Three Bottles of Wine: Greece, Israel, and Me
In the Aeneid of Virgil, the character Laocoön warns his compatriots about the Trojan Horse left at the gates of the city. “Beware of Greeks bearing gifts” — an aphorism that has entered the cultural encyclopedia to mean “beware of accepting tainted offerings,” which makes eminent sense. A similar scruple, however, applies to those who return or reject gifts, an act no less problematic if the gifts happen to be innocent, as we shall see in what follows.
Relations between Israel and Greece have grown particularly strained over the last few years. The absurd accusation of Greek national hero Mikis Theodorakis, composer of many oratorios and most famously of the score for the film Zorba the Greek, to the effect that the “small nation [of Israel] is at the root of evil” is by no means an anomaly but representative of much current Greek sentiment. The Jewish cemetery in Ioannina in NW Greece was vandalized three times in 2009. There have been several desecrations of Holocaust memorials. Greece’s major daily Eleftherotypia, among others, vilifies Israeli soldiers, portraying them as Nazi Sturmbanngruppen.
Such incidents continue to proliferate. On January 5 and again on January 16, 2010, the 17th-century Etz Hayim synagogue in Xania, the capital of the island of Crete, was torched, causing widespread damage and destroying a library of 2,500 books. That there are only ten Jews living on Crete, among a population of 650,000 (according to the 2005 census), renders this — I am tempted to say, cretinous — auto-da-fé rather puzzling.
The present state of affairs troubles me profoundly since I have a personal connection to the country. I have lived in Greece intermittently for a little over five years altogether, including a six-month sojourn in Xania, where my first son was born. Indeed, I have long considered Greece as my second home and have often entertained the idea of purchasing a house on one of the islands. A Hellenist by temperament, I have written a book, The Anatomy of Arcadia, about this extraordinary country and made many good friends there. I did not personally encounter specific instances of anti-Semitism, although people were often surprised to discover that I was an evraios. “But you look Greek” was a response I often received. I couldn’t help thinking, somewhat amusedly, of James Joyce’s phrase from Ulysses, “Jewgreek is greekjew.”
I have not revisited the country since 9/11, at which time I was staying on the island of Tilos in the southern Aegean. Greeks were not especially preoccupied with Jews or Israel then, but with Muslims and Turkey. Greece has never forgotten the four-hundred-year occupation it suffered under the Ottoman Turks, the 1922 massacre in Smyrna, and the Cypriot partition. On several occasions it was on the verge of war with Turkey over oil rights in the northern Aegean, and I remember vividly when I was summering on the island of Lesbos, just across from the Troad, the Turkish fighter jets daily buzzing the coastal farm I’d rented and the Greek army laying mines in my backyard. On 9/11, I recall one Tiliotis saying, as we watched the TV replay of the collapsing towers and heard the name Osama bin Laden repeated over and over, “We have another bloody sultan on our hands.” September 11 seemed to be a wake-up call for Greece as it was for many other nations.
No longer. Much has changed in the last nine years. Greece has moved distinctly to the left, social unrest has grown epidemic, the economy is in shambles, and the fear of a revitalized Islam has set in, as it has in many European countries. This latter menace has led not to a stand of principled resistance, as one might have assumed, but to gestures of trembling appeasement, a strong identification with the Palestinian cause, and a consequent denunciation of the Jewish state as the putative mischief-maker in the region. The moral retreat before the threat of Islam following upon 9/11 has culminated in much of the Western world adopting Islam’s enemy as its own. And now even Greece, a nation that labored under the Islamic yoke for centuries, has turned its sights on Israel.
The moment of epiphany for me came when I learned of a rather unsavory episode involving leftist PASOK deputy and current Vice President Theodoros Pangalos that occurred at the end of 2008. Pangalos had received a Christmas gift of three bottles of Golan wine from the Israeli embassy in Athens. He quickly returned the offending vintage, accompanied by a letter stating: “I have been taught since I was very young not to steal and not to accept products of theft. So I cannot possibly accept this gift and must return it back to you. As you know, your country occupies illegally the Golan Heights who belong to Syria, according to the international law and numerous decisions of the international community.”
Israel should let this nation full of deranged, hate-filled, immoral souvlaki Nazis know that it is well within range of its missiles — missiles that are possibly carrying nuclear warheads.
And if the Greeks’ beloved Islamonazis win, Greece loses. Permanently.
Pangolas seems to hate everyone these days.It is a little ironic how much anti- semitism exists today on the left and yet that is where most Jews find their home.
Good news/bad news. The good news? Considering The Greek economy and the Greek birth rate, within the foreseeable future Greece will cease to exist as another ‘antagonistic Mediteranean state’. The bad news? Actually, I can’t think of any. No great loss. I understand that, according to our esteemed and incredibly intellectual and super intelligent President, the really important contributions to civilization emanated from Muslim lands, not fey whitey classical Greece.
Not to worry. The Europeans are beginning to realize that when it comes to dealing with the Greeks, everybody can expect to get it up the ass. It’s a Greek tradition. Hoplas!!!!!!!!!!
How curious, you think international exists.
While Greece’s economic future is bleak and their life preserver has hole, anti-Semitism has been on display in Greece for a great deal of time Mr. Solway. Perhaps it was your own wishful thinking/ rose colored glasses in not seeing this sooner.
“international exists.” /= “international law exists.” I’ve got to remember not to touch a kbd before coffee.
Being Hellenic, or Hellenistic, can be taken too far. This is what Pangalos did.
As long as the Arab street continues to be disproportionately influenced by the twistedness of national socialism, Greeks had better find their eyeglasses to find Israelis who pay more than lip service to the glory of Athens.
Dear Tom (7)
You are right in a way about the phantom status of international law. There is obviously a common tendency is to regard the issues and provisions of international law as mere legalisms that do not impact “facts on the ground”; yet when adduced against the Israeli brief, they are suddenly transformed into legalities. One can’t have it both ways. This is the essential point. If the concept of international law is to have any meaning at all, if its dispensations are understood to be valid and to apply in all circumstances, and if we intend to be consistent as moral agents and political actors, then we have no option but to accept the conclusion that Israel is not an “occupying power,” that the territories in question are its legitimate possession, and that it has every right to dispose of these lands as it sees fit. If we reject this conclusion, not to put too fine a point on it, we are merely cynics wedded to the politics of expediency or temporizers divorced from the dictates of conscience. Cosi fan tutte, perhaps; nevertheless, it remains a scandal. To reiterate, international law is international law; it cannot be applied unevenly or preferentially without damaging or abrogating the very concept itself. It must be bluntly said that the anti-Israeli consensus concerning the Territories and the Golan is tantamount to the annulment of the principle of law, to revoking what is supposed to be imprescriptible. But Israel is not the only victim of such chicanery; the convention of international law is equally damaged, if not vitiated. So, I concede, you are probably right.
And Paul (6), there is some truth to what you say, except for the fact that I’m not wearing rose-coloured glasses. I grew up in ultramontane Quebec where antisemitism was in the air one breathed, and to this day I bear the facial scars from some of the ambushes that were prepared for this Jewish kid walking to school. Nothing even remotely similar ever happened to me during my various sojourns in Greece from 1967 to 2001, not even verbally. As for the history of antisemitism in Greece, yes, it’s not a very pretty sight, but when compared to the phenomenon in a host of other countries (which I need not mention), I’d take it anytime.
David
there is very few countries left with any leaders of integrity.
they are all tripping over each other to make Israel the fall guy.
The way I see it if Israel falls it will be the beginning of a new dark age for the world. …and things are starting to look dimmer every day.
David …buy your house in Israel, it beats Greece on any day of the week.
David, your dazzling essay illustrates why I believe antisemitism is so prevalent around the world; because when faced with intelligence and cogent reasoning, thugs and subliterates are left standing with their risible opinions in tatters around them, and their only recourse is to muddy the water and then smear their interlocutors. As Nietsche rightly noted, most of the hatred from the Jew-baiting portions of the German populace, and especially the intelligensia, was born from ressentiment toward their Jewish citizens who were culturally and intellectually more advanced than they. When he named Heine as the greatest poet of the German language, you could hear the wurst-and-kraut choking in throats up and down the Rhine. I’ve never met a Jew-hater who didn’t have a massive and very visible insecurity about their own cognitive heft. The Israelis are beginning to see, as Tertullian did in a very different context, “Quid ergo Athenis et Hierosolymis”? Athens is going backward while Jerusalem continues to grow as beacon of scientific and intellectual productivity. Sometimes I wonder if Socrates was Jewish.
The glory that was Greece is long gone. . .She may once again feel the bootheel of islam.Sad that there are no Greek men to take up the banner of national pride and stamp out the islamoterrorist scum and restore freedom. I agree with #10.
The Greeks are lucky that we are not as nasty as Turks are. Athens would have been bombed already, and the Greek Orthodox Church kicked the hell out of here.
“It must be bluntly said that the anti-Israeli consensus concerning the Territories and the Golan is tantamount to the annulment of the principle of law, to revoking what is supposed to be imprescriptible. But Israel is not the only victim of such chicanery; the convention of international law is equally damaged, if not vitiated. So, I concede, you are probably right.”
Were it to be resolved by the international community, by the treaty mechanisms inhering to the UN, that Israel’s proper and legitimate boundaries were solely the boundaries of 1947–would you then give international law the time of day?
Perhaps if Israel were able to see the tragic irony in its foolish and immoral support of the genocical state of Muslim Turkey there would be more sympathy among Greeks. The opposite state of sordid affairs exists although showing signs of fraying.
Tom, treaties may be pragmatically rejected but their content cannot be abrogated simply at will, otherwise there would be no reason to sign them in the first place. Consider the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties convened by the United Nations, signed on May 23, 1969 and extended on March 21, 1986, which states that the termination of a treaty “does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.” Which is to say that all previous relevant and lawful treaties, regardless of circumstances, remain in force as international instruments. The Vienna Convention, known informally as the Treaty on Treaties, subsequent to Article 80, paragraph 1 of the UN Charter, further consolidates Israel’s legal right, already determined as irrefrangible, to the territory which was stripped from it. It is, in fact, the 1947 boundaries which are manifestly illegal–that is, if the concept of “law” is to have any meaning at all.
It is most unlikey that the impending Pacific tsunami will reach Greece. Pity.
17. carla:
“It is most unlikey that the impending Pacific tsunami will reach Greece. Pity.”
OH SNAP! ROTFL
I hate to agree with your assessment of Greece but as much as I love some individual Greeks the country is anti-Semitic, and clannish. At time groups of Greeks have been really been insulting, but when the same people were alone they were more than nice. I wish most of the the observations you made were not true but I have to agree with you.
Jews lived in ancient Alexandria, founded by Alexander the Great at the end of the fourth century B.C. Under Ptolemy II, in the third century, the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, called the Septuagint (Seventy) because 72 rabbis were said to have translated it.
Thessaloniki was a predominantly Jewish city before it became part of Greece in the 20th century. The Jews were murdered by the Nazis in World War II.
The source of Greek antisemitism is, I fear, the Greek Orthodox Church.
genghis @ #3 is onto something. Read Mark Steyn’s piece in NRO on Greece and its low birth-rate. The Greeks will disappear. Unfortunately, their place will like be taken by Muslims. The Steyn piece is here: http://article.nationalreview.com/426405/when-responsibility-doesnt-pay/mark-steyn
PAthena @ #20: Greeks and Jews never seemed to be able to live together very peaceably. See Philo and Josephus on this.
The levels of mindless philosemitism on this blog are astounding. A Greek dares — the gall! — to have a problem with an Israeli and all of a sudden every thing about Greece and Greeks is rotten, rotten to the core, and perhaps the country should simply be gotten rid of. My, my.
The fact is this: people all across the world cannot scarcely hear themselves think for the Zionist hum drowning out their thoughts. I’m not sure how much longer Jews will be able to keep waving their forefingers at people for so much as daring to think that perhaps Israelis and their diehard diaspora Jewish supporters are not blameless and unblemished with the expectation that they’ll acquiesce and toe the line like the zombies they’re thought to be.
@21 PAthena @ #20: Greeks and Jews never seemed to be able to live together very peaceably. See Philo and Josephus on this.
All the fault of the Greeks, of course. Jews ever being culpable for anything is simply a logical asburdity. Only deluded nazis can possibly think otherwise.
For example, one might claim Israel was the aggressor in ’67 and thus has no right to, among other things, the Golan Heights. One’s level of reasonableness can be assessed by their reaction to the claim: it’s either correct or incorrect but an issue which reasonable people can debate; or it’s positively demonic to even begin to argue along such lines, and must be taken as a sign that the Ultimate Evil lurks beneath.
I am not Jewish but admire the Chosen Ones.
What I cannot understand is that the Jewish people all over the world are being betrayed, vilified, murdered and treated in the most horrible of ways by those on the left. Even the liberals in the Democratic Party and the faux Christian President of the USA have turned against Israel and the Jews. Jews are being literally turned out of whole states all over the world.
Yet Jews like crazed people keep on supporting the left and pumping millions into the Democratic Party in the USA.
Are you all nuts or something ? You have no manhood ? You cannot even support policies to defend your own culture and families ? Liberalism is a sin and political correctness has even neutered Jewish men that they support those that would lead them to their own death throughout the world.
That I do not understand.
PAthena writes, “Thessaloniki was a predominantly Jewish city before it became part of Greece in the 20th century. The Jews were murdered by the Nazis in World War II.” Salonika was, in fact, a majority Jewish city as recently as a century ago. The Jews were so dominant in the trade and shipping business that at one time the ports closed down on the Sabbath and Jewish holidays. That dominance faded in the last century or so, and much of that trade was nationalized by the Greeks. A fire that swept through the city in 1917 and the Nazi predations pretty much destroyed that civilization. The Greeks have pretty much wiped that history from what they now consider a Greek city.
Israel now retains the Golan as it has every right to. VP Pangalos indeed manifests not just ignorance but patent hatred. And, yes, Golan wines are rather nice. I visited one of the wineries back in 2005.
Now, I’d like to clarify a few things on this board people are claiming as “fact”. First is the issues with Israel. Now, some on here claim that Israel and Turkey are best buds or something. This is not true. Just look at recently, the events between the Turkish ambassador being placed in public on a lower chair when meeting with Israeli officials. It was stated that the Israelis did this to hurt his pride, and many picked up on it. Second, Israel is a country now. As a country, it has its own faults. First, nothing should have been guaranteed to the Jews by the British in the beginning of the 20th century. Did they forget the millions of people already living there, calling that nation home for centuries? To the Greeks here: how would you have felt if, when the Ottomans took over, they decided to kick the vast majority of you out, wall in Athens, and leave the rest of you without rights. How would that feel? If you are human, you’d be quite angry that you were kicked out of your house for not being of Ottoman decent. Now, getting back on topic, with the issue of the Golan Heights: the entire nation of Israel did not exist prior to 1948. Prior to the 1940s, Jews made up an extremely small percentage of the population. And do not give me the excuse that these are the spoils of war. This was the 20th century. One cannot just expel the majority of a population, and take their land. And about the shellings of the Golan Heights: wouldn’t you fight till your last breath to get your land back? Would you just give up the keys to your house after a mob approaches you for it, and then leave, forgetting about the land your family held for centuries?
One last thing, because I’m sure someone will attack me on this point: I am not anti-semetic. I’m anti-Zionist. I’m all for a Jewish homeland, just not in the way they did it. You don’t take over a nation because your book said it once belonged to you thousands of years ago. They each could’ve just settled there, as other Jews before the 1940s did, and lived there peacefully. There was no need to take up arms.
One very last thing: as to the Greek nation, I say it should support neither Israel nor Turkey. Why it shouldn’t support Turkey is obvious. However, it should begin to look for other partners who follow international law. This list should exclude Israel, Turkey, Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, and a few others.
“I’m all for a Jewish homeland”
Where?
“They each could’ve just settled there, as other Jews before the 1940s did, and lived there peacefully. There was no need to take up arms.”
“They” – obviously the Holocaust survivors this self-alleged philo-semite blames – intended to live there peacefully, it was the Arabs who took up arms in 1948 and again in 1967 with the explicitly stated intention of “driving the Jews into the sea” and “finishing what Hitler started”. Too bad you don’t know WTF you are talking about.
SILVIO
Yes, Nobody should dis the Greeks. They’ve got enough on their plate. Greece is the poster boy for failed civilizations. Ave atque vale. As for Israel, tsk, tks. Those uppity Jews actually learned how to defend themselves, and decided that once was enough. Rubs you the wrong way, Silvio? TS. And as for us diehard diaspora supporters, we’ve learned a bit as well. Particularly when it comes to reponding to twerps such as yourself. Keep up the good work. The musings of dimwits such as your esteemed self remind us of the need for eternal vigilance.
Dear Sylvio (22)
In posting comments to the issue now being discussed (or any issue), I believe two things are of utmost importance, namely, that we do our best to keep a civil tone, and that we make sure we are in possession of the facts, so far as these can be unearthed. The first desideratum takes self-restraint, the second requires time and diligence. In the first instance, I have done what I could to control my indignation; in the second, I have spent nine years studying the material, visiting libraries in various countries, perusing original documents or facsimiles of such, and so on. This is what grounds my inferences.
So let me disclose what I have found to be the case. Only a minority of the present Palestinian population claiming title to segments (or all) of Israeli territory and to the West Bank may be considered as indigenous, the majority having arrived from the neighbouring districts and countries during the early part of the last century, with many of these immigrants having been vilayetted by the Ottoman Turks as a bulwark against raiding Bedouin tribes, to be tallied in future as local inhabitants. But the tenurial claim of the Jewish people is an indefeasible one, based on a founding scripture, a three thousand year hereditament and a continuous presence.
The record clearly indicates that during the British Mandatory dispensation, Arab migrating tribes were pouring into Western Palestine from the surrounding Arab countries without having to produce passports and visas and without having much to fear from the operation of border controls. Quoting prolifically from British internal documents and chancellory correspondence, Joan Peters in her groundbreaking book, From Time Immemorial, focuses on a memorandum which specifies that these newcomers were to acquire, in the words of this document, the status of “indigenous native population since time immemorial.” The official intent was twofold: to give a blatantly false idea of population densities and to misrepresent the Jews as displacers. The post-Balfour Arab intruders were transformed overnight into pre-Common Era householders.
As both Mark Twain and the Reverend Samuel Manning observed during their visits to the Holy Land in 1867 and 1874 respectively, the region was practically deserted and the soil gone to waste. And General Allenby, who conquered Palestine in 1917, found a desolate and sparsely populated “country” comprising only 600,000 to 700,000 Arabs thinly spread throughout the entire extent of what is today Israel and Jordan combined. What Arab propaganda and the terrorist cartels now claim was a thriving, luxuriant and densely populated Muslim homeland was in truth an Ottoman dust bowl. As for Jerusalem itself, according to British census reports, Jews outnumbered Muslims by a factor of two. There is no getting around the fact that the Arab population in the area in the early part of the twentieth century was only a sliver of what it is today and what we call Palestinian society is basically a society of Arab migrants, itinerant workers and illegal immigrants, ethnically indistinguishable from their congeners in the surrounding lands. But these facts are stringently suppressed in the present controversy over the “right of return” issue.
Indeed, the claim bruited by Arab propagandists, Israeli revisionist historians and the anti-Israeli contingent of academics, political commentators and public intellectuals today that the Palestinian refugees were driven out by Israeli forces during the War of Independence is more than likely invalid. Even Sir John Glubb of “Glubb Pasha” fame, the British general of the Arab Legion who conducted a campaign of “ethnic cleansing” against the newborn Jewish state, wrote in the London Daily Mail for August 12, 1948 that “The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war.” And Glubb cannot be described as a friendly witness; he was one of Israel’s most devoted enemies.
Many Arab public figures and news sources of the time were equally scathing; for example, Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, interviewed in the Beirut Telegraph for September 6, 1948, stressed that “these refugees [are] the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state,” the Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station in Cyprus reminded its listeners on April 3, 1949 that “the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees’ flight from their homes,” the Jordanian daily Falastin in an article for February 19, 1949 blamed the “Arab states which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes,” and the Syrian prime minister at the time, Khaled el-Azm, confessed in his 1973 memoirs that “it is we who made them leave,” among a surfeit of such affidavits.
The modern and broadly accepted history of Palestine is a cunningly devised palimpsest on which the original text has been written over and left unread. Our knowledge of the “Palestinian question” derives from the accreditation of a kind of second-layer history. What is needed is a process which in painting is called pentimento—the reappearance of an underlying work which has been painted over. Disciplined study demands that we apply a technique like infra-red reflectogram to the popular documentation that is brought to our attention in order to discover what really lies beneath and determine what changes have been made to the original. In this particular case, the claim that all of Israel is Palestinian land is a historical howler—the truth is that almost none of it is. Indeed, much of non-Israeli territory is actually part of the Jewish National Home, and much of what the Palestinians, a majority of whom were comparatively late arrivals to the Holy Land, assert as their own, across the entire map of the region, certifiably is not.
DAVID SOLWAY
Of coure, you are right. We must strive to maintain a civil tone. I understand that the majority of Jews exhibitted exemplary behaviour on the road to the ovens. Very civil of them. So I will express my appreciation of SILVIO. Just like the human body, the world requires assholes. Ergo, Silvio.
carla writes:
I understand that the majority of Jews exhibitted exemplary behaviour on the road to the ovens.
And what of the exemplary, selfless behaviour of the tens of millions of Europeans (yes, including Greeks), Americans, Canadians that fought to prevent that? Your incivility is appalling and your attitude is abhorrent.
Learn your history or, as the saying goes, you will be doomed to repeat it.
“As you know, your country occupies illegally the Golan Heights who [sic] belong to Syria”
Yeah, right. The Muslim colonialists and imperialists have as much right to the Golan Heights and ALL of Syria as the Muslims had to Greece (which the Turks ruled for almost 400 years).
Which is no right at all.
It isn’t their land, never was their land, and never will be their land.
Dave Surls:
This is false. Arabs had that land for centuries (at least 2000 years). Anyway, where’s the archaeological evidence of that land belonging to Jews? Look at all the historical artifacts you can find in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, etc. that tell of Arabs living there. Where is the same for Jews being there? None.
And if you disagree with the above sentiment, then consider this: who inhabited the Golan Heights 50 years ago? 100 years ago? 1000 years ago? THE ARABS. So please, do not tell me that Israelis have any legitimate claim to the Golan, other than that they took it over, claiming it as a spoil of war. And another thing: the situation of Greece being under Turkish rule is a strong parallel to the Golan and Palestine being under Israeli rule. The only difference is that at least the Turks took it over through military campaigns , and still allowed the locals to lead semi-normal lives after they took it over. However, this is impossible for an Arab to do in Israel.
And David Solway: Montana would be considered sparsely populated. What if it was taken over by Canada? Or if Idaho was occupied? or the real dust bowl of Oklahoma was occupied? I’m sure Americans would be up in arms, fighting off the Canadians.
David Rosen: Ok, you made a point. So tell me, why didn’t Britain, who made such a courageous promise, take in the Jews? Why didn’t America offer up some of her land? Oh yeah, thats right! We had the white-paper documents, banning them from our lands! And please, don’t let us forget the bombing of the Kind David Hotel! That, by definition, was an act of terrorism, yet Israelis celebrate it! And these census numbers you bring up are quite false. Such records are quite erroneous. Also, even if by some chance, in some areas Jews outnumbered Palestinians. I’m sure there are some towns in America where Mexicans outnumber US citizens. I’m still sure we wouldn’t let that town be annexed to Mexico.
Even if you still refuse to believe anything I’ve stated, just remember that this is a nation we’re talking about, a nation always acting in its own self-interest. We’re not talking about Jesus. Israel has made several mistakes in the past, and we’ve let all of them slide. We’ve let the Holocaust survivors take over Palestine, watched as they burned entire villages down with a day’s notice, began a pre-emptive war in 1967, set up security checkpoints for Palestinians, walled in Gaza, blockaded Gaza, indiscriminately shelled several towns, and violated international law HUNDREDS of times. In the end, Israel is not a good partner for Greece. Greece, at this point in time, should be trying to mend its relationship with several former Yugoslav republics, and has a golden opportunity to invest in its neighbors, uplifting its image internationally. At the very least, Greece should be looking to fix its internal issues before apprenticing itself to Israel so eagerly.
Mr. Solway,
Many Arab public figures and news sources of the time were equally scathing; for example, Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, interviewed in the Beirut Telegraph for September 6, 1948, stressed that “these refugees [are] the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state,” the Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station in Cyprus reminded its listeners on April 3, 1949 that “the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees’ flight from their homes,” the Jordanian daily Falastin in an article for February 19, 1949 blamed the “Arab states which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes,” and the Syrian prime minister at the time, Khaled el-Azm, confessed in his 1973 memoirs that “it is we who made them leave,” among a surfeit of such affidavits.
Nobody wants to read the truths you set forth. They bleat like sheep, “Palestine! Palestine!” The solution is the baseball bat liberally applied to the skull of the Jew-hater. One should be civil and polite in doing so, but the blow should be hard enough to get the runner to first base. AND THERE SHOULD BE NO APOLOGIES! Then the sheeple will fall silent – or, being sheeple, change their tune to, “Israel! Israel!”
Dear Chris
Aside from demonstrating your profound ignorance of ancient Middle Eastern history, not to mention your facile distortions of modern history, I, for one, am impressed by you (sic) intellect. It was , however, your statement ‘Israel has made several mistakes in the past and we let them all slide’ that struck me as the mark of a mind burdened by too many hours gaming on the internet and in front of the tube, an unhealthy diet, excess beer and nachos, and little contact with the outside world. I might suggest some pertinent reading material to you, but that would be presumptious since I am not certain that you’ve managed to get beyond comic books stage in your education. By the way, perchance, are you a Truther?
Wow, Carla:
Way to behave with civility here!
Anyway, to answer your question: no, I’m not.
Second, are the Palestinians not people? I don’t understand why you stubbornly believe Israel deserves a gold star for its past. Third, I understand you obviously take issue with my opinion. Why don’t you try posting actual facts on here, so that we may at least attempt to have a civil argument?
I have visited Greece many times and was amazed at how much they resemble the Arabs, not just physically, but their behaviour and anti-semitic press surprised me. I have visited that little Synagogue in Chania, which was being maintained by largely non-Jewish, non-Greek volunteers. What a shame that the Greeks have cided with the Palestinians, considering the Israelis were the first nation to send aid during the devastating earthquake in 1999.
Chris
Civility my ass. Your fund of knowledge vis a vis Middle Eastern history, both recent and remote is seriously wanting. And your conclusions reveal an obvious intent. Everybody is entitled to his or hers opinion. Some opinions, however, aren’t worth spit. That’d be yours. Bottom line; the existence of Israel is non-negotiable. If that disturbs you, TS. If Israels less then perfect behaviour bothers you, TS. Save your jejeune ‘arguements’ for your ‘progressive’ leftie compatriots.
Carla:
Bravo. The enlightened Left was content when Israel was a socialist state, and attempted to maintain a moral position that exceeded the rest of the world, particuarly the deteriorating Western Europeans, in the role of ‘a light to other nations’. Playing ‘best boy’ earned them little more than platitudes from the West. And did nothing to protect them from thugs with guns and bombs. But successful capitalism blossomed and the Israelis learned how to defend themselves with a vengeance. Their ‘neighbors’ will never accept them. Better they fear them.
ps: Chrissie…it’s true, you are a putz.
Chrissie, you ask are palestinians human? I don’t know.
Read the Hamas Charter of 1988, coincidentally the same year that Pan Am 103 was bombed. It’s available on the web in English.
Do Muslims consider Jews human and who does the Koran refer to as “sons of pigs and monkeys”?
Continuing the theme that Silvio was alluding to, I’m curious on the reaction to something like this…
109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm
Let me guess, everyone hates the Jews just because and there is no “two sides to every argument” these 109 times?
They blame the Nazis — and the Jews! Losers. and Pigs.
Well thank you Carla for proving you cannot be argued with in a civil, human manner. Sorry if I’ve studied the issue as an impartial observer. Sorry if I don’t pull the anti-semitism card on anyone who criticizes Israel. Sorry if I’m not inclined to worry about Israel and the Jewish well-being before my own.
So, how can we rectify this? Should America and Greece just start shipping everything they produce to Israel? After all, we must prove our worth to them, as Israel is the supreme nation of the world, right? And why don’t we castrate all the Arab men while we’re at it? After all, farming in the Suez area is a crime right up there with murder, right? And Carla, you’ve already whored yourself out for Israel, and I’m sure you donate every penny you make to Israel. Here’s an idea: why don’t you get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich? You’ve already illustrated that you’re unfit for public debate. Thus, you should revert to your natural disposition to make me a sandwich, and hope Israel hasn’t penetrated far enough into you to have damaged anything.
“David Rosen”
Who is David Rosen? I guess it all sounds real Jewish, huh?
By the way, Chris, what say you about the Hamas charter that explicitly calls for the murder of Jews? Not Israelis or Zionists, but Jews? I must admit your last post is a model of coherency, thought.
Gary Rosen:
I agree that Hamas is indeed wrong in calling for the murder of Jews. The Jews have a long, rich history that doesn’t deserve this. And yes, I’ll chastise those who burn a synagogue down just as much as one who burns a tempe, church, or mosque down. It is not fair to bring the war to places of worship. The point is, I agree with several of your sentiments. The only difference is that my knowledge leads me to favor the Palestinian side a bit more. And, I’ll tell you now that I support a two-state solution, with the Palestinians getting back at least their 1967 borders. I’d consider this satisfactory for both sides.
Any reasonable man will describe what Hamas said against Jews as crazy. However, a key point I’d like to make, that I believe many here refuse to accept, is that the Israel-Palestine debate is at a stalemate, because each side is nearly equal (let me explain). The parallels between what each has done (sans the plane bombings) are astounding. Several difficulties the Palestinians are being put through today are the same ones Jews suffered through in the 1940s. The same political tactics the Arabs used in 1948, Israel is using now. The extremist groups of today like Hamas mirror the ones Israel had, and still has. (The I just made was just off the top of my head.)And yes, I realize that the parallels aren’t perfect. I’m just making a point.
Chris
At last we’ve found some common ground. Your suggestion about castrating all arab men was inspirational. Perhaps I can start with you. If there is anything there. After I’ve made your sandwich, of course. As for Greece shipping everything they produce to Israel..well here’s a flash for you data bank..uh…they don’t produce anything. And as for the US – Israeli balance of trade, I suggest that you do a bit more research. After rummaging through you X Men comic collection, try the library. A mind is such a terrible thing to waste.
Ah, Chris, the veil is lifting. You’re also a misogynist.
See Carla, I placed a qualifier in there: the term “arab”. And no, I’m not arab. I still say, if you want to continue with these ad hominem attacks, continue to expect retalation. Also Carla, as long as Greece’s GDP is positive, its producing something. And last I checked, it is positive. Thus, your argument is invalid. And yes, I understand that Israel is a net exporter when it comes to trade with the U.S. In this case, I was illustrating your desires for U.S.-Israeli trade. One last thing: no crusts, and I like my lettuce hand-leafed.
Chris
I figured you were a no crust type of guy. Antiquis temporibus nati tibi similes in rupibus venosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
Primus ibi ante omnis magna comitante caterua
Laocoon ardens summa decurrit ab arce,
et procul “o miseri, quae tanta insania, ciues?
creditis auectos hostis? aut ulla putatis
dona carere dolis Danaum? sic notus Vlixes?
aut hoc inclusi ligno occultantur Achiui,
aut haec in nostros fabricata est machina muros,
inspectura domos uenturaque desuper urbi,
aut aliquis latet error; equo ne credite, Teucri.
quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentis.” (Aen. II. 40-49)
[Then, foremost of all before a great, following throng, Laocoön runs down in ardent haste from the citadel’s height, and from afar cries: “O, wretched citizens, what monstrous madness is this? Do you believe the foe has sailed away? do you think that any gifts of the Danaans are free from treachery? is Ulysses thus known? Either enclosed within the wood Achaeans are hidden, or this is an engine of war devised against our walls, to observe our homes and swoop down upon the city from above; or some trickery lurks within. Trojans, trust not the horse. Whatever it be, I fear Danaans, even bearing gifts.”]
“Why do holders of high office so often act contrary to the way reason points and enlightened self-interest suggests? Why does intelligent mental process seem so often not to function?”
Barbara Tuchmann, The March of Folly (London, 1985), p. 4
chris
‘…the parallels between what each has done ..’???? No kidding. You mean that the Israelis blow up schools, discos, seminaries, shopping centers, and have a policy of intentionally targeting civilians? Oh, yes but…. And the Israelis routinely lob rockets randomly into population centers? Oh, yes but…. And the Israelis encourage their children to become suicide murders? Oh, yes but…. And the Israelis refuse to recognize the right of the Palestinians to exist? Oh, yes but…. And the Israelis have repeatedly rejected any comparomise and every proposed two state solution ever formulated? Oh, yes but…. And the Israeli education system systematically indoctrinates its students to regard Palestinians as subhuman, and promulgates unremitting hatred against them? Oh. Yes, those parallels are truly astounding. It is really terrific that you are favor of a two state solution. But you see, the Arabs aren’t. They’ve made that quite explicit. Any agreement is regarded by the Arab world as simply a tactical move until they achieve the ultimate and oft repeated desire to eliminate the Jewish State of Israel. Here’s a little advice; if on every occasion your putative neighbor threatens to murder you and your children, and fills his house with weapons, rockets, and explosives, don’t invite him over for dinner. Be somewhat skleptical of his intentions. Hope you enjoy your lettuce sandwich. You know, the crust is the best part of the bread.
Genghis:
I’ll run with your metaphor. But first, we need to make this metaphor more factual. So, we all live on this same street. Now, your neighbor’s OK, and you all share the same landlord. The landlords switch out from time to time, each one worse than the last. Then, one random day, a random man off the street breaks into your neighbor’s house, claiming someone told him that that house belonged to his great-great grandfather. That man gives your neighbor the choice to either stay in the house, and be chained up, or to give up his house and live in the alley behind the house. As you may have guessed, neither choice is quite savory for our neighbor. Thus, I ask of everyone commenting here to not only consider the Israeli viewpoint, but to stop and think of the Palestinian one for a second. Now, if you were that neighbor, would you honestly let that person take over your home with no resistance? I think not! Would you just live in that back alley, watching as your neighbor becomes the big man on the block? I think not! However, I do agree with you that bombings and rocket attacks are not the way to go about changing this. On the topic of the two-state solution, BOTH sides need to make concessions. If we look at the PA today, they are quite open to a two-state solution, yet it hasn’t been furthered because: first, this doesn’t satisfy Hamas, and second, because Israel hasn’t shown itself willing to allow for this second state to become a normal state. Thus, both sides share in the blame.
If you still believe that this hatred of Jews is simply indoctrinated into children for no reason, I ask of you to visit Gaza. John Stewart agrees with my sentiment, even though he himself is Jewish. And another thing: Arabs really didn’t have an issue with Jews prior to the 1940s. In fact, even looking back almost 1000 years, history reveals several times when Jews were protected by Muslim rulers, and allowed to practice their religion freely. In fact, I recall Maimonedes being Jewish, and having a successful career as a scholar under Muslim rule.
Again, I’ll repeat: both sides have blame. Sure, some on here can devote their time to dehumanizing one side. We won’t get far this way. I ask of you to please consider both sides in your arguments. Thank you.
chris.
My goodness, John Stewart agrees with you. Well that definitely validates your position. And not to belabor the point, but the Arabs are not interested in a two state solution. They are quite clear about this. Public statements by them to the contrary is soley for the consumption of naive individuals such as yourself. They are absolutely insistent upon ‘the right of return’, which would ffectively erase the Jewish State of Israel. And as for those Jews of yesteryear who lived under Moslem rule, they were second class citizens…living in a state of dhimmitude. And fyi, the concept of ‘Palestinian’ is a modern construct rather than a historic national identity. And if you object ot the relatively short life of the State of Israel, I suggest that you explore the history of Jordan, Lebanon, and the rest of the decrepit Ottoman empire. Israel, whether you like it or not, is a fact on the ground. And it is not going to go away.
Chris
? John Stewart agrees with you? I must admit that I cannot hope to match the intellectual breadth and depth of worldly knowledge of such a preeminent deep thinker. And I betchya that some of your best friends are Jews, eh?? Keep on truckin, fella.
Chris in Phenix,
“In fact, even looking back almost 1000 years, history reveals several times when Jews were protected by Muslim rulers, and allowed to practice their religion freely. In fact, I recall Maimonedes being Jewish, and having a successful career as a scholar under Muslim rule.”
Very well said Chris but may I remind you that Maimonides had to flee his beloved Spain because of the threats from the islamic al mohads ?
Greeks are a confused bunch: a mix of Slavs, Albanian Arvanites, Middle Eastern Orthodox and Turks. Their Church is behind the anti-Israel hate, the same Church that welcomed the Sultan as God’s will and for 400 years helped him keep the population quiet
why you so anthellenic ? what they did to you? or is jelousy for their achivments?
Hooray for Pangalos and the Greeks! Hopefully, they will join a coalition-of- the-willing to drive that outlaw Jewish State out of the Golan and the West Bank once and for all! Boycott Israel, never buy or accept any products from that pariah state!
how funny this dialogue seems just some months after navi marmara..well, carry on posting !i ‘d like to see now what you all think
real life has a funny way of shaping opinions throught time