Town Halls Rock the U.S.: Obama, Are You Listening?
The month of August has been packed with American civic engagement, as citizens across the country have participated in lively debates and issue-oriented initiatives. Most notably, President Barack Obama’s administration and congressional Democrats have been confronted on a daily basis by millions of Americans questioning their proposed solutions to health care reform as outlined in the 1,017 pages of HR 3200. While the forums have ranged from town halls and petitions to rallies and blogs, there is one common thread: in return for their involvement, the American people are being verbally pillaged by the government — the very same people that are intent on controlling our fate through medical treatment decisions. When not satisfied with the highly orchestrated and suppressive health care town halls being hosted by President Obama and the congressmen home for the August recess, Americans are taking the initiative to gather and increase the strength of their individual voices and, in doing so, advance a unified message.
As evidenced on Saturday, August 15, at America’s Health Care Town Hall in Atlanta’s Centennial Olympic Park, the number of Americans — Republicans, Democrats, and independents — against ObamaCare is growing. More than twenty national organizations — representing more than 4.5 million members nationwide dedicated to free market, patient-centered health care reform — came together with small business owners to discuss positive health care reform and call for the defeat of the liberal Democrats’ health care reform plans. With 12,500 people in attendance, the event effectively captured the size, diversity, and strength of opposition to the Democrats’ health care reform bill.
Georgia resident Mark Misenheimer attended the town hall with his teenage son — and not because he was driven or bused in by some PAC or union, as Democrats have alleged time and again about the individuals involved. For Misenheimer, this was the very first time in his life that a certain sense of necessity and responsibility had inspired him to take action and send a message to Washington: enough is enough. Facing a Chicago-style political machine and what often appears as an insurmountable challenge, Misenheimer and other Americans just like him around the country have stepped up to the plate to stop the exportation of seriously damaging and irreversible legislation coming out of Washington. Despite the baseless and inaccurate accusations and characterizations of the bill’s opponents by the White House and Democrats at every level, Misenheimer describes with a great sense of hope and resolution the seriousness of this debate and the importance of being able to communicate it effectively to his son and community. “It’s hard to communicate it without instilling fear, so you do it softly,” he said. “The Bible shares that leaders are installed by God’s will, sometimes to heal and sometimes to punish, and unless we can stand up and share truth, we will get more of what the people have voted for.”
Is this the “hope” and “change” people voted for last November? This very question and the general debate over health care have exhumed not only the obsession that Democrats have with socialism, but also exposed the left’s flirtation with introducing anti-capitalist public policy in America.
BHO has done the right a real favor by going so hard for healthcare “reform”. He’s allowed us to coalesce around some basic free-market reforms. McCain had some good ideas(too bad he lacked other good ones) about healthcare, but got zero traction. Those ideas(individual tax deduction vs business, buying insurance across state lines, tort reform, etc.) are now gaining serious ground with the right. When we regain power, we will have momentum on this issue. If the Republicans can pull their heads out, they could score big for freedom.
the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP)—has been attracting a great deal of attention recently. Using the FEHBP as the foundation for health care reform would be compatible with the outline of reform now being prepared by the leadership in both houses of Congress.
This growing interest is hardly surprising. The FEHBP and Medicare both are large programs run by the federal government, but the similarity ends there.
The FEHBP is not experiencing the severe financial problems faced by Medicare. It is run by a very small bureaucracy that, unlike Medicare’s, does not try to set prices for doctors and hospitals.
It offers choices of modern benefits and private plans to federal retirees (and active workers) that are unavailable in Medicare.
It provides comprehensive information to enrollees.
And it uses a completely different payment system that blends a formula with negotiations to achieve a remarkable level of cost control while constantly improving benefits and enjoying wide popularity.
Why not use a form of FEHBP?
I wonder what very powerful force held off the vetting of the President until the executive order # 13489. There is much more to all of this than meets the eye.
I went to the Moran (D-Virginia 8th) townhall last night…hoo wee!
The organizers tried their level best to pack the audience with pro-socialist-healthcare attendees (including the prerequisite union beefcakes…who were as an exception civil) and mass-produced pro-socialist-healthcare posters.
The crowd nevertheless was 50/50.
Moran was a deer-in-the-headlights from the beginning. I guess that’s why he brought Howard Dean to “answer” (read: avoid) almost all the questions.
Look for – ahem – “change” in 2010.
Godspeed Ted Kennedy. Even though I think you were a deranged moonbat…. Rest in Peace.
Ok. Now for more hatespeech from jharp.
One small additional note to my earlier post:
With morons like the Obamacare supporters who attended last night (AKA “with friends like these…”), it is no wonder that there is not only a problem “selling” the defective legislation, but also that there is suchan “awakening giant” in the Americans against Obamacare. To whit:
Last night, the O-bots had a rallying-good-time with all sorts of cheers, some expected (“yes we can”…from the Campaign That Refuses To Die…) and some not.
AS TO THE LATTER…all of a sudden, the crowd started chanting, “we want healthcare! We want healthcare!”
WELL, harumpf.
We responded as only a living-grey-matter-citizen could, “Go buy some!”
It sort of “woke up” alot of the folks in the audience. And, for some curious reason, the O-bots immediately halted their nonsense.
heh.
It’s always enlightening when liberal politicians support where the Constitution states it’s within their power to provide health care. Truly, the common citizen knows more about this document than the average member of Congress. And since when is banning signs and cameras acceptable under the bill of rights?
Since it’s relevant here as well as where first posted at PJM, I give you my solution for universal health insurance/care:
I have an idea: Since the liberals/leftists want to have a socialized, universal health care system, why don’t they organize a giant trust with which needy people can get insurance for themselves free of charge? Donations to the trust could be made and those donations would be tax deductible. Folks needing insurance could apply and demonstrate their financial neediness to get help. It would keep government out of the whole healthcare issue. They could name this new, private entity “Socialized Health Insurance Trust”, or “SHIT” for short. With a little help from “SHIT” people with preexisting conditions such as irresponsibility, laziness, stupidity, or drug addiction could be given all the healthcare they need. And it wouldn’t be a huge additional burden on the deficit. All it would take is the do-gooders putting their money where their mouths are.
But we all know that the leftists wouldn’t donate nearly enough to the trust to support the lazy and shiftless. I suppose, in that instance, that people who applied for the free help would be “SHIT out of luck.”
regards
Ed Wallis, I too was at the Reston town hall meeting.
The 1st 30 minutes was Moran and Dean inflating their already bloviate egos.
Then the questions ‘answered’ were from selected emails to Moran and Dean’s offices. What a joke..
How about the incident Dean asking the audience if they’d like to vote to remove an audience member who vehemently opposed the reform. What a classy guy..
I echo your sentiment. Moran had the deer in the headlights look the whole evening.
In less than 4 months, the Government’s invaded the auto industry, Wall Street, home loan industry, the banks, et al. Apparently those for Government controlled ‘health care’ are impressed by the Government’s handling in the DMV, public education, dated airline industry.. on and on.
Not to mention news saying by the end of the decade, if including this health care crapola, the national debt will be ~ $9 trillion whereas the country loaning us the money will no longer invest on a bad thing.
Is this Obama’s debt yet..!?
I was at a town hall last night, too. There were several of my people there, you know, patriots. Apparently fresh from the Glenn Beck Cracker Tour, they did their best to exercise their first amendment rights by yelling “No government healthcare! No government healthcare!” Not willing to let the energy rely on mere rhetoric, I exhorted my brothers and sisters to take real action . . . “That’s right! No government healthcare! Everybody, give me your Medicare cards! Throw them in a pile right here on the floor! We’re gonna have ourselves a bonfire of patriotism! Come on now! I’ll start” And so I threw my Medicare card on the floor. But nobody else did. I was kind of disappointed. I mean. That’s what we want, right? Government out of our lives. I mean, like George Wallis up there said, if we want healthcare, we can “go buy some.” Oh well, I hear John Boehner is beginning to consider setting a timetable to determine the committee schedule for setting up the advance work for his town hall meeting here in Ohio. That’ll give me a chance to rally the “real Americans” to take “real action” this time and not come off like a bunch of misguided, misinformed confusionaries.
The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise.
How can Obama listen to the people at the townhall meetings when he’s got Nancy Pelosi’s finger in one of his ears and Rahm’s finger in the other?
Re #5 Conservative1: LOL! Is there anything better than an AM tirade by a foaming liberal?
Re #6 Ed Wallis: “Go buy some!” PRICELESS! Funny how providing for oneself never occurs to a liberal isn’t it? “we want healthcare” translates to “give me a handout, give me a handout”
the news states that the Dems have 1000+ town hall meetings planned. Should be interesting to see the union thugs, planted chanters, crying women all in one place. Gonna be so many new welfare babies born named Obama..how about the Hussein part???
What they are really saying is “yes we can…get you to pay for everything we want”….
#3 you are totally right!!
The Manchurian Candidate..and this is not a movie…
the whole thing is totally disgusting.
“‘Go buy some!’”
How wonderfully simple and on point. Would have been something worth seeing.
14 kevin S . . .
absolutely. Here’s an idea. Let’s remove the burden of healthcare from American companies. That should free up plenty of money for job creation. And let’s trash Medicare and Medicaid, they’re just unfunded entitlement programs. That way, every American can be totally on their own. Then can choose to buy health insurance or not. If not and they get sick, they can pay for their treatment. Simple. Now, that Band Aid is gonna cost you $18, and that trip to the ER because you felt dizzy and short of breath is gonna cost about $4,200, even though it was nothing more than a little gas. But what’s money matter where our freedom is concerned?
President Obama does not want to listen when he already made up his mind in an attempt to be America’s first dictator. After the 2010 blow back, I fully expect Obama to be more angry, more relentless in his Communist pursuit to transform America into a Banana Republic. He will fail.
For Misenheimer, this was the very first time in his life that a certain sense of necessity and responsibility had inspired him to take action and send a message to Washington: enough is enough.
Then Misenheimer may be dumb enough to be a regular writer at Pajamas Media.
“He that lives upon hope will die fasting.” Benjamin Franklin
“He that lives upon Hope and Change (and National Health Care) will die slowly.” The Toad
I don’t take Medicaid or Medicare. At this point in life I don’t need to. I make a promise that I never will. Now and Then, has it occurred to you that they never threw those cards down because they never had them in the first place? Oh no, that can’t be right. Everyone lubs the gubernment.
“But what’s money matter where our freedom is concerned?”
EXACTLY! Wow, a broken clock is correct now and then. Wasn’t it the Libs who were chanting something about those who choose security don’t deserve freedom a few years ago? You know, the same ones that were saying that protest was patriotic?
By the way, in answer to Now and Then I believe prices will go down because there will be honest competition. When no one can afford something, then someone will always sell at a lower rate to get the business of those who want and need. The fewer people who can afford a product means the less money the retailer can earn. Someone will always fill a niche when the market isn’t rigged. Not that an avoid Communist The One supporter would understand basic economics.
Our opponents are funded by our tax money. That has got to end.
We need a full court press in 2010. I live in Cal 14th district the dem gets 70% of the vote each time. But i will volunteer to work against her. We need to make the fight for every seat.
NO SAFE SEATS FOR LYING DEMOCRATS!
19. Jettboy:
“I don’t take Medicaid or Medicare. At this point in life I don’t need to. I make a promise that I never will”
And your parents? I think you should pay for their healthcare and get the government out of their lives. Now that’s a promise that requires immediate action and accountability – not a strength of the birther/deather crowd.
20. Jettboy:
“By the way, in answer to Now and Then I believe prices will go down because there will be honest competition. ”
So, what has prevented honest competition up to this point? Your free market has reigned for decades, hell we even subsidize insurance companies, and yet we hear today that healthcare costs are expected to rise 10.2% in the next year.
Come on, dazzle us with your understanding of basic economics.
Ah, the fabled “grass roots”, beloved by liberals, honored in hosanna’s to the heavens, it’s praises continuously glued to the lips of progressives [ those people who seek to emulate the policies of the ancient pharaohs], those “roots’ that must be inspired, that must offer their support to that breed of genius known as the Democratic Strategist [ a person who would be recognized as insane or a moron if the NY Times didn't say otherwise.], who must continually be roused and courted in support of the Party and it’s candidates, some of whom are rumored to view Americans as humans, what happened?
Overnight they have become racist, dangerous, gun toting, screaming cretins, mean enough to actually yell at our natural leaders, to, do you believe it, question them!
Can’t we just bring back that docile “grass roots”, the one so respected and desired when they swallowed all the crap they were fed?
Come on Jettboy, let’s hear your response to 22.
“And your parents? I think you should pay for their healthcare and get the government out of their lives”
How they live their lives is their choice and not mine at the moment. To be honest, I don’t even know if they have medicade and medicare. Believe it or not they are free to do what they want. If they ask for help? Sure, I’ll help. They haven’t yet.
From HR-3200 [Page 143]
SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
===================================================
Does that mean that any alien on a valid visa is entitled to healthcare/insurance at our expense?
26 Jettboy
So they’re free to choose? If they prefer to have government healthcare rather than private health insurance, you’re fine with that. See, it’s not hard to be right. You just have to be liberal.
“the news states that the Dems have 1000+ town hall meetings planned. Should be interesting to see the union thugs, planted chanters, crying women”
You left out the planted fake “doctors.”
29. Bohemond:
Yeah, they’re real Americans when you agree with them. They’re plants when you disagree with them. How Foxian of you. Now repeat after me (and Dick) . . . “Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.”
Even if the asshats in the white house aren’t listening, that doesn’t mean everyone else isn’t.
On February 15, 2003, a coordinated day of protests across the world was held against the imminent invasion of Iraq. Millions of people protested in approximately 800 cities around the world. According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.
In New York alone, between 300,000 and 400,000 protestors attended.
At a demonstration in Los Angeles, California 50,000 (to 60,000 (GLW estimate) protesters marched down Hollywood Boulevard filling it for four blocks.
And how did Bush respond?
Bush did not simply ignore the millions of Americans who did not want war, he had his cronies like Karl Rove, Fox News and Repubicans in congress create talking points that those who oppose the war are traitors and lunatics.
Of course, six years later, those “loons” and “traitors” have been throughoughly vindicated as the entire war has been exposed as a horrific sham – the intelligence was faulty, senior Bush admin officials lied, there never were any WMDs, Bush’s buddies at Blackwater were disgraced for killing civilians indiscriminantly, Rumsfeld was fired and disgraced, Cheney has been disgraced for authorizing illegal torture, the Iraqis now hate us, the country is in shambles, and all we have to show for the war is trillions of dollars of debt and our creation of a new breeding ground for terror in Iraq.
So, during a Republican administration, millions marched, the president didn’t listen, and Republicans basically responded “well, he’s right to ignore them, because they’re being unpatriotic.”
Nine years later, a few thousand folks get together at town hall meetings and scattered protests, and are just shocked, shocked that after seven months of calling the president a Socialist/Marxist/Fascist, he’s not listening to them!
So here’s my question, and it’s a two-parter:
Were you people just asleep the last administration the president and the media basically ignored huge throngs of protestors; i.e., did you just fail to grasp that the moral of this story is that president is not compelled to listen to you?
Or are you just sycophantic slaves to your party that automatically and thoughtlessly classify right wing protest as patriotic, and left wing protest as traitorous? Four legs good, two legs bad?
My parents knew a great secret: if you don’t die, you get older. If you get older, your health deteriorates. If your health deteriorates, you have higher health costs.
They were both schoolteachers, but still saved and invested quite a bit of money. Dad is gone now, but I recall him talking about planning for the future, and being able to care for one’s self, not being a burden. Mom has enough money to pay all her expenses, including household help, doctor visits, etc.
That makes sense to me. So even though I will probably inherit a nice little chunk, we save too, because something drastically expensive could happen to Mom, and you never know. That means we try to be thrifty, avoid debt, live below our income, stuff like that. Not complex, really. Like Jettboy, if Mom needs help, we will help, but she hasn’t.
I’ve noticed that a constant theme of the left is that conservatives should give up Medicare support and Social Security payments. Well, I think it’s a grand idea, and conservatives should do it. There is one precondition though, which I am sure the liberals would agree with. If a man withdraws from SS or Medicare, the federal government must return all the money it collected from him through the Social Security and Medicare taxes – with interest. There is another fine idea – only conservatives should be allowed to withdraw from Social Security and Medicare.
Hey, liberals (you know who I am talking to) – do you agree with this?
34. Hyphenated American: “I’ve noticed that a constant theme of the left is that conservatives should give up Medicare support and Social Security payments. Well, I think it’s a grand idea, and conservatives should do it. There is one precondition though, which I am sure the liberals would agree with. If a man withdraws from SS or Medicare, the federal government must return all the money it collected from him through the Social Security and Medicare taxes – with interest. There is another fine idea – only conservatives should be allowed to withdraw from Social Security and Medicare.
Hey, liberals (you know who I am talking to) – do you agree with this?”
Your plan sucks. Why? Because most of the Medicare money that conservative southern/midwestern states get is subsidized by tax dollars paid by wealthy blue states.
That means that moderates and liberals are paying for poor conservatives’ Medicare.
That means that if the system gets dissolved, and the money goes back to the people who paid for it, it’s going to go right back to the blue states that put up the money to begin with.
Blue States like Massachusetts will be able to set up their own state health insurance subsidies, but poor states like Alabama will not, because they have no money to do so.
34. Hyphenated American:
I’ve noticed that a constant theme of the left is that conservatives should give up Medicare support and Social Security payments. Well, I think it’s a grand idea, and conservatives should do it. There is one precondition though, which I am sure the liberals would agree with. If a man withdraws from SS or Medicare, the federal government must return all the money it collected from him through the Social Security and Medicare taxes – with interest. There is another fine idea – only conservatives should be allowed to withdraw from Social Security and Medicare.
Hey, liberals (you know who I am talking to) – do you agree with this?
The one problem with this idea is SS and Medicare are bankrupt.
It is quite obvious that despite the Dem’s complete control of the government and the complicit MSM, the town halls have shaken the debate surrounding Obamacare.
I have raised this before and will reinject it at this time as I would like to hear others opininions about the Constitutional adequacy of HB 3200. I believe the government requiring me to turn over health records is a violation of the 4th Amendment. I also have heard several scholars, who are Constitutional experts and practice before the Supreme Court, opine that the legislation clearly violates the 14th Amendment and the line of precedent that evolved after the Griswold decision by the Court in the 1960′s. Further, it appears likely that HB3200 violates the Commerce Clause as, once again, the Supreme Court has restricted it’s application regarding personal behavior.
It is amazing to me that the Democrats appear to be blind to the Constitutional implications of the legislation. It shows me that this group of lawyers has not really considered the possibility that the legislation could be overturned by the Supreme Court when it is challenged, as inevitablly will occur. They have drafted a 1018 page bill without a thought as to it its ability to survive strict scrutiny analysis.
BOB BENNETT, REPUBLICAN, UTAH has a bill , S391 that he is proposing that is as bad if not worse IN MANY RESPECTS then the crap Obama is trying to pass.
UTAH!! WHAT’S WITH THIS GUY????? he’s a 3 terms senator running again.
Forget about returning the FICA taxes we’ve already paid (admittedly, I’ve only paid in about $50 to FICA), we should be content if swearing off Social Security and Medicare benefits gets us out of paying for them going forward. And while we’re at it, our employers won’t have to pay the payroll taxes either. Let me keep the 15.7% of my paycheck that would otherwise go to Social Security and Medicare in return for my promise never to accept benefits from the same.
Regardless, the only way this gets passed now is with the nuclear option, and I don’t think that will hold up. The Democrats’ filibuster proof majority died with Ted Kennedy, and it will take several months to elect a replacement for him. In order to pass something, Democrats will need not only unanimous support from their own party, but also a Republican, or else they won’t get anything done until January.
The Republican base were well aware of the stakes in 2008 and many even came out to vote, while holding their collective noses.
The Dems were chanting Hope and Change and Yes We Can, while forgetting about the race baiting spring primary and Hilary.
The independents were split, but many thought “can this guy be any worse than the last?” and “we’ve seen enough, let’s give the other party a chance.” Well, the independents, whose votes swing almost every election, are getting an education as to the results of their collective ignorance and they are not enjoying the lesson. The Republicans who stayed home are also enjoying the same lesson.
2010…gonna party like it’s 1994.
Ed Wallis:
“I went to the Moran (D-Virginia 8th) townhall last night…hoo wee!
Moran was a deer-in-the-headlights from the beginning. I guess that’s why he brought Howard Dean to “answer” (read: avoid) almost all the questions.”
Then I guess you saw this.
“You have to go to one of these events to realize how truly antagonistic and pig ignorant the death panel freaks are.
Moran eventually took questions from the audience, and three–count ‘em, three–people came up and asked if the insurance was going to be so good, why wouldn’t he pledge to take it himself. Each time Moran said that he would. They appeared to all be hard of hearing, however, because they kept accusing him of not answering the question and asking it again, as if the word “yes” didn’t have any meaning on their planet.”
Bubble gum and candy cigarettes. But the little rascals can justify this extravagance: afterall, they’re solving the nation’s problems!
Cody Saddler
“Because most of the Medicare money that conservative southern/midwestern states get is subsidized by tax dollars paid by wealthy blue states.”
Wealthy? Like California? New York? Michigan?Heheheheheheheheheh.
41 jharp . . . Now you know the right isn’t interested in answers. They only care about accusations.
Now and Then:
“41 jharp . . . Now you know the right isn’t interested in answers. They only care about accusations.”
So true. I have witnessed political disagreements and ignorance many many times in my life.
But I have never seen anything like this.
The ignorance is astounding. “death panels” “socialized medicine” “waiting times” etc.
American’s are paying twice as much for the same level of care. And have a good model(Medicare) already in place that would easily solve the crises.
And the ignorant wingers somehow believe it’s in their best interest to preserve the profits of the insurance companies. The very insurance companies who have been screwing them for years with denial of claims and denial of coverage.
Mind boggling.
To Now & Then -
Jettboy is right. If no one had insurance, or very limited insurance, none of what you hypothesize would every come to be. As for why private insurance rates are so high, the answer seems to be rules imposed by the states. New York, New Jersey and Main have tried imposing all kinds of rules on health insurance that has simply made the insurance unafforable. Were there to be a national charter for insurance companies to compete across state lines so that anyone could purchase health insurance from anywhere in the country, we would probably see a very competitive market in health insurance.
I should point out that the current model of employer-supplied health insurance is a legacy of wage and price controls of WWII. We need to move away from that model. We can do so either taxing employer and employee contributions equally or not at all. Secondly, there should be encouragement of individuals to set up groups outside of their employers so they can get the benefits of group coverage with its being tied to their employers.
We clearly do not follow the current health insurance model for auto and home insurance, and there is (in general) no crisis in those areas of insurance. Indeed, what we shoud do is follow the model of those types insurance in health insurance.
Obama, Are You Listening?
No, he’s not listening.
Any protest to his agenda is simply to be belittled, dismissed, disqualified.
Obama’s off the cuff, “shut up and let us do our job” remark is as revealing as his unintended candor in response to Joe the Plumber.
The debate isn’t about health or, even, care.
Barack Obama, his minions & his overlords, are driven by equality- of-results thinking
…guess that’s why he brought Howard Dean to “answer”
They’re referring to Howard Dean now (eyyyahhhah !!) as Chairman Dean.
Spooky
Given the fact that he’s an MD, I guess this marginal nutjob and Obamacare fanatic has recently been given a little more street cred (in the healthcare debate that isn’t really about healthcare).
Obama is on a roll…with his Czar Mark Lloyd. Do you honestly think he wants to debate and “see the other side”?
Y’all need to take a look at his Communcations Czar and what he is up to…if he is successful, you won’t be hearing anything but the views of the left.
Mark Lloyd, newly appointed Chief Diversity Officer of the Federal Communications Commission wants the fairness docitrine put into effect.
Sorry folks, if you’re not black you ain’t poop in this new America with Obama. they just want your money. Boy, you blue eyed blondes don’t have a chance!!
Hope y’all watch Beck. He is doing a program on all of this. Obama doesn’t care what we want, it’s what his socialist agenda wants.
“Town Halls Rock the U.S.: Obama, Are You Listening?”
Morons with guns showing up at presidential events. Secret Service, are you listening?
Wow, the liberals still can’t stomach a good anti-Obama protest can they? GROW A SET ALREADY.
When did liberals turn into such pantywaists? Weren’t you the group that sent Code Pinkers into ever Congressional hearing? I guess pink boas are less threatening than veterans and senior citizens. I get it now.
Hilarious!
Re bibio44:”Secret Service, are you listening?”
Are they listening? Oh, I get it. The intelligence agencies aren’t liars (just ask Pelosi) when you’re wanting them to arrest people at town hall meetings right? Funny how the libs think they’re liars when it comes to NATIONAL SECURITY though. Picking and choosing our battles are we bibio44?
A real life story of what happens when government bureaucracy inserts itself into standard of care
Read it and weep
The Code Pink women remind of Christmas lights or Christmas ornaments. Who wants to see Media Benjamin as the Easter Bunny? Give her a bunny suit then call PETA. After PETA shows up with their naked protesters, it will get messy as the PETA people throw blood on the Code Pink Easter Bunny. Really, that’s how you take power away from those Leftists–make them a joke. It’s really easy when they are writing the script.
Re bibio44:”Morons with guns showing up at presidential events. Secret Service, are you listening?”
#52: “Are they listening? Oh, I get it. The intelligence agencies aren’t liars (just ask Pelosi) when you’re wanting them to arrest people at town hall meetings right? Funny how the libs think they’re liars when it comes to NATIONAL SECURITY though. Picking and choosing our battles are we bibio44?”
No, Sinking Person, you don’t get it. Not even close. I’ve copied the entire exchange because, otherwise, no one would believe how stupid your response is.
bibio44:
“No, Sinking Person, you don’t get it. Not even close. I’ve copied the entire exchange because, otherwise, no one would believe how stupid your response is.”
Excuse me? Some us us see it and believe it.
I’ve been thru it with Sinking Person previously.
Though I do agree with posting the entire exchange because so many here don’t get it.
AThinkingPerson is bound and determined to continue to pay twice what the rest of the world does for health care. Why, I cannot understand. I’m leaning towards anything Obama must be vehemently opposed. And he is completely ignorant as to the quality and cost of health care using single payer systems in every other country in the world.
Re bibio44: I don’t get it? I don’t get that Pelosi called the CIA (an intelligence agency) liars? She did.
I don’t get that you as a Pelosi minion are now calling on an intelligence agency to come to your aid? Why call on a bunch of liars?
So, are the intelligence agencies lying or not bibio44? Come on now. Formulate a coherent thought for us all and get your story straight.
You’re a hypocrite bibio44. Wear the badge proudly. Most liberals seem to.
Everyone here has car insurance. We dont have goverment car care. The industry does fine and I have a 3 drivers on my policy with 4 cars ($4000 year NJ) I pay my insurance and if I have a claim they pay it. It works!
Now lets have a Goverment Car Care Plan. Our rates would sky rocket. The poor would get free Car Care. My insurance would double and it would take twice as long to get my car fixed.
On top of that, they would tell me I could only have two cars, one would have to run
on electric and it would have a speed restriction device that would not let it go over 60
Take the humanistic side out of the lefts view for pushing universal health care and it sounds like a complete moronic idea.
jharp: I pay for my own insurance and know full well what it costs. Apparently you are the ignorant one that is waiting in line for Obama to dole out your health care. You did know he’s not doing the prostate exams personally right? Just wanted to be sure. You seem pretty adamant about being first in line for some free Obama health care.
We have health insurance. We pay a VERY high premium. If not for the costs of medical testing, RX etc…the premiums would not be so high.
So….maybe that means the insurance need not be touched , but try to bring health care costs under control.
#10 Now and Then
We already paid for Medicare…most of our lives. Why would we choose to not get some of our money back on that forced investment, one that none of us had any choice in? Just wondering. You and others seem to think that we just donated that money for all of these decades and that for us to demand services is hypocritical (of course it could also be that you haven’t “donated” anything toward your own Medicare and so are completely ignorant of the cost). Well, I have a suggested solution: give us all of the money back, and we’ll purchase our own health care.
@2. vivo: – Why not use a form of FEHBP?
Excellent idea. Here’s the best way to implement it. It’s presented in ‘phases’, but they’re all implemented at the same time.
Phase I – Encourage use of Low-Premium, High-Deductible Catastrophic Health Insurance:
Municipal employees typically already have a city- or town-administered comprehensive health plan. Switch those to (or simply add a) catastrophic health plan, administered through the municipality and allow any resident of the municipality to join that catastrophic plan. If an insurance company offers such a plan, no pre-existing condition exclusions or other benefit restrictions may be applied, per federal law. The group size is already sufficient to mitigate any significant risk on the part of the insurance company.
All premiums paid into a municipally administered catastrophic plan garner a 100% tax credit. Benefits paid out to an individual under a catastrophic plan are not taxable at the federal, State or local level.
Phase I does several things. First, it eliminates the financial risk posed by catastrophic illness or injury for everyone in the plan at a very nominal cost. Second, a municipality can take advantage of enormous actuarial group sizes much larger than any company – from thousands to tens of thousands – which will keep premiums, which are already typically low for this type of plan, extremely low. Third, it adds a much-needed level of stability to health care insurance, since people change residence far less frequently than they change jobs. Fourth, and most important, this encourages people to use insurance for its intended purpose – to mitigate financial risk.
Phase II – Eliminate Tax Advantages of Employee Comprehensive Coverage:
Eliminate all tax breaks given to employers for administering and/or paying into comprehensive health care plans. Tax all employer contributions to a comprehensive plan as income to the individual, at standard payroll rates.
Provide a five-year tax-credit / tax-exclusion for employer health plan contributions which are reverted to the employee. That is, employers enjoy a five-year tax-credit for monies paid to employees that WERE being paid to an insurance company, while this same income is treated as non-taxable for the five-year duration. Essentially, everyone enrolled in a comp. health plan at work gets an instant, tax-exempt raise of from $4000 to $16000 per year, depending on the cost of the plan they’re in.
This phase discourages the use of group comprehensive health care insurance, which has the following negative effects:
(1) it disassociates the consumer from the cost of their care, which encourages increases in cost;
(2) it facilitates resource-pooling behavior that allows the cost of goods and services to increase to the level of the group’s resources (rather than the individual), which encourages increases in cost;
(3) it facilitates a proxy monopoly of insurance companies which control the price of, all transactions for and access to health care, which encourages increases in cost;
(4) it interposes a business model with its own interests and profit motive, which limits access to health care for many, and encourages increases in cost;
(5) it “spreads the wealth around” by spreading the costs around – a socialist, wealth-redistribution function that insurance is not designed to perform fairly.
This phase also encourages people to work in jobs they love, rather than keep jobs they hate because they don’t want to lose the health care benefit.
Phase III – Changes in Provider Income Taxation:
Income for services provided by a health care provider that are derived from a comprehensive health care plan are taxed per the difference between the amount “billed” minus the amount “paid” (e.g., on an EOB – find one and read it, you’ll see what I mean) or 30% of the amount paid, whichever is greater.
Income for services provided by a health care provider that are not derived from payments by a comprehensive health care plan – i.e., which are paid through a catastrophic plan or directly by a consumer – are taxed at a nominal 5%.
Phase IV – Encourage Direct-Pay, Health Clinic Use, Health Savings Accounts:
All fees paid directly to a health care provider for medical goods and/or services in lieu of benefits from a comprehensive health care plan are 100% tax deductible, with no “minimum”, except…
All fees paid to medical facilities for Emergency Room Care for services that are non-emergency in nature are not tax-deductible.
Income deposited to a Health Savings Account is tax-deferred in the same way as a 401-K. Withdrawals for expenses other than health care, or ER services for non-emergent care incur taxation at standard payroll rates. Account holders may make a one-time (lifetime) withdrawal of all HSA funds, with no deferred tax disadvantage (that’s ONE-time, so use it wisely).
This phase encourages a direct relationship between health care provider and consumer, putting downward pressure on costs. It also helps to eliminate the ER as the de facto health care distribution point and encourages savings.
Phase V – Tort Reform:
See Texas’ recent legislation for tort reform details. It’s working. Also, modify the federal tax structure such that income to attorneys for tort cases is taxed at 65%.
———–
Note that throughout, those factors that cause health care to increase are discouraged through carefully applied taxation. This provides an increase in federal revenue, which can be used to fund health clinic networks and fund health critical care (per EMTALA) for those unable to afford it, while slowly changing provider and consumer behavior in ways that tend to reduce the cost of routine health care by increasing health care system efficiency, encouraging competition, bringing exorbitant salaries of medical professionals – as well as the cost of associated academic institutions – into equilibrium with other professions, eliminating astronomical tort awards, reducing liability insurance costs for medical professionals, etc.
Yes, it will put the comprehensive insurance companies completely out of business. This is a feature, not a bug. They can move to providing catastrophic policies at nominal – instead of outrageous – profit margins.
What all this does NOT do is the following:
1. It does NOT make a significant segment of the population a “health ward” of the federal government.
2. It does NOT turn more control of our health – and anything arguably associated with it – over to an increasingly corrupt and unaccountable federal government.
3. It does NOT create an enormous, permanent voting bloc that will perpetuate a socialized health care bureaucracy guaranteed to duplicate the failures seen in other countries.
4. It does NOT forces 1/3 of the population to pay for the entire population’s health care (along with everything else we taxpayers pay for on behalf of those who pay no income tax or who receive federal welfare via “tax credit” ).
If the we had a federal government of the People, by the People, working for the benefit of the People, this is the approach our elected representatives would be taking. They would be looking for real, verifiable methods to bring the cost of health care down using the same economic model that keeps other routine costs of living relatively affordable.
The fact that our government is NOT looking at this kind of approach is the reason so many people are up in arms about the State’s perennial attempts to seize control of our health care.
jharp: you crack me up!
Again a liberal only sees what they want to see.
Lets just say that the #,s are correct. We pay twice as much for healh care as others. Lets just compare ourselves to the Swede’s. I know you liberals love to talk about the Swede’s.
Now, lets say you take a family with an income of $125,000 per year. With all the crap taxes and deductions you pay 25% of your salary ($30,000)
Now take the Swedes, their take rate is around 52% lets just say 50% for easy math I know we have to make it easy for a Liberal. Thats $60,000
Now tell me who pays more for health care
jharp- I got a bridge for sale you want to buy it.
And he is completely ignorant as to the quality and cost of health care using single payer systems in every other country in the world.
jharp likes to call everybody dumb & ignorant, but seems blissfully unaware of the horror stories of waiting, rationing & substandard (if any) care streaming in from Great Britain & Canada. (hello ? hello ? This is your Canadian healthcare advisor, calling to inform you (after your short wait of only 6 months!) you’ve been assigned a GP !
Plus the “going broke” aspect, especially in Britain.
Anyway, we decided last night that, under Ezekiel Emanuel’s and John Holdren’s diabolic thinking as to which age & “value” groups, precisely, should get the best and most timely “healthcare”, jharp probably wouldn’t qualify.
AThinkingPerson:
“jharp: I pay for my own insurance and know full well what it costs. Apparently you are the ignorant one that is waiting in line for Obama to dole out your health care. You did know he’s not doing the prostate exams personally right? Just wanted to be sure. You seem pretty adamant about being first in line for some free Obama health care.”
We’re all paying for everyone’s health care you fool. That is something your ignorant fools can’t seem to grasp. The problem is the method in which we pool the risks. It ain’t working. No one wants to insure the unhealthy. No one wants to insure the elderly, thus Medicare. Why is this so hard to understand.
And like you, I have always paid for my own insurance.
Unlike you, I am smart enough to understand I’m paying twice what the rest of the world pays, for the same level of care. And only because our delivery system sucks.
Oh, and nothing is free. Including Obama Care. It’s only that is is far less costly and much more efficient.
34…thank you.
Their logic is so goofy. Apparently they would also support a complete suspension of any driving at all on any federal highways in order to protest wasted money on new highway construction projects.
Their failure to think and inability to reason makes the process of “communication with clunkers” problematic.
Hubby and I would be delighted to receive from the government a check in the amount of $170,000 which would represent our involuntary documented CASH contribution, plus compound interest, beginning in 1959, for their use of our money.
Get that suggestion lined up and I will gladly toss my Social Security card and Medicare card (and also stop paying the additional $5,000 a year premiums we pay to have complete coverage because the refund of our funds with interest should easily be enough to cover fee for service medical care…if we could return to competition in medical services WITHOUT the government)
#50
“Morons with guns showing up at presidential events. Secret Service, are you listening?”
Stay away you MAY remain safe…
or maybe you can play with the big boys..
heh
Is Obama listening? He doesn’t care! He’s a full blown statist. He believes in total equality of outcome and a massive bureaucracy dedicated to directing every facet of our lives. If Obama, Reid, Pelosi and the rest of the Marxists succeed with their health care push there will be war. Liberty loving Conservatives will NOT be reduced to indentured servitude to an unconstitutional federal government. I know I won’t.
The essential VDH http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWQ2NWJkN2M3ZmJjYWQwMDZlMWQyM2FjNWI4ZWJkNGI=
Teabaggers = Fail
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1xQeOPE9ePU/SpPDFZp-nhI/AAAAAAAAD0Y/KFBLNvoRlvc/s1600-h/2009-08-25-josh_arizona_protest_gun.jpg
On this days we must be very practical for everything we pay instead of buying lots of expensive lots of things like cars insurance we must priority our Health Insurance above all…
27. Paul -Indiana:
“From HR-3200 [Page 143]
SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
===================================================
Does that mean that any alien on a valid visa is entitled to healthcare/insurance at our expense?”
Unless there is another paragraph referring to it, they could. But not at our expense, they would have to buy insurance. Green carders have all the rights & obligations of any citizen except voting.
@65. jharp: – We’re all paying for everyone’s health care you fool. That is something your ignorant fools can’t seem to grasp.
Everyone grasps this, uh, ‘you fool’. What the left fails to grasp is that not everyone agrees we should be. Duh.
- The problem is the method in which we pool the risks. It ain’t working.
Like almost everyone, you’re blindly assuming three things here. Two of which are demonstrably false. The other is empirically true, but no one understands why. I’ll explain.
First of all, the vast majority of health care – routine health care – does not yet pose a significant financial risk. Routine health care, like all other routine costs of living, is something that should be budgeted just like groceries, utilities, rent/mortgage, etc. Since routine health care doesn’t pose a significant risk, we should NOT be using a tool designed to mitigate risk when paying for it. That’s the first part of why our health care system is broken.
Second, by paying for routine care with a broken system, which uses group insurance inappropriately to pay for routine expenses, we are “spreading the wealth around” by spreading the cost around. The problem is that insurance is the worst mechanism for spreading wealth around fairly, even if you’re a socialist and that’s what your really want to do. By misusing insurance, we reward the sick and penalize the healthy.
In fact, if you look at how this dynamic actually works in practice, it’s the biggest part of what has caused health care costs to skyrocket. If you’re really interested in exploring the root causes there, rather than pushing a partisan agenda, you might be fascinated at what you’d find.
- No one wants to insure the unhealthy. No one wants to insure the elderly, thus Medicare. Why is this so hard to understand.
It’s not. And you clearly don’t understand it either. The fact is that no one wants to PAY the skyrocketing costs of the elderly’s routine care. In a sane world, where health care costs haven’t been encouraged to go through the roof by abuse of insurance as a payment medium, this would be such a big deal. Catastrophic plans would prevent both the elderly AND the unhealthy from going broken on really costly care, and the routine care would be just another cost of living. But in this INSANE world run by the left, all they can seem to talk about is “coverage” and “covering the costs”. No one is talking about fixing the health care market so that prices for routine care move back into equilibrium with other commodity, cost-of-living expenses. There’s absolutely nothing in Obama’s plan that will do that, and he’ll eventually be forced to implement wage and price controls.
- And only because our delivery system sucks.
Wrong. Our delivery system is fine (except that the ER is used too much). What sucks is the mechanism we use to pay for it, which does NOTHING but encourage the costs to constantly rise (see post #62).
- … Obama Care. It’s only that is is far less costly and much more efficient.
This assertion is utter nonsense. First of all, there IS no such thing as “Obama Care” right now. You can’t assert that something which has never been implemented is less costly or more efficient. Second, if the projections based on BHO’s health plan are anything like any of the OTHER projections this administration has made, we can be absolutely sure that it will NOT be less costly and will NOT be more efficient.
Unemployment wasn’t supposed to go above 8%, that was the promise used to pass the Spendulus. It’s currently at 16%. The 10-yr deficit was only supposed to go to $7.1T. Now we know it’s going to be at least $9T, and it’ll likely go higher as more information is collected, and definitely will if these nutty spending sprees aren’t stopped.
Is any of this reality getting through to you yet? This administration has NO FRAKKING CLUE what it’s doing. And the further along we go, the clearer that becomes. How can you just blindly go along with it when reality is punching you in the teeth every time you open your mouth?
Sallie at 44,
You have your eye on the ball. It is going to take some time for most independents and conservatives to wake up to what Lloyd is up to. However, that process has started. National healthcare is the first example of the public coming to. Mark Lloyd is a racist leftist and will attempt to circumvent the 1st Amendment. He is an admirer of Hugo Chavez, a demonstrable enemy of our nation. When Americans catch on, look out. The Administration is betting it can slide this by the public. My bet is that it will be attempted and will fail in the end. Like health care Lloyds “localism” won’t survive constitutional scrutiny.
I notice my challenge to discuss the Constitutional aspects of Obamacare has gone unanswered. I would have predicted it. We will be discussing the Constitutional implications of HB3200 soon enough, as we will be discussing the implications of Mr. Lloyd and the rest of the Administrations nefarious designs. The President will not be able to subvert the protections we are afforded as citizens of this nation by the Constitution.
I am looking forward to Pajamas comentators picking up on Mr. Lloyd and the other subversive types who have infiltrated our federal government. Wait until people begin to figure out what Holdren is up to. What Lloyd and Holdren believe in is subversive to the Constitution. What does that say about the President given that they are his appointees?
It won’t succeed once it is discovered. The backlash is going to be very, very intense.
Waiting for the inevitable ad hominem vituperation by the usual suspects. You can tell exactly who they are and what they believe by what they say and the tactics they employ. If they defend one czar who worships at the alter of infanticide and another who worships Chavez then they betray their actual anticonstitutional beliefs.
What’s the difference between a politician and a bowel movement?
Prisoners won’t rub a politician all over their bodies and fling them at their enemies.
I dont own medicare too but i guess i should try it maybe the republican can do something to those who cannot afford to have a Health Insurance…
72. goy:
“”By paying for routine care with a broken system, which uses group insurance inappropriately to pay for routine expenses, we are “spreading the wealth around” by spreading the cost around.”
Actually, group insurance spreads neither wealth nor cost, it spreads risk. And no, wealth, cost and risk are not the same things. They’re like, oh I don’t know, apples and oranges and flag pins.
(It’s because of something called “causal relationships.” That and a bunch of intersecting circles I didn’t understand, but anyway, you can trust me on this one. I looked it up on a blogger site on the intertube, so I’m pretty convinced it’s twoo.)
@76. Now and Then: – group insurance spreads neither wealth nor cost, it spreads risk.
Wrong. Insurance is a tool for mitigating financial risk – and it does this regardless of whether the policy is individual or group-based. Routine care – the vast majority of overpriced health care paid for by insurance – poses no financial risk.
You pay for routine health care as part of a group. The costs incurred by your consumption of health care – whether routine OR catastrophic – are spread to the others in your plan, and vice versa. This is “spreading the wealth around” by spreading the cost around. Worse yet, this spreading is unfair in the extreme, since it rewards those who don’t take care of their health and penalizes the health-conscious.
By abusing group insurance to pay for routine health care the economic relationship between the service provider and consumer is destroyed. This destruction is purely by design, and benefits everyone involved except the consumer by encouraging costs to skyrocket, exactly as we’ve seen.
By disassociating the consumer from the cost of the services received – unlike every other market where costs are kept relatively affordable – this broken market removes all downward pressure on the cost of health care and, therefore, encourages it to rise as all prices tend to do per Econ 101.
The math that results from this broken economic model predicts long-term, extra-inflationary cost increases over time as a result. Not surprisingly (and unlike bogus theories like ‘global warming’), the actual historical data shows exactly what is predicted by this broken market dynamic: cost increases are going from linear to exponential.
… I didn’t understand …
A fact that you seem intent on demonstrating.
#45 jharp,
Your mind is never boggled. It is just addlepated.
#10 Now and Then
“Everybody, give me your Medicare cards! Throw them in a pile right here on the floor! We’re gonna have ourselves a bonfire of patriotism! Come on now! I’ll start” And so I threw my Medicare card on the floor.”
Good for you, very liberating. I’m very proud of you. Did you have a fleeting moment of weightlessness, you know, unlocking the chains of government assistance, I mean control?
I’m going to my own town hall mtg next week and I thank you Ed Wallis for your comments. I can hardly wait to voice my passion for NOT wanting government sticking their noses in any more of my business and for G-D’s sake, nothing as personal as my or my family’s healthcare.
Please look into catastrophic health coverage. It’s an affordable alternative and puts to onus back on the indivual.
The insurance system, the insurance system.!!! whoa is me….
Insurances are out to make a profit..it’s capitalism…
Change what the cost of testing, RX’s, treatments , malpractice for dr’s are because of frivilous crap and jury awards and we might bring some of the medical costs in the US under control. the insurance’s are attacked because Obama wants them out of business and you on state assitance!!!
you don’t see Obama and your elected officials rushing to get on the health plan do you????? Because it stinks and they need a scapegoat!!!!!
Insurance companies serve them well and we like good followers, lay the blame at the feet of the insurance companies because BO says we should!!!
PUKE!!!
American’s are not dumb people!! Obama is trying to make us all dependent on the government!!!! wake up!! don’t blame the insurance companies!!
Gracie here again….
Frankly, I do not think jharp, MoHo etc are liberals, they are too far off base, and say some really dumb stuff. Maybe they are here just to stir the pot and watch for reactions. We quit reading their posts a couple of weeks ago, but you guys just keep on walking through troll poop.
Can’t you just see them , him?, jumping up and down in front of their computer???? hahhahahaha
There are a couple of us that post together, and we all think the same thing. They (he)lay out troll poop, and watch everyone step in it…and are at home laughing at the reactions. By acting as liberals, they are big fish in a little pond. On a liberal post they would be the opposite and have no fun.
BTW, we went to a town hall meeting last night. It was spirited. A good crowd and good information. The rep was articulate. Will not vote for the health plan. But as he said, that does not mean it is all going to go away quietly not to heard from again. Expect Obama to keep pushing.
#40 Sallie -
“Obama doesn’t care what we want, it’s what his socialist agenda wants.”
Bingo, and that could be repeated about any one of his bills. He simply has his own agenda and he doesn’t have the slightest concern about what the taxpaying American wants. It’s no wonder the elites and the dependents are so on board with the direction he wants to take our country. I don’t think he cares about a 2nd term as long as he can marginalize the right and alter the political landscape of this country to fit his socialist model.by then it’s a moot point and he figures he’ll always have a seat at the table.
Keep pushing America. Attend every town hall you can, attend all your local teaparty gatherings and write your legislators. This is a battle about our constitution which truely hangs in the balance. In addition, please do some research about obama’s unprecedented number of czars he’s appointed and look at their pasts. Keep pushing.
jharp insists Obamacare will be much more “efficient”. Sort of like Cash for Clunkers eh jharp? LOL!
jharp: Obama says he’s got ocean front property in Arizona for sale….
62. goy:
Thanks for your answer.
62. goy:
@2. vivo: – Why not use a form of FEHBP?
“Phase I – Encourage use of Low-Premium, High-Deductible Catastrophic Health Insurance:”
Looks like a good idea, but hope that the high deductibles are not too high.
“Phase II – Eliminate Tax Advantages of Employee Comprehensive Coverage:”
I don’t agree with the thinking behind it. It eliminates health insurance.
“Phase III – Changes in Provider Income Taxation:”
This makes co-insurance payments pretty expensive. Not affordable to retired people.
“Phase IV – Encourage Direct-Pay, Health Clinic Use, Health Savings Accounts:”
This makes sense.
“Phase V – Tort Reform:”
It might work.
“By misusing insurance, we reward the sick and penalize the healthy.”
This doesn’t ring true to me because you can be sick now, then you can be healthy, sick again and healthy again. That’ how insurance works.
“Catastrophic plans would prevent both the elderly AND the unhealthy from going broken on really costly care, and the routine care would be just another cost of living.”
The problem here is that routine care can be very expensive and the elderly cannot afford, so they can easily fall into catastrophic situations.
“This administration has NO FRAKKING CLUE what it’s doing.”
It’s a moral responsibility of all brilliant minds to define and set forth something that will work for everyone. Period.
62. goy:
All socialist totalitarian ideas! You don’t love this country. You love Stalin and Hitler. They killed a hundred million people and now you want to do the same thing with your Marxist manipulations.
“eliminates the financial risk posed by catastrophic illness or injury”
Nanny stater! Whatever happened to pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? If you’re alive you have risks. DUH! Don’t look to somebody else to guarantee you anything in life. Or maybe your mommy doesn’t talk about that with you.
“Tax all employer contributions to a comprehensive plan as income to the individual”
Tax, tax, tax, that’s your answer to everything. Hey, ever hear of a little something called a TEA PARTY. Didn’t think so. Bolshevik.
“”Withdrawals for expenses other than health care, or ER services for non-emergent care incur taxation at standard payroll rates”
What, more taxes? That’s blatantly unConsitutional, but you wouldn’t know that because you were educated in American public school system, right? That’s why I home school my kids, so they won’t grow yup to be appartch . . . apparatck . . . leftists like you!
“put the comprehensive insurance companies completely out of business”
Long live the free market, but you don’t get that. You’d rather put companies out of business. Hey, at least that way you don’t have to regulate their pay. This kind of intrusive anti-capitalism is destroying the very passions of our founding fathers. But do you care or know that? No. You’re too busy eating Cheetos and wiping your butt with your hand. How’s the lighting in that basement?
Do us all a favor and keep your radical socialism to yourself. You’re not welcome here, troll.
READ THE BILL! NO DEATH SQUADS! KEEP GOVERNMENT AWAY FROM MEDICARE!
Oh, and Ted Kennedy was fat.
@85. vivo: – Looks like a good idea, but hope that the high deductibles are not too high.
Non-responsive comment based on fear, not reality.
- I don’t agree with the thinking behind it. It eliminates health insurance.
Disingenuous, at best. You apparently don’t want to understand the difference between catastrophic (see above) and routine health care. The latter is a standard cost of living and therefore presents no “risk” – i.e., insurance is the wrong way to pay for it. Because we misuse insurance to do so, we are literally paying the price in the form of skyrocketing costs. NO OTHER MARKET experiences this problem because in NO OTHER MARKET do we misuse group insurance to pay for a routine cost of living.
Your statement here belies everything else you’ve pretended to support. It demonstrates that you are clearly in favor of perpetuating the greedy capitalist insurance company monopoly that now controls all prices for health care, handles virtually all transactions (read: cash flow) for health care and controls virtually all access to health care.
- This makes co-insurance payments pretty expensive.
Wrong. It eliminates co-pays. Co-pays are part of what encourages skyrocketing costs. Through the use of co-pays, health care consumers are completely disassociated from the actual cost of the care they receive. In this way they are rendered powerless to exert any downward pressure on prices (go find an Econ 101 textbook if you don’t get this). The size of the co-pay is not related in any way to the actual cost and, therefore, lulls the consumer into a false state of belief that the cost of their care is “stable” when it’s not.
- Not affordable to retired people.
Non sequitur. Co-pays will be eliminated under this scenario.
- It might work.
Correction: it has worked.
- This doesn’t ring true to me because you can be sick now, then you can be healthy, sick again and healthy again. That’ how insurance works.
Wrong. Insurance is a tool for mitigating financial risk. Even “being sick” is not a reason to use insurance. Everyone gets “sick” at one time or another in ways that don’t involve financial ruin. These are the situations people USED TO save for. With the “spend-everything-while-you-can” mentality, promoted by the moral adolescents who see no reason to save for the future, this type of behavior has disappeared.
Our health care system is broken because we misuse insurance as a proxy for socialism – by spreading the costs around, we spread the wealth around. Those who are chronically ill, and who therefore should be paying high costs through high-deductible policies, or those who don’t take care of their own health, and who therefore are not deserving of my contributions, are rewarded under this system. This doesn’t ring true to you because of your adolescent notions of “social justice” and the “greater good”, which require coercion to be made manifest and which always result in failure over the long term. See also: Soviet Union, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, Communist Cambodia, et al.
- The problem here is that routine care can be very expensive…
No. The problem here is that YOU insist on purposely missing the point. That is that the cost of routine care has been highly inflated and needs to be brought back into equilibrium with other routine costs of living. That will ONLY ever happen in one of two ways: either the market is allowed to correct itself, through the elimination of the insurance company monopoly and the restoration of a direct economic relationship between health provider and consumer, or the government imposes wage and price controls. Those are your options.
You can’t just go on blindly complaining about care being “very expensive” and pretending there’s nothing you can do about it – that’s the fundamental falsehood on which this entire, meaningless health care “debate” is founded. Get the costs under control FIRST. THEN let’s see where we are, and whether or not an unconstitutional “public option” is even needed. Costs are skyrocketing because there’s no pressure keeping them down. None. Zero. And it’s not a question of whether you believe that, or whether you can be convinced of it contrary to your socialist indoctrination. It is mathematically predicted, verifiable, observable reality.
- It’s a moral responsibility of all brilliant minds to define and set forth something that will work for everyone. Period.
An absolutely meaningless, non-responsive statement. And here I thought you were serious about considering a realistic approach to resolving this problem. LOL!!!!
86. Now and Then: – Tax, tax, tax, that’s your answer to everything.
Well, not really. You’ll note that there’s as much tax relief in that plan as there is taxation. You’ll note it, that is, when you actually read it again for comprehension rather than ridicule.
In fact, I’m taking a cue from the federal government on this, and offering something they can get behind (i.e., taxes). The feds – especially during the recent 75-year slide into socialism – have relied upon taxation as pretty much the answer to everything. This is understandable, since it’s one of the few enumerated powers government has. You want “social justice”? Take that tax revenue and go nuts – set up a network of government-funded “free” health care clinics. Whatever. As long as the taxes are being derived from activities that promote negative economic outcomes, that should be perfectly acceptable to everyone.
Since the government is predisposed to taxation, it should be used in such a way that it promotes free markets and lowered cost to the consumer / taxpayer / People. Despite the fact that it’s the core of the problem, it’s not legal – or even morally justifiable, really – to “outlaw” comprehensive health insurance. Hell, we can’t even convince the government to undo the Ponzi scheme they’ve created out of Social Security. So the best way to deal with it is to tax it out of existence and allow the health care market to seek its own equilibrium like all other markets where routine costs-of-living expenses are relatively affordable.
I’m sure you agree.
When I listen to the Pro and Anti comments on this site and on others, I can’t help thinking…is America’s best days over.
When Republicans are in the white house the democrats trash everything Republicans attempt to do. Result..Stalemate
When the Democrats are in the white house, the republicans play the same game.
So nothing good every gets done. Both sides hate the other and refuse to work together for common good
And who is the winner.
Totalitarian countries where dissent is stifled. Countries like China, who are focusing all their efforts on building their country, saving their money, and working hard to build an economy that will soon eclipse our own. There is no debate. Only a single minded effort to catapult China into the future.
Every power rises and falls. Perhaps we are now watching our Country slide into obscurity and China rise to take our place.
Time to learn Chinese?