It’s not taquiyya because I’m not Muslim (I’m an agnostic, patriotic American, though some raving anti-semitic actually accused me of being an Israeli cyberwarrior on defensetech, which I find hilarious). If it comes to the clash of civilizations, you won’t find me with the protesters, but rather on the battlefield doing my duty as an American.

I also agree with the idea that perhaps the number of true moderate muslims is as small as 2%, but that should not deter an effort to “reach out”. The effort I describe is actually not “reaching out” at all. It is a pure lobbying effort.

Here is an analogy: congress repeatedly bails out the auto industry because the auto industry lobby is the only force throwing money and opinion at the problem. The auto industry has money, influence, and has seized legitimacy. Is congress inherently bad and unworthy of any counter lobbying attempt because it has been blinded by the auto industry lobby consistently?

Similarly, the Saudi lobby is the only lobby with money, influence, and has seized legitimacy. It lobbies the American congress, but more importantly, it lobbies the Muslim people in every mosque and madrassah it funds. As to having Muslims repent and convert to another faith, that’s called apostasy and it’s punishable by death in a society that has been totally poisoned by Saudi Wahhabism. Even if some other form of Islam tried or attempted to gain ascendancy, it would quickly be flattened by the Saudi lobby. (this is starting to sound like one of those delusional anti-israeli lobby rants except it’s an anti Saudi rant, lol)

solution: wipe out the Saudi lobby, supply funds to appropriately researched true moderate sects that have long been oppressed by the Wahhabis. All we have to do is make the soil fertile for other options and the seed of freedom will sprout.

(as to how to practically negate the Saudi lobby, their madrasahs, and their mosques: ideas are welcome)

-Parthicus

Now, I appreciate that there is a small group of Muslims who are too decent to adhere to jihad, but I am not interested in reaching out to them to attempt to “modernize” Islam. That is a fool’s errand. Islam itself is just too deeply flawed. It is violent, barbaric evil. If you want to reach out to these modernists, have them repent of Islam and convert to another faith.

The fear of us getting into a clash of cultures is likewise ridiculous, for we are already there. Islam, by its nature, is at war with the world. That’s the reality. I can’t tell if your plea is merely ignorance, or more taquiyya. “Oh, please, sir, don’t hold all Islam as bad. There are 30M of us who are good. That’s a whole 2%! There might be another 6% out there, too!” Color me underwhelmed.

I read Jihad watch and I’m fully aware of the verse of the sword and the policy of abrogation. I strongly support Wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I’ve also studied the military history of Islam and am fully aware that it is spread almost entirely by conquest. And, I’ve been watching the Israeli Palestine conflict since I was 8, and my support for the Israelis is iron clad.

When I say moderate muslims, i don’t mean CAIR or MSA or all those sunni muslims groups funded by the Saudis that run around pretending to be moderate but actually practice stealth jihad. Anything funded by the Saudis or following a Sunni literal interpretation of the Koran will ultimately be a fundamentalist organization masquerading as moderate. When I say moderate, I’m talking about Shia groups that believe in the “hidden” meaning of the Koran beyond the literal interpretations. Take the Nizari Ismaili sect under their Aga Khan IV for example, I have found no evidence of any fundamentalism or stealth jihad within this sect. Do not take my word for it, for I will admit that while I personally know members of this sect, I have not done thorough research.

From a practical stand point, all this “islam is satanic” and “islam is warlike” talk simply drives us into a corner. It is difficult for western society to equate Islam with Communism or Nazism because it is a religion (even though the levels of anti-semitism and the political nature of fundamentalist Islam do indeed make a as large a threat to Western values). I think it would be more practical to ban Saudi Wahhabi funding and fund our own moderate muslims (that are not closet fundamentalists).

Now, someone is going to say that I’m ridiculous because there are almost no moderate muslims. There are still at least 30 million moderate muslims out of 1 billion. And possibly another 100 million + that can be swayed if we put our full effort into breaking the Wahhabi Saudi monopoly on Islamic funding. These people are considered apostates by the Saudi monopoly on Islam and I believe are not even allowed to go on the Hajj. Is that not worth the effort to bring these people actively over to our side and fund and insurgency against the Wahhabis? 130 million + allies is a great deal, even if it is not enough to prevent the clash of civilizations. It is too early to write off all the Muslims as our enemies. Even Nazi Germany had partisans.

-parthicus

You can not be a serious student of even the most basic tenets of Islam; great God, its very existence. You sport an elementary understanding of Islam much like our newly elected President; believing we will be able to reason with so-called modern Islamic intellectuals. Or more accurately, ‘vicious brutes hiding behind a religious zeal for Allah’.

By what measure, is it so difficult to understand that the canons of Islamic sharia law do not allow for any other existence, other than Islam, that is. The Imams hold your average Muslim’s feet to eternal fire and damnation if they don’t show or profess the same zeal for Islam and jihad as their most ardent followers. When you have that kind of brainwashing, you don’t need restraints or drugs. Especially when people want to be on good terms with God. In this case, it happens to be Muhammad’s interpretation of God. …That’s a whole ‘nother discourse.

No doubt, holding their hand and sermonizing about their barbaric methods will cause them to cease and desist.

With such gentle chastisement, my barbaric response earlier is drowning in fuzzy feelings of love. Could this be remorse I’m feeling, no… wait… yup, it’s the barbecue pork I ingested earlier by the bucketful.

Try asking the Israelis how far they’ve gotten. Ask the Twin Tower survivors and the victims families. Knock it off Parthicus, Islam doesn’t need another useful idiot.

Please read ALL when you have the time and inclination:

http://michellemalkin.com/2006/09/29/the-forbidden-op-eds/

Even though everything in Ibrahim’s articles are no doubt true and Islam is indeed a warlike and xenophobic religion, outright saying these things and accusing Islam of being a illegitimate religion and evil simply crystallizes western hatred of muslims and muslim hatred of westerners.

This in turn makes the clash of civilizations inevitable. Why is that bad? Because we in the modern west do not have the unity or capacity to win such a war. We will not unite together with the liberals and the Europeans to destroy Mecca, attack 1 billion people, and basically fight World War II against all the Muslims of the world. This will simply not happen because we are not all conservative Christians in the west. There are agnostics, not so conservative Christians, Jews, Atheists, liberals, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. who will not be united by the idea of Islam as a monolithic Satanist religion. The Muslims will ultimately wear us down while winning the hearts and minds of various marginalized peoples.

This fight does not have to be the West vs. Islam. Rather it can be a fight of Modern Islam vs. Medieval Islam. Medieval Islam is the true nature of Islam that everyone has been talking about in the comments that is deceitful in war and xenophobic. Worse, it is the Islam that is practiced by a large proportion of Muslims, but that does not mean that it cannot be defeated by ways other than outright war. Modern Islam is weak and powerless, but it does exist in some sects (Ismaeli Shia, Sufism, and another sect which I cannot recall right now). The existence (no matter how small a number) of modern, tolerant, integrated Muslims suggests that we may propel it to prosperity through socioeconomic and hearts and minds operations. Determined military resistance against Medieval Islam combined with strong support for Modern Islam can succeed in convincing Muslims to join more successful modern sects. Oh, and somehow fixing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would probably deprive radical Islam of many recruits (this is obviously a very difficult, but necessary part of this effort)

We should not allow Islamic xenophobia to trigger a similar medieval hatred of Muslims in ourselves (this would be victory of Islamic medievalism over us). After all, we live in the modern west. We must utilize our modernity to our strength and not fight a medieval style war against medievalists.

-Parthicus

Your position is ridiculous. We in the West value our oaths. Such things are one of the foundations of a civilized society. If I promise you, or myself, something, I must do all I can do to follow through. Do I fail, then I must do all I can to make amends, to atone. It s called honor. It is not your hubris-filled Islamic version of honor. It is about my integrity, being true to myself. It is a matter of character.

When other men can depend upon you to honor your word, then they can make plans of their own with greater certitude. They may undertake greater risks, because the risk is diminished. This is why the West has dominated the rest of the world. We can accomplish greater things, because we can work together in confidence.

One can do no such thing with a Muslim. They smile in your face and rage in their hearts. Like Lucifer. Like Mohammed. Snakes.

“Victory establishes the veritas of Islam.”

That is precisely my impression, too, Fred.

In reading Rodney Stark´s magnificent book titled “Discovering God” (chapter 8 – Islam: God and State), I realized that, contrary to what mostly happened in Christianized lands, in Islamized ones a Muslim military conquest, with the subsequent political supremacy, always came before the gradual Islamization of the subdued population.

Worse still, Islam came upon Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, whose respective faiths were centuries-long established traditions, each of which with a much more sophisticated theology and a far better moral code.

Whereas in pre-Colombian America, to give an example of military conquest preceding the spread of Christianity through peaceful preaching, martyrdom or free reasoning, the Christian faith replaced satanic cults, much to the relief of enslaved and opressed peoples; or introduced itself to cannibalistic warring tribes all across South America.

The more I read and ponder about the prophet Muhammad and Islam the more I wonder who actually was the angel who took Muhammad through his “Night Journey” in 620 CE.