws were passed. Personally I think that providing drugs to chronic drug addicts is good public policy, and I don’t think that, like Americans and alcohol, that most people will be tempted to become junkies, I grant that Americans have more common sense than that.
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“The War on Drugs is inherently a leftist ideal.”
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In point of fact, it was Richard Nixon that started the Modern “War on Drugs,” got the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 passed into Law, and established the DEA.
Of course he worked with a Democrat Congress to get all of it passed, but it has been Conservative Presidents who seem to harp on the importance of the War on Drugs.
More importantly, Over the last 30 years, the DEA has been given the authority to gut the 4th amendment, and most Americans, like the good sheep that they are, haven’t said a peep about this outrageous imfringement on our Constitution.
@LJM:
I’m going to have to agree with radical_moderate – you got that sentence half-right.
The War on Drugs is inherently a collectivist ideal. It is left/right neutral, but is strongest on the far left and far right – moderates rarely rail against the evils of drugs or feel a requirement for the government to step in in excess. It’s the far left and far right that believe, as you mentioned, that Americans need the government to protect people from themselves – but often for different reasons. For example, “Compassionate Christian” right-wing types believe that it is their duty to save people from sin as the Lord’s work.
Collectivism is the opposite of Freedom. It’s a truly frightening mindset which encourages that everyone follow the majority or be punished. It’s a mindset that believes that people cannot make rational choices for themselves, so choices often need to be eliminated, maybe eliminated entirely.
This collectivism is what gets us Home Owner’s Associations that can sell your house from underneath you for choosing the wrong color of stain for your fence. It gets us smoking bans in our own homes.
When I think of where this country is headed, under the grips of collectivism, I’m reminded of “America’s Mayor” Mr. Rudy Giuliani and his exit speech from the 2008 Primaries:
“Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.”
This is the American ideal of freedom now. American freedom means to do whatever you want, as long as the government approves first.
a lot of you commenting in the pro drug war lot seem to think that anyone who talks about legalization of drugs means they’re going to be selling heroin at your local convenience store. and that isn’t what the majority of pro drug legalization folks think should or would be done. in an ideal situation the drugs would be regulated by the government and dispensed under the direction of a doctor or some other health professional.
if we have seen one result of this drug war, it is this… there is always going to be a segment of the population that uses drugs, no matter the consequences. and you can throw all the money at it you want but its not gonna make them go away. so how about we put that money to a better use and pay down the national debt or give all US citizens free health care?
the national, federal, state and local combined price tag for War on Drugs is close to 200 billion a year. May be more. This is just law enforcement.
There are also expenses in the court system: there are millions arrested each year for pot possession!
And health care expenses
And more and more…
Also drug trafficking routes were developed by organized crime in syndicate with different foreign enemy forces in order to have means to deliver bio- and chemical weapons to US.
So drug enforcement policies as we have it now is one of the MAJOR threats to our national security
Sad reality- but it is true.
Dan, you are missing the point. That being the most harmful side effects are the legal ones. Both for the individual and society.
Legalize drugs by setting up an FDA catagorey for recreational drugs ( ciggs and potables included), let the drug compaines go thru the steps to sell them legally and you will take the crime out of the process. You will also make the drug companies trillions of dolars richer. ALL those dollars coming out of the pockets of organized crime and terrorists. The drug companies will plow a certain percentage back into research, some of which will be medical.
Over half the people in prison today are there for drug related crimes. Historically, you cannot legislate morality. All attempts by governments to do so has led to the fall of those governments.
This is a Mencken solution, of course. To many vested interests in keeping drugs illegal. Drug dealers, terrorists, politicians, cops, lawyers, judges, journalists, et, al.
What’s your reason, given that keeping certain drugs illegal is an irrational decision?
My reason is that I do not believe the economics of the situation trumps what must follow from legalization: increased usage, and probably vastly so. It makes a difference, I assure you, that I cannot simply throw a half-ounce of prime weed into my shopping cart – as I might a half-pint of Maker’s Mark – when I visit my local grocery store every week. I don’t understand how the effects of small changes like this fail to impact the libertarian imagination. It is true that all manner of people, from governments and intelligence agencies to ghetto kids, profit from the illegality of certain drugs – but that is primarily because people want to take them. Presuming the same number of people will want to use them upon legalization, since it would be weird to argue that people use them *because* they are illegal, the number would obviously increase among the much larger segment of the population that does *not* currently use them. Availability, coupled with the inherent attraction of currently illegal drugs, is obviously the major factor determining popularity here. The only counterbalance to availability, given the ready demand, is law enforcement.
The penological argument does elicit sympathy, but unfortunately the fact that so many people are arrested and incarcerated due to drug-related offenses is not an argument for their legalization; on that model, no crime could withstand such reforms, since there are also a very large number of people in jail for burglary, rape, murder, and so on. That so many crimes are committed in relation to obtaining drugs is no argument, since in reality their aim is to attain the money associated with selling or controlling drugs, not the effects of the drugs themselves.
The problem I have with the legalization perspective is that its main support is in fact not this or that penological or economic argument but a conspicuous refusal to acknowledge the harmful effects of drugs. This denial or refusal is generally rationalized by reference to an ideological claim that “morality cannot be legislated.” This is false: all legislation is inherently a moral judgment. Even minute evidentiary rules or the purposes of esoteric fiscal policies or appropriations are based at least implicitly on some furthering some moral goal.
And it is here, by the way, where I find the legalization types and libertarians generally consonant with the Left: substituting arguments about freedom for plainly observable facts does no service to the cause of freedom. The facts are decisive, and the only way ideology is made to be decisive is by mobilizing enough minds in its favor – that is, other facts – in order to prevail. But no mind may change the effect of cocaine on the central nervous sytem, or habitual marijuana use on motivation, nor make heroin any less addictive. Nor will it due to console ourselves with ideological consistency when we suddenly have the incidence of habitual drug use increase by 50% because they are available in the equivalent of state liquor stores and thereby become normalized in commerce and society. Have you, for example, not observed the effect of the ubiquity of hardcore pornography on younger people? Maybe you’re not in a position to observe it, beyond media articles about HPV occurrence. But trust me, it’s there, my friend.
In point of fact, it was Richard Nixon that started the Modern “War on Drugs…”
Indeed. The reason I stress that the WOD is a leftist ideal is because it’s mostly supported by people who consider themselves conservative.
My reason is that I do not believe the economics of the situation trumps what must follow from legalization: increased usage, and probably vastly so.
This is demonstrably false. In places like Denmark where drugs are decriminalized, there are lower rates of use. And again, it’s a documented fact (by our own anti-drug government) that most illicit drug users, like most alcohol consumers, are not addicts.
It is true that all manner of people, from governments and intelligence agencies to ghetto kids, profit from the illegality of certain drugs – but that is primarily because people want to take them.
This is demonstrably false. All manner of people profit from the illegality of drugs, precisely because they’re illegal. The same people do not profit in places where drugs are decriminalized and regulated.
but unfortunately the fact that so many people are arrested and incarcerated due to drug-related offenses is not an argument for their legalization; on that model, no crime could withstand such reforms, since there are also a very large number of people in jail for burglary, rape, murder, and so on.
This is a terrible analogy. Burglary, rape, and murder involve unwilling victims. You’re equating transactions between consenting adults with the worst kinds of violent crime. This is a terrible way to argue your point.
The problem I have with the legalization perspective is that its main support is in fact not this or that penological or economic argument but a conspicuous refusal to acknowledge the harmful effects of drugs.
This is demonstrably false. Most serious, professionally published arguments for legalization acknowledge the dangers of drug use. But here is a fact that frightens totalitarians and authoritarians: freedom is dangerous. The freedom to drive recreationally is more dangerous than marijuana. Adults, free individuals, have the right to do to themselves what they will, or they are not free. You are arguing that the government, the collective, owns our bodies, for our own good. Whether or not you believe it to be for the good of society, this is a totalitarian philosophy.
…substituting arguments about freedom for plainly observable facts does no service to the cause of freedom.
I couldn’t agree more. The objective fact is that drug use and abuse is lower in countries where drugs are decriminalized. The objective fact is that most drug users in America, including users of meth and heroin, are not addicts. The objective fact is that there are a variety of perfectly legal activities which are demonstrably more dangerous than illicit drug use. The objective fact is that prohibition has created a culture of corruption in law enforcement and made it more difficult to solve and prosecute crimes with unwilling victims. There’s a long list of facts that clearly demonstrate the failure and folly of prohibition.
Your facts are as follows: Drugs are scary. Drugs are dangerous. That’s it. Those facts are true for a variety of activities that free people safely engage in every day.
And you support imprisoning people for merely doing to themselves what you wouldn’t do to yourself. I’m sorry, but I can’t think of a more inherently un-American philosophy.
>I cannot simply throw a half-ounce of prime weed into my shopping cart
underage kids can not buy beer but can easily get ANY ILLEGAL DRUG, man come back to Earth!!!! If we legalize ALL drugs we will put them under control.
The only country IN THE WORLD where drug use declines is Netherlands. Read about it, it is in public domain.
>but that is primarily because people want to take them
exactly and who are we to tell people what to do?
>are also a very large number of people in jail for burglary, rape, murder, and so on.
Not even remotely so. 50% – for drug use. 50% – for the rest of the crimes.
It is ABSURD.
>conspicuous refusal to acknowledge the harmful effects of drugs.
society tolerates tobacco, alcohol, excessive eating, immobility in front of the screens – all are leading preventable causes of death
Drugs – any of them- kill or injure people mostly because they are sold illegaly and are:
- not clean
- users are not aware that heroin kills ONLY if user also had alcohol or sleeping pills in his system as well as heroine
- users overindulge because they did not get their drugs in the pharmacy with WARNINGS. This goes for cocaine and products based on it and some synthetic drugs
Again- read about drug laws in Netherlands where people are no less motivated then here and possibly much more: at least they are less dependent on imported fossil fuels then we are))
Moral is not at all associated
with drugs been legal or not.
To the contrary: drug policies are immoral because discriminate less harmfull drugs like X, pot, ACID, rooms
and have more harmful drugs available: booze and tobacco
So drug policy as it is contributes to hypocrisy of this modern American socialist state
And illegal trafficking routes WILL BE USED TO BRING IN WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
So if you or your relatives will be dieing from anthrax- don’t be surprised: drug enforcement did it for you. You could stop it but your ignorance prevented you from action.
If you rally care for morality of this society-
contribute somehow it, so frustrated people will not need to hide `in drugs` from the kind of immoral and corrupted reality that is around them and that was caused by socialist subversion taken place for decades.
to LJM
you put it even better then i could
thanks
Dan unfortunately promotes totalitarian point of view
it is a sad reality of decades of subversion. nation is just sick with this(((
“The objective fact is that drug use and abuse is lower in countries where drugs are decriminalized.”
So you argue that decriminalizing drugs causes fewer people to take them – and therefore conversely that illegality increases their use? Does that really make sense to you?
I simply argue that drug use is based on the pleasure they give, that the temptation to experience that pleasure would increase if the inhibition imposed by legal consequences were removed, and that that pleasure ramifies behavior that has a pretty decent tendency to lead to dependency and other consequences of abuse that would not occur in the absence of those habits.
I don’t see how this is a controversial set of inferences. I also accept that illegality establishes another avenue for corruption. So be it: I think it’s an evil that must be tolerated in light of the fact that the evils I believe it prevents are much more dangerous.
I hardly think this is evidence of a totalitarian or a teatotalling sensibility.
Finally, you can site all the studies you want, but studies do not persuade me when it’s just as easy to infer from the supposedly constant level of use and abuse that *the law enforcement regime contains the problem to this extent,* which supports my common sense argument that to weaken or remove the regime would result in an increase of those numbers and the problems associated with them.
It seems to me you that are enthralled with ideology, which is the truest enemy of freedom, amigo.
So you argue that decriminalizing drugs causes fewer people to take them – and therefore conversely that illegality increases their use? Does that really make sense to you?
I’m not “arguing” anything. I’m pointing out an objective, documented fact that disproves your assertion that making drugs legal increases usage. It doesn’t matter what makes sense to you or me, the facts speak for themselves. Your responsibility as a thinking adult, is to discard your arguments as their disproved by objective facts. I can only hope you have the intellectual courage to do this.
I simply argue that drug use is based on the pleasure they give, that the temptation to experience that pleasure would increase if the inhibition imposed by legal consequences were removed, and that that pleasure ramifies behavior that has a pretty decent tendency to lead to dependency and other consequences of abuse that would not occur in the absence of those habits.
And I simply argue that, not only do the objective facts prove your argument to be false, but that it’s none of your business what people do to themselves voluntarily.
So be it: I think it’s an evil that must be tolerated in light of the fact that the evils I believe it prevents are much more dangerous.
So the evils of government corruption are less than the evils of people getting high in the privacy of their own homes? Imprisoning people for getting intoxicated in the privacy of their own homes is less evil than letting them alone? That’s the essence of totalitarianism. And unless you support prohibition for alcohol and tobacco, which harm and kill many times the number of people that illicit drugs to, your position is hypocritical, as well.
It seems to me you that are enthralled with ideology, which is the truest enemy of freedom, amigo.
You reject the objective facts of decreased usage in countries with decriminalization, and the objective fact that most users are not abusers, you support the imprisonment of harmless individuals who use drugs in privacy of their own homes, and you conclude that I’m enthralled with ideology over freedom. Really? That makes as much sense to me as saying 2 + 2 = 5. Prohibitionists have a long history of contempt for objective facts and personal liberty, so I guess I’m not surprised.
Yeah. I doubt they’re objective facts, tough guy. I just read an alternet article about the numbers for US vs. Netherlands drug use, which partly includes the finding that 40.2% of Americans have tried marijuana at some point in their lives, but only 19.8% of Dutch have, where it is essentially legal. *Right.* I guess you’re going to have to be satisfied with regarding me as a crypto-totalitarian prohibitionist, because that study is, like so many “studies,” complete bullshit.
http://www.monitoringthefuture.org/pubs/monographs/vol2_2006.pdf
Using the index on the side, go to Chapter 5 – Figures. The trends all drop between 1976 – 2006 in the age group 18 – 45.
Dan, you really have to find ANYONE who is dutch and talk to them
Pot is totally associated with american idiot turists there)))
Your ignorance makes me look in a different way on presumably your comments on soviet subversion and war plans
if you can not comprehend simple things like effects of war on drugs-
i would not trust your analysis on more sophisticated matter
and again: drug trafficking was developed by kgb since the 50s as the means to smuggle weapons here
this is A MAJOR priority compared to ANYTHING ELSE
So, dan, I’m sure if the studies proved your point, you wouldn’t consider them to be “bullshit.” (This is a lot like arguing with a young-earth creationist.)
But even if all the studies showed that drug use went up when it was legalized, I’d still be for legalization, because I don’t think it’s your job or anybody else’s job to protect me from myself. Now, you might be insecure enough that you require the government’s assistance in keeping you away from the drugs that frighten you, and I think you should be free to work out a contract with anyone you’d like to put you in a prison if you break down and use the scary drugs, if that’s what you think it will take. But it’s nuts (and utterly socialist) to suggest that you need to put other people in prison so you can save them from drugs that scare you.
And I’m not “satisfied” regarding you as a totalitarian. I wish it wasn’t an apt description as I think the world would be a better place with fewer totalitarians. But I think it’s the best description of someone who thinks the government should throw people into prison for doing something politically incorrect to their bodies (which, contrary to your position, you don’t own).
“Dan, you really have to find ANYONE who is dutch and talk to them”
Why? They don’t like weed?
Kabud – the Soviet strategy for drugs is not primarily to deliver bio and chemical weapons: it is to demoralize our society through their influence and also to produce a ton of revenue for “organized crime” (the KGB). You saw the Bezmenov section when he went to visit the Maharishi Yogi, right? When he says that KGB’s interest is in Americans “zonked out on marijuana and hashish,” instead of healthy Americans alert to the problems that confront them?
There are presumably other ways to get weapons into this country, especially given the immigration routes.
JLM – look man, here’s the thing. I know and you know that everyone can get drugs if they look hard enough. Have you ever gotten caught? I haven’t; the closest I got was a detective in NYC one night who flashed his badge and said “don’t you think you should just go home? it’s pretty late.” True story. The issue isn’t the ability to take drugs if you want to. And even if it was legal, plenty of people would be able to get them outside the confines of the law. You don’t think there’d still be meth labs, people growing weed, people bringing in cocaine? At the point of legality it simply becomes a matter of price: government regulation, industrial production, farming, employees, lawyers, brokers, marketers – all these cost money in the USA. There will always be cheaper ways to get it, and presumably these people will be breaking the law. Yes, perhaps they won’t go to jail, I grant you that. But if I may be so bold, what is the prison population of the USA? 2 million people? 2 million out of 300 million? Frankly that indicates to me that these people are assholes. I know for a fact that the justice system is very lenient with drug offenders with personal use quantities on them (for example, my brother is a heroin addict). I’m also a lawyer.
Second of all, the regulations would not, as some argue, make the product clean – surely it Would make some of it clean, but honestly when have you ever taken bad drugs? I think I’ve maybe smoked PCP weed like twice. When you get coke cut with something else, 999% of the time it’s just bad coke – it doesn’t have friggin rat poison in it.
I can take care of myself, and I trust my own abilities. I also therefore presume that other people can do the same. But I know plenty – p.l.e.n.t.y. – of people whom drugs have distorted, which have clearly stunted their development. People are shitheads – look, you think I’M a shithead. I know addicts who’ve ruined their own lives and the lives of those around them. Just because you can’t enforce the problem away doesn’t mean the law ought not reflect an appreciation for the damage drugs, themselves, do. Since I live in a *society* of people, and not on an island of my own, I do think I have some interest in whether to go from illegality and enforcement to legality and… who knows what?
One fundamental problem with the Amsterdam comparison is that Amsterdam is a *tiny* insignificant little country. America has 300 million people – and did you look at those charts? Did you notice that the trend lines go down, and then around about 1991 they start going back up again, especially for marijuana? Know what that’s about? Did you ever hear the album The Chronic?
Look, I realize we aren’t going to agree about this. I only provided that link because I decided to look up statistics to be a good sport – and I went to the DEA because when I tried to look up that recent WHO study I couldn’t find it. In my opinion, based on my experience with drugs and with people, I’ll stick by my basic sense that the power of drugs’ attraction will prove to be very bad indeed if legalized, and I prefer to not radically experiment with society just on the basis of your commitment to freedom and some studies of 10,000 people. Sorry.
The current drug policy in the United States is just another symptom of the Nanny State. Smoking bans, bans on internet Gambling, Limits on Strip Clubs, cell phone restriction while driving, etc. offend me as a thinking adult who is perfectly able to make their own decision regarding “vice.” This is particularly true since cheese burgers, which probably harm more americans than all these other vices put together, remain legal, LOL.
I am also involved in the chronic Pain Community where interference by the DEA in the Doctor/Patient relationship has grown increasingly intrusive. So much so that a friend’s sister, who has terminal cancer, has limited access to pain medications because she may become “addicted.”
So it is not only illicit drugs that the Government wants to “protect” us from, but also from certain prescription drugs that they feel may be abused.
There are 2 bills waiting a vote in the House of Representatives, S.980, & H.R. 6353 that will severely limit American’s access to telemedicine (hurting, in particular rural communities) and will impact our ability to make medical choices vis a vis prescription drugs. Both of these Bills have bipartisan sponsers, although S.980 is the brainchild of that Idiot Dianne Feinstein. I suggest anyone interested in Liberty should write their Congressman and urge them to vote NO on these restrictive Bills.
One more thing dan, I suppose that I didn’t make it quite clear, but I think that the number of hard core addicts has remained constant for decades, while the numbers of Americans who try drugs or use drugs “recreastionally”
may flucuate. I honestly don’t see millions of Americans, if drug use is decriminalized, becoming hard-core drug addicts, just as most Americans don’t become drunks because alcohol is readily available.
Brillant posts btw, LJM.
to Dan, you right about phase of DEMORALIZATION
Bezmenov recorded it in 1984. It, the demoralization phase, was ALREADY OVER.
Today is 2008. Phase of DESTABILISATION is getting almost done: check out
the markets,
gas prices,
banks,
So:
Today drug trafficking is
ONLY ABOUT KILLING YOU WITH ANTHRAX
even money is no issue any more
organized crime also is long ago under kgb command
so lets PRAY
Dan: on dutch
of course THEY HATE IT. I have several friends in Amsterdam)) and in Copenhagen, one actually works for M$ there))
i suppose you smoked weed, well, me too, i actually used to like it up until i got bored with it when i had unlimited supply
so these days i just exercise outdoors and go to techno parties 100% sober cause i hate alcoholic intoxication and dont do any stupid drugs at all
i like girls thought and they seem not to hate me either)))))
kabud – gah, i know man – you’re right about that, i think. i don’t know, what do you really think about all this Golitsyn type stuff? do you think the gray terror is part of the destabilization strategy? what do you make of putin’s visit to saudi arabia a few months ago where he offered weapons plants, commercial deals, and nuclear technology sharing to Crown Prince Abdullah?
the more i read into this stuff – have you ever read Edward Jay Epstein’s book Deception: the War Between the CIA and KGB, good book! – the more i read this stuff the more freaked out i get.
but the more freaked out i get the more i suspect i’m giving in to conspiracy theory thinking. what do you think? i’ve never actually talked to another person about this!
Dan, it’s obvious we’ll agree to disagree on this, but I don’t think you’re a shithead. I think you’re stubbornly hanging onto your opinions based partly on your emotional response to the notion of a society where you can get heroin over the counter. But I’ll remind you of just a few facts. Just like with alcohol, most people who use drugs in America use them responsibly. That’s a fact from our own anti-drug government.
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k8/newUseDepend/newUseDepend.htm
I don’t doubt that the reason you want to keep drugs illegal is because you want to prevent what addicts do to themselves, but again, we know for a fact that most users are not addicts and don’t destroy themselves.
We both know that tens of thousands of people every year kill themselves with alcohol. Now, if you don’t think alcohol should be illegal, you need to ask yourself why. For me, it’s the exact same reason I think drugs should be legal and recreational driving should be legal and pre-marital sex and adultery should be legal. Simply because some people destroy their lives doing risky things, the rights of the responsibly acting individual should not be infringed upon. Again, one of the things that make freedom so beautiful is that it’s dangerous. It requires that we be the best people we can be. When our personal freedom is limited, the government is saying, “Not only can’t you make good decisions, but you don’t even have to worry about it anymore. We’ll make them for you.”
We have a government that tells sick people who find their best relief from marijuana that they can’t use it because some people abuse it. That logic isn’t applied to morphine. That’s because with something like the War on Drugs, it’s impossible to be logical. It’s impossible for people who are loyal to a failed idea to be logical. It’s true with communism and it’s true with the War on (Some) Drugs. The essence of the drug war is that more government is good, that government can save the individual from the bad decisions the individual will most likely make if he or she tries drugs.
But wait! The government has found year after year that an individual is LESS likely to make bad decisions than good decisions if he or she tries drugs. Again, there is no logic that can work on a policy loyalist.
If we want to reduce drug abuse, then using our resources wisely (meaning that a wise person abandons approaches that don’t work), while respecting the rights of the vast majority of individuals who use drugs responsibly, is the only approach that makes any sense practically. And it’s the only approach that philosophically embraces American ideals (valuing the rights of the individual as much or more than that of the collective). It’s sad that many countries in Europe have embraced those ideals in regard to drugs, while the U.S. acts like a socialist nanny-state.
Here are some links I hope you explore in no particular order.
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php
http://www.hoover.org/bios/mcnamara.html
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/index2.htm
http://www.reason.com/staff/show/128.html
(radical_moderate: thanks!)
to Dan
man it is all reality.
See, i get my education in USSR,
my grandfather went to the Highest party School in the 50s, in Moscow,
through my whole life it happened that i was slightly exposed to the highest ranks of sovdep and Chinese leadeship: member of a family, who was a doctor treated krushev’s children, a girlfriend was a granddaughter of second in command to MAO
it is all very strange how my life got twisted around those figures.
Well, u may ask WHY i mention?
But you probably figured it out yourself.
It was a ground creating to the answer to your question.
What do i think:
i think Golitsyn is a must read for ANY sociology, history, or anything like this course in college and a must taught subject in high schools
I have exact confirmations to all his ideas coming from my life experience.
He just put in english things that we were taught since grade 1 in school: world communist class struggle in the west will deepen, revolution will take place, soviet military is NUMBER ONE and so on.
See what i mean?
And since i had a chance to have a grasp of mentality of people in high circles of sovdep:
it corresponded as well.
Soviet -Chinese split: 100% right. I have a friend who’s grand father traveled to China in th 50-60 on a special mission. he also made my friends learn Art of War!!!
Chinese girlfriend used to live in Moscow. KGB was workin with her for years: they persued her to go for a visit to Beijing(80s)
then she met me and wo-ala )) told them to f***k off))) i can imagine how they hated me: i am proud of course.
Grey terror: sure.
Just remember WHEN 9-11 took place: right in the middle of dot.com debacle. U will appriciate the timing i am sure
My friend is probably the number one researcher on Golitsyn matter in the World. He is also in the list of prominent American anticommunists. I am proud to know him. You probably read his page too. I put some links)))
Things that he tells are sufficiently more insightfully the anything else on the matter.
Bottom line:
around 6 month ago i was shocked when he told me exactly how situation will develop:
economic problems will go overboard, a war in the middle east, more economic disasters, gray terror attacks, possible extermination of up to 100 mil of Americans, Chinese and kremlenoids divide USA territory.
These are their PLANS. I know they have it.
But we may and should stop them.
So lets plant the seeds: we actually may save the world this time. I am not exagerating.
Dan
yes of course:
Edward Jay Epstein wrote a good book. I read it online, may be it was a long article, but it is one of the best on the subject
to LJM
Drug war facts is a very good resource of info on this
on alcohol: if you think how many people and how much and how often drink:
basically it is the word REGULAR.
Adults – mostly all of us- drink on regular basis.
More or less.
Figures are staggering.
Typical young man drinks couple of times a week and drinks heavily once a week. Not everybody, not in any country, i mean like an average, Joe Doe.
and we have statistics as well.
Now my point:
alcohol is widely used
but compared to its consumption figures damage that is done is not so big!!!!
So we have to keep in mind this: what kind of damage alcohol brings
Alcohol kills brain cells, we all know it. Pot on the contrary does not kill brain cells: it only sorta massages them.
The diagrams in drug war facts speak for themselves but we also have to think on our own.
I hate cigarettes and alcohol. I never use them. I like pot. Too bad for me. On the other hand I never suffered from PMS.
Sincerely, Janice M. Bonser