The Value of Civility on Comment Threads
Several months ago, I posted an item on PJM lamenting the degree of incivility in the comment threads to various articles, and urging the virtues of discretion, courtesy, and, let’s say, a modicum of discursive urbanity. Sheer naivete on my part, obviously, but I figured it wouldn’t hurt to give it a shot.
Since then, I’ve continued to scan the comments and, while finding many of these well-written, erudite, and informative, I couldn’t help but be appalled at the amount of boorishness and pure calumny often cluttering the lengthy caboose to an author’s train of thought. Naturally, the trolls are absorbed in their busywork, serenely oblivious to the shamefulness inherent in their disreputable procedures. Long before I began posting on websites, I’d written a poem about trolls and their congenial habitat, based on the famous Norwegian folktale “The Three Billy Goats Gruff.” “Trolls live under bridges,” went the refrain, and among the various descriptive passages in the poem I compared them to “homeless toll-collectors [who] are always broke and hungry./Sometimes they even eat the bridge.”
I didn’t know how right I was. After all, I was just playing with images and having a good time managing stanzas — one of the pleasures of writing poetry. The aptness of the portrayal came home to me with renewed force after my immersion in some of the talkback trailers on PJM and other conservative sites. The job description of the troll is not only to try and devour the billy goats clattering across to greener pastures but, in their trollish hunger, to disrupt, compromise, or thwart the transit of an idea, to eat the bridge of communicative reciprocity. Once the bridge is gone, all meaningful discussion ceases. Well, that’s what trolls do and I suppose we should expect no different, responding as best we can by building yet another bridge and hoping it withstands the mutilating appetite of the professional troll.
But not every misleading, tasteless, coarse or abusive comment is the work of trolls. Sometimes even the “good guys” tend to fly off the handle. It is precisely here I wish that common decency might prevail. This does not mean that rigorous and principled objections to or amplifications of an author’s argument are ruled out of court. Far from it. Controversy and the clash of opinions are the stuff of intellectual vitality. A perceptive comment, no matter how stinging, can always serve to rectify an error, misjudgment, or ambiguity in an author’s thinking, and I can vouch for having profited from such logomachic rebukes. Nevertheless, there is all the difference in the world between being hammered and being corrected, between indecorousness and subtlety.
This applies not only to the relation between reader and writer, but to exchanges among the commenters themselves, which frequently seesaw on the border between the tawdry and the obscene. I would prefer to imagine that we are all grown-ups involved in the give-and-take of important ideas, not bullies implicated in a schoolyard brawl. I would like to believe that as thinking individuals, regardless of our endemic fallibility, we are all reasonably mature. Let us “savor the indigestible grit of the world,” as the fine American poet Donald Platt wrote in his recent collection Dirt Angels, but let us tell about it with a certain decorum, as does Platt. It would help, too, if our response were leavened by a certain reflection and discernment.






some ppl deserve to be trolled…. have you every read Ron “The Calue” Rosenbaum pieces that he posts on here… their nothing but threats, insults, cheap shots and being a grammer nazi.
Comment threads are no different then any other form of print media…
“Oh, please let him die! Preferably quickly and very painfully.”–A lefty hoping for the death of Rush Limbaugh.
I should be polite to people like that? I should be polite to people who call me “Nazi”, “Fascist”, “Racist”? I should be polite to lefties who describe the victims of the 9/11 terrorists as “little Eichmanns”? I should be polite to lefties who go to Palestine and burn American flags, 18 months after 3000 people are killed in the 9/11 attacks? I should be polite to Mickey Moore after he referred to Baathist thugs who kill American soldiers as “minutemen” while gloating and bragging about how his terrorist pals are going to kick America’s ass?
Surely, you jest.
Left/liberal argument consists of nastily boorish ad hominem attacks when their logic doesn’t carry the day (and, when they’re in power, that turns into gulags and secret police because THEY, not rules of civility or law, are in charge).
No. The left deserves no civility from the right. The left deserves laughter for it’s idiocy and contempt for its theft. There should be no more civility towards the left from America, than a victim has for a mugger.
“Sarcasm is not an expression of mental acuity nor is derision a substitute for parody.”
Do you even believe what you are writing? Sarcasm requires mental acuity and parody is derision.
Amoto quaeramus seria ludo!
I find it increasingly difficult to be civil towards people who aren’t satisfied with federal government taking 1/3 of my labor and a cut of whatever I save. I’ve lost patience with know-it-alls who think I’m too stupid to be a free man. I promise to be at least as civil as our forefathers who started shooting Brits over a 3% tax on tea and a non-responsive governemnt.
“a vast difference between the slovenly butchering of a man, and the fineness of a stroke that separates the head from the body and leaves it standing in its place.”
I agree with most it, but it’s a shame when those who rail against ‘the fineness of a stroke’ have mistaken it for ‘slovenly butchering’.
David Solway is spot-on here even though I see that commenters 1 through 8 do not seem to agree with him. While we may disagree with those on the left, we should not be disagreeable in doing so. At one time I use to comment on Little Green Footballs, and I had the temerity to question Darwin’s theory of evolution. Well, suffice it to say, I know longer comment there because of how disagreeable I found the commenters. It had nothing to do with what they were saying but how they were saying it, in particular their use of pretty unsavory language.
In commenting here, I have called out some commenters, in particular BC, who I observe has become more civil in tone. (Kudos BC.) I also called someone else with whom I agreed but who I though was not being civil (I think to BC). We can make our point without having to use epithets and ad hominem attacks (even though that mibht be what we think in our heart of hearts).
Mr. Solway:
You should read Pajamas Media for articles like these.
Censorship is here in America, and threatening the American People now.
With the totalitarian government actions taking place in our Congress every day, being nice is not going to have any cause or effect, as has already been demonstrated.
Writing in a fashion of Shakespeare or Melville or any flowery poet, will not gain any favor with the tyrants running our government today.
Your article will attract more writers that have a copy of the Constitution on the wall of their den, and know how many people laid down their lives for it, than individuals looking to sharpen their writing skills for the sake of pleasant discourse.
At this point in time, we need sharp tongued individuals to come out and expose these tyrants for what they are and what their agenda truly is, not writers that pen articles for the Sunday Bulletin.
Yes, I remember your article and others like it that have popped up in the last two months. Once again, let me reiterate. Civility is NOT what we need right now in society. We are literally dying from the lack of truth and honesty. Keep your fuk*ng manners. Hitler was a charming and well mannered fellow. Mussolinni was loved and considered a sex symbol and swell guy. The time for civility and good manners is behind us. If you want to remain civil when you are being called a racist AND EVERY OTHER POLITICALLY CORRECT DIRTY WORD IN THE LEFT WING MANUAL OF DISINFORMATION, SLANDER, LYING, AND INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY, THEN GO AHEAD. There is a time and place for everything. This is not one of them. You go ahead and fiddle with manners and the finer points of civility while the republic burns. I will be out there fighting for it and when necessary;taking no prisoners and less concerned with sounding nice and not hurting one’s feelings but rather telling it as honestly and truthfully as I can.
Me thinks thou dost request too much.
Ordinary people are writing more today than they have since the invention of the telephone. A poet ought to be thankful for that alone and take the good with the bad.
Jack writes,”While we may disagree with those on the left, we should not be disagreeable in doing so”.
Stunningly simplistic, childish dribble. Oh, I am sorry…did I offend your tender sensibilities? I thank God that there were far fewer people like you 200 years ago when patriots screamed, “Death to all Tyrants” and “Give me Liberty or give me Death.” Now, will you run off somewhere and hide under your blanket?
I was always told that Sarcasm was the lowest form of wit but performed by those of the highest intellect.
or we could all direct our comments to the article itself, rather than the other people responding to it
Comments 1-8 seem to be concerned with writing the comments. Mr. Solway is concerned with reading them. Not even a troll has any interest in reading the comments left by other trolls. They are utterly unpersuasive; they help drive people who disagree away, but leave them with reinforced rather than challenged ideas.
#10 Cybergeezer talks about gaining favor with tyrants. That’s not the point; tyrants are even more immune to sharp tongues than they are to persuasion. The point is persuading voters; if the tyrants ignore the elections and retain office despite clear results, then bullets not sharp tongues are the recourse.
An example: I fought a local tax in my home town by filing an opposition statement with City Clerk which was included on the formal ballot when the tax was put to a vote. I campaigned against the tax using my website. Then my home was curiously burglarized with nothing taken (to send a message), it was graffitied, there was an attempt to hack my website, and I scared away someone trying to key my car.
Then the local newspaper, in consort with the City Public Relations Officer, named me as the Thorny Rose (town wingnut) for fighting taxes, and invited me to ride in a local parade where I could be publicly ridiculed for doing so. I did not accept the invitation.
Insults and hate mail on websites are minor compared to what the political left will do to fight for taxes. Like Islamists who never have the courage to publicly criticize and ostracize Muslim terrorist acts, the Left doesn’t seem to condemn such actions in my experience.
Since there is literally no means of reaching the brain of the typical ideologue/troll, no logic, no information, no facts, no history, no nothing, it is very hard to pretend to have any kind of civil exchange.
Even when bested in an exchange, they always come back and start over at square one, with the same, unchanged shtick.
Their fixity of mind is depressing, to put it mildly. One might surmise their entire education consisted of being taught what to think, not how to think. Their moral compass is such that they make knee jerk, automatic excuses for immorality & lies perpetrated by “their side” while feigning some kind of outrage at a transgression by the other guy.
Attempts at civil exchange don’t alter the formula one iota.
You’re really arguing with a mindset, not a thinking being.
Why are you lecturing us on civility? Shouldn’t you be on HuffPo or Kos edifying them? Do you think you would receive the same logical and temperate remarks like the ones posted?
Trolls are not here to debate. As others have posted and investigated, the left actually employe posters to effect and incite anger, use obfuscation to elicit frustration and use pedantic tactics and to dissemble and redirect from the topic when all other tactics fail.
I admit I get personal and I am ashamed. I do neither myself or our side/cause any good. Do you think the posters on HuffPo who wish say Rush or Ann would die feel the same after their postings?
Remember the left comes at dialogue as never having been questioned for 60 years and they really do believe themselves to be right. And they know they get MSM backing and cover. Our side is still getting our feet on meeting them in the court of public opinion and changing the minds of America.
So while I think you should be addressing the other side, you have made me rethink myself and the actions I take here. I have learned so much from the posters and writers on this site. Thank you.
This president, and this Congress, with their commandeering U.S. health care, could not take over as large a percentage of the U.S. economy by any other means, other than starting a war, and making conscripts of all citizens.
I have contended for a very long time and believe I have been proven correct, that the Left in America simply can not tolerate being laughed at, and I therefore will continue to mock their every word when necessary.
While it does nothing to change the liberal mindset, it does have the tendency to quickly run them back to under the rock from which they came.
OK — point taken for my own incivility…
Therefore, I apologize for pointing out this morning that Ruben Navarette Jr. is a fat (even though it’s true) and lazy (even though it’s true) leftist apparatchik for writing an entire article based on his watching a couple minutes of TV on Sunday. I apologize for taking PJM to task for publishing Navarette’s communistic illegal-alien-apologizing worthless swill. Finally, I apologize for calling Ruben Navarette Jr.’s writing “worthless swill”, and for pointing out that he is a “communistic illegal-alien-apologizing” propagandist…
Thank you for the not so subtle reminder that those who take the higher road in discourse makes those who assume the moral high ground, with only personal insults in lieu of reasoned argument to support that assumption, appear the clueless baffoons they really are. That said, the tolerance for that type can be grueling. We all recognize the playground bully tactics they employ and also that once a bully gets punched in the face he tends to become less of a prick. Conversely, the more you ignore the more you can expect.
What we might consider is a standard rejoinder to the predictable imbicilic troll puke to which we’ve become accustomed. An example might be something like “we’re sorry, but your comments make it obvious you are here by mistake. This site is for grownups to discuss important matters and your offering makes it clear you are not up to the task. Now run along to the Kos Huffpo sandboxes where namecalling and incoherence are accepted and encouraged by your intellectual equals”.
No, those of us who used to be on the left no how deranged and dangerous they are and will not pull punches when criticizing them.
As a leftist who have no problem working in a daily situation with rightists, I find it peculiar to see so much agression and downright hatred for those who dont think like you do. I partly blame this on the internets, where everybody gets their own echo-chambers and can egg people on to new heights of agression. I was glad to see the health-summit recently, its the first time I have seen a political discussion that was solution oriented and not just another branding and counter branding exercise.
Civility? We don’t need no steenkin’ civilities!
Okay which one of us “rightists” want to blow up Fnord?? I am trying to be more civil… And it su#$s
No civility for closet Stalinists,who have spent the last 40 years slandering/libeling as Nazis,Fascists, Racists,ANYONE who disagreed with them on any issue.Now that we finally have effective platforms in the alternative media we should pay back this syphilitic criminal scum with interest!Stick the knife in the mad dog and watch it howl!
Look at where 40 years of being polite and letting the left have its little temper tantrums has brought us. The time for undeserved courtesy has passed.
“Thank you for the not so subtle reminder that those who take the higher road in discourse makes those who assume the moral high ground, with only personal insults in lieu of reasoned argument to support that assumption, appear the clueless baffoons they really are.”
He is not taking the higher road, Solway’s post is a variation on the theme of concern trolling.
What is more valuable is the left knowing the nature of our regard for them, so even their dim brains can discern the bright lines they must not cross. They are thieves, and there is a limit to the theft that can be tolerated.
There is a brink they must pull back from.
It is more valuable that they know it than that there be some false “civility”.
Our base is larger than their base, and the moderates are leaning our way just now, we should go for the throat and put them down. We can keep the moderates by remembering that liberty is the true conservative value in America, and not any Burkean import–what breaks our knees and pick our pockets is the only concern government can justly have–not any goal to morally improve society, which is outside government’s purview.
We keep liberty uppermost in mind, where it is the Left’s last concern, and we win.
I have posted in other places about the history of Civil War Reconstruction-era engineer Gen. Roberts, the author of Robert’s Rules of Order. He found chaos and mayhem at the meetings that he attended where nothing could get accomplished.
From those meetings, he wrote his Rules of Order.
While he did use a method that was rather stilted (by today’s standards) there are some rules of civility that arose.
First, he required that discussions be focused toward a proposed resolution — a proposed course of action. Second, he required that all commentary be directed to the meeting’s chair and not other participants, except by allusion, “as the Gentleman said . . . .” Third, violators of the rules could be removed from the meeting.
As any attorney will tell you, a rule is not worth spit if there is not a consequence for its violation.
I can understand the frustration of lack of civility and push toward crudeness. I completely share the passionate contempt for Socialistic (and worse) policy coming from Washington and every other failing state capital.
I would be happy to know my allies save their arrows for my enemy, so that I know my back is safe.
Seems to me some of the commenters might reflect more on Solway’s severed head metaphor. The challenge is not to desist from attacking the empty nihilists who seek to destruct the West, but to do it in a way that shows people what we are fighting for. If all you can offer folks is the cry “the scum must die”, well that is only going to motivate a few – I wouldn’t discount entirely the use of that tactic for such audiences, but still… True historical success requires a people who believe they are fighting for the good, and they need signs of what that is. I imagine DS is influenced by the history of Israelite warfare and its self-sacrificing capacity for miracles in the face of big lumps of evil.
Accordingly, DS might have said a little more about our need to make esthetic good shows of our denouncing evil. He might have provided pointers. But people can read many of his other essays.
blotto can I?
well, actually I am not fully up to it. let me at least say:
hey Fnord. the anger and extreme distaste that those of your political ilk experience from those of our political ilk boils down to one major philisophical difference:
we know you see things differently, and see solutions differently, but the final, unacceptable difference is that we are expected to give up our rights and our freedoms and our money to help people who don’t want to accept responsibility for themselves.
until liberals, progressives/whatevers show by example how their solution works, without forcing us to participate, leave us alone.
I think Sun Tzu had it right, we are not interested in glory,,, we are only interested in winning. Winning back our country, that is.
The sooner all the closet conservatives realize that the verbal coal-raking of trolls here serves no useful purpose, and begin to push for real fiscally conservative policies, the better off we will be. I know in my heart that most Democrats are no different than me in that they all have a checkbook that they have to balance each month; why then, can’t they understand that Congresscritters need to be taught how to balance the national ledger? Congress is completely out-of-control. The sooner we administer the coup de gras to the current crop of Congressmen, the quicker we can begin to return to the principals that made America great in the first place. Both parties, Democrats and Republicans need to relearn who they serve. This November seems like a good starting point to me.
I really feel the best way to defeat people whose discourse we find unacceptable is to lower our own discourse to match it. Surely this is the best way forward!
Whenever a man is thinking of expressing himself, shall we say, colorfully, he should pause for a moment to ask:
– What do I want to say?
– Is it informative enough to be worth saying?
– Who is listening?
If the audience is composed entirely of persons who’ve already adjudged you to be either hopelessly stupid or the embodiment of evil, there’s no upside to civility and very little downside to insult. But if the audience contains some number of open-minded and genuinely unaligned persons, it’s probably best to be as gracious as possible under prevailing circumstances.
That “as possible under prevailing circumstances” part is the escape clause. If you’ve already been called “fascist,” “racist,” “Nazi,” “heartless,” “uncompassionate,” “molester of baby goats,” or “Barry Manilow fan,” there’s no exchange of views ongoing with the speaker. It’s unlikely that anything you might say could alter either his opinions or his attitude. What matters is whether there’s someone else listening with whom you can converse to constructive effect. If not…well, allow me to remind you that the best insults are those the target doesn’t fully comprehend until he’s half a mile down the road.
I’d written a poem about trolls…
Priceless!
VoxUnPopulari
Civility? We don’t need no steenkin’ civilities!
Too Che.
Regards
Simon Templar @ #14 (You’re not Saint, I can see that.) That’s what I mean. Yes, I know, we have to be mindful of about what the left wants to do, but so long as we have a civil society in which we can express our opinions, there is no reason to be uncivil as you were in your comments. Remember, at the moment we are arguing with other Americans, who for the most part have our values, although lately I am beginning to wonder (in particular, Pelosi’s attempt to pass healthcare by rule and not by vote). In any case, do not for a moment take my civility as a sign of inaction or pacificism, or where I would be when push came to shove. I am sure the Founding Fathers were civil both to their British overlords and to each other. Yet that did not prevent them from revolting against those overlords and then establishing this great country.
Solway, I appreciate your call to civility, but I have to remark here that in 90% of cases the incivility in the debate between conservatives and liberals, incivility (Internet and otherwise) comes from liberals -
There simply is no other resort to deal with the horde of trolls that used to patroll PJM and other sites of conservative inclination, only to disrupt, insult and obfuscate other than striking back with their own methods -
And in most cases, harsh response in worked/ works – the exterminator’s mallet if you want -
Regards -
For all the talk back and worth…. the question still remains…
Why should comments/comment threads/commentors be held to a higher standard then “journalists” and what they write?
Why should it be expected?
As for 26. Fnord
I have no problem dealing with leftists… its just the knowledge they would put me in a gas chamber if they could get away with it always lingers in the back of my mine…. its also why they can never be allowed to take power….
My dear sir,
What a breath of fresh air you are on this corner of the modern Wild West.
No one — especially us conservatives — must lose, at their peril, the appreciation, and expression thereof, of truths beyond mere discourse. This underpins the heart and soul of all Art.
You’ll agree, I trust, that Byron pegged it, probably for all time, that beauty is truth, and truth beauty. And, actually, it IS all we need to know.
Having SAID that, though …
As tempting as it is to lapse into Bulwer-Lyttonian realms of syntax, I’ve gotta disagree that more is better.
I’m a fan both of the Bard AND of William of Ockham — that is, on the first hand, truth immortal, clothed in words of elegant geometry not still analyzed to this day; and on the second, less is best. Shakespeare put it all down, but the man’s mind was not up to the task of putting it in terms lesser beings could get, without a lot of effort. Every rainbow-spectrum aspect of the Truth was there, in each sentence of each play. In fact, each sentence, itself, was a world of wonder.
But for Ockham, the more we strip away distractions, the closer we come to the Truth. (Billy O wasn’t a poet. But, philosophically, he might as well have been.)
In that spirit, Haiku is perhaps the ultimate expression. But, if you’ve ever eaten at one of those pretentious “nouvelle cuisine” outfits, where you get a stalk of celery, a strip of chicken and a sprig of parsley, and expected to be satisfied, you AIN’T satisfied. “Stripped down” equates to “way too much money spent for some idiot’s idea of Billy Ockham food.”
Okay, spent too much bandwidth already, here —
Thank you for the bouquets you’ve given us, though we may not appreciate them immediately.
And … keep creating.
I haven’t read all the comments, but I can state my position on this topic in two short sentences.
1) If a person wishes to engage in reasonable, substantive discussion, I am more than willing to do so.
2) However, if someone wants to do nothing more than ignore the facts, throw around unprovable assertions, and/or post ad hominem attacks, I will respond in kind.
Simple, no?
¨Sarcasm is not an expression of mental acuity…¨ Agreed. Sarcasm is meant to hurt.
Intentionally hurting another is wrong. I am not hurt by others´ harsh, stupid, ignorant expressions. I am harmed by attacks on our Constitution. I, also, shall listen {for awhile} to crude expressions. I will defend our rights.
I’m all for civility, at least to the extent it doesn’t conflict with (Rob) “Tracinski’s Rule of American Politics: the left must be suppressed, hounded, mocked, vilified, and made to feel ashamed of itself.”
Fnord: Did you notice that your “solution oriented” health-summit resulted in nothing but a continued push to shove Obamacare down our throats? Except for impressing you, it might as well have never happened.
“Intentionally hurting another is wrong.”
If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Someone I think far, far wiser than you said that. Self defense is not merely a right, it is a duty, and the same true of the defense of others. Intentionally hurting some with a good enough reason is what should be done, under such circumstances.
The differences are intractable, it’s a question power. The middle ground is just poison that will kill you slower.
And frankly, if sarcasm is the worst we need to do, then we’re doing pretty good.
I just think that leftists feel really bold when they don’t have to look at you. Funny how they become tough guys when there are no consequences. And on a forum? the worst thing that happens is you get blacklisted and have to create a new profile.
Remember this:The average american leftist male is a pathetic weakling with daddy issues. They would never say these things to your face unless there was a mob of them–and they’d have to have a pretty big mob to get that bold.
The author of the article may be young, or simply have an overly optimistic view of the human race. I have found that I entered blog debates many years ago having far too much faith in the persuasive power of reason in discourse, as well as the ability of civil debate to change opinion.
Marxism is a belief system that resides in that part of the brain where religions live, and debate with these folks is more of a testing of strength than an exercise to persuade. Most people don’t pick a fight with a large muscular man because they know they are going to get whipped. This is not because they were persuaded to agree, it was because they assessed the strength of the other.
See this why some people lose their cool. I DID say I agreed. for the most part. But one commenter insists on lumping me in with the ones who disagreed.
I was merely pointing out that some peps, be they bloggers or commenters can’t take a criticism regardless of the “fineness” or the ‘sloveniness’ with which it is delivered. Rosenbaum is case in point. I have commented many times with no ad hominem attacks or vulgarity and with thoughtful and reasonable remarks but not a one made it past his ‘moderation’. He complains that peps won’t defend their POV but he wont defend his. Call him out, even ever so politely, and he deletes you. Its no wonder there is a lack of civility. One cannot expect to receive civility from those he or she insults from the start. And one can only take the high road for so long.
Having said that, I agree with a number of you, those who start making it personal should get the same in return. I prefer to be civil but when pushed what alternative is there? Taking the high road is lost on trolls and sometimes it just isn’t satisfying.
David Solway could not be more wrong. The fundamental need is to communicate the weight of the issues. When two animals come together in nature there is frequently screeching and roars in order to fend off the necessity for a fight. The more the animals share in common the more sophisticated the information communicated. I had a grandfather on my mother’s side who was a union man and a yellow dog Democrat. He shared the world with me but he never shared my world. He had his own set of facts that did not pan out if you looked at them close. He never learned chess and the kind of “If..Then” reasoning chain it teaches was a kind of mgic to him.
David Solway seems to miss that civil business negations require munch more in common, before they ever sit down. They share an understanding of supply and demand, grasp financial realities, and an understanding of commerce with each other even if they do not share a common language. In a business negotiation even through translators the businessmen will always have more in common than they ever will with “Community Organizers” or other kleptocrats.
At the same time Mr. Solway must realize that the “mutually benefit negotiations” that is so popular among MBA communicates that they are wrong, dishonest and are just trying to get something out of the deal.
Darling Akeelah, don’t fear the rich, pinko kids, fear the homeschoolers and the Indians, Asians…
Guilty as charged. I’m ownin’ this one.
*sigh*
Like in Texas at the bars; When you are checked at the door for guns, and you don’t have one, they give you one.
If you want somebody to listen you don’t scream at them until they run away. You only do that if you want them to cry and follow something you have to tell them. Hopefully we can tell them what we have to say before we make them cry. It would be happier.
All good and fair points, Mr Solway. But the root cause of ill-mannered ranting in the blogo-commento-sphere, where a kind of Gresham’s Law has been at work for years as civil discourse is driven out by foaming gibberish, is easily found: anonymity. People with silly names exchanging abuse with other people with silly names. Sad, really, but it’s hard to see what can be done about it now. A handful of us still use real names, but frankly we are swamped and would generally prefer to have intelligent arguments down in the pub, where we are unlikely to encounter anyone, drunk or sober, called cooldude190 or worse. Pseudonyms? I prefer the expression coined by an American of my acquaintance: nymskulls. Well, theirs is the blogoworld and all that’s in it, and ill is the cess it will bring them.
57
“People with silly names exchanging abuse with other people with silly names.”
In the dark ages, when there was only Usenet, you could actually track down people pretty easily if you knew what you were doing. Most groups were moderated, and most technical groups required a real name and verification of that name. Anywhere there was controversy, though, almost everyone used a nickname of some sort, though, often one they were given by others in groups they frequented. During those same dark ages, it was determined by broad consensus that in the interest of open and honest discussion, nicknames made a positive contribution to open and honest discussion. Especially in those cases where someone in authority over some or all members of a given group (your professor, supervisor, employer, etc.), could intimidate or even halt the career of those discussing subjects near and dear to those in power over them.
The hiding of one’s identity as protection from the powers that be wasn’t based in theory, it was based on the FACT that there were many professors who took great joy in crushing any mere student who dared disagreed with them or offend them in some way. Academics and groups representing them regularly and loudly decried the use of nicknames to no avail, in spite of their great emotional attachment to the idea that they had the right to know the name of anyone who commented on subjects of their choosing. To see that such professorial behavior and emotion is still common you only need go through the email collection that has become known as Climategate.
Now, with basically the entire population on line if they want to be, the same gripe about nicknames arises and usually comes from those inclined to agree with the Professor types on everything from AGW to the right of an elite to limit our access to medical care based on whatever whim they’re focused on at the moment. The use of nicknames may encourage poor manners, but the use of nicknames absolutely and beyond a doubt frees those at risk for speaking out to speak honestly. I prefer the bad manners and possibility of honesty, thank you, even if you prefer civility and the comfort of knowing that lies spread by a controlled media will be preeminent. I suspect that the majority of those who were upset with the treatment of Joe the Plumber and the ease with which the left set out to defame him agree with me and those who think that the uppity peon got what he deserved agree with you.
Have a day
Addendum to rashputin: Professors who quickly run out of time and change the subject when students pose a question that challenges their world view. How exactly does one appeal a B+ or a C grade to university administrators, especially when parental financing and scholarships are at stake? How does a student re-engage a Socratic dialogue and accord respect to zealous, bigoted elders?
Rashputin writes:
> In the dark ages, when there was only Usenet, you could
> actually track down people pretty easily if you knew what you
> were doing. Most groups were moderated…
You have some peculiar ideas about UseNet, very few of whose umpteen thousand groups are moderated. Yes, “are”. UseNet may be dying, but it is taking an unconscionable time about it.
> Anywhere there was controversy, though, almost everyone used
> a nickname of some sort, though, often one they were given
> by others in groups they frequented.
Since we are not discussing UseNet, an area of human behaviour on which I have personally wasted far too much time, I will simply flag complete disagreement. I will, though, employ UseNet quoting conventions in what follows.
> During those same dark ages, it was determined by broad
> consensus that in the interest of open and honest discussion,
> nicknames made a positive contribution to open and honest
> discussion.
And yet there are many UseNet groups where anonymity is a custom more honoured in the breach than in the observance. It is a plain and easily confirmed fact that the likelihood of sense from a poster is in inverse proportion to the silliness of his or her nym. There are, of course, “handles” and “handles”; thus when Gerrit Gerritszoon decided to become known as Erasmus it was not because he wanted to hide behind anything.
> Especially in those cases where someone in authority over
> some or all members of a given group (your professor,
> supervisor, employer, etc.), could intimidate or even halt
> the career of those discussing subjects near and dear to
> those in power over them.
And this both explains and justifies the oceans of ill-tempered, abusive drivel that typifies post-UseNet comments? Cooldude190 lives in fear of expulsion? Even in the kind of academic hothouses to which you allude, anonymity can only be purchased at the expense of authority. What cares Professor Badman what Cooldude thinks? Rats, rustling in the wainscotting.
> The hiding of one’s identity as protection from the powers
> that be wasn’t based in theory, it was based on the FACT
> that there were many professors who took great joy in
> crushing any mere student who dared disagreed with them or
> offend them in some way.
Since you are sufficiently confident of this assertion to reinforce your argument with BLOCK CAPITALS, perhaps you would be kind enough to give an example or two, preferably one that makes sense of “many” and “any” as used in the paragraph above.
> Academics and groups representing
> them regularly and loudly decried the use of nicknames to no
> avail, in spite of their great emotional attachment to the
> idea that they had the right to know the name of anyone who
> commented on subjects of their choosing.
Again, a request for examples. Even just the one.
> To see that such
> professorial behavior and emotion is still common you only
> need go through the email collection that has become known
> as Climategate.
Which has precisely nothing to do with anonymity of any kind, and certainly not with the kind we are discussing.
> Now, with basically the entire population on line if they
> want to be, the same gripe about nicknames arises and
> usually comes from those inclined to agree with the
> Professor types on everything from AGW to the right of an
> elite to limit our access to medical care based on whatever
> whim they’re focused on at the moment.
You may, perhaps, have come across that great book _Straight and Crooked Thinking_, by Robert Thouless. In it, he includes a brief chapter enumerating “Thirty-Eight Dishonest Tricks Which Are Commonly Used in Argument”. Your absurd extension of a discussion on the damage done by anonymity to imply opinions on global warming and Obama’s health care plans is covered by more than one of these, and does you little credit. “Professor types”, indeed.
> The use of nicknames
> may encourage poor manners, but the use of nicknames
> absolutely and beyond a doubt frees those at risk for
> speaking out to speak honestly.
You appear to confuse clumsy invective with honesty. But then…
> I prefer the bad manners and
> possibility of honesty, thank you, even if you prefer
> civility and the comfort of knowing that lies spread by a
> controlled media will be preeminent.
Your use of the word “honesty” brings yet another dishonest argument into the limelight. I prefer what? Number 38 in the excellent Mr Thouless’s list: “Argument by attributing prejudice or motives to one’s opponent.” In fact, I prefer civilized discussion, and I remain convinced that nymskullism is its mortal enemy. You do not have the faintest idea of my opinions on AGW or US health care, and you will not find them here.
http://cpds.apana.org.au/Documents/Crisis_in_GQ/Articles/QUT_Crisis.htm
That is retribution, and it would have been avoided had those commenting made those same comments anonymously. Of course, that is only one, and they weren’t really making their comments on the web, and on, and on, …
Then the documentaries “Indoctrinate U” (http://davidthompson.typepad.com/davidthompson/2008/02/what-to-think-n.html) and “Expelled – no Intelligence Allowed” both mention cases of retribution against ideas not acceptable to the academic community, but alas, those who spoke out were not speaking anyonomously in a comment section somewhere, they were using their real names. Does that mean that mean they could have avoided retribution using an anyonomous name when posting comments somewhere? No, but it does mean that there is a pattern of retribution being taken against even other academics who do not agree with the party line
I’m sorry you missed the word, usually, as I do not know what your opinion is and therefore did not claim to know it.
have a nice day
Your use of the word “honesty” brings yet another dishonest argument into the limelight. I prefer what? Number 38 in the excellent Mr Thouless’s list: “Argument by attributing prejudice or motives to one’s opponent.” In fact, I prefer civilized discussion, and I remain convinced that nymskullism is its mortal enemy. You do not have the faintest idea of my opinions on AGW or US health care, and you will not find them here.
I’ve been thinking your Thouless point and whether I had stated something in an inappropriate way. No, your point doesn’t apply given the fact that it is by definition dishonest to argue that no one needs to post anonymously on controversial topics.
Having addressed your missing the word usually, I just wanted to point out that I do in fact think it is dishonest to completely disregard incidents like Joe the Plumber who had his private records illegally accessed than exaggerated and used to slander him all over the media and the Web. If openly confronting the media darling candidate who at that point is not in control of the levers of power can lead to the results we saw in that case, it is indeed quite dishonest to argue that people have no reason to fear posting under their real names. Since I think you’re being dishonest due to the side of the argument you’ve taken, it’s natural and reasonable for me to suspect your motives, nothing bogus about it since the side of the issue you take is by definition prejudiced against those who fear reprisals.
You or anyone else who argues against anonymous posting is being dishonest with themselves first and those they’re arguing with second. That is, unless they honestly have some reason to want to be able to look up further information about all of those with whom they disagree. (The previous sentence is not an insinuation; it is an accurate description of those who could honestly argue that they do not think anyone should post anonymously given their desire to seek information about fellow posters beyond that the poster wants to reveal).
Perhaps you could explain how people are supposed to protect themselves from the actions of those who do not hesitate to illegally use whatever means they have at their disposal to intimidate those who dare to disagree and then I might be able to look at your point of view in a different light. Since there is no way to argue that persons posting under their real names can protect themselves as well as those who post anonymously, it logically follows that those who are dishonest with themselves and argue against anonymous posting value civil discussion far more than they value the possibility of more honest posting by those who fear reprisals of some sort.
have a wonderful day
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