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	<title>Comments on: The Obama-Netanyahu Meeting: Ominous for Israel</title>
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		<title>By: Kaleokualoha</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-278856</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaleokualoha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-278856</guid>
		<description>I shall defer to thy wisdom in such matters, O&#039; Mighty Naftali!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I shall defer to thy wisdom in such matters, O&#8217; Mighty Naftali!</p>
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		<title>By: Naftali</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-278480</link>
		<dc:creator>Naftali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-278480</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want to leave you hanging.  If not diplomacy, then what?  I keep mentioning the forces of history.  I suggest you pay attention to some of these forces, and put your effort with them, sail with the wind at your back, so to speak.  

I understand that you prefer peaceful means to violent ones.  I see both as necessary and have no trouble with the latter.  But the most peaceful way to bring change is through scientific discovery, and like it or not, a free form of capitalism.

Now, what are the good things about capitalism that is worth getting behind. After all, we know the downside.  The very high upside is that solutions to society&#039;s ills can come from so many more directions, there is greater freedom to solve problems with the wisdom we have.

You can argue that capitalism has also caused a lot of problems.  True, because of a lack of wisdom.  You might say greed.  True.  And from this we learn that greed destroys wisdom.  But those who are wise have room to help, much more so than in any other system.  

I suggest you look at the work of James Burke, who shows that the real power to change society comes in the form of one person, not the organized group, through science, literature and philosophy, and this weird kind of fortuity that moves us towards enlightenment.  There are plenty of Burke video clips on Youtube.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to leave you hanging.  If not diplomacy, then what?  I keep mentioning the forces of history.  I suggest you pay attention to some of these forces, and put your effort with them, sail with the wind at your back, so to speak.  </p>
<p>I understand that you prefer peaceful means to violent ones.  I see both as necessary and have no trouble with the latter.  But the most peaceful way to bring change is through scientific discovery, and like it or not, a free form of capitalism.</p>
<p>Now, what are the good things about capitalism that is worth getting behind. After all, we know the downside.  The very high upside is that solutions to society&#8217;s ills can come from so many more directions, there is greater freedom to solve problems with the wisdom we have.</p>
<p>You can argue that capitalism has also caused a lot of problems.  True, because of a lack of wisdom.  You might say greed.  True.  And from this we learn that greed destroys wisdom.  But those who are wise have room to help, much more so than in any other system.  </p>
<p>I suggest you look at the work of James Burke, who shows that the real power to change society comes in the form of one person, not the organized group, through science, literature and philosophy, and this weird kind of fortuity that moves us towards enlightenment.  There are plenty of Burke video clips on Youtube.</p>
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		<title>By: Naftali</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-278132</link>
		<dc:creator>Naftali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-278132</guid>
		<description>I actually wrote replies to 194 and 195, but they&#039;re not getting posted.  I think we&#039;re pretty far down the ladder, so maybe it&#039;s best we stop the conversation.  Let me end it like this.  Diplomacy is done by diplomats.  I don&#039;t have a very high opinion of diplomats.  Historically, they tend to be quite corrupt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually wrote replies to 194 and 195, but they&#8217;re not getting posted.  I think we&#8217;re pretty far down the ladder, so maybe it&#8217;s best we stop the conversation.  Let me end it like this.  Diplomacy is done by diplomats.  I don&#8217;t have a very high opinion of diplomats.  Historically, they tend to be quite corrupt.</p>
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		<title>By: Naftali</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-277971</link>
		<dc:creator>Naftali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 04:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-277971</guid>
		<description>Okay, good, you&#039;re asking me questions, so this is dialogue.  

To 194, Gorby already decided in 1985 that Russia had to reform.  And he knew how it had to reform.  That&#039;s the good news.  That means that it was possible to talk to the West, to forge economic, cultural, and scientific agreements.  The bad news is that you didn&#039;t quite know which new enemies he made by making that decision, nor did you really know how much longer he would live.  Russia, to this day, is not kind in political wars.  The other bad news is that Russia became completely unstable--so the country itself was in a kind of pathology.  They&#039;ve wanted to join the western economy since Gorbachev, and it still hasn&#039;t happened.  That is, in the West the Ruble is no different than toilet paper.

Let me check one thing--okay, I was thinking that the Soviets allowing emigration was something, but the Reagan meeting was about nuclear arms, and didn&#039;t go anywhere.  Since Gorby, the political civil war has been intense, and Putin is busy restoring the old politburo.

To sum up, I suppose nothing was accomplished with diplomacy unless you&#039;re aware of something.  The emigration evidently was part of a general plan to restore population control with a severely weakened central government.  That dynamic is a natural force of history.

Regarding 195--No doubt that you can talk to the successors, but you&#039;ll accomplish very little.  China wants Obama to be more economically conservative.  What are the chances?  Do you think Obama will get China to relinquish Tibet?  Will it even come up?  Hillary went to China and literally said that the US is going to overlook human rights issues because economic issues were so important.  So once again, diplomacy fails in the area of human rights.

Diplomats have the personalities of movie stars, but are just so darned unattractive that they tend to crave power for power&#039;s sake.  Sad really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, good, you&#8217;re asking me questions, so this is dialogue.  </p>
<p>To 194, Gorby already decided in 1985 that Russia had to reform.  And he knew how it had to reform.  That&#8217;s the good news.  That means that it was possible to talk to the West, to forge economic, cultural, and scientific agreements.  The bad news is that you didn&#8217;t quite know which new enemies he made by making that decision, nor did you really know how much longer he would live.  Russia, to this day, is not kind in political wars.  The other bad news is that Russia became completely unstable&#8211;so the country itself was in a kind of pathology.  They&#8217;ve wanted to join the western economy since Gorbachev, and it still hasn&#8217;t happened.  That is, in the West the Ruble is no different than toilet paper.</p>
<p>Let me check one thing&#8211;okay, I was thinking that the Soviets allowing emigration was something, but the Reagan meeting was about nuclear arms, and didn&#8217;t go anywhere.  Since Gorby, the political civil war has been intense, and Putin is busy restoring the old politburo.</p>
<p>To sum up, I suppose nothing was accomplished with diplomacy unless you&#8217;re aware of something.  The emigration evidently was part of a general plan to restore population control with a severely weakened central government.  That dynamic is a natural force of history.</p>
<p>Regarding 195&#8211;No doubt that you can talk to the successors, but you&#8217;ll accomplish very little.  China wants Obama to be more economically conservative.  What are the chances?  Do you think Obama will get China to relinquish Tibet?  Will it even come up?  Hillary went to China and literally said that the US is going to overlook human rights issues because economic issues were so important.  So once again, diplomacy fails in the area of human rights.</p>
<p>Diplomats have the personalities of movie stars, but are just so darned unattractive that they tend to crave power for power&#8217;s sake.  Sad really.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaleokualoha</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-277913</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaleokualoha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 03:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-277913</guid>
		<description>Another thought:  We may be talking about apples and oranges here.  Do you consider Gorby, and other Soviet and Chinese leaders since Mao and Stalin to be &quot;genocidal madmen&quot;?  Diplomacy was generally more productive with these successors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought:  We may be talking about apples and oranges here.  Do you consider Gorby, and other Soviet and Chinese leaders since Mao and Stalin to be &#8220;genocidal madmen&#8221;?  Diplomacy was generally more productive with these successors.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaleokualoha</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-277797</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaleokualoha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 00:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-277797</guid>
		<description>Do you believe that Reagan&#039;s summits with Gorby were entirely worthless in reforming Russia?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you believe that Reagan&#8217;s summits with Gorby were entirely worthless in reforming Russia?</p>
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		<title>By: Naftali</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-277750</link>
		<dc:creator>Naftali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 23:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-277750</guid>
		<description>Believe it or not, I used to specialize in this type of thing for families.  So I understand the process, and I&#039;ve done it successfully in the real world, in very tense situations.  That said, here is my analysis of the effect of diplomacy on Russia.

None, no effect.  I believe that capitalism is the enzyme that has improved the life of the average Russian.  This is now being reversed.  The same with China, the more capitalism the more human rights.  China&#039;s present internal conflict is reconciling capitalism and Confucianism.  They don&#039;t need anyone&#039;s help, nor do they want it.  It&#039;s odd, but China is telling the US to adopt a more conservative capitalistic approach to our own economy, not the Republicans.  This is weird, but that&#039;s the way it is.  

Diplomacy is well and good when you are not dealing with psychopaths.  But there is a remarkably high correlation between mass murder and psychopathology.  Saddam was a psychopath, as is Kim, as are so many world leaders.  Castro, Che, Chavez, all psychopaths.  Ahmedinijad, psychopath.  Hitler, you know, Stalin, yep.  And therein lies the real problem with diplomacy.

The great age of diplomacy was the 19th century--the diplomacy mostly consisted of secret treaties and secret clauses in treaties that basically lined up which armies were going to fight whom, when.  So even in this great age, the diplomacy was ultimately about who is going to use military force under what circumstances, not establishing common ground.  They just frightened everyone into peace.  Ironic, or is this the way of the world?  I think it&#039;s the way of the world.

Now, for many years, the world has been trying your approach, and for the most part, failing miserably.  The 20th century has been the bloodiest century in the history of mankind, and it got that way through the relentless belief in the power of diplomacy.

So that&#039;s where I&#039;m coming from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Believe it or not, I used to specialize in this type of thing for families.  So I understand the process, and I&#8217;ve done it successfully in the real world, in very tense situations.  That said, here is my analysis of the effect of diplomacy on Russia.</p>
<p>None, no effect.  I believe that capitalism is the enzyme that has improved the life of the average Russian.  This is now being reversed.  The same with China, the more capitalism the more human rights.  China&#8217;s present internal conflict is reconciling capitalism and Confucianism.  They don&#8217;t need anyone&#8217;s help, nor do they want it.  It&#8217;s odd, but China is telling the US to adopt a more conservative capitalistic approach to our own economy, not the Republicans.  This is weird, but that&#8217;s the way it is.  </p>
<p>Diplomacy is well and good when you are not dealing with psychopaths.  But there is a remarkably high correlation between mass murder and psychopathology.  Saddam was a psychopath, as is Kim, as are so many world leaders.  Castro, Che, Chavez, all psychopaths.  Ahmedinijad, psychopath.  Hitler, you know, Stalin, yep.  And therein lies the real problem with diplomacy.</p>
<p>The great age of diplomacy was the 19th century&#8211;the diplomacy mostly consisted of secret treaties and secret clauses in treaties that basically lined up which armies were going to fight whom, when.  So even in this great age, the diplomacy was ultimately about who is going to use military force under what circumstances, not establishing common ground.  They just frightened everyone into peace.  Ironic, or is this the way of the world?  I think it&#8217;s the way of the world.</p>
<p>Now, for many years, the world has been trying your approach, and for the most part, failing miserably.  The 20th century has been the bloodiest century in the history of mankind, and it got that way through the relentless belief in the power of diplomacy.</p>
<p>So that&#8217;s where I&#8217;m coming from.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaleokualoha</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-277686</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaleokualoha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 22:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-277686</guid>
		<description>The key to settling even the most extreme disputes is identifying any areas of commonality between opponents.  Can we agree that diplomacy has had SOME effect on improving Russia&#039;s human rights record, with the point of contention be HOW MUCH effect?  

If we can agree to this point, then HOW MUCH may never be reconciled because there are no existing metrics to measure such an effect on an infinitely divisible spectrum.  The only alternative is crude descriptors such as &quot;a lot&quot; or &quot;not very much,&quot; etc., which are as useless as trying to measure the degree of socialism in an economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key to settling even the most extreme disputes is identifying any areas of commonality between opponents.  Can we agree that diplomacy has had SOME effect on improving Russia&#8217;s human rights record, with the point of contention be HOW MUCH effect?  </p>
<p>If we can agree to this point, then HOW MUCH may never be reconciled because there are no existing metrics to measure such an effect on an infinitely divisible spectrum.  The only alternative is crude descriptors such as &#8220;a lot&#8221; or &#8220;not very much,&#8221; etc., which are as useless as trying to measure the degree of socialism in an economy.</p>
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		<title>By: Naftali</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-277651</link>
		<dc:creator>Naftali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 22:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-277651</guid>
		<description>I had two replies written, again I&#039;m not sure if they&#039;ve been deleted, but if so, it&#039;s probably because they sense that the conversation is becoming less and less diplomatic.  So if you and I can&#039;t work things through, imagine how entire nations will act.  

Practice what you preach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had two replies written, again I&#8217;m not sure if they&#8217;ve been deleted, but if so, it&#8217;s probably because they sense that the conversation is becoming less and less diplomatic.  So if you and I can&#8217;t work things through, imagine how entire nations will act.  </p>
<p>Practice what you preach.</p>
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		<title>By: Naftali</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-obama-netanyahu-meeting-ominous-for-israel/#comment-277547</link>
		<dc:creator>Naftali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 20:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=56656#comment-277547</guid>
		<description>Oh, just a little bit more.  I&#039;m not ignoring the fact that there was a summit.  I&#039;m saying that it was comparably ineffective in bringing about the changes in the Soviet Union.  You are the one who has ignored the decades of decay and repression held together by the fear of the Soviet Army, and that once that fear vanished, so did the Soviet Union.

And isn&#039;t it funny, but I view your insistence on talking about Amnesty International as your attempts to avoid the issue of the vacuity of your own thoughts.  How about that, Genius?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, just a little bit more.  I&#8217;m not ignoring the fact that there was a summit.  I&#8217;m saying that it was comparably ineffective in bringing about the changes in the Soviet Union.  You are the one who has ignored the decades of decay and repression held together by the fear of the Soviet Army, and that once that fear vanished, so did the Soviet Union.</p>
<p>And isn&#8217;t it funny, but I view your insistence on talking about Amnesty International as your attempts to avoid the issue of the vacuity of your own thoughts.  How about that, Genius?</p>
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