Wanted: An Intelligent Debate Over Immigration Reform
If you thought the debate over health care reform was polarized, emotional, and fraught with roadblocks, just wait until Congress re-ignites — perhaps as early as in the next several days — the debate over immigration reform.
The spark is likely to come from Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-NY, who plans to introduce a comprehensive immigration reform bill in the coming weeks. Schumer has spelled out the goals of the legislation: curtailing illegal immigration, achieving control of our borders, creating a biometric employee verification system, requiring illegal immigrants to become legalized, keeping family reunification a priority, encouraging the best and brightest to immigrate to the United States while discouraging temporary guest workers, and making it easier to come legally.
Those who remember how badly Congress mishandled the immigration reform issue the last time it took a swing at it — in Spring 2007 — can’t be eager for an encore performance.
Last time, there was too much name-calling and posturing and too little compromise and flexibility. There was too much pandering to the extremes in each party and too little time spent trying to understand the other side’s concerns. Finally, there was too much all-or-nothing negotiating and too little willingness to settle for half a loaf as opposed to none. The American people didn’t do much better as they argued out the issue in barbershops and at water coolers, on talk radio and in the blogosphere.
That being the case, there are things that were missing in the immigration debate the last time, and it would behoove both sides to make sure they were in the mix in the next go-around.
Accountability. Holding average Americans accountable for helping to create the illegal immigration problem by relying on illegal labor for a softer existence and better quality of life. If you don’t have an illegal immigrant working for you as a gardener, housekeeper, or nanny, chances are you know someone who does.
Empathy. Reminding Americans that most of them are just two or three generations off the boat, and that — contrary to what they tell themselves — their immigrant grandparents were likewise scorned and treated as scapegoats, even if they came legally. Then, as now, the concern wasn’t how they came but who they were.
“By adding a dash of each of these ingredients, lawmakers and the public might have a productive debate this time around and get that much closer to fixing a system that everyone admits is broken.”
Navarrette, go cook in a restaurant, and stop polluting this website with whiny (i.e. bigotted faux-”can’t-we-all-just-get-along?”) screeds.
You’re right; we can’t round up and deport 12 million illegal aliens. What we can do – and should do – is throw their employers in jail and level massive fines on them for violating scores of tax and labor laws. Jobs for illegals will dry up very quickly, and they’ll self-deport and stop coming.
And please; there is no significant racism against Hispanics. Quite the contrary; one of the main reasons many prefer employing Hispanic illegal aliens is because the only other alternative is to hire American blacks. And there are a hell of a lot of well-to-do white Anglos who prefer to have basically white Mexicans cleaning their house and watching their children.
I did not then and do not now consider it posturing to require accurate use of language (it is ILLEGAL immigration that is a problem, not “immigration”) and enforcement of our existing laws.
A younger generation with a lousy work ethic and a sense of entitlement poses a greater threat to this country than illegal immigration.
Well, at least there is one thing you and I agree on Rueben.
Now if you excuse me, I’ve got some kids to chase off my lawn.
The ONLY bad immigration is illegal immigration.
A simple, albeit Mencken solution.
Get the Department of State and Congress out of the process. No bigoted restrictions by Race, Religion, Color or Creed. Make the only requirement for immigration having a job waiting. Then turn loose the many employment companies. If an American Employer has a job that they CANNOT fill with a US citizen, let them contract with an employment agency to fill that job. The Employment agency then does all the normal background checks. The new hire comes to America and works for a predetermined period at their new job before joining the general population.
That and draconian laws against the hiring of illegals would do the trick. Not going to happen because neither Congress nor State will give up the control. It would work.
The arguments over illegal immigration mainly focus on what affect they have on the United States and that is where the focus should be but no one talks about how the massive outflow of workers affects mainly Latin America. Most Latin American countries are democracies but highly oligarchical democracies where a small elite run the government and businesses. There have been green shoots of middle classes but they are highly vulnerable. Power and money still rest in at the established top with any middle class getting left over scraps. Mobility is tar like. Exporting all these people to the U.S relieves the pressure valve of discontent among the masses at their permanent low class, low income status in the face of great wealth at the top not only through opportunity but because these workers send home billions of dollars from their cash under the table jobs (no taxes but huge benefits!!!!!!). The oligarchies stay in place, people are satiated but these countries never move forward. They never change. They never improve. They never move beyond second world status. They are like massive welfare recipients and the cracks are showing, as they do with any society that never evolves, through the increased statism and violent drug wars. Ruben, if you want Latin America to move forward and become first world, stop the outflow of workers and make these oligarchs responsible for their own people and the health their own societies.
Some great posts so far leveling the race baiter Navarrette.
One thing I’d like to add is that conservatives shouldn’t endorse all legal immigration. I’ve heard feckless Republican politicians state that conservatives only oppose illegal immigration. Not true. The Immigration Act of 1965 which is turning us into a third world country should be repealed.
Legal Muslim immigration has replaced terrorism as their best way to proceed with Islamic jihad against our country.
ALL MUSLIM immigration should be stopped!
Illegal immigration is slavery light. Working with many legal and illegal workers I see how they are used, they have no rights. Such as recourse for being used as slave labor. The person puts up with how the employer dictates or gets deported. You say we can not deport 12 milllion. I ask how many police, sheriffs, and highway patrol are we now paying with tax money. They can do the job. You say 12 million, I say closer to 20 to 25 million. How is the job situation – could not citizens use this work? At least they would have right not given to illegals and the money would not be sent to Mexico.
Stop the Invasion.
One thing you are excellent at is pissing people off. You are such a bigot you cannot see your own racism towards “whitey”. You make it sound as if the majority of American people have enough pocket change hanging around to just call on Juan or Jose or Maria to do their bidding to make life” softer” when the real truth is the majority of naturally born Americans struggle from pay check to pay check.
By your or “you know someone who does” is accusatory and sanctimonious, I’ll bet you personally “know some illegals as well” what the hell does that prove? Have you turned them in lately or are you sympathetic? (no need to answer that was a rhetorical question).
On “empathy” your right it was all about who they were! when my grandparents came. There used to be signs up “Irish need not apply” . NOW if a store keeper were to put up a sign that said ” illegal Mexicans need not apply” he would be sighted or worse arrested for violating some alien’s civil protection not “right” under OUR constitution.
On honesty !! Look in the mirror vato! How many illegally working Hispanic parents leave unsupervised or il supervised children at home to join “barrio” gangs because they cannot see any other way to get the material things they want so badly here in this country. They know that mom and pops busting ass at two or three jobs ain’t ever gonna get it for them? So instead of finishing in the schools that their parents don’t pay for in taxes they become part of the social ill of a lousy work ethic, a sense of entitlement, and instant gratification society. For every one illegal parent who takes a teenagers job away from a teenager, he leaves at least three entitlement crazed and lousy work ethic children at home prepping for his or her gang initiation.
Courage, nuance, and colorblindness go hand in hand. The problem is the unions, like the hotel and restaurant workers unions, who thrive on illegal workers as members.
As far as the border and colorblindness: The border is an open wound in America’s life sustaining blood flow, there is no control and America is bleeding out. People are offended by not color or ethnicity but by the boldness of how illegals come and go as easily as butter flows on hot toast.
Hispanics especially Mexicans fail to see the self destructive tendencies of their border crossing abuse. They show a keen sense of self learning when it comes to committing the illegal act of illegal entry. But when it comes to conforming to the legal rules of the social society into which they inject themselves they fain “estupido” “no comprendo” “poor Jose”. When at least they should “fake it as legal”.
Not only do they abuse the border, they then insist on abuse of housing laws, license and insurance laws, tax requirements.
Rather than trying to emulate legal residents, they emulate the other “Juan” who figured out in what state to get a drivers license with no automotive insurance requirement or residency proof. What landlord doesn’t require every adult to be on a lease, what office of social security is selling SS cards with new numbers.
What neighboorhoods they can boldly move about conducting illegal entrepreneurial criminal endeavors such as illegally reproduced DVD’s and CD’s for sale, unlicensed food vending, illegal cock fighting, muleing for drug dealers, illegal cocina economico’s” operating out of housing units.
They don’t come and attempt to embrace the American culture” they embrace the subculture built before them on years of self sustaining illegal activity built on American restraint within the confines of rural townships and urban megalopolises, and this begins to fester over time because of its own cancerous growth through overconsumption. They move in and destroy even more previously declining neighborhoods by turning them into barrio’s just like home. So much for the betterment of life.
My own personal experience has been being called a racist, when managing apartments . Because I insisted that the number of adults be kept to the number on the lease, and the number of children overnighting be kept to the number declared as “children of leasee” on the agreement” . And that Tio Jose” be gone after 15 days of visiting. And not come back for at least another six months.
Some how my Mexican tenants always seem to be expecting an “exception” to the rules because they are “Hispanic” and I am white. My African American tenants don’t expect the exception nor do the Chinese and Cambodian tenants whom I hardly ever see. Oh but I forgot they are legally in this country. My Mexican tenants are not, but I can’t ask them that question or discriminate against them when renting to them for being illegal to which they volunteered that status to me.
Restraint and Common sense! The American citizen has shown restraint for many many years and more so since Jimmy Carter’s blunderbust of opening the flood gates. it has gotten them no where in the situation of illegal entrants.
And as for common sense! There are just too many of them to deport!! Hog wash!!. You make it sound as if the “they are to big to fail” mentality is applicable to the illegal entry population.
A surge of deportation would send a message that illegal activity is unwanted, combined with E-Verify for all employers. The SAFE act is a good start toward culling out illegally working aliens, by targeting businesses as well as the illegal population . It would prevent return illegal employee’s . It is also by the way is non discriminatory so all illegals, white Canadians, Arabs, Euro-trash, and all would be effected and righteously so.
Once again Navarrette you have turned an immigration problem into a cultural war or words of “white v Mexican”
By the way your sarape is showing
As long as the self judges itself by itself, thereby finding itself to be good, we will have sincerity ruling the day. This is problematic because people have been sincerely wrong.
For people to look at the same thing, and come away with vastly different conclusions shows the high price of usurping authority.
Therefore, the avoidance of measuring conclusions to the standard that never changes, this avoidance cheats all of us.
So, Ruben, how come all the fixation of Spanish and Hispanics? Because they are the overwhelming source of illegal immigration, and that illegal immigration has now poisoned the well of legal immigration. I have asked you again and again to explain why Hispanics, and particularly Mexicans, should be so priveledged to jump the line and go right on in when thousands of other people, from other nations and cultures, have to wait in line, fill out forms, and pay fees? Why should our immigration be so preposterously lopsided from one place, legal or illegal? Is Mexico special? Is this really where Mexicans belong more than Korean or Thai immigrants? It’s not like the US cannot attact people from around the world to do the low end jobs, I just want to know why you think Mexico can bum rush the gates and claim 90% of the opportunity? I know that answer, and so do you, and that’s why you will continue to avoidspeaking on the matter in your new, honest debate on immigration.
Immigration is a tough one for me. I was affected twice by it. Once my own family were immigrants from europe in 1916 from Ireland.. and now I too, am a foreigner in another country. One thing I have learned though, its tough to be a foreigner when your surrounded by hate and prejudice. And oh…an intelligent debate? Sure you got the right place? good article, thanks.
“jobs that… would have been done by young people, who today have no desire to do them.”
I’m sorry this is inaccurate. What it should read is “jobs thatwould have been done by young people, who today have no desire to do them FOR THE PITIFUL PAY THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ACCEPT.”
But then that would be admitting that they really are taking jobs away from young or unskilled CITIZENS.
Better to just pretend that the jobs can’t be done for less. Perhaps that drives the cost of lettuce up a bit, but hey, that’s the free market at work.
2. Numerian:
You sir, are a genius. Its like when my Mexican-born wife complains about “flojo” blacks milling about street corners. I say to her you should bow and and thank them, for it is their laziness (not all of them as I known to grate on her and her relatives from time to time) that created opportunities for you guys.
My take on the 1965 immigration reforms is not that the USA purposely sought to de-whiten the country (also remember that Europe was in the halcyon days of something-for-nothing socialism and bar-the-door Communism, and not likely to produce washed masses yearning to be free -at least until future generations decided “no more”). I believe someone in the Johnson Administration told him he needed a “safety valve” of cheap labor lest the native-born poor started gaming the Great Society system.
#6
Fear of even more-left leaning replacement governments or those who more openly court Islamic/Russian/Chinese influrence (a la Chavez) probably keep the whole safety-valve system in place.
#the Gary’s:
Calling out illegals for seeking the friendly business establishments, landlords, and towns is like calling out native Americans for descending upon Texas and other low-tax, low regulation states.
#12.
You can always address that in the next legislation – if you could exclude Chinese (1884) and reduce European (1965) immigration to some twenty-percent of all legislation, you could assign some “under-20″ percentage to the combined mass of Latin American countries, restore some numbers
If Mexicans are such hard workers, and so uplifting for the country they land in, why hasn’t Mexico thrived?
This is rich, coming from Mr. La Raza himself.
Navarrette hates Anglo Americans as much as he loves Illegal Hispanics. Why does this La Raza flunky blame the American people for the Illegal Criminals that sneak across our borders…I hope our idiot Congress Criminals try to ram the Amnesty in this year…the result will be the end of the Illegal Emigrants in this country…they will either self deport or be buried here!
I was going to read this, then seeing who the author was I knew I would just be subjected to a anti-white racist screed.
So I skipped it. And went to the only worthwhile part.. the comment section.
It’s funny how flexibility and compromise about the substantive policy points come out from the pro-legal immigration side, while the attitudinal shifts come from the pro-illegal immigration side.
Before there is a deal, two pre-requisites need to be met:
-Consistent enforcement of current law
-Securing of our borders
Once we know that ICE can be trusted to enforce laws and that we have a mechanism to prevent a new influx of illegals, then real negotiations can begin. Anything short of meeting these pre-requisites is capitulation by the pro-legal immigration side.
I’m not even going to read this article from Navarette. all of his articles are the same – graying of the lines between LEGAL Immigrants and ILLEGAL ALIENS.
there’s no need for immigration debate but there is a need to stop ILLEGAL ALIENS crossing the border. the immigration system rules are more than adequate to weed out those who do not deserve to enter this country, the SECURITY of the border on the other hand are full of holes and is actually the only thing that needs to get fix.
Navarette always use achievements of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS in trying to prove that his call for amnesty for ILLEGAL ALIENS is just. nothing could be farther from the truth.
again Legal Immigrants are ok, illegal aliens are the cause of the problem and there shouldn’t be any debate about that.
‘An Intelligent Debate..’ and Navarette at the helm.. oxymoron.
If Mexicans are such hard workers, and so uplifting for the country they land in, why hasn’t Mexico thrived?
The Mexican government is thoroughly corrupt, and has created a system that encourages their best workers to come here, because there are so few jobs there.
Harsh reality: illegal immigrants get terribly abused by employers, who use them to drive down wages for unskilled or low skilled workers. In the 1960s, a lot of the crops in California’s central valley were picked by college students. Two of my sisters and my brother did it; a friend who is now an electrical engineer did it. The absence of illegal aliens would drive up wages–and my guess is that much of the weak work ethic that Navarette is accusing young Americans of having evaporated over the last few months.
I would be a lot more impressed with Navarette’s concern for illegal aliens being abused by employers if he wasn’t pushing for a law that will reward those employers with cheap labor.
If you don’t have an illegal immigrant working for you as a gardener, housekeeper, or nanny, chances are you know someone who does.
You really do need to get out and spend some time with people that work for a living. Hanging around millionaire Democrats has warped your perception. Even when I lived in California, I didn’t know anyone who had an illegal alien gardener, housekeeper, or nanny. We had a gardener for a while, but he was born in America. Housekeeper? Nanny? Who has those? What are you talking about?
Poor Citizen:
Immigration is a tough one for me. I was affected twice by it. Once my own family were immigrants from europe in 1916 from Ireland.. and now I too, am a foreigner
Really, Poor Citizen, you were alive in 1916? Huh. Now, some of my ancestors came in 1906, legally, and learned english and worked hard. They were very well liked by their neighbors. They were never rich, but they had a good home and a business, and they paid their taxed like good citizens, and their kids worked hard in school (in english, no less). No one ever suggested they shouldn’t be allowed. But then, silly them, doing it all “legally”
True:
The article (Ruben*) neglects the largest and most objectionable industries that are users of illegal aliens: low-skill assembly and construction trades. The responses neglect the most obvious solution: bring back (by reduced regulations, protectionism, or both) low and medium skill manufacturing in sufficient numbers to absorb the native-born unemployed. You wont mind the illegal immigrant so long as he sweeps the floor while you enjoy the fruits of your well-compensated higher skills (thats how Henry Ford got African-Americans into Ford plants without major upheaval, basically by having them do some of the dirtiest jobs that the white employees would be loath to do at any wage).
* must suck to be named Ruben or Rubin (Jennifer) on Pajamasmedia – like having a kick me sign on your back
1) No amnesty for illegals, not ever.
1a) Encourage legal immigration of desirables: those with degrees aand skilled trades, with NO quota limits on Europeans (meaning quota preferences for Third Worlders).
2) No anchor babies. Mamacita has a choice: take her bambino back to Mexico, or leave it here for adoption
3) Criminal penalties including jail time for employers who knowingly hire illegals.
4) Criminal penalties for any and every person who aids and abets illegal immigration, including those simps who leave caches for them in the desert.
5) Complete cutoff of Federal funds for any municipality or state which declares itself a ‘sanctuary’ or otherwise attempts to thwart Federal immigration law.
6) Not one penny of taxpayer money given to or spent on behalf of illegals, period (except the costs of deportation).
7) Build a fance along the border. And top and front the fence with razor wire in depth. And lay minefields along the fence. And build towers along the fence, with machine guns in the towers, and soldiers behind the guns.
5. John “birther” Samford:
My case:
Make the only requirement for immigration having a job waiting. YES
…
The new hire comes to America and works for a predetermined period at their new job before joining the general population. YES (had to wait 7 years to get my LPR)
Now I need to wait 5 more years before I can become a citizen.
BTW my wife is still waiting for her LPR.
12 years to become a citizen via legal route. USCIS/ DOS do not make it easy for legal immigrants.
#28, I was thinking 5 years total. My modest proposal raises the hackles of the bigots, who hide behind their ‘Illegal’ immigration mantra. The current system with it’s absurd quotas leaves immigrants almost no choice beyond ‘illegal’.
We are getting a LOT of Mexicans because its close and Mexico is a dis-functional country. If we shared a border with Russia, it would be Russians instead of Mexicans.
As a long term solution, America needs to expand to include Mexico. The people most against that are the same ones fleeing Mexico. Go figure.
Meanwhile north of the border, the Canadians send more people south every year then Mexico sends north. It’s just that Canadians don’t stay and they are white.
The Fact of the matter is that the USA has always had racist immigration laws. In the 19th century, they were blatantly so. At various time Chinese, Japanese and Hungarians were excluded.
America being a capitalist society, I’m more comfortable discriminating by economics then by Race or national origin.
The other big lie is that the USA is crowded. BS. India and China BOTH have 3 or 4 time the population in a smaller area.
The taking jobs thingie is bogus also. Those Jobs ARE lost, but not because of the immgrants. They are lost because the owners of those businesses won’t pay a wage high enough to attract American workers. Let them sit in jail for a year and then be barred from owning a business and see if they don’t step up to the plate on wages.
Ah yes, compromise & give us what we want & all will be just fine. Right. What about the hundreds of thousands that will follow another amnesty, just as the current illegal aliens have followed all previous amnesties? No big deal? Right. They’ll just cost you even more money, that’s all.
The vast majority of Americans have not employed
illegal aliens. They never did. Few realize average illegal aliens pay significantly less into the system than they take out. these are now facts supported by numerous studies done by numerous organizations who count all the costs. Those who count only the costs they want you to look at, always show illegal aliens as net contributors. Its the typical shell game proponents use to distract you from the realities.
The facts show illegal aliens should leave & they should then apply to come here legally. The facts show those who wish to come should follow the law. How long anyone has been here is irrelevant. No one other than native Indians were here longer than any of us, and they migrated here across the land bridge to Siberia.
Even that is no longer relevant. This is now & now represents the issues we must face. Just as Spain sent its troops to wipe out natives, so too did Americans subdue native Indians. Neither actions are anything to be proud of. Still, those days are long past. I did not kill any Indians or take any property from them. So, trying to make me responsible for them, just don’t make it.
We have laws & those who broke them & the many more once they were here, must go home & apply to come back legally as millions already do!
By saying we should compromise, all you do is tell us to give up. We will not!
To me this argument breaks down to this analogy:
You buy a house, you work hard to provide for your family everyday. One day however out of the blue someone breaks into your house and they refuse to leave. They help themselves to your food, watch your TV, break your Lazy Boy and then tell you that not only is there nothing you can do about it, but the police won’t help you and your “house-guests” are going to bring in their extended family, their friends and any convict they happen to find along the road. Oh and by the by if you try to have them removed they call you a bigot, heartless and just plain mean.
While I understand that the places these people come from are difficult to live in that does not give them the right to break our laws and disregard our sovereignty. Many Illegals use our resources, refuse to assimilate and send the money they make, much of it tax free (illegal yet again) and send it out of the country which puts yet more pressure on our already strained economy.
Another interesting question is, since obeying the laws of this country is not a priority ( they’re here illegally, getting aid illegally, going to school illegally, using fake ID’s illegally, driving without insurance and a legal license and so on) what other laws are going to be inconvenient to obey? The laws that deal with public hygiene or perhaps, theft, fraud or abuse, mayhaps.
Life is complex. Human beings are complex. The law is outrageously complex, but stealing is stealing no matter whether it’s someone’s money, opportunities, or peace of mind.
27. Bohemond:
“3) Criminal penalties including jail time for employers who knowingly hire illegals.”
What impact will that have on prices/inflation?
There are a few points to discuss:
The Hispanic population(mostly in the Southern States) is the only one to stop and confront the growing Muslim population(mostly in the Northen States) in the United States. For two reasons: The Hispanics are Christians and they have a high population rate(more than 2.11)that can counter that of the Muslim population. Cesar Chavez used to say ” we will not overcame, we shall overwhelm” and I stand that numbers matter more than ever to stop the Islamisation of the United States.
Because of these two reasons, I will be able to let the illegals became legals.Give them temporary working permits to contribute to Social Security for 10 years and a fine of $10,000 per family to be paid in those 10 years.
For our government to not enforce the laws, has caused all states to become border states.
The Marxist will give illegal aliens healthcare payed for by the American tax payer, and then push more socialism onto this country by making the 15-30 million illegal aliens legal.
The votes to keep a Marxist in power, and turn America into a third world country, and bankrupt it. We are almost there. But, don’t worry. The UN wants a One World currency, as does China,(whom our government has allowed us to be in hock to), and the Russians,(who love us so much).
Secure the border now, with the military. Start deporting with five tons, MRE’s, and water. Fine employers out the wazzoo for hiring illegal aliens.
31. seanmahair:
Your debating points are accurate and very clear. It is extremely admirable to find a human who uses their head and to critically think out the issues. I am convinced that our elected officials in Washington D.C, feel absolutely no responsibility whatsoever for the mess that they have created, maintained, and encouraged.
Name the Act and I’ll recite it to you or anyone else for that matter. America’s first ruckus regarding immigration was as early as 1790 and with each successive wave of illegal aliens comes – what should be a ruckus – is completely ignored and entitlements encouraged.
No I do not have a problem with Immigration. I do, however, have a problem with reckless disregard for America’s laws and every attempt by advocacy groups to welcome and empower those who are here illegally which is approximately 20 million illegal aliens. Furthermore, I write about this travesty daily and what enflames me more than employers driving down the costs for cheap labor is that of our very own government.
I will just state this once for the record: I did not start this rubbish. The American government did by either condoning breaking the laws, or having complacency with regards to the situation. We have literally scores of representatives in Washington D. C. who have been at the ‘political game’ for years. I am convinced that these very representatives are receiving quid pro quo for looking the other way and ignoring the problem.
If we are going to change the situation with illegals invading our nation, the change lies within us. Our government has lied, cheated, and stolen from us for too long and have lost all credibility.
“Wanted: An Intelligent Debate Over Sex Consent Age Reform”
“This time around, it would be better if we had less posturing and more compromise and flexibility.”
“Clearly I Ruben Navarrette Jr. think that we should be able to have sex with 9 year olds… however I can be flexibility and am willing to compromise to the age of 11. This is a fair and reasonable offer… to refuse would mean you are a racist, bigot, prejudge and are denying me rights that I have granted myself. You need to do less posturing and hate-mongers and need to be more understanding of the demands that you are suppose to be giving into as I push my agenda onto you. Also this law change would be retro-active in that all my people will be set free.”
[i]This is only a rough draft of a future legal arguments made by Ruben Navarrette Jr.[/i]
Irony is great isn’t it ruben… lets just magically turn something illegal into something legal because your demands…
Their should be no compromise or flexibility. And your posturing should be met with with facts and the law.
Time to get this issue ON the table also.Time to secure Americas border with Mexico.Start getting these Hispanics the tools they need to become Americans and let that help come from Republicans.
I have to comment again. Mr Naverrette is disingenuous on so many points, that I am bothered that he is considered a serious thinker on the immigration issue. Everything he writes on the topic is not just of a different opinion, it is wrong and deceitful.
Here is a list of the most irksome points:
-The first five paragrpahs call everyone wrong except for the author himself. He assumes that the middle ground is an acceptable place. For many important issues, the middle ground is a failure. Where is the middle ground when defending yourself against deadly attack? Half dead? Compromise does not a lead to a desirable outcome. This tactic is most often deployed most when advancing a failed point of view against a highly-defensible absolutist position.
-Accountability: So because illegal immigrant are everywhere, we cannot criticize the fact that they are everywhere? Does that mean that if you are against high income taxes that you shouldn’t take advantage of government services? Failure to engage in the purest actions does not invalidate a point of view. Yet another fallacy.
-Empathy: The last one in the lifeboat can’t point out that picking up more passengers will cause us to sink? All of us had ancestors who killed invaders. Does that mean we should have empathy for those who want to shoot illegals crossing the Rio Grande? See the fallacy discussed under accountability.
-Honesty: Interesting that this is the most disingenuous of all the points. We should be for illegal immigration because some teenagers are lazy. Or there are greater threats to our exisitence like terrorists with nukes, so we shouldn’t worry about illegals. There are millions of problems less important than immigration, like doing my laundry. Does that mean I should always wear smelly clothing?
-Courage: What wrong with special interests? We all have special interests. The problem Mr Navarrette has with special interests is that they disagree with his own special interests. Each one of the special interests listed has a strong argument for its position, just like the special interests you support.
-Nuance: Strawman – ’nuff said.
-Colorblindness: If anything, culture is the largest part of this issue. If we had 12 million illegal computer science PhDs from Norway illegally developing iPhone apps , we would be having a very different debate. The “color” problem is that our illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly low-skill, low-education non-English speakers whose children are not climbing the economic ladder (See “Achieving Anew: How New Immigrants Do in American School, Jobs, and Neighborhoods” – and not Mr Navarrette’s distorted reporting of its contents) and who are consuming far more in services than they ever will pay in taxes. This was not the case with previous waves of immigration because there were fewer social services and more opportunities for low-skill workers.
Restraint: Nothing important gets done if one is restrained. In this case, restraint is aksing the majority to make concessions it need not make.
Common sense: Self-deportation, positive and negative incentives, and a wall would solve this problem far faster than any government program or solution proposed by Mr Navarrette.
“By adding a dash of each of these ingredients,” Mr Navarrette gets what he wants – amnesty. By avoiding Mr Navarrette’s advice, the majority of Americans get what they want: a reduction in illegal immigration.
One last snarky comment – I just reread the title of this article “Wanted: An Intelligent Debate Over Immigration Reform.” One quick and easy way to do so would be to exclude Mr. Navarrette.
Mr Navarette:
Oddly enough, you have some decent ideas, and also some frankly offensive ones.
But let us begin with the answer to one simple question:
Is the border fence built yet?
No?
We can talk when it is finished and zealously patrolled.
You plug the hole in the hull of the boat BEFORE you start bailing or worrying about who is going to mop up the water.
Until that fence is built, talk to the hand.
(And we might want to find another champion for…well, for just about anything, really other than Chuck Schumer. The man couldn’t sell candy bars in a kindergarten.)
Finish the fence!! How many miles of the already approved fence have been created so far? We put a man on the moon in less time than we can construct a fence!! How many jobs could be created with this undertaking? The Federal government is REQUIRED according to the constitution to protect the borders, and yet they spend their time with things which they have no authority to do.
Stop the flow of illegals… then lets talk about how to deal with those here.
Oh, by the way, the whole BS about illegals ONLY taking jobs which Americans don’t want is complete craziness. Has anyone seen what happened to the formally well paying construction jobs? People were once able to support their families with those jobs!
Whenever a proponent of immigration “reform” calls for flexibility and compromise, it translates into a call for opponents of illegal immigration and blanket amnesty to surrender again. How about this compromise? We simply deport all illegal aliens instead of arresting them and sentencing them to hard labor building a wall on the border? We’ll only do that to those who commit other crimes.
Pardon my intrusion, but with just a few changes to names and places, this whole debate could be about the UK rather than the US. The border between the US and Mexico could be the border between France and the UK. The flood of illegal immigrants from France – aided by the French, who want them out of their country by the easiest way possible – has reached epidemic proportions. Jobs that were done by the legal population at a living wage are now done for a pittance by illegals. The one difference between us, as far as I can see, is our population density, which is about eight times yours and about twice that of France. This whole situation has been caused by the political correctness of our middle class hating, bleeding heart, leftist government. We are one crowded little island, getting more crowded by the day.
Wanted: My best friends life back after he was murdered 2 years ago by racist illegal alien gang members from Mexico because he was white and his girlfriend was hispanic. My friends sister’s innocence returned after she was sexually molested by a 42 year old illegal alien from Mexico when she was 10 years old. My once pristine peaceful area back before it was invaded by hostile low IQ obese illegal aliens from Mexico. My friends small home improvement business back after it was chased out of town by wage undercutting illegal aliens. My political representatives always looking out for the best interets of their citizens.
What’s so hard to understand about ‘illegal’?
Compromise and flexibility! Hoo! In other words, this time around, those of you with strong beliefs on the subject need to have less strong beliefs on the subject, m’kay?
“Compromise” doesn’t mean “if only you’d give up, I’d get my way.”
#43 Sussx man:
“This whole situation has been caused by the political correctness of our middle class hating, bleeding heart, leftist government.”
Credit where credit is due old chap. Illegal Immigration for purposes of economic exploitation is a bipartisan screwing of the little guy.
The Right wants the cheap labor, the Left wants the subservient class it can enslave with it’s Nannyism.
No other issue shows naked class warfare across partisan lines than this one.
And that’s why you have a Reuben Navarette Jr., who if you google his picture, is further from a mestizo cabbage-picker than you or I are, advocating for de-facto amnesty.
Only people ignorant or willfully so, and therefore mendacious, of the Hispanic caste system can swallow this guy’s bunk.
The LAST thing that the Alcalde wants is to finish the fence and secure the borders, because then where will his next batch of campesinos come from?
I wonder who interjects race into this argument? That is such a mystery to me. I wonder if it is the same people who interject race into everything else? Maybe, but I just cannot be sure.
When my ancestors came to this country they were forced to learn English. There were no laws forcing services to be provided in other languages. I have no problem with immigrants who come here and become part of this great melting pot. However, today, by force of government, we not only make it easier for immigrants to remain separate and apart, we promote it. This inevitably leads to division and the interjection of “race” into everything. By the way, hispanic/latino/whatever is not a race.
Finally, I do not want there to be significant Muslim immigration into this country. Islamic teaching, Koranic based, is directly opposed to the beliefs that underpin our society and culture. While I think most Muslims are peaceful people, there is a significant percentage who are not. Thus, I would rather this nation err on the side of caution and severly restrict all Muslim immigration. Oh, before I forget, Islam is not a race either.
due to the failing economy,strict immigration laws will be enacted and enforced.
there will be those who will whine and cry “RACIST”,but with 17% REAL unemployment and a bankrupt treasury,it is inevitable.
Rubin,
You mention jobs we Americans won’t do. Give us your observation of Mendota, California, which is not far from your roots. The Hispanic part of the population is 97.4% and unemployment is over 41%. Are you for or against more illegal immigrants in Mendota? In my view the situation is simply “SICK”. Tell us why turning this state into Mexifornia is a good thing. I try to focus on gang banging not being a family value. Car jacking and home invasion work for you? I live with them every day.
The person that said you are a racist had it right.
Since 1970 we have doubled the population of the USA. We dont have a single acre more of land, a bit more fresh water, a bit more of the solitude or beauty that made America such a jewel. We have become a land of strip malls, jammed freeways, crime ..why do we need anymore immigrants of any kind..let alone millions of Third Worlders bent on making whats left of this country resemble the shithole they left behind?
Democrats need voters. That is all you need to know.
If the Dems can get Hispanics as fearful of whitey then the dems have the power.
The fact this author does not censor responses like many on this site speaks volumes. Even slightly critical analysis of an article results in the post to be “moderated” out of the comment section.
Maybe the authors censoring have thin skins, cannot accept critical analysis, cannot accept their view is not subject to be challenged, whatever.
It is the doom of any public blog to only allow like minded individuals to participate, that is how groups follow each other off the cliff.
Immigrants who follow the rules are warmly welcomed in this nation. Some of them are the best Americans we have.
Aliens are not.
Race is not a place or country.
Arrest them, take everything they have to pay for deportation, secure the border with what ever it takes. The door to the immigration office will still be open, as it always has been for those who repsect this nation.
I look forward to saying hello to those new fellow Americans.
The discussion of the preposterous idea of ’rounding up illegals and deporting them’ is not financially, morally viable.
So welfare, WiC, section 8 housing, head start programs, teen pregnancy, overcome with gangs, etc., is more productive?
Ruben, you’d written a piece recently regarding the ‘progress’ of Latinos assimilating in the U.S. Perhaps this should be most relevant in the city which boasts of the most illegal aliens – Los Angeles.
Oh wait. Children of illegal immigrants in L.A. COUNTY ALONE received $48 million dollars in welfare/ food stamps assistance (that’s only welfare aid. This doesn’t include the other benefits mentioned in my 2nd paragraph) for the month of July 2009 alone.
http://antonovich.co.la.ca.us/Pages/Press%20Releases/09/August/Welfare%20costs%20081109.html
That’s a $3 million dollar increase from just 4 months earlier!
http://www.the-signal.com/news/archive/12489/
‘Intelligent conversation’? Using a word from Obama – ‘Uhhhhh’
I’m thinking deporting these criminals is more viable than the present actions being implemented, Ruben.
Much of the demand for illegal immigrant labor is from contractors and homeowners who are dodging Social Security and other payroll taxes. The co-op where I live has outsourced much of their maintenance work to contractors who can low-bid because they employ illegal immigrants, pay them in cash, and pay no payroll taxes. Crack down on these contractors. Seize any truck carrying illegal workers where payroll taxes are not being paid, and send the truck to be auctioned off by GSA. The real criminals are these tax-dodging employers.
There are two sides in this debate.
One side is fielded by Liberal Democrats, Knee Pad Republicans (as in the McCains of the world who walk on kneepads across the isle to give a lewinsky to any democrat that whips it out) and Illegal Aliens.
The other side:
The Rest of us.
Those who should compromize should do so OUTSIDE THIS COUNTRY WHERE THEY BELONG!
As usual, everyone but the illegals has to compromise. Typical Navarette. They can come as they want, get all the welfare they want, cheat the tax system, never learn English, and get amnesty.
No honesty from Navarette who just wants amnesty now for every illegal.
Sorry, you can’t intimidate me with your Obamesque fraudulent appeals to civility and bi-partisanship.
You are the one with unlimited and uncompromising demands.
Problem solved in 30 days..Issue a National ID Card.
The card will have no information..none except your citizenship status, and/or visa status with the date the visa expires. This card must be presented for any social service, hospitals, enrolling in school, job applications. At the same time post
notices on every street corner, every hispanic radio station and TV station of where and when they can show up for a free bus ride back home.
#50
Navarrate is an upstate Tejano (dad was a Dallas Police officer), though yes, he “mias” (pisses) in a San Diego newspaper every week. Wrong roots, dude. And the biggest cause of current agricultural UNemployment in the Central Valley is draconian restrictions on water – not to preserve it for future uses and users, but to protect some goddamn mosquito!! – read some Joel Kotkin on this issue.
We keep complaining about the loss of jobs and the fact that employers are hiring illegal immigrants for their willingless to work for minimum wage, and that we should penalize those employers and therefore wages and jobs would increase. That is a joke, first and foremost, a dishwasher, bussboy, farm picker, 2nd line cook, is not going to make anymore than $5-$7/hr and NONE of you, would be willing to work that type of work for that pay, and if you are already thinking well if immigrants are gone those wages will increase, you are lying to yourself, those wages will not increase, because those employers are not able to pay more, they would have to consolidate positions, and NONE of you would be willing to work 2 jobs for the same pay.
We tend to forget that even those immigrants that send money back to their countries, are still buying their rice, beans, meat, milk, clothes, cars, appliances, etc…, here in our country, therefore, helping the local economy. Once we start building our local economy, the national value will increase. Think about it.
forgotten said, ‘are still buying their rice, beans, meat, milk, clothes, cars, appliances, etc…, here in our country,..’
Really? Go to El Paso, Texas and see how many people work in ‘America’ and return to Mexico in the evening.
Central – Southern California. Do you know how many people go south, to Tijuana monthly for groceries? These same folks shop primarily at ‘carnecerias’ in the states as well.
A majority of these same folks spending ‘their money’ at the chain grocery stores are spending their food stamps and other subsidies provided by THE TAXPAYER!
Nice try forgotten.
As for the wages ‘increasing’ – they will! I have many friends in Santa Barbara County who picked fruits and vegetables in the valley in the late 80′s, early 90′s who were earning competitive wages, health insurance available. All this to and for American Workers. The owners of these companies will have to accommodate. Look at models such as Oklahoma is implementing.
The state of Oklahoma has cracked down on many facets of illegal immigration, owners employing said illegals and the result is less gang activity, low unemployment, educators are getting their students, classrooms in order again. Police Departments have actually transferred officers to bigger cities because their services are no longer needed in that area. There is a resolution rather than crying Uncle.. as Ruben and his ilk encourage you to do.
Big business wants to drive wage levels down to Chinese levels. The stealthed marxists want enough votes to create a permanent one party majority.
The strange thing is trying to imagine why big business thinks a permanent leftist government is going to let them keep their money.
Now lawmakers want to give illegals government run healthcare and Obama wants to just give them all amnesty, I guess then they won’t be illegals. Shouldn’t we focus on helping law abiding Americans? – http://is.gd/3ML7L