And who is the winner.

Totalitarian countries where dissent is stifled. Countries like China, who are focusing all their efforts on building their country, saving their money, and working hard to build an economy that will soon eclipse our own. There is no debate. Only a single minded effort to catapult China into the future.

Every power rises and falls. Perhaps we are now watching our Country slide into obscurity and China rise to take our place.

Time to learn Chinese?

Well, not really. You’ll note that there’s as much tax relief in that plan as there is taxation. You’ll note it, that is, when you actually read it again for comprehension rather than ridicule.

In fact, I’m taking a cue from the federal government on this, and offering something they can get behind (i.e., taxes). The feds – especially during the recent 75-year slide into socialism – have relied upon taxation as pretty much the answer to everything. This is understandable, since it’s one of the few enumerated powers government has. You want “social justice”? Take that tax revenue and go nuts – set up a network of government-funded “free” health care clinics. Whatever. As long as the taxes are being derived from activities that promote negative economic outcomes, that should be perfectly acceptable to everyone.

Since the government is predisposed to taxation, it should be used in such a way that it promotes free markets and lowered cost to the consumer / taxpayer / People. Despite the fact that it’s the core of the problem, it’s not legal – or even morally justifiable, really – to “outlaw” comprehensive health insurance. Hell, we can’t even convince the government to undo the Ponzi scheme they’ve created out of Social Security. So the best way to deal with it is to tax it out of existence and allow the health care market to seek its own equilibrium like all other markets where routine costs-of-living expenses are relatively affordable.

I’m sure you agree.

- I don’t agree with the thinking behind it. It eliminates health insurance.
Disingenuous, at best. You apparently don’t want to understand the difference between catastrophic (see above) and routine health care. The latter is a standard cost of living and therefore presents no “risk” – i.e., insurance is the wrong way to pay for it. Because we misuse insurance to do so, we are literally paying the price in the form of skyrocketing costs. NO OTHER MARKET experiences this problem because in NO OTHER MARKET do we misuse group insurance to pay for a routine cost of living.

Your statement here belies everything else you’ve pretended to support. It demonstrates that you are clearly in favor of perpetuating the greedy capitalist insurance company monopoly that now controls all prices for health care, handles virtually all transactions (read: cash flow) for health care and controls virtually all access to health care.

- This makes co-insurance payments pretty expensive.
Wrong. It eliminates co-pays. Co-pays are part of what encourages skyrocketing costs. Through the use of co-pays, health care consumers are completely disassociated from the actual cost of the care they receive. In this way they are rendered powerless to exert any downward pressure on prices (go find an Econ 101 textbook if you don’t get this). The size of the co-pay is not related in any way to the actual cost and, therefore, lulls the consumer into a false state of belief that the cost of their care is “stable” when it’s not.

- Not affordable to retired people.
Non sequitur. Co-pays will be eliminated under this scenario.

- It might work.
Correction: it has worked.

- This doesn’t ring true to me because you can be sick now, then you can be healthy, sick again and healthy again. That’ how insurance works.
Wrong. Insurance is a tool for mitigating financial risk. Even “being sick” is not a reason to use insurance. Everyone gets “sick” at one time or another in ways that don’t involve financial ruin. These are the situations people USED TO save for. With the “spend-everything-while-you-can” mentality, promoted by the moral adolescents who see no reason to save for the future, this type of behavior has disappeared.

Our health care system is broken because we misuse insurance as a proxy for socialism – by spreading the costs around, we spread the wealth around. Those who are chronically ill, and who therefore should be paying high costs through high-deductible policies, or those who don’t take care of their own health, and who therefore are not deserving of my contributions, are rewarded under this system. This doesn’t ring true to you because of your adolescent notions of “social justice” and the “greater good”, which require coercion to be made manifest and which always result in failure over the long term. See also: Soviet Union, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, Communist Cambodia, et al.

- The problem here is that routine care can be very expensive…
No. The problem here is that YOU insist on purposely missing the point. That is that the cost of routine care has been highly inflated and needs to be brought back into equilibrium with other routine costs of living. That will ONLY ever happen in one of two ways: either the market is allowed to correct itself, through the elimination of the insurance company monopoly and the restoration of a direct economic relationship between health provider and consumer, or the government imposes wage and price controls. Those are your options.

You can’t just go on blindly complaining about care being “very expensive” and pretending there’s nothing you can do about it – that’s the fundamental falsehood on which this entire, meaningless health care “debate” is founded. Get the costs under control FIRST. THEN let’s see where we are, and whether or not an unconstitutional “public option” is even needed. Costs are skyrocketing because there’s no pressure keeping them down. None. Zero. And it’s not a question of whether you believe that, or whether you can be convinced of it contrary to your socialist indoctrination. It is mathematically predicted, verifiable, observable reality.

- It’s a moral responsibility of all brilliant minds to define and set forth something that will work for everyone. Period.
An absolutely meaningless, non-responsive statement. And here I thought you were serious about considering a realistic approach to resolving this problem. LOL!!!!

All socialist totalitarian ideas! You don’t love this country. You love Stalin and Hitler. They killed a hundred million people and now you want to do the same thing with your Marxist manipulations.

“eliminates the financial risk posed by catastrophic illness or injury”

Nanny stater! Whatever happened to pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? If you’re alive you have risks. DUH! Don’t look to somebody else to guarantee you anything in life. Or maybe your mommy doesn’t talk about that with you.

“Tax all employer contributions to a comprehensive plan as income to the individual”

Tax, tax, tax, that’s your answer to everything. Hey, ever hear of a little something called a TEA PARTY. Didn’t think so. Bolshevik.

“”Withdrawals for expenses other than health care, or ER services for non-emergent care incur taxation at standard payroll rates”

What, more taxes? That’s blatantly unConsitutional, but you wouldn’t know that because you were educated in American public school system, right? That’s why I home school my kids, so they won’t grow yup to be appartch . . . apparatck . . . leftists like you!

“put the comprehensive insurance companies completely out of business”

Long live the free market, but you don’t get that. You’d rather put companies out of business. Hey, at least that way you don’t have to regulate their pay. This kind of intrusive anti-capitalism is destroying the very passions of our founding fathers. But do you care or know that? No. You’re too busy eating Cheetos and wiping your butt with your hand. How’s the lighting in that basement?

Do us all a favor and keep your radical socialism to yourself. You’re not welcome here, troll.

READ THE BILL! NO DEATH SQUADS! KEEP GOVERNMENT AWAY FROM MEDICARE!

Oh, and Ted Kennedy was fat.

@2. vivo: – Why not use a form of FEHBP?

“Phase I – Encourage use of Low-Premium, High-Deductible Catastrophic Health Insurance:”

Looks like a good idea, but hope that the high deductibles are not too high.

“Phase II – Eliminate Tax Advantages of Employee Comprehensive Coverage:”

I don’t agree with the thinking behind it. It eliminates health insurance.

“Phase III – Changes in Provider Income Taxation:”

This makes co-insurance payments pretty expensive. Not affordable to retired people.

“Phase IV – Encourage Direct-Pay, Health Clinic Use, Health Savings Accounts:”

This makes sense.

“Phase V – Tort Reform:”

It might work.

“By misusing insurance, we reward the sick and penalize the healthy.”

This doesn’t ring true to me because you can be sick now, then you can be healthy, sick again and healthy again. That’ how insurance works.

“Catastrophic plans would prevent both the elderly AND the unhealthy from going broken on really costly care, and the routine care would be just another cost of living.”

The problem here is that routine care can be very expensive and the elderly cannot afford, so they can easily fall into catastrophic situations.

“This administration has NO FRAKKING CLUE what it’s doing.”

It’s a moral responsibility of all brilliant minds to define and set forth something that will work for everyone. Period.

Thanks for your answer.

jharp: Obama says he’s got ocean front property in Arizona for sale….

Bingo, and that could be repeated about any one of his bills. He simply has his own agenda and he doesn’t have the slightest concern about what the taxpaying American wants. It’s no wonder the elites and the dependents are so on board with the direction he wants to take our country. I don’t think he cares about a 2nd term as long as he can marginalize the right and alter the political landscape of this country to fit his socialist model.by then it’s a moot point and he figures he’ll always have a seat at the table.

Keep pushing America. Attend every town hall you can, attend all your local teaparty gatherings and write your legislators. This is a battle about our constitution which truely hangs in the balance. In addition, please do some research about obama’s unprecedented number of czars he’s appointed and look at their pasts. Keep pushing.

Frankly, I do not think jharp, MoHo etc are liberals, they are too far off base, and say some really dumb stuff. Maybe they are here just to stir the pot and watch for reactions. We quit reading their posts a couple of weeks ago, but you guys just keep on walking through troll poop.

Can’t you just see them , him?, jumping up and down in front of their computer???? hahhahahaha

There are a couple of us that post together, and we all think the same thing. They (he)lay out troll poop, and watch everyone step in it…and are at home laughing at the reactions. By acting as liberals, they are big fish in a little pond. On a liberal post they would be the opposite and have no fun.

BTW, we went to a town hall meeting last night. It was spirited. A good crowd and good information. The rep was articulate. Will not vote for the health plan. But as he said, that does not mean it is all going to go away quietly not to heard from again. Expect Obama to keep pushing.

Insurances are out to make a profit..it’s capitalism…

Change what the cost of testing, RX’s, treatments , malpractice for dr’s are because of frivilous crap and jury awards and we might bring some of the medical costs in the US under control. the insurance’s are attacked because Obama wants them out of business and you on state assitance!!!

you don’t see Obama and your elected officials rushing to get on the health plan do you????? Because it stinks and they need a scapegoat!!!!!

Insurance companies serve them well and we like good followers, lay the blame at the feet of the insurance companies because BO says we should!!!
PUKE!!!

American’s are not dumb people!! Obama is trying to make us all dependent on the government!!!! wake up!! don’t blame the insurance companies!!