The Peter Pan Myth: The Real Reason Men Won’t Settle Down
At the age of twenty-six or so, having noticed that he was obviously not a particle more grown-up or less reckless than he had been at thirteen, he had been greatly relieved to come across a newspaper article by some fashionable psychologist saying that adolescence among human males could be a drawn-out process, lasting in some respects and cases until the age of twenty-five or even thirty. This assurance had given him intermittent hope and comfort of a sort until about ten years later, when it had come back to him in a moment of what had been, even for him, an outstanding act of goatish irresponsibility. Thereafter, he had clung to the consolation that there was nothing he could do about it.
— Kingsley Amis, The Old Devils
Just how popular is Kay Hymowitz’s City Journal essay, “Love in the Time of Darwinism,” which decries the phenomenon of marriage-avoiding man-children? So popular that it was sent to me by no fewer than three different friends today (all males) and it’s been featured on two different traffic engines this week: Arts & Letters Daily and Real Clear Politics.
Her brief is actually a mild apology for a previous essay in which she reprehended the jaded and loveless men of my generation for, as she puts it here, “whiling away their leisure hours with South Park reruns, marathon sessions of World of Warcraft, and Maxim lists of the ten best movie fart scenes” instead of humming Cole Porter tunes and throwing their jackets over puddles in the street for their intendeds. Courtship is dead, and mankind may well be facing extinction given how many men refuse to grow up, get hitched, and start procreating. What happened to Cary Grant? He turned into Seth Rogen.
As far as forays into contemporary masculine psychology go, Hymowitz’s essay wasn’t terribly original. Laura Schlesinger caterwauls about the same subject on her weekly radio program (there’s nothing that a little wifely put-out can’t fix), and Caitlin Flanagan has earned a reputation hovering somewhere between Cassandra and Queen Bee for writing about these domestic complications in much more elegant form in the Atlantic and the New Yorker. But what was original was just how much of a backlash Hymowitz herself incited –all of it from the boys. Her inbox overfloweth with righteous invective styling itself as the “Menaissance,” which sure sounds as ridiculous as “Iron John” did in the ’90s, but recommends an altogether healthier program than banging bongo drums naked in the woods. The Menaissance mantra seems to be, “We’re mad as hell, and we’d rather be masturbating”:
Here’s Jeff from Middleburg, Florida: “I am not going to hitch my wagon to a woman . . . who is more into her abs, thighs, triceps, and plastic surgery. A woman who seems to have forgotten that she did graduate high school and that it’s time to act accordingly.” Jeff, meet another of my respondents, Alex: “Maybe we turn to video games not because we are trying to run away from the responsibilities of a ‘grown-up life’ but because they are a better companion than some disease-ridden bar tramp who is only after money and a free ride.” Care for one more? This is from Dean in California: “Men are finally waking up to the ever-present fact that traditional marriage, or a committed relationship, with its accompanying socially imposed requirements of being wallets with legs for women, is an empty and meaningless drudgery.” You can find the same themes posted throughout websites like “AmericanWomenSuck,” “NoMarriage,” “MGTOW” (Men Going Their Own Way), and “Eternal Bachelor” (“Give modern women the husband they deserve. None”).
Web bookmarks no doubt to be shortly followed by “BabyComeBack.com,” “BCWH” (Bros Coexisting With Hos), and “Yes, Dear.” Because who do we think we’re fooling, really? Not Kay Hymowitz, who concludes by acknowledging what most “studies” have found: all Angry Young Men eventually quit the struggle and settle for the safe institution of marriage over the fantasy of zero responsibility (even if it is only in baseball). But it’s her anatomy of why we’re so down on girls to begin with that, whether by accident or design, makes her an enabler for our staying down on them. Namely, it’s all the woman’s fault.
“The dating and mating scene is in chaos,” writes Hymowitz. “SYMs [Single young males] of the postfeminist era are moving around in a Babel of miscues, cross-purposes, and half-conscious, contradictory female expectations that are alternately proudly egalitarian and coyly traditional.”
She says she wants to be treated as an equal, yet she doesn’t want you to earn less than she does. She adores gallantry and chivalry except when it’s seen as misogynist condescension: dare you hold a door open in the wrong setting, and that’s not all you’ll be left holding. She wants sensitivity and good grooming and garrulousness, but too much of that — and she’ll never come right out and say when it’s too much, you’ll only find out during the breakup — and you risk looking emasculated rather than “metrosexual.” When she’s out on the town, is it a one-night stand she’s after or is she aiming to “close a deal”? You’ll never know because as often as you go to bed with a whore and wake up with a virgin, the plot develops the other way about, too. (Don’t blame Betty Friedan. Even Byron warned against “the amphibious sort of harlot, / Couleur de rose, who’s neither white nor scarlet.”)
All this poorly wired sexual circuitry has prompted a return to Darwinian brute instinct. To succeed with women, the SYM has had to rediscover his inner asshole. It’s a good thing he developed opposable thumbs; he’ll need them for all the finger-guns he’ll be firing.
It’s a fun sociobiological thesis, but by Hymowitz’s own admission, it only accounts for a “significant minority” of men in their twenties, erstwhile celibate losers one day futzing with Playstation, the next consulting Pick-Up manuals and self-brutalization techniques for landing Perfect 10s. Even if they’re successful — and most men are not — sport f***ing is still a form of permanent adolescence, and all that those malcontents who emailed Hymowitz are doing is trading one dodge of adulthood for another.
There’s no doubt that fewer SYMs are interested in tying in the knot. In her first “Where Have All the Ward Cleavers Gone?” plaint, Hymowitz provided the declining stats: “[I]n 1970, 69 percent of 25-year-old and 85 percent of 30-year-old white men were married; in 2000, only 33 percent and 58 percent were, respectively.”
But the real question, in an age that cops to an over 50% divorce rate, isn’t “Why aren’t more men getting married under 30?” It’s Why are any?
Not long ago, I participated in a three-way (calm down) dialogue for Jewcy with a male friend who’d just gotten married and had a child, and a female friend who’d recently been divorced (she’s since gotten remarried, but don’t let that spoil the example). The question before the house was: “Is Marriage the New Dating?” My concern, as expressed in the introductory letter and based wholly on anecdotal evidence, was that my generation had not in fact learned from boomer dysfunction that rushing into long-term commitment too soon was as fated for disappointment as the credulous Maxim subscriber. The woman in the exchange, the witty novelist Elisa Albert, had the best alarmist take on the whole sordid mess, having recently extricated herself from one:
The guy in question (my former “husband,” strangely enough) seemed a great match for me. We had the same books, the same taste in music, the same politics, the same lifestyle. We wanted the same things. “Done!” I thought. “Ha! I’m so not ever gonna have to go on J-Date or pay my own bills or plan my own life by myself! Sweet!”
Our relationship was a disaster. The marriage lasted about eight months, if I’m generous with our timeline. The term starter marriage (married less than five years with no kids, and divorced under 35) became popular in 2002 with sociologist Pamela Paul’s book, The Starter Marriage and the Future of Matrimony. (Incidentally, I was perusing the Sunday Times wedding announcements a few months back — yeah, what of it? — and noticed Ms. Paul had gotten married again! Mazel tov! Hope never dies!)
Hymowitz should be careful what she wishes for. At least she should concede that Mr. Darcy, beau ideal of women for centuries who longed for a mythic form of civilized disagreement, was the invention of an author whose view of courtship and matrimony uncovered, in Mr. Auden’s celebrated words, “the economic basis of society.” This is a judgment that has been given a brilliant updating by Laura Kipnis, a third wave feminist whose signals, so to speak, could not be clearer. Here she is in her bestselling polemic Against Love:
When monogamy becomes labor, when desire is organized contractually, with accounts kept and fidelity extracted like labor from employees, with marriage a domestic factory policed by means of rigid shop-floor discipline designed to keep the wives and husbands and domestic partners of the world choke-chained to the status quo machinery — is this really what we mean by a “good relationship”?
I would also add that Hymowitz’s sample pool of arrested development cases is “Darwinian” only in the sense that with a growing population that sees lengthier fertility years, and increased rates of infant survival, more men can afford to go matchless longer and rationalize why they’re doing so. They’re also, whether they confess it or not in their bilious fits of letter-writing, choosier in whom they’d like to partner with, as evidenced by this hilarious fake news segment from The Onion: “Attractive Girls Union Refuses to Enter Into Talks With Mike Greenman.”
As for those Y-chromosomes who would follow the Hymowitz prescription for premature wedlock; to quote an awful film about an imminent global warming apocalypse, save as many as you can.






Nice piece, Mike. I for one accept her apology. I blasted her old piece here:
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/02/05/single-young-males-a-defense/
which was horrendous. At least she’s trying to be fair here. She’s no great thinker but certainly not a sexist leftist so you have to give her that. “the fantasy of zero responsibility” well, you have to be responsible to take care of yourself, lol. Marriage isn’t the new dating, it’s the new bowling–soon, practically no one will be doing it.
Straight men don’t want to get married anynore, and gays are rioting in the streets for the right to be married. Too bad we can’t arrange a trade: outlaw heterosexual marriages and legalize it for gays. Men won’t need to worry about a relationship getting too serious anymore, women won’t need to worry about never getting a proposal, and gays will keep the wedding planners in business. Everyone’s a winner.
it’s the chicks, kay. sorry – it really is the answer, and it really is that simple.
a related query: why does “sociology” always just seem like an excuse to falsify reality? how depressing everything is.
Can anyone explain to me the meaning of the reference to baseball? Here:
The reason men do not want to get married has nothing to do with their maturity. It can be directly tied to the fact that it is almost always a losing proposition for men. Women on the other hand have very little to lose. In almost all cases regardless whose fault the breakup is, the woman walks away with more than she had and the man is left in financial ruin. Worst yet, the man is often saddled with years of alimony/child support payments. While I have no problem with men being required to support their children, why should he have to pay years of alimony to a woman who was unfaithful to him. Before all you women out there start denying that this happens, I have several friends who are paying alimony to women who cheated on them. When men look around them and see what happens to these gullible fools, why on earth would they want to get married?
What, me married?
YES!
The true reason is that there has been an ongoing concealed, systemic effort to stigmatize the men, starting from the age of 2, by decades-long educational, social and technological hindrance of their natural developments and ignore them for the sake of the females. The results? The men of today (age 18 to 30) are not the same kind of men from the decades before 1965. So what happened between 1965 and now? Feminists, radical sexual liberation theorists, leftist/Marxist wonks & academic scholars and powerful entities have conspired to make women more empowered and men less empowered in the years that continue to this day.
Now you see grown, young women (21 to 30) behaving like they are still teenagers, following advices from female celebrities, Orpah, Playboy Playmates (like the Girls Next Door), and female musician stars rather than their own mothers, and have not embrace the role of true womanhood more eagerly. Instead of being faced with the abundance of women for them, the men are being faced with competition for survival from the female species!
Google Dr. Henry Makow.
I kind of agree with Fred. When a woman initiates a divorce, many times she will instantly find “support” from a diverse group of people, all of who have selfish reasons for wanting the woman to get divorced, many times the guy doesn’t have a chance to save his marriage because he is competing with a committee of people who prefer the wife be divorced.
This will sound awful, but those tears on a woman’s wedding day may be the tears of someone who has won a financial lotto, she now has someone to rely on financially, and if the marriage falters, she will be entitled to something every month for quite a while. Not every marriage is this way of course, there are women who put their men through college and then the “man” dumps her, or the woman is the breadwinner and the man just sleeps around.
My theory is it’s all about make-up. Make-up makes it easier for women to bond easier with each other, and once this bonding has occurred, gossip is sure to follow, and I think gossip among women is the number one marriage killer.
These are the men who were born in the late 70s and 80s when society, particularly our institutions of learning, were desperately focused on ‘Reviving Ophelia’. It was all about the girls; empowering the girls (while too often denigrating the boys and their natural differences). These were the hard core years when the differences between boys and girls were thought to be purely environmental and boys were enthusiastically encouraged to act and play more like girls and visa versa. Obviously, nature is not totally comfortable with this.
Dr. Helen has covered the same ground, and the comments are always illuminating. I’m not sure where we will be 1 or 2 generations from now, but for anyone paying attention or participating in the culture and gender wars of the past 40+ years, I cannot believe any of this is a mystery. This is the sexual revolution’s chickens coming home to roost, but it is not just about sexual freedom, contraceptive freedom, and the end of the old dating rituals; it is about financial freedom AND responsibility, academic and business achievements and the related salaries, changes in marriage and divorce law, child support laws, and the resultant confusions and angers from all that. Women are at a place where we can’t go back and we don’t know how to go forward or even what “forward” is. We don’t want our mothers’ (or grandmothers’, if one is a very young woman) lives, but the alternative is daunting. Women are trying to be completely modern and cling to old rituals and beliefs at the same time, which is impossible. This is a time of true confusion and upset for everyone. Men (who are much less complicated emotionally) don’t like it and I don’t blame them – right now I can’t see why any man under 30 or even under 40 would want to get married. All the rules and laws are set against men, while women could not be more contradictory and hypocritical. Many, not all, women want all the goodies and none of the responsibilities. They say they want equality, but watch TV and movies, look at the 2009 calendars on sale, read the current fiction, and observe the culture and women are all about themselves and dissing men. Women truly believe we are superior and don’t need men. This cannot be a good thing.
Men are doing poorly in academia – the higher the level the worse they do. Women are thriving. Check out the curriculums – most of it is irrational garbage, just what women thrive on. Academia rewards them. The culture on campus is virulently anti-male (seemingly everything is about lesbians and men being rapists – Duke Rape Case, anyone?) Watch women’s TV channels and go braindead. It’s pervasive. If I were a man it would truly drive me to drink or to videogames.
No wonder men are revolting from all this. It’s about time. I don’t have a solution other than time, and who knows where this will all end up. I think we’re in a creative destruction phase of culture.
4. Kirk Petersen:
Can anyone explain to me the meaning of the reference to baseball?
If you’ve ever joined or participated in a Fantasy Baseball League, you know the meaning. It’s a blast.
I can’t see the point of getting married in your 20s. You are so limiting your choices in life at a very early age (for both of you) and many people of both sexes have no clue who they are in their 20s. Now I would not necessarily advise waiting until your late 30s as I did, but marrying over 30 seems to be a good bet.
Bernard Chapin – and a damn good response it is. Speaking as someone thirty years beyond the demographic in question I can tell you that working with a lot of folks in that age group has been enlightening. Like the commenter “dan” says, “it’s the chicks”.
I say that having a daughter of my own who has two young children to raise and a husband who ran off once the responsibility got too boring. I wish it were otherwise, but I don’t see how women in that age group ever expect to have a real relationship even though that seems to be all they can talk about. I have yet to run into one of my daughters’ friends or a young woman I work with who when talking about their personal lives doesn’t expect a guy to grant them privilege and deference as a matter of course while at the same time fully expecting to constantly re-negotiate what minor rights they intend to grant their guy. Anyone who buys into that kind of relationship is sorry enough to deserve what little he gets from it.
Regards
I’d like to take issue with Jeff from Middleburg, FL. If I am hitching my wagon to a woman, I want her to have powerful thighs.
My mother has always said, “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free!”
A decided lack of morality is the main contributing factor to why marriage is on the decline backed up by the desire for instant gratification in every aspect of life. Marriage is hard work and the vast majority of people today have no work ethic.
P.S. If you’re looking in a bar for a suitable life partner than you deserve what you get!
I got married at 39 and we just had a little girl this year, I’m 43 now.
Marriage is the best thing that ever happened to me, except for the birth of our baby.
I used to think that being single and “free” was the way to go, because I had been lied to for so long by the popular culture.
It terrifies me to think of how empty and meaningless my life would have been had I remained single and childless. And I enjoyed being single, but to grow old single and childless?
Raising children is every bit a part of man’s instincts and biology as is his sex drive. And in the long run, it’s more of a pleasure, too.
We don’t have to worry about jihad, global warming, or the USSA. We will simply die out due to lack of procreation.
It’s ALL about unrealistic expectations and lack of adulthood on both sides.
If you’re sitting on your butt with your buddies watching CartoonNetwork, you are not an adult. If you’re hanging with your girlfriends and your most serious topic of discussion is affording new shoes, you’re not an adult. Being not an adult is not a lofty goal, nor is it an excuse. It’s just a fact.
Society is supporting a generalized overall tilt towards remaining in adolescence. Like the lifelong hunt to stay 18 is something laudable and to be glorified. From looks to behavior, the grownup is dying.
Sorry, one can talk about the woman’s movement or the men’s movement, or anyone’s movement and it only touches on a part of it. It truly is about a global avoidance of all things adult, unless there is some sort of payment for it.
It was never meant to be easy. It was never meant to be completely fulfilling or one big date. It was never meant to meet all of one’s needs, that is what a balanced life is for.
And if you spend your time blaming someone else for what you cannot do, that makes you basically lame. But it fits the basic picture. Children blame others, adults own their own lives. This attitude is gender non-specific in my eyes. I’ve met just as many adolescent females as I’ve met males.
Baloney.
I’t not just the ladies, and not just the men. It only takes one self-indulgent trainwreck to end a marriage.
There is one, and only one, recipe for an enduring marriage — unselfishness. “Rushing into things” has nothing to do with the question — people who have lived together for a year seem to have the same foibles. You can date for two weeks, marry, and stay (happily) married the rest of your life, if you and your spouse are willing to hew to that simple principle.
There are real difficulties to this prescription in modern life. It’s hard to decide whose career is going to be supreme, and whose will be subordinate (and in any move or job change, this will arise). Money figures large in many divorces. There’s also the constant media emphasis on the “joys” of sexual promiscuity, which may sway many of the weak-willed.
The core issue, however, seems to be that people marry for some sort of self-actualization. This is *idiocy*. Sex, in its primal form, is for procreation (look it up!). Marriage is the creation of a stable situation in which to raise children. Remember those? The future of the human race within your lifetime?
In that sense, marriage is a fundamentally UNSELFISH thing. Even with tax breaks and health insurance sharing, children will never reach a financial break-even. Parents carry that financial burden. Spouses make sacrifices, even of career and position. All members of society in good standing should be doing this, by the way — it’s your responsibility to the human race to pass along what you learned from your parents.
Perfect agreement is not requisite (it’s impossible). Fighting is a normal part of so close a relationship (remember your teenage battles with your parents?) Reconciliation and respect and a determination to love your spouse in all but the most extreme circumstances (abuse, adultery, etc) are things that take *effort* and *determination*, and for which there are no shortcuts or substitutes — but they are the key processes by which a marriage heals itself daily from its metaphorical bumps and bruises.
All the assumptions in this article, and the article it cites, and all the comments I have seen here, are based on a version of “marriage” which has as much to do with the real thing (meaning, marriages that work) as “Desperate Housewives” has to do with gardening. Marriage is not just legally sanctioned cohabitation with tax breaks and stiff exit requirements — it _is_ the process by which these adolescents become adults, if they make it through.
“Starter Marriages” (foul conceit!) are nothing more than shacking up. I’d hazard that people who have come through the stresses of the starter marriage and its dissolution are more likely to be successful because they are willing to work harder with their next spouse — to avoid ever having to go through such a process again. I know several second marriages that took only weeks to form, and which are idyllically happy, because they are so willing to be unselfish.
There are other complications, and other factors which are not addressed by this admitted simplification. It’s not an oversimplification, however — without the unselfishness of a dedicated father/mother/husband/wife, marriages don’t work, and no other factor can make them do so.
So, guys, put away the gaming consoles and internet addiction. Cancel poker night. Banish the porn. Strip away anything from your life that will divide you from your present or future spouse. Man up. Are you defined by your pleasures and addictions, or by your dedication to making, and doing, and being better? Are you willing to sacrifice the fripperies of your daily life for something a million times more fulfilling, in the long run?
If you can do this, you can find a woman who is as trustworthy as you have become. If you can’t man up, you’ll find someone who doesn’t care about the strength and endurance of their family as well — and you’ll deserve what you get.
All I can say is my wife thinks what I have/want to do/plan is optional. What she has/wants to do/plan is the way it is supposed to be.
I got a terrific son out of my marriage, who my wife is in danger of ruining because she is trying to re-live/correct what was lacking in her own childhood.
Oh yeah, then there is sex. Or “the cow” as a previous comment described it. Well guys, if the cow you’re thinking of marrying is promising you more sex, or more of a particular sexual activity than you get from Bessy before you are married, run don’t walk away.
We have a half-million-dollar house filling up with junk, magazines, and catalogs because she can’t throw anything away. Our marriage counselor (which she picked) suggested my wife wasn’t keeping up her end of the marriage contract, and my wife simply stopped attending the counseling sessions.
What, me bitter?
Anyone who thinks the problem is just with women is deluded. I have four sisters, so I have seen divorce from the other side. One ex-brother-in-law was a drug-addicted wife beater, two were philanderers (one of which had screwed eleven different women while married), another was hooked on painkillers. Only in the latter case was there infidelity on the woman’s part, and that was because the husband had completely checked out on the marriage.
Alimony? As if. They were lucky to get child support.
I’m not saying that modern women are perfect, but the immaturity cuts across the board. It doesn’t reside in one sex. Women are not the only ones who think they ought to be taken care of.
I’m going to be entirely serious for a change and say I have my own theory on this.
I think keeping young men in school too long and pressure from various sources to shun the uncool company of older men has a lot to do with it.
Most of my friends and I left shhol at 16, some of us went into higher education a while later but in the early sixties we could not wait to get out of the highly disciplined, regimented school environment.
Suddenly we were in the workplace, in the company of older men and women who had no qualms about letting us know where we stood in the pecking order. We learned what no school can teach, we learned to be members of a grown up society. Now I find that where, at seventeen, we looked forward to being thirty, now thirty year old men men still act seventeen.
Maybe in my case though following the advice of the 19th century aristocrat Lord Chesterfield had something to do with it. He said: “There is nothing sets up a young man o well as having an older mistress.”
Modern women are more attuned to the “relationship” than the marriage. They have become serial monogamists, tossing off mates like dresses deemed unfit for the party. Men are good at dating, and good at marriage, but can’t play the game of relationship, wherein the rules change at the command of the other player, and teammate becomes adversary without notice.
Re: Marrying over 30
Yeah. And you get to deal with teenagers in your 40s and 50s. You retire as soon as your kids enter the workforce. You have less energy and time. Your life is set around you. Your wife’s body is less hardy and able to deal with the rigors of childbirth and nursing, and the risks of birth defect and loss of pregnancy multiply (assuming you haven’t discarded her for a newer model).
You have fewer children, and are less flexible in teaching them, because your life is set in stone. Since you’re successful and well-off, your kids never know even a moment’s deprivation or lack — what will they ever learn about hardship until they leave your home?
Your grandkids will only know a retiree, headed fast toward the grave — not a vital and influential force in their lives. Your generation gap will be far worse that that which the Boomers felt with their parents as well — you will have a harder time bridging that gap to really bond even with your kids. You will be out of date.
I know that many have no other option. Those who choose it for convenience, however, will have these objective conditions with which to deal. No, you will not be a “hip grandpa” by default.
I started my family early for these reasons. I got my education (including graduate) and had a family at the same time. It works fine. I knew that because I saw my dad do the same thing. I remember his PhD, and his lab at grad school. My kids have vibrant and involved grandparents, and so will their kids — and they’ll learn form us and them how families are done.
The reason men are not getting married is they sense the contract is stacked against them. The end result of the women’s liberation movement is the destrucion of marriage in the one woman, one man form. The liberated woman has convinced men that women view him as an enemy to be conquered and broken.
The men actually are acting like adults in that they percieve the risk of marriage with the high probability of a negative outcome. Also, most divorces are filed by the woman because it is profitable to her. Women are far more likely to give up on a troubled marriage because they have no downside. It is in their favor to file for divorce and let the state beat the man into financial submission to pay the ex-wife dividends.
Men don’t want to marry because they are terrified.
There’s one thing that isn’t getting enough attention here: Foreign women from many countries are exceptional alternatives to American women. I’d recommend particularly women from Eastern Europe and some countries in Latin America.
My wife is a Romanian engineer and has it all — she’s gorgeous, in excellent health (lots of walking and hiking), has a traditional upbringing, motherly instincts, extremely smart and witty. Eastern Europe is loaded with unusually high numbers of well educated women (we’re talking engineers, doctors, economists, etc.) who are comfortable in traditional roles and still have that nurturing maternal warmth that American women have lost. American women are not the only game in town. Far from it. Outsource your dating.
Check out http://www.elenasmodels.com/
I had consistently terrible experiences with American women in the past and am very glad I started looking abroad.
Lucy is wrong we will become part of Mexico .I live in Texas and the birthrate for Mexican girls is about 5.3 and they are having them at 16.They have not yet been educated in spanish to hate men.
Men will find that if they wait too long to marry all that will be left are bar tramps, vapid bubbleheads with little education, or divorced women with the possibility of some other man’s kids to take care of.
There has been plenty of evidence lately to show that men also have a biological clock. Older fathers tend to have more children with autism and other problems. There have also be recent scientific reports of male fertility being in trouble for one reason or another.
Sure, men can go ahead and be teenagers for the rest of their lives. Most women who are worth marrying or at least dating have little tolerance for the immature type, though. Marriage to decent women is about the commitment…the trust between a man and a woman. It’s not about money, houses, or anything else. What most decent women want is a man who will commit to her as an equal partner in a relationship. That’s it.
Don’t look for a good woman in a bar. Don’t look for her in a gym. Maybe join a church or volunteer. These are the places you find quality human beings with depth…the ones worth getting to know, the ones worth marrying.
I say blame Darwin. The world demographics are evolving and, as we all know the white European species is on the decline in every way imaginable. Negative birth rates across Europe points inexorably to our destiny in the States, taking into account we are always less evolutionarily advanced here than over there. Many popular depictions of this phenomena, like overweight, fart-obsessed, thirty something cherubs in Knocked Up or Friends or even Seinfield while hilarious, are simply the bell tolling our deathknell as a race and civilization, and our laughter is like the effects of the sardonia plant on its victims – they smiled as they died.
And this is a good thing! White European civilization has been the most violent, hegemonic, destructive blight upon the planet. The picture of the fat, video-playing, testosteroneless languid American male watching reruns of South Park on his soon-to-be-repossesed naugahyde couch is the very picture of hope for the world. No more invasions. no more raping the earth. Not even more raping of womyn. It is likely tall ugly buildings, gross phallic symbols that they are, will disappear too. The world can get on with its communal, earth-friendly, peaceful harmonic leap of consciousness, without the anti-evolutionary Neanderthallic throwbacks blocking the advancement of the human race. What American males that will exist in the future will have William Ayers as a prototype – effeminate, half-witted, squalid and bitchy.
Do I hear an “Amen?”
Times have changed. Men used to own their famiies; they were like property, chattel. I remember when the courts overturned this traditional arrangement in the 1960′s.
As it develops, there is no point in a man accepting responsibility for the care of a woman and child if he cannot own them. Who would have guessed that so archaic a custom as ‘chattel’ would be necessary to the reproductive continuaton of the society.
Not to worry, however. Other cultures, not so sensitive & progressive as our own prissy Americana will soon overwhelm us with by their numbers.
Where have all the Ward Cleavers gone? Well, Ward only existed because June Cleaver existed. Without her, he could not exist. Now, remember back in the 60′s and 70′s when you popped a cap in June Cleaver’s a$$? There you go…
Too far back? OK, remember a couple of months ago when a woman with a career, kids, and a stable, long-term marriage ran for VP and you savaged her as a ditz and a traitor to women because she didn’t believe in abortion? Is it all coming back to you now?
Happily married for three years, my solution was simple- date women who didn’t grow up here. I avoided the bars and did my hunting in bookstores, club (organizations like Toastmasters, not nightclubs) and let my coworkers tied to immigrant communities that I was looking for dates. It worked.
Before that, I’d tried speed dating, dace classes and clubs, the PUA arts (very valuable actually) and not found what I wanted (and been not wanted a whole hell of a lot too, I should point out, as I don’t have chiselled abs or a BMW)
The last bit about the abs and the BMW comes from listening to single female co-workers talk about their dates. These were the items of interest and conversation (what does he drive? Doctor? Lawyer? build?)
I worked for 3 years in the very patriarchal cultures in Eastern Europe. While there, I witnessed the real culture of women-subservience. At times I thought that American women could learn alot from these absolutely gorgeous women, especially in the day of Britney Spears and the American male emasculation trend. Ultimately, though, I wanted the best of both worlds: an independent feminist who understood the traditional role of women in a relationship and could adapt. I don’t think it’s unfair to expect adaptation from women, because I have had to do the same thing in our modern world.(sidenote – I define “feminist” different from NOW).
I finally married at 27 to a dream woman: an intelligent, well-educated, beautiful, moral and very independent woman. A feminist. One who had successfully incorporated the traditional role we [males] eulogize and the modern woman’s role. It’s been 4 years and the first is on the way & I would never trade my life for the very good old days.
I do not condemn those SYMs refusing to “settle” for the egoistic modern female. However, I do condemn the peurile reasons offered by Maxim and its ilk: treat women like crap & sport f***. I submit that Maxim/Playboy’s vision of independent women engaging in sport f***’ing differs not one iota from that same patrician mindset feminists have sought to escape. Playing the role of Britney & asserting “loose” independence does not escape history, it merely reinforces the depravation of women.
fascinating love and alternatives are in a nonfiction book (i listed the website here) titled: “hello my big big honey!” love letters to bangkok bar girls and their revealing interviews.
foreign men in love, and often over their head, write love letters to the most unlikely of women, and reveal many things of what it is all about, and why.
the interviews with the women reveal what goes between them, and where it all can lead.
the website has lots of free excerpts, book reviews etc
11 Craig,
I thought about fantasy baseball because of the word “fantasy” in the sentence, but I can’t figure out what fantasy baseball has to do with marriage.
That’s why I married someone from another country. I get respect and love as well as adoration. When I dated in American Women I got questions about why I was not more motivated to make more money, requests for toys, and a deep seething sense that the women thought very lowly of me in general, even while they were living relatively well off my hard work.
Now that I am married. I can still enjoy a game of world of warcraft, watch lots of south park, she loves it, or just sleep all day long on a weekend.
Hear, hear! Chuckster on that stacked part.
i’m afraid the “where is june cleaver?” question really is the answer.
there is a fundamental disconnect between men and women regarding promiscuity. in my experience, which includes popular and other culture, women simply are not all that bothered by male promiscuity, whether it comes as a part of their intended’s history or where the object of sexual desire is rumored among her peers to be a good lay. of course women do not want their boyfriends and husbands sleeping around, and of course anyone is jealous when the subject of their desire is giving his attention to another.
but the fact is there is something primordial and irresolvable about the male aversion to a sexually promiscuous woman. a woman can be reasonably slovenly, or uninteresting, or a bad cook, or uneducated; she can even be a shrew and unaffectionate. but whether it is intuited as a threat to his gene-furtherance or as a threat to a future family, the promiscuity among women encouraged by popular culture has created the perfect alibi for the naturally more self-preoccupied sex to fulfill one aspect of her natural desires – to the eventual permanent frustration of the other.
of course men cooperate in this behavior – obviously. but that weakness is taken into account by all the social structures that the 60s generation and its heirs have been busy destroying. how did they destroy it? they told women they were unequal, and should equalize themselves.*
well, unfortunately maybe, we are unequal in the way we view promiscuity. this is a fundamental problem that no amount of social engineering or re-education will “correct,” and the longer it goes uncorrected the more unhappiness will poison the public and private lives of this society. sorry, there are certain kinds of happiness that only moral discipline can provide.
* it always bears pointing out that this is a socialist conspiracy – project, if you like.
Since there are about the same number of men and women on the planet, people are meant to go in pairs. Eh? Treat her like you want to be treated and she will treat you even better, and that is a nice way to go. And take your time.
The only correlation I see, in this article, to real life is that adolescence does last well into the 20s for men AND women.
‘Tis a shame our society can’t learn to act like complementary parts of a living machine instead of two mules pulling in opposite directions.
I like my wife of 21 years. Can’t imagine life without her and I consider her my best friend. We both have friends of the opposite sex without feeling threatened because we trust each other. I still have my days out with the boys without jealousy from my wife. In fact, she encourages it and thinks it healthy. I consider myself lucky to have her. She considers herself lucky to have me (I secretly think she is wrong and have often wondered why she didn’t run me off when she had the chance).
Myths about Marriage IMHO:
(1) There is one right person to marry.
(2) Love at first site (infatuation)
(3) Good marriages never have problems and the couples never argue (baloney – they all do).
I feel sorry for the younger generation of young men. There was a time, no doubt, when girls got the short end of the stick. So we overcompensate and now boys have been marginalized for 30 years.
Trust me, there is nothing more dangerous than a pack of young men without purpose. And ultimately, it is women who will suffer the most on account of it.
And we wonder why we have problems?
As a married vet and recent father who has seen far more than my fair share of war in Iraq and elsewhere, I cannot relate to this discussion at all. My advice to young men and women is that they should grow up. Life is short.
kg, good post! I’d just like to add one more noxious female type: the female “caregiver”, who, at the end of the guy’s life, after he’s successfully avoided marriage, family, having a real life, gets him to sign a Power of Attorney over to her, and loots his bank account, drives away his friends, gets him to change his will in her favor and keeps him a virtual prisoner in his own home, until he kicks the bucket, leaving everything to her.
If you wait too long for Cinderella to come along in her golden pumpkin coach; if you postpone marriage forever because it’s supposedly stacked against you,then gold diggers, bar tramps, harpies and, of course, that oh so kindly “caregiver” are what you could end up with.
You have to look for character, not just looks. And you do have to grow up. (Good advice for both men and women).
I have a home in California paid for, money in the bank, no debts, there are plenty of women to date in L. A. why wopuld any sane man give up all that for a creature scientifically proven to be more unpredictable than the weather ? Sir Paul McCartney had to pay 50 million dollars to some one legged chick after only five years of marriage, I guarantee only six months of that failed relationship was even remotely happy. I’ve lived with two different women and the result was the same with both, two happy days for each, the day she moved in and the day she moved out.
@32: Well said. June Cleaver got capped, and that’s the problem. \
I am 36 years old. Why on Earth would I get married? I have my own house, good job, no debt, etc. I could get married one week and the next year have half of what I have now and have my check garnished for child support payments.
What would I get in return? Someone I have to answer to, who has been trained to believe that they need to force their husband to bend to their will, since all women are smarter and more mature than all men.
When a majority of women run something, you can be sure it will be based on emotion, not fact. It will become silly. Look at public education.
I am waiting for women to grow up and realize what really matters in life. Material possessions are simply too important to them. Status, wealth, cache, etc. mean nothing at the end of the day.
Alessandro:
Bingo. The women is presumed innocent and victim, and that leaves only one role for the man to occupy.
It’s very simple. Even if only one in ten men end up getting hosed by the divorce court, most twenty-something men know someone, a father, an uncle, a big brother, a teacher, a friend’s father, someone who’s been through the meat grinder. The horror stories are enough to make anyone with any shred of common sense and self-preservation instinct not want to risk it.
Women complain that men aren’t risk-averse enough. The opposite is true.
Maturity and Responsibilty have gone out the window on both sides of the gender divide. The old saw of men wanting a wife that doesn’t change and women wanting a man to remodel has been taken to even higher extremes. The man now thinks he needs a playboy model and the woman wants to redesign her man into something more effeminate than she is. I’m glad that I’m old and married.
My perspective is that of a male, married once, and soon to celebrate a 26 year anniversary.
For any marriage to work there must be a commitment by both parties. Not a commitment to a “relationship”, but a commitment to the union. It takes work. If words to the effect of “in sickness and in health, in good times and in bad, and in joy as well as in sorrow” are not part of the wedding vow, they certainly need to be. And sincerely taken to heart. My wife and I both have had to keep that vow, even though we never actually spoke those words. Few of the little princes and princesses of today are capable of that, or even want to be.
At a time when apocalyptical predictions are more a part of reasoned discussion than extremist rants, our little princes and princesses may have to grow up quickly.
Traditional marriage is under attack from all sides. Pop culture, some types of feminism, what passes for education today and other influences are only the symptoms. Would be social engineers see the nuclear family was one of the first traditional institutions that must be destroyed before they can remake Man in their image. So called “gay marriage” is part of this effort. Although I am not a believer, I see the religious conservatives as a part of our culture that has not yet been fatally corrupted.
Two words that tell how bad things are:
Women’s Studies
(Your paying for this junk in taxes people — WAKE UP!)
I didn’t feel that Kay’s piece really clarified all that much. I completely defended men after her first piece (“Give Men a Break”: http://www.alarmingnews.com/archives/006909.html) but I definitely don’t like women being “blamed” for men not settling down. We only know that if and when a man meets the right woman for him, he goes gaga and can’t wait to put the ring on her finger. People are still getting married, and nothing seems to stop them. The only thing that has changed is the “when”. Nothing wrong with that.
Very few people really want to be alone. It’s actually quite simple (being happily married since my 20s, I speak from experience). Both men and women want someone they can enjoy. I spend a good amount of time shopping, dining, dancing and talking with my wife. Conversely, she spends time playing games (gasp, even video) and watching baseball with me. I like other things but include her where I can. I do the same for her.
Contrary to a lot of beliefs, this didn’t take a lot of work. It took nothing more than enjoying the other person. This is what we have lost. Today’s youth have standards set for them. Failure to meet those standards doesn’t allow enjoyment with anyone. You can blame it on whatever you want (men, women, isms) but in the end, it boils down to the perceptions we create and perpetuate every day. I’m taking responsibility for my child. An entire generation did not and are now wondering why they are unable to function.
The article states, “To succeed with women, the SYM has had to rediscover his inner asshole.” As sad as it may seem this statement is true. While most women say they want a man to be a good man she contradicts herself by going after the asshole. I am guilty as charged!!! I think it all stems from a lack of self-confidence. A woman thinks she will make herself feel better by “fixing” a man. I have found my self-confidence, later in life after a few failed marriages; I am now only dating good men and it feels great to have a man hold the door for me and treat me like a lady. I also know that both men and women think another person will make them happy…wrong, we must first be happy with ourselves. When two people marry, no matter what their age, if they aren’t happy with themselves they will never be happy and blame it on the other. We need to realize that the only expectation one should have of a spouse is fidelity and respect. We also need to realize that we can’t change someone else; therefore, we should take a lot of time getting to know the person before jumping in the bed. Men and women are different, our brains are wired differently, we should acknowledge that and accept that.
My son is getting married this summer, he’ll be 23 and she will be 22. This was the advice I gave him. First advice, though, was to wait until he was 30 since we change so much in our 20′s.
From eternal bachelor’s blog:
“Girls used to be pretty much groomed for marriage, in order that a man would view her as a potential companion for life, a devoted housekeeper and a good mother to their children. Feminism urged women to get all bitchy and angry, to sneer at the idea of doing anything that constituted ‘domestic slavery’, and to have abortions and shove the kids they didn’t have killed in daycare centres, and to hell with any such thing as ‘fathers rights’ – children now belong to women.
Having largely become too bitter and angry to make good companions, unwilling and unable to run a home (but still wanting a man to bring home the bacon – and the SUV, plasma-screen telly, expensive dresses, etc) and not the sort of women you’d figure would make good mothers to their children, men see sex as the only real thing many young women have to offer. And they’ll happily offer it before marriage too. After all, they’re liberated grrrls.
So men increasingly just see women as sex-objects, because more and more, thanks to feminism, sex is all they have left to offer.”
Also:
“It’s the usual lose-lose situation. If you like a laugh and enjoy video games, women don’t stand in awe of your ability to not take yourself seriously. They denigrate you as an immature perpetual adolescent. And if you don’t care for the career ladder and take it easy, doing an easy job for just enough money to get by on, then you’re a loser not worthy of a woman’s approval.”
There’s also a heavy dose of misogyny, but he’s incredibly perceptive about modern relationships. I honestly never considered divorce and the threat of it as one of the biggest roadblocks to men marrying, but he and all the posters here are right: the way divorce laws are structured can not only impoverish men, they can also deny him any real influence in his children’s life.
Even just things like how women can be at the same time belittling to men and yet demanding them to be prince charming are a part of it.
In one of EB’s earlier posts, he references this article:
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article3283690.ece
the comments there probably would explain attitudes better than anything could.
#43 Nate hit the nail on the head. We are a society of spoiled, egocentric people who care nothing about others, just what makes US happy. If we truly cared about the future outside of ourselves we would be willing to commit to long term relationships not only for our own self preservation but to our offsprings. Nice to know the “Peter Pan” men described in the article will be the role models of so many young men. So much for the self sacrifice eh? So at what age does one actually grow up and become an adult or does one eventually do so under duress when it becomes apparent that their genes will not go on? Sad.
Note to #5 Fred….I do find it humorous that your belly-aching about the prospect of having to pay alimony to a woman after a potential divorce. It wasn’t long ago that the courts favored the male and he could take off into the sunset with his new paramour leaving his wife and kids destitute. I guess you were born into the wrong decade friend.
36. Kirk Petersen:
I thought about fantasy baseball because of the word “fantasy” in the sentence, but I can’t figure out what fantasy baseball has to do with marriage.
The analogy is rather quirky for sure. In fantasy baseball you can own a team, manage a team, do whatever you want- with no real consequences other than for the fun of it.
Thinking Person –
I believe Fred’s exact quote was: Worst yet, the man is often saddled with years of alimony/child support payments. While I have no problem with men being required to support their children, why should he have to pay years of alimony to a woman who was unfaithful to him. Before all you women out there start denying that this happens, I have several friends who are paying alimony to women who cheated on them.
Personally, I think it’s quite legitimate to complain about a situation where a guy is divorced by his wife who’s been sleeping around on him and he has to pay her alimony. Seriously.
My one change in the divorce laws would be this: Whoever initiates the divorce without cause (violence, abuse, unfaithfulness in the other party) will be the one paying alimony. To commit to another human being and then ditch him, or her, because one wasn’t “feelin’ it” is sad, and shouldn’t be rewarded by the legal system as it is now.
Whatever happened to “barefoot and pregnant” as the key to womanly happiness?
Let’s face it, a woman’s highest calling is to make and care for babies and raise them to honorable adulthood. Men can’t do that but he can contribute in one of two ways. They can “find ‘em, f*ck ‘em, and forget ‘em” or they can find a good woman and care for her and their children.
I think that the “Playboy Philosophy” and feminism share the blame for the problems we’re seeing.
So a man marries a sexy woman who can’t cook, won’t clean, and won’t honor and obey him as head of the household. What does he do when she turns cold and stops showing him wifely affection? Thoughtful consideration of that potential scenario should deter many a strong man.
I say this as something of a patriarch – three wives (serially), five children, and four grandchildren (so far). But I should ever marry again, it would not be to an modern, liberal American woman.
TO: All
RE: Good Point…
It’s a self-inflicted wound that women are complaining about.
They did more than their fair share of making this mess. And now that they begin to recognize the unintended consequences, they whine. But do they do any self-examination? Well…maybe some of them do. If they’re intelligent enough. But darn few of them are of that caliber.
RE: As I’ve Said Oft Enough in the Past….
Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants’ ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night. She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet. She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing [is] silk and purple. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. She maketh fine linen, and selleth [it;] and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. Strength and honour [are] her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue [is] the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband [also,] and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. — Proverbs 31:10-31
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Stupidity got us into the mess. Why can't it get us out?]
this is completely Oprah-bullsh*t wrong:
“I also know that both men and women think another person will make them happy…wrong, we must first be happy with ourselves.”
aristotle would opine that that is advice for pigs or gods only, not people.
the irony of this bit of wisdom is that the first part suggests the speaker understands that one should not be selfish – that is, whether you love someone cannot depend entirely on whether they do for you what you believe they should do for you.
unfortunately, the second part recommends that we become entirely self-sufficient.
what this common misunderstanding usefully demonstrates is the decadence of the egotistic perspective: basically, the egotist is f*cked, and will almost never not be egotistical.
here’s the actual rule: normal people capable of healthy relationships do not need relationship advice, and it does not occur to them that they should change or that they can change people. what the hell does that mean? relationship advice is propogated by assh*les, to assh*les. period. it is not my fault if there happen to be so many assh*les that this doesn’t seem like sound advice. it is, and there are.
the speaker, for example, has had many failed marriages to bad boys. why is this? because she is an assh*le. that is the answer you’ve been looking for, woman.
It isn’t only women. It is culture, and human nature. You can find good women, if you look outside of America. The U.S. feminism: I get half mentality is self defeating for women.(side note: do you remember the old Eddie Murphy riff on this back when he was funny). Productive males who work and save and want to have a family, have the most to lose by marrying. If you are a flashy, spend it all as you make it type, you have less to lose ( since you don’t have many assets to tap).
On human nature point.
Marrying is a huge risk for a young person trying to save. As younger males or females start making money and saving, they will of course have a huge financial risk to lose half by marrying.
When women have financial assets that they have worked to earn, I suspect they are also less inclined to marry.
Anyway you slice it.. Marrying in the traditional concept ( of pushing 15 year old’s together and saying good luck) is dying. Without a way to protect assets you bring into marriage, you will see marriage continue to dissolve.
If you want to strengthen marriage, then the conclusion is you need to strengthen pre-nups. If make pre-nups iron-clad and make only joint accounts and assets available to split on divorce, and more equitable child support and visitation: then there will be a boom in marriage.
I don’t think the government should be involved in marriage.. but since they are: they should not issue a marriage license without also certifying and recording upfront how assets will be distributed on divorce, allowing that each party can protect assets with full disclosure to the other partner. Any undeclared assets cannot be protected. I think that would help a lot.
Women aren’t the whole of the problem, but they are definitely most of the problem. Men are responsible for taking advantage of the ‘free milk’ that is available from many women. They are also responsible for not meeting their obligation to get married and make babies so that civilization can continue.
Everything else is the responsibility of women. However, I don’t hold most women responsible for this state of affairs, because they have been taught to act like men in the bedroom and boardroom, and to disdain male nature.
American women are told from a young age – by the culture if not by their parents – that men are violent, stupid, lazy, dictatorial rapists who are out to oppress them. Motherhood and the housewife are denigrated symbols of an antique past, and any woman who engages in either behavior (unless they are single mothers, of course,) is letting down the sisterhood. Feminism, ironically, ended up telling women that they had to be domineering, sexually promiscuous and career-oriented. In other words, feminism told women to act like men.
Most men outside of San Fransisco do not want to marry a man. Men have a purpose in life, and that is to support their family. We all feel this drive, and we want to be providers. If our wives make twice as much as we do, what the hell are we there for at all? Old fashioned? You bet. So is fire, but fire is still useful.
Another leftover bit of nonsense from the sixties is that feminine nature is celebrated, whereas male nature is denigrated. Just under 50% of humanity is portrayed throughout the culture as dumb, violent and buffoonish. Women are never taught to restrain their natures, because their natures are good and decent, not nasty and brutish. You don’t learn to live with the nature of some ape with a suit, you housebreak it. Women nag, browbeat and infantilize men in order to turn them in to good, sensitive and caring women. Men, outside of San Francisco, have no interest in becoming women. Why marry someone who is going to treat you like an idiot for the rest of your life?
Finally, there is the question of sex. Women are only biologically horny once or twice a month, for about a day. Since male nature is to be immediately distrusted, women today feel free to tell their husbands they have a headache 29 days out of the month. This is a touchy point, but men NEED sex. When they hear that sex stops after marriage, they tend to question marriage. When they get married, and can’t have sex with their wives, they tend to find it elsewhere, thus adultery and divorce. You want him to ask you questions about your day and to empathize with you? Men do this to make you happy, even though we would rather be doing anything but listening to you babble. We view it as an obligation, something you have to put up with in order to keep you happy. You can learn to have sex more often than you might feel the need.
Men and women are very different critters, but women are not encouraged to understand the different nature of men, they are encouraged to treat them like trained gorillas. Why would any man have anything to do with them beyond doing little consequence-free milking? If women continue to treat male nature as a curse and a plague, they will end up future Maureen Dowds, with their biological clocks ticking to extinction and totally unable to find a man who wants them. Good riddance, ladies.
Side note time: I don’t date American or Western European women any longer, unless they are one of two things: Mennonites or Mormons. These two groups seem to still teach their kids that men and women are different, and that they need to learn to live with each other.
Dear Nate and Thinking Person: your comments sound a lot like people who cannot understand what they have not experienced.
I am no different: I too once thought of unmarried people as losers and divorced people as whining failures. Allow me to explain why I no longer think so:
After 13 years of marriage my wife called it quits. She said we “grew apart.” (she found a man who was cheating on his wife and had no kids).
Mind you no one said “lets make less money” or “I don’t need this nice house, come home earlier and we’ll scrimp.”
She got the proceeds from the sale of our house and monthly payments of about $10,000, even though she was a lawyer and could work. So she didn’t bother to work.
She bought new cars, went to Hawaii and europe repeatedly (as we had before) but refused to work. Meanwhile I was working every day.
She also quit the kids: although I was paying her, my lawyer and her lawyer (party with most income pays fees), she refused to pay for any school tuition, clothes or anything else for the kids. Guess who paid? And we were splitting custody 50/50!
I was lucky to get 50/50 since a family law judge out here had declared publically that the kids belong with the mom. He’s retired but still active as a private judge.
My oldest daughter eventually came to live with me while in high school after reaching her own limit with her mom. But I had to continue to pay child support. “iron clad obligation” even if my kids chose to live with me.
I had to split my 401k, and every other asset with this “what do I want to be when I grow up” woman. I was financially eviserated by the court system for an irresponsible woman with no thought for her kids.
She didn’t just walk away: the courts saw to it that she got not just half but more than half. I had to pay her 50% of the “value” of my business which has no value unless I work there. So I had to buy my right to work even as I paid her monthly from that work.
Years later she pays for nothing for the kids while I pay for it all; she piles up savings (she works now) and I pay mine out.
Movie producers get fleeced of millions by some airhead because she is deemed to have “contributed” to his work? Steven Spielberg’s first wife (not an airhead but no producer either)got $100 million. Stallone’s wife–one of them–got millions from him after he did rocky and rambo etc. But she was deemed to be a partner in it all. What a joke.
And you will be amazed at how MANY men you run inot after age 40 that ahve this story. Its not just me. I just was too stupid to see the risk.
Returnng to the issue: why should a young man get married under circumstances like this?
You WILL lose your paycheck to a woman who does not love you, does not sleep with you, did nothing to support you except spend money and who may either renounce the kids or worse, take them to get more (non taxable) child support.
You WILL find it hard indeed to start another family since you are still supporting the first one. And you have to do that for years.
Your ex-wife can always come back for more support till you hit age 65.
Her fault in ending the marriage is irrelevant: “No Fault” means just that. Its who makes the $$ that matters.
The ahrder you worked to support your fmaily, the more you will ahev to pay.
The courts claim they support gender neutral custody: and som judges really try to be fair. But you will find that lots more favor the mom and expect dad to live in a shitty apartment, eat tv dinners and support mom who does not work, while she lives in your old house, sleeping with her new BF, who sees your kids more than you do.
And you want men in the 20′s to grow up? To be what–a wage slave for their ex wife?
So: to any man thinking of getting married now, I can only say: love is great and I do not demean it; marriage is great too and mine had many plusses; BUT–read the above-it happened to me; chose carefully; realize that women change once they have been home and not worked–they think this is a lifestyle they are entitled to have–they reach a point where they are not grateful for it, they think they are ENTITLED to have it.
They WILL measure you against all your friends. What you cannot match they will resent.
pre nups are better to have than not have, but they are almost useless if you need them: they are enforced only if “fair”, not if “unconscionable” and if she really needs the money, you may have a piece of paper that is worthless when you need it.
PS: the responsible guys will get creamed in a divorce; the deadbeats who lose their jobs,dump their kids, pay for little or nothing, maake out better. If you are one of the responsible people, the court system knows what to do with you. And you won’t like it one bit.
Our society does not require men or women to act like adults until they are in their thirties.
After we are well and truly into the Obama Second Great Depression, let’s ask that question again, shall we?
To me, the idea of marriage is one of companionship, common interests and values, having someone to share good times and bad and just plain walking through life with someone to lean on. Being single is lonely. Don’t let anyone fool you, it is just plain lonely. I do not want money from anyone. I want to go into a marriage standing on my own two feet and if I leave it, I will walk out the same way. Why can’t men believe that women like me exist?
Why commit to failure?
TO: Laura
RE: Not….
…that you’re a ‘liar’, but a number of men have met women who’ve said the same things, but found out, much to their distress, that THEY were liars.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[No woman ever took a man to hell, unless he had a ticket in his pocket. -- some feminist]
62. dan: I’m not an a**hole…and my ex-husbands are not bad boys…I said I was attracted to them…but not anymore, thank God because I’d be attracted to you!!!
You are the type of man that thinks everything in the relationship is 100% okay as long as you are getting what you want and doing what you want. You want the woman under your thumb and catering to you while you “rule the roost”!! While the woman in your life is reaching out to her friends or reading magazines looking for advice on what to do with you because she loves you and doesn’t want to lose you!! My advice to her is to be happy with herself and be self-sufficient, that way if you won’t man up she won’t miss you!!!
Here’s a tip for you: June Cleaver only existed for a few years on TV!! She was never real and never will be!
TO: Michael Weiss, et al.
RE: Kay S. Hymowitz’s Essay
I could write tome on her misunderstandings in this matter. Most of which deal with her misunderstanding of how things are going to ‘work out’, vis-a-vis the PUAs.
And in that respect, especially when she writes….
…she’s ‘whistling past the graveyard’.
It’s hard to coach for a Little League when you don’t have a ‘player’ in that league. VERY hard because after a certain age, women don’t seem to be very ‘productive’.
Men will hold off marrying until they feel confident that the WOMAN has ‘commitment’. After all, we’ve seen enough reports here and elsewhere that where women whine about men lacking ‘commitment’, they are themselves ‘projecting’.
I guess they’ve taken lessons in ‘English’ from Bill Clinton, who taught US a harsh lesson about the definition of ‘is’. In their case it’s ‘commitment’. And we have learned to ask them how they describe ‘commitment’. And we’ve learned that in many cases, they tend to ‘lie’.
Am I ‘bitter’? No. I’m just experienced.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Woman, n., The unfair sex. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary]
“Women are only biologically horny once or twice a month, for about a day.”
*can’t stop laughing*
Male, been married 34 years(to the same woman). Every day is a challenge, but the rewards are well worth it.
Both spouses must be willing to sacrifice completely, trust completely and forgive completely. Anything less and the finger pointing starts – with no winner. If either spouse expects the other spouse to be any more perfect than themselves, dissatisfaction begins to creep in. Realize that you too, are not perfect and begin to forgive. It can be very liberating! It gets tiring carrying all that baggage!
Women need love, men need respect (that’s Biblical, too – Ephesians 5:33). The more each gives the other what they need, the more each gets what they need. Who starts the giving process? Whichever is most mature – what a challenge that is!
I can’t live without her – I understand the Biblical concept of “one flesh” now.
By the way, she’s not my “best friend” or my “soulmate”, she’s my wife.
I’m truly blessed.
TO: Ms Attitude
RE: June Cleaver vs. Reality
Yeah. That’s true. And even if she were on today—which I seriously doubt—I’d not be watching, as I gave up on television back in ’98.
However, the woman described in Proverbs 31 (see above), DOES exist. Albeit she is harder to find than rubies.
How do I know? Because I’m married to one of the few….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. You are, it seems to me, NOT a Christian…..
TO: Michael Weiss, et al.
RE: Heh
Isn’t it ‘interesting’ that those of us posting here, who take God seriously, seem to be happiest with our marital state?
How very ‘odd’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Enter by the narrow gate, for the way is broad and the gate is wide that leads to destruction. And many are those who go in. However, the way is narrow and the gate is strait that leads to Life.]
P.S. And Life is REALLY what this whole ‘game’ is about. The ‘dating’ part is just a small segment thereof.
Try to look at this ‘game’ in a more holistic manner; birth, growth, love, children, death. They are all part of the Game of Life. And only those who play the ‘game’ well, will be truly ‘winners’….
P.S.
Why is it that the guys with foreign wives are so happy?
I’m one and I’m happy. In retrospect, I was reckless and insanely lucky. I knew her for less than a year, and there were definitely some language and cultural barriers early in our marriage that we worked around or through. I was getting out of the service and didn’t even have a job. My dad actually had to sponsor her to get the visa approved so she could come back with me.
The family has long since let me know if it comes down to me or her, I’m out. Heck, I’d vote the same way. I’m not saying she’s perfect, just that nice and good looking and hard working and loyal and being a strict but loving mother and great cook are tough to beat. Probably being tough and proud enough to put up with anything to make our marriage work had something to do with it as well.
Find somebody like that, and your troubles are over. My son is getting close to thirty and still single, so I obviously have no practical advice on how to do it. I can only say it’s possible.
TO: All
RE: An Additional Thought on Age and Marriage
I seem to recall that in ancient Hebrew marriage, a man married when he was in his late 20s or early 30s. A woman married when she was in her later teens.
If I’m mistaken about this, please disabuse me.
What’s the significance?
Well, when a man was of that age, he had established himself in the community. He was making a living and, if fortunate, propertied. And a woman was in her most fecund state. It was the ‘natural’ combination of capabilities for procreation.
The challenge for the woman’s parents was to select a good husband for their daughter. Hence the ‘courtship’ and so much parental involvement then.
Please correct me if I’m mistaken here. But that system seemed to work alright. As opposed to the mess we have to deal with these days. And I’m not just talking about men being unwilling to have the testicles cut off by some court. I’m also thinking about teenage pregnancy.
Regards,
Chuck
[Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid.]
Just don’t marry an American woman, you’d be surprised how wonderful life can be w/o these self-centered creatures.
ms. attitude you are a silly person, but i may have been harsh, and i apologize. still, if you’ve been married several times and are attracted to bad boys, you are an assh*le. sorry – hate the game don’t hate the playa.
i for one do not require anything from my love but that she can be who she is and love me at the same time. in my experience – and just look at any magazine rack when you’re in the grocery store tonight – women are the ones who talk endlessly about this because it is only women who are interested in this. my woman does not believe she is going to lose me because i tell her and show her how much i love her constantly. why? not because of some plot or scheme, but because i love her. i do not need instructions; i don’t have questions; i learned while an adolescent, like everyone else has to. that’s what love *is.* not this endless “well what if X?” or “is it fair if Y?” or “who is HE to tell me not to do Z?” hilariously or tragically, most men abandon those thoughts as soon as they decide they love a woman, but a woman resents it if she is not just as free as she was before the relationship. that is not justice or wisdom, that is immaturity and selfishness, and very painful for the man.
the thing that too many women don’t seem to understand is men love the woman, and believe themselves lucky to have found her. too often, women seem to want the man + his stuff, where his stuff often means more to them.
#78…..Self-centered creatures eh? I take offense! I happen to be an “American” re: Caucasian wife of 20 odd years to a corporate husband. I have mothered his children, moved across country so he could climb the corporate ladder, stood by him at business functions, cheered him on as he got promoted and lauded and patted on the back by his business associates. Let me preface the next comments with..I love him dearly and would do anything to support him in his endeavors BUT…I have sacrificed much to be his biggest cheerleader. So many of you posting are so self-serving…”Get a foreign wife. They’re more pliant…blah, blah, blah.” Truly, you want a yes-wife and not a partner? Granted, I’ve read some of your divorce stories which are tragic. I would never sacrifice my kids for a second husband/boyfriend/anything or try and take more than what was necessary to live. But to say that we stay-at-home moms expect everything and aren’t grateful? Pathetic. In my estimation my wonderful husband wouldn’t have been able to achieve what he has without me behind him doing all the gruntwork. Sound familiar to any of you? Please, if you are married, give that other half a hug of appreciation once in a while. My adorable husband get this and thus gets “it” more than my apparent need of what was it…twice a month? Laughable.
74. Chuck Pelto:
“P.S. You are, it seems to me, NOT a Christian…..”
Mr. Pelto, I AM a Christian and many years ago when I was a teen my girls Bible study class studied Proverbs 31:10-31. I understand it well.
My first husband is the son of a Pentacostal Preacher. Our marriage fell apart because of the death of someone very precious to us. Our divorce was a shock to everyone. My brother-in-law had stated that if our marriage couldn’t make it then no marriage could.
My second husband was ten years after my divorce. A God-fearing Southern Baptist. Unfortunatly he was still deeply in love with his first wife.
Between the two is when I was, for some unseen reason, attracted to bad boy fixer-uppers. And like I said, I’m not like that anymore.
For some reason the things I’m saying on here are getting twisted and not understood. It all goes back to the fact that men and women are different. We think different. We view life different…I know this because I raised two boys on my own and watched them and their friends. Men don’t want a whiney, needy woman (which goes back to Proverbs 31:10-31). If a woman has a life of her own and doesn’t depend on a man for her happiness then that takes this off of his shoulders. He CAN’T make her happy, only she can! And vice-versa.
Ephesians 5:25-33 (If a man loves himself wouldn’t he be better able to love his wife? If he didn’t love himself how can he love her?)
Incredible. You say nothing new, but find several opportunities to let us know you have lots of friends and know successful writers.
79. dan: Apology accepted, I think…cause you called me that again!
If you read my first comment again and my most previous you’ll see that I am not one. I also do not put all men in the same category. I am currently dating a wonderful man, who I adore. Do I need advice about him? No. I know what I know about him because he told me. I do have friends that always seek my advice about their marriages. I do not like divorce, it’s demeaning to both parties and very devastating to the children. My advice to my son is what I tell them….the sexes are different. We can never change that…and I don’t want to! I love men, heck, my son’s are men!
And the issue about taking his stuff….I was the one that took all of the marital debt, my child support was the least amount he could pay under the law. Did I whine and cry about it? No, I went back to college and worked full time and never missed anything that my boys were involved in. I let him get the boys anytime he wanted, I never spoke ill of him because he is their father. All these years later we have become good friends.
Chuck: with all due respect, that biblical stuff is about as relevant in today’s world as telling me how powerful the father was in Roman times.
I don’t want a woman filling up my kids with religious ideas about women which aren’t so hot when you have daughters. Nor would I want to have parents involved in the choice. Ugh!
One issue is that women don’t need men for support anymore. Until about 40 years ago, women were a rarity at serious jobs. A woman ranking third in her class from Stanford law in 1969 was offered a job at LA’s largest firm–as a secretary.
Now women can earn a bundle and don’t see the “need” for marriage except to be with a man they really love, or for kids.
Not finding the man they really want, they often settle to have kids or escape the fear of not being married by age 35. Then they decide they want out.
Or they are attracted to bad boys, marry a nice one and then decide they wanted a bad one after all.
There is nothing wrong with any of that. No one ought to be trapped in a marriage they don’t want. You don’t own the wife.
The “wrong” comes in when the working man is flayed alive to fund her mid-life lifestyle change. She is not expected to sacrifice one iota for it or work to fund it: he is.
She gets to keep the kids, the house and an income stream. Now she can pick any man she wants. She has the money too! Talk about an incentive to break up!
Imagine as the other side: you get to dump the old wife, kick her out of the house, take 40% of her income and take up with your secretary!
TO: Real Story
RE: That Old Stuff
Yeah.
That’s why subcutaneous and I have such ‘lousy’ marriages now.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Stupidity, n., Ignorant and proud of it.]
TO: Ms Attitude
RE: Then It Sounds Like….
….you’ve got a long walk ahead of you.
Good luck and vaya con Dios.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. I notice you skipped over that part of Ephesians, 5:22-24. Why is that?
P.P.S. Out of curiosity, Ms Attitude, who filed for your divorces?
OK this pair of posts dragged me out of my torpor and caused me to blog for the first time in over a year on this. (about 30 posts already there) If you are a man looking for a contribution to the truth, then click. If you are a woman, it will probably just piss you off.
http://watchcenter.blogspot.com
Look, men can be heartless, self-absorbed jerks – and so can women. The problem is not genetics or biological differences but the fact that in our society heartless narcissism – what an earlier generation called “caddishness” – appears to be more prudent and sensible than actually sticking your neck out and giving enough of a damn about another person to sacrifice.
About a year ago, I read a story in a local suburban paper about a couple who was celebrating their 65th wedding anniversary. They met at a USO dance in 1942, dated for a couple of weeks and then wed -because the bridegroom was due to ship out to Europe. He was 20 and she was 19. He came back from the war, they had 6 children, and somehow made it to a day in 2007 when they slow-danced once again (with some difficulty this time) and celebrated 65 years together, with not only their children but their great-grandchildren around them..
Is that couple saintly? Were they biologically different in any way from today’s 20-somethings? This old lady said her now ancient husband was “the handsomest boy I had ever seen” so don’t tell me grandma was indifferent to biceps and broad chests. (In fact, I recall that my mother and her friends retained a healthy appreciation of men in uniform well into middle age.) The difference was that they were a generation raised in privation who did not have boundless choices and options in life. Women were limited, obviously, but so were men. It was not possible for an ordinary Joe to have many different sex partners unless he frequented prostitutes and was very discreet.. My ex- brother-in-law, a vice-principal at a high school, dumped his wife of 20 years for a 29 year old teacher. If a school principal had done that in 1955, he would have had more to worry about besides alimony payments – he would have lost his job and become a social pariah.
Another difference: (and this is where I disagree with the people who seem to think that successful marriages entail devoting your entire emotional life to your spouse and children, doing everything together as a family, and dropping the buddies and the girlfriends). I don’t think the men and women of the generations prior to the ’60′s ever expected their spouse and kids to fulfill all their emotional and social needs. My father liked hanging out with the guys as much as any Gen Y kid does today. When he felt like doing so, he headed to the VFW hall or the corner bar to have a couple of beers and tell some dirty jokes. My mom had her volunteer work at our parish and potluck dinners and coffee clatches and I can attest they talked as much about shoes and clothes as anybody does today. (And yeah, “June Cleaver” could tell some pretty dirty jokes too.)
Just as parents today “work at” parenting in a way my parents’ generation never did* and so frequently become overprotective “helicopter parents,” so too the emotional and social needs that were once spread among neighbors, friends, church, fraternal organizations and extended families are now focused on one person. And that person is supposed to be lover, best friend, monetary support, sensitive to even unspoken wants and desires. Who, male or female, can possibly live up to all that? And if you can’t – you get the gate.
*Bear in mind that my parents’ generation did produce the Baby Boomers. This Boomer regards that as a grave mark against them and a sign that perhaps they should have kept a closer eye on us,:-)
Chuck:
Again with all due respect, (even for the tedious quotes at the bottom of your remarks), it may sound good to you. And it may be good for you. I’m happy for you.
But like some bearded/turbaned man enmeshed in some religious tar paper marriage that keeps you both ensnarled in what no one else might want, it does not mean its the right answer for people that have somewhat wider horizons or even different ones.
Chuck: What do you mean by “you’ve got a long walk ahead of you.” ?
P.S. I notice you skipped over that part of Ephesians, 5:22-24. Why is that?
Because I was talking about the responsiblities of the husband.
As for both of my divorces….they filed. I didn’t want the first one, he was the love of my life. With all that we had been through I thought it was the end of the world. I realized that the second one didn’t love me at all, I was a substitute for his first wife who took his money and cheated on him.
I’m a good woman with an unfortunate past with men. I don’t think another Christian should stand in judgment of me, in fact, I don’t think anyone should. Life is what it is. My parents are still married and my only sister is still married to her first husband. This was not something I wanted in my life.
Ms. Attitude: I can relate. Besides my sister, who was dumped for a younger model, I know several other women who married men who said they wanted traditional wives. They did that – stayed at home with the kids, did all the cooking and cleaning, supported their husbands, went along with relocating to whereever their spouse’s job took them. And their thanks was to be dropped for younger career women who were more “glamourous” and “exciting” than they were.
There is a beautiful young woman who works in my office – an absolute knockout. She is also intelligent and funny. But she is very religious and wants to wait until marriage. That means that she spends most of her Saturday nights at home – because even the guys at her church lose interest when they’re not “getting any” after the third date.
And I also know of cases where the shoe was on the other foot – nice guys who were totally betrayed by gold diggers.
Men try to be considerate and sensitive and find they’re dumped for “the bad boys.” Women who are traditionally-minded find they get dumped for sexpots and career-minded females.
Let’s face it – both men and women can be selfish, deceitful, shallow and foolish. Stomping your feet and pointing at the other sex and saying “It’s all YOUR fault! You’re all rotten and nasty!” does nobody any good.
I married at the age of 23, to a female that was 18, she had lied, and said the baby she was carrying was mine, she also used me to get out of going to jail for grand larceny. I did’nt know these things at the time of my meeting her.
I was just out of the service, and i was working as a store detective, and i was quite gullable in regards to females, as i was into honor/respect/loyalty.
The fetise had miscarried after my marriage to her, and then she got pregnant again, and we had a daughter, she got pregnant again, and it was then i had found out from one of her school friends that the first baby i had married her for was another males. A sixteen year old boys who had been 2yrs behind her in school.
At this point i had learned just how stacked against males was the marriage system laws, as after the birth of my son, and my children are mine, i had the tests done after i found out she was a tramp as well. She had started spouting the liberal feminist harpy line of today, or more specificly, about twenty years ago. The same thing, just worse.
She actually thought she could have her special “friends” while still being married, both her cake, and ice cream. When i had objected, she started to call the police for no reason at all, and make up story’s that i was somehow abusing her, when it had been her abusing me, to establish a written police log of her false accusations against me. She was also constantly yelling at me for her own faults, and knew i had to sleep, and would’nt let me.
The upshot was that she had the police, and almost everyone around me, including my own family, thinking i was some sort of monster to her, and a poor father as well. Beside the fact i had to work two full time jobs to make ends meet, leaving her plenty of time to spend my money on sitters, and her outings with other males. And neglecting our chilren in the process.
It was only through blackmail of her abuse of our son that i was able to at least save him from her, when i had divorced her, i had tried to keep our daughter as well, and i had given her a one way ticket to florida, the land of her then current ambitions to get rid of her, saying i would start the prceedings for divorce.
The only way i had saved myself from paying her any money for nothing at all, except her being a divorced female, was through that blackmail. Our daughter later went to live with her, but i had already gotton her to agree to a written statement on the divorce papers that niether of us would pay the other child support.
Today, because of her behaviors, our daughter is a basket case who follows in her own footsteps, a self centered female existance abuseing, and torturing males with her own behavior, and leaving my 2 grandsons to be raised by the males parents{thankfully}
My son in contrast, has almost earned his first degree, and works a full, and part time job as well.And i talked ggod sense into him, and he won’t be having marriage or children until he is in his late twentys or early thirtys.
I can say with confidence that the three factors that actually matter as to why young men won’t marry today is these.
1) The system is to exspensive to have a marriage, let alone chilren.It kills any love that there may have been between those who marry. Even those who would work at it.
2) The females have to much power, and the males none, they don’t want to be gelded, and made into some females house male, they want a partnership.Those who are serious about it.
3) There are to many females who use males to achieve, and aquire what they want, and then dispose of the male, after having sucked him dry. The marriage laws made by feminists allow them to do such things without punishmnet.
Anyway, thats all a true story.
…”Get a foreign wife. They’re more pliant…blah, blah, blah.” Truly, you want a yes-wife and not a partner?
That’s the myth that many American women have about foreign women – that they’re demure and subserviant yes wives. Obviously, they have not met many Filipinas like my wife! We’ve been married 25 years and I love her dearly. She’s passionate and outspoken without being a bitch – a fine line that so many American women don’t understand. Any long term marriage becomes a collection of inside jokes. One of ours is that if she says, “You’re the boss.” I respond, “Since when?”
Even though I’m agnostic, I thank whatever God there may be that I didn’t marry any of my American girlfriends that I dated before meeting my wife. Nor am I the least bit tempted by other women – never cheated and never even considered it.
Marriage isn’t hard work, IMO. Life is hard work. There’s the cooking, cleaning, trash and dozens of other things that have to be done while working to make a living. Add kids to the mix and the work load of life goes up by an order of magnitude. Being in a good marriage means you have someone to share doing all of those things that life demands.
Still, I wouldn’t trade being an adult making my way in life for all of the single’s video games or whatnot. I find great satisfaction in being an adult, especially married to an adult woman.
However, should I outlive my wife I doubt I’ll ever marry again. There are too many mercenary women out there.
I don’t think a woman’s nationality has anything to do with her being a good wife. If you go to any enlisted club on any military installation you’ll find many foriegn wives looking for boyfriends while their husbands are deployed.
It is very surprising that any man is getting married nowadays. It’s clear that men have at least some understanding of just how anti-male family court and associated government policy is and how much injustice against men these entities perform. (Although, many men just don’t realize how bad it is even if they know its bad.)
Women say, “Not all women are like that.” So what? The amount of women who are like that is at least 10%, and it wouldn’t surprise me if it was as high as 33%. What about the rest of the women? There are a few women like Dr. Helen who are willing to stand up for men out of the principle that injustice is wrong, period. Women like Dr. Helen probably only make 0.1% (at best) of the female population. The rest fall into two groups. The first group while they technically “aren’t like that” defend those who do. Anytime men try to point out injustice against them, these women go into “defend the sisterhood” mode. They may not be “like that”, but it doesn’t matter since they defend those who do. The second group are those who support men out of self interest. There aren’t a lot of women in this group, and the only reason they support men is due to the fact that they think that what women are doing negatively affects women. They don’t really care about injustice against men. They are just afraid women’s true nature is getting exposed. As a result even if most women “aren’t like that”, they can’t be trusted and a part of the problem.
This is going to end very badly for women. Since there are so few women (such as Dr. Helen) who understand that injustice against men is wrong, men are not only fighting a battle against government policies that disenfranchise them, but against more than half the electorate. As a result the only way men can solve these problems is by taking the vote away from women. That is what will happen.
Even after women can no longer vote, and anti-male government policies are eliminated, men still will not trust women. With women thinking that men are nothing but children out to rape them, why should men want anything to do with women even if female privilege no longer exists? At that point sexbots will exist and while it can be argued that a sexbot can’t replace a woman, sexbots will be better that the harpies calling themselves women so it doesn’t matter.
you whiney men need to go to san francisco and love on each other! if this is what conservative men are like you will be dying out of exsistence since women dont want you. GROW UP!
The real question is, how many women want to get married too young before you’ve had a chance to find where you’re going in life, develop your career, and actually not settle for less than real love? This is not exactly an era where women sit around and pine for a guy to take care of them. This is an era where more women than men populate college campuses and are earning more bachelor’s degrees than men. Women I know tend to see the opposite of what the author describes out there in the dating pool, and I concur — there are a lot guys in a major rush to get married, settle down, and have kids to the point that it’s a total turn-off.
I have been interested in following along in this discussion and seeing what others have to say. I find it interesting that when a female speaks up she is slammed for having an opinion. I am going to give mine anyway.
I too come to this discussion with experience from both a long term marriage and a divorce. I was married for 22 years to a man that I stayed with until my last child graduated from high school. I worked full time during the entire marriage, earned both a bachelors and a masters degree, took care of the house and children and kept up with my ‘wifely duties’. I endured emotional, verbal and physical abuse during most of the marriage as well as sticking it out for seven years after he decided to have an affair with his first wife. I helped to raised his two children from that first marriage as well two of my own. When I divorced him I did get the house, but along with it I took ALL of the marital debt, paid ALL of the attorney fees and got nothing in return from him what-so-ever. I do not make a lot of money, he is retired military and I get no benefit from that. I did not cheat on him, I did not abuse him, I just loved him. I tried as hard as I could to make him happy, to make the kids happy to make everybody happy. I agree with Ms Attitude on this, one person cannot be responsible for another’s happiness, one has to be responsible for their own happiness, only then can they share that with another. The point of all this is to say that not all women are out to take everything from the men, some of us do want to be married, and we do want to be happy, but there are those men who take advantage of us and treat us badly. We cannot be saddled with all the blame when the marriage fails. It is hard out here and it does get lonely. The men that I have encountered in the single dating world for the most part have had a peter pan complex, and want to play, while the others want to quickly jump into their ‘last relationship’ without even finding out who I am. It is very discouraging when trying to meet people who are honest and open when there is so much baggage.
I would be interested to hear from Chucks wife. I wonder if she has a voice in the marriage or if he tells her what to think, to say and she has to follow orders like a good little Stepford wife?
I find your entire tone degrading and condescending, in fact ‘holier-than-thou’ which is one of the main things many non Christians find to be so unpleasant in those who profess to be such great Christians. This makes it hard for many who go out into the community to share the love of God with others to break through so many barriers. My mom used to say that if there were people “like that” in heaven then she wasn’t sure she wanted to go. Get off you high horse man. Who do you think you are?
“Finally, there is the question of sex. Women are only biologically horny once or twice a month, for about a day. Since male nature is to be immediately distrusted, women today feel free to tell their husbands they have a headache 29 days out of the month.”
Actually, here’s the secret of life: Men who are great in bed encounter far fewer “headache” sufferers. Because even if there is real noggin pain, women know that nothing brings relief like a good romp.
There are a few women like Dr. Helen who are willing to stand up for men out of the principle that injustice is wrong, period. Women like Dr. Helen probably only make 0.1% (at best) of the female population
Oh, yes, 99.9 percent of us have no interest whatsoever in justice or fairness. C’mon now. That’s no different from a radical feminist saying 99.9 percent of men secretly long to rape women.
Having dismissed your sweeping generalization, I’ll make a rather less sweeping one of my own. In my experience, every woman I know who has been betrayed or abandoned by a man suffers agonies wondering what she did wrong and what she could have done differently. I have no idea if that number is a third or a half or 85.7% of all women, because unlike some men here, I am not an expert on “all women.” However, the women I know don’t seem incredibly unusual. Sometimes that endless replaying of “I shoulda/woulda/coulda” becomes tiresomely unproductive and neurotic and self-hating (“If only I had been more sympathetic, or lost 15 pounds, or learned to cook, or gotten a tummy tuck, he’d still be here.”) More productive is when women start to question the sort of man they keep getting mixed up with. If a woman keeps attracting jerks, what are they seeing in her?
However, I’m not seeing any self-questioning by men, at least not on this thread. “I was a great, wonderful guy, a real catch, and that floozy cheated on me and took my money and then another bitch cheated on me and took my money and then another one came along,…, And let me tell you what happened to my best buddy,… So you see, they’re all rotten.” Well, geez, have you ever wondered why you seem to zero right in on the harpies, the floozies and the bitches? Could it possibly be because you mistook good looks for good character and kept on thinking that anybody who looks that good in a bikini wouldn’t possibly doublecross you?
Both women and men can make terrible choices, particularly in the area of romance where none of us behave like coolly rational Vulcans. Just as women will sometimes bypass the nice guy for the arrogant jerk with the BMW and the attitude, so men will sometimes bypass the average looking nice girl for the sexy manipulator. In both cases, they’ve picked their poison. But don’t pretend your rotten choices have nothing to do with you and your priorities (and yeah, I’ve made some rotten choices myself).
There are people of both sexes who get involved with one bad apple after another. And then they decide “all men” or “all women” are dreadful and carp and moan on barstools or in the comments section of blogs. I’m sorry, but that sounds like grade school to me.
Ms D:
That’s Chuck. The odds of him contributing something useful to a conversation are slim enough that you can safely ignore him.
——————
97. wah wah:
you whiney men need to go to san francisco and love on each other! if this is what conservative men are like you will be dying out of exsistence since women dont want you. GROW UP!
——————
So we don’t want to get raped in Family Court, and hence avoid marriage. This makes us whiny? We need to “grow up”? You sound just like Kay Hymowitz’s original article.
By the way, what you are resorting to in your post above is what is called a “Shaming Tactic”. Here read all about it here:
http://menforjustice.net/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=49
You can only “shame” the bulls into walking into the slaughter house for so long. Eventually they wake up and see right through it.
Way to go Ms D, where were you when i needed you?{smiles}{just kidding, though i meant the sentiment} i wrote my side of it, and i want you, and other woman who may read, and write in this thread, that i was being objective in my writing, as i got rid of any negative feelings from that time quite a few years ago.
I guess i am the male equivelant of what the woman who actually loves in the relathionship goes through. Being the male who loved. I went through what i did for 9yrs, and was just calling a spade a spade.
I to have met woman who want to jump right into a relationship, without even bothering with the time it takes to actually get to know who you really are, or vice versa.
I am not a male who is into sex everyday either, about twice every couple of weeks for me, i never have treated it like candy. I like the other parts of the relationship more actually, when there is one of course, but that takes two.
I am not a bitter male about marriage/woman. I have friends both male/female that are just wonderful to be around, many of them married, and i must admit that i am envious at times. I have always loved children, and i guess if there is any bitterness that lingers, it would be that my children were treated out of something that is special, a whole family.
Here’s the bad news for SYM’s. It only gets worse for MAM’s [middle age males]. The choices include those women who have already been married twice, three times….or those who have gained about 50 lbs sitting around for Mr. Perfect to appear.
“And their thanks was to be dropped for younger career women who were more “glamourous” and “exciting” than they were. ”
That kind of contradicts of them wanting traditional women to begin with. But, most of all what a bunch of idiots. Somewhere along they forgot the kids.
“The real question is, how many women want to get married too young before you’ve had a chance to find where you’re going in life, develop your career, and actually not settle for less than real love?”
Career can be managed a lot better than having a stable and reliable mate. I can find many paths to careers within the span of 5 years. Very unlikely I will run into someone as compatible with me as my wife. The decision is/was very simple from my end.
“That’s Chuck. The odds of him contributing something useful to a conversation are slim enough that you can safely ignore him.”
All a matter of perspective.
That’s not true. A man’s power increases with time. Middle age males who kept up with their careers and enhanced their financial positions rule the roost. They can have access to all women starting from mix-20′s right up to their own age group.
Bridget
It’s not because men don’t give women ‘great sex’ that the desire wanes. It’s just a fact of life. After living with someone for years, and getting older, maybe having a child or two, the physical aspect loses it’s appeal. It’s no ones fault.
“Just as women will sometimes bypass the nice guy for the arrogant jerk with the BMW and the attitude, so men will sometimes bypass the average looking nice girl for the sexy manipulator. In both cases, they’ve picked their poison.”
DING! Give that lady the first-sensible-comment-in-the-thread prize! Are you listening, whiners?
TO: Real Story
RE: Happy For Me, Are You?
It didn’t really sound as good to me at first as you might think. But it sounded a LOT better once I came to understand it. And it’s been MUCH better since thing.
Thanks for being ‘happy’ for me. But it seems to me more like you’re trying to justify your own [mis]understanding of the world and the Game of Life.
[Note: If Milton-Bradley came out with an updated version of that game, I wonder what it would look like....in the light of this thread.]
RE: What Others MIGHT Want
First off, if you can’t recognize a difference between one group whose leader’s first ‘miracle’ was to turn water into wine and another group whose leader’s first ‘miracle’ was to knock-over a caravan….
Next. Which of those two groups do you think would hold a dull knife to your throat and demand you take the pledge? And they’d be doing what is written in THEIR book.
Whether you accept what I say or not, is not a problem for me. It’s YOUR problem.
Hope that helped….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[There is none so blind as he who will not see.....]
TO: Ms D
RE: The Distaff
She prefers Town Hall over PJM.
She’s a commissioner in this city. Her IQ is higher than mine. She’s a better shot with a revolver than I am. I prefer the ACP.
What’s your point here?
Better yet, what parts of Proverbs 31 (cited above) do you not quite understand? Something about ‘considers a field and buys it’? That she should have the fruits of her labors? That she has honor in the city where she lives?
The city just erected a monument on our property denoting the historic district our house is in. She was instrumental in getting that district recognized, despite resistance from the second largest corporation in the city, which borders the district. [Note: They were afraid that such a district might interfere with their plans to expand their campus into the neighborhood.]
Doesn’t sound much like a ‘stepford wife’ to me.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Move valuable than rubies.....]
TO: Real Story
RE: Heh
I did a compare and contrast between two religions and the moderator didn’t care for me to suggest that one was ‘different’ from the other. So they deleted my post.
Sorry about that. But consider the first miracles of the two ‘Leaders’ and then reconsider your understanding.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[I'm an escapee from a Political Correction facility.]
The point I was making before I was attacked and had to go on the defense is that we are different from one another but that is what makes it great. Date around before marriage and find out what personality traits you like and then find someone with those traits. Hold off on sex, men don’t understand that women’s emotions change afterwards, if she’s not in a solid relationship she’ll become a little crazy! Now there are some women who can have sex without strings attached, but they are only cheapening and fooling themselves.
As for divorce courts…I have to say that it is akin to hell. I don’t understand how people can get so vengeful. In my experience it seems like the divorce attorneys egg it on. The dirtier and more drawn out the fight the more money they get.
TO: Ms Attitude
RE: The Meaning
You don’t know about a christian’s ‘walk with Christ’? Interesting….
As you may well know, based on your reports above and here, it takes TWO to tango. And one partner stepping on the others toes doesn’t make for a good ‘dance’. Especially if they’re doing it deliberately and with force.
I think it requires looking at it from the more holistic approach. Not just the other parties responsibilities. I look at mine as well as hers. And not just in respect to each other, but in the context of our relationship with Christ.
This is a far cry from what was going on in either of MY first two marriages. And it seems to be working a LOT better this way. We’ve been together for longer than both of my previous marriages combined.
It’s not a perfect situation. We have had our rough patches. Indeed. We’re going through one now with her mother who has Stage IV squamous carcinoma of a VERY aggressive nature. The doctors have thrown in the towel. We do a lot of praying and a lot of grieving these days.
Good for you…in a manner of speaking. Albeit I only have one side of this sad story.
First. You’re not alone with unfortunate relationships. Had some myself.
I’m hardly your ‘judge’. It’s not part of my mission statement. He holds that duty.
I’d suggest getting closer to Him. I’ve found prayer does indeed help, in more ways than most people, like Real Story here, would care to think about. But for Christians, it is a help and a blessing. However, I’ve found that it helps to be specific in what you pray for.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[As soon as the man is at one with God, he will not beg. He will then see prayer in all action. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
I can find many paths to careers within the span of 5 years. Very unlikely I will run into someone as compatible with me as my wife. The decision is/was very simple from my end.
True. Bridget, you are making the same mistake many women of my generation (late boomers) did. We pitied friends who married right after college. We assumed that after we were done with our fab ’20′s and set on upward career paths, we would all meet Mr. Wonderful when we were 30-32 or so and settle down. Alas, life doesn’t work on schedule and men who are good marriage material and interested in “real love” will not magically appear when you’re “ready.” A guy a friend passed up when she was 24 because he was too serious and eager to settle down, is someone she now looks wistfully back on as “the one who got away.” Well, she let him get away.
You’re also assuming that career will always be the big priority in life. Believe me, many highly ambitious and go-getter 25 year olds become the single and childless 50 year olds who are bored and dissatisfied with work and feel a great void in their lives where husband and children should be. Honestly, when I look back now at huge work projects which consumed my life back in my 20′s and 30′s – I can’t remember the details anymore, even when I look at my resume. The promotion and raise that was so important then is barely remembered 10 years down the road. Let’s face it – most of us are not curing cancer or writing the Great American Novel. I like my work OK, but if the lottery ticket came through, I’d quit tomorrow:)
And yeah, people are forgetting the little matter of children, who do much better with 2 parents instead of one. Once you have them, your life doesn’t (and shouldn’t) revolve around you and your little needs and wishes.
TO: Ms Attitude
RE: Attacked?
Being questioned is an ‘attack’?
I’m suddenly reminded of a quote from some old, dead guy….
RE: Your Points
True.
Good idea. In the Army, ‘target fixation’ is a ‘killer’. So keep your eyes open on the ‘field of battle [of the sexes]’. And be cautious.
EXCELLENT POINT!
And it’s not just women changing. Men will too. They get ‘dumb’. And they might begin to ‘fixate’ on a ‘target’. That’s VERY dangerous.
Hmmmm…….why would they have been ‘vengeful’? Or are you thinking of other cases you’re familiar with?
I wouldn’t put it past them to do such. I’ve seen that sort of behavior in attorney’s and in other ‘professions’ as well. Especially the ‘medical’ of late. They know the treatment isn’t going to work. Indeed. It will just make life more miserable. But they recommend it anyway…..sorry about that rant….but it just came out remembering these last few months…..{heavy sigh}….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[All professions are conspiracies against the laity. -- George Bernard Shaw]
Every man should get married some time; after all, happiness is
not the only thing in life!!
* Anonymous
——————————————————————-
An archaeologist is the best husband a woman can have; the older
she gets the more interested he is in her.
* Agatha Christie
——————————————————————-
Bachelors should be heavily taxed. It is not fair that some men
should be happier than others.
* Oscar Wilde
——————————————————————-
Don’t marry for money; you can borrow it cheaper.
* Scottish Proverb
——————————————————————-
I don’t worry about terrorism. I was married for two years.
* Sam Kinison
——————————————————————-
A psychiatrist is a person who will give you expensive answers
that your wife will give you for free.
* Anonymous
——————————————————————-
Bachelors know more about women than married men; if they didn’t,
they’d be married too.
* H. L. Mencken
——————————————————————-
Marriage is a three ring circus:
* engagement ring —wedding ring —suffering
——————————————————————-
When a newly married couple smiles, everyone knows why. When a
ten-year married couple smiles, everyone wonders why.
——————————————————————-
Love is blind but marriage is an eye-opener.
——————————————————————-
I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back.
——————————————————————-
I asked my wife, “Where do you want to go for our anniversary?”
She said, “Somewhere I have never been!”
I told her, “How about the kitchen?”
——————————————————————-
We always hold hands. If I let go, she shops.
——————————————————————-
My wife was in beauty saloon for two hours. That was only for the
estimate.
——————————————————————-
She ran after the garbage truck, yelling, “Am I too late for the garbage?”
Following her down the street I yelled, “No, jump in!”
——————————————————————-
Badd Teddy recently explained to me why he refuses to ever get
married. He says “the wedding rings look too much like miniature
handcuffs…..”
——————————————————————-
If your dog is barking at the back door and your wife is yelling
at the front door, who do you let in first?
The Dog of course…at least he’ll shut up after you let him in!
——————————————————————-
A couple came upon a wishing well. The husband leaned over, made a
wish and threw in a penny. The wife decided to make a wish, too. But she
leaned
over too much, fell into the well, and drowned. The husband was stunned
for a while but then smiled, “It really works!”
——————————————————————-
Before marriage, a man yearns for the woman he loves. After
marriage, the “y” becomes silent.
——————————————————————-
It’s not true that married men live longer than single men. It
only seems longer.
* Anonymous
——————————————————————-
“A man without a woman is like a fish without a bicycle.”
* U2
——————————————————————-
“Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the
street bald and still think they are beautiful.”
——————————————————————-
A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can
spend. A successful woman is one who can find such a man.
——————————————————————-
The most effective way to remember your wife’s birthday is to
forget it once.
——————————————————————-
When a man is single, he’s incomplete. When he’s married, he’s
finished
——————————————————————
http://www.americanwomensuck.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14316
TO: AWS
RE: Killers
I’m adding them to my collection of taglines and quotations.
Thanks!
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Marriage is grand. Divorce is a hundred grand.]
115. Chuck Pelto: The attacks were coming from Dan, he kept calling me an a******!! And then when I defended myself you said you thought I wasn’t a Christian. I felt attacked.
I think that we have a lot more in common than we realize.
“Hmmmm…….why would they have been ‘vengeful’? Or are you thinking of other cases you’re familiar with?”
I know many people divorced, and it seems that the passion that was once love has turned to bitter hate….they both want to ruin the other…and it’s a no win situation.
As for the article stating that men won’t settle down…talking about the 20 somethings…why should either sex settle down…if a young person is taking care of themself and they want to play video games all evening or shop for shoes…who are they hurting?
People that have been divorced or burned, like most of the posters on here, are a completely different story. Dating after divorce is soooo much harder.
P.S. I’m sorry about your mother-in-law.
Male advice (Just to prove the difference)
:
Dear Walter:
I hope you can help me here. The other day I set off for work leaving my husband in the house watching the TV as usual. I hadn’t gone more than a few hundred yards down the road when my engine conked out and the car shuddered to a halt. I walked back home to get my husband’s help.
When I got home I couldn’t believe my eyes. He was parading in front of the wardrobe mirror dressed in my underwear and high-heel shoes, and he was wearing my make up.
I am 32, my husband is 34 and we have been married for twelve years. When I confronted him, he tried to make out that he had dressed in my lingerie because he couldn’t find his own underwear. But when I asked him about the make-up, he broke down and admitted that he’d been wearing my clothes for six months. I told him to stop or I would leave him.
He was let go from his job six months ago and he says he has been feeling increasingly depressed and worthless. I love him very much, but ever since I gave him the ultimatum he has become increasingly distant. I don’t feel I can get through to him anymore.
Can you please help?
Sincerely,
Sheila
Reply
Dear Sheila:
A car stalling after being driven a short distance can be caused by a variety of faults with the engine. Start by checking that there is no debris in the fuel line. If it is clear, check the jubilee clips holding the vacuum pipes onto the inlet manifold. If none of these approaches solves the problem, it could be that the fuel pump itself is faulty, causing low delivery pressure to the carburetor float chamber. I hope this helps.
Walter
Help me, help me! He’s talking again!
Marriage is always a risk. Anyone who goes into it thinking otherwise has already lost. Anyone who goes in half-heartedly to protect themselves has already lost. “Standing Outside the Fire” has it right, “Life is not tried; it is merely survived, if you’re standing outside the fire.” Maybe I’m just a naive 19-year-old, but I’m willing to risk it all for love if only a worthy woman would have me. BTW, feminists, you’re not worthy, so don’t ask.
That’s not true. A man’s power increases with time. Middle age males who kept up with their careers and enhanced their financial positions rule the roost. They can have access to all women starting from mix-20’s right up to their own age group.
Middle-aged men go for much younger women or gold-digging fillipinas and then complain that these women are only after their money. What else do you think they’re after? Your ageing body? It’s a trade off – don’t complain.
What a wimpy bunch of whingers.
I have never seen more misogyny assembled on one website, in my entire life!
As if men never do anything wrong in marriage! As if women can actually expect to get alimony in a divorce case these days! As if June Cleaver wasn’t whacked out on tranquilizers for her “neuroses” in the 1950s!
And, you guys are simultaneously whining about a) women who have careers, and b) women who expect to be supported financially. If you don’t like a), you’re going to get b). We have to eat, ya know.
Also, this assumption that women do all the leaving and divorcing is just not true. I had a husband for a while who divorced me. He had the “starter marriage” view of things (i.e. marriage is not necessarily permanent). I know many women who filed for divorce for pretty good reasons, usually it was adultery, alcoholism, drug addiction, or violence coming from the man. I do know men also who filed for divorce for similar reasons (wife is an addict, mentally ill, or cheated).
I know VERY few people who have divorced for trivial reasons. Unfortunately, the non-trivial reasons are far too common.
The “misogyny” you imagine you see on this thread is minuscule, compared to the real misandry that is present throughout our society.
Mary Jackson, I don’t always agree with you, but you nailed it here:
Middle-aged men go for much younger women or gold-digging fillipinas and then complain that these women are only after their money. What else do you think they’re after? Your ageing body? It’s a trade off – don’t complain.
Really, I’m always surprised that intelligent 50 year old men could think a 25 year old woman would be interested in anything but their money. Yeah, those bunnies hang around Hugh Hefner because they’re entranced by his sparkling wit and sex appeal.
Melanie is also correct:
And, you guys are simultaneously whining about a) women who have careers, and b) women who expect to be supported financially. If you don’t like a), you’re going to get b). We have to eat, ya know.
Exactly.
Exactly!
I know VERY few people who have divorced for trivial reasons.
Actually, the data suggests otherwise, your personal experiences notwithstanding. At least 70% of no-fault divorces are initiated by women, and two-thirds of them state ‘boredom’ as one of the reasons for their divorce, and when I say reasons, I mean the real reasons (as documented in various sociological studies), not the ones listed on the legal forms (e.g., ‘irreonciliable differences’).
Sorry. You’re dead wrong.
Why don’t you google the issue, and start reading up on the data. It’ll be a real eye-opener. Then I want you to ask yourself why the idiots on TV which supply your cultural and intellectual cues NEVER talk about it.
Could it be the data doesn’t support their pre-defined narrative about women, men, feminism, marriage, et al?
And how does this relate back to you?
Iron John was published in 1990, not the 1970s. It doesn’t make it any less retarded.
Your essay doesn’t seem to have much of a theme to it. So, why do men put off marriage? Because they don’t want to get divorced? That’s sort of like saying people who take the bus are afraid of getting in a car accident. Yeah, I take the bus when I visit Portugal or Korea; that’s because the likelihood of dying in a terrible car wreck is higher than in the US. Similarly, men might avoid marriage in America, because marriage in America is a bad bet, regardless of “long courtships” or whatever vague thing you’re suggesting as the antidote. The social situation here is pretty much broken. Blame it on irresponsible men, or castrating she-devils; it doesn’t really matter whose fault it is. You’d be an idiot to get married in this day and age. My 80 year old grandmother told me as much.
RE: Foreign spouses……
I am from Boston, every man I met asked me what i did….(how much money I made) I guess I didn’t rate as I was 31 and single, when…
A guy from Europe that I met at work (no American male co-worker would look at me) asked me out!!
I married him and moved to his city, and guess what, I met 100 American women who also married to men of same country.
American women will do a lot for love.
The key is contraceptives.
Human societies may be divided into two groups today
1.) Those who allow contraceptives Ex: USA, China, Japan, Europe, Russia
2.) Those who don’t Ex: The Catholic Church, certain Muslim groups, certain Hindu groups
All of you talking about the passing of marriage? You are fools – prepare to die.
The first set will eventually go extinct out because of this marriage problem. The second set will take over the world.
If you want you children and grandchildren to have future, I suggest aligning with one of the second set civilizations.
This one’s for:
Bridget, Post #100
Molly, Post #108
Bridget points out that if men don’t even try to make their wives happy in the bedroom, they’re going to regret it. She’s certainly right about that.
Bridget also demonstrates my point about female attitudes towards men: If we weren’t incompetent fools who were lousy in the sack, we’d get what we want. Trying to emasculate men like this is not going to attract one, and will drive men away from you faster than an STD. Tell men they can’t do anything right all the time, and they won’t even try to do anything for you. Tell them when they do something right, or tell them that you appreciate their efforts on your behalf, and they will try to continue pleasing you.
All the statistics say that married couples steadily have sex less and less-frequently, to the point where it effectively approaches zero in the 50′s. I can’t imagine that 90% of the men out there are lousy in the sack. Instead, I blame biology. Women are capable of lasting for long periods without sex without any real problems. If they are tired, uninterested, etc. it doesn’t really bother them to refuse sex and go without for months, if necessary. Men get grumpy, sick and tired after a week without it. Men are more than capable of staying active until age 60 and sometimes higher, but women want sex less-frequently as time goes on.
Women seem to be having a lot of headaches, particularly after a few years of marriage. If sex cured them, women would be horny 24/7/353 (There are, as I said, about twelve days a year.) Instead, headaches cure sex, it seems.
If men can’t get respect, appreciation and sex from their wives, they will look for it elsewhere. Thus, infidelity and divorce.
Molly suggests that the physical act of sex loses its appeal after time. The problem is that it only loses its appeal of women. Men are still looking for sex, even if you are not.
I do not wish to intrude upon your marriage, or to imply that you have failed to do any of these things. However, a few simple things will work for anybody in your position when you have passed the point where sex is appealing in a marriage:
1) Remember that your man needs sex. He’s not a hairy woman, he’s a man. He needs it even if you don’t. When he married you, you agreed to provide it for him. Don’t make yourself in to an oath-breaker.
2) Find out what it is that gets you going, and make sure he knows. Very few men can read non-verbal signals as well as women, so just tell him what gets you ready.
3) Keep in shape. Don’t let yourself go to pot because you’re not 25 anymore. He’ll keep in shape, too if you’re paying attention to point #1.
4) Tell him when he has done something right.
That’s about it. Positive reinforcement, and a little fun in the bedroom slightly more frequently than you would want it normally. It’s worked for a few-thousand years. It will work for you.
132: I quibble with this:
Women are capable of lasting for long periods without sex without any real problems. If they are tired, uninterested, etc. it doesn’t really bother them to refuse sex and go without for months, if necessary
I don’t think that is an accurate description of women in their 20′s and 30′s. Their 40′s and 50′s are something else again because of a little thing called menopause. It doesn’t kill sexual desire, but it certainly moves it way down on the list of priorities. It’s hard to feel sexy when you’ve just drenched the sheets with sweat due to a hot flash.
(I’m not quite there yet, but plenty of friends are and are eager to share the details of that particular milestone with me. I await it with great dread.)
What’s sauce for the goose,…,if women can make more of an effort to maintain an active sex life, men ought to understand that sometimes she just won’t be up to it because her body is weirding out on her – it’s not meant as an insult to his manhood or skills in the sack.
More putting oneself in the other’s persons shoes (figuratively, of course – I wouldn’t want any guy jamming his feet into my size 6 pumps)would help both partners in a marriage.
But most importantly, talk! Women, as much as we would like to be able to, we can’t read your mind. If you want us to do something, speak up! Otherwise, don’t complain that we don’t do what you want when you never told us what you want! Don’t drop hints; don’t give nonverbal gestures; come out and say what’s on your mind. Men, listen to your wives. Above all, discuss what you expect from one another. Do you honestly believe those marriages dissolved due to boredom couldn’t be saved? Of course they could be saved if both parties put the effort into saving it, which could be as simple as telling each other what you really think. You aren’t two people anymore; you’re two halves of the same whole- act like it.
I think you people look too deeply here, it’s not a man-women issue, it’s a people issue.
Fact is that being married is hard work, having kids is very hard work and puts people under a lot of pressure to keep bringing home the bacon because depending where you live, you have to pay for private school to protect them from getting beaten up in the free school, afford and keep a large enough house and work your lil’ blue butt off in the process, often the wife needs to work as well just to keep the wolf from the door, and so, you may be able to put the wordly goods on the table, but kids without mom at home still end up feral more often than not and there are always more problems than with properly looked after kids.
People are just voting with their feet because contraceptives work pretty well nowadays and kids not longer just turn up.
Besides that, it’s not a secret that a lot of kids simply abandon their parents when it’s time to fly the nest and often don’t keep their side of the bargain when parents get old and frail, especially if there is nothing to inherit.
So, either you make having kids compulsory by removing the right to contraception, or, you make having kids attractive enough so that people really want them. We had no choice for millions of years(and it was bad, remember?), can we make the freedom to choose work by making it attractive for people to say ‘YES’ to kids?
Oprah!! That woman has caused more divorces than anyone in history. She won’t “COMMIT” because the greedy bitch wants to protect her money, while she convinces women their husbands are worthless pieces of shit, fit only to be fleeced financially, denied their children and denigrated in general. No, I’m not bitter, just recognizing how things work in reality in the USA.
Hey Oprah! We won’t commit for the same reason you won’t commit. We want to protect our health, wealth, and happiness!!!
Two can play that game.
Behind every cold woman (wife) is a bungling man in the sack. That’s one reason they run around. I guess the same may be said about women. However, I do think some people just want the challenge of a different partner and/or an affair every time they turn around. The sanctity of marriage has gone down the tube along with morals. As for the gays why can’t they just shut up. Sex is between partners. It is not a spectators sport nor does anyone care what goes on behind closed doors. Make out a will.
Honestly Gang –
Scolding men about “growing up” re: marriage-commitment is pure hypocrisy when statistics show that over the last thirty years 70% of divorces (US) have been filed by women, and 96% of all alimony awards have also been given to women.
It’s like a thief scolding a homeowner about keeping his doors locked. Isn’t it?
TO: Ms Attitude
RE: I’m Confident…
…that that is correct. And that includes not giving up on other people because we (1) disagree and/or (2) have difficulties in understanding.
Typical of people who have to cope with the English language. It’s fraught with opportunities to foul thinks up.
RE: Divorce
Not from my perspective. I don’t hate my ex-wives. I feel very sorry for them. And even more sorrow for our daughters. They never had a good example to learn by. Now the ‘chickens have come home to roost’ with the elder….and, having been disconnected for so long, by actions of a man in black, there is not that much as I would wish I could do. All I can do is pray for her. And, God willing, that will be enough….
Regards,
Chuck
[Children, n., messages we send into a future we shall never see.]
TO: Ms Attitude
RE: [OT] Mom’s Condition
Thank you for that sentiment.
It’s been tough.
We think we’ve found a real CURE for cancer. Graviola and Pawpaw. It’s been working, as we administered it to her while she stayed with us. But then she insisted on going back to her own home, a couple miles away. And since then, because dad is not as effective at feeding and caring for her in her current state, she hasn’t eaten well nor taking the graviola/pawpaw that had been killing the cancer.
I’m broken-hearted, as we were winning.
I saw her the other day, her cheeks were no longer swollen. Her neck no longer grossly discolored. Her tongue pink and normal looking.
However, now the cancer is in her chin and it looks like hell….
And I howl as King Lear….
We were winning!!!!
But she wants to quit….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[In battle, moral is to physical as 9 to 1. -- Napoleon]
I have danced this dance on many occasions with female friends of mine… Most males in our society feel completely lost. Their view points and opinions are treated with hazmat handling by society at large. If they think and have an opinion that goes against what is portrayed on television they get interesting titles like mysogonist or woman hater or bastard or the classic caveman. If you think for a second that I am wrong take up for men in a large group of women and represent the male point of view and see what happens.
Talk about feeling defensive.
Ms Attitude -
I just saw your posting that your young son is about to get married at age 23. I know you tried talking to him, but please try again to have him reconsider. You probably are hesitant as you don’t want to be the bad mom putting your nose in your son’s business, but believe me, at his age he needs more of a “good kick” than “understanding”.
Google Tom Leykis, and check out his radio-show podcasts. There is a good index of shows where you can find those about the folly of marrying too young. He makes very good arguments against it, and caller after caller into the show share their personal horror stories of missed years, ruined finances, and crippled futures. Help him.
You single guys would do well to listen to the few happily married men who have posted here. As one of that group, I can say that many of your attitudes are 180 degrees out from where true happiness can be found.
“The true lover is more concerned about the interests of his loved one—whatever truly benefits his beloved’s soul—than about his own.
“The lover feels a holy urge to say “thank you” and “forgive me.” It flows from his heart without effort. The true lover experiences the deep truth of the words in the Canticle of Canticles: “If a man were to give the whole substance of his house for love, he would despise it as nothing.”"
Alice von Hildebrand http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/more/00031.html
The true love on which happiness rests isn’t about stuff or about sex. It is about a willing decision to love another person more than your self.
Married Man – Are you willing to die on the cross for a woman who abandons you? 70% of divorces are filed by women. They move on, and the man spends the rest of his life cleaning up the mess left behind. (Google life time alimony). Is *your* life worth so little?
When giving is equal in both directions, sign me up. When laws and courts start talking about one-way-obligations, I am out.
TO: MikeF
RE: The Problem Is…
….that many of them don’t care to listen to anything about God. Look at Ms D and gus33. Like the seeds that were taken up by the birds of the air.
Then there are those who are so hurt that they can’t think rationally anymore, e.g., Real Story. Therefore, they are like those seeds that were amongst the thorns.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Life is like an analogy. Or a parable....]
I’ve burned through two marriages with women who were schizophrenic with the impossible simultaneous aspirations of feminism and traditionalism. A partner on one day, viciously attacking out of insecurity the next. MUCH happier being alone, thank you very much.
MikeF – Changing gears a litte bit, thank you for the On True Love article by Alice Von Hildebrand. It is inspiring. I wish the law-changes of the late 1960′s/1970′s didn’t put in incentives that directly contradict the universal values reflected in that article.
Oddly, here is some data that shows, just what those legislative changes did. Here is some data from the Rutgers University Marriage study that compiled census data:
FIGURE 1
Number of Marriages per 1,000
Unmarried Women Age 15 and
Older, by Year, United States:
1960 73.5
1961 72.2
1962 71.2
1963 73.4
1964 74.6
1965 75.0
1966 75.6
1967 76.4
1968 79.1
1969 80.0
1970 76.5
1972 77.9
1975 66.9
1977 63.6
1980 61.4
1983 59.9
1985 56.2
1987 55.7
1990 54.5
1991 54.2
1992 53.3
1993 52.3
1995 50.8
2000 46.5
2004 39.9
Note: These are not divorce rates. These are net-new marriage rates. See how men started voting with their feet starting around sometime around 1969. They were reacting to the new laws. It hasn’t stopped since.
If marriage laws in effect today were the marriage laws of Abraham/Sarah’s day, or even Jesus’s day, I would have no problems doing it. But these laws are no longer there. Instead we have in place legislated banditry. A relatively recent phenomenon.
ah, they don’t want to grow up…marriage and kids are hard work, and the most important thing we can do with life…but when “happiness” is defined not as living a moral and constructive life but as Disneyland and goodies, the idea of maturity and virtue gives way to Oprah “it’s all about me me me” and Obamamania as the way to solve all our problems.
Pope Paul was right. The sexual revolution has been a way for people to make sex meaningless…so sex, once connected with maturity and children, loses the deeper connection of family and children. So we see children as a burden that need to be aborted so mommy and daddy can party….the result is fifty year olds using botox, and open marriages by gays being equated as the same as faithful partners working together to make a home safe and happy to raise children…
I have just finished reading the last words from this blog and I am not sure if what is said is all that serious if it is I would have to say i feel sadden by so much resentment towards the lady bloggers take it easy guy’s they are trying to understand what you have to say if some of the divorce laws are in favour of the mom or should I say the custodial parent (in most cases) then this I believe strongly is made to protect the children more than the adults and this is good if some spouses
who are vengeful uses these advantages to get even (man or women)like many situations in life
***T HAPPENS! but please do not think the lady’s do not see the injustices they also believe in equality and fairness like you and its the court system causing all this confusion it is unfair and outdated and needs to be corrected but you can still believe some day you will find the love of your life and ask her in marriage no advice is good from someone who feel hatred they used to say follow your heart and after living 56 years it is still my best guide for I have very few regrets.
148. David:
amazing, 1969. of course
Speaking as a single, 27-year-old Christian female, I can tell you that in this day in age, it nearly impossible to find a good man that is willing to build a relationship with you if you are committed to saving yourself for marriage. Once he figures out that you have morals, he’s out the door.
And when you seek out Christian males who are supposed to be on the same page as you regarding abstinence, they are usually the kind of guys who believe that women should be completely subservient to the man rather than a partner.
Even if I found the perfect man, who’s to say he won’t cheat on me later down the road? When men hit their mid-life crisis, they suddenly feel their youth slipping away and many of them seek ways to feel the a teenager. Usually this occurs with infidelity. And yes, I have witnessed this in nearly every 50+ something man I’ve ever known. I don’t want to enter my later years worrying that if I don’t look and act like I’m still 20, my husband will “trade up” for a younger model.
THe Value of Wife and Mother has been denigrated in this current culture of death. For the elites that promulgate the latest gender propaganda, this current state of affairs may prove that “they” were successful, but only to a point. The “others” have not yet been indoctrinated to objectify potential mates, nor to relegate being childless with being “free.” For the mature and grounded individual who understands that it is the wealthy that can postpone marriage until their 40′s and become pregnant ( lots of cash no worry about Insurance paying for insimination) for the middle class who has been herded into the mindset of no absolutes, gender being a matter of opinion, the denigration of man’s humanity, they get what they deserve. Being along at 50, with all the “toys” you want, but no one to love you.
“Too old too soon, too late too smart” not a bad adage for this subject… Men wont settle down because they have been taught that love, respecting women have no value, only hook up’s, too bad, generaton X Y and the next one will bend up with hearts of stone.
TO: Kristy
RE: Male Mid-Life Crisis, Heh….
I recommend finding a REAL man. As I like to put it…
Now. Combine that with Samuel Johnson’s famour epigram…
I don’t know of many soldiers who served in combat or combat support units who later had a mid-life crisis.
RE: Taking a Step Beyone
Maybe you’re not looking at christians there. And, would you REALLY want to spend your life with someone like that?
Yeah. It’s disappointing. Sort of like job-hunting, but with more investment. Rejection is hard to take. But in the long run, when you DO find what you’re looking for and they are seriously looking for you, it’s a better match than the train-wrecks we see every day.
Patience, woman. Patience and prayer.
RE: Personally
In my military career and christian life, I was never sorely tempted to stray from my commitment to my wives. On several occasions, I was tempted. But not beyond what I could resist. Thank God for that.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Who can find a good woman. Her value is greater than rubies.....]
I think real life is a bit simpler than all these stereotypes, as interesting as they may be to write about.
all true: life is a challenge
but it makes it even better
women are so sweet but never get attached, just enjoy)0)
TO: mph
RE: Life IS…
…what you find.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Good luck and good hunting. -- Company-grade officers to NCOs and grunts and tankers before they threw themselves into Gulf War I]
I am a man with an amazing, loving, giving American wife who I adore and have adored for 28 years. I will do so until the day I die.
However, as a pastor of a Filipino and American church I see the results of current American female cultural attitudes. Many of the Anglo men in our church are married to Filipino women after having been divorced in middle-age by their Anglo-American wives. The sad fact is, many American women have become jaded by the sensuality-driven culture. Instead of willingly adopting a full-partnership in a marriage led by a husband (but who serves his wife and family for their support and benefit), she lusts after something more, constant romantic/emotional yearning titillation, like she daily absorbs from the quasi-soap opera evening television dramas. It never occurs to her that her perspective on life is being slowly distorted and warped by an entertainment machine that is hostile to her own best interests and happiness.
In the early 1990s, Dobson sited an interesting statistic: In the United States in 1960, for every woman that left her husband and children, 200 men did. In 1990, for every man that left his wife and children, 6 women did. The situation since then has only become more pronounced. I have seen this over and over in my ministry. It nearly every marriage breakup I have seen in recent years, it is the woman, not the man, who leaves and refuses to reconcile. In the vast majority of cases, there is no adultery, no abuse, no mistreatment, just a desire not to be married any longer.
The feminist laws enacted since the 1960s have predicatably made men more averse to marriage — with good reason. A man who marries today has a 50% chance of the marriage ending in divorce. In the marriage, the woman is often self-absorbed with her wants and needs, her discomforts and stresses, to exclusion of any real concern for her husband and often her children. I know of situations where the husband comes home from work, only to be expected to cook dinner, clean the house, and completely take over care for the children while the wife, healthy and home all day, lies exhausted on the couch watching television. Who would want to choose a life like this? Then, when divorce happens, it is the woman far more often than the man, who leaves and initiates divorce. For the man, this adds insult to injury. In addition to all this, in nearly every divorce I have seen, it is the man who gets really taken financially in the divorce. He is often made to pay half of the assets in settlement, plus getting stuck with alimony and hefty child support. In almost every case, he also gets to have his character attacked in court with the tiresome and predictable charge of “abuser.”
Now, ladies, if you were a man, would you sign up for this?
Add to this the fact that your sisters (and you?) will take off your clothes for free and perform sex acts and publish them on the Internet (or do it live in strip clubs) where men can access them 24/7 without all the baggage of marriage (not that it is right, but just the reality), and the surprising thing is not “why are so few men getting married,” but “why are any men getting married at all?”
The bottom line is that all this is within the power of women to fix. But doing so will require a return to the mores of the Bible and the past. Frankly, today’s self-centered, liberated women, like self-centered men, will most likely be unwilling to pay such a “price.”
Sometimes I wonder if what women believe that men today have difficulty coping with the modern women maybe there is truth to this if you read what the guys are saying you would think they were perfect. I for one would not blame the women more than the men for the marriage breakdown there was a time when women could not leave the husband even at peril to life now they have a choice and we as men must make the effort to understand and work together or they will choose to leave why not they can survive quite well on their own it may not be easy to change but if we are stubborn we are as much to blame.
There are a few women like Dr. Helen who are willing to stand up for men out of the principle that injustice is wrong, period. Women like Dr. Helen probably only make 0.1% (at best) of the female population.
– MRA (#96)
Oh, yes, 99.9 percent of us have no interest whatsoever in justice or fairness. C’mon now. That’s no different from a radical feminist saying 99.9 percent of men secretly long to rape women.
– Donna V. (#101),
Ha ha, just as MRA predicted: “Women say, ‘Not all women are like that.’ ” Donna V. fits the profile.
Donna V., it is different. First, I doubt that you ever put as much effort into disagreeing with any such “radical feminist” as you did into wagging your finger there at MRA. By the way, feminists who accept misandrous claims such as “99.9 percent of men secretly long to rape women” aren’t “radical,” they’re the ones the mainstream feminists consider hopeless compromisers. Radical feminists say or swallow such hate speech as “all men are rapists and that’s all they are” and they, the radical ones, are accepted by mainstream feminists as the leaders and intellects of the feminist movement.
Second, despite your attempt to distort MRA’s remarks, the bar that you have to surpass to escape being justly lumped in with 99.9% of your American sisters, Donna V., isn’t to exceed “no interest whatsoever in justice or fairness”. MRA noted that, in his opinion, as few as 10% of women have that attitude. To escape being lumped in with MRA’s 99.9% of women though, you must put some serious effort into “stand(ing) up for men out of the principle that injustice is wrong, period” as Dr. Helen does. You don’t have to equal Dr. Helen’s effort, exposure, or effectiveness, Donna V., but you do have to “stand up” for men.
Quibbling in the comment section of someone else’s blog and crying “Not all women are like that!” isn’t standing up for men. Rather, it’s being self-centered on your part, Donna V.
The real reason men won’t settle is because the chances are very high that he will get screwed. For women, marriage is a “can’t lose” proposition, but for men, it’s a “highly likely you WILL lose and LOSE BIG” proposition. It’s just as simple as that.
The truth is that more than 67% of marriages will end in divorce (read the fine print – it’s NOT 50% – that doesn’t include 5 states, all with higher divorce rates). 92% of the time it will be initiated by the woman for no other reason than she is “unfulfilled” – oh, and because she gets the kids, the house, at least ½ the assets and most of his future after tax income for the next 18 years. The man will get raked over in family court. He will lose the house. He will see his kids 2 out of 14 days (if the ex doesn’t level unsubstantiated “abuse” claims.) He will be forced to hand over 40-50% of his take-home pay. If he loses his job due to illness or downsizing, the State will toss him in jail. While jailed the arrearage will grow and the state will charge interest. The State will revoke his driver’s and professional licenses, make him virtually unemployable.
If you were to take up sky-diving, and the instructor informed you that 67% of the parachutes were defective, would you take the plunge?
Until the laws change, the men’s Marriage Strike is alive and well, thank you. nomarriage.com
In case anybody thinks what Chris is saying above is fiction, check out what happened to this fellow from Massachusetts. Being mentioned by the ABA Journal no less:
http://www.abajournal.com/news/former_big_firm_lawyer_now_unemployed_still_on_the_hook_for_alimony/
Gentelemen – marry at your own risk. It is a lose/lose proposition with today’s (post-1970) laws. Your Civil Rights and the U.S. Constitution will mean nothing against the awesome dictatorial powers of the Family Court. We overthrew King George two centuries ago. But now we have a new king. All kneel before our new overlords … the Divorce Industrial Complex. The Communist Party in the old USSR never had it so good.
Why is there such a debate on this blog the fact that no women are posting any comments on the situation where men have to face in divorce court simply means they know in a divorce they will hold all the cards and I don’t believe this will change anytime soon so its a simple solution
don’t get married end of debate.
IS THAT TRUE.
Oh, stop whining.
I’ve spent my whole life being quiet, well-spoken, well-read, courteous, gentle, and considerate. I don’t yell, swear, or break wind loudly (or think it’s funny when others do.) I would have found Maxim crass and juvenalian when I was thirteen years old.
I’ve always made an effort to be a good listener, a considerate helper, and a generous friend.
In return, women have berated me, laughed in my face, demonstrated at best a considerable lack of good manners and at worst blatant disdain.
Being a “nice guy” marks a man as a wimp deserving only of derision, while women consistently seek out – and often keep coming back to – the men who abuse them physically and emotionally.
I actually had a first (and last) date with a woman who proudly displayed a bumper sticker on her SUV saying, “Men have feelings too – BUT WHO CARES?!”
The date proceeded with her explanation of how, if I was “man enough” to date her, I would simply have to accept her vicious put-downs, manipulation, and emotional abuse as the price for dating someone so gorgeous.
And yes, she WAS gorgeous. But, contrary to your old stereotypes, most men do NOT engage in belching contests, think flatulence is hilarious, or “think with their penises.”
So I told Miss Who Cares Thanks-but-no-thanks. Which just goes to show, in her eyes, what a wimp I am.
I’m 41 and I’m sick of being manipulated. I know that generalizations are all bad, and that not all women are manipulative, self-centered, and just plain mean. If, by some spectacular miracle, I find that single woman, I’ll probably marry her.
In the meantime, don’t tell ME how I’m just immature and afraid of commitment!
I only Japanese women. I can’t help it. Every time I look at Western women (regardless of race) I see a cute face but not a feminine persona. Women are acting like men in Western countries and it’s a turn off.
Good luck to the rest of you that want to eventually marry women like that…or even consider something like that.
Dating Asian women have made me see what real women and real feminine power/attraction is.
Have a nice day.
Marrying an American woman is fraught with risk. The marriage is likely to end up being an experiment in social justice where the man loses no matter what he does or doesn’t do. If kids come along, forget about it. The kids will come first, the man relegated to a walking paycheck. American women don’t know how to treat a man, they have been taught to have it all, which means at his expense. For younger men who want a family, look overseas or to newly emigrated women from traditional families. Modern American women are dangerous and steeped in the philosophy that they come first. Oh,if you are looking for good intimacy, don’t bother with the home-grown ladies. That’s a lost art.
I was born disabled and got little
help.
The women who should have nurtured
me, abandoned me, leaving me
disabled, so I say go out and
work, liberated women, as I am
on disability, now you can pay
my way through life.
Why work when women can support me?
Why bother applying for work when
these women won’t hire a disabled
man in the first place.
Let the liberated women work, and
support ME.
It’s funny reading all these comments and I haven’t found one that didn’t ‘blame’ the corporate culture. Before 70s feminism and its divorce laws, there was Hugh Hefner’s Playboy. It was a projection of Hef’s own issues about women and marriage, but since it was a mag, it had to sell. The image of the glamorous, unfettered man surrounded by willing females was used by alcohol, tobacco, clothing, perfume companies, etc — you name it. It was a great formula to sell absolutely anything, and it is still being used to this day. As for ‘immature’ female obsessions. like shoes — these are also part of corporate funding of ‘popular culture’ as depicted in tv shows (sex and the city, etc). You have to realize that these images of ‘cool, fun’ men and women are heavily funded by corporations intending to create consumerist addictions to their shows, their restaurants, their substances, shoes, anything. Unless the society maintains its connection to pre-industrial mores, there is no way it can be independent from corporate culture. Most non-American societies maintain such ties, inspite of their exposure to all this coporate inanity — this is why the relations there between the sexes remain natural (or ‘traditional’ if you will). It is natural for one spouse, whatever the sex, to prefer to work and let the other watch the house and the kids, or, once separated, to provide for the welfare of the kids. It is not natural for both spouses to want to work and not spend time with their kids, or, once separated, to milk the other as some kind of corporate move. These latter types of behavior are the creation of the proliferation and domination of corporate values in American society.
Men we have the upper hand:
Don’t get married – Get rich!
You can bang 20 year olds till the day you die. Let the women die alone, broke, and as old hags.
One thing which seems to have evaded everyone is the fact that personal responsibility is missing now. There is no incentive to grow up. There are no consequences. It used to be that when you got out of school at whatever level, you had to get a job or go hungry and be homeless. Parents did not let their kids live with them more than a couple years without paying their share after they got out of school, if that. There were no government programs that paid for everything – if there were, it was shameful to have to avial yourself of them. Now, if kids don’t get a job, they either live with and mooch off their parents forever, or the government pays their way.
So, where is the incentive? Where are the consequences for irresponsibility?