The Roots of the Obamas’ Contempt
Writing in National Review Online, Michael Ledeen explains Obama’s mindset this way:
He’s possessed of the belief that America has done a lot of terrible things in the world and should be prevented from doing such things ever again.
This belief in the “terrible things” America has done led to Obama’s international apology tour and his quasi-sycophantic Muslim outreach earlier this year. Both these things were direct outgrowths of Obama’s contempt for this country, or what Ledeen refers to as a “hatred of freedom.”
Even more to the point, Ledeen surmises that Obama “rather likes tyrants and dislikes America.” And who could argue? We’ve seen Obama’s fondness for tyrants firsthand through his support of Manuel Zelaya instead of the freedom-starved citizens of Honduras, his adoration for Hugo Chavez, and the fact that he’s trying to “[ease] up on the Castro regime [diplomatically]” without also demanding that Castro give at least a little in return (like allowing “free elections in Cuba”).
Again, it’s hard to think about Obama’s “hatred of freedom” or his low view of common men without thinking of Michelle’s opposition to freedom and her elitist outlook on people as well. Who can forget her words to working-class women in Zanesville, Ohio, during the 2008 campaign, where she urged them to forgo a pursuit of financially rewarding careers and choose instead to give themselves to community work? What was she doing if not asking them to forgo the freedom and opportunity available to them in this nation and pursue instead a plebeian’s life?
Ultimately, like her husband, Michelle has a contemptuous view of freedom and the people it could benefit most because she wants to be the center of the universe. She is a member of the ruling class who can’t go without reminding us commoners of the sacrifices she makes for our benefit. We must remember to bow when she passes by.
I have been re-reading James M. McPherson’s excellent Civil War history, “Battle Cry of Freedom.” Much of the book is taken up with the character and personal qualities of Abraham Lincoln and the way these contributed to his leadership. One quality that McPherson (and others) cite over and over is Lincoln’s sympathy and deep understanding for everyone, North and South, black and white, who was involved in the struggle. It was these warm qualities of sympathy, mercy, modesty and a genuine understanding of “diverse” viewpoints that eventually made Lincoln such an effective leader in our most terrible hour. These are precisely the qualities lacking in the Obamas. Theirs is the elite contempt of the grad school and law school for those not as well-educated. They do not aspire to lead so much as command and, in the case of Mr. Obama, overwhelm by virtue of his “charismatic” presence. They are so sure, so convinced, so walled into the coccoon of their own virtue that it seems impossible for them to even admit the existence of another point of view. There is a vaguely inhumane and dismissive quality to the couple no matter how hard they are try to look cuddly in a photo-op. And yet those old photos of Lincoln glow with kindness and humanity. Lincoln loved the nation depite it’s faults. The Obamas will never see past the faults to acknowledge the good of the nation.
Hello Fellow Texan, Hawkins,
Thanks for your article. There is one thing about Barak and Michelle that observers seem to miss: They sat under Black Liberation Theology for 20+ years with Reverend Wright. This is their belief system and they act on their beliefs.
Any knowledgeable conservative Christian should be able to tell you that Liberation Theology has a different gospel and has different doctrines than conservative, traditional, Christian sects. There should be some good critical analyses available that address the problems with it.
Almost everything you point to in your article can be tied to liberation theology (it has a different flavor in South America). Anyway, if you care to venture into this area, talk with conservative theologians. We have the same problems with liberalism in our churches and different sects as secular society does.
Contempt for war crimes is not contempt for America.
Contempt for America is committing war crimes in her name.
There is no contempt here for America – just contempt for people who call themselves Americans while violating the basic principles of the Constitution.
There is still hope that the criminals may be brought to justice.
Peace.
DS
AWR Hawkins,
As you say, the Obamas are fixated with the notion that America is only as free and prosperous as it is because this has been achieved through the exploitation of other people/nations.
So, to redress this economically, Obama is going to start redistributing on a global scale, chiefly through knee-capping the US economy via cap-and-tax, and politically he’s going to emulate China’s militant stance of non-interference under any circumstances.
Thank you for the link, I think you might enjoy (as in, be horrified by) this gallery of Newsweek’s 29 covers featuring the Obamas:
http://trackacrat.com/2009/10/09/5007/
They are definately new to the country, and the world. So, understandably, there is much misunderstanding and malignment and articles like this abound. However, as the years pass, we will slowly begin to realize how human they are, and yes, how little difference there is, between us. Patience is a virtue. And I know most journalists will look back on what they wrote in these days…in future days…they will blush when they read what they wrote, years before, once again.
Let us not forget that it is really David Axelrod as Obama’s brain and mouth who is running the Administration. Where is the information on him and how has his money grubbing/marketing background, not to mention his disabled daughter about which he and his wife are extremely disgruntled with the medical system, impacted his worldview?
People like Axelrod just use shallow, egotistical people like Barack and Michelle as the front men.
Read a little history about the various European royal families …. plenty of similarities.
I see the Obamas’ attitudes and ideas every day. My workplace is packed full of upper-middle-class liberals. Everything is wrong all the time. Everything is bad. History is a nightmare. Western culture is a joke. These people seethe with contempt for ordinary Americans and ordinary feelings such as patriotism and faith. How do I know all this? Because they talk about it every day. Really, they are hateful and deeply unhappy people. They only thing they feel good about is their own virtue.
Palate cleanser:
“O beautiful for heroes proved
In liberating strife.
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!
O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!”
It’s all still true, folks. America is still the best, brightest country on earth. These two boring, nasty people will go away soon, and the people of America will still be who we are.
An excellent article and you’re 100 percent correct.
a pair of narcissists.
or clowns, you choose.
The hatefulness, bitterness and that deep unhappiness is due to not having anything of substance to believe in. Libs are inherently devoid of a real sense of accomplishment and the importance of it.
We find Michelle and Dear Leader relaxing over a snifter of 100-year old Brandy in the Oval Office. It’s late at night, and the moon shines brightly over the reflecting pool.
Michelle looks thoughtfully at the the Washington Monument and wonders,
“Barry, why do they love us? We hate their guts, steal their money, condemn them to third world style health care, and yet . . . and yet . . .” her voice trails off.
Dear Leader smirks, take a healthy swig of Brandy; pauses, inhales deeply from his Kool cigarette, blows a perfect smoke ring at the portrait of Abraham Lincoln that hangs behind Michelle’s chair.
“Michelle my belle, they are sheep. They have been educated in government schools for generations by our puppets. We have succeeded beyond our wildest dreams. It’s over.”
Takes another gulp of Brandy. “They just don’t know it yet. We’ve bankrupted the United States of America. The dollar is worth less than a Mexican peso. All in nine months! Well, it took years of preparation, but . . . how quickly we won!”
Michelle looks dreamily at Dear Leader, murmurs, “Where do we go from here?”
Dear Leader blows another smoke ring, laughs.
“Just wait.”
I tracked Michelle’s America-bashing up to the election at http://www.michelleobamasuicidewatch.blogspot.com. After she moved into the White House, she shucked her image as an embattled, embittered warrior from the Land of Inopportunity and became Michelle Antoinette, the jets-to-a-date-in-Air-Force-One-and-never-wears-the-same-$500-sneakers-twice epitome of glamor and ease.
She went from deriding Americans’ hard work and prosperity to ostentatiously living off it. What could explain this dramatic change? Only hatred.
You really have to hand it to BO and MO: He’s redefined abject failure as achievement–the NPP–and she’s redefined horse-faced ungainliness as glamour. Jackboots at my door in 3, 2, 1…..
I have a mental image of Obama pretending to scratch his nose while extending his middle finger toward the camera. You all know the one to which I refer, it was during his campaign against Hillary.
This is what he thinks of all of us, even his fellow Democrats.
The Obamas are “users”. They relentlessly use the system and individuals to their advantage. Their advisors are also “users” and the Obamas and the advisors seem to have made an agreement to use each other to their mutual advantage.
Unfortunately for them, in life you get what you give. A user never gives and so can never lead, because one leads by serving the interests of your group, tribe, band, company etc. This service can be given in an “alpha” way (see Robert Rogers – Rogers Rangers in the 1750′s French and Indisn war, or Ernest Shackleton in Anarctica, early 20th century)
I think that Mrs Obama always looks like an angry witch because she never gets enough from the people she uses. Mr Obama, until now appears to have been very happy with what he gets from using people so he looks like a jolly fellow. Notice that he’s not so jolly when he doesn’t get what he thinks he should.
This is a long winded way of saying that I agree with the point of the article but would add that a big part of their bond and their disdain springs from their “user” philosophy.
“Using” is not a sustainable method for personal or political survival. Look for the angry witch and her mate to deplete their resources.
DS, all your talk of war crimes and torture is a crock of monkey manure. You scream wordlessly and fling feces at us. Lies used by Democrats as partisan propaganda against the Bush Administration do not impress those of us who have been paying attention for a long time.
You speak of crimes, but the real crimes and criminals are on the other side, among those Obama has fawned over and made apologies for. But he, and you I’d guess, will cringe and toady toward the hard men who use violence to grab power and wealth, and toward the jihadists who want to destroy us.
Poor Citizen,
1. Obama will make you poorer, not richer.
2. Do try filling your head with something other than cotton candy.
The post by Dave S. actually proves how right Hawkins is. Dave cannot honestly engage with the points Hawkins makes so he knee-jerks an accusation of the US committing “war crimes” as if we are Nazi Germany.
This has summed up Michelle perfectly – she is haughty and marked by a sense of entitlement. I am continually shocked that we put these two in the White House.
Obama makes the French look less snooty. There’s no other way to say it. And it has to be his liberalism that makes him so sure of himself, for he has no accomplishments to speak of – no true merit to which he can point to justify the high view of himself. He is America’s great mistake, and he’s rubbing it in.
Well put Hawkins. Obama adds insult to injury with his arrogance. He’s simply fulfilling a dream (his own dream) at the country’s expense. He has no plans for fixing the economy, healthcare, or anything else. He is going to drive them all into the ground while drinking, eating, and being merry.
AWR Hawkins got all wrong!
“Barack and Michelle Obama are bound together in their conviction that certain fundamental American values are wrong and need “change.”"
I understand that the change BO was referring to was to change the Bush administration practices, not fundamental American values.
Why you guys get so confused all the time?
Dear “David S” – What are you talking about? It appears you exemplify the ongoing tendency to blame Bush for everything although Bush has been out of office for 10 months! You also demonstrate skewed view of the Constitution, by hinting that Bush violated it in the War on Terror. Please post the parts of the Constitution Bush violated so we can all see. Thanks.
BO and MO are nothing more than racists, in fact they are elitist racists. David S: I assume you mean after obama’s one term, he and his cronies will be tried for treason, and hopefully executed, right?
So Michelle suggests that rather than going into wealth creating professions, people should adopt the public service route?
Who then creates the money the world turns around? And pays public sector wages?
Is she suggesting communism, because that’s the only answer I can think of?
Isn’t the failure of the Soviet a sufficient lesson to these people?
Obama has filled his administration with those who agree with his warped view of America and “social justice.” It doesn’t matter that Marxism has failed every place it’s been tried. They think they are so smart they’ll tweak it a bit and get it right this time. Marxism makes them amoral which explains the corruption and pedophile friendly elements. With the warped view comes the fantasy world they they operate in which is why they are so incompetent. What they perceive as their strengths are really their weaknesses. Americans tend to be bored with politicians. Now they have our attention. And this ain’t Europe.
Bravo AWR. You cut right to the quick on this one. And your use of plebs is right on: O & M only respect the opinions of the ruling class.
“We have elected the enemy.” Jim Quinn (Quinn and Rose)
Vivo I have hope for you, yet! If what you said is what you truly still believe. Because sooner or later you and others like you will realize you were fooled. One by one as issue after issue comes and goes…sooner or later Pres. Obama will get to one that you care about. The same thing will happen to the news media. First they came for Fox News…….I just hope that there is someone left to speak up for you and NBC by the time it happens. Right now your hatred for GW Bush is blinding you. But time will pass.
Who could know that for twenty years the Obamas devotedly sat in a seat hearing and embracing with great emotional fervor “hate whitey”, “hate capitalism”, “hate America”, and not believe they did not intend harm to the objects of their hatred? Who could be aware of the blank pages that were Obama’s accomplishments and historical documentation and not believe really bad information is not being hidden? Who could listen to his socialist rhetoric, read his books, learn of his past associations and not believe him to be a Manchurian candidate? Obama perfectly assessed the gullibility and stupidity of the majority of American voters. For the Marxist Socialist Media there is no excuse, and their demise is demanded by manifest destiny, as is the deconstruction of this monster that has consumed the government and made the citizens slaves to it. Die, Congress.
We must remember to bow when she passes by.
Well, if she wants a bow, she’s gonna hafta get a lot brighter and dispense with the preachy self-righteous attitudes and the assumption (evident during the campaign) that she has any right at all to pronounce on the character* of Americans.
*lazy, incompetent etc. while her husband (“he’s gonna take you outta your comfort zone” YA GOT THAT RIGHT, MICHELLE !)seemed to like the more erudite “bitter clingers” type assessments
They put a muzzle on Michelle during the closing months of the campaign. She went home to Illinois and was off the campaign trail.
David Alexrod occasionally has some good ideas, and that one, undoubtedly, helped Barack.
Michelle’s more controversial side hasn’t been much in evidence since those days during the campaign. She’s been growing arugula & spending an inordinate amount of time each day with the dressers & the makeup artists.
Her claim to “sacrifice” at jetting over to Copenhagen with Oprah (and Valerie ?) was pretty funny, though, as was the drippy, gooey speech she delivered to the IOC.
I’d say the “roots of the Obamas’ contempt” for American and Americans is not unrelated to the fact that both got into élite collegial institutions (Harvard & Princeton) as a function of affirmative action.
(Michelle Robinson did not have the test scores to be admitted into Princeton on her own merits and, very likely, the same is true for Barack’s admission to Harvard law)
While serving time in said institutions, neither Barack nor Michelle was bright enough to see through the BS élitist crapola that was being pounded into their heads, daily.
Thus, the hugely negative Leftist dogma of what America is, or isn’t, took root in their respective craniums.
Barack had known earlier predilections and influences, such as Frank Marshall Davis in Hawaii when he was a teenager and, later, while playing political games in Chicago, in the days when Billy Ayers was “just a guy in his neighborhood”.
Oh, and 20 years of listening to Rev. GodDamn America must have played in.
You hit the nail on the head, “Banned by Huffpo” (#12). Narcissists a pair, the Obamas contempt for middle-class Americans is evident in everything they think, do and say. The are rapidly succeeding in their efforts to bankrupt, disarm and destroy American might, liberty, prosperity, culture and values, all while adoring masses of useful idiots gather around and lick their $500 tennies.
I don’t believe the American voter is guilty of “gullibility and stupidity”. I believe the majority of people have been living their lives, raising children, shopping for Christmas and in general believed in a basic idea. The idea that no one would be living in America that didn’t like it’s most basic principles. Mr. and Mrs. Obama would tell you they love America, they just have a problem with its history, constitution, capitalism, morals and manners. It is a little bit like I see in some other institutions like churches where someone joins and calls themselves a Christian but they have a little problem with the whole Virgin Mary, resurection, dieing for our sins thing. The idea that someone would live in a country or join an organization and not except the basic principles is shocking to most people. Then the next shock comes when these people say “just because I want to change the basic principles doesn’t make me any less an American(or Christian/Boy Scout/Elk member) than you”. Then they do it, and you are on the outside looking in with them calling you the Anti-American. You can scream “the rules say” all you want and it has happened all across this country in one established institution after another. They tried to tell us in the ’60′s they wanted to overthrow the “Establishment”. We thought they had gone away or grown-up, but they just put on suits, made some money and cut their hair. Like ants crawling up your leg and before they all sting at one time. It is always a shock. But, the ants were there before they stung. You just didn’t notice. That is the American People. Not, gullible or stupid, just living their lives assuming rules are etched in rock. They are awake now.
The media, that’s another story.
@23. HLH:
What are you talking about?
I’m talking about the difference between contempt for America and contempt for those who disgrace her.
It appears you exemplify the ongoing tendency to blame Bush for everything although Bush has been out of office for 10 months!
I would not blame Bush for everything, but I find it laughable that you would suggest he should be held blameless for the crimes of his administration. Is ten months now the statute of limitations for war crimes?
You also demonstrate skewed view of the Constitution, by hinting that Bush violated it in the War on Terror. Please post the parts of the Constitution Bush violated so we can all see. Thanks.
Gladly:
Amendment 4 – Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
(violated by authorizing illegal wiretaps)
Amendment 5 – Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment 6 – Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses. Ratified 12/15/1791.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
(both violated by denying habeas corpus/due process to detainees)
Of course there is much more, and this doesn’t even address violations of treaty obligations and international law, which do fall under the authority of the Constitution as well. But this would be enough.
Peace.
DS
(violated by authorizing illegal wiretaps)
I’ve told you before, peace guy, the Obama administration has retained wiretapping practices under FISA/Patriot Act made during the Bush administration.
Not to mention retention of rendition rulings and practices from the previous administration.
Are you completely incapable of learning anything that violates knee jerk premises of the Leftoid Mantra ?
habeas corpus, as configured in the US Constitution, applies to US citizens and wouldn’t apply to foreign individuals picked up on a field of battle, regardless of how the courts may have been jacking around with the concept in recent years.
violations of treaty obligations and international law
Got specifics ?
You, like your mentor in his various Apology Tours, seem to want to make the United States the enemy. You seem mainly focused on the previous administration, whilst your mentor takes in the broad sweep of American history for his condemnatory allusions.
You, peace guy, need to descend from that vapid and self-righteous pony you ride, the pretend high ground.
Come to think of it, your President needs to do the same.
I won’t hold my breath.
DS – Your list of Bush’s violations of the Constitution caught my attention. I hope you’ve already realized your error before I say it – but the Constitution does not guarantee rights to every individual on this earth. The right to a speedy and public trial, the right to be secure in one’s papers, house, etc., do not apply to battlefields or war zones any more than our Second Amendment guarantees Canadians, Europeans, and Australians the right to keep and bear arms. Honestly, DS, you were kidding when you typed that weren’t you?
In my astonishment over DS’s post, I forgot mention that this article highlights once more what a mistake our nation made in November 2008. We entered into gross error.
Barry was abandoned by Mom and Dad. Raised as a muslim in Indonesia with Mom’s new husband. Shuffled back to Grandma and Grandpa. Nurtured and exposed in Hawaii to Frank Davis Marshall. Scammed Occidental college as a foreign student. Roomed at Occidental with 2 other foreign muslims. Drugged his way through Columbia. Exposed to Kalid Al-Mansour and therefore, admitted to Harvard because of Saudi influence. Off to the cesspool of Chicago politics…learned to hate America even more at the feet of “Reverend” Wright. Embraced black liberation theology. Endorsed his churche’s embrace of the ultimate jew-hater Louis Farrakhan. Made fast friends with America hating Billy Ayers and Bernadine Dorn. Used and then abused now jailed Tony Rezko……Hey, other than that…this guy is as “American as apple pie!”…if the MSM investigated this guy as they did Palin, then he’d just be another Acorn worker.
Obama is a slacker in ruling class clothes. He’s a wanna be who’s never been and this is his big chance. Sad for us, his success marks our demise. That’s why I hope he fails, and why I hope he fails so big that he has to drop the high-minded heavy-handedness and talk eye to eye with we commoners.
David S., International law states that ununiformed persons captured on the battlefield are ipso facto guilty of the capital crime of espionage/sabotage/piracy. Since they are defined as guilty of a war crime, they are entitled to no protection and can be shot on site, even after surrendering. Anything we do short of blowing their heads off is mercy, and yes, that includes torturing them for information, although I’d hardly call putting them through what our own SEALs and Marines have to endure torture.
Great post “Myth Buster” – Much of the kind of fluff pushed by persons like “DS” is the result of ignorance or, as Hawkins said in another article, the result of arrogance. Either way, they not aligned with the facts. It is asinine to believe that we owe terrorists a speedy and public trial or anything else. We make a mistake by even capturing them. They should be eliminated the moment we catch them operating against our military and/or nation.
@36. tanstaafl:
Bush violated the FISA rules regularly, and admitted as much. Obama has done no such thing.
Habeas Corpus applies to US citizens – under Bush, even US citizens were denied this right.
You, like your mentor in his various Apology Tours, seem to want to make the United States the enemy.
No – I just want Americans who violate the laws of the United States to be punished.
You seem mainly focused on the previous administration, whilst your mentor takes in the broad sweep of American history for his condemnatory allusions.
The prosecution of Bush is imperative to international relations. So long as he remains free, our country carries his shame.
@37. Jeff:
Honestly, DS, you were kidding when you typed that weren’t you?
Not one bit. In case you hadn’t noticed, torture, rendition and the lack of due process were not reserved for enemy combatants.
41. myth buster:
International law states that ununiformed persons captured on the battlefield are ipso facto guilty of the capital crime of espionage/sabotage/piracy.
How does that change the status of persons captured away from the battlefield? And how do you know the military has been completely forthright? Do you not understand the Geneva conventions?
The fact is that people were tortured in direct violation of US and international law, under direct supervision by Bush and Cheney. That’s called a war crime. It should be prosecuted as such.
Peace.
DS
The Obama’s hate America—Barack because he was educated to hate it, and Michelle for her own (undocumented) reasons. They are both radical socialist scum.
They are trying to turn the U. S. into the American version of the U.S.S.R. or Nazi Germany.
It will be interesting if President Bush and his people are tried for crimes. That is because Obama will have his turn when he is out of office. Yes indeed, President Obama and his people have continued President Bush’s policies. Sounds like that must be war crimes too then. He can take his place next to Bush.
First of all as an academic let me say that affirmative action students most of them unqualified for entry are given social service passes. They are not evaluated like normal entry students and in almost all cases gravitate to soft courses. Meanwhile a quota system exists for highly qualified students of Chinese and Indian origin who gravitate to the pure and applied sciences. It’s a slow drip type of intellectual suicide.
Second there is no country in the world at present that treats its citizens of African origin better than the USA. Brazil which will host the next summer Olympics has a large African origin population but nary a one is visible in the government or the higher echelons of commerce and industry. The same holds true for the socialist paradises of Chavez and Castro.
When the Obamas visited Moscow the distaste of the Russian president having to make body contact through a simple hand shake with a black man was palpable. Similarly throughout the rest of Europe, the natives talk the equality talk but definitely do not walk the walk. As for the Chinese, Japanese and Indians and assorted other inhabitants of Asia – don’t even go there. Even in the continent of origin,Africa, tribal warfare and slaughter are the norm as is political corruption.
And the moral of the story to this Canadian – Americans of African should thank their lucky stars instead of manufacturing endless grievances to lay at whitey’s door.
Wow, I was not familiar with this site and came by the above article via a link.
What do I find? A bunch of sactimonious, biased, self=serving, blowhards that really appear to have a very narrow view of what is going on in the world and how it connects.
There is no logical discussion, one is only allowed to think one way, your way! It’s easy to pat each other on the back, and slice and dice anyone that dares to see another point of view.
I am neither liberal nor a conservative, just a reasonably intelligent, unbiased observer of what goes on in the world.
My unbiased opinion is that if one wants to truly see what is wrong with America, you don’t have to look too hard. The hate tactics used by BOTH political parties is ruining the country.
If the right is in power, the left tries to rip it apart, and if the left is in power, the left has websites like this one to sell it’s agenda.
All done down and dirty. A reflection on what society has become.
Who loses? The American people. You are all being used as pawns in the game. Divide and conquer. If the masses are warring amongst themselves, you can be guaranteed that Both sides of power are looting and plotting.
It’s ALL smoke and mirrors, wake up.
47. Northerner:
your world view is kind of funny. You are saying both sides are equal but different ?
that is like saying that when one person attacks another and the other defends himself, then both are equally guilty of fighting.
good luck with that
Bush violated the FISA rules regularly, and admitted as much. Obama has done no such thing.
What ? How, when where, what, citations for each claim, please.
(I know you can’t produce them, every time you’re asked for specifics for your big, wide ideological talking points, the upshot is zip, zilch nada)
Habeas Corpus applies to US citizens – under Bush, even US citizens were denied this right.
What ? Who what when where ?
Maybe you could try dancing & spinning faster.
The prosecution of Bush is imperative to international relations. So long as he remains free, our country carries his shame.
This doesn’t even qualify as vaguely justifiable ideological argument.
Clearly off the rails.
And the moral of the story to this Canadian – Americans of African (descent) should thank their lucky stars instead of manufacturing endless grievances to lay at whitey’s door.
Thanks, Millie.
Many African Americans understand the travesty that has been propagated by the race hustlers and race baiters (e.g. the al sharptons, jesse jacksons, louis farrakhans, reverend jwrights) in most cases for the self-aggrandizement, and even monetary profit, of said race baiters themselves.
After reading David S, I needed a shower.
somebody needs to sit down with Ear Leader and the First Harridan at bedtime one night real soon and tell read them this story, so that it may appear in their nightmares every night for the rest of their worthless existence:
There is a story, a joke in some ways, an allegory in others, that dates way back. In it, a British Lord travels to the Frontier West, America in the 1800′s. His horse throws a shoe on the trail, so at the first little frontier town he comes to, he finds a blacksmith’s shop to have the shoe replaced. As he rides up, he sees a large, sweaty, filthy man hammering on a piece of red-hot iron. The Lord sits on his horse, waiting to be served, but the blacksmith doesn’t pay him any attention and continues to work his iron. Finally, the Lord, outraged to have been ignored this way by an obvious servant, dismounts, approaches the ‘smith, and taps the man on the shoulder with his riding crop.
“You, man!” he barks, “Who is your Master! I wish to have a word with him!”
The blacksmith turns, looks at the Englishman, spits a stream of tobacco juice on the point of the Lord’s boot and says,
“That sumbitch ain’t been born.”
from: http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2003/11/that-sumbitch-aint-been-born-early.html
@49. tanstaafl:
“Bush violated the FISA rules regularly, and admitted as much. Obama has done no such thing.”
What ? How, when where, what, citations for each claim, please.
(I know you can’t produce them, every time you’re asked for specifics for your big, wide ideological talking points, the upshot is zip, zilch nada)
A federal judge in California said Wednesday that the wiretapping law established by Congress was the “exclusive” means for the president to eavesdrop on Americans, and he rejected the government’s claim that the president’s constitutional authority as commander in chief trumped that law.
After The New York Times reported, and CNN confirmed, a claim that Bush gave the National Security Agency license to eavesdrop on Americans communicating with people overseas, the president said that his actions were permissible, but that leaking the revelation to the media was illegal.
During an unusual live, on-camera version of his weekly radio address, Bush said such authorization is “fully consistent” with his “constitutional responsibilities and authorities.
Let me know if that’s not enough detail for you to google it yourself.
“Habeas Corpus applies to US citizens – under Bush, even US citizens were denied this right.”
What ? Who what when where ?
Maybe you could try dancing & spinning faster.
The MCA effectively does away with habeas corpus rights for “any person” arbitrarily deemed to be an “enemy of the state.” The judgment on who is deemed an “enemy combatant” is solely at the discretion of President Bush.
…
In one of the most chilling public statements ever made by a US Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales opined at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Jan. 18, 2007, “The Constitution doesn’t say every individual in the United States or citizen is hereby granted or assured the right of habeas corpus. It doesn’t say that. It simply says the right shall not be suspended.”
Hamdi presents the question whether, and, if so, how long, the U.S. government can detain a U.S. citizen as an “enemy combatant” without formal charges or proceedings. Yaser Esam Hamdi was born a U.S. citizen in 1980, but moved to Saudi Arabia as a child. Coalition forces captured him in Afghanistan, and he is now in a Naval brig in Charleston, South Carolina.
“The prosecution of Bush is imperative to international relations. So long as he remains free, our country carries his shame.”
This doesn’t even qualify as vaguely justifiable ideological argument.
It’s not so much an ideological argument as a legal argument, really. He’s already publicly admitted guilt.
Clearly off the rails.
I’m trying to help you get back on track, but you’ve got to want it, too.
Peace.
DS
Here’s a little reading for you, peace guy.
And, no, I don’t expect this information to penetrate your skull.
OBAMA NOW DEFENDS BUSH WIRETAPS
He’s already publicly admitted guilt.
wot ?
Pretty thin claim if your argument is that GWB merits prosecution for legal technicalities involving Hamdi’s status. Not a snowball’s chance in hell that even the diehard ideologue Eric Holder will buy that one.
You really do need to get off those crazy websites and grow a few more neurons.
Whether Obama is proud of the USA or not is a moot point really. What is in no doubt is that America is a great democracy for giving Obama a stint at the Presidency. As the President is an intelligent man I expect him to change his views as he tugs at the strings of politics. His message during the Presidential campaign was good enough to take him to the Presidency but he would learn soon that redistributive justice does not work because the institutional mechanisms for ensuring redistribution be if of health care or of jobs through bale-outs do not deliver. Market solutions may be imperfect, but they are less imperfect than the debilitating and freedom limiting imperfections that redistributive justice introduces.
@53. tanstaafl:
OBAMA NOW DEFENDS BUSH WIRETAPS
Yes, the Justice Department is continuing to do the job of defending the US government. How is this news? What makes you think this contradicts anything else I have written here? This is just more evidence of the illegal activities of the previous administration. When the government loses this case, it will solidify the argument for prosecuting Bush & co. Give it time.
I don’t think you’ve addressed the underlying charges, which still stand – Bush acted outside his Presidential authority, and authorized wiretaps and torture. There is no basis in law for his actions.
Peace.
DS
Ione at 34: Very good, I agree.
The Obamas are curiously contemptuous of American values. How bitter must you be to be blind to goodness?
How do you do that, David S ?
Wiretapping practices for which you judge GWB criminally liable (“violated by authorizing illegal wiretaps”), you now decree OK in the name of “defending the US government” (whatever that phrase means, since the purpose of wiretapping in the age of terrorism is the protection of the American people)
I’d think your ole brain would split at the cognitive dissonance.
#47 Northerner – This is your first visit, but you presume to pass judgment? WTH? Just so you know, this is NOT a Lefty site. It is a strongly Righty site. We just have an infestation problem. The Mods need the Orkin man.
#52 DS – I’m sorry, but I refuse to be swayed by a lowly federal Judge in CA determining that the Prez has overstepped his bounds. Only the SCOTUS can do that. Also, so you know, the Constitution specifically allows the suspension of habeus corpus in times of war. Sucks to be Hamdi, but he is a traitor to his country. I hope they prosecute and summarilly shoot the sorry so-and-so.
Furthermore, Gonzales’ statement was merely a correction of the language being used and the presumptions thus being made. Read the paragraph again. It is merely specification. Naught else.
Bush’s actions were legal. The wiretappings are legal and have been upheld. You like to use outdated studies and rulings and other things to bolster your flaccid arguments. Revealing the methods we use, if the knowlefge of them was classified, is illegal. Once again, Bush was right.
Finally, this is nothing more than your usual hijacking of the thread, as it is grossly off-topic. The Mods should purge your comments. In fact, you should be banned from here period, as you consistently violate the posted rules.
#57 BackwardsBoy – The Devil knew God, the Ultimate Good, and He revolted against the Lord. Blindness is blindness. It is absolute.
As to the article, of course they act like Lord and Lady Obama. Anyone from the Left does the same. They believe in the role of the government. When they believe this way and they come to power, they are elites… aristocrats. Wherefore should they not act as befits their now exalted station?
This is the inherent problem of “government is good”. It exalts the power of the government over the governed. The main reason the Statists deny God is because it posits a Higher Power than government. We are all equal in His eyes. No worm is higher than the next, however much he so presumes. Keeps us all humble. Without a true belief in God in society, the worms are free to presume.
We are endowed by our Creator (God) with unalienable human rights. Without God, the Higher Authority, we have no inherent human rights. Disabuse the people of this notion of God, drive Him from the public square, and the State can reassume its rightful place as Pre-eminent in society. The worms can then presume, because, after all, without God, they are no longer worms, but gods themselves.
We are becoming a society of lesser gods… a land of Hollywood haloes.
@59. Marc Malone:
I’m sorry, but I refuse to be swayed by a lowly federal Judge in CA determining that the Prez has overstepped his bounds. Only the SCOTUS can do that.
In that case, here’s the case law from the SCOTUS that you should be aware of:
Rasul v. Bush, 542 U.S. 466 (2004), is a landmark United States Supreme Court decision establishing that the U.S. court system has the authority to decide whether foreign nationals (non-U.S. citizens) held in Guantanamo Bay were wrongfully imprisoned. The 6-3 ruling on June 29, 2004, reversed a District Court decision, which held that the Judiciary had no jurisdiction to handle wrongful imprisonment cases involving foreign nationals who are held in Guantanamo Bay. Justice John Paul Stevens wrote the majority opinion and was joined by Sandra Day O’Connor, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen Breyer, with Anthony Kennedy concurring. Justice Antonin Scalia filed a dissenting opinion and was joined by William Rehnquist and Clarence Thomas. The claimant whose name the case bears, Shafiq Rasul, was released before the decision was handed down.
On June 12, 2008, Justice Kennedy wrote the opinion for the 5-4 majority holding that the prisoners had a right to the habeas corpus under the United States Constitution and that the MCA was an unconstitutional suspension of that right.
Also, so you know, the Constitution specifically allows the suspension of habeus corpus in times of war. Sucks to be Hamdi, but he is a traitor to his country. I hope they prosecute and summarilly shoot the sorry so-and-so.
So you are taking issue with the Supreme Court again? Because that wasn’t their ruling:
Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004) was a U.S. Supreme Court decision reversing the dismissal of a habeas corpus petition brought on behalf of Yaser Esam Hamdi, a U.S. citizen being detained indefinitely as an “illegal enemy combatant”. The Court recognized the power of the government to detain unlawful combatants, but ruled that detainees who are U.S. citizens must have the ability to challenge their detention before an impartial judge.
Furthermore, Gonzales’ statement was merely a correction of the language being used and the presumptions thus being made. Read the paragraph again. It is merely specification. Naught else.
Keep telling yourself that. I can’t see it. Context matters.
Bush’s actions were legal. The wiretappings are legal and have been upheld. You like to use outdated studies and rulings and other things to bolster your flaccid arguments. Revealing the methods we use, if the knowlefge of them was classified, is illegal. Once again, Bush was right.
Bush was responsible for approving illegal actions on numerous occasions, as detailed in the above cases. The wiretapping cases are still going through the court system, and those acts may yet be found illegal. Obama’s justice department is being completely non-partisan in trying to defend the indefensible actions of the CIA, NSA, etc. under Bush. You should be thanking him.
Finally, this is nothing more than your usual hijacking of the thread, as it is grossly off-topic. The Mods should purge your comments. In fact, you should be banned from here period, as you consistently violate the posted rules.
This is precisely on topic. The topic is the roots of the Obamas’ contempt. This is it.
Your call for a purge of my comments is the last refuge of someone who has no response, and is too afraid to admit it. Why should I be banned? I am one of the more civil and respectful commenters in the forum, and bring a perspective that is under-represented. If you want to ban people for violating the posted rules, I’m sure you could start with a more prolific violator.
Without posters like me, this forum would wither and die. Who keeps the conversation lively? The dissenters. You should thank me, and instead you call out to the moderators to hold your hand and protect you from the big bad liberal. You would be better off if you would argue like an adult.
Peace.
DS
Don’t get me wrong, I think Bush was a terrible president who mucked up a whole series of situations very badly… but I’m willing to bet even money that in 2 years the majority of adults who can read and write will be missing the old bastard when they get their tax bills and watch the gala celebration of all that is holy about the Dear Leader for his 5000th magazine cover… while Iran tests its first bomb.
20 Vivo,
Troll, time to move on.
22 vivo,
My error #20, I was aiming that at vivo at # 22.
Who keeps the conversation lively?
Not you, sweet pea. You (attempt to) keep the conversation somewhere between tedious and brain dead.
There is no compelling reason to persist in the use of fossil fuels – unless you are making a profit on them.
Then I suggest you give up your fossil fuel based monitor & internet connection forthwith.
It will help with the hypocrisy.
#61 Mr. Schor (aka, David S) – See, now you’re making good arguments instead of just flinging poo.
I agree with the dissenters in both cases. The habeus corpus of guys bearing arms against their own country on the battlefield, sans uniform, still makes them spies and/or saboteurs. Do they have a right to habeus corpus if U.S. Citizens? Yes, but the proper court is a military tribunal (because they were found on the battlefield), not a District court, because the latter path leads to the abuse of the legal system via court-shopping.
Of course, the court system, in order to reinforce its own power, ruled that District courts do have authority. Can the VP veto a bill? No. Only the Prez can. Juniors shouldn’t be able to overrule their superiors in other branches.
Part of the problem lies with the fact that Congress in their war resolution did not officially declare war. Lincoln jailed the opposition. FDR censored the press. No problem. Bush had a gray area with which to deal. I’m firmly against failing to declare war, but going to war anyway for just this reason. The Prez’ power must be clearly defined, especially as to whether the right of habeus corpus is suspended or not. Otherwise, you get just this kind of murky area. Honestly, I think only the Congress should have this ability. It is not clear in the Constitution which branch has the authority.
Bush’s actions do not rise to the level of War Crimes. To claim such is to equate giving a terrorist a swirly with wholesale genocide. I do not hold Bush as being out of line. Obviously, some of the Justices agree with him. At worst, they might be war misdemeanors, for which no case should be brought forth, as they are too trivial to justify the chilling effect on the Presidency. Blame Congress, not Bush.
As for Obama, yes, I do appreciate that he has continued to support so many of Bush’s foreign policies in fighting terrorism… Or, more accurately, Cheney’s policies. As Krauthammer opined, “I’m glad he has proven so broad-minded as to continue the inhumanity and the trampling of the Constitution.”
I hope you offer more arguments like this last. It is good for the debate. Yes, it does make it better, but not when you’re being nasty and sneering.
Yes, your rant was off-topic. The article is about the Obama’s elitist ways. It was not about Bush. Bush could be guilty as you say, and it would make no difference to the article. “Bush did it, too!” is no justification. This is just a red herring to throw off the scent.
Please stay on topic. I’m a reasonable guy. If you make a good argument, I shall listen. Many Conservatives are like me. For us, it is not about ideology, but about right and wrong. Stick to that and you can influence us. Show a little courtesy and respect and leave out the sneers and snark. People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. You’ll never change minds by talking down to people.
@65. tanstaafl:
You (attempt to) keep the conversation somewhere between tedious and brain dead.
Thanks for helping to raise that bar, sweetie. You prove my point.
Peace.
DS
63. Ole Sarge:
“Troll, time to move on.”
Proud ‘troll’.
47. Northerner:
“Wow, I was not familiar with this site and came by the above article via a link.
What do I find? A bunch of sa(n)ctimonious, biased, self=serving, blowhards that really appear to have a very narrow view of what is going on in the world and how it connects.”
You’re not the only one . . .
29. ione:
“Vivo I have hope for you, yet! If what you said is what you truly still believe. Because sooner or later you and others like you will realize you were fooled.”
The right-wing paranoia is infectious for those who cannot distinguish between truth and distortions. Different problems require different solutions, not a cookie cutter approach. That’s why the conservative philosophy is obsolete. But also, I’m not advocating liberal solutions, just common sense.
The growing discomfort I am now feeling from this administration is not only on account of the radical beliefs of the people President Obama surrounds himself with, but the realization that when he speaks, he is never speaking to me.
He speaks only to those who share either similar life experiences or those who have clung to extreme ideologies for decades.People who live their lives secluded among their own tribe. People who are reluctant to rub sholders with the other America. All of these fantasy ideologies have been tested and are abject failures. I can only conclude that this administration and its minions wish to direct and force the US into a similar system failure as well. This is the change they speak of and the hope is their hope-not ours.
I had a recollection a few days ago about some time in the not too distant past listening in on a group of young Marxists at another table explaing how they would begin a plan to bring down the US by bankrupting her with entitlement programs and the higher taxes to pay for them.
This doesn’t sound nearly as unlikely as it did then. In addition, it doesn’t make these statists sound as compassionate and virtuous as they would like to appear to us.
In fact, I think there is something inherently amiss with those people who would pursue an ideological dream of a few to the detriment of millions of people who will never share those same dreams-that same cause.
Oh Please! The wealthy and the powerful in this country are ones who hold the REST OF US in contempt. It is just an odd change that someone in power professes to want to give us anything back. I don’t know that I believe the Obamas, though. They are wealthy and powerful, too.