TSA ‘Strip and Grope’: Meet the Fourth Amendment (Updated)
Under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
More than two hundred years old, the Fourth Amendment and many other parts of the Constitution often get lost or simply ignored in the fog of bureaucracy en route to enhanced governmental authority over United States citizens. That is not a good thing. Unlike much modern legislation, the language of the Fourth Amendment is short, simple. and relatively easy to understand. However, the often incomprehensible gloss applied through legislation and judicial interpretation has made the very important word “unreasonable” difficult to interpret abstractly.
Transportation Security Agency (TSA) full-body scanning and pat-down procedures, also known as Strip and Grope, are now common:
Without regard for threat potential, airline passengers of all ages can now be forced to make the choice between baring their nakedness before a federal agent, or getting a full-body fingertip groping by another federal agent. The advanced imaging technology (AIT) scanners — AKA strip-search machines — now stand watch in more than 65 airports nationwide, with their numbers set to grow by more than 40 percent at year’s end thanks to your federal stimulus dollars.
The procedure is so humiliating and so invasive that even flight crews are rebelling. The 11,000-member American Pilots’ Association just received a letter from its leader decrying the humiliation, radiation danger, and ineffectiveness at deterring terrorism of this strip-and-grope regimen.
Other pilots’ unions have joined the chorus and an “Opt Out” group has urged people not to fly on November 24, when there are normally many Thanksgiving travelers.
As to any radiation dangers, the government has been assured (mainly by the government, so it’s just gotta be right) that there is no cause for concern, even though the 341 scanners now in use are to be increased to nearly one thousand by the end of 2011. For all I personally know to the contrary, the new procedures may be marginally effective in preventing terrorism — even though ACLU Legislative Counsel Chris Calabrese has opined otherwise:
Travelers have the right to opt for a pat-down instead of exposing themselves to the radiation and prying eyes of an anonymous TSA agent in another room. But as ACLU Legislative Counsel Chris Calabrese told USA Today: “Are we giving people two intolerable actions at airports? They can be virtually strip-searched or endure a really aggressive grope?”
That’s exactly what the TSA is doing, in its latest bit of security theater designed to try to make us feel safer without actually increasing safety. And it’s really no choice at all. As Goldberg points out, “the effectiveness of pat-downs does not matter very much, because the obvious goal of the TSA is to make the pat-down embarrassing enough for the average passenger that the vast majority of people will choose high-tech humiliation over the low-tech ball check.” In fact, Goldberg reports that he was told directly by a screener: “That’s what we’re hoping for. We’re trying to get everyone into the machine.”
Here is an account by a Mr. John Tyner, who claims that he became ridiculously ensnared in a spiderweb of TSA bureaucratic hassles and snafus early on the morning of November 13 and was threatened with a $10,000 fine if he left the airport; something he had previously been directed by TSA personnel to do after declining to be groped. It does not appear to be fiction. According to this article, by the evening of November 13 Mr. Tyner had received 70,000 comments, of which only five percent “say I’m an idiot.” He noted that every terrorist act on an airplane has been halted by passengers: “It’s time to stop treating passengers like criminals and start treating them as assets.”
Do these sorts of things violate our rights to be secure in our persons against unreasonable searches? No act of Congress gave TSA agents the power to do these things; the Congress delegated various powers to the TSA and the TSA developed the procedures, evidently with no little or no adult supervision and even less consideration given to the Fourth Amendment.
It appears that substantial discretion is left to low-level TSA employees in deciding what is “reasonable” — substantially more than is left to more “ordinary” and often better-trained law enforcement officers in deciding whether there is reasonable cause to think that a crime has been or is being committed. Can a policeman legitimately stop people on a public street randomly, or simply because he wants to, with no reason even to suspect that they are committing or are about to commit a crime and subject them to highly invasive pat-downs? Can he legitimately do so to everyone walking down a sidewalk? I think the answer is easy: No.
When the Arizona immigration statutes came to his attention, President Obama opined that it was horrible that:
[The] law that just passed in Arizona — which I think is a poorly conceived law … (applause) … you can try to make it really tough on people who look like they, “might be illegal immigrants.” One of the things that the law says is local officials are allowed to ask somebody who they have a suspicion might be an illegal immigrant for their papers. But you can imagine, if you are a Hispanic American in Arizona — your great-grandparents may have been there before Arizona was even a state. But now, suddenly, if you don’t have your papers and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you’re going to be harassed. That’s something that could potentially happen. That’s not the right way to go. (Applause.) (emphasis added)
The Arizona law does nothing of the sort. Still, President Obama would have been reasonable in his indignation if people were actually being stopped without probable cause on the way to buy ice cream with the kids, harassed, and asked for their papers as he claimed. They were not and could not be under the Arizona statute. But Obama has shown no indignation of which I am aware that in airports people are now (and not merely potentially) stopped routinely and asked for their “papers.” They are also now subjected to electronic strip searches and, should they decline, are now “groped” by TSA agents — with no reasonable suspicion that they may be committing or are about to commit a crime.
I keep asking people the question. Is airport security intended to catch terrorists? If it is, it does a poor job. Is it intended to spread around inconvenience as evenly as possible? If that is its purpose, it does a mediocre job. I’m always appalled when some celebrity gets searched at the airport (I’ve read accounts of George Clooney and Michael Caine getting searched). We all know they’re not terrorists (some are perhaps silly when it comes to politics, but no one making that sort of money is going to fly a plane into a building, not while their career is still going strong), so why are we wasting our time searching them, while someone else, never mind who, gets on the plane?
I’ve heard it said that the whole point here is to get people not to fly, thereby putting the airlines in the red. That leads to a federal bailout and takeover just like Government Motors. More control.
There job is not to catch terrorist. Prior to going through the metal detector at our local airport yesterday, my daughter was ordered by a TSA Agent to take off her sweatshirt. No private area was offered. This was in public, in front of 7 other agents, the general public and various airport employees. When she asked for clarification on taking off her shirt, the agent’s response was to give her the thorough pat-down. Her shirt was not baggy, and when she pulled it off, she was standing there in front of everyone with nothing but her bra on. This is nothing more than TSA being on a power trip for the sole purpose of humiliating those who fly.
The famous ‘Barefoot Bandit’ was a serious threat to national security when he was able to avoid capture. Where was TSA? √Wait, maybe he sneaked in at night when they were sleeping?
For two years he stayed a step ahead of the law — stealing cars, powerboats and even airplanes, police say, while building a reputation as a 21st-century folk hero. 19 YO Colton Harris-Moore’s celebrity became his downfall. He is suspected of stealing at least five planes – including the aircraft he allegedly lifted in Indiana and flew more than 1,000 miles (1,600 kilometers) to the Bahamas, despite a lack of formal flight training. (sounds scary)
H’mmmmm, maybe he learned from playing MS Flight Simulator video games.
Perhaps MS needs to add TSA to the video game to make it more realistic!
I have 2 pitchforks if anyone needs to borrow one.
Dare I say, Janet “Big Sis” Napolitano strikes me as the kind of individual who might actually get off on the mini-power trip of subjecting the population at large to unreasonable searches at airports.
Her repeated justification that the TSA agent who will be patting you down/feeling you up will be someone of the same sex (“gender appropriate”) seems weird as well.
This is, after all, the woman who declared immediately after the Christmas Day bomberincident that he was a “one off” and “the system worked”. The system worked only because fellow passengers and personnel on that particular airplane jumped the guy. Abumutallab’s “one offedness” was, it turns out, likely influenced by/orchestrated by al Awlaki & friends in Yemen. (Reportedly, the type of bomb recently found in the printer cartridges from Yemen matched that of the Xmas Day bomber)
The system didn’t work (at all) in that Abumuttalab’s own father had, long before the incident, warned the American embassy in Nigeria that his own son was into some very deep sh!t.
I wonder how Nancy Pelosi would react to a pat down. Or Kathleen Sebelius. Or Napolitano herself.
Leftist élitists love to make up rules that they, themselves, won’t be subject to.
If you remember big sis said no to going through the strip search machine.
I offer my solution to the situation with out charge. Offer a $50,000 reward to anyone who spots a potential bomber on an air plane, and prevents the act.
Those of us from Napolitano’s Arizona know that she would *love* to be searched by someone of the same sex.
Don’t know about Nabcy and Kathleen…But Janet might enjoy a “same sex” hand search….
“The new airport security measures meet the definition of “unreasonable search.”"
I agree with that, but Eugene Volokh says different.
http://volokh.com/2010/11/15/do-new-high-tech-scans-at-the-airport-violate-the-fourth-amendment/
According to the linked article,
I think the new procedures are radically different from the old and previously approved procedures, for the reasons stated in the article. The popular displeasure with them certainly far exceeds that over prior procedures, and there are good reasons for that displeasure. Sometimes, even We the Peons are more sensible that our
masterpublic servants.Where do we go from here? When some terrorists use devices secreted in their anal cavity, will that justify the search of all or even randomly selected travelers’ anal cavities? How far is too far to go? There has to be some point, and I think it has already been passed.
There are reasonable and effective ways to minimize (no airport procedures will ever totally eliminate) terrorist activity. Israel uses them and does not use the TSA scanning techniques or, for that matter invasive body searches in the absence of probable cause to do so. The availability and success of less invasive and less intrusive procedures is a factor to be considered in evaluating the compliance of the new TSA procedures with the Fourth Amendment.
Even if the current system did work, it is obsolete. Terrorists have already used bombs inserted in the anal cavity.
Orin Kerr, not Eugene Volokh.
call it “obamavision” and “obamapat” – if it takes, it will disappear in a blink of an eye.
These new TSA procedures are just the beginning. If a stand is not taken, God know what is next.
since when has a lib ever adhered to the constituition?
the constitution is to be circumvented, disparaged, and misunderstood every step of the way
@ #3
“I wonder how Nancy Pelosi would react to a pat down. Or Kathleen Sebelius. Or Napolitano herself.”
pelosi would melt in the scanner so a pat down is only choice
sebelius would get caught with her caches of pig flu vaccine that she has on hand to sneak up on people and poke with
napolitano would love the pat down– why else was she getting all aroused with “same gender same gender pat downs!!!”
What should the average person do when travelling? The answer is simple and obvious – wear an islamic head scarf! – maybe something like arafat use to wear. That way you’ll have the full force of CAIR behind you and they’ll treat you with kid gloves! After all, everyone knows that islamic people aren’t terrorists.
My most recent flight was about three weeks ago from John Wayne Airport in Orange County to Boise Idaho, with a change at Salt Lake City. This was before the new procedures, but, even so, I was disgusted with TSA. This was the first flight my husband has taken since knee replacement surgery. Doctor’s letters no longer are accepted. He was pulled aside at John Wayne and subjected to a prolonged and intrusive search. A woman who had had similar surgery and still walked with a cane was treated similarly. Two less likely terrorists would have been hard to find at that airport.
At the Salt Lake City Airport on our return, we witnessed a classic in Kabuki security. As we approached our gate, a TSA team, complete with rubber gloves was huddled by the boarding gate. As passengers gathered, these dynamite investigators spread out through the area, dipping testing strips into little old ladies’ water bottles and searching bags, which, presumably, their fellow agents had just cleared as safe for flight. I did NOT feel safer as I boarded the plane. In fact, I was reminded of how unsafe we all were with these Keystone Cops with their painful execution of Politically Correct Procedures in charge of our securtiy.
Drudge had a picture of a nun getting groped by a TSA Agent, and a film clip of a 3-year old being nearly molested by a TSA agent. Don’t you feel safe flying now: Napolitano sees to it that no Christian radical or toddler terrorist will ever take down a plane. Notice how you never see a Muslim in burka or a bearded imam in full religious garb getting any sort of scrutiny from the TSA. Only the infidel gets the naked scan or full body grope.
all of the libs insanity is better understood when you realize that it is not terrorists or foreign enemies that they are trying to stop
it is american citizens– those gun slinging, bible toting, racist neanderthals
so, as rick suggested, we should go to the airports in muslin garb and/or obama hope and change t shirts if we want to avoid any security scrutiny
Oh, please. Libs this and libs that. Nonsense. This was all brought to you through none other than George W. Bush, who signed the law opening this Pandora’s Box.
Full disclosure: I voted for the man. Twice. But this was one of HIS boneheaded stunts. Blame “libs” all you want for the things they actually do, but this is not one of them
There is some relevance to what you say. I would to point out though, that there is a difference to opening Pandora’s box as say compared to actively reaching in and pulling every nasty thing you can find out.
That’s right, blame Bush. Blaming Bush for the grope search is like blaming the framers of our Constitution for all the problems we have today. After all, they are the ones who started the United States of America.
Still not grasping the “redistrubition” concept?
It is not merely money that you have “enough” of already. The “redistribution” of justice means that Ike Brown and the New Black Panthers play by a different set of “make up justice” rules.
And, you have had “enough” dignity. It’s time for a little “redistribution” of dignity.
Obama was around when the City of Chicago was trying the strip search cases that had all the left, lefter, leftist wing completely up in arms. If you had to go into the local lockup, you were strip searched for weapons. It was ruled unconstitutional. At first, the police were using their discretion as to who might be a substantial risk to fellow detainees. But, that was contested as having a “disparate impact” upon non-whites. So, the City complied…and strip searched everyone who got locked up, regardless of their station in life, age, or offense. (Forgot your driver’s license and got pulled over? If you had to be locked up, you got strip searched)
Look, the TSA isn’t going to find a terrorist with the peek, pat and poke, it is however, going to redistribute your dignity. Three year old girls and nuns, granny and grandpa, and especially you…the business frequent flier.
Jesse Jackson wants to draft the “rich” to fight in our wars, Nancy Pelosi wants to tax the “rich”, and Janet Napolitano wants to grope suburbia. “Vote us out of office will you? We got our hands in your pockets and we’re not just jingling change…you can believe in.”
There are many American’s who believe that if their jail is to big to walk out of then they must not be in prison! I’ve seen comments on other articles where TSA’s actions are defended. I bet that most of these pro-gropers are the same people who duct taped their windows and doors during the anthrax scare. The ones who think “Reefer Madness” was a live documentary and vote against marijuana laws (a substance that has never killed anyone) while cheerfully downing (or feeding to their families) FDA approved drugs that have killed tens of thousands.
For those who need numbers: I would venture to say that none of these “safety at all costs” people have looked at the actual list of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft.
See the following:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft]
Look at the numbers from 1991 to 2001, then from 2001 to 2010. You’re more apt to die, by better than 10 to 1 odds, of pilot error or a mechanical failure crash than bombs or hijackers. This whole security issue is a non-event. It does not make you safer. These rules allow TSA employees handle men, women & children in an inappropriate and/or illegal fashion if done anywhere else by anyone else.
Fascism exists when corporations run the government, not the people.
When Corporations run the government?
Our government is about as anti-business as you can get, has been for decades…
I guess Obama and the Lefties are a “Corporation” then?
I was with you all the way to the end. The TSA is not a corporation. And frankly, if the TSA keeps this up, corporations will be affected, as more people, like me, are going to decide the flying is an unnecessary hassle. Between the invasive security procedures, which you rightly identify are not leading to safer flying, and the nickle-and-dime you tactics of the airlines, I would jsut rather spend a couple days on a nice drive somewhere, stopping at motels along the way. It would still be cheaper than flying my family to said location.
Fascism exists when corporations run the government, not the people.
Actually, fascism exists when government and business play “Let’s Make a Deal.” We’re the ‘prize’. They win, we lose.
Each figures that they’ll get the better of the deal. The history of the last century tells us just how well that works out.
You have it wrong. Fascism is when the government runs the corporations.
G-d, I wish they still taught Civics in schools.
There are many American’s who believe that if their jail is to big to walk out of then they must not be in prison! I’ve seen comments on other articles where TSA’s actions are defended. I bet that most of these pro-gropers are the same people who duct taped their windows and doors during the anthrax scare. The ones who think “Reefer Madness” was a live documentary and vote against marijuana laws (a substance that has never killed anyone) while cheerfully downing (or feeding to their families) FDA approved drugs that have killed tens of thousands.
For those who need numbers: I would venture to say that none of these “safety at all costs” people have looked at the actual list of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft.
See the following:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft]
Look at the numbers from 1991 to 2001, then from 2001 to 2010. You’re more apt to die, by better than 10 to 1 odds, of pilot error or a mechanical failure crash than bombs or hijackers. This whole security issue is a non-event. It does not make you safer. These rules allow TSA employees handle men, women & children in an inappropriate and/or illegal fashion if done anywhere else by anyone else.
Fascism exists when corporations run the government, not the people.
Are you serious? You are the same person who would whine and cry after another attack, asking why further measures were not taken to insure safety. So get off your little pipe dream cloud and realize that your ignorance is a part of the overall problem.
Don’t get sad – get mad.
Tears and whining are not the correct response to an attack, but neither is authorising the government to go to extremes. Sometimes you pay a very high price for safety – it is called your freedom.
You can live wrapped up in government approved cotton wool, never allowed to hurt yourself, or you can be free – take risks and take responsibility.
Theocracies, such as islam, reject all personal responsibility – “allah gone and done everything – allah willing it will work – if I die it was allahs will” etc. These are the signs of a potential bomber. PC can kill you.
Dan,
Seriously, you didn’t bother to look at the numbers, did you? More people die of appendicitis each year than terrorist attacks, you want to address that? Maybe mandatory ultrasounds? Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever kills about 800 people a year so lets spray the entire country with insecticide because, after all, its for our safety.
As to being one of those people who “who would whine and cry after another attack, asking why further measures were not taken to insure safety.”:
I don’t ask the government to “protect” me for two reasons:
1. Asking the government for help is like asking Hannible Lector for private cooking lessons. The “good ol’ Fed has murdered more people as an agency for terrorism than all the jihadists combined and, since you won’t consider evidence, you can look up that info for yourself.
2.When I turned 18 I was legally able to decide where I was going in life and how I was going about it. That included the concept of not using BIG Brother in loco parentis. {Which in this case means not adopting a crazy parental figure.}
Whereas it is plain to see that you need the Protection of the Great White Father (brown, black, green: insert color as needed) in order to sleep at night. But take heart, Santa’s going to bring you all you need so why worry?
This is one of the comments posted after I linked this article at Free Republic.
It is, of course untrue. Still . . . . .
What precisely is wrong with this innovative approach?
… just that the technology doesn’t work yet …
but when it does – I may start flying again.
It’s such a minor inconvenience that people are stupid to bitch and moan about it, especially since those precautions could save their lives. The USA has become a country of irrational, bitchy gossips and irrational, chronic whiners and complainers – retarded, spoiled brats who will never learn a lesson, no matter how many times they get spanked.
No TSA screener or TSA procedure has ever discovered a terrorist. Terrorists laden with explosives have managed to board flights departing from American airports despite TSA procedures. Therefore, your claim that “those precautions could save their lives” is unsubstantiated at best, sheer fantasy at worst.
Try an actual argument next time.
Sorry, ditzy, I don’t argue with fools.
So, Just a thought, or two,
I take it you have no problems with your naked images being stored and used for someone’s gratification? We all know the TSA lied about the machines not storing images: if they didn’t store images, the one of the TSA employee who attacked his co-workers for teasing him about his endowments (or lack thereof) wouldn’t have been available to accompany all the articles about it.
I presume you also have no objection to a complete stranger groping your personal equipment?
Also, I would appreciate some statistics on the number of lives saved by TSA security theater. Or is it like the “jobs created or saved” number that presumably emerged from someone’s fundamental orifice? Or perhaps what unemployment was supposed to be by now post-stimulus? Or even without stimulus?
I will agree about your second statement. Unfortunately, I don’t think you realize how autobiographical it is when you say it.
“Big Sis” wants you to be safe so you must surrender your dignity & rights. You must be seen naked or be felt up by a government bureaucrat prior to being allowed to proceed to the showers, er, to the loading gates.
Fourth Amendment? FOURTH AMENDMENT?
We don’t need no stinkin fourth amendment!
TSA = Thousands Standing Around
I wonder if they change their gloves between gropes???
As a nuclear engineer with a working knowledge of health physics, I can say with confidence that X-ray machines are no big deal. Flying on an airplane delivers a significant dose of radiation by itself; people who are extremely fearful of radiation shouldn’t fly, period. That said, if the health effects of radiation were as bad as people feared, we wouldn’t be using radiology nearly as much as we do for diagnostic purposes.
There may indeed be no significant radiation risks from going through the equipment; I don’t have the medical background to take a position. I do know that there is sufficient concern over radiation exposure that medical personnel administering X-rays and MRI tests prepare the patient and then seek cover behind lead shields before starting the equipment. Even patients getting dental X-rays are normally provided with heavy lead based aprons to shield parts of their bodies not being X-rayed. Are the medical folks merely being overly cautious, or are there good reasons?
Back when I was a kid, shoe stores had unsupervised x-ray equipment used to check the fit of new shoes. They were great fun: it was kinda neat to look down through the viewer and see the bones in my feet. Obviously, there was no problem or they wouldn’t be there. It was later realized that there was, indeed, a problem and they were removed. Excuse me for a moment; the noses on my other head itch and I need to scratch them. That’s better. Now. Where was I? Oh. I remember.
Pilots and flight crew are required to go through the TSA’s equipment far more frequently than the rest of us. Are the cumulative effects of that radiation — perhaps combined with the cosmic radiation they normally receive over many years of flying — harmful? I don’t know.
In any event, the principal upsets seem to be over privacy concerns most of us can understand without medical or engineering backgrounds, how far the government can legitimately go, as well as over questions relating to the effectiveness of the new procedures in avoiding terrorism. As noted in the article, Israel has been quite successful without anything even approaching the new TSA procedures, considered a useless waste of effort and money.
To add. Remember when radar guns weren’t a problem, until radar guns where a problem. Anyone who has accidently stood in front of an active radar, and felt the burn, knows there is a problem with being radiated. Your point about pilots and flight crews dealing with that significantly more than the average passenger, thus being at higher risk, seems plenty valid to me.
Airline pilot screening would seem very repetitive. A pilot has the ability to make or break your flight and we put our safety in their hands when we fly. It would seem (sensible) if they are pilots, they ‘should’ be able to simply do a “retina eye scan” to determine they are who they say they are and board their airplane cockpit. If they should ever decide to end the flight before a safe landing, they could do so with absolutely no devices. I would even think it safer if they were allowed to carry a firearm device.
The famous ‘Barefoot Bandit’ was a serious threat to national security when he was able to avoid capture. For two years he stayed a step ahead of the law — stealing cars, powerboats and even airplanes, police say, while building a reputation as a 21st-century folk hero. 19 YO Colton Harris-Moore’s celebrity became his downfall. He is suspected of stealing at least five planes – including the aircraft he allegedly lifted in Indiana and flew more than 1,000 miles (1,600 kilometers) to the Bahamas, despite a lack of formal flight training. H’mmmmm, maybe he learned from playing MS Flight Simulator video games.
The tera-Hertz scanners are not any sort of problem, and I would have no qualms using one. Nobody’s going to get excited about *my* body
You are right that a trip on a plan subjects one to a surprising amount of radiation. I took a Geiger-counter up on a flight back in pre-9-11 days, and it maxed out (all digits 9) when we reached 10000 ft. I use this anecdote when confronted by radio-phobes – especially some friends who live at high altitude but would never live near a reactor
However, the X-ray back-scatter machines may be a concern for two reasons:
1) They use low energy X-rays, so the radiation is deposited in a thin layer of skin rather than throughout the body. This significantly increases the effective dose for the skin, compared to the sort of high energy radiation normally associated with radiation dosimetry. Note also that back-scatter inherently requires higher intensity than through-the-body imaging, because most of the energy is not scattered back to the sensors.
2) It is a scanner. If it stops scanning but keeps emitting, a rather high dose may be received where it is pointed at. Do you trust your TSA to have chosen an inherently safe design for this? Is the design available for public review?
With respect to that kid who who objected to having his “junk” touched, you have a legitimate case to argue that the screeners acted stupidly when they threatened to file a lawsuit against that kid, even though he didn’t even pursue a demand to be allowed on that airplane, and even though he chose to just walk away. But that was just one bizarre aspect of that incident.
There was a time as recently as 50 years ago when most people would have had enough sense t have recognized that that kid was just your ordinary, run-of-the-mill, garden variety, obnoxious, little brat and a real jerk and an *sshole, who cut off his nose to spite his face, ad who created a whole senseless brouhaha, even though any RATIONAL person would have recognized that there wasn’t ANY principle involved.
With those screeners AND with that kid AND with some of the inane comments that we’re reading here, we’re witnessing just more examples of the dumbing down of Americans.
Why do I suspect that exasperated other passengers impatiently waiting to board that flight wanted to request a big canvas mail sack, so that they could stuff that obnoxious kid into it, and send him on his way in the airplane’s baggage compartment?
Would you want to be the passengers who would have to sit next to that jerk?
All during the flight, he would be pestering stewardesses for more bags of peanuts, getting the stews so agitated in other ways, too, that he would have to raise his hand and get permission to go and use the bathroom, which, no doubt, he would do a half dozen times an hour, too, just to be a pain in the ass.
For his own safety, so that other passengers won’t throw him out of planes at 25,000 feet, he should be required (by law) to take buses or trains.
You KNOW he wouldn’t get a mile if he had to hitchike. Would you give that jerk a ride?
What kid? 31 year old John Tyner who’s been married for 10 years and didn’t want to be touched except by his wife? That “kid”?
And your point is? 30 … 29 … 28 … 27 … 26 …
Also makes you wonder what these people would have called Thomas Paine!
Tom, I suspect.
Council on American-Islamic Relations: “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” – Omar Ahmad (CAIR co-founder).
Addressing a youth session at the 1999 Islamic Association for Palestine’s annual convention in Chicago, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) founder Omar Ahmad praised suicide bombers who “kill themselves for Islam,”
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52184
Health-destroying, cancer-causing, degrading naked body scanners or dirty sexual assault needed for airport security? A LIE FROM the PIT of HELL.
Global Jihad advances greatly, not because of cruel Islamo Fascists, but because of weak, pro-Islam, Western enabler leaders. U.S. Airport Security is Deliberately and Shockingly DESTROYED for U.S. top favorite, ISLAM:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com
Controversial Muslim group
gets VIP airport security tour
Feds show CAIR latest screening steps,
sensitive counterterrorism procedures
August 18, 2006
The Department of Homeland Security
took a Muslim group with known past ties to terror organizations on a VIP tour of security operations at the nation’s busiest airport at the same time British authorities were working to break up a plot to blow up U.S. airlines.
On June 21, a senior DHS official from Washington personally guided Muslim officials from the Council on American-Islamic Relations on a behind-the-scenes tour of Customs screening operations at O’Hare International Airport in response to CAIR complaints that Muslim travelers were being unfairly delayed as they entered the U.S. from abroad.
CAIR is a spin-off of the Islamic Association for Palestine, identified by two former FBI counterterrorism chiefs as a “front group” for the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas.
Several CAIR leaders have been convicted on terror-related charges.
During the airport tour, CAIR was taken on a walk through the point-of-entry, Customs stations, secondary screening and interview rooms. In addition, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agents were asked to describe for CAIR representatives various features of the high-risk passenger lookout system.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51573
’“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”
—Former Algerian President Houari Boumedienne’s prophetic warning to Europe in a speech at the U.N. In 1974.
In Sweden, many Muslim youth wear a t-shirt proclaiming: “2030-then we take over”
I completely disagree. The airport security is not a 4th Amendment violation. The purpose of the 4th Amendment is to prevent invasive searches and collection of American citizens and their property. However, there is the important word in that clause which reads “unreasonable”. It is completely reasonable that the TSA must take measures such as this, since they are not allowed to profile. All people taking a commercial flight are therefore subject to being a suspected terrorist. The procedure is not that intrusive, but I can see how it might seem so to those that are completely prudish. I know first hand about the procedures, because I had to go through it a few days ago, leaving Las Vegas. I was scanned and frisked. There was a point when the agent told me “If you feel uncomfortable at all during this process please say so.” As well, they are not searching or scanning people at random. If you fail the scan (which is clearly marked and you are duely notified of) you are then frisked. The term “grope” is very devisive, and really has no place in this discussion, as the agents are searching with a purpose and not to simply feel-up the suspect. Lastly, there is no requirement for anyone to take a commercial flight. If anyone is offended by these security measures, they can choose other modes of transportation. You can take a boat, train, bus, car, or even a smaller private flight. Some of those options may take a while or cost more, but that is the price some may have to pay for the convenience of being able to not be hastled with “useless security”. The government is not forcing the searches on every citizen, only the ones who decide to take commercial flights. I belive you have completely missed the intention of the 4th Amendment, and should really go study up on Constitutional law and the context in which it was intended.
It is completely reasonable that the TSA must take measures such as this, since they are not allowed to profile.
I disagree and not only on the ground that there have been no recent terrorist attacks on commercial aircraft by elderly Roman Catholic bishops, but also on the ground that the procedures used in Israel seem to work pretty well and to do so less expensively and without the “search and grope” procedures; they apparently do so without racial or otherwise objectionable profiling.
I must also admit that I consider the concerns about “profiling” to be substantially overblown.
Both of those examples involve making a decision based on passenger profiles. In Israel, profiling is a key point in their security. In fact, if people are so distraught over the new feature to American airport security they would break into screams of murder at Israel’s levels. It is basically martial law when discussing Israeli security. Also, in the case of a bishop being frisked, you are talking about profiling a person as a non threat because of his appearance. I don’t agree with the restriction of TSA agents to profile potential suspects any more than you probably do. However, it is a part of the landscape now, and it severely limits our security professionals. Lastly, the labeling of this security procedure as “strip and grope” is ignorant. I am certain that if you saw a police officer frisking a person on the side of the road, you wouldn’t say he was groping that person. It’s a devisive term being used to draw alarmist reactions, and should be shunned. I was frisked at the airport, and I can tell you it was anything but being groped. They were very careful about where they touched. In the end, I believe they did a bit of profiling and realized I was of no threat, but don’t tell the ACLU.
What is ignorant is your comparison of a potential passenger entering an airport to travel freely about the country with a person who has be legally placed under arrest by an agent of Law Enforcement.
A police officer doesn’t just order someone to get out of their car and start patting them down randomly, do they? They have to have probable cause, and then they have to formally charge the person that they are suspected of a crime that warrants detention, and then they are read their Miranda rights, and finally they are patted down, before being placed in the cruiser. To not acknowledge this difference is disingenuous at best.
Israeli security is not “martial law”. They question passengers, sure, asking about where you live, what you are doing in Israel, do you have family in Israel, do you speak Hebrew, and the like to gauge responses. They use human judgment (which is sorely lacking in the Obama Administration) to determine who is and is not a likely threat. So, yes, they profile, but it’s professional and efficient and, more to the point, it’s effective. And they’re not exposing people to radiation to do a virtual strip search or groping people. So as a middle-aged woman, I find the Israeli option to be much preferable to the invasion of privacy and humiliation of the American approach.
I don’t know fella. It seems pretty unreasonable to me that the government would conduct an actual or virtual search of my body, including my more private ‘areas’ when they added security value is demonstratably low. (see Isreali comments below)
Feel free to just call me the Devil’s Advocate at any time. The fact is you don’t have to fly commercial. It’s a luxury, not a necessity. Also, it isn’t as if the government is knocking down your door to make you walk through a scanner and be searched. You have a choice to simply not subject yourself to that and not go to the airport.
“No one is required to take a flight.”
This is the most fundamentally dishonest argument ever. What it really means is, “You are not FREE to take a flight.”
The government sets the terms for flying. They consider travel a privilege, not a right. The conditions of the flight are not between the principals, you and the airline. No, it is all the government’s pleasure. YOU are merely a vassal. The government is the master of you, not the other way ’round.
(I’m all for rules regarding rules of the road for the actual flying, just like for driving, but those rules should apply to the pilots, not the passengers.)
Some government employee wants to take a look through your clothes for no damned good reason? “No big deal. Get a grip.”
Oh, you find that unacceptable? We’ll frisk you like a prisoner. “Isn’t that so much better, now? Who says the government doesn’t try to please the customer?”
If you are a beautiful woman, what do you think the chances are that you will be selected for this procedure? How many homosexuals and perverts are thinking this looks like a really nice perq that this TSA job offers?
Jan 20, 2013. Jan 20, 2013. Jan 20, 2013.
Cliff? Cliff Clavin, is that you?
Sick, depraved and perverted.
U.S. government message to Americans and visiting tourists:
We own your bodies; and as the owners of your bodies, we have the right to expose your naked bodies; give you massive amounts of radiation, give you cancers and destroy your health. If you refuse our humiliating, degrading, health destroying body scanners, we will sexually assault you.
This has NOTHING to do with security. It’s all about power and control and destroying our health, basic human rights and our freedom. Ruling elites know the body scanners are useless:
“Full-body scanners are waste of money, Israeli expert says
A leading Israeli airport security expert says the Canadian government has wasted millions of dollars to install “useless” imaging machines at airports across the country.
“I don’t know why everybody is running to buy these expensive and useless machines. I can overcome the body scanners with enough explosives to bring down a Boeing 747,” Rafi Sela told parliamentarians probing the state of aviation safety in Canada.”
http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/Full+body+scanners+waste+money+Israeli+expert+says/2941610/story.html
The only way anyone will stop the madness is to stop flying. I can bet that when you get into the pocket of the airlines they will make some changes and so will the TSA. Money talks people!! I know driving takes longer but we live in a beautiful country enjoy it.
Word on the street is that is exactly what Obama wants – to promote his cross country super-speedy-eco-friendly train set. Close down the airlines backdoor-like.
Hmmm. Good point. I never thought of it that way. Liberals are fond of their choo-choo trains. Its the easiest way to transport large amounts a proles. I know just before I left Britain, they were talking about forcing car makers to put computer equipment into vehicles that would allow the government to enforce the speed limits by shutting down cylinders. Don’t think that can happen here? “On Star, this is so-and-so speaking…”
It is absolutely about control. We are currently being raped by our government.
I couldn’t find it, but is the TSA even part of law enforcement? They are part of homeland security, but can they actually enforce any laws or arrest? Near as I could tell, they were created to create policies and basic security. From what I could tell, don’t they have to use a US marshal or police to actually make an arrest? Aren’t they a civilian agency?
One last item, if they threaten some one, isn’t that abuse or harassment? The threat/promise they issued to that one guy for deciding not to put up with humiliation and not fly is irresponsible, damning behavior. If a cop pulled this when a video camera was going, I couldn’t see it going well. A jack booted thug is a a thug no matter the style of the uniform.
Take a loot at Drdge: http://www.prisonplanet.com/tsa-now-putting-hands-down-fliers-pants.html
The groping has now gone INSIDE of the clothes onto the bare skin in the genital area.
Cavity searches are next.
Also, naked pictures of these “screens” are turning up all over the internet.
“Also, naked pictures of these “screens” are turning up all over the internet.”
Right you are! I immediately identified the Pillsbury Dough Boy, then realized I was mistaken….it was the Michelin Man. Apologies to the Dough Boy. It was never my intention to make him feel so cheap!
Question?
Has the FDA approved the use of these new whole body scanners?
All I have heard is a couple of organizations saying that the scanners are safe.
Where are the years of testing and truckloads of results that are usually demanded before the devices are used on the general public?
Since the new procedures are obviously lawful, unobjectionable and highly successful, they should be implemented immediately at all federal offices. Those places are very dangerous and some have been attacked.
The fine civil servants working long hours daily to help all of us deserve at least as much protection from harm as do silly vacationers off on holiday frolics and business people out grubbing for money. No cost is too high to pay, and no inconvenience is too great, to provide the protection they so badly need but obviously are not being provided.
In fact, it would be prudent immediately to eliminate the procedures at all US airports and uses the scarce resources they wastefully consume for this far better purpose. I don’t think out selfless public servants will be enthusiastic about this idea, but they will just have to get over their charitable notions toward the rest of us; it’s for their own good.
I agree with putting these features in federal offices. “What is good for the goose,” as they say. It would be funny to know that my local congressmen are being shaken down on a daily basis. Sadly, they would probably just find some way to bypass those security points.
They should start using the same procedures mandated for the airports in the Capitol Building and the White House. One of two things would happen:
1. Those who gave the TSA the authority to make these rules would realize how foolish they were and rescind them.
2. Those who gave the TSA the authority to make these rules would be reassured that they made sense and would set a fine personal example for the rest of the country. The rest of the country would realize that the top politicians are being reasonable and not asking anyone to do anything that they aren’t willing to do themselves.
After all, “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”…..
If the purpose of the aggressive grope is to make the machine more palatable I propose that we need to make this as embarrassing for the TSA flunkies as possible. I intend to go through the security line in such a condition that if offered the manual grope it will be very embarrassing for the TSA official. I think its very easy to imagine what I am talking about.
LOL
Oh, wait, you missed a spot!
The fourth amendment went out the window with the Patriot Act. Barry O can read your emails, track which websites you visit, look at what books you buy, listen to your phone calls. Now they want to see you naked and grope you at the airport.
Republicans were all for this stuff when they were in power and the Democrats were opposed. Now the Democrats are in power so they are in favor or government power and Republicans are opposed.
Can we all agree that big government is bad no matter who is in power? Repeal the Patriot Act!
I was for the Patriot Act, but I have always been in favor of, and this goes for 90% of our laws, expiration dates. Almost all laws passed by congress should have biannual expiration date. If ifs that important, the current congress can answer to voter response one way or another. Too many laws to do that you say? Yeah, that’s my point.
i dont mind patriot act if their goal was to actually catch and kill bad guys
but you are right “i am right” this is what happens when you open pandora’s box of constitutional jukes
This revolt is very important, don’t get me wrong, but you should have been fighting back when they allowed illegal search at DUI checkpoints. Probable cause? No, but we do violate _everyone_ equally…
Thanks, I have written both my sens and rep, hope they notice our rage.
Lets not forget they are threatening a fine which for some is close to a years salary for asserting their fourth amendment rights to not submit to illegal search and legally walk away when not under arrest.the “detaining “effect evidently kicks in so essentially all passengers are “detained for security purposes”and now are legally consider under detaiment for interrogation.this is the only way they could be holding.If you are not under arrest you CAN leave except for brief limited identification questions maybe where you are going and a for safety external limited pat down.otherwise you can legally leave if not under arrest .If a cop picks you up and brings you to the station and you arent under arrest you can legally leave why now is there a fine for leaving the airport?
Enough with claiming support for this on “The Left”. I first read opposition to these procdures on “Left Blogs” and that’s where you’ll find petitions against them and numbers to call and names of Congress members who are associated with these policies.
For goodness sake, it’s something people can agree on regardless of politics.
There is a third option. I recently completed a 3000 mile business trip. I drove. Had to burn a couple of days annual leave to make up the difference in travel time.
Hit the airlines in the pocket books. They’re the ones that fell all over themselves to drop kick screening to the feds. Great cost cutter, that.
Here is my take on this, from my website, as a veteran police officer (better versed in search and seizure that the author, apparently) and a person who relied on common sense and compassion in his career.
http://truthandcommonsense.com/2010/11/16/stepping-into-the-tsa-security-fray-is-is-legal-effective-or-constitutional-yesand-no/
Basically, I tried to cover the main points. We all know what the problems are, we just want an easy solution. And like I said, in the real world, where I plied my trade, there is no free lunch.
Please see my response to Comment #43.
These searches are inconvenient and intrusive and there is certainly no need for them to give ME one; I’m just not so sure about YOU. We should probably loosen security enough so that there might be a greater chance that a plane could be blown up every so often. Convenience has its price. On the other hand, if security loosens up so much that terrorists can take over planes again, then they will be flying them into God knows what. Nah, couldn’t happen, right? But like any threat, if it hasn’t happened in a while, then we don’t worry so much, we get lax and eventually maybe we wish we hadn’t.
I could be wrong, I do think that if a Republican were still President, we wouldn’t have nearly the brouha that we have now. The new libertarian lurch bumps into Obama and the Feds frisking us, which evidently is almost as bad as treading on us.
My view; frisk me if you must, but do it fast, let me get on the damned plane, and let’s get out of here on time.
As has already been stated many times, it doesn’t stop terrorists. The first issue being that the TSA is kowtowed by CAIR and the like, and they simply don’t screen the right people, but lets get to the larger point. On 9-11-2001, about two hours after the second plane crashed into the second WTC tower, I responded to someone who said, “why did the passengers let this happen.” I said “Because the MO of hijackings to this point was to land and negotiate. Passengers, pilots, crewmembers, were all familiar with it. It will never happen like this again.” Not only was I vindicated that day, when I found out that flight 93 crowd had gotten wind of what these turkeys were up too, and attempted to retake the plane, but I have been vindicated a number of other times, as passengers reacted just as I thought they would to the new hijacking rules.
You cannot keep a society free and safe at the same time. That’s why there was a time when the death of an American overseas would result in gunboat diplomacy. When American/NAZI agents attempted to sabotage infrastructure as part of Operation Pastorius, they were electrocuted until they died from it, a mere two months after they were apprehended.
Until we start dealing with the real threat, and not lying to ourselves that a victory mosque is a cultural center just because some Imam says so, no amount of airport security will be enough. If I were them I would attack something else. If it were me, I’d see if I could shut down your planes and buses too. We know terrorists have attempted to smuggle explosives over our borders. Why not aggressive searches, and body scanners at all of our border check points? Oh, that’s right that would be racist, huh?
You need not speculate, Dwight. Many Conservatives like me railed against the Patriot Act. Every Libertarian naturally does. The problem is, up until now, we Conservatives barely had a voice. Between the Illiberal Media and the establishment Republicans, we were in the wilderness. We now have a voice because of the “libertarian moment”.
“He who defends everything, defends nothing.” – Frederick the Great
“A good offense is the best defense.” – Ulysses S. Grant (?)
Those are the foundations of how to approach this problem of jihad.
Never give power to the government just because “your side” is in charge, because eventually, the other side will get its hands on that power.
This is what happens. It is totally out of control. The more Obama is rejected, the more of this kind of stuff we will see in his petulant retaliation. It is PAYBACK! We grew the government under Bush, and Obama is now Bush on steroids. We Conservatives are NOT happy!
None of this was ever really necessary. When we got all wigged out and gave up our freedom, the Jihadists won. They are laughing at us through their raggedy beards. We are ruled now through Shariah, American-style.
I fly once or twice a month every month to destinations all over the western hemisphere and southeast Asia, and I used to fly to Europe and to the Middle East, too.
So perhaps because I’ve become accustomed to being screened wherever I go, I don’t give it a second thought anymore. For me, it isn’t any big deal. In fact, I never considered it to be an inconvenience, but rather just part of routine procedures for boarding any aircraft, foreign or domestic.
Some, though certainly not all Americans are spoiled crybabies. They’ll whine, bitch and moan about anything. They don’t know what it is to be REALLY inconvenienced by moronic government bureaucrats, examples of which would make you shudder and cringe if I listed some of my unpleasant experiences in other countries here. We’ve got it pretty good in this county.
Don’t blame our government bureaucrats. Blame the terrorists who have created this situation. There are nuts of all kinds everywhere nowadays, like, for example, that sick freak who laced bottles of Tylenol with arsenic several years ago, and that other sick freak who mailed envelopes filled with anthrax.. To be sure, those sick freaks were domestic terrorists, too. It’s the times that we live in. A permissive, immoral society spawns nuts of all kinds. We need to ferret out and crack down on them, not on our government.
Ezra Levant has weighed in: http://ezralevant.com/2010/11/the-american-department-of-gro.html
Need more be said?
Remember not so long ago when all we heard from the left and the media was about the “potential abuse” foisted on the American public by John Ashcrof? He was the first secretary of Homeland Defense appointed by G.W. Bush. Looking back on those days, I can safely say that there would NEVER be a day when Ashcroft would approve of such behavior or intrusiveness into people’s private areas…literally! Had he tried, he would have been run out of town on a rail. Why should we now accept this sort of short sighted and narrow minded behavior from Napolitano? I do not blame the TSA. To me, the soul of the organization is the soul of the leader. This falls squarely in Sec. Naplitano’s lap. I hope this backfires on her very soon!
I don’t believe that the amount of radiation emitted from these scanners is the problem. I think that the problem lies with an intrusive, bullying, anti-American government that is dancing around the Muslim terrorism issue and penalizing the average American citizen. Janet Napolitano should be 1) investigated and chased out of office, or 2) hit right between the eyes with a 2×4. This hideous crone is a serial sexual predator and she has ordered the white/black/brown/yellow/purple trash that she has hired to sexually molest and humiliate a particular segment of the American public. That would be infants, children, men, and women who pose no threat at all to the Republic. Others, apparently, will be given a pass- that would be Muslim women wearing religious garb. Isn’t this odd since these are the very people trying to kill all of us? Congress needs to investigate Napolitano, the DHS needs to be disbanded, and this government, including Herr Obama, needs to abide by the Constitution. This government should also halt all travel by Muslims and profile the he** out of every Muslim that even comes near an airport. The DHS has been a useless waste of tax dollars since its inception and it now believes itself to be an arm of Stalin. Enough is enough.
I think people are missing some very crucial points when they denounce the body searches by TSA. The issue being raised by [some] citizens I beleve stems from a two-prong problem. 1) “political correctness” legislated by the federal government as illegal. 2) the mis-interpretation of the Fourth Amendment as it pertains to warrant and warrantless personal searches as it has been interprested by the Supreme Court on several occaisions and is the law of the land.
The first, would have to be re-legislated to overcome. The second, already allows [conditional] warrantless personal and personal property searches by entities of law enforcement. The ONLY issue here to discuss is, that of “probable cause” as it relates the TSA’s personal methods and [options] of searches.
In my opinion, there are no factual questions of constitutional/judicial standing, pertaining to probable cause and the warrantless searching of persons or the persons property during the boarding process of commercial flights. This issue has long been settled and practiced including, the practice of strip searches for commercial flights and most all government buildings and installations around the country.
The only real question is, I supose, the [method(s)] of searches used on the person. I would submit, that hand and strip seaches among other methods, have long been deemed by the courts including the Supreme Court to be appropriate. In the most recent news making case, that young uninformed man obiviously knows nothing about law and especially when he stated ” you touch my junk and I’ll have you arrested.”
Laws are constructed with specific “elements” and in the case of most criminal laws [intent] is nearly always one of the elements of the law. I seriously doubt that young man could prevail in proving that any touch of his “junk” was done to somehow with the intent to [sexually arouse] either himself or the agent conducting the search by hand. On the otherhand, he would not be able to prevail in any “assult” charge insomuch as the simple touching of another element during the search by a law enforcement official is NOT deemed an assult.
Sure we all wish we didn’t have to put up with such matters to travel but, we’re at war with animals who have proven daily to value NO PERSONS safety or life. I for one, have no problems with any searches that will prove to give us all some peace of mind while flying to our destinations with some reasonable safety from the actions of our enemies.
If we could all get past the political correctness and follow the intelligence profiles of the enemies and their strategies, most of us would not be subjected to these kinds of searches during the war we’re in.
Hey, don’t get lawyerly with us; we’re talking about righties FEELINGS here. Annie has gone over the edge and Sparrow hawk is ready to strip, while others mutter ominously about getting to the root of all this to solve the problem. What does THAT mean, invading Iran and Saudi Arabia simultaneously?
Within the last year, the Foxies were pounding the meme that security was lax because we had had a couple near misses. Now the deal is that security is too intrusive. Obama and his cronies are obviously to blame in both cases.
On the one hand, people fear that Muslim women will eventually not have to be searched, whereas with profiling, they might be searched twice, right?
To me, this is all a tempest in a (gulp) teapot. I will get concerned when another plane explodes or gets hijacked. Then there will be moaning, and wailing and gnashing of teeth…and it will be Obama’s fault.
I guess I can understand the libertarian view that you can push your agenda more when lefties control things because more of the center right will follow you then, whereas with a GWB in power they will not. Got it.
I must have eaten something laced with an hallucinogenic drug.
I find myself agreeing with Dwight, whose looniness is exceeded only by his, well, by his looniness.
I agree that warrants are not required to conduct searches in many cases. I don’t recall anyone having suggested that the TSA procedures are invalid because of the lack of a search warrant.
True,
Some strip and other arguably invasive searches are permissible in some circumstances. For example, someone arrested or about to be put in jail can properly be searched, even invasively and including a body cavity search, to protect the arresting officer and jail personnel. That does not, however, mean that such indignities are permissible in all circumstances, regardless of (a) lack of probable cause to believe that the person to be searched has committed or is about to commit a crime, (b) the lack of necessity for their invasive nature and (c) their likely ineffectiveness in responding to that necessity. Were a policeman to stop every tenth person walking normally down a sidewalk to conduct an anatomically revealing electronic scan or a full and objectionably invasive pat down of the sort now used by the TSA because some people have committed horrific crimes using concealed bombs or weapons, it seems unlikely that the practice would withstand constitutional scrutiny.
To lump all searches together misses the point. What is excessively invasive and demeaning is a judgment call and judgment must be exercised reasonably. Where should the line be drawn? Having one’s baggage passed through an X ray machine or having one’s person subjected to a metal detector is neither excessively invasive nor demeaning and I have not heard anyone claiming seriously that either is. However, there has to be some point at which some species of non-probable cause searches of people not under arrest or even suspected of criminal activity are patently unreasonable. Being subjected to a routine anal cavity search (not yet done), for example, would be patently unreasonable, particularly in the absence of any legitimate reason to think that something dangerous might be lurking there; the mere possibility that someone might have something dangerous there is hardly adequate justification; most anything is at least possible. Although the present TSA procedures don’t go that far, I think they nevertheless fall into the same category.
Peace of mind is good; a false sense of security is not and that seems to be what the TSA is promoting; it’s in the nature of “don’t just stand there, do something – anything.”
There, sir, is the key. Not only would we not be subjected to “these kinds of searches,” the sense of security would be real rather than false.
Mr Miller is right in most cases and by doing so kills off the issue of whether or not it is Constitutional. It is. The question then comes down to two parts; Is it right? Is it efficient?
Sadly the answer to both is no. From my website:
“First, let me address the Constitutional fourth amendment aspect and put it to rest. Regardless of what some are saying, it is not a violation. The reason is simple- you don’t have to fly. You see, in America you almost have to drive, or walk, or stand or exist. In any of those actions you do not have the option to opt out of doing them. In addition, the Constitution is pretty clear about what is safe from governmental intrusion and the word reasonable is there for a purpose.
Under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
What is reasonable? It is relatively simple in this case. It is what the people in charge of letting you exercise an option wants it to be. You see, they aren’t in your front living room searching you. You are in THEIR living room, asking to be allowed to stay. It is their place, their rules. Don’t like it? Don’t go. Or you can change the legislation or remove the administration in the next election so that the rules will change…or don’t fly.”
The point here is that the TSA is filling a function, abet POORLY, by simply getting in the way of the dumb lazy terrorist. As I spoke with my former partner just today about it, I reminded him we are light-years from the days of D.B. Cooper. Nothing is the same, and until we destroy the element of Islamic extremism (or surrender to it) we will be forced to fight the threat in ways that are intrusive and damaging to our civil liberties. The option to the intrusion is to say to the government that we’ll be willing to take the causalities caused by an attack in exchange for no monitoring of civilian behavior or activity.
In the real world sometimes there are no good choices, only the least bad of the bad ones.
I do not defend the actions of the TSA. But it was the government and all the political garbage it is infected with (PC, catering to affirmative action, etc) that created the monster that has now taken on a life of its own. What is missing here is accountability and a series of recently filed lawsuits may just offer us the ability to find some and hold others responsible for their actions. However, I know the American public and have dealt with the typical person who demands we “do something” but doesn’t want to know or be bothered by what that something is. Sadly, it just doesn’t work that way here on planet earth. Do any of the critics of the TSA think for a second that if they let up and several planes were blown out of the sky, sending hundreds of men, women and children plunging earthward in a fiery death that there would be more people screaming for MORE security measures? Trust me, been there-done that will civilians.
As I said at the end of the post:
“The problem right now is there is no recourse, other than not to fly. I think that is a good option and it would not take long for airlines to make a call to their congressman about the falling profits. As for stopping the political correctness from crippling the TSA’s function…well good luck on that. As long as our society insists on shooting itself in the foot over the PC mantra we’ll be doomed to see citizens suffer. All we can do is ask the TSA employees to take some matters into their own hands (or not- if you get my drift) and ask them to start using common sense and maybe a little compassion. Honestly, a nun and a three year old? Really?
Don’t they see stuff like that earns them the dumbass award, even if they are “above it all”?”
My point is this, leave the fourth amendment alone here. You are barking up the wrong tree. The key is profit (make the airlines pay) and elections (replace the idiots who thought this was a good idea). Outside that, we are going to have the issue of security haunt us for a long time, as it has Israel and other nations for generations. The question will come down to how much risk are you willing to accept in exchange for the security you deem acceptable?
Welcome to the 22nd Crusade. This time they are pushing against us.
Miller & Archer….I was only attempting to address the legality AND social thinking of the issue. The laws and the framing of the laws have decades of standing to support the TSA security procedures and the circustantual cause(s) which create the need for such procedures. The constitutions “welfare clause” has much more meaning than food stamps, unemployment benefits and medicaid. The constitution gives to the federal government wide and far reaching lattitude to keep the sovereignty of the United States and its citizenry SAFE from harm.
I don’t think it really comes down to the anarchist libertairians versus the communist socialists ideologies on this issue. I think its the time and eternity issue of peoples analytical thought process such as, “as long as it doesn’t involve me its all okay versus if it involves me then hell no, its not okay….or, profiling is okay so long as I’m not subject to the profiling, etc.
Take for example a women or a man who has no problem with a doctor who they let voluntarily invades their “personal” spaces. Why is that not a problem? Because they have analyzed in their minds that it is of “personal benefit” to [their own] health or even their life. I guess in the case of TSA procedures to benefit their safety or even their life, they fail to equate the two and deem such procedures as unlawfully invasive. Go figure!
I say that if, you don’t feel the TSA procedures are appropriate for your safety or life then simply exercise the same choice options you exercise when voluntairly allowing doctors to invade or NOT invade your “personal” areas. Its simply how a person is conditioned to rationalize as to the value they place on procedures directed towards theirs and others safety. For me, I’m going to allow the TSA every procedure possible to grant me some assurance I and all others will make it safely to our destinations during this grave time of threat that hovers over America and its citizens.
A few months ago there was an email circulating with a tongue-in-cheek suggestion to replace the body scanners with a scanner that detonates all the explosives that a person has on their body. No profiling required.
Everyone needs to start going to the airport in these costumes:
What to grope first?
Or, you could go with an unwashed/wiped groin and buttocks; Tell them it’s your religion to not clean yourself.
Because I no longer fly because I’d only get into a fight with the first person who touched me or ordered me to take involuntary radiation treatments and wind up in jail, I propose that regular travelers form a plan to simply strip totally naked, place everything in the gray basket, and oblige the TSA staff. “Isn’t this what you want?” should be the retort to any surprise or outrage by TSA employees. Makes sure the press or someone with a video camera is present to record what ensues. Send the video to Janet Napolitano, with salutations. “Your loving subjects, etc.” or “Your obedient servants,” or “Wish you had been here.” I’m certain this kind of incident would be headline news the TSA and DHS would not welcome.
If TSA staffers reply, “We don’t mean THAT!” ask, “Then what do you mean? Isn’t this what you’re leading up to?”
“It’s not for you to judge. We’re going to have you arrested for indecent exposure! And for anything else we can think of, and we can think of plenty.”
“Presuming you can think,” you should reply sotto voca. If you’re a man, you should say to any female TSA staffer, “Come here, darling, and let me give you a big hug so I can pat YOU down.” If you’re a female passenger, you should latch onto a male TSA staffer, saying, “Hey, big boy, mind if I sample the family jewels?” If you’re a homosexual or lesbian passenger, you can invent your own come-on. I wouldn’t know what that might be.
I think consternation would be an inadequate term to describe the TSA response. Panic, flight, whistle-blowing, bring in the tasers, perhaps. Oh, and be one of you carry a placard printed with the text of the Fourth Amendment.
Some of you folks must smoke funky weed for a living.
I have been accosted by Israeli security before boarding an El AL flight, even though I am a classic WASP. To compare TSA’s joke of airport security to Israel’s is clear evidence of insanity. TSA’s measures are nothing but PC run amok and always have been.
How some of you can say these new procedures are not violations of the 4th amendment is the same as reading 1+1=2 and saying “no, it’s 3.” But then, it is just another classical example of how people have so used to “positive law” to screw up things we are drowning in our own paperwork.
The issue simply is the US government does not profile, so it has to assume everyone is a criminal. So they treat everyone as a criminal. And you can always find some leftist “lemming” on the Federal Bench to agree with you.
If you’d like to drive cross-country, fine. If you want to fly on a plane that I’m getting on, you’re going through the TSA search procedure. The constitution has nothing to do with it.
4th Amendment? No, no no, what the TSA is doing is completely legal. How do I know? Because we got a couple of guys name of Gonzalez and Woo who wrote it down in a memo. Yep, got it right here:
“We can forthwith and heretofore grope any passenger in any way, shape, manner or form pursuant to the adherence to the Constitutional mandate mandating the mandate to keep America safe . . . and because we say so.”
There you go. Your government at work. Patriots of the highest order. Fine public servants working hard to keep you safe. Frankly, I was feeling a bit ignored lately. You see I’ve gotten kind of used to the idea that the feds can track my e-mails, my library records, my banking records, hell they can even enter my house when I’m not home, search through my belongings, leave, and not even tell me they were there . . . without a warrant! Am I fine with that? You betcha. But put your hand on my thigh! That’s where I draw the line.
It’s not that I’m wildly repressed sexually and that anything to do with my nether regions makes me feel a little icky. And it’s not because Uncle Ernie showed me how to “bait his hook” that day in the bass boat. No, no, nothing like that. It’s just that we can’t let some partisan political hacks choose when and where the Constitution is applied now, can we?
What the hell is wrong with you people?
“What the hell is wrong with you people?” – Your Sensei: #49 @ 7:20 am
Um, where would you like me to start?
Anywhere.
I thought what we have here is a Second Amendment issue — the right to bare our asses.
“Opt-Out” doesn’t mean “refuse to fly”, e.g., reducing delays by reducing travel.
It means “refuse to be virtually stripped and MAKE THEM FEEL YOU UP!
They want to “encourage” us to submit. Let’s “encourage” them to find honest work.
Seriously?! Is nobody else aware that this entire TSA Screening issue has nothing to do with security, and that it offends privacy or decency only as a means of achieving its end. This is an intentional attack on the ECONOMY by the current Administration. Knowing that many Americans would balk at these excessive/ineffective measures, Napolitano’s advice is to NOT FLY. The airline industry is already ailing, and this could kill it.
It is also an attack on an individual liberty, but not the one you think. It violates the 4th Amdt and privacy only conincidentally. The real attack is on Freedom of Movement. Free movement of citizens is not wanted in communist totalitarianisms. The easiest way to ensure this is to collapse the industry that allows greatest movement.
Lastly, like most of the other offenses against liberty proposed or enacted by our government recently, it is designed to get citizens acclimated to ever more oppressive government intrusion. It is designed so that once it is accepted at airports, it will be acceptable elsewhere. You are beiong conditioned to accept a POLICE STATE. (Likewise with the cameras newly installed in Manhattan and other places).
Jesus!! Didn’t any of you people even read 1984?!?!
We are at war because (just in case we haven’t noticed its fourteen-hundred-years-long history of rape and torture and sexual mutilation and murder and all-around basta*dy) the psychopathologically hesperophobic barbarians with whom we are at war, continue to tell us so.
We know, therefore, who is the enemy and — because he has done it about 100,000 times in just the past couple of decades — we know what the enemy intends.
So profile the mongrel basta*d, root him out — and get him off our aeroplanes!
And let the rest of us get on with our Judeo-Christian/Western/Human Civilization-ordered lives.
Simple, eh?
Next?
According to this article, a different technology is deployed at Amsterdam’s Schiphol Airport. It costs about the same as the new TSA virtual strip machines, uses substantially lower doses of different radiation and detects “metallic and non-metallic materials, including explosives, gels, powders and liquids.” The stuff detected is displayed, not on an image of the passenger’s body, but on a “generic mannequin figure instead of on the actual image of the passenger’s body.”
SHOCKING AIRPORT VIDEO
Send this to everyone you know. This video is absolutely shocking. It’s frightening. How can peaceful, patriotic, America-loving, law-abiding citizens protect themselves from the government? Unless this is stopped now, even worse terror will be perpetrated against us by our own government. Who will protect us from the government?
The TSA is out of control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhkQoiaf7Uc&feature=player_embedded
If we all stop flying for one week they would stop these useless body scanners and unconstitutional pat downs. Remember what our founders said, Give Me LIBERTY Or Give Me DEATH! It is okay to feel up Americans private body parts, but do not profile certain people. Stop this nonsense and tell the Islamic Terrorist, that if they attack America in any way we will retaliate with strong swift force on where they are hiding or the country they are hiding in. Do not threaten but back up the attack with force, no matter what country the terrorist are using to stage these attacks from. Till the so called good Muslims rise up and stop these radical Islamic Terrorist. Do not cry on my shoulder about the innocent people that will be killed. Is it okay for our American troops to be killed in trying to free Muslims? Knowing that the Muslims are using their own women and children as human shields. The media does not report that Islamic terrorist kill civilians. They just report the civilians that America`s and Israel kill. Stop killing our troops for nothing win and end this war now!
TSA was bad enough under Bush, but under Obama it’s become the T&A. What’s worse about the government’s reacharound is the pathetic agreement to it by some cowardly people so paranoid about the next-to-zero chance of being killed by a terrorist. I’m amazed they ever leave the house. Frisking nuns in an effort to find terrorists – and it’s not even satire. The terrorists have won. Terrified people into accepting all kinds of indignities and humiliations. The goal of terror is to spread fear by low-cost means. Success! I truly loathe flying now, but how else am I gonna get to Europe.
To show you how well US airport security works: I’d inadvertently left a huge combat knife in my carry-on backpack, in a compartment behind the main one. I thought I had lost the knife. Judging from the last time I’d seen it, I think I flew with it 4 times, including transatlantic. A TSA official even searched my backpack for 20 minutes, taking off every lens cap, swiping it with magical dust and what not. Cause you know, those $5000 Canon lenses are known WMDs. Guess what he didn’t find ? The 7 inch knife. Who eventually found it ? Airport security in BARCELONA. Where I wasn’t groped, kept my shoes on etc. Thankfully it was in Europe, as they just thought it was hilarious. Held it up and showed it to the other officers. The nice lady asked me if I wanted to mail it to myself. I guess they had the good sense to deem an Austrian-American photographer harmless. I shudder at the thought of what would have happened at a US airport. (well, I’d probably still be flying with it LOL)
Btw, if you’re flying out of Amsterdam, be prepared to have your genitals grabbed and squeezed. No, not in the restroom, at the gate.
I really can’t stand the GOP, but Obama’s approaching similar levels of disapproval in my book.
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