Trayvon Martin: Scant Evidence, Already a Verdict
Little but the most rudimentary facts are known about the shooting: On the night of February 17, Trayvon Martin, a black 17-year-old boy, was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old white man. (Some news accounts have described Zimmerman as Latino.) Prior to the shooting, Zimmerman, who was active in his gated community’s neighborhood watch, phoned the Sanford police department and reported a suspicious person whom he described as a male black wearing a dark “hoodie,” jeans or sweat pants, and white tennis shoes. Exactly why Zimmerman found Martin worthy of suspicion remains unclear, but he told the police dispatcher there had been some break-ins in the neighborhood, and that “this guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”
Moments after the call to police ended, Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest, killing him. But why?
Zimmerman, who was licensed in Florida to carry a concealed weapon, told police he had fired in self-defense, but the details of his statement to investigators have not been made public. The dearth of details has not prevented an outcry calling for Zimmerman’s arrest for murder. So intense is the political pressure on prosecutors that Zimmerman will almost certainly be charged with a crime, but there is little chance he’ll be convicted of one, certainly not murder.
The death of Trayvon Martin is simply not one that will lend itself to a tidy resolution in the criminal justice system. This is not a case in which some homicidal predator killed someone in the course of a robbery. On the other hand, Zimmerman’s critics have painted him as an overzealous vigilante who stepped beyond the customary limits of the neighborhood watch member by pursuing a person who had done nothing more than behave suspiciously.
Indeed, Zimmerman seems an easy figure to caricature. At National Review Online, Robert VerBruggen calls him “a classic cop wannabe.” Zimmerman, VerBruggen writes, “lov[ed] the thought of himself as a police officer, and witnessing a spate of break-ins in his neighborhood, he decided to patrol the streets in his SUV — carrying a gun (as he was licensed to do) and calling the cops 46 times in the course of a year to report ‘suspicious’ activity.”
Most police officers will recognize the archetype that VerBruggen assumes Zimmerman to be: the guy who wants to be a cop but for some reason cannot, but who nonetheless acts as a sort of watchman for his neighborhood, calling the police for any perceived breach of good order. And calling the police 46 times in a single year would indeed seem excessive if not psychotic. But, as Andrew Cohen reports at the Atlantic, Zimmerman’s 46 calls to police came over the course of 11 years, not one, with the confusion owing to a typo on a report released by the Sanford police. And given the level of crime in the area, an average of four calls per year may not be an inordinate amount at all. (The website Crimemapping.com lists 282 crimes within a mile of the site of the shooting within the last six months, including three burglaries within the gated community itself.)
Much has been made of the claim the Zimmerman “pursued” Martin against the advice of the police dispatcher. On the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call, the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following the suspect. Zimmerman replies that he is. “We don’t need you to do that,” says the dispatcher.
Note that the dispatcher’s words were something less than imperative. But even if the dispatcher had expressly directed Zimmerman not to follow the suspect, would Zimmerman have been legally bound to follow such a direction? No, he would not.
Take a look at Zimmerman’s photo. He is Mexican with very little Spanish ancestry.
The great hustle has begun. From sharpton to jackson. The black panthers to obama himself. DON’T FORGET the msm, this is all a show and a political ploy. The usual race hucksters have an election they also have to influence. Scratch just beneath the surface and you expose this abomination. Why are they showing 5 to seven year old pictures of both parties??? Where’s Trayvon Martins gangster pose pictures??? They’re out there and being posted. Why is the “official” picture of this kid showing him as 13 years old and clean cut??
It would be nice if Pajamas had a picture of Zimmerman at 14 as depicted in this article. Why not airbrush in a halo on TM ?
LARAZA and LULAC are silent; I guess becaused he’s not Mexican enough ??
Poverty Pimpin Reverands will have a cottage industry as long as “victimization” is part of the black culture.
Don’t wait for the evidence; we know the answer
It’s interesting that young black men are getting killed in mass everyday in big cities around this country in the drug and gang epidemic… Not a peep from the African American community till the shooter has light skin. It’s starting to look like a double standard.
Starting to look like a double standard??
Starting?
We’ve has several, OBVIOUS racially motivated attacks in Philadelphia recently.
A white college kid beaten to death near the Liberty Bell, A white taxi cab driver beaten by a pack of wolves shouting “racial slurs”, and a white man shot to death by blacks on his front steps following a minor fender bender.
Not to mention the recent violence of the “flash-mobs” of minority teens going wild with assaults vandalism and thiefts in “affluent” parts of the city. Always black/minority perps, always white/asian victims…
And ALL of the racial implications are dismissed as irrelevant. “Kids just being knuckleheads” says the (black) police chief after they yelled “white-boy” “cracker” and “white motherf*cker” and beat this one, shot that one, and robbed the other one.
No bias crimes here folks, move along, nothing to see.
Where is Reverand Al?
Florida.
You’ve got it right, these days it always becomes news when black is killed by non-blacks. When killings occur among themselves, however, no big deal, just move along.
By the way Rev Al, the opportunist-in-chief, is already in Sanford, Fl. while the racist-in-chief Pres. Obama, already made a statement this morning about Trayvon Martin.
That someone would ‘attack’ someone in ‘self-defense’ upon finding that person armed begs credibility. I’m waiting more information but I caution piling on Zimmerman as the media is doing.
Also, what is the deal with the media calling Zimmerman “white or hispanic”. Aren’t hispanics white too?
They can be. The great VDH once offered what amounted to a trade of “Amnesty in exchange for no racial preferences or acknowledgement”. Blacks might not oppose on the grounds that they convince some of the Carribean Latinos to be black and gain back some clout.
If the New York Times had stated that Zimmerman is “hispanic,” the unctous and feckless Al Sharpton would have had to figure out how he could get away with protesting against and publically crucifying Zimmerman on his own. Al lives on New York City, and he can ill afford to tick off the hispanics that are stupid enough to support him and his brand of ” anti-everything” rabble rousing and denigration. The liberal lefties at the New York Times were giving Al the metaphorical checkered flag to let the race (baiting) begin! And so it has. Meanwhile, elsewhere in the country, agroup of black kids beat and set on fire an 11 year old white youth just a few days ago. You won’t read about that in the big city liberal media beacons. Nor will Sharpton or Jackson or the pathetic NAACP launch “justice” marches on that poor white child’s behalf. And does anyone with a functioning brain think that a “refexive automaton” like Eric Holder would ever call out his Justice Department dogs to throw HATE CRIME indictments against the black kids in that incident? Not in this lifetime! I’m left to wonder if the black kids were wearing makeshift hoods when they set the kid they attacked on fire. *Probably not because blacks don’t need to wear masks to openly perpetrate and get away with heinous crimes ( just like they don’t need to show valid ID to vote according to Obama and Holder ). There is a sickness spreading in this country. Four more yeats of Holder and Obama et al, will only spread it wider and deeper. I pray that the “truth” is found in the Zimmerman case, but I fear Mr. Zimmerman is going to get the same kind of injustice that Al Sharpton laid upon the skewered police officers and NYC official that Sharpton tarred and feathered in the infamous Tawana Brawley case.
The thought just occured to me that there could have been a scuffle for the gun. Most people would cower at the sight of one. But some would attempt to grab it to prevent it being used on them.
Its possible that they mutually surprised each other. Zimmerman with his gun out would be an immediate threat to Martin who may have acted instinctively by going for the gun.
But no matter how you look at it, the fact that the kid is dead is truly sad. He did nothing to deserve it or to invite it beyond possibly making some fateful decisions in a state of fear that ultimately cost him his life. Poor kid. But I also hope that if Zimmerman is telling the truth about what happened that the tragedy is not compounded by him being railroaded. I’ll be waiting to see how this plays out before judging him.
“He did nothing to deserve it or to invite it beyond possibly making some fateful decisions in a state of fear that ultimately cost him his life.”
How do you know this is true? The self serving media has a runaway train with this one. Not my job to judge, I hope the true facts come out.
Aren’t hispanics white too?
Not usually, and not in this case. Pictures of Zimmerman are widely available online.
“Hispanic” basically means “from one of Spains colonies”. Therefore, it cannot be a “racial” term. Find a Cardassian calling Guatemala home and he would be an Hispanic.
From his appearence, I’d say Zimmerman is a mix blood: A little bit of white (maybe)and several American Indian tribes. Hard to say which considering how overweight he is. (Indians are easier to identify when they are skinny.)
he looks more Asian
indians are asian.
I’m waiting for Zimmerman to undergo the full Rubio treatment including a cousin linked to the LKs or MS-13. Note he USED to live in Mannassas, VA (Prince William Co., as it turns out). A smart attorney for Martin would explore these avenues of character assassination. If he is Mexican, me, my wife and the legal half of my town would put a statue up in one of the local churches.
Is this article stating that the media is not giving all of the information accurately?!?! INCONCIEVABLE! The media has ALWAYS been a bastion of accurate reporting! Like the Bush Air Force papers, or the Tet offensive, or the Occu-poopers, or the numerous other reporting “Failures”…
I’m trying to see this case from Dunphy’s point of view – someone who’s probably experienced many such incidents and seen how they’re dealt with by lawyers. What’ll it be – the case of a responsible citizen defending his neighborhood against a suspicious youth, or the case of an innocent youth defending himself against suspicious stranger armed with a pistol?
Sadly, many people have already made up their minds and will only accept one of two outcomes – the conviction of Zimmerman for murder or a race riot.
I don’t know if Zimmerman is a murderer. It does appear, however, that he went looking for trouble and found it. As the one with the gun, he should have known better.
Bugs:
“As the one with the gun, he should have known better”
Yup, and I’m surprised Dunphy didnt pick up on that more.
I’ve been a Firearms Instructor for over 30 years. When you are armed citizen, you are (in most places) held to a higher standard of conduct and decision making than an UNarmed citizen.
A rude driver cut you off? Flipped you the bird?
Let it go, youre ARMED.
A drunk leering at your wife while your in the Restaraunt?
Let it go, or LEAVE if you feel it could escalate, because youre ARMED.
Giving a “look back”, a hand gesture, or somehow admonishing the jerk is a BAD IDEA,
because if it escalates from there, YOU are the one who screwed up.
Because you are ARMED, most likely, with a CONCEALED weapon.
The Jerk doesnt KNOW you are armed (and if youre doing it right, wont ever).
You already possess the power to KILL him, so its your responsibility to let go of the pettiness of who’s “right” and who’s wrong. You are expected to be the “smart one”, the “cool-headed” one. You may protect yourself from an assault but you cant lecture, admonish, or “prove” anything, because as a person of HIGHER responsibility, you have to ASSUME such would further irritate an already “bad behaving” jackass.
That being the elevated responsibility of being armed, you also do NOT escalate a “suspicious” situation….the “what good will come from this” consequence of escalation is YOUR responsibility to consider, because YOU ARE ARMED.
Zimmerman should have never left his vehicle and followed the guy on foot. The kid presented no physical threat to him, and he was IN CONTACT with a police dispatcher. As an ARMED CITIZEN, it was Zimmermans responsibility to consider the consequences of a foot persuit, and what would (or could or might) occur when the “suspect” was “caught” by you, in plain clothes, ARMED, and off your own property.
And I cant find anything “good” that COULD have occured, when THE POLICE were already aware of the situation.
Was it “illegal” to do so, was he “required by law” to stop and return to his car
after the dispacther said “you dont have to do that”?
As Dunphy points out, No he was not.
But was it the SMART thing to do? Again, the answer is no.
Because when it goes to trial, (civil or criminal) a JURY has to decide WHO was more culpable in this “tragic misunderstanding”, and the answer is pretty clear.
The guy with the gun made a Bad Decision.
His Bad Decision took him from a safe place (his car)
to an UNsafe place. (Close phyical proximity to the “suspect”)
The two of them are not “equal”. Of the two, Zimmerman was expected to BE the smarter one, the one to EXCERCISE better judgement, the one MORE aware of the potential bad consequences resulting from a foot persuit of a “suspicious” person.
Racial politics aside, you dont ‘corner” a suspect who’s not on your own property.
Even if the guy IS a gang banger with intent to whoop your ass.
Bingo.
I have no idea if Zimmerman acted criminally or not. We absolutely do NOT have enough information to justly draw that conclusion.
There DOES seem to be enough info at this pint to conclude he acted stupidly.
10,000+ this.
It’s not your job to chase down, follow etc ‘suspicious’ people. Be aware of them, and remember them, but do NOT engage unless you are threatened in a way that you cannot deescalate.
I will not accuse him of murder, in fact I won’t pass judgment on what happened in favor of either man. I wasn’t there. I don’t know the details.
HOWEVER: Zimmerman, by his acts, is at least PARTIALLY responsible for the escalation.
Absolutely right on, Spuds. Having a concealed carry permit, and recently completed the mandatory training required in KY (yes, it’s a Red state, but no, they don’t give you a handgun when you register to vote), you are following the correct logical path in analyzing this situation. Zimmerman could easily be convicted of criminally negligent homicide.
Your comments are quite accurate.
Actually, I see this as 1) one to be used to show a “reacial” issue and 2) it will be used to try and strip down our right to own and carry…
I disagree. We have surrendered too much power and responsibility to the police. This gives criminals too much leeway. Cornered by neighborhood watch, or some homeowner? Wait, use your constitutional rights as a burglar, let the racial politics get you out of it, even though moments before you threatened the life and livelihood of someone else. When burglars are killed in the process and the shooter is rewarded, burglars will rethink their professional choices. This kid was casing the neighborhood. Don’t like the wild west scenario? It’s only wild west because there was no law there. Like now. When things happen, the law isn’t there. Their job is not to prevent it, but to deter it, and they can’t do that and save money at the same time. The only decent deterrent is an armed homeowner ready to use it who is not punished when he does. I don’t hear anyone mention if the kid had any record, or ties to a gang, or record of drug use, or anything that might indicate he might have been a sneak thief. But, again, you have to take the right to self-defense past the “I’m being attacked at the moment” and into the “You’re casing my house? You stop or I’ll shoot” and when they run, shoot them. Sorry, but you have to make the punishment harsh, you do their recruiting for them.
Sorry Doc,
Part of the responsibility of Weilding a firearm is to KNOW AND PLAN FOR THE FACT THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW ALL THE CIRCUMSTANCES, especially when you are engaging in what is basically “third party intervention”.
He was not being attacked, his home was not being entered, and he was completely off his property, “following” someone.
This kid may have been a mass murderer, but the guy following him could not POSSIBLY know that. As an armed citizen, it was HIS responsibility to be AWARE OF THAT UNKNOWN PART OF THE PUZZLE, and not place himself in a situation (like close physical proximity?) where a REASONABLE PERSON could forsee how confusion/fear/misunderstanding by BOTH PARTIES could cause an ESCALATION of the event beyond ANYONES control.
It is simply bad form to “corner” someone (who may not BE a criminal) when you are armed and not in a police uniform. Because that person could very well BE scared shitless thinking YOU are the aggressor, and put up a death-fight, BASED on that (reasonable) belief. An armed citizen that DOESNT TAKE THAT SIMPLE REALITY into account, and plan accordingly, is negligent.
Even IF someone IS entering your home, you generally are not permitted to just summarily shoot them without warning, and for good reason…it is entirely possible that person may be fleeing a “greater danger” to themselves, such as a rabid dog or angry “flash mob”, and are they are pounding on your door screaming in a panic for HELP.
You need an actual,legitimate moral perception of harm coming your way, not just simple indignation that someone dared cross your threshhold. You need a MORAL as well as a LEGAL right, to use deadly force. Shoot beacause you “need to” not just because “you can”.
Posessing a firearm (of any type or design) is my RIGHT and I’ll defend it to my death, but WIELDING a firearm has enourmous responsibilities that go along with it.
One of them is an adult level “what if..” type of thinking, especially when deciding to involve yourself in a NON SELF DEFENSE situation, while armed.
Sometimes, (like when you are only a WITNESS to something?) it is best to hang back, stay safe, observe, and WAIT for the police.
Because they might otherwise see YOU in plain clothes with a gun, and shoot your dumb ass responding to that “man with a gun/robbery” call, because THATS WHAT THE NEIGHBORS THOUGHT YOU LOOKED LIKE, when you decided to “corner that suspicious dude”….well off your own property….with a gun.
Sorry for all the “CAPS” PJM’ers, but I’ve spent 30 years teaching these basic principals to responsible armed people…
And a “failure” of this magnitude, with its bogus “racial implications” that WILL be used to harm the country and re-elect this A-hole president, when it was ALL EASILY AVOIDED BY APPLYING THE BASIC PRINCIPALS OF HOW TO BEHAVE WHEN ARMED, really pisses me off.
Even IF someone IS entering your home, you generally are not permitted to just summarily shoot them without warning, . . .
Wrong, at least here in Florida. Here’s the copy/paste directly from statute 776.013:
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
Translation: Forcefully break into someone’s home (or even attempt to do so) and you can be killed with impunity. Which is exactly as it should be.
A few states already had “castle doctrine” and “stand your ground” laws before Florida enacted its version in 2005, Since then, many other states have followed suit (the total is now 30). Check your state’s law (it should be available online), but if it was passed recently it’s likely identical to the Florida law, or nearly so.
From Robert Peels priciples of policing:
Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
We are all the police. At least, we should be.
I would trust “The Root 83″ to handle being armed on neighborhood watch, but I would never trust you to do handle it.
And there I see a problem, maybe “neighborhood watch” shouldn’t be armed when there are so many Dirty Harry wannabes out there. If we really need our neighborhoods patrolled by armed people, then we should have trained police.
Dave,
FYI, I would not BE on a neighborhood watch UNLESS I was armed, for my own safety.
That being said, neither would I ever follow a “suspicious” person on FOOT when my locked car was available to circle his last known location, while I WAIT FOR THE POLICE
We don’t have enough information to know who is at fault here. When I was in a neighborhood watch, our police adviser told us not to corner anybody or confront anybody off our own property and if we followed someone to do so from a very safe distance. In other words, don’t confront a potential criminal. Call the cops and let them do it unless the would-be criminal was actually on our property. If he was breaking into our home or threatened us on our property, self-defense was acceptable. I live in a shall issue CCW state with a castle doctrine law.
It’s clear Zimmerman is a Hispanic/Latino from his photo, probably mixed race. The first police report apparently called him white. Martin was dressed gangsta style, apparently. Lots of kids do that who have no connection to gangs, but how can you tell the difference? All the race baiting being engaged in by Obama, Sharpton, Jackson, etc. is truly shameful. I’m betting they don’t know the facts any more than we do, but they were quick to jump on the “white guy” shooter.
Thank you, Mr. Dunphy, for writing the most level-headed thing I’ve seen in the press about this ugly incident.
“Trayvon Martin’s death was tragic”
Tragic, completely unjustified, and murder is how it looks. And, there needs to be a trial just to make sure things are how they look.
Why are you so invested in stirring up anger over this case, Dave?
Don’t be absurd.
Having a trial is how we examine the matter dispassionately, and remove anger from the equation.
It looks to me like there’s reason to believe that Zimmerman murdered Martin, with no justification whatsoever, and there ought to be a trial to determine whether or not that’s the case.
Am I angry that a 17 year old boy was shot and killed?
Yes, that makes me upset.
It looks to me like there’s reason to believe that Zimmerman murdered Martin, with no justification whatsoever, and there ought to be a trial to determine whether or not that’s the case.
Where did you get your law degree? We do not arrest people, charge them with murder, and put them on trial just to determine if they are or are not guilty.
The DA looks at the facts of each case and determines if the facts of the case warrant prosecution, and if so on what charge. Based on the facts I’ve seen reported in this case, combined with Florida law about self defense, a murder prosecution of Zimmerman would be very unlikely to succeed.
It sure looks like murder.
Based on the available information, I see exactly zero justification for Zimmerman provoking a confrontation with, and then shooting and killing an unarmed 17 year old boy, who appears to be guilty of the crime of walking down the street with a candy bar in his pocket, and nothing more. And, if that’s the case, it’s murder.
“We do not arrest people, charge them with murder, and put them on trial just to determine if they are or are not guilty.”
That’s exactly what we do, if it looks like murder.
Obviously.
killing an unarmed 17 year old boy, who appears to be guilty of the crime of walking down the street with a candy bar in his pocket, and nothing more.
If that is indeed the case then it it is hard to understand why the authorities have not moved to prosecute Zimmerman. The fact that they have not done so suggests that your description of the facts may well be incorrect. I’m sensing that you are the sort of person who has a very hard time in telling the difference between his own feelings and objective facts.
Mr. Surls, do you even understand the concept of murder? I mean, what would you consider this case to be: possibly a case of pre-meditated murder (1st degree) or is it unpremeditated murder (2nd degree)? Does not “murder” always entail an INTENT to kill (whether pre-meditated or not)?
How many rounds to Zimmerman fire off? Is it likely that he was carrying a pistol with just one round of ammunition?
The fact that he fired only one round and was in constant communication with the authorities, clearly shows a lack of intent to kill.
You say, “killing an unarmed [...um...did Zimmerman know that Martin was unarmed...] 17 year-old boy, who appears to be guilty of the crime of walking down the street with a candy bar in his pocket, and nothing more.”
I guess it was the candy bar which was responsible for Zimmerman’s bloody nose and the gash to the back of his head.
It would appear that they were already in a physical altercation when Zimmerman pulled out his gun and fired ONE SHOT into Martin’s chest.
Whatever happens to Zimmerman, this clearly does not look like “murder”. (Not even “felony murder”; because you’d have to demonstrate that Martin was killed by Zimmerman as Zimmerman was attempting to rob him or was intending to commit some other felony crime against him.)
Its most likely not “murder” in the classic sense.
I dont think Zimmerman didnt set out to kill someone. Probably didnt want to.
But he put HIMSELF there, in a situation where he didnt forsee the consequences.
When you are armed, you MUST consider what your “appearance” is to others.
If its at all possible to be MISTAKEN for something you are NOT, you need to be aware of that.
“do I LOOK like a bad guy?” is a basic question an armed person needs to consider when approaching someone.
“what if I’m wrong, and I scare the crap out of them?”
“would they THINK possibly, that I’M A MUGGER, and this could get crazy?”
These are basic questions an armed citizen MUST consider, especially when “interveining” in a non-violent situation, (stranger walking the street) as opposed to defending from an unprovoked assault.
With rights come responsibilities…Zimmerman KNEW he was armed. He should therefore have considered WHAT HIS ACTIONS COULD BE PERCIEVED AS IN CASE HE WAS WRONG while following someone ON FOOT.
I’d say no to ‘murder”, and yes to “monumental lapse of judgement” that unfortunately got someone killed.
Thank You Dave. Trayvon calling for help is clearly heard on the record of the 911 call. I think that your comments are correct.
To the rest of us, and apparently to the police, it’s not yet clear who’s voice we are hearing on that 911 recording.
Not a trial Dave, but a grand jury inquest after a police inquest. If the police inquest justifies a grand jury, then that proceeds, where it is then determined if an actual trial is then called for.
Boy, are you naive!
You mustn’t have spent much time around courts!
If you’re looking for justice, try checking the dictionary. The process IS the punishment. Where do people get off with this stupid crap? The day they arrest you, you might as well shoot yourself, no matter how guity or innocent you may be. You are now officially screwed, if you are not super-wealthy.
Al Sharpton just entered the pool. That should tell you enough.
Thank you, Mr. Dunphy. You’re the first one with any sense of justice I’ve heard.
By the way, if you ever get the chance to hang around the halls outside criminal courts, the criminals are overwhelmingly black, and act like they’ve spent their whole lives there. Because they have. If you set off a bomb, you would never, ever hit a middle-aged white man.
Never.
But 17 year old blacks? You’d bag your limit with a firecracker!
I’ve been charged (and found guilty) of a misdemeanor. Yes, “the system” is punishment, but you over state the degree.
(“Prompt trial” my …)
Upset enough to dispense with reason, apparently. For all we know, the kid lay in wait and whacked Zimmerman with a brick.
We simply do not have enough information to reasonably believe anything OTHER than an investigation is warranted.
Zimmerman didn’t get the gash on the head and the bloody nose from a bag of Skittles.
I have read, or listened to perhaps ten news reports on this tragedy. I read, this morning, that the investigating police noted that Mr. Zimmerman had a bloody nose and blood on the back of his head. No other report included this fact. However every one of the reports sited Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law. A number of national law school scholars have chimed in on this law. National Civil Rights legal and proponents are flying to Florida.
What is not reported? Facts.
We are, once again, going through a public trial on possession and use of a firearm, and race, without a scintilla of facts that these have any bearing at all on the death of the teenager. People are marching with the junk food he purchased. Why?
I would focus on the role of civilian watch groups, their training, arming, their interaction with police, the police patrol response times, the testimony of conflicting witnesses, and the thoroughness of the investigation of a homicide. The only thing I am sure of is that a family is in bitter grief, and national race lawyers are flying to Florida.
It is my judgment that 99.9999% of Americans want justice. Race apparently has absolutely nothing to do with this case, except for a few bigots, and those who make a living fomenting racial hatred. What we need is facts.
So what if he had a bump on his head and a bloody nose?
He was stalking someone, and that person “stood his ground” and defended himself.
If you want something underreported, then how about the fact that the Florida law does not apply if you started the fight?
With Zimmerman pursuing Martin, it is Martin who has the right to stand his ground, not Zimmerman.
It is Martin who has the right to use lethal force to defend himself, not Zimmerman.
“So what if he had a bump on his head and a bloody nose?”
It indicates he had an honest reason to believe he was in imminent danger of severe bodily harm.
“If you want something underreported, then how about the fact that the Florida law does not apply if you started the fight?”
This, of course, is the crux of the investigation.
“With Zimmerman pursuing Martin, it is Martin who has the right to stand his ground, not Zimmerman.
It is Martin who has the right to use lethal force to defend himself, not Zimmerman.”
Wrong. “Being pursued” is not grounds for using deadly force.
“Being pursued” is not grounds for using deadly force.
————————–
being pursued for what, Rob? Certainly not for committing a crime. This kid’s dad lived in the community; he wasn’t some outsider who came in looking for a quick score in an unoccupied house. And when did community watch volunteers start packing 9mm’s? As it was, Zimmerman not only initiated the confrontation, he was the who used deadly force. This is not about race; it’s about stupidity with a tragic ending and some jail time. .
“This kid’s dad’s girlfriend lived in the community; he was an outsider….”
Fixed it for you.
By the phrasing of Florida’s law, being pursued absolutely is grounds for defending yourself.
Once Martin suspected, on any level, that Zimmerman had a gun, it becomes grounds for using lethal force.
Why is Martin not entitled to the same claim of rights as Zimmerman?
Speculating in the absence of data: What if Zimmerman had grabbed Martin, who fought to free himself? That would put Zimmerman back in the wrong. We just don’t know what happened.
According to Zimmerman’s statement to the police, he was returning to his truck alone, to go meet police, when he was attacked. If this is true, it is pertinent.
A reading of these comments reveals enormous suppositions, prejudgement, without facts to substantiate them.
I repeat. We need facts, not guesses. There are competent, honest people working if Florida. I will await the fruits of their work. I am disturbed that basic police investigation work, in a homicide, appears to be lacking, but this may be just be unreported facts.
We need facts.
Too many possibilities to make any decisions now.
Can’t see why the kid would jump Zimmerman after he shook Zimmerman off his tail, but… We just don’t know at this point.
But, “pursuing” IS grounds for using deadly force?
How much and what types of drugs were found in Martin’s body, if any?
Might have some bearing. Might not.
Without facts your last sentence is just supposition. It may be true and it may not.
I think the most interesting thing about this is what the reactions from everyone would be if the races of the two people involved were reversed. I don’t expect anyone who has already made up their minds, especially those using race as their bellwether, to reexamine their conclusions. Al Sharpton certainly won’t.
Of course we do have the facts to support my last sentence – the 911 call where Zimmerman acknowledged that he was pursuing Martin – so no supposition is required.
I expect Zimmerman did not realize he was confessing when he said that, but that is his problem for thinking he was above the law.
The question is was he keeping Martin in view or chasing him down. Did he loose sight of Martin and get jumped, was there a struggle for the gun? I haven’t heard any evidence one way or the other. That is not proven one way or the other. You have made up your mind so I will leave you too it.
No open mind to be seen here, move along.
Irrelevant, he has no “right” to menace another person, stalking him and challenging his mere presence in an area.
As for closed minds it is clear you have already decided Zimmerman could have done nothing wrong.
Why?
Ok Sam, since you won’t read my posts in their entirety I will again say that I hold my judgment until more facts (those things you aren’t interested in apparently) come out.
I am not interested in another one of those “the facts were wrong but the narrative was right” moments for that is far too Howard Zinn for any intelligent person to accept.
Sam you raise interesting issues, what is the difference between following and pursuing. Also did you hear Zimmerman on his phone full of angst saying he is coming for me. Did you know that the youth was 6 feet three inches tall?
That is correct. The voice on the tape is young and terrified. I am Conservative and disgusted with the Mainstream Media…but this is not an issue of politics. A young boy was walking outside…and for this he was followed? Ask yourself: Why was he followed? What did he do to threaten anyone? The demographics of the neighborhood should not be significant since young people are allowed to have friends over and Trayvon could have been going to visit a school mate. This was unprovoked harassment that culminated in the death of a young boy who was trying to save his own life. It’s a terrible crime and no self defence law can change that. I do not believe that Trayvon would have been followed if he was a Caucasion boy. I believe that Trayvon was murdered and I also believe that the dispatcher was very clearly telling Mr. Zimmerman to not continue following Trayvon. He chose to continue and the boy is dead now. This is a National Heartbreak. Ann Rosen
Well said!! VERY well said.
You don’t believe Trayvon would have been followed if he were ‘Caucasian’?
Ms. Rosen, apparently you have the inner psyche, thought process of Mr. Zimmerman. Have you considered taking this Goddess-like talent public?
You just gave up your lucid I.D. card. Turn it in at the next kiosk please.
I can only HOPE if this case sees a trial YOU’RE NOT nor like minded knee-jerk reactionists are in the final jury pool.
For your emotionally led diatribe is just that. Blather.
Nonetheless thanks for the chuckle and sadly further proof Idiocracy is alive and well.
So it’s possible that the kid was laying in wait for him and attacked him with something.
We don’t know, do we?
“Race apparently has absolutely nothing to do with this case.”
We don’t know that. There are reports that Zimmerman used a racial slur during the 911 call. I listened to the tapes and it’s inconclusive as to whether the slur was actually uttered, but you have no basis to say conclusively that race was not a factor.
no basis to say conclusively race wasn’t a factor means there’s no basis to say conclusively race was a factor
Sir,
You have a pertenant comment a few lines below I was not aware of. If Zimmerman WAS attacked, blind sided and unprovoked after he “lost” track of the kid, he may have been within his rights to use deadly force…
You are correct, we need more facts…most of my above comments are based on my PERCEPTION of whats been reported thus far…that is, of him following, walking up to and “confronting” someone, and that may not be what actually occured.
But my opinions on the perils and responsibilities of armed citizens “following” people stand. With arms come responsibilities, and Zimmerman should be held to a higher standard of conduct than some kid.
Thanks for pointing out a fact I wasnt aware of
just stop. This has nothing to do Al Sharpton, detestable as he may be. This is about a community watch guy who thought it was okay to be armed with a 9mm handgun AND to accost someone he thought looked out of place. Really? How many neighborhood watches feature armed participants?
The evidence, as the public has seen it, points to a guy who acted way out of line with the expectations of his role at the time and in contravention to what the cops told him to do. Trying to defend Zimmerman is on a par with what the Sharpton set seeks to do.
Determining guilt, which you are doing, without being in possession of ALL the facts, is exactly the “vigilate” actions you are accusing someone else of.
So much for your support of “innocent until proven guilty.”
congratulations for creating a new class of individual – the thought vigilante. One would usually expect that from the HuffyPo or Kos types. Vigilantism implies taking action; I am merely expressing an opinion, one that happens to run counter to the author’s and, evidently, to yours.
This is not about Sharpton or black “punks”; it’s about a kid shot to death by a neighborhood watch guy. Curious that your list of questions did not include one asking who the hell on watch patrol carries a sidearm? Instead, you take the Obama approach of creating distractions with Sharpton and cases that have nothing to do with this one. No presumptions there, eh Sparky?
Quite a few do, in some areas. It’s not that unusual.
I personally, would NOT participate in any type of “neighborhood watch” UNLESS I was armed.
That being the said, neither would I “follow” anyone suspicious on foot when my locked car was available…and I had the local PD dispatcher on the line.
This is about a community watch guy who thought it was okay to be armed with a 9mm handgun
It IS okay to be armed with a 9mm handgun. Or a .40 handgun. Or a 357 Magnum handgun. (I’m assuming that Zimmerman had a permit for his gun. Florida being Florida and not, say, NJ, that seems like a reasonable assumption)
The evidence, as the public has seen it
What you meant to say, Alex, is that this is the media narrative as the public has been told, not “evidence.”
Zimmerman may have indeed acted recklessly, but we haven’t gotten all the facts. I would say that the primary reason why the cops haven’t arrested Zimmerman — which has outraged so many people who have only heard the media narrative so far — is that they are still not certain if Zimmerman has committed a crime by the strict interpretation of the law based on what they know so far. That may change in Zimmerman’s disfavor, maybe even as I’m typing this. We shall see.
You are correct, he may have committed no “crime” but the entire situation was avoidable if he would have acted more prudently…
Maybe no “criminal” prosecution is in order, but certainly a civil suit.
No civil suit, either. Not if it’s determined Zimmerman legally defended himself, at least. One of the hallmarks of Florida’s “stand your ground” law (as in all the other states) is immunity from civil liability. That’s to prevent the assailant (or his family, if he’s killed) from suing his victim. So if Zimmerman is cleared of all criminal liability, there will be no “ghetto lottery” for Trayvon’s family.
Alex
When the Rev Al is down there screaming for blood and aggravating the entire situation with no more facts than we have, it has everything to do with him. Everything to do, too, with other race baiters, like you perhaps, who are more interested in the “narrative” than the facts. That this story is such a big issue before the facts are in says nothing about what happened, and a great deal about the MSM, racial and Democratic politics, and leftist power games.
“It is my judgment that 99.9999% of Americans want justice. Race apparently has absolutely nothing to do with this case, except for a few bigots, and those who make a living fomenting racial hatred. What we need is facts.”
Unfortunately, this is a presidential election year, and one of the candidates has a vested interest in stirring up racial hatred.
99.9999% of 313 million is 313; we should find the 313 people who don’t want justice, and asked them, “Why don’t you want justice?”
What you guys have not asked is this: why shoot?
Concede that it all started when Zimmerman got punched in the nose and fell back onto a sidewalk and gashed the back of his head. OK, then why pull a gun? Especially if you know the cops are coming?
So to many white and black people here in Central Florida, this Zimmerman guy looks like a disaster.
Wait. This is a joke, correct?
You get punched in the nose, knocked down and you assume the police are coming? In time?
Have you been living under a rock, out of the news stream for like for ever? Dude, this is definitely the most outrageous milk-spewing-on-computer-monitor comment I have read in the last 5 years.
Now I know nothing about the specifics of this event, but if indeed the guy with the gun was punched in the nose and knocked down, what you definitely do is shoot the perp. To kill. You do NOT wait for the police, who never, ever come in time.
The police are here to distribute body bags. Your gun is here to kill people attacking you.
Hey, genius, they have released plenty of the specifics: a description of Zimmerman’s wounds, the 911 calls, description of Trayvon Martin at the scene, etc. Local radio and TV is all over the story down here in Florida.
So if you do not know the specifics, do not assume everyone is as ignorant as you admit to being. Instead, close the pie hole once.
If you have been attacked, especially to the point of the attack having drawn blood, and you have a gun, pulling the gun is actually a good idea. I only part company with Paul on this as to whether you then shoot. That depends on the follow-on circumstance, as I see it. The gun can either be a deterrent to convince the assailant to not continue attacking you, or you shoot if it’s obvious your attacker intends to continue harming you. The fact that you now have an advantage over your assailnt because you are armed and he isn’t is not part of some bizarre Marquis of Queensbery rules. It’s not “unfair” to shoot an “unarmed” man if he contiinues to try to do you physical harm.
Whether Zimmerman was actually attacked by Martin remains to be seen.
Pull the gun and fire the gun — yes, they are different actions, you’re right. But ask yourself, would a policeman do that, pull the gun? NO. Maybe he’d pull out the pepper spray, maybe a baton. But even more likely, a policeman would not even put himself in a position that a subject could get in the first punch.
No, this Zimmerman guy made a series of bad judgements. A lot of us do that, of course, the cascade of errors, each adding to the complexity of the jam you are in. However, in the case of Zimmerman, it is a cascade of errors that lead to the death of a high school kid.
I think it is clear the he should have been held, at least for that night. It looks like the cops and prosecutors made a set of decisions that are now being overridden by the governor and bypassed by the feds. The police chief has placed himself on temporary leave; the governor replaced the local prosecutor with another one from the Jacksonville area.
We’ll see how it goes. There was a huge crowd at the rally last night; unfortunately, that goombah from New York, Al Sharpton, showed up. Some of the local speakers were quite good. It was all over the local television channels during for over an hour. Very interesting video.
Good points. My remarks that you replied to have to be put into context. I was talking about once the confrontation became physical a generic person who has a gun has the option to defend themselves against an “unarmed” man who is punching and kicking him with his “non-weapon” fists and feet. I wasn’t defending Zimmerman’s possible actions that seem to have precipitated the confrontation.
I agree that Zimmerman appears to have made a series of errors and was not equipped by experience, aptitude or position of authority to precipitate this confrontation.
When you have a gun, your NUMBER ONE priority is to AVOID ANY POSSIBLE confrontations.
The other guy most likely doesnt know you’re armed…so he’ll sucker punch you, tackle you, kick you and grapple with you if he thinks he can take you in a fight…now your gun is a LIABILITY….
You have to worry about it being taken FROM you if you keep the fight “conventional”, and you have to worry about him “fighting harder for his life” if you draw it, particularly so when he DOESNT HAVE A CLUE YOU ARE SOME KIND OF “WATCHMAN” AND NOT JUST A CRIMINAL.
Armed citizens need to AVOID CONFRONTATIONS NOT SEEK THEM OUT.
Priority. Number. One.
Fail that, and EXPECT the rest of the consequences for the “escalation” to fall on YOU.
The initial report claims that Martin had left his father’s home during a half time in order to go to a 7-11 for some Skittles. If this is the case, then we need to know where the nearest 7-11 was to Martin’s father’s home, and if, as one person said in a reponse to VerBruggen’s article was that Martin was 2 1/2 miles from his father’s home, the question presents itself; what was Martin doing in a gated community, so far from his father’s home, that has no 7-11?
Of course, Al Sharpton will make an appearance in Florida. He thrives on the deaths of blacks. It’s how he makes his money. But here are two incidents that didn’t deserve Sharpton’s attention:
“ov. 3, 2011 – KFox14
Soccorro, Texas – Socorro police and the FBI are looking for four men who police say attacked and raped an elderly man wh9o was out on his early morning walk.”
It seems this 70 year old resident of Soccorro was taking his early morning walk (6:00 a.am.) when four black men between the age of 20-30 demanded the man give them money. When the man said he didn’t have any, they threw him into a van and each one raped him as they shouted racial slurs at this senior. The victim is Hispanic.
Another story we will not see Sharpton “investigate” or “agitate”:
Nov. 23, 2011 Fox4 News:
“Dallas police have arrested tow teens between the ages of 12 and 14 years old for the murder of a man who was dragged by a DART train. But they are still looking for several more.”
19 year old Octavious Lanier was on his way to an appointment with a medical counselor to help treat his Type 1 Diabetes. He was on the train when a gang of black teens between the ages of 12 and 14 tried to rob him of his iPod. When he refused to give it to them, the teens followed him off the train, only to push him off the platform where his leg got stuck between the platform and the train. When the train started moving, he was drug to his death.
So when Al Sharpton tries, once again, to line his pockets off the deaths of black people, someone needs to ask him where he is when it is black punks doing the killing?
“Much has been made of the claim the Zimmerman “pursued” Martin against the advice of the police dispatcher. On the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call, the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following the suspect.”
Suspect, my ass.
According to the news reports, no crime had been committed or reported, no warrants had been issued, and the kid wasn’t suspected of anything except walking down the street. As a matter of fact, according to what I’ve read, Trayvon Martin has never been in any trouble in his entire life, much less the kind of trouble that justifies shooting him.
So, spare me the “suspect” crap.
George Zimmerman isn’t a suspect yet either, but he ought to be a suspect in the murder of Trayvon Martin, IMO, and he just might be after all the investigations are finished. There’s a grand jury looking at it, and the state of Florida and the F.B.I. are also investigating, so eventually I imagine we’ll find out if there’s anything to my opinion, or not.
And, this is the worst article I’ve ever read on PJMedia. A disgrace.
Actually, we already know there’s nothing to your opinion. There are insufficient facts available to the public to make a determination of murder. Anyone who makes such a determination is jumping to conclusions and acting on emotion, not reason. There may have in fact been a murder, but that simply makes you the proverbial broken clock.
@zane, re: “The initial report claims that Martin had left his father’s home during a half time in order to go to a 7-11 for some Skittles. If this is the case, then we need to know where the nearest 7-11 was to Martin’s father’s home, and if, as one person said in a reponse to VerBruggen’s article was that Martin was 2 1/2 miles from his father’s home, the question presents itself; what was Martin doing in a gated community, so far from his father’s home, that has no 7-11?”
What does it matter?! The dead child isn’t on trial. This is what teenagers do, and have always done: they eat junk food, they walk far distances, they wander around to think or to talk on their cell phones. There is no martial law, no curfew. Imagine your boy leaving the house under similar circumstances, then never coming home.
“That’s what teenagers do”? Not all. “Some”, yes. “Some” also burglarize cars and rob people. Claiming he is innocent is the same as saying Zimmerman is guilty.
We just don’t know at this point.
The punishment for burglary or robbery isn’t execution last I heard…..
Ah, Sharpton’s involved. I won’t trust a thing I hear about this now. I grew up near the Tawanna Brawley incident. He destroyed that attorney’s life. He is such a scumbag he taints anything he’s involved in.
Or at the least I know the lede for this story from now on from the papers.
“a black 17-year-old boy, was shot and killed by ….a 28-year-old white man”
GUILTY!!!
shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old white man.
He is not a “white man”. Since the only reason this story has any legs is the contention that “a white man gunned down an unarmed black kid”, this claim needs to have a stake driven through its heart ASAP. Zimmerman is a “Hispanic”, a mestizo, an aboriginal American. He is not “white”.
An eyewitness corroborated Zimmerman’s account of things, as did physical evidence.
http://tinyurl.com/7y38zx5
1) The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
2) The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
3) Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
4) Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin’s father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.
A lot of people in the media have a peculiar psychological need to believe stories about white men attacking poor innocent blacks (the Duke/Crystal Magnum case comes to mind) but in real life such incidents are fantastically rare. And this is not one.
Okay, let’s invert the scenario:
You, proper, upstanding, law-abiding, gun owning, conservative citizen, are walking down the street in the neighborhood of a family friend.
Someone begins to follow you in a vehicle. You obviously have no idea who this person is or why they are following you, but it is dark, raining, and they are following you.
You start heading down side streets where the person cannot follow in his vehicle, and they get out and start running after you on foot. You also see them using a cell phone to contact some unknown person.
Unable to continue fleeing you turn and prepare to defend yourself.
Unfortunately he gets the upper hand, and you are now desperately trying to fight him off. Worse, you realize he has gun.
Struggling, you manage to pull yours and shoot him as he is on top of you.
When the police show up they tell you he was part of the neighborhood watch and had reported you as being suspicious for walking around in the rain. They then arrest you for murder.
But at least you know that if you ever get out of prison you will be able to track down and shoot anyone you don’t recognize in your neighborhood if they try and fight back when you are pursuing them.
Unable to continue fleeing you turn and prepare to defend yourself.
Unfortunately he gets the upper hand, and you are now desperately trying to fight him off. Worse, you realize he has gun.
That is where your description breaks down and veers off into fanciful speculation. What exactly happens in between “you turn and prepare to defend yourself” and “he gets the upper hand and you are now desperately trying to fight him off”. At some stage here, somebody has initiated physical contact with somebody else. Who was it?
In spite of Sam’s claims, there else no evidence that at any time after physical contact began, Zimmerman had the upper hand and Martin was “desperately trying to fight him off”. In fact the opposite seems to have been the case – Zimmerman was on the ground being assaulted by Martin and only then fired his weapon.
I say “seems” because all we have are news reports.
No speculation is required.
Any individual has a right to walk on the streets without being pursued and challenged by random passersby.
At that point the burden passes to the person who was doing the stalking to demonstrate their good intentions and proper behavior in a confrontation they provoked.
Actually, that’s not true. The shooting took place in a gated community, i.e. on private property, therefore not “any individual” has the right to be there, on the sidewalk or otherwise. Only residents and their guests have that right. Which means, unlike a public sidewalk, there ARE people who don’t “have a right to be there.”
To Biker Dad Below:
I live in a gated community. Its Private Property.
Only me, my neighbors, AND OUR GUESTS are permitted.
My neighbors do not know who I’ve invited to visit.
Nor do I know who they’ve invited to visit.
No person walking down the street can therefore be “suspicious”
Or conversely, EVERY person walking down the street can be “suspicious”
A responsible person who is ARMED would have exactly these contradictory thoughts in mind, and thus not ESCALATE a situation by following someone “suspicious” on foot
I see nothing wrong with Trayvon knocking him to the ground and trying to kick the @#$% out of Zimmerman if he felt that Zimmerman was stalking him. I’m a conservative white southerner with a family and would do the exact same thing if someone stalked me in public at night.
Got news for you, Steve. When you think someone is stalking you with possibly nefarious purposes, you have a moral right to strike first. Not all self-defense is reactive.
So you’d be OK with a young woman shooting you because the two of you were headed in the same direction on a dark street and she thought you were stalking her?
Following someone is not threatening. Assaulting someone is threatening. Brandishing a weapon is threatening. Chasing after someone is NOT. As law abiding citizens we do not have the luxury of initiating violence. If you want to shoot first be prepared to spend a lot of time in prison.
You mean the way Zimmerman shot first?
Oh wait, you want to completely exonerate him.
I guess sometimes you can shoot first and not expect to spend time in prison, huh?
Well aren’t you a special little snowflake. Look, I’ll try to spell this out for you since it’s obvious you suffer from severe cognitive disabilities.
I’m not looking to exonerate Zimmerman, I’m simply pointing out that the evidence available to the public does not support any criminal charges against him and that those calling for his arrest are exhibiting the same irrational bloodlust that characterized lynch mobs 100 years ago.
First to shoot does not mean the first to use violence. Whoever resorts to violence first is the guilty party, and if they end up dead I won’t shed any tears. That said, following someone, even running after them, is NOT violent.
Aside from the fact that it would be irritating (and irritating isn’t a sufficient cause for violence, a fact I attribute a large portion of your longevity to), I wouldn’t have a problem being challenged on the street. As I said in another thread, it’s a free country. You’re free to ask me what I’m doing on your street and I’m free to tell you to pound sand. What neither of us is free to do it take a swing at the other. Whoever does it first is the guilty party and needs to be punished.
And first to use violence does not mean “reasonably feared for one’s life.” If Zimmerman was jumped by a 100lb 5’0 woman unarmed woman, would you claim he had reason to fear for his life and shoot her? Because that’s basically what he faced when you figure his opponent was a 6’3, 140lb black kid. At that height and with such low weight, the teen was a beanpole.
First to use violence does not mean anyone is in fear for their life. It does make that person morally responsible for the outcome of that violence.
If I get jumped by a 5’0″, 100 lb woman I’m not going to be in fear of my life. If, after I throw her off me, she comes at me with a knife I am going to shoot her. That’s self-defense.
If I jump someone, they get away, come at me with a knife and I shoot them, that’s murder.
And just to refute your reflexive idiocy, Zimmerman didn’t initiate violence by following Martin. He has no moral responsibility as a result of that choice.
And you would be okay with random people stopping you on the street once you are more than say 1 mile from your place of residence, and demanding you identify yourself and your purpose without anything to positively prove their identity or reason for being in the neighborhood?
When you think someone is stalking you with possibly nefarious purposes, you have a moral right to strike first.
You do not have a moral right to strike somebody because you think they have possibly nefarious purposes. That applies to Martin, Zimmerman, and everybody else.
More importantly in the context of this thread, you do not have a legal right to do so. Whoever “struck first” – and that is undetermined at this time – was in the wrong. This also applies to Martin, Zimmerman, and everybody else.
The kid was innocent of any crime, he was not armed, had no record and was minding his own business when he was shot and killed by a man who admitted to having followed him.
Trayvon’s body lay unidentified in he morgue EVEN THOUGH HIS PARENTS HAD FRANTICALLY AND REPEATEDLY CALLED THE POLICE TO HELP FIND THEIR MISSING SON. They had a body matching the description of a missing person, and did not make the connection. Trayvon had a cell phone with him, and a simple search of the phone number would have identified him.
Zimmerman’s weapon was not collected, he was not questioned or tested for drugs and alcohol, all standard procedures for ANY shooting, justified or otherwise. Even a police officer involved in a shooting does not walk away from the scene without being relieved of the weapon, and followed up by a thorough review.
Regardless of the guilt or innocence of Mr. Zimmerman, the evidence is clear that the police work in his instance could not have been worse if it had been deliberately botched. It is difficult to ascribe this degree of incompetence and inattention to the basics of the job to anything except racism, but if someone wants to make the case that moronic Keystone Kops are all Floridians should expect, go ahead.
.. was minding his own business when he was shot and killed
Eyewitness reports indicate that he was on top of Zimmerman (the Hispanic guy) punching him in the head when Zimmerman shot and killed him.
Martin was on top of Zimmerman because Zimmerman had been pursuing Martin on a rainy night.
Had Zimmerman not pursued Martin he would never have been close enough for Martin to be on top of him.
Martin was on top of Zimmerman because Zimmerman had been pursuing Martin on a rainy night.
Assuming facts not in evidence. Even if true, you have no legal right to physically attack a person for “pursuing” (that is, following you), day or night, rain or shine. You just don’t.
Yep. Dear sweet lovable Travon should have called the police if he felt threatened by a local homeowner/renter watching him.
Assaulting the local, when you are a stranger to that neighborhood, got him kilt… dead as a posem’ on the highway during rush hour.
Zimmerman was really stupid, but being stupid is not a criminal act.
Although, it might mean being convicted of something a bit more serious than otherwise, if charged and found guilty. We just don’t know yet.
Zimmerman was really stupid, but being stupid is not a criminal act.
Stalking and killing an unarmed person is a criminal act or used to be.
Remind me who passed the law that makes shooting innocent people no longer a crime? Is that why everyone is pretending that this is a tragedy instead of a crime?
If it was the Democrats who decriminalized killing innocents then there might be some outrage here against the law and the killer instead of the actual outrage, you know the outrage against the DOJ and against those darn blacks who think their sons should be safe from stalkers.
“Stalking”? I don’t think you can make a case. “Tailing” is not “Stalking”.
No, killing an unarmed person is not illegal in it’s self. Depending on the circumstances, using lethal force to stop an attacker who is not armed is entirely legal. As an example, if Martin really did ambush Zimmerman and took him down.
It is sometimes interesting to read the law(s) that are applicable to a situation. The self defense statutes in Florida (Chapter 776 of the Florida Statues) give definitions that deal with the use of deadly force in a self defense situation. Also the Florida statute basically says that a person can not be prosecuted if there is a question of lawful self defense unless:
“A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.”
Right now that is where this matter stands. An investigation is being undertaken, the allegations will be presented to a Grand Jury to make a finding if they feel there is “probable cause” that the use of force used was not lawful.
From news accounts there is no way for the vast majority of us to have a clear idea of the facts. Given the evidence will consist of the physical evidence (which I feel very few people not actually involved in the investigation know), the statement of Mr. Zimmerman, the information of what seems to have been an ongoing phone call involving Mr. Martin, right now the job of the prosecutor and the Grand Jury will be to try to sort through the known facts and evaluate the known facts along with the law.
Florida law says the State can not initiate prosecution (including arrest) until the investigation is conducted.
That Zimmerman was not arrested for walking around armed in the middle of the night strongly suggests that the armed neighborhood patrolman had police tolerance if not approval. (Yes, I know that the police can answer that question, but notice how few facts are available.) I have to wonder what kind of neighborhood is it where you have armed neighborhood watchers?? It would help to calm the public outcry for a pre-judgement of Zimmerman if the media laid out what facts are presently known. It would not ease the pain and anguish of the dead man’s family nor would their burning desire for justice be extinguished, but maybe it would reduce the likelihood of a race riot if Zimmerman isn’t arrested, convicted, sentenced to death and executed, preferably before this Saturday. The media, predictably, is selling copies of their papers or increasing their Nielsen ratings by stirring up the usual racial prejudice of the White Devil just waiting to kill the first black young man he sees. This is not a responsible attitude. But then, what can we expect from the media? More facts, please, and less agitation.
Where the heck are you from?
I regularly walk around in the middle of the night and armed. More against the local wildlife to be sure, but armed non-the-less.
Are you suggesting I should be arrested for that?
It isn’t a crime in most of the US.
“I have to wonder what kind of neighborhood is it where you have armed neighborhood watchers”
Hopefully every neighborhood. And in urban areas it would be very stupid not to be armed. Especially high crime areas.
In which case it would also be stupid not to assume someone rushing after you did not have nefarious intent.
Any proof Dear lovable Travon was “being rushed at”?
Here is what type of neighborhood it was and maybe a reason why Zimmerman was suspicious and did not pay attention to the dispatcher.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html
From pg 2 of the above:
police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death. In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012.
Again, no need to be suspicious. So, to all of you who say Murder what if the following happened:
Z confronts T. T gets insulted by Z and when Z turns his back, T hit him in the back of the head, dropping Z and allowing T to get on top of Z and while on his back Z shot T in self-defense.
This has got to be the weirdest case ever. It has some people posting here seeming to stick up for a killer (note, I didn’t say murderer…yet), why? Because the victim was black? Look inside yourself and ask if you’d be begging for consideration and presumption of innocence for the shooter if it was a black man who shot a white girl.
The calls I hear are not for a declaration of “guilty” rather for an adequate investigation into the case. Casting aspersions on the victim – and he is unequivocally the victim – can only be explained by bigotry.
This is a tragic and nauseating case that will force a lot of people to reconsider how they view crime and race in this country.
he is unequivocally the victim
That is not at all “unequivocally” obvious at this stage.
The calls I hear are not for a declaration of “guilty” rather for an adequate investigation into the case.
And yet you think that you already know “unequivocally” who is the “victim” here, and by extension who is the victimizer.
In all likelihood both men made some poor decisions here.
You contradict yourself. We are bigots because we do not say Zimmerman is a murderer?
No… I said that casting aspersions on the victim was bigotry. And I didn’t say that the shooter is a murderer. And @SteveM, one of these people had a gun and one of these people is dead.
Try and answer the question posed: would you be responding differently if the shooter was a black man and the victim (I mean “dead person” who probably made their own “poor decisions”) had been a white girl?
Please, we need to look inside ourselves and examine how we think about crime and race in our country.
we need to look inside ourselves and examine how we think about crime and race in our country.
Why? What is currently wrong with “how we think about crime and race in our country”? I sense that this is your real hangup and you are only interested in this case to the extent that it helps you make whatever argument you have about that larger matter.
one of these people had a gun and one of these people is dead
That’s true, obviously, but I don’t see the relevance of these uncontested facts.
I said that casting aspersions on the victim was bigotry.
It is not at all obvious at this stage that Martin was “the victim” here. But even assuming he was, why is your casting aspersions on Zimmerman not bigotry? Because you are a liberal and therefore not capable of bigotry?
You have prejudged Zimmerman as guilty, as your refering to Martin as the “victim” demonstrates. You are a bigot for assuming an Hispanic is guilty without further evidence.
Dunphy: You “conveniently” forgot to mention that when Zimmerman called the Police, he was told *** NOT *** to follow Martin.
He chose to ignore this advice and stalked Martin.
He was the only one armed in this encounter.
Certainly a jury should ultimately decide this case. But unless an investigation demonstrates that Martin did indeed have a weapon, which does not appear likely, I can’t see how this could in any way legitimately NOT result in a charge.
You conveniently overlooked the 7th and 8th paragraphs of the piece.
Actually there are three horrible travesties involved in this case:
(1). A man killed a young teenager and he will have to live with that awful fact for the rest of his life.
(2). Young Trayvon Martin lost his life.
(3). Al Sharpton has arrived on the scene.
It’s being Demagogued to death already. All of the facts aren’t even known, but weepy Lefties are already shouting “Hang the Bastard!” from the rooftops. “Race!” “Racism!” “Bigots!”
I pray for a plague that selectively kills all former-1960s radicals and all of their camp followers.
Dear Lord,
So, to show how the media makes things up or uses suppasition … you put in three paragraphs where you infer what happened?
Okay, I call BS.
The only Facts we actually have are:
9-1-1 recordings.
The “witnesses” that said they saw Zimmerman later recounted saying the police told them to say Zimmerman was on the ground.
Number two there is important because it invalidates the witness no matter what. They are a bad witness and will not be used in court (No way I would …)
The eye witness. (in Law School they once told me it is far better to only have one version of the story … so make certain the other story never gets told… looks like someone learned this lesson in their studies at UCF for criminal justice)
The Physical Evidence.
This part none of us know. Where is the blood spatter, at what range was the shot fired, where is the bullet in relation to the story, do the wounds to the head appear self inflicted, is there any residue of gunpowder on the victem in any manner, was the body moved, where are the footprints leading to and from (it was raining in Florida … Bremuda grass will show a path if followed quickly enough by trained police), are there any additional injuries to the potential perp, is there any skin or any transfer under the nails of the vic that indicate a struggle (this is very important, seldom will a instigator have this … but a vic will as they are trying to defend), same test for the potential perp.
Why did the shooter leave his vehicle
… so many questions that I would love to have a chance to look in to.
At the end of the day, none of us know and we live in America, where outside of the court of public opinion everyone is given the right to due process.
My personal opinion being a NY Lawyer … is that nobody has the right to shoot anyone else for any reason. But I defend people who don’t see it that way all the time. This guy is no different, just a guy with a gun who (by his own admission) shot someone. The guy is innocent until proven guilty of doing so under reasons that would constitute murder. In my state he would already be guilty of manslaughter at the least (he admitted to killing and we have no rediculous wild west go out and shoot each other law)
“My personal opinion being a NY Lawyer … is that nobody has the right to shoot anyone else for any reason.”
Then you are definitely part of the problem. Three ways… Being a NY denizen, a lawyer and an idiot(your opinion marks you as such).
Is your hangup that the variety of lethal force used was a firearm? Would it be okay to use a knife?
I have a right to protect my life. No one has a right to attack me and jeapordize my life. I have a right to stop the attack using whatever means is at hand. If that’s a firearm, tough tootsie rolls, the attacker is going to have a bullet hole in him.
Phillep,
You bring up an interesting issue. Is it okay to take a life by any means in order to protect ones self. (I am by the way not liberal, nor am I yiddish, nor do I live in the city … NY is a huge State with very diverse populations))
Yes, a person does have the right to protection. However, use of deadly force, be it a knife, a gun, a razor, a hammer, a blunt object is only viable if first, you have no other option at all, and second if you in no way are an agressor.
My personal (outside of the law) belief is that no person has the right to take another person’s life. Be that through shooting in this case, or by the death penalty *since when does killing a person prove killing is wrong*, abortion … to me any non natural end to a life at the will of another is reprehensable.
But being a defense attorney, I do have to defend people who do these things all the time. At the end of the day, my point is none of us know anything, it is all pure speculation.
In the non wild west admitting to killing someone is Manslaughter. Was it justifiable? Perhaps under some horrible laws in a state that allows Casey Anthony to walk free it is … but hey this is a state that can’t get an election right, or convict a baby killer with bulletproof evidence. So, I guess anything goes down there
Maybe you evah so enlightened Nooooo Yawkahs should secede and leave all us bitter clingers to our own devices because we damned wouldn’t miss your state in the remaining union. Perhaps you could take Mexifornia with you and maybe Illinois and MA too.
Art,
Seriously,
My fellow country man, you have no clue what most of New York is like.
I challenge you to find out if most of New York speaks with a rediculous charactitured Brooklyn Accent.
Certainly our elections are decided by a very large city that has a very large population … but NYC is not NY.
However, that is the crux of the issue. As Americans we are always so quick to use such stereotypes of our fellow Americans.
For example:
All people from Kentucky are shoeless and married to thier sister.
All Californians are flighty liberals
All New Yorkers are uppity jew liberals
All Georgians are sweet southerners who would give you the shirt of their back
All Latino’s are illegal immigrants
All Black men are dangerous perpetrators of crime
None of those are true.
You are better than stereotypical judgements because I agree with due process and law.
I bet I agree with you on abortion, and gun control. I believe neither of them have a place in America.
I bet I voted for the same person you did in the last election.
Basically sir, because I feel killing is bad my state needs to succeed from the nation?
I think that is a bit rash … and off topic. It is mal-informed and shows why you would support sanctioned murder.
Sir, my state doesn’t need to go anywhere, I am quite certain we are not whom you think. However, if you are all for sanctioned murder I say you sir should go “stand your ground” in Afghanistan and fight for your right to have a say.
I fought for my right to have a say in Iraq.
You have just about every BS lefty meme in there. You know, we toothless troglodytes actually get around a bit; they have these airplanes and shit that take us to the places our betters inhabit; you guys really ought to insist on visas or something. I’ve been to your cesspool state lots of times; been propositioned by lots of junkie whores with abscesses on their arms and God knows where else as I walked your streets of gold.
I ain’t buying the “reasonable” crap; you’re just another mind-numbed lefty useful idiot who’s been paying attention to the talking points. We have nothing in common. The conflict is just as irrepressible as it was a century and a half ago, and just for the record, we don’t like people like you.
“we have no rediculous wild west go out and shoot each other law”
But strangely enough, you have a much higher murder rate than places that do.
Go figure, Mr. New York Lawyer
No,
We have one very large city … the largest in America in fact.
Filled with inner city violence.
And we do not in any way lead the murder charts.
From Forbes ” And America’s biggest metro, New York City, is also one of its safest; with a murder rate of 7.3 per 100,000 people, it comes in at No. 50 on a list of the 72 American cities with a population over 250,000.”
Again, I would like to point out that a stereotype … that NYC is dangerous (it can be if you are in the wrong neighborhoods I am sure … but I haven’t been to the city in 10 years … no reason to go … I will take my backwoods Finger Lakes Region any day over that nonsense) Is the driving factor in your comment.
Just like the stereotype that a young black man is automatically suspicious, or dangerous. Or that killing another person is somehow okay … because well he hit me after I stalked him.
Also … I am the kind of Lawyer you want … I am not a civil lawyer … I probobly make less than you defending people like Zimmerman. Not every lawyer is sueing McDonalds because some jerk ate themselves into being pudgy … another stereotype.
You see how this works out … the world is full of stereotypes.
Just like the one about Trayvon being dangerous because he was black.
Nobody deserves to die at the hands of another, end of story.
I am curious as to how old Trevonn is in the photo? In the news story they state that he was 17 a the time of the shooting.
Just Curious.
I believe the photo came from the same studio that supplies the Omar Ahmed Khadr pix. The one that magically turns a 17 yr old, 6 foot 2 inch, football-playing man into a 12-yr old boy.
That aside, Mr. Dunphy is right. Given the inflammatory nature of the situation, everyone should just cool it until ALL the evidence is in.
What people SHOULD do is change the law so that neighborhood watch can’t cruise the street with guns and confront and shoot random people who are doing nothing wrong.
If you want your neighborhood watched, fine, but leave the confronting and shooting to the police who are trained.
How about this, if you see a kid who isn’t obviously breaking any laws, how about you don’t take a gun and go try to intimidate him? How about if “neighborhood watch” doesn’t mean roughing kids up, and being judge, jury and executioner?
I see you no longer call the Black man ‘Boy”. Guess you are learning to disguise your racism.
However you continue with unsupported tale. A meme that the known facts do not bear out.
You’ve already admitted to being a race realist who thinks that all black men should be harassed for being a danger.
Calling me a racist is either a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters (bingo!) or projection. It’s a silly failure in either case.
This whole thing brings to mind (for me anyway) the old Spiderman quote: “With great power comes great responsibility.” Whether Zimmerman acted within the letter of the law is unclear at this point, but if I were he, I’d have a hard time sleeping in the aftermath of this. Regardless of what he *thought* at the time, the Martin boy is generally agreed by everyone to not have been involved in criminal activity of any sort. He was apparently unarmed, and whether Zimmerman or he provoked the confrontation, Zimmerman was (at least originally) in an automobile, and armed with a pistol. At some point, he had a choice and he chose poorly, and the result was the young man wound up dead. He could have called the cops, and followed the kid. If the kid slipped into an alley or something, it seems reasonable for a citizen to wait for the cops, telling them which alley the kid went into when they arrive. Getting out of the car in the middle of the night while it’s raining in order to pursue someone you believe (even erroneously) to be a criminal would be foolhardy, wouldn’t it? Perhaps Mr. Dunphy can help here, but that sounds like a situation where even a trained police officer would want backup, if at all possible, before proceeding.
Whether Zimmerman’s conduct rose to the level of criminal is not something I am qualified to judge. For one thing, if I understand it correctly, manslaughter, in some states, just requires you to do something terminally *stupid* that results in the death of another; in other states, the act has to be *criminal* also. I’m not sure which of these Florida is (or even if my interpretation is correct). I am sure, however, that Zimmerman is an idiot, and his actions got this young man killed, regardless of his intentions or motives.
“Regardless of what he *thought* at the time, the Martin boy is generally agreed by everyone to not have been involved in criminal activity of any sort.”
Uh, no. “Generally agreed” is no standard. Particularly lacking the facts.
However, everyone has the right to observe what goes on in their neighborhood and beyond. They have a right to protect such. They have a right to be armed. They have a right to approach anyone and ask who they are and why there. Now said person can tell them to f-off, but that person cannot attack them for asking or observing… which includes following to keep visual contact.
Now if the person who has every right to be armed and every right to observe and even approach is attacked, that person has the right to defend himself with deadly force if need be.
Obviously, Dear lovable Travon was unknown in that area or A property owner/renter defending that area would have known him. That dear lovable Travon attacked, in an unreasonable manner, a person who lives in that neighborhood, tells me you will have to prove Mr Zimmerman was unreasonable in his actions.
So far , that proof is lacking.
Really?
So you know, by their clothes, in the rain, everyone living within what, one mile of your home? Two miles? However many square miles this gated community is?
And every other homeowner in that radius has an absolute right to pursue and challenge anyone coming to visit you whenever they feel like it?
>>“Regardless of what he *thought* at the time, the Martin boy is generally agreed by everyone to not have been involved in criminal activity of any sort.”
Uh, no. “Generally agreed” is no standard. Particularly lacking the facts.
However, everyone has the right to observe what goes on in their neighborhood and beyond. They have a right to protect such. They have a right to be armed. They have a right to approach anyone and ask who they are and why there. Now said person can tell them to f-off, but that person cannot attack them for asking or observing… which includes following to keep visual contact.
Now if the person who has every right to be armed and every right to observe and even approach is attacked, that person has the right to defend himself with deadly force if need be.
Obviously, Dear lovable Travon was unknown in that area or A property owner/renter defending that area would have known him. That dear lovable Travon attacked, in an unreasonable manner, a person who lives in that neighborhood, tells me you will have to prove Mr Zimmerman was unreasonable in his actions.
So far , that proof is lacking.<<
The above has got to be one of the more obnoxious posts I've come across, on Pajamas or anywhere else. If I get what this poster was saying, shooting people in your neighborhood, if they're strangers, is alright, or at least probably so. In this instance, it's now reported that Travon (dear and lovable, maybe, but just a high school kid) was visiting his dad's girlfriend, and coming back from a convenience store with some snacks he'd purchased (which were on him when the cops got there). Zimmerman appears to have become suspicious of him because of the hoodie and the fact that there had been recent burglaries in the area.
OK, so what sort of proof is the poster looking for? Are we to just abandon all logic and believe what the guy with the gun says, regardless of everything else? Zimmerman was in a car, had a gun, and had seen *nothing* that would even really imply that the kid was anything other than someone walking down the street, and he chose to confront him.
If you're walking down the street in some strange neighborhood, do you grant the residents to accost you, armed, and demand that you explain yourself? If you do, you're an idiot, and you have no understanding of the Constitution.
The fact of the matter is that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, even if Travon reacted poorly in some fashion, attacked him or something. When you have a gun, and confront someone over something, you should be *certain* that something illegal is occurring; otherwise, you're just a thug with a gun, and things like this can happen.
As I said originally, I'm not qualified to judge whether Zimmerman is legally guilty of anything. Morally he's an idiot, and regardless of what he did or didn't do, his actions led to this young man's death.
Oh, and when I say that Travon's "generally agreed" to have been a good kid, and you respond that that's no standard, all I can say is that if consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, semantics is the theme song. "Generally agreed" in this context means that none of the reports I've read have had anything bad to say about the kid. He was suspended from school for truancy. If they'd shot kids over that 30 years ago I'd never have made it out of high school, and I daresay a lot of others here wouldn't be around either. And you referring to the kid as "dear lovable Travon" so sarcastically just makes you look like an insensitive ass. He had parents, a family, and they're grieving. Try not to act like the monster many of these people suspect the white community generally consists of.
but that sounds like a situation where even a trained police officer would want backup, if at all possible, before proceeding
That is an excellent point. Always call for backup. A civilian should always want cops on the way even if he is armed. When I went handgun shopping, the store owner reminded me that nowadays a civilian is not really fully armed unless he has his/her cellphone in the other hand, with a 911 dispatcher on the line. Now it sounds like Zimmerman did just that at first, but may have taken matters into his own hands, and I mean even before the actual confrontation. He shouldn’t have followed Martin as aggressively as he apparently did. It seems to me the most he should have done was try to keep track of Martin’s movements while waiting for police to arrive, and to keep talking to the dispatcher to provide him/her with a constant stream of info.
Want backup? Because he saw an unarmed boy walking down the street carrying skittles and tea and talking with his girlfriend on the phone?
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Cool yoour jets dude. “Backup” may not be the most appropriate term in this context because people associate it with police work. What “Clone” is saying is this is a matter best handled by the police, hence the use of the term “backup.” Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch guy, so he thought he was doing the right thing by tracking/following Martin. Problem appears to be that he overstepped his bounds by confronting Martin. He should have stood off (assuming we know enough of what actually happened), and let the police “close the deal.” Oh wait, should I not used more terminology that might confuse you?
What we may end up finding out is (and this is conjecture on my part) that Martin was pissed off that Zimmerman was following him, considered it harrassment, and turned on Zimmerman and started punching him. One man’s blunder led to the other’s big mistake. All very stupid and tragic.
I think what bothers most of us observing this case from blogs like this is that this has been orchestrated into a national issue having to do with civil rights and racial animosity. Race hustlers would have us believe that modern America is still 1950′s Alabama, and that white America has not changed at all. By and large, white America is fed up with these kinds of orchestrations and assumptions.
All this is further compounded by the fact that Zimmerman is not an Anglo white, but is Latin American Hispanic through-and-through. I know Zimmermans from Ecuador who are thoroughly Andean (indigenous) in appearance. The same goes for O’Reillys and Walkers, or Fox (fairly common in Mexico) etc., Our “more enlightened betters” who weave these media narratives ignorantly assumed that because of Zimmerman’s name, he had to be an Anglo — you know, like Jimmy Smits “must” be an Anglo because of his name.
Sad case,no doubt,but does anyone remember the horrific,brutal knoxville murders m(2007) of the young white couple?Bet CNN didn’t event give it a mention.BTW, case will be retried because of judicial improprieties.
Seems to me that young man was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He should have known better than to go into that part of town…
Yeah, how DARE a black kid with no record live in a gated community and to think he could walk to the 7/Eleven like anyone else?
Methinks my remark cleared your head by about 10 feet.
I don’t know if Rider is right or wrong, but what he was saying was that the boy LIVED NEAR WHERE HE WAS SHOT.
He wasn’t in the wrong neighborhood, HE LIVED THERE.
“HE LIVED THERE.”
No he did not. If Dear lovable Travon had “lived” there. Mr Zimmerman would have recognized him and dear lovable Travon would not have attacked Mr Zimmerman.
As I said I didn’t know how right or wrong Rider was. No one has reported how far from home Trayvon was when he popped into a store for tea and candy.
Just because there are gates doesn’t mean that no black people live there or near there, nor is it certain that the out-of-control wanna-be-cop who liked to take a gun with him to intimidate teens who are doing nothing wrong would recognize every person who lived nearby.
“lovable”
Well he’s harder to love now that he’s a decomposing corpse.
Oh, you mean like the people who dared to trespass into minority neighborhoods and were beaten for their efforts? Neighborhoods they had every right to enter as if they lived there? Or are you suggesting that because you live in a particular neighborhood you have more right to be there? Is that what you’re saying?
Scott, you’re not making this thread look good.
The argument that neighborhoods are racial enclaves and if any white has been harmed for being in a non-white one, then it’s fair to shoot black teens in white neighborhoods is wrong and racist. It’s not how most of America works, and it shouldn’t be allowed.
We should have one law for everyone and the same rights for everyone.
You’re missing the point; it obviously went over your head as well. If I have to explain it to you I will. Of course it’s not fair to shoot black teens in white neighborhoods just as it’s not fair to attack whites in black neighborhoods, but when the latter happens it gets explained away by racist apologists (see MSM) as ‘wrong place, wrong time’, etc. Not pretty when it goes the other way, is it? Now do you get the point? If you don’t, you’re being intentionally obtuse and I can’t help you.
And I shouldn’t have to explain that this case is different because the police and possibly the law is making it legal to shoot the black teen.
They know who the killer is, they have incontrovertible evidence that he pursued and shot the teen. They have evidence that the boy wasn’t armed.
And yet they’ve refused to act.
There is no equivalent case where the police and politicians protect minorities who kill whites “in the wrong neighborhood”
The fact that the authorities protecting people who kill blacks is the way it USED to be not something new also adds fuel to the fire.
There is an issue here that’s important – if the government makes it legal to harass and kill innocent black kids, then we have a real problem.
And my point isn’t with police and politicians, it’s with the way this stuff gets reported by the media. Turn about is.a.bitch. NOW do you get it?
‘They know who the killer is, they have incontrovertible evidence that he pursued and shot the teen. They have evidence that the boy wasn’t armed.
And yet they’ve refused to act.’
They also apparently believed Martin attacked Zimmerman, who fired in self defense. I personally don’t believe they’ve let Zimmerman off the hook nor should they, but based upon the information they’ve received so far apparently they don’t think they have a case. Yet.
Reposting this because the swearing in the quoted text put the original into moderation… I wonder if the racial epithet in the quote did too, I’ll risk it.
“Trayvon Martin: Scant Evidence, Already a Verdict”
“Already a Verdict”? “Already a Verdict”?
And by that you don’t mean that a man who stalked an innocent, unarmed boy from a truck then on foot and then shot him in the head has not been investigated or charged with that innocent boy’s death, that he’s been cleared by the police and they won’t say why… you mean that some people have the audacity to see an unarmed boy, who was killed while doing such non-threatening things as carrying skittles, tea and talking with his girlfriend on the phone and they tend to think that his killer might have done something wrong.
So a man who is 100 lbs heaver than some wispy teen stalks him, calls 911 because, from his truck, he see a black boy is wearing a hoodie (in the rain) with his hand in his pocket, (we can assume now, on the packet of skittles he just bought)… and shoots him after muttering “f***ing coons” to 911, and most of the PJMedia regulars are saying that it’s unjust – unjust that anyone would object to the boy being dead for no reason, unjust that the federal Department of Justice even exists, unjust that black people who remember a day when these kinds of shootings were every week instead of once a year don’t like this or this law that give the police an excuse to allow these killings.
Is this what conservatism means now? That there’s no crime when an unarmed boy is stalked and killed?
I mean thank God Zimmerman is only a killer, if he was stalking boys to rape them instead of shooting them in the head someone here might object!
17 is no ” boy” what are you racist. Calling a 17 year old black man boy?
Sick. 17 is recruiting age for our military numb nuts.
Not even one part of my comment depends on him being a child.
I called him a boy because he was less than 18. And as i pointed out he was 100 lbs lighter than the armed man who claimed to be feel so threatened that he followed him in a truck, confronted him for doing nothing and shot him in the head.
You are so factually challenged. From what I have read. The Black man was shot in the “CHEST”( not head) after attacking the Local homeonwer/renter.
Yes the homeonwer was keeping him under watch. That does not allow someone out of area to attack someone who lives in that neighborhood in my book.
Face it Schulnik, you are both wrong on fact.. and a racist because YOU would not have a Black live amongst you. You are a liberal POS who says one thing then makes sure you live elsewhere.
You called the 17 year old Black man “Boy” because you are a racist.
Uhm no, just no.
I called him a boy because he was under 18, because it emphasizes his harmlessness. Because he WAS harmless and I feel for his parents and his girlfriend. I also feel for all the black people who now have to recreate the fear that used to exist in the south when black boys (ok, teens probably) were shot every week because they ran into a racist white person and shooting them was never punished.
Boys once again will have to be told “keep your voice down, don’t look a white man in the eyes, never demand your rights because racists WILL shoot you”
I’m reminded that a similar condition existed in Nazi Germany where it was not illegal to shoot Jews in the Ghetto.
Also I am not an anti-black racist but you knew that, you just liked misinterpreting the word “boy”.
I think it is the feeling I got when I had a black girlfriend that makes me so offended by racists.
I have also lived with blacks, in one house I was the only white person, there were 4 blacks living with me. Granted I saw some racism there. The three Kenyans got along with me well, the middle aged American black woman hated me for being white.
I have also worked for a company that was owned by a black family.
And I lived in poor neighborhoods too.
Don’t assume that just because I don’t feel like you do that I’m privileged. I was mugged by a black man once, but that wasn’t enough to make me feel that it’s ok to intimidate and black teens for no reason. Lol you’d be amazed how well dressed and respectable looking the black man who choked me and took my wallet was. His custom knit yuppy sweater and slacks probably cost more than any piece of clothing I own. Funny thing, I lived in a poor neighborhood, was on my own street and the well dressed man who mugged me told me I was in the wrong neighborhood.
Also I’m a “liberal POS” for thinking that roughing up strangers for being black and shooting them isn’t how “neighborhood watch” should work? Nice.
As for “in the head” – I took that from a comment in a thread. Sorry if it was wrong, but shot-in-the-chest is nearly as deadly .. the use of deadly force was the point.
“I called him a boy because he was under 18, because it emphasizes his harmlessness. Because he WAS harmless”
Unfortunately the facts do not s’port that warm fuzzy liberal nonsense. Blacks, according to the FBI/DOJ crime reports commit 40-50% of the murders in this country every year. I would s’spect that all other crime( yeah I know.. not white collar crime) follows suit.
That is 12% of the population as a whole subset. Now alomost all of that crime is by Black males…… 6% of population. Further it is Black males 12 – 35 years of age.
Harmless you say?
Obviously you are a POS liberal who does not live with the problem but believes as you do.
“Lol you’d be amazed how well dressed and respectable looking the black man who choked me and took my wallet was. His custom knit yuppy sweater and slacks probably cost more than any piece of clothing I own. Funny thing, I lived in a poor neighborhood, was on my own street and the well dressed man who mugged me told me I was in the wrong neighborhood.”
Fair enough Schulnik. I’ll buy that story.
Now here is mine. I have had bullets directed in my direction, several times. Most were understandable. Way down the river and some numbnuts shooting down range, farmers blasting a shotgun overhead late at night as I sought help after a car accident… meh.
The only time I ever had to use my pistol.. and only had to point it. Was just off Biscayne Boulevard in Miami.. the projects. I’d tell the whole story but s’fice it too say. It was a Dear lovable Travon.. looked just like the picts we are seeing a 12 year old.
I was White in the wrong area. With Oklahoma tags to boot.. heh.. he learned Okies carry.
Point being, those ARE the killers.
If the facts bear out that Travon was oh so lovable, it is a tragedy. A tragedy of Blacks own making with the violence they embrace. Racial violence too, the “knockout game” anyone.
BTW Schulnik … I still think you are a liberal POS…. cute though.
Unfortunately the facts do not s’port that warm fuzzy liberal nonsense. Blacks, according to the FBI/DOJ crime reports commit 40-50% of the murders in this country every year.
Excuse me, but Trayvon Martin wasn’t all BLACKS he was an individual, and there is NO evidence that HE was anything but harmless!
I think of the black people I’ve known, and I’ve known quite a few – all of them were harmless.
I’ve worked for and with a few, I’ve lived with a few, I’ve been close to one..
None of them were remotely dangerous people. And not all of them had particularly upper class or even middle class backgrounds. I wish you could understand how strongly I feel about this, FROM EXPERIENCE. If you knew the black people I’ve known, you would understand.
Sigh.
The idea that you can compare statistics and then claim that an individual is suspect based on his color IS racist. I know you won’t listen to me when I say this, but the way you are thinking is precisely racist!
It is not racist, it is realist.
Ah, yes statistics.
Well behind every one of those statistics was a Travon. When 3 or 4 % (black males of Travons age 12 – 35) commit 40 – 50 % of the murders.
I consider that worth caring when around that group. I s every one that in said group… no. But I am not willing to risk my life on such animals in the whole.
I consider that worth caring when around that group. I s every one that in said group… no. But I am not willing to risk my life on such animals in the whole.
You can understand why black people would be upset that someone like you who calls black men “animals” who should all be harassed at all times carried a gun, harassed blacks at random and shot any who didn’t like it.
Any setup that allows “neighborhood watch” or even the police to be run the way you think is oppressive and yes, racist.
You can call yourself a race realist if you like, but I sure as hell don’t want you patrolling my neighborhood with a gun, or any neighborhood.
Fair enough, I sure as hell do not want your kind anywhere around me.
17. PsychoDad
“a black 17-year-old boy, was shot and killed by ….a 28-year-old white man”
GUILTY!!!”
The N.Y. Times describes Zimmerman as, “White Hispanic.” I’m sure you’ll find that as interesting as I do ; ) And we all know that President Obama is commonly referred to in the mainstream media as, “Black White,” correct? What would the race-hustler do if Zimmerman is found out to be Hispanic? All interesting questions as i’m sure you’ll agree.
No it’s not interesting.
The word “Hispanic” means “comes from a background where his ancestors spoke Spanish”, it had no bearing on his race which maps to certain features that were considered important by a 19th century (and earlier) non-scientific theory that broke humanity up into distinct races.
I understand that many Americans think that white means “looks European, doesn’t have an accent and doesn’t look like any of those furriners to the south” ie it means “LIKE ME” and nothing else, but you know what? Look at Zimmerman’s picture, he’s lilly white! And “my grandpa spoke Spanish” is not a race!!! You know what else? Spaniards are white!
Your idea of race is ignorant. I’m sorry if that sounds insulting, but you’re simply wrong and there is no better way to put it.
Take another look, this time at a color photo. He is mostly Amerindian.
I had seen a color photo.
He looks very light skinned, chubby face though.
I just noticed that as I’m looking up articles on this I see the same picture of Zimmerman over and over, but I swear that the first article I saw had his face lightened and his 5 o’clock shadow photoshopped out.
I’ll grant I might have been fooled, not that it changes the questions of law or of race. It is certainly possible for Amerindian hispanics to hate blacks in precisely the same way that a white racist can.
Heh racism is so mentally contagious that I can name a Jewish Nazi or two who loves Hitler.
racism is so mentally contagious that I can name a Jewish Nazi or two who loves Hitler.
Is one of them named “Schulnik” by any chance?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Hilarious. I’m sure that you simultaneously think that those who believe in race are foolish bigots, and that anybody who attacks a black person on account of his skin color is racist.
But if what you meant was that the KKK or white nationalists or Nazis might not have liked Zimmerman, then you’re right. American racists tend to dislike anyone who came from a south of the border background, no matter how lilly white they are. But deciding the meaning of English words based on the beliefs of local racists rather than from the dictionary isn’t recommended.
You are right on one point. The racist in America today dislike anyone who is lily white… they hate anyone like Zimmerman too.
I’m sure YOU think that what you said was clear but I have no idea.
I get the “racists hate whites” whine but I don’t really know what you think you’re implying with “they hate guys like Zimmerman”
Surely don’t think that the same racists who hate whites also hate Hispanics. Maybe you think they hate guys who “protect their neighborhood” by taking guns with them to intimidate and shoot any black teen who, though doing nothing, seems uppity when approached with malicious intent?
There is absolutely no evidence that Mr Zimmerman had his gun out .. “drawn”(how else could one ‘intimidate”. The only evidence is that a local homeowner was within lawful bounds. Both with his carrying arms and his vigilance.
Of course you have no idea. Your kind never does.
Since an unarmed man is dead, it is absolutely certain that Zimmerman took his gun out and shot an unarmed man.
Yes we don’t know exactly when. But we do know:
1) he had no probably cause to pursue
2) civilized reason to confront him
3) he took a gun with him that he had no reason to think he’d need
4) and somehow he “needed” that gun
It’s easy to imagine how an out-of-control hostile man with a gun on “neighborhood watch” could stir up trouble and there are reports from Zimmerman’s neighbors that he was pretty hostile.
Schulnik Schulnik Schulnik .
Obviously he had a weapon and obviously he needed it. Violent crime was there. A prudent man always carries a weapon. It is our right to be able to defend ourselves.
Being armed is proper and smart… all the time. And he had probable cause. Unknown, particularly a unknown of a race which is known as the problem. And an age which is also the problem.
Once again, if it turns out to be a tragedy, instead of “Kudos” to Mr Zimmerman. The blame is squarely on the NAACP types who march about this instead of addressing how violent the blacks are year after year.
And he had probable cause. Unknown, particularly a unknown of a race which is known as the problem. And an age which is also the problem.
Racial profiling is not “probably cause”.
This is malignant racism.
“Racial profiling is not “probably cause”.
This is malignant racism.”
Ok, you are no longer “cute”. You are just a liberal POS. I will no longer respond to your stupidity.
Mostly a good analysis. This will be a redux of the Rodney King case with the video. Zimmerman beats Florida charges but Eric “Hang Whitey High” puts him in Leavenworth followed by huge civil lawsuit.
NOTE: Something strange going on at Google. Compare the results number when you google these:
1. Trayvon Martin
2. Jesus Christ
3. Jesus
Looks like Google will join the fanning the flames club with the “first billion count” results. Busy little Tweeters, fingers to the iPod and all.
Everyone seems to be assuming that the 17 year old defending himself is completely factual. Without forensics to prove that the injuries to Zimmerman were really caused by Martin it is hearsay. Any gun owner in Florida knows about the ‘stand your ground law’ and would instantly realize if he happened to kill an unarmed person that it’d be better to have some injuries for himself. My personal opinion is that it seems rather odd that a 17 year old kid, whether up to mischief or criminal activity or not, would try to fight a large man with a gun.
Maybe Mr Zimmerman still had his gun in it’s concealed holster before he was wrongfully attacked. Did that ever cross your mind? That Dear lovable Travon thought he could just beat the cr*p out of some fat old unarmed homeowner and walk away clean.
And maybe Zimmerman figured he could intimidate some skinny beanpole because he had his gun to hide behind if anything got tense.
That he might be be harassing some friend or family of one his neighbors is completely irrelevant because he just wanted to roust someone and could.
Could be.
But Mr Zimmerman has a 11 year history with the local PD and no arrest or conviction I know of.
How about you? Do you have any specific knowledge of charges against Mr Zimmerman?
Seems like a standup guy to me so far.
Google for this
“public records show that Zimmerman was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer.”
Ah, the mullet do rise this eve. LOL
Interesting that the only path I found on this leads to hufington post manure. I also note even there they admit the charges were dropped.
Now for assignment number two. Maybe you can tell me why Dear lovable Travon was suspended from school.
I read that already, the answer is tardiness.
Ah, tardy was he.
You liberal POS are so easy to catch in your lies. The wonderful, innocent Travon was a 17 year old.. a minor. Most States it is unlawful to release any details of their record.
Yeah, you “read” it alright. LOL
I read it in a comment section on Little Green Footballs
But of course if I think that it shouldn’t be a crime to be a black teen age boy walking down the street then I’m a liar. God!
In any case it’s not illegal for his friends and family to talk to the press.
Nope, not illegal for dear lovable Travon’s family and friends to say what they want. But for you to source that as truth is well.. a lie. A Liberal POS attempt to face as truth that which they know is sourced from a hearsay and heavily dubious family account of the deceased.
It either makes you a liar or an incredulous lout. Either way … not good for your veracity in anything you say.
Heck, I could say I have read reports it was because of gang activity(and I have), but that is unsubstantiated so I do not make that claim as a truth. You however are a liberal with no such grounding in honesty.
You’ve already said that a black man can not be considered harmless and that merely being black and male is sufficient reason to confront him with deadly force.
Hmm, so 100% of the population of black men deserve to be harassed and confronted wherever they go.
In that same context you called yourself a “realist” about race.
I don’t think you have any standing to call other people names.
I also noticed above that you made the rather insane claim that you’ve been shot at by Treyvon Martin. I didn’t even take you up on that, but if you’re ready to spring this new testimony on the world you go right ahead.
For those who don’t believe me that Fantom ranted this weirdness (who knows what he meant by it), it was posted at 5:39 and said:
Well, someone below has commented that a witness did happen to see Martin beating up Zimmerman. I think the best wisdom in this case is to heed the advice to not comment until further evidence is shown. That’s what I’m going to do anyway.
@David Schulnik
“No it’s not interesting.
The word “Hispanic” means “comes from a background where his ancestors spoke Spanish”, it had no bearing on his race which maps to certain features that were considered important by a 19th century (and earlier) non-scientific theory that broke humanity up into distinct races.
I understand that many Americans think that white means “looks European, doesn’t have an accent and doesn’t look like any of those furriners to the south” ie it means “LIKE ME” and nothing else, but you know what? Look at Zimmerman’s picture, he’s lilly white! And “my grandpa spoke Spanish” is not a race!!! You know what else? Spaniards are white!
Your idea of race is ignorant. I’m sorry if that sounds insulting, but you’re simply wrong and there is no better way to put it.”
It was a fair bet someone wouldn’t get it and it just happened to be Mr. Schulnik. Congratulations. My focus and my point is that the Race-hustlers like Sharpton and media outlets like the N.Y. Times are the ones making race the issue. If Mr. Zimmerman is not White (not in color, but in ethnicity), It’s a non-issue to idiots like Sharpton and the N.Y. Times. And you appear to confused by color/ethnicity, as well. Skin color is irrelevant to ethnicity. It doesn’t appear you’ve travelled much, either. There are fair-skinned, red-headed Italians, Mexicans and Spaniards. Mr. Zimmerman isn’t “lilly white’ complexioned, either. You really need glasses as well as a grasp.
As for Zimmerman’s race, I may have been fooled by a newspaper photoshopping his picture. But as I explained in my 5:35 post, it doesn’t change anything if Zimmerman is considered white. Hispanics can hate blacks too.
What does matter is that this law reminds everyone of the 50′s and 60′s and before when black teen boys were killed all the time for no reason, and their killers never punished. When all black teens had to be told to act meek and never look a white man in the eye, never raise your voice because it’s so likely that racists will kill you.
If a black teen can be killed and even though there is no evidence that he did anything wrong, his known killer is not tried, then it seems like this “stand your ground” law is allowing the bad old days to return. You might not want to admit that Florida and it’s government is racist against blacks by 2013 standards, but that fact is well known to black people.
I feel like what’s going on in this thread is that people are so unhappy with blacks that they WANT it to be legal to intimidate black teen boys, and if that means that some of those boys get shot to death they want it that way.
In short they WANT to return to the days when black men were intimidated and scared.
This isn’t just racism, this is the feelings that underlie extreme racism.
And you won’t want to think about it, but this is a call to make black children in America terrorized.
What does matter is that this law reminds everyone of the 50′s and 60′s and before when black teen boys were killed all the time for no reason
I’d take it as a personal favor if you could refrain from constantly describing your own feelings as being what “everyone” thinks. I very much doubt even you think that “black boys were killed all the time for no reason in the 50′s and 60′s”, not unless you are even more poorly educated than you appear. You’re just a dishonest rabbble-rouser trying to stir up trouble.
It doesn’t matter if I say it, black people remember it and they know EXACTLY what it means, what it reminds them of, when the killer of an unarmed black teen boy is not charged.
I am not “stirring up trouble,” I’m telling you exactly how most black people feel about this case. They have brains to remember, they don’t need Al Sharpton to tell them what their history is. They know.
That’s the way it is, whether you want to face it or not.
It doesn’t matter if I say it, black people remember it
They do not remember it because it did not happen. They may believe it, because they have this fraudulent account of American history shoved down their throats on a daily basis by idiot leftists. But they do not remember it.
And the older people who remember their high-school classmates being killed, their memories don’t matter?
Denialism is an odd thing. We’re all aware of what holocaust denial means.. but who wants to look into other kinds of denial?
If someone started documenting how black teens have been killed over the decades you wouldn’t be interested (and neither would I to be honest), but you’d also say that they were liberals stirring up trouble.
But history is history, and memory is memory and the way black people felt terrorized actually did happen.
So what do we do about denial?
And the older people who remember their high-school classmates being killed
They don’t remember their classmates being killed. Stop lying.
We’re all aware of what holocaust denial means.. but who wants to look into other kinds of denial?
You don’t want to look into liberalisms denial of actual America history, that’s for sure. You are much happier with made-up history in which “black boys” in the 50′s and 60′s were facing a veritable Holocaust and nobody could walk down the street without seeing some black kid hanging from a lamppost.
history is history
Indeed it is. And your version of history is a vicious and racist lie.
So what do we do about denial?
Have you considered seeing a good therapist?
Fine, since your claiming something different than black people say, YOU tell us what YOU think it was like to be black in the south.
Include some documentation.
I will include exactly as much documentation as you did, David, which is zero.
But then, you are the one who is proposing to write a brand new version of history in which millions of “black boys” were murdered in America in the 50′s and 60′s. So I think that it is you who needs to provide documentation, not me.
If someone started documenting how black teens have been killed over the decades ..
By white people, I assume you mean. I’m sure the number must be in the dozens. Probably not scores, but I’d guess more than twelve.
In other words, a tiny fraction of the number of black teens killed by other blacks.
I’ll be happy to to have this discussion with you, David, if you are foolish enough to go there.
I believe I am allowed one link per post.
This isn’t an easy thing to google for so I will include some other things that give a taste:
http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/static/40lives.pdf
“The killer was never indicted because no one would admit they saw a white man shoot a black man.”
I read a lot of articles and hear people on the radio talking about the Trayvon Martin case saying things like:
Well done, David! That is one black person. He is not in fact a “black teen”, which, along with “black boys”, was your contention. But he does count as one black person.
Now if you can just come up with a hundred thousand more, you’ll be somewhat on your way to making your case.
While you are at it, keeping working on the list of all those “black boys” (kind of racist of you to say “black boys”, wasn’t it?) and “black teens” you mentioned.
Actually that link had 40 people but the point was culture where black men are not treated fairly, both in this quote “The killer was never indicted because no one would admit they saw a white man shoot a black man. and the fact that black mothers in America used to have warn their boys that they’re in mortal danger if they act as confidently as white boys.
I heard a woman on NPR yesterday reminiscing about how when she was a young teen, just as she was coming to notice boys, some of those very boys in her school died this way. By her age this would have been the early 80s or late 70s.
We learned last week that a poll of Alabama Republicans (by Public Policy Polling) that only 46% say that mixed race marriage should be legal. Don’t try to claim that there isn’t racism in the south.
Actually that link had 40 people .
Actually the request to you was that you provide the names of a few dozen of the “black teens” you claimed were murdered by whites.
Lamar Smith was 63 years old at the time of his death. Please don’t tell me that you regard a 63 year old black man as a “boy”, David.
But please do make at least a token effort to respond to my question. Your effort so far does not even count as “token”.
I heard a woman on NPR yesterday reminiscing about how when she was a young teen, just as she was coming to notice boys, some of those very boys in her school died this way.
Well, there’s an authoritative source!
Jews have a reputation for being intelligent, David. You seem to be on a mission to prove that that reputation is a myth.
You’re being deliberately obtuse, ignoring the picture I’m painting, the points I’ve made.
Sigh, if you don’t want me to assume the worst about your intentions then make a serious effort to address what it has been like to be a black person in the south.
Do you think it’s been a walk in the park?
You’re being deliberately obtuse, ignoring the picture I’m painting, the points I’ve made.
I’m being deliberately obtuse? You are the one stubbornly resisting my request that you provide a shred of hard evidence to back up your outrageous claims, claims of the mass murder of young blacks in the 50′s and 60′s, claims which are essentially blood libel. I do not want you to “paint a picture”. I want you give me the names of these scores of thousands of young black men you say were murdered by racist whites.
if you don’t want me to assume the worst about your intentions
The most loathsome and repellent racist on this thread, by a country mile, is named David Schulnik. I do not have to assume anything about your intentions. Your ignorance, hatred and bigotry drip off the page.
What you just said is a total disconnect from reality.
It’s a defense mechanism called “projection” – the problem is that you can’t face what you see in yourself.
Sorry, there’s nothing I can do to make you saner.
Hispanics CAN hate black people too? Where have you been living man, under a rock? There is an impending race war and all whites have to do is step back and get out of the way.
We live in a world where there is racial and sectarian and tribal and clan and language based hatred in most countries worse than it is in the US.
Yes the idiots who think that racism is just caused by European whites are ignorant fools.
…
I would argue that what we SHOULDN’T have is laws that help turn racism into open warfare. I think it’s possible for the US to get less racist and to stay one of the least racist countries.
If we let people act as junior, untrained, uncontrolled, unofficial police and don’t punish them if they let their prejudices lead to violence, then we’re forcing America to regress.
Whether the problem is a bad law or a law that is too easy for bigoted officials to turn into a license to terrorize, the fact is that foolish law is foolish law.
Zimmerman should have been charged and had his day in court.
If we really need so many people on the street watching the teens then maybe we need more REAL police.
Also, if you want to catch thieves, why not set up cameras on your house? Technology can catch people, and the probability that your computer will have delusions that it’s Dirty Harry are nil.
But to say “There is an impending race war and all whites have to do is step back and get out of the way” ought to make me think about where I am.
Either it’s wrong to break America up into races or it isn’t. It’s hypocritical to attack Al Sharpton for promoting victim thinking then to turn around and talk about “race war” and make it sound like white people are victims.
You know there is some utility to PCness. “race war” is a non-pc term, and that makes it a useful marker in this sense. Whenever you hear someone say “there’s gonna be a race war” there’s a high probability that you’re talking to someone who is LOOKING FORWARD to a race war.
I see you repeated this claptrap elsewhere.
.. when black boys (ok, teens probably) were shot every week because they ran into a racist white person
It should be a trivial task for you to document this “every week” occurrence of “black boys” getting shot by racist whites.
If it happened, that is.
Jack Dunphy – Thank you for looking into this matter more deeply than Robert VerBruggen whose rush to judgment was that Zimmerman must be guilty. I commented at VerBruggen’s column on NRO that we should not jump to conclusions about the innocence or guilt of Mr. Zimmerman. I also made the same point at Mr. Hans Von Spasky’s column here on PJM. My reason for doing so is the very famous Duke-LaCrosse case where everyone jumped to the conclusion that three white boys had raped a black woman, when indeed no such thing had happened. American law gives the benefit of the doubt to the accused, and we should do no less. Remember, most of what we know comes from the LSM, and the LSM has an agenda, and one of things on its agenda is banning guns. So, I would discount much of what the LSM has to say about this and wait for people such as Mr. Dunphy to give us a straight account of what happened.
There seems to be some kind of feeling that because jerks like Sharpton are calling for Zimmerman’s arrest, people on the right should be supporting him.
Ridiculous.
I am a former Police Dispatcher and I cannot conceive of a circumstance that would justify this shooting. The “Stand Your Ground” law does not even apply in this case.
I don’t know why this guy is not in jail awaiting trial.
I’m sure that the newspapers have got facts wrong, they always do. But I am absolutely floored by the Police Chief’s decision to wait for a Grand Jury.
I’m sure that the newspapers have got facts wrong, they always do.
True, though that’s not bias, it’s just incompetence. If you ever been involved in something then read a newspaper account of it, you know that papers are incompetent.
I don’t know why this guy is not in jail awaiting trial.
Every black person in Florida knows why, and so do most in the rest of the country. In this age of internet and social media, just try to bring back the bad old days when killing black boys is no problem at all, just try. Even if they papers TRIED to stay out of it, they sure couldn’t.
Probably because there is no “there there”. Like Tawana Brawley.
Leftist media has the setup, black racist are on the march. Truth will show it as the black racist garbology it is… if truth is allowed to come forth.
One significant difference: Tawana Brawley wasn’t raped, or assaulted. She made it all up.
If Travon made this up, he’s doing a very good job of acting, down there at the morgue.
There’s several things that stink about this case:
1) Neighborhood watch should not be armed
2) Neighborhood watch should not confront suspects
3) Why WAS the kid there?
4) How come the only pics on TV of this kid show him age 12? I don’t like the way viewers are being manipulated to assume that the big guy could not POSSIBLY have felt threatened.
5) I don’t like the idea of assuming guilt until proven innocent. Where’s the evidence?
6) Why the rush to judgement?
7) Doesn’t Sharpton have anything better to do than pour gasoline on these kind of incidents? (Yeah, I know the answer…he’s making a buck…)
1) Neighborhood watch should not be armed
I hope we’re not the only people on PJ willing to say this.
2) Neighborhood watch should not confront suspects
Once again, I hope we’re not the only people on PJ willing to say this.
It would say something really bad about this place if people want armed vigilantes intimidating all black kids who have the temerity to show their faces in white neighborhoods.
7) Doesn’t Sharpton have anything better to do than pour gasoline on these kind of incidents? (Yeah, I know the answer…he’s making a buck…)
To be fair, I’m sure he assumes that this will continue, that more kids will be killed, more killers left uncharged, unless people are organized to change the law.
Though in these days of social media, people organize easily even without anyone like Sharpton around.
Why was the kid there? Uuuggghhh…not sure if your asking why was he in the area or deciding to put his hood on and walk fast? I’m unclear on what your asking.
I know the media is not a pillar of integrity but I feel somewhat confident in the fact that he was visiting his father and had walked to the store.
If the moral of this story is not to jump to snap conclusions, then maybe we should do just that.
I wasn’t there, and I don’t trust the fragments of information provided in the media to piece together what really happened.
We will never know what really happened because even with an eye witness, it’s second hand accounts unless we were there. Similar to how we don’t know what happened to NitxMary Brown, Shawn Bell or Caylee Anthony, but do we just throw our hands up? I’m confident in the FBI and Grand Jury’s ability to make the best decision they can with the evidence that they have at hand.
C’est La Vie
If we didn’t have foolish laws and policies where (racist?) politicians and police allow every local nutcase to deputize himself as police/judge/jury&executioner then we wouldn’t have these politicized cases where everyone is angry and we wonder who’s lying.
You know maybe it would be worth while just funding, you know, actual police.
Between this case and Mr. Sandusky’s case at Penn State, there’s no need for a trial where findings of fact and conclusions of law can be adjudicated. Trial by media seems to be gaining acceptance in the United States.
The law looking into the matter of Zimmerman’s actions is a separate issue to that of the business (and it IS a business) racializing every incident. We can walk and chew gume here, Mr. Schulnik. No one here is saying Zimmerman’s actions were appropriate. IMHO…HIS ACTIONS REQUIRE INVESTIGATION. But not at the point of, “No justice, no peace.” It’s alright to point out that the same people (Sharpton, et al) that race-hustle every issue and incident are the same ones that are silent when it’s a black on white incident, that there’s a 70% out-of-wedlock birthrate in the Black community, that Black on Black crime in the inner-city is through the roof, that Black teens attempting to do well in school are considered, “sell outs” and in general, their graduation rates are abysmal.
Scapegoating is not going to solve the myriad of issues confronting the Black community
There would have been less of a racial issue if the police didn’t protect Zimmerman.
If he had his day in court to win or lose, then at least we could say that the police did their job.
If Zimmerman won, then there might be some backlash against the stand-your-ground law, but in the current case we have two kinds of backlash reenforcing each other.
I haven’t read the entire thread but from what I see most you haven’t seen most of the pertinent facts.
(1) According to the Miami Herald there was a second 911 call from a resident who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating the crap out him. Martin may be 17 but he is a 6’2″ football player.
(2) According to Zimmerman, he chambered a round and add one to the magazine. The gun twas found with an empty chamber and a full magazine. Zimmerman had a Kel Tec 9mm in his possession. I know there aren’t many gun guys on here so I will explain what that means. The Kel Tec ia polymer frame pistol. When you shoot a polymer framed pistol limp wristed you often get a failure to feed (FTF). The FTF indicates that Zimmerman fired during his fight with Martin and not while he was free from him. I am surprised that officer Dunphy didn’t pick up on this little factoid.
(3) Martin was on a one week suspension from school. They are not saying why but as we all know teenage boys usually get suspended for fighting. It may not be relevant to the actual encounter but it will be relevant to the jury when they assess Martin’s state of mind.
(4) There are two things that work against Zimmerman. He left his vehicle against the advice of police and Martins girlfriend has said that he was frighten because someone was following him.
The most likely scenario is that Martin felt cornered by a potential criminal and felt he had no option but to go up against the attacker. Zimmerman perceives this as an attack by a criminal canvasing the neighborhood. Both parties made a fatal error and thus the tragedy. One of them was going to die.
Sticking to the objective facts Zimmerman will be found not guilty. A good attorney can demonstrate that there is more than reasonable doubt about Zimmerman’s guilt. The preponderance of objective evidence is actually in Zimmerman’s favor.
Race/ethnicity has become a party to this case. Martin’s family has played the race card and Zimmerman will end up playing the Hispanic card. (yes officer Dunphy, Zimmerman is Hispanic) His attorney is going to see to it that as many Hispanics find their way on the jury as he can whether the case is tried in State or Federal court. There is no way that any prosecutor is going get a conviction on this for anything more than reckless endangerment. I would place money that Zimmerman will be indicted on something like negligent homicide and than offered a deal to make the case go away.
The Kel- Tec 9′s failure to feed when limp wristed, that is not firmly gripped when fired, is not a function of a polymer frame but rather a short 3.1 inch barrel.
A few manufacturers have done well overcoming a short barrel and failure to feed. That is why I carry a Kimber ultra II in 45 acp.
But usually a failure to feed leaves one round partially stove-pipped, that is a half jam.
Anyways I would be interested in where you got your info. As the police reports I have read do not go into that detail. They do say, however, that the kel tec 9 in question was sequestered by LEO at the time. Another thing which is not truthfully reported by the Schulnik types.
Source is the Orlando Sentinal.
Yes, it can happen with any pistol but it is much more likely with a polymer of any size than a traditional steel frame gun. When I first fired my Springfield XDm Compact (3.8″) barrel I had several stove pipes/ftf/failure of the slide to lock back at the last round. Never had that with my 1911. I have seen ftf with ejection from full sized Glocks.
Bottom line still holds. The evidence points to Zimmerman firing from close range during a struggle. I bet the autopsy shows stippling around the wound.
This tragedy is a product of mutual misperception.
Oh I agree with what it means.
Also a polymer frame is lighter, so yes it must be held firmer. That too is correct.
“This tragedy is a product of mutual misperception”
This tragedy is the product of an armed man not ACTING like an armed man.
An armed man going out of his way to follow a stranger has to be AWARE of the potential for “mutual misperceptions”, and AVOID THEM.
Avoid confrontations. Do NOT follow on foot. BE aware that THE MOST LIKELY consequence of following someone around is, that they will take offense to BEING FOLLOWED…so DONT BE THERE you freaking DOLT. This is not rocket science. It is the common responsibilities of an armed citizen.
Listen to the freaking dispatcher. Stay in your nice safe (locked) car, so you can circle his “last known” location if you desire, while waiting for the police. You have the ability to jump on the gas and get away if the “suspicious kid on foot” picks up a rock because he’s “insulted” by your dumb ass following him all over.
In short, have a freaking CLUE about the simple, likely, real world consequences of your actions when you are ARMED….
Because when the INEVITABLE confrontation occurs, the one ANY REASONABLE PERSON EXPECTS WILL OCCUR when you “follow a stranger” around…ESPECIALLY if they seem at all “suspicious/dangerous”….it will be YOUR FAULT when you have to draw your weapon to defend yourself from a situation YOU EASILY COULD HAVE, AND BY ANY REASONABLE MORAL STANDARD, SHOULD HAVE, AVOIDED.
Zimmerman f*cked up, and quite badly.
He may not be “criminally” guilty of murder, but he’s a moron for allowing himself to even BE in that position at all.
With no due respect to Reverend Al, the family and their supporters should shed this man as a spokesman and everything else. His involvement only hurts their (IMO from what I know thus far, only) righteous cause.
Before Zimmerman is lynched by the all knowing press lets execute a search warrant and see if we don’t find some items taken in local burglaries in this poor innocent childs home.
Why would this matter? Trayvon Martin could have been Florida’s answer to Al Capone and it would make no difference to whether or not the shooting was justified. There is no dispute that Martin wasn’t committing any crime prior to Zimmerman confronting him.
Since I live about an hour and a half E/SE of Sanford, my news media is over whelmed with Trayvon Martin news. I found it a bit disturbing that they keep refering to this 17 yr. old as a ‘child’, but there was a story on the state news page of the local paper yesterday, about a black ‘youth’ who was on trial for shooting and killing two white English tourists who were drunk, and wandered into his neighborhood. They were not robbed, just plain murdered. The lad had his 17th birthday on Monday. He was only 16 when the crime occurred. Al Sharpton seems to be strangely silent when crimes like this happen, or when there is black on black killing; which is way more predominant than the Martin case. So far, I have been unsuccessful in finding a deck of cards with a race card in it. It seems they have all been purchased by the media, the Administration, and Al and Jesse.
The problem with the Martin/Zimmerman case is that Zimmerman has been treated as being above the law, as if there is no problem with leaving the dead body of an unarmed black man on the street.
I’m sure that in the case you of the 16 year old killing the tourists the police didn’t say that there was no reason to arrest the killer.
That would be a difference would it not?
NPR reported that Martin was suspended for being truant according to school records…
*Hands Trembling In Fear of Being Followed Home And Gunned Down In Front Yard For Being Late To Work*
Guessing the author may need more facts for the rapist going around my neighborhood just to make sure the women aren’t “asking for it.”
*Rethinking Wearing Lime Green Yoga Pants On Morning Run*
To be honest, I’m thinking that I’m making a mistake being in this thread.
I’m misrepresenting PJ media as a place that has reasonable readers.
When you’ve been here long enough you realize that this is an atroturfed site who’s purpose is to promote anti-Democrat and anti-centrist propaganda.
They’ve avoided threads on the Martin/Zimmerman case but both of them had as a point – attacks on the Department of Justice and the Obama administration. That’s all they care about.
Charles said he quit this site because the backers didn’t want it to be bipartisan and reasonable and replaced all of the good people with right wing toadies. Obviously he made the mistake of giving power to people who had money instead of just taking advertising.
I should just stay away.
I watch PJ go up and down but the trajectory isn’t good.
I should just stay away.
We’ll miss your special blend of left-wing lunacy, racism, and irrational thinking.
Who will we have to regale us with tales of how “black boys” were being murdered everywhere you looked in the 50′s and 60′s if you leave?
I want you to say just to remind everyone of the insanity we are up against.
I meant “astroturfed” of course.
The unusual thing is that they left comments on for this thread, maybe because it’s front page.
Lately all of the threads seem to invisibly disable comments after the first couple hours. The better to control the appearance I suppose.
here is a youtube video of a news report after the incident, before zimmmerman or martin were actually identified.
Trayvon Martin-the truth
In it at the 22 second mark an eyewitness, who saw the struggle taking place tells the reporter that a guy in a red sweater was on the ground and the other guy was punching him. the guy in the sweater yelled for help, but the witness locked his patio door, called 911 and went up to his second floor window. That is when he heard the shot. The guy on top punching the other guy was the one who was shot. Check out this report.
Bill – Excellent find, but don’t expect anyone out there who has decided Zimmerman must be guilty is listening. I have repeatedly cautioned commenters not to jump to conclusions, and I keep pointing to the Duke-LaCrosse where just such a rush to judgment had the students guilty of rape when in fact they were innocent. Judging from comments after mine, very few seem to be listening.
Here is the address to the youtube video about the actual eyewitness who saw the fight…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThfWhsgw48o
@43. tdiinva
While I hate playing armchair quarterback, this is a scenario from tdiinva
that is not only plausible but highly likely. Mr. Zimmerman’s major error is, Taking action. A tip to all non-law enforcement folks….When a civillian neighborhood watch member is observing suspicious activity that is NOT immediately life-threatening, be a good witness and call police. Otherwise, you too could be on the ass end of a nationalized civil rights lawsuit and murder beef that has spun out of control into a racial issue. Life ruining for both parties in this case.
Speak Wise One…
“NPR reported that Martin was suspended for being truant according to school records…”
Suspended for being truant. Wow. That’s exactly what kids need, the punishment of being away from school for being away from school. Stunning.
Hhhhmmm…guess that puts the kibosh on the school teacher that heard Martin yelling “no,no” right before the shot coupled with the recording of her and him in the background on the 911 tape:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-trayvon-martin-family-20120315,0,2583523.story
Why? Martin begging for his life is no indicator of how the fight started, just how it ended (which we already knew).
The key question is who started the fight. Not the confrontation, the actual, violent, fight. It is entirely plausible that Martin chose to beat up the guy who was hassling him, only to realize the situation had spun out of control and the fight he started had become a threat to his life.
If Martin was begging for his life then he was no longer a threat.
If the law allows you to shoot a man who is begging for his life, then there is something very wrong with that law!
I’m sorry, I’ve been drinking. It looks as if your position is that someone begging for their life isn’t a threat. That can’t be the case, because that would be one of the dumbest things ever written. A man begging for his life could be reaching for another weapon, or waiting for friends to arrive, or simply waiting for the other party to get fatigued or distracted.
Reading through this thread I see you do this a lot. Take tiny, irrelevant, details and throw them out, coupled with superficial and half-baked moralizing, as conclusive and damning evidence. It’s almost as if you’ve already made a decision and are desperately trying to justify it. But that can’t be the case, after all we know you’re “reasonable”, you’ve told us yourself. A quote from “The Princess Bride” comes to mind.
If he’s begging then he’s talking and not attacking.
At that point you can tell him to back up out of striking distance, there’s no need to shoot.
“If he’s begging then he’s talking and not attacking.”
How do you know this? Is there some physiological reason to assume you cannot talk and attack at the same time? Perhaps a psychological interlock that prevents forward motion while saying “No”? If so I’m sure the medical community would be fascinated in your evidence. Might even get you a Nobel Prize.
Of course, if this is just you talking out of your ass in order to justify your prejudiced and ignorant opinion the reception might be somewhat cooler.
If Martin was begging for his life then he was no longer a threat.
He was not begging for his life. Stop taking everything you read at Daily Kos as the unvarnished truth.
I heard the school teachers 911 call. She did not know who was yelling for help. She assumed it was the person that was shot. She also said that a person in a white shirt was on top hitting the other person but yet it was too dark to tell any physical description.
Which one of them was wearing a white tshirt?
That poor lady was traumatized and probably still is.
Martin was not yelling “no, no” right before the shot.
Why are we talking about this? How many whites are killed by blacks every year with scarcely a mention in the local newspaper? Boy oh boy am I sick of this b.s.
But in this case the police know who it was and refuse to arrest him.
That’s the reason this story has legs.
“George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old… man”
“Zimmerman’s 46 calls to police came over the course of 11 years…”
28 – 11 = 17.
Zimmerman started doing this neighborhood watch thing when he was seventeen?
That’s weird. It tends to support his characterization as a cop wannabe.
ISTM that Zimmerman’s actions would support at minimum a charge of reckless endangerment. A neighborhood watcher’s duty is to watch and call police as needed, not to intervene. Zimmerman had no training for what he apparently tried to do – and which he had to know carried the risk of deadly violence.
Suppose he had fired a stray round which wounded or killed someone in one of the nearby residences? Even if Martin was a criminal, Zimmerman would almost certainly be found guilty of reckless endangerment and (if someone was killed) manslaughter.
The basic point remains – Zimmerman had no business pursuing Martin. He acted in a foolish and irresponsible manner, which he knew endangered people in the area. That’s criminal.
You’d think after doing it for 11 years he’d be a lot better at it, that also supports the idea that he was a nut.
Rich,
Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more.
I’ve been a cop in Chicago since the mid 80′s. I’ve been following this case for a few weeks now. I’m no detective, but the Sanford PD blew this investigation. No blood test of Zimmerman. No testing the blood on Zimmerman to see if it was his or Martin’s. No formal interview. They seemingly just took his word for everything. They didn’t even have the sense to take Martin’s phone and look for someone to contact and waited till his father contacted them the next day.
Initially I just figured it was a small town department screwing up, but that department is over 150 members. Zimmerman’s description of the events doesn’t make sense. He claims he got out of his car to look at street signs to figure out his location and was attacked by Martin, but the shooting occurred hundreds of feet from his SUV. Plus given the vivid directions he gave to the 911 dispatcher I find it hard to believe he didn’t know his location.
Zimmerman did seem to call 911 frequently to report suspicious black guys walking in his neighborhood. Any cop who has ever worked in a white neighborhood bordering a black neighborhood will be familiar with those calls. I had my first call like that after I transferred districts in the mid 90′s. I remember it vividly because the suspicious black guy was an elderly janitor or landscaper at the local school waiting at the bus stop. I got the same damn call a few times a month from the local busybodies.
Now I’m not a gun nut, but I do think that the NRA lobby has largely won the argument regarding guns in this country. Trying to change that is futile and a waste of time. What isn’t a waste of time is requiring that people use their guns responsibly. Zimmerman didn’t.
Also some of the facts that Zimmerman supporters are posting here are complete bullshit. Martin was staying at his dad’s girlfriends house. There is a convenience store about 1/2 a mile away.
As for the reason this story has legs it’s because it’s different. That’s the definition of news. Blacks killing blacks is a daily thing. Last weekend in Chicago we had at least ten homicides and probably forty or more shootings. I lost count. All but one or two occurred in black communities.
Now I’ve posted on other sites that the likelihood of a young black kid being killed by someone who is black is a whole lot higher than him being killed by a white or hispanic, and that’s the fact. However, the emotions generated by a young black kid being killed by an older white or hispanic guy on the way home from a convenience store outweighs the anger of the far more common killings.
The Sanford PD’s lack of an investigation just made this situation worse and the Chief’s earlier statements seemed like he was more concerned about the image of his department than the death of a 17 year old.
Thank you for making a sensible and informative comment.
Too many people act as if this were a soccer game, where they’re cheering for the white team, and if one of their players makes a foul – well that’s all good because the other team has made fouls in the past.
‘..cheering for the White team..’ – hey another knee-jerk reactionist (with a *hint* of racism to boot.. good on ya!) who gets their skewed ‘information’ from alphabet networks, emotional-laden websites providing ONLY what you want to read.
Secondly, your comment(s) are so pedantic, illogical and of an emotional nature.. I may even take away the ‘alphabet, website’ comment and say you function on PURE emotion.
I’ll go out on a limb and say your AoE isn’t law, law enforcement.
FYI: Zimmerman hasn’t been arrested because FACTS, testimonies/ eyewitness testimonies, evidence collection, investigations etc., need to be collected/ carried out, analyzed and sorted.
This is America, David. Not 70′s USSR.
Zimmerman hasn’t been arrested because FACTS, testimonies/ eyewitness testimonies, evidence collection, investigations etc., need to be collected/ carried out, analyzed and sorted.
I wish.
As Spuds Lonigan pointed out, the evidence was ignored, allowed to rot and the trail is cold.
The police didn’t want to investigate, they just took Zimmerman’s word for it.
I have this image that Zimmerman is a retard who’s been calling this crap in for 11 years, they know him and pity him. And when he killed someone, they deliberately let it slide, forgetting that police can’t get away with letting innocent kids get killed, not in this day and age.
Wow, you are a hateful and ignorant person.
Zimmerman did seem to call 911 frequently to report suspicious black guys walking in his neighborhood. Any cop who has ever worked in a white neighborhood bordering a black neighborhood will be familiar with those calls. I had my first call like that after I transferred districts in the mid 90′s. I remember it vividly because the suspicious black guy was an elderly janitor or landscaper at the local school waiting at the bus stop. I got the same damn call a few times a month from the local busybodies.
I read an article yesterday where other members of Zimmerman’s neighborhood watch said that the man was trouble, took his gun with him to meetings called them all pussies etc. etc. This was not a case where the neighbors were shocked and said that he seemed like such a nice person who would never do harm.
The difference between Zimmerman and those other retards who call the police whenever an elderly black janitor waits for the bus that Zimmerman loved to play cop, stalked a kid who was doing nothing suspicious other than being black from his truck, took his gun to follow and intimidate a kid who was doing nothing and ended up shooting him.
Sounds like a worse retard than all those other busybodies.
Why don’t you ask yourself why he’s been PLAYING cop since he was 17 himself and never took the step to BECOMING a cop? He probably wasn’t smart enough to become a real cop.
David, by no means am I a PC advocate.
Though I’m compelled to address your horribly derogatory, ignorant word usage regarding mentally impaired/ disabled people.
It’s 10+ years into the 21st Century, David. You obviously have little contact, regard though most importantly the due respect for the aforementioned people and associated people improving the capabilities of those you ridicule.
paul_unalaska – Spot-on!!
Thank you, Jack.
Someone very close to me is an educator of mild/ moderate learning disabled children, teens.
Whereas the same educator was born with learning disorders. That person learned sign language prior to learning to speak amongst other feats.
Suffice to say that same person overcame many obstacles, received straight A’s through school, college. Was on the President’s List all 6 years in school and truth be told is my hero.
Sure I, ‘Shouldn’t feed the trolls’ though ignorance should be addressed time-to-time.
K/r
Spuds, you’ve worn the uniform for ~25 years and before ALL the information is provided on this case you’re passing judgment?
Yet another reminder why Chi-town is an armpit of crime, unionistas and cronyism of epic proportion.
With respect to YOUR comment of the frequency of ‘calls regarding Black guys..’ –
The information I’ve read, whereas ALL news sources haven’t redacted the, ’46 calls in 1 year’ rather than the actual ~7 1/2 years though that’s besides the point. Zimmerman mentioned the ‘suspicious characters’ being Black ONLY 6 times. Of the supposed 46 calls. That’s ~12% of the calls involving Black people.
He’d also made 911 calls involving White, HIspanic people as well. I’d gotten this from The Daily Beast of all sites:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html
Lastly it’s a shame good ol’ Sharpton, Jackson, Jackson Jr. and their ilk didn’t show up or decry flash mobs occurring at fairs, malls, 7-11′s etc., through the years.
Oh that’s right. The ‘already’ guilty party is NOT Black in this case. Get the pitchforks.
I’m not a cheerleader for Zimmerman but I do respect and hoped law enforcement would as well.. the law.
Spuds Lonigan: You wrote: “Now I’m not a gun nut, but I do think that the NRA lobby has largely won the argument regarding guns in this country.” I just want to point that it is not a matter of the NRA winning the argument; it is a matter of the Constitution which clearly states: The right of the people to keep and beaer arms will not be infringed.” Indeed the 14th Amendment was passed because the Southern states were infringing on the rights of the recently freed black slaves to be armed. (A Supreme Court decision before the Civil War had held the Second Amendment only applied to the Federal government; hence the need for 14th Amendment.) If there is an agrument, it is the anti-gunners who have been making it by trying to say the Second Amendment means something other than what is says. But of course, these are the same types who gave us Roe v. Wade by reading the penumbra of the Constitution. They called that creative reading the “Living Constitution,” but like all thing Orwellian what they are really calling it is the dead Constitution.
I forgot to comment on Sharpton. Calling him a race clown would be an insult to race clowns. Whatever involvement he ends up having in this case is irrelevant. Just like whatever involvement some of the more assholeish white racists may have in this case is irrelevant.
Zimmerman shouldn’t be tried because of the history of race relations in America. That’s irrelevant. If he faces trial, and I suspect he will, he should be tried because of his actions of that night.
Now apparently Zimmerman’s dad is an attorney. I suggest they start thinking about a plea bargain and pleading to whatever the Florida equivalent is of involuntary manslaughter. The facts in this case don’t look good for him.
Some conspiracy theorists have suggested that the reason the Sanford PD screwed up the investigation is because they feared being sued by Zimmerman Senior. I tend not to believe in conspiracy theories and am inclined to believe that laziness and a complete misunderstanding of Florida “Stand Your Ground” law is the more likely reason.
It’s also worth noting that many law enforcement organizations oppose such laws because they feel it puts cops in unnecessary danger.
I tend to believe that SYG laws needed to be tightened up a bit. Some of the examples I’ve been reading out of Florida are just plain FUTZ. Gangbangers getting into shootouts and being found not guilty based on SYG laws. Shit.
“It’s also worth noting that many law enforcement organizations oppose such laws because they feel it puts cops in unnecessary danger.”
Then they should find another line of work. I have some experience in law enforcement, still have friends who are cops, but LEOs and the union don’t give a damn about the public. The SYG law came into effect due to the amount of B&Es and home invasions with alot of the vicitims being senior citizens. Haven’t looked into if for some time, but crime in south Florida was bad.
Also, I know you are from Chicago, so I understand the anti-gun bias, but if you ever leave Cooke county you will find cops are members of the NRA and are not “nuts.”
What was your experience in Law Enforcement? Security at the Piggly Wiggly?
There are plenty of Chicago cops who are NRA members. Some of them are nutz. Some of them are responsible individuals. I’m not anti gun. As I stated that battle is over. What I am for is responsible gun ownership. I own four weapons. If I’m not carrying one they are locked up in a weapons safe. Why? Because that’s the responsible thing to do.
As for people who use the acronym “LEO” I find most of them to be assholes.
Are you an asshole?
It’s a rhetorical question. If you don’t understand what that means, it means I already know the answer.
As for “LEO’s” not caring, GFY. Figure out the meaning of that acronym and please stay abroad.
Thank you for the coherent and meaningful reply Spuds. You’re a shining example of Chicago’s finest.. who also have the honor of being the most corrupt.
Good luck to you.
The Chicago Police Department wouldn’t even make the top five of most corrupt police departments in this country.
I’d put my money on New Orleans as the most corrupt. Beyond that the judging is a bit more difficult. Perhaps Dunphy could entertain us with his take. Or not.
Most of the corruption in the Chicago Police Department is petty ass shit. Taking bribes from tow truck drivers etc. In fairness though the Feds indicted two Chicago cops a few weeks back for being involved in the drug trade. We’ve also had more than a few cops tied to the traditional mob and a few tied to some of the gangs.
Thanks for wishing me luck. Considering how pretty I am and that I have the best job in the world I think I’m purdy darn lucky already. Plus I’ve never been to Ohio. That has to count for something!
@ Spuds
“I’d put my money on New Orleans as the most corrupt. Beyond that the judging is a bit more difficult.”
Probably. Chicago averages a public corruption conviction of one a week, the nations highest, but that pertains to all public servants, not just the PD. My bag.
“Thanks for wishing me luck.”
Don’t mention it.
“Considering how pretty I am and that I have the best job in the world I think I’m purdy darn lucky already. Plus I’ve never been to Ohio. That has to count for something!”
Happy for you. Again, good luck too you and yours.
Your answer is exactly what I would have expected from one of “The Godfather’s” finest. Say, Spuds, you’re a Chitown cop–have you drunkenly beaten any 130 lb. barmaids into submission lately? Yes sir, that was just another fine example of how you Chitown boys “protect and serve” the public.
I bet you even wonder why so many people despise the Chicago police. Here’s a hint: go look in the mirror. I pity the poor Chicago populace caught between the Scylla of cops like you and the Charybdis of Chicago’s thugs!
The barmaid was about 110 pounds. Get your facts right.
Now I’ll take the heat for former Officer Abbatte if you’ll take the heat for George Zimmerman and declare him to be an excellent example for proper gun ownership. Deal? I didn’t think so.
I’m responsible for what I do, not for what some drunken dumbass with a shield does.
As for your Godfather comment we call Rahm the Rahmfather. Get it right. Don’t blame me I voted for the Puerto Rican in the race. If you want to use that logic then you are responsible for President Obama because you apparently live in the USA. Hell, you may even have a birth certificate to prove it!
As for why people hate cops it goes with the territory. I’ve found that people on the far left and the far right often share a deep hatred for police and policing in general. If I wanted to be liked I would have been like my dad and been a firefighter. Spud Senior hated fires. I hate crime.
As John Kerry might say with a French accent “Such is ze life”.
You know, I’m sitting here listening to news accounts of the Chief of Police in Sanford, FL stepping down (temporarily) and the Florida State’s Attorney quitting the Trayvon Martin case. Who in the f*ck gives a sh*t about these people leaving their posts, like that is going to make some great difference?
This country suffers from a serious disease, a disease that causes a condition where a young boy can lie in a morgue for several days without his parents or loved ones being contacted (the kid had a cell phone with him when found!); a condition where an innocent young boy, carrying candy and a soft drink is drug tested but his assailant is not; a condition where an obvious murder suspect is let go by local police simply because he claimed self-defense; a condition that causes people, particularly those sworn into office to protect and serve all people, not just a select few, to have such a lack of concern and respect for a victim, a child for crying out loud!!!, his family’s grief, and justice for a community; etc.
Until we treat this hideous disease, everything that happens this point forward won’t mean very much. We’ll just end up back here again. We always do. BTW, that disease I’m referring to is of course RACISM. Actually, this goes well beyond RACISM. This is total sub-human type sh*t. It’s about humanity man and the lack of it, which is becoming more & more commonplace in this f*cked up country, is damn sickening.
Dear “Concerned” (and “fed up”).
There are numerous countries to choose from on this lovely planet. I’m sure you can find one that is a perfect fit for you and your family. I’d be glad to help you choose. Sorry, but I can’t come up with one that has free range unicorns.
The biggest disease we have in this Country is a pandemic of emotionalized, irrational idiots like you. Real life isn’t like CSI; it takes days or weeks to identify bodies, weeks, months, sometimes years to put together enough evidence to seek an indictment, and often months or even years before a matter can be brought to trial. There are far more good reasons for a suspect not to have been arrested than there are bad ones, but Sharpton, Obama, and all the other poverty pimps and race hustlers are counting on there being enough idiots like you that they can orchestrate a lynching. You do know that when somebody works up the mob to demand mob justice, it is called a lynching?
Just a couple of points:
1. If Treyvon was trying to get away, why wasn’t he shot in the back?
2. Why are all the photo’s of Treyvon so angelic and Zimmerman so demonic?
3. Why isn’t the Obama family and Eric Holder participating in the demonstrations? This is the exact mob rule they enjoy and wish to propagate.
This civil unrest is only a rehearsal for November, when they will be back out demanding they want the Obama’s back in the White House.
They’re just demanding their “equal opportunity”, sucka.
Are the photos really unfair?
Here, you do an experiment, you find a white kid walking out of 7/11 with candy and a coke in hand, shoot him dead for it and see if the papers pick a flattering photo of yourself. I bet they won’t.
And see if they make that kid who is guilty of packing pepsi look like a monster, I bet they won’t.
That’s utterly brilliant. Have you ever been nominated for the Einstein Award?
one can NOT trust the media to provide an honest assessment of what happened.
My take is that since Zimmernman did not get charged is that he shot in self defence.
If he was a neighbourhood watch person then he should be following people who act or look suspicious. Otherwise what is the point of neighbourhood watch.
I do not trust the media ..they get the stories wrong even when on the scene.
@57. Concerned
Not an apt handle. If you were seriously concerned, you’d be an activist on behalf of the abject tragedy going on in the Black community. None of which is the fault of any other ethnicity. It’s in Whites, Asians and Hispanics best interest to see Blacks do well. As long as the business of race-baiting hustlers like Sharpton, Jackson and their ilk have sheep like you following blindly, their business will exist. Zimmerman may very well be an idiot and may very well be culpable but this is a seperate issue to the cry wolf syndrome in regards to racism. So far, Sharpton (Recall Tawana Brawley, Crown Heights, etc???) and his followers seem to be the racists. So much for let the healing begin……
The racial slur that Zimmerman is accused of muttering is the word “coon”. Now personally I have never heard anyone in my lifetime use that word. Other racial slurs, yes – but “coon” seems to me to be a term that has long fallen out of usage, especially by someone as young as Zimmerman (28). Of course I could be completely wrong…perhaps it’s a regional thing, I live in Los Angeles, where it’s extremely rare (and shocking) to hear a white person use racial slurs.
For the most part, this thread is pretty disgusting. The DailyKos kids want to believe that conservatives are a bunch of racists, and a lot of you clowns are trying hard to prove them right.
Here is a summary of the arguments in defense of Zimmerman:
1. Trayvon was no saint. There are lots of comments trying to argue that, well, maybe Trayvon really was up to no good. He had been suspended from school. No one has proven that he didn’t a commit crime, right? So maybe Zimmerman was justified in confronting him. Some have said that Martin probably started the actual fight, and there for Zimmerman really was in fear for his life.
The bald racism of these arguments is just sickening. Suggesting that Zimmerman’s actions were justified because we can’t prove that Trayvon was not a criminal is an argument that would make a klansman proud.
2. Zimmerman is being denied due process. He is be tried and convicted by the liberal media.
Actually, Zimmerman is not be tried by the media and the public. Instead, the public and the media are asking for nothing more than a trial. It seems fairly obvious to a lot of people that a crime of some sort was committed. No one was arrested and Zimmerman’s claim of self defense was taken at face value and apparently ended the investigation. I am not opposed to using guns in self-defense, but saying the words “self-defense” can’t be a magic get-out-of-jail free card. Unfortunately, it seems like the police were very willing to believe that black teen-ager was probably a violent criminal.
3. There is no big media spectacle when a black person kills a white person, or another black person. This case is only getting attention because the shooter is white and liberals want to stir up racial animosity.
It is true that shootings happen everyday. It is also true that most killings don’t receive the publicity that this one has. However, the vast majority of the time, the killing is immediately investigated, a suspect is found, arrested and put on trial. That didn’t happen in this case. Was the lack of investigation influenced by the race of the shooter and the victim? I can’t say that with certainty, but I also can’t think of a difference reason.
the vast majority of the time, the killing is immediately investigated, a suspect is found, arrested and put on trial.
You really need to stop watching so much television and confusing it with reality.
the public and the media are asking for nothing more than a trial. It seems fairly obvious to a lot of people that a crime of some sort was committed.
In spite of all your watching of TV crime dramas, you seem to still be unaware that we do not put people on trial just because the media or Al Sharpton (not “the public”) want one.
Thanks…I wish PJMedia had a “thumbs up/thumbs down” tab for comments so it would be easier to determine where most readers stand. I have a feeling that your comment and that of Spuds Lonigan above would get many “thumbs up” from people who simply don’t have the time or desire to write their own comment. And likewise some of the more nasty commentators I suspect would receive many “thumbs down”.
Why do you insist that Zimmerman is white? He is Hispanic. What you don’t believe you can be Hispanic and have a German last name? So I guess Christina Kirchner, President of Argentina, must not be Hispanic.
What we have here is the hierarchy of victims. Apparently African-Americans rank higher than anybody else since a Hispanic shooting a black man turns the shooter into a regular white guy.
Just remember that under the recently discussed “critical race theory” minorities are can’t be guilty of racism. Zimmerman may be guility of number of crimes but he his minority status protects him from charges eith the social crime of Racism.
In April 2011 two white Englishmen ended up in the wrong district in Sarasota Florida. They were brutally shot down by two BLACK youths. Yet no one ever saw any Lame Stream EneMedia clamour for justice nor were any demonstrations held in the USA or indeed in UK. The double standard is here or rather PC, MC Left Wing moonbat Black RACISM is embedded in the US and the world media.
In the USA Blacks comprise just 13% of the population yet they commit 60% of the violent crimes and 50% of the murders.The highest cause of death for a Black under 25 is to be killed by another BLACK. But it only becomes news when they have a Whitey to blame.
Jack: As I am sure you know, the law in most states requires that one must be in fear of death or serious bodily injury, before being justified in the use of deadly force. From the accounts that I have read, there is just not enough publicly available information about the confrontation, for one to make an informed decision about the shooting, one way or the other. Hopefully, the Grand Jury will have all the facts, but I agree that the pressure is immense for them to indict Zimmerman, and let the courts sort it out.
As for Sharpton and his ilk, they never miss an opportunity to use any such incident, for self promotion and race baiting.
The first account I read Zimmerman was called a White Hispanic,whatever this new term is to describe hispanics. The race baiters had to get White in it so they could fan the flames of race baiting. Zimmermans Dad stated they were Hispanic and I suppose he should know. Zimmerman should have been in jail long ago but the irreponsibility of the media to hang this on caucasians is a little much.
The left has zero interest in the facts of this case, or in justice, or in Trayvon Martin. They have three goals here.
1) Encourage blacks to think that they are in mortal danger unless Obama is reelected. It’s a get-out-the-vote operation aimed at blacks.
2) Attack the self-defense and stand-your-ground and castle-doctrine laws which conservatives have passed in many states.
3) Attack the notion of private citizens carrying guns.
What ? Obama is not already saying Zimmerman “acted stupidly” ?
But (the ego demands it) he is going to relate the incident to himself, personally. Just as he brought up his daughters in remarks about abortion and, later, in the Sandra Fluke fiasco.
“My main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know, if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,” Obama said. “All of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves.”
We seem to have rush to judgment here: what would happen were the colors reversed?
The ones who have hopped on the Crazy Train with Uncle Al, might remember that we all live by the good will or our neighbors. If that breaks, I can see people silently saying to others: “Fine, you got trouble call Reverend Al, you live by race baiting you can die by it.”
It is quite simple to destroy sympathy for any cause when you place it ahead of justice or the right.
Shawn Tyson is from Florida but his victims were from United Kingdom.
Also walking in the wrong place at the wrong time, yet no one has claimed they would have looked like their sons. Especially the POTUS who is half white and Irish to boot.
The Odds are Barry with your ethnic background your kid would be a white freckled ginger or look like Michelle maybe even both.
All the facts are not present nor reported on I’m holding my judgement until adfter the trial as I did in Shawn’s case as I did in the trawlawny Brarley stripper/rape case, as I did with…………….
generally a Murderous, racist individual doesn’t call the Cops before he murders someone or a group of someones. unless it involves the religion of peace.
Unless he’s a retard who thinks that all blacks are criminals and that everyone knows and agrees with that.
TO COLUMNIST: Thank you for attempting to report all information surrounding this tragedy as unbiased as possible. It took me forever to find an article that provided all known information surrounding the event.
Zimmerman is NOT WHITE- he is HISPANIC. Look up his picture.
twisted “justice” – if Latino is a killer – he’s white.
When latino is a victim – he is Latino.
All that fact-twisting to prove that whites are not better then …..not whites.
Liberalism is a mental disorder
When Martin turned the tables on Zimmerman during or after the chase, it probably confirmed Zimmerman’s suspicion (in his mind) that the kid was indeed a vagrant. He may have thought Martin was coming back to eliminate him as a witness – or something. It’s a stretch, but if I saw a kid half my size coming at me in similar situation, I might have to assume he enjoyed a hidden advantage that evened the odds. Of course in the kid’s mind, he was the one being chased by a lunatic, and he decided to jump Zimmerman in self defense.
It would be illegal and ill advised for me to chase after a guy for staring at my girlfriend. But if he defended himself by attacking me (while I only pursued him) to the point where my life was theoretically in danger, can I use my weapon to put him down? Even if I arguably created the situation in the first place?
Why would you say it would be illegal to chase after someone staring at your girlfriend? Ill advised? Sure. But illegal?
I think your scenario is plausible and is probably the most tragic of the possibilities, since it has both parties acting in their perceived best interests and one of them winding up dead. Though it relies on serious misjudgments on the part of Martin. If you think you’re being stalked you don’t turn and confront them, you go towards witnesses and light and call the police.
I also wonder why you stop the causal chain at Zimmerman’s decision to follow Martin. Couldn’t you also blame Martin for deciding to walk through the neighborhood? Or the 7-11 for taking just enough time to check out Martin that he was observed by Zimmerman? Or Martin Sr for choosing to live there? If any of a hundred factors were different Martin would still be alive. Why pick the moment Zimmerman stepped out of his car?
After reading the racist crap put out by this Fantom, dude, I had to go take a long shower.
Big surprise that a lot of leftards think right wingers are racists.
‘“My main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know, if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,” Obama said.’
Probably not the smartest thing to say, because it makes it sound like you’re saying that you only really care about people who look like you. And, most people are going to think that probably pertains to skin color, as opposed to having two arms and two legs.
If one of my kids got capped, I have a feeling our alleged president wouldn’t say anything like that, and wouldn’t particularly give a damn, and that’s one of the eight zillion reasons I don’t want this guy within spitting distance of the White House.
“Mr. Surls, do you even understand the concept of murder? I mean, what would you consider this case to be: possibly a case of pre-meditated murder (1st degree) or is it unpremeditated murder (2nd degree)? Does not “murder” always entail an INTENT to kill (whether pre-meditated or not)?”
Yes, I do understand the concept. And, no murder does not always entail an INTENT to kill.
Please don’t let him be convicted. I almost agree with you 100% that no arrest will be made because of the Racist Supremist in this country. I can tell that a police officer from the Sanford Dept wrote this article. He is two detailed oriented about the 911 tapes as if he/she has first hand information over the rest of us. Zimmerman is hidding behind his Jewish name and father. This is sending a message to America that you could kill Blacks and run and hide behind a Jew. If he does not get convicted, we know that the Jews are behind this unjust decision 100%. America is tried of them running this country by controling the media, education, judges, banks,and now open TARGET ON BLACKS. Regardless of what you think, he will be hunted down like the dog he is and he will get what he deserves! Please don’t let him be convicted, he killed in the streets, and he will receive the same.
Please do not let Zimmerman be convicted for the murder of Trayvon Martin. The person who wrote the above article has to be a police officer from the Sanford Police Dept. This person was very detail oriented in explaining the 911 tape in this article. Perhaps this person is correct about Zimmerman not being arrested for this terrible crime. But if he is not, the word is already out that Zimmerman is a Latino, hidding behind a Jewist name and father. If he does not get arrested we will all know that it was the Jews who helped him get off killing a Black Kid. People already know he is hidding in the shadows of the Jews who are in control of the Media, Education, Judges, Banks, etc. and now for Killing Blacks as Open Targets! So PLEASE, I agree with – I hope he doesn’t get arrested. That way he could be killed on the streets in America, where ever he goes, just like he killed Trayvon. Cop or not, you reap what you Sew!
Zimmerman have than criminal record of assualting than DEA agent who was arresting his friend outside than bar, assualting than put than policeman in a hostipal, beating up his girlfreind twice. Zimmerman is useing Stand your ground law to avoid being investrate on his claim of self defence. Standing your ground law are than bad idear in general. The Auther of the Stand your ground law state the law doesnot apply in case like this.Even police officer are question after useing deadly force to see it they act correctly.
“Hey,kid, it’s raining, dark, you have your face hidden, I don’t recognize you, who are you and what are you doing….?” = “Provoke”
I didn’t know it was against the law to walk up to anyone, anywhere and ask them there name, and what they are doing. Nor them saying mind your own business.
Odd how Trayvon didn’t dial 911, at all. Zimmerman did, multiple times.
And, what about the Zimmerman bloody nose, head and grass stained shirt, and the suppose witness to 6’3, 180lbs ( little ) Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, punching Zimmerman in the face?
BTW, I believe it is commonly the law that police can legally stop you and ask you to identify yourself. Although irksome, this seems to be a MAJOR social irritant, a ‘dissing’ if you will, amongst some populations of touchy people usually noted for their unjustified high self esteem in usually in high crime areas.
Zimmerman was attacked. He had to get the dude off him I would have done the same.
What if Whites got as upset and cry for vengence every time a white person gets
killed by a black. We wouldn’t get much rest.
Blacks commit most of the crime in this country and only 15% of the population.
Wake the hell up and keep your kids out of gangs and off the street.
Al Shapshit and jesse jackass want a race war to keep the illegal obammy in office.
This is not what it appears to be. There are many facts, including the statement from an eyewitness stating Martin was beating Zimmerman’s head in. Martin is being cleaned up to suit a political point. He may have not been a bad guy, but he certainly didn’t respond the right way. It is too easy a target not to let it go by for the Left. Anti-gun, anti-stand you ground law, pro black agenda, way too much opportunity to miss out on here. I did a long post on this. As a former LEO I know more about how thing appear than what they truly are. The Sanford PD had the facts, and are now slowly releasing them.
I have many questions, one is what was Martin’s state of mind? From the post.
http://truthandcommonsense.com/2012/03/24/jumping-into-the-zimmerman-shooting-things-are-a-little-hinky-regardless-of-what-jackson-thinks/
… I wonder how much of Martin’s reaction was due to his belief that he was somehow already a victim? I’ve witnessed countless belligerent and violent responses by certain elements in our society totally based on their belief that “you can’t treat ME that way!” that is instilled in them by their culture, by examples, by their leaders- like Jesse Jackson and Sharpton. Trust me on this, that is not outside the possibility here. “Yo mo fo, why the “F” are you following me?! I’ll “F” your ass up!” could have been his mindset. You could argue if Martin made the choice to go “all gangsta’ ” on Zimmerman the people who promoted that as a good way to respond are just as culpable as either party that night. How’s that taste to all of you rappers, race-baiters and political opportunists?
Then there is Obama and his bad habit of inserting himself into situations where the facts aren’t known. Remember his biased comments about the police and his old buddy a couple of years ago? Now he has to stick his nose into again commenting on how his kid would be like Martin. Really? Obama’s son would be comfortable pummeling a guy before asking why he was being followed? That Obama’s son would not be able to recognize, maybe because of his own inflated self worth, that his actions might be suspicious and that the guy following him wasn’t a bad guy? Obama’s son would use fists before words and would seek a confrontation with another man? Wow, chew on that for awhile. …
“Odd how Trayvon didn’t dial 911, at all. Zimmerman did, multiple times.”
That’s another thing Zimmerman ought to be brought up on charges for, and that’s constantly making 911 calls to “report” things that aren’t crimes and aren’t police emergencies.
Same thing for making calls on non-911 lines to report crap like little kids playing in the street, or a black child walking down the street “unsupervised”.
If the cops had cited him for doing that years ago, and told him to back the hell off his Dirty Harry routine, like they should have, Martin might be alive today.
If Martin wasn’t dead he could probably go after Zimmerman for filing a false police report (calling 911 and claiming Martin was on drugs, without having any evidence whatsoever to back up the accusation). He could also probably sue Zimmerman for defamation for saying that to the police, and I think he’d have a pretty good case.
Unfortunately, dead people can’t sue for defamation.
way over, jumping the gun, bad as any itchy-fingered hothead yourself. cool it.
No, shooting an unarmed 17 year old kid who wasn’t doing anything wrong (as far as we can tell) is way over the top.
Bitching about the crackpot who did it, and a bunch of incompetent cops who blew it off, ain’t over the top.
1: No one knows if he was unarmed.
2: Boys his age in some places in America and elsewhere have killed before. Legally he’s a kid but functionally he is well able to carry out violence.
“1: No one knows if he was unarmed.”
Yeah, I’m sure the kid was packing a couple of Uzis, that mysteriously vanished into thin air, right before the cops showed up.
You people (Zimmerman defenders) are beyond belief.
Having a rational discussion with these yahoos is obviously impossible. They are fun to screw with though.
Lack of a gun does not mean lack of a weapon. A knife, stick, or brick is deadly enough to warrant force if the threat was immediate enough.
And considering injuries were present on Zimmerman Martin was not as defensless as some would like to have people believe.
Zimmerman may well turn out to be guilty and if so he should rot in prison.
But there is nothing about the situation that immediatly makes one or the other the de facto innocent party.
That’s the Illiberals raison-d’etre. ‘Fun to screw with’.
To have a lucid, adult-like discussion whereas an accord or understanding can be reached is foreign/ Alien to an Illiberal.
Presently it’s the Trayvon Martin case whereas people like myself wish to discuss FACTS, due process of the law and avoid the juvenile nature of fabrication and emotional-laden nonsense.
Unfortunately it’s a pipe dream when TRYING to begin or continue an involved discussion.. heck even shooting the breeze with an Illiberal.
For the Illiberal’s end game is having a go-nowhere, moronic last word or fictional self-righteousness be their muse. Motivator.
The Illiberal isn’t seeking truth in this case but a sense of frightening, ‘justice’.
The Illiberal mantra is providing ad hominem when threatened or bettered intellectually. THEN call the opposing side(s) ‘stupid’.
The irony’s too thick to comment any further.
America’s One-Sided Race Card
Careful not to pull a boner as he did when he condemned Cambridge cop Joe Crowley in 2009 without a scintilla of evidence, President Barack Hussein Obama has weighed in on the tragic Sanford, Florida killing of 17 year old Trayvon Martin by neighborhood watch volunteer, George Zimmerman.
The president, playing the race card for his black base as he did in the Cambridge affair, said, “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon” and demanded exhaustive Sanford, Florida, and federal investigations into the case.
He declared that “some soul searching” was needed throughout the country but made no reference to why the president of the United States is involving himself in a local matter. As with Sandra Fluke and the female vote, Obama figured he could make points with his African-American constituency by telling them what his son would look like.
Despite the fact that details are still evolving on the incident, America’s leftists quickly and mindlessly sprang to a verdict of racially-inspired murder and blamed everyone from Zimmerman, who reportedly has a number of African-Americans and Latinos in his family, to Rush Limbaugh, Jeb Bush, Rick Santorum, Newt Gingrich, George Romney, and virtually every white person in America.
At least they didn’t blame Sandra Fluke.
Professional race-mongers Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton also galloped to the Sunshine State to spread their hateful bile and called for revenge and retribution. It wasn’t clear whom they blamed but presumably it was repressive and murderous white society as well as Zimmerman.
The racist New Black Panther Party didn’t want to be left out and so circulated a poster reading, “Murdered in Cold Blood, Child Killer of Trayvon Martin, WANTED DEAD or ALIVE.”
Accused gunman Zimmerman hasn’t been arrested due to lack of concrete evidence in the case and his claim of killing Martin in self-defense after being attacked, a claim substantiated by witnesses, and various Sanford officials have stepped aside to insure a fair and just inquiry.
No one would question the necessity of a full and thorough investigation into Martin’s death, except perhaps for Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the New Black Panther Party and other racists who have rushed to judgment in order to stir the racial pot, create discord, garner donations, and grab headlines.
There may be a national need for Obama’s “soul searching” just as there was a need for a “new gentility” as preached by the president following the Tucson shooting of Rep. Gabby Giffords and which never came to fruition thanks to relentless incivility from liberals.
However, there’s an equally-pressing necessity for objective crime reporting by the mainstream media with respect to black crime in America, a crying need that has frequently been addressed on this blogsite and admitted by some members of the MSM.
See “More Riotous Times in Obamaland,” http://bit.ly/p9gIJM.
The rabble-rousing Farrakhan threatened violent retaliation . . .
(Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=18759.)
If Misters Jackson and Sharpton, inflame an already incendiary situation, by their words and actions, and that leads to violence and more death, then they should be held accountable under the law, for inciting that violence.
It’s kind of hard to have a discussion about facts with people who are claiming that no one knows whether Trayvon Martin was armed or unarmed.
That pretty much kills the fact discussion, and then we move on into the fairy tale discussion.
Might as well argue about whether or not he’s really dead.
Personally, I’d rather just make fun of clowns who are asserting stuff that’s obviously patent nonsense, than waste a whole lot of time arguing “facts” with doofuses.
I think that’s a more productive use of my time and energy.
Of course, you never know for absolute sure. Maybe tomorrow the cops will come clean and reveal that Trayvon Martin had an M60 machine gun tucked into his pants, and that they hid it to make George Zimmerman look bad.
Kinda doubt it, though.
“It’s kind of hard to have a discussion about facts with people who are claiming that no one knows whether Trayvon Martin was armed or unarmed.”
And yet since Zimmerman called it self-defense the weapon situation matters to the case.
“That pretty much kills the fact discussion, and then we move on into the fairy tale discussion.
Might as well argue about whether or not he’s really dead.”
No it doesn’t. Self-defense has defined methods and reasoning. If Martin had a weapon then the reasoning for self-defense is there.
And if he was unarmed the opposite is true.
“Personally, I’d rather just make fun of clowns who are asserting stuff that’s obviously patent nonsense, than waste a whole lot of time arguing “facts” with doofuses.”
Then start by looking in the mirror buddy because your willingness to attempt to marginalize anothers comments without factually refuting them show that you have no counterargument.
“I think that’s a more productive use of my time and energy.”
You felt like it was productive when you thought you were winning the discussion.
So let’s be clear. You are withdrawing from the discussion and aknowledge tha my points are all valid in the absence of any other information?
Zimmerman obviously doesn’t have the self-control to carry a gun, that was the first mistake of the local constabulary. There is no need for a neighborhood watchman to have more than a night-stick and a phone to call police. Giving a “not-too-bright” person a gun is the Police Dept’s fault. The Dept’s lack of a follow-up investigation puts a bad light on them, because Zimmerman is lying.
There is no defined “load out” for a watchman and more importantly in a land of firearms the stick is the loser.
The Trayvon Martin Bonfire
Themes of Tom Wolfe’s blockbuster 1987 novel, The Bonfire of the Vanities, are being played out in real time in Sanford, Florida with the tragic death of Trayvon Martin serving as background and inspiration.
In Bonfire, white bond-trading “Master of the Universe” Sherman McCoy is falsely confused of killing a poor, black Bronx youth in a hit-and-run accident.
McCoy is arrested, hounded by the media, crooked politicians, and African-American activists into bankruptcy. He loses his family and contemplates suicide, not because of anything he actually did but because of what may best be described as a bizarre societal frenzy.
Henry Lamb, the dead victim in Bonfires, becomes the central character in a circus of political and racial dysfunction; Trayvon Martin has become the center of shameful exploitation of a young man’s unfortunate death.
Characterized by the MSM and his other supporters as an innocent, high school honors student who wouldn’t hurt a fly even though his death occurred late at night when he and a friend approached McCoy’s vehicle on a dark Bronx street in what most people would regard a threatening fashion, Lamb is all but canonized in the book as Martin has been in real life.
Neither was a saint anymore than Sherman McCoy or George Zimmerman were saintly.
Certainly, few comparisons can be drawn between the cocksure millionaire McCoy and Zimmerman, except for the comparably baseless campaign of villification by the media and professional black exploiters.
Based on available evidence and eyewitnesses, twenty-eight year old, half-Latino, Neighborhood Watch captain, George Zimmerman, is being unjustly crucified.
He has been painted as a murderer. The New Black Panther Party has posted “Wanted Dead or Alive” signs in Sanford. Spike Lee has tweeted his home address and he has been forced to go into hiding. The usual provocateurs have descended on Sanford to instigate hatred and discord.
Adding a farcical note, the president of the United States leapt into the fray. Barack Hussein Obama tends to do that when he scents a political advantage as he did in the Rush Limbaugh-Sandra Fluke matter. Obama ostensibly wanted to insure a fair and just investigation into Martin’s death, implying that local and state authorities would have whitewashed the incident had he not intervened.
Adding an almost comic touch to the month-old tragedy, Trayvon’s grieving mother laid out $650 to trademark “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” etc. not, mind you, so she could cash in on her son’s death. (http://bit.ly/GRXC29)
Aside from turning a tragedy into a travesty, Trayvon Martin’s shooting has evolved into yet another example of African-Americans turning a regrettable incident into a world-class debacle.
Much like Wolfe’s novel concerning Sherman McCoy and Henry Lamb, local and national media depicted Trayvon Martin as an innocent young man who was merely carrying a package of Skittles and a can of iced tea home to a younger sibling when he was senselessly accosted, followed, and shot by a trigger-happy Zimmerman.
However, just as Lamb turned out to be anything but an innocent victim in Bonfires, apparently Martin was not exactly what the racially-conscious, politically correct media presented him to be. . . (Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=19151.)