The Nation’s Blackwater Charge a Dud
The Nation is claiming to have information from informants that Blackwater founder Erik Prince is some sort of delusional latter-day Templar Knight, ordering murders to cover up his plot to wage war against the Islamic world. If it sounds a bit far-fetched … well, it should.
Without going into the specific allegations being made in the consolidated civil cases, logic and factual errors in claims made in the article are troubling. See this claim from a man who claims to be a former member of the Blackwater management team, identified as John Doe #2:
Using his various companies, [Prince] procured and distributed various weapons, including unlawful weapons such as sawed-off semi-automatic machine guns with silencers, through unlawful channels of distribution.
There are no such firearms as “semi-automatic machine guns.”
In fact, the terms are mutually exclusive, a basic fact that any manager at a military contractor would almost certainly know. A weapon may be semi-automatic, capable of one shot per trigger pull, or it may be a selective-fire or fully-automatic-only machine gun, capable of firing for as long as the trigger is depressed and the weapon has a supply of ammunition from a belt or magazine. It cannot be both.
Nor are military units prone to using sawed-off weapons of any type.
Some units, including the personal security details (PSDs) fielded by Blackwater, use short-barrel rifles, but at no point are they “sawed-off.” They are manufactured with shorter barrels. Further, many firearms with short barrels abbreviated beyond a certain length require retuning or redesigning the entire operating system to make it reliable, something generally only done on the manufacturer level.
Sawing off a modern combat rifle would make it deadly to the user. It’s a preposterous claim.
It is also worth noting that there is nothing specifically illegal about the use of silencers. Correctly called suppressors, they have some limited military use in certain situations. That said, it would make very little sense for Blackwater PSDs to use them to any great degree. Why? Most suppressors function by having a series of baffled chambers that capture and slow the expulsion of burning gasses that propel a bullet, slowing them down to subsonic speeds to reduce the noise of the gunshot somewhat. To do this, a series of baffled chambers are enclosed in a long tube that attaches to the end of a gun barrel. Most suppressors are at least four to six inches in length, which presents a significant problem to security detail members that typically operate in close quarters, in buildings, and around vehicles.
Stealth is not needed, but speed and weapon mobility is life. Silencers are neither needed nor wanted by PSDs, because they make it more likely that your weapon will snag on projections or vehicle interiors, increasing your deployment time and adding no practical benefit to the shooter.
It is impossible to determine at this point if the company was using “unlawful channels of distribution” to acquire weapons in Iraq, but weapons that Doe #2 claims were shipped simply do not exist as described.
The frangible bullet concept goes even further. The purpose is not necessarily to cause maximum damage to the target, but to incapacitate that intended target while reducing collateral damage to non-targets. Civilian police use them to ensure that rounds fired at legimimate felons do not continue on through the felon, adjacent walls, cars and other human beings to cause unintended carnage to the civilian population that you might get with a conventional round. In that respect, frangible rounds are used for exactly the opposite purpose claimed by Doe.
I’m no fan of Blackwater, I think their whole business model revolves around poaching qualified people from the military and then renting them back to the government that trained them at a much higher rate. But these allegations seem ridiculous. A “sawed-off semi-automatic machine guns with silencers” sounds like the sort of thing a 5th grader would brag about having. Thankfully, this is why we have a criminal justice system with finding of fact, any competent defense attorney is going to shred this thing before it even gets to court.
“They are manufactured with shorter barrels. Further, many firearms with short barrels abbreviated beyond a certain length require retuning or redesigning the entire operating system to make it reliable, something generally only done on the manufacturer level.
Sawing off a modern combat rifle would make it deadly to the user. It’s a preposterous claim.”
This is not really true. It all depends on the rifle and system but a m16/m4 type rifle can have the barrel cut down to near nothing and still be perfectly safe. We used to take our standard issue short rifles to the machinists on post and have them lathe the barrels down another 2 inchs because of the really tight working space we worked into. However its a meaningless point… in all the vast things that the UN considers a war crime(to including breathing) having a “sawed off” shotgun is not one that I know of… and I know alot of them.
Why quibble about the minor charges when the real shocker is the claim that Prince conspired to murder whistleblowers? You wouldn’t be trying to avoid that issue, by any chance, would you?
What we know for certain is that Blackwater’s “contractors” killed 17 Iraqi civilians in Baghdad two years ago, for no reason at all. Those men are under indictment in the US for manslaughter.
Do you really want to quibble about the caliber of the bullets that killed them?
Compared to the specificity and verisimilitude of these allegations, obtained under oath, the points raised in this article seem vague and desperate, like a kid saying, “Yeah, I know you’re selling lemonade, but it’s not even sunny today. Everybody knows that you sell lemonade on sunny days not PARTLY sunny days.” This is nothing more than the need of the right to rationalize everything, good or awful, that happened under Bush, like hiring a right-wing Christian militia that didn’t answer to any military code of justice justice nor any civilian laws to do the job of American soldiers.
#4 Shef Rogers and #5 Now and Then
The problem is that some of the specific claims about military weaponry being made by supposedly ex-military members is clearly false. We can’t say for sure whether the other allegations are true but the obvious falsehoods in the testimony make it doubtful.
“Do you really want to quibble about the caliber of the bullets that killed them?”
Yes, that’s what our legal system calls “evidence”. If it turned out, for example, that they were killed with 7.62mm bullets from an AK-47 rather than the 5.56mm you would expect to see from American or NATO weapons then that would be “evidence” that they didn’t do it.
The fact that PJM continues to defend Blackwater is just another piece of evidence to add to the pile that the right-wing in this country has completely lost any sense of morals or decency.
Blackwater destroyed our relationship with Iraq and lost us our battle for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Their continual indiscriminate targeting of civilians, especially woemna and children was horrific, and each new report that comes out seems to lend credence to the notion that Erik Prince is an evangelical psychopath who believed his mission in Iraq was a crusade in the most literal sense to cause gratuitous brutality and death to any and all Muslims.
Prince should be rotting in jail. The author should be ashamed of himself for defending such an abominable human being. PJM should be ashamed of itself for publishing this.
To 4. Shef Rogers
You do understand that those charges have been proven false right? The FBI “confirmed” that the weapons used to kill those ppl were not the contractors.
That whole trial is nothing more then a petty anti-military whine by the left to try to imprison US soldiers for “crimes that the left deems all US soldiers commit daily in iraq”.
#7 Anonymous
Where did you read that the FBI confirmed they weren’t Blackwater weapons? I just checked and all I could find was this http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-04-01-blackwater-report_N.htm?csp=15
saying that the ballistics were “inconclusive”. They found casings from Chinese and Yugoslav 7.62mm rounds but since this is Iraq it’s not exactly the first time anyones ever fired an AK-47 in that particular location. The bodies were buried before sundown of course so there’s no way to confirm who was killed with what.
The Nation is claiming to have information from informants that Blackwater founder Erik Prince is some sort of delusional latter-day Templar Knight, ordering murders to cover up his plot to wage war against the Islamic world. If it sounds a bit far-fetched … well, it should.
The Nation claims no such thing. In fact, the Nation reports that:
A former Blackwater employee and an ex-US Marine who has worked as a security operative for the company have made a series of explosive allegations in sworn statements filed on August 3 in federal court in Virginia.
These are the sworn statements:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/thenation/pdf/JohnDoe2Declaration.pdf
http://s3.amazonaws.com/thenation/pdf/JohnDoe1Declaration.pdf
Trying to smear the Nation for reporting on facts, and providing evidence and links to their statements, is simply mendacious at worst, crap reporting at best. I would say that your readers would be the ultimate judge of which is the case, but I doubt they have the cognitive skills necessary for critical thinking.
We’ll have to see what actual evidence turns up to support either deposition.
The first “John Doe” testimony sounds more plausible than the second, even though there are the “all the evidence was destroyed and everything was covered up” statements and insinuations. The second sounds like someone pulled some guy off the street and gave them a “script” of crap to throw against a wall in hopes that something sticks. I think the only things they didn’t accuse Eric Prince and Blackwater of in the second deposition was devil worship (well maybe not, because to the Liberal establishment being Christian IS devil worship), dumping nuclear waste into our drinking water, and being the source of Global Climate Change.
Basically the first bears investigation, the second seems like an attempt to financially punish the accused via legal fees. We’ve seen the left use that tactic before. It might also be interesting to look into Prince’s and Blackwater personnel’s political contributions, are they heavy Republican contributors? Its likely in light of the recent trend in car dealership closings.
To 9. Paul in MI
you should keep up on the case. The AG said the weapons were confirmed as blackwater’s weapons… period no doubt no anything. All of the AG’s whole case is based on this “fact” along with a host of other “facts” that have never been proven to be real. The whole cased is based on NOTHING. If these guys were cops the judges would have laughed this case out of the court room and had the AG in jail already.
The FBI can’t even tell if the wounds were made by a 7.62 round or a 5.56… any noob who knows the first thing about how forensics works knows that the wounds created by a 7.62 round are highly different from a 5.56 round. The fact that the FBI can’t “figure out” which made the wounds either means their zero evidence of a crime even being committed or that the FBI is purposely avoiding making a judgment because it doesn’t fit into the story line.
The bottom line is their is NO proof that blackwater even killed these ppl and theirs VERY VERY LITTLE proof that these ppl even died. No court in the US should have even toughed this case with a ten foot pole because it is a complete joke.
Scott
It might also be interesting to look into Prince’s and Blackwater personnel’s political contributions, are they heavy Republican contributors?
Are you really this ignorant about this subject?
Prince serves as vice president of the Edgar and Elsa Prince Foundation. Salon reports that “between July 2003 and July 2006, the foundation gave at least $670, 000 to the Family Research Council and $531, 000 to Focus on the Family”[15] headed by James Dobson. The foundation is also a major donor to Calvin College[16], a Christian institution in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Prince also serves as a board member of Christian Freedom International, a non-profit group with a mission of helping “Christians who are persecuted for their faith in Jesus Christ.”
Since 1998, Prince has personally donated over $200, 000 to Republican causes.[17][18][19] Prince is a donor, along with others to the Alliance Defense Fund, a conservative Christian legal group.[20] Prince had also contributed money to the Green Party of Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, though this has been interpreted as an unsuccessful attempt to help Republican candidate Rick Santorum in his race against Democratic challenger Bob Casey.[21]
Former Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards has characterized Prince as one of George W. Bush’s “political cronies.”[22] Prince has denied using family clout to obtain contracts for Blackwater.[23]
No wonder sheer fabrications like this get so much traction with Republicans and Libertarians. You people don’t seem to know anything.
#12 Anonymous
So (again) where did you read that? And how did the FBI get to look at the bodies? The event happened on September 16th, the FBI got involved on October 4th. The bodies would have been in the ground for almost 3 weeks by that point, did they dig them up?
To 14. Paul in MI
How about reading what I posted instead of trying to deny reality. THEIR IS NO PROOF OF ANYTHING. THE WHOLE TRIAL IS A STAGED JOKE. Get it through your thick skull.
The FBI has NO PROOF. The AG has NO PROOF. The case is based on the statements of a handful of ppl accusing the blackwater guys… of which are directly contradicted by the government personal that blackwater was escorting at the time.
The trial amounts to saying a police officer killed “someone” because 30 mob bosses say in their “sworn” statements that he did it.
#15 Anonymous
Oh, okay I get it now. Just one last question, where did you read that?
To 16. Paul in MI
Read what? You posted the story where the FBI says they can’t figure it out. I followed the case reasonable closely until the FBI came out and said “we got nothing”. I knew the thing from the start was a joke but the FBI just confirmed it with that. Plus I’m pretty sure the AG that first filed the charged has resigned…
Anonymous:
The case is based on the statements of a handful of ppl accusing the blackwater guys…
For a minute there, I thought you were talking about Mohammed Jawad, the Afghan teenager being held on hearsay evidence and a confession extracted from torture. He was in Guantanamo for seven years under the Bush administration and only now has the Obama administration admitted that the Bush era charges were baseless. Still, they haven’t let him go. If you people really were interested in constitutional freedoms, you’d open your eyes to the real threats to the constitution, instead of finding a constant cavalcade of imaginary enemies to tilt against.
Well lets go over your story shall we.
“The FBI “confirmed” that the weapons used to kill those ppl were not the contractors.”
That sounds convincing, they must have used ballistic fingerprinting to prove that the bullets that killed these people weren’t from Blackwater guns.
“The FBI can’t even tell if the wounds were made by a 7.62 round or a 5.56″
But wait, if they can’t tell whether the wounds are even from a certain caliber weapon how can they rule out Blackwater?
“and theirs VERY VERY LITTLE proof that these ppl even died.”
Except for the dead bodies with unidentifiable wounds I guess.
So your position is that these people who may or may not actually be dead have wounds that are totally unidentifiable but at the same time definitely not from Blackwater weapons? Did I miss anything?
You’ll forgive me if I have a hard time taking the word of someone who posts as “Anonymous”, doesn’t know the difference between “their” and “there” or “personal” and “personnel” , can’t come up with a single source to back up his claims, and isn’t completely sure whether we have a different Attorney General than we did in 2007.
To 18. Moho
lol thats a good joke.
To 19. Paul in MI
Thats the point paul. The AG said they had “confirmed” it already that they were if from blackwater weapons. The FBI “can’t” confirm it… anyone even with a basic understanding of forensics knows that its very very easy to tell the difference between a 7.62 round and a 5.56 round. The fact that the FBI can’t figure out which type of round means that either
A. They couldn’t even confirm that it was a bullet.
B. They are purposely avoiding ruling because they don’t want to get sued.
Thats why I put confirmed in quotes because it all but confirms that their is zero proof that blackwater did it.
“Except for the dead bodies with unidentifiable wounds I guess.”
What dead bodies? I haven’t see any… if their were dead bodies why haven’t the FBI looked at them to CONFIRM what type of bullets were used… because these bodies MAY OR MAY NOT EVEN EXIST.
“So your position is that these people who may or may not actually be dead have wounds that are totally unidentifiable but at the same time definitely not from Blackwater weapons? Did I miss anything?”
My position is that if your going to file legal charges you should have some proof… and the statements of a bunch of ppl saying that a crime MAY have been committed who have every reason to lie VS the statements of both blackwater AND a 3rd party who have no reason to lie. I ask simply WHERE IS THE PROOF… NONE has been submitted to even show that a crime was even committed or that anyone even died.
#13. Moho
“Are you really this ignorant about this subject?”
I have no reason to research a private citizen’s campaign contributions unless they are pertinent to an ethic’s issue/investigation involving a public official. At this point this is the first I’ve read about these particular depositions, there was some controversy surrounding Blackwater a while ago but they dropped out of the public eye. Just because I had yet to Wikkipedia Eric Prince (u r soooo 1337, smart, n cool bcuz u can google. Can I be you?) doesn’t discount my comments about the Jon Doe documents.
You merely prove the point I was making when I mentioned the campaign contributions with your copy & past from Wikkipedia. If the names in your copy & paste were say “Planned Parenthood” and “Democratic Party” I’d bet money that Jon Doe 1 & 2 wouldn’t be on file anywhere saying squat about Eric Prince & Blackwater.
#21 Anonymous
“What dead bodies? I haven’t see any…”
Here’s the thing. You are literally the only person I have heard of claiming that there were no deaths caused by Blackwater on September 16, 2007. Even Blackwater admits that their guys fired after they were attacked. Iraqi witnesses say there was no provocation and that it may have been as many as 26 killed. But the point is that everyone but you accepts that at least 14 people died that day and were buried before the FBI even started an investigation. Since they’d been in the ground for at least 3 weeks it was probably difficult to identify bullet wounds by caliber. It was a crowded intersection and there are hundreds of witnesses who saw the Blackwater convoy firing into traffic. One of them has already pleaded guilty. http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/dc/Press_Releases/2008%20Archives/December/08-1068.pdf
“statements of a bunch of ppl saying that a crime MAY have been committed who have every reason to lie VS the statements of both blackwater AND a 3rd party who have no reason to lie.”
In what parallel universe do you live where murder suspects have no reason to lie about whether or not they murdered someone? You’ve got it backwards, the Iraqis have no reason to lie, they’ve got nothing to gain from a criminal conviction. The only reference I can find to the State Dept. commenting on it is “The State Department has said only that “innocent life was lost.”" from here http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/07/iraq.main/?iref=mpstoryview
“I ask simply WHERE IS THE PROOF”
Obviously there was enough proof for a 35 count indictment and for a judge to decline to drop the charges. http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/dc/Victim_Witness_Assistance/files/VirginianPilotFeb172009.pdf
To 23. Paul in MI
You can not be serious. Your understanding of law and forensics and this case is a complete and utter joke.
I don’t doubt that ppl died ppl die every day. What is in is were they killed and by who.
Time some time to read some basic law, forensics and some history about iraq and wars in general then come back… but I’m tired of debating a complete child who doesn’t even understand the basic concepts evidence or trial law.
24. Anonymous: “Time some time to read some basic law, forensics and some history about iraq and wars in general then come back… but I’m tired of debating a complete child who doesn’t even understand the basic concepts evidence or trial law.”
Or do you mean you’re just tired of debating someone who, unlike you, can actually provide links to evidence to support his claims? Yeah, I can see how that would be difficult for you.
#24 Anonymous
Fair enough, I’m not a lawyer or a forensics expert but judging by your spelling and grammar, neither are you.
You know who are lawyers and experts on evidence in trial law, though? Assistant U.S. Attorneys Kenneth C. Kohl and Jonathan M. Malis from the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia, as well as Barry Jonas, Trial Attorney from the Justice Department’s National Security Division. All of them are working on the prosecution. Also U.S. District Judge Ricardo Urbina seems to think there may be some merit to this case. No doubt you know more than any of them about what happened that day though.
Not that it’s all that relevant but I probably know a lot more about wars and particularly war in Iraq than you do. Been there done that.
2. Paul in MI: I’m no fan of Blackwater, I think their whole business model revolves around poaching qualified people from the military and then renting them back to the government that trained them at a much higher rate.
Paul, you forget: Soldiers are paid poverty level wages. I, for one, can’t begrudge them a little income increase…
#26 Wancow
I don’t begrudge the soldiers anything, I’ve got two friends who signed on with private contractors after they got out. My complaint is that the US government shouldn’t be creating a market for Blackwater to operate in. If we didn’t hire Blackwater, they wouldn’t poach qualified soldiers and sell them back to us.
On the subject of wages, it wasn’t that bad for me when I was in. I had room and board covered so after I made my car and cell phone payments for the month, everything else was discretionary income. Don’t get me wrong, soldiers are not paid nearly enough to do the job they do but I don’t remember ever being broke when I was in the Army.
Why quibble about the minor charges when the real shocker is the claim that Prince conspired to murder whistleblowers?
because having the most basic facts wrong makes it unlikely that the surprising facts would be right.
These mistakes make this sound like some bar-room braggart telling stories to a credulous, ignorant, intern.
Wancow, you’re absolutely right. Maybe we should legalize murder in the US so that soldiers can have some upward mobility.
“4. Shef Rogers:
Why quibble about the minor charges when the real shocker is the claim that Prince conspired to murder whistleblowers? ”
Well, in all fairness … if such be true, it is not like he could fire them like Uhboma does.
30. Moho:
Wancow, you’re absolutely right. Maybe we should legalize murder in the US so that soldiers can have some upward mobility.
..Already been done. Just it works that way for Uhboma favored Doctors.
#24 Anonymous
I’m leaving now, you can come back and vomit stupidity around again without having to worry about being whacked with the Logic Bat. Have a lovely evening.
4. Shef Rogers:
Why quibble about the minor charges when the real shocker is the claim that Prince conspired to murder whistleblowers?
Well, to be fair(should such be true), it is not like he could fire the said whistleblowers like Uhboma does.
To 25. Graham L.
Links are meaningless unless they have facts… anyone can check out a book on rocket science doesn’t mean they understand it when they read it.
To 28. Paul in MI
Based on how you post and the knowledge of the military that you have I find it laughable at best to believe you were in the army.
Paul, the PSDs were hired to protect contractors and such, that is not the military’s job and there is no government agency at all that does those things. The government didn’t create any market, or are you saying that wealthy people get their security from government agencies? I don’t get your position.
As for the story, yes those claims are absurd. It sounds like the rantings of an anti-gun nut, much like the ones that were claiming that a .50 caliber rifle could shoot planes out of the sky. Blackwater is not in he habit of shooting innocent bystanders so if they did indeed kill those people, it would have been negligence, assuming that those people were not terrorists whos friends ran off with their weapons (were women and children killed? I forget.) The FBI cannot gather any evidence because even if they could prove who was there and died as a result of the encounter, they still could not do an autopsy, it violates Islamic beliefs. The desecration of the body is a very serious thing to them because they believe they cannot enter heaven if it occurs. In addition, the manslaughter charge makes no sense. If the took it upon themselves to shoot people unprovoked, that would be murder. Voluntary manslaughter implies provocation. A guilty plea implies feelings of guilt or bad legal advice, take your pick, but could also be an indicator that non-combatants were indeed killed. All evidence that any of us are aware of at this point isn’t enough to convict.
The Obama Administration stating that kid was held on baseless accusations and hearsay is just another indicator of their endless pandering. If indeed he was innocent as they say, he would have been released and likely compensated.
Thanks Moho for comparing people who change jobs for better pay and benefits to murderers. Tell us how you really feel.
To 36. Rob
“A guilty plea implies feelings of guilt or bad legal advice, take your pick, but could also be an indicator that non-combatants were indeed killed. All evidence that any of us are aware of at this point isn’t enough to convict.”
Its not even so much either of that… the fact that an AG would file charges with no proof at all that crimes were committed is enough to scare anyone into the simple that that they would not get a fair trial…
The AG filed charges against everyone in blackwater even the drives hoping that some would take the easy way out under the fact that it will cost millions to defend themselves and by the simple fact that their is no evidence and that the charges are bogus. The AG is doing everything he can to make the threat of an completely unfair trial. The sad fact is though they likely won’t get a fair trial since the judge hasn’t throw these completely bogus charges out yet.
Its a matter of risk vs reward. They can spend millions to defend themselves vs fake charges. Or they can get a plea bargain spend 10k and maybe a month in jail… you tell me logically which is the better choice more so if your older and your about to retire… well paul…its very clear that your not in the military and if you were chances are your were kicked out.
“Anonymous” is anonymous for good reason. He’s obviously up to his neck in the Blackwater mess. Or maybe he prefers to remain anonymous for fear his old second-grade teacher will hunt him down for failing to learn even the most basic spelling and punctuation.
There erroneous statements made by BOTH parties in that ‘article.’
.
Anyone with a decent bit of knowledge regarding firearms will know what I’m talking about.
To 38. Shef Rogers
I “prefer” anonymous because they removed the remember button and I type way to fast. Since I started the debate as such I figured I’d stay as such…
And yes being a US soldier and knowing that a bunch of libtards would happily file this same type of suit against and every single soldier in the US army, if it wasn’t for the massive public backlash that would happen…. every soldier is up to the neck in this blackwater mess. I ran convey and patrols in iraq(among many things). If these blackwater guys are found guilty then pretty much every single soldier in the US army can be found guilty of the same crime should they defend themselves from attack.
It could easily be me up on the stand or any other US soldier. So yeah your damn right I’m up to my neck in it.
Hmm “…hand grenade launchers…” I have two of these, although the left arm throws better than the right. I can however bat left and right handed, so can defend against other “hand grenade launchers” from both sides of the trench.
When the Germans dressed as Americans during the Battle of the Bulge, they did not understand that ‘NMI’ on the ID cards meant “no middle initial”, so put NMI on all their faked cards. “…sawed-off semi-automatic machine guns with silencers” indeed.
40. robotech master
There is a problem with your argument … Blackwater personnel are civilians and fall under different laws than active duty military personnel.
As far as BW, if you spend some time researching the company and it’s activities, you will find a LOT of questionable actions. The company in general is not held in high regards by a large part of the civilian specops community. They are the bottom feeders of the industry.
And yes being a US soldier and knowing that a bunch of libtards would happily file this same type of suit against and every single soldier in the US army, if it wasn’t for the massive public backlash that would happen…. every soldier is up to the neck in this blackwater mess. I ran convey and patrols in iraq(among many things). If these blackwater guys are found guilty then pretty much every single soldier in the US army can be found guilty of the same crime should they defend themselves from attack.
Bull. I wish you people would stop draping yourself in my flag to defend the absuses of Blackwater. The so-called sovereign democratic government of Iraq–the one we apparently gave so many lives to create, wants these people’s heads on a pike, not the regular army. Blackwater gave every American soldier in the world a bad name, and is doing more to endanger them than any “libtard” could. A private militia, playing by a different set of rules in a foreign occupation, is probably the worst thing that could ever happen to regular army personnel. I have family members serving–stop endangering them with your ignorant bs.
#40 RM
“It could easily be me up on the stand or any other US soldier.”
You’re an expert on law so please explain how a US soldier would end up on trial in civilian court for a “crime” committed in Iraq. In your answer be sure to address the SOFA and UCMJ. Bonus points for correct spelling and punctuation.
Is it wrong that I hope Blackwater is waging war against the “islamic world”? Have you seen what these islamist barbarians are doing around the world to innocent people? Maybe we need Christian warriors with a 10th century mindset in order to battle the 10th century mindset islamic fanatics. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire for the sheer purposes of survival. It isn’t pretty but it’s the reality that’s been thrust upon a peace loving people by blood thirsty monsters. And I’ve also done a bit of research on Blackwater (as my name implies) and it wouldn’t surprise me if they did have “illegal” weapons. From what I heard they’re basically used as guinea pigs to test out the latest and greatest military/tactical hardware in the world. I personally think that kind of adds to their cool mystique. Sorry for my “extreme” views, but sometimes when you feel your entire civilization is under attack by barbaric religious fanatics it’s nice to know that we also have scary knights in shining armor who are ready to strike back with 10x the fury…
Long live Blackwater in my opinion. They’re some of our finest Americans. We could use some more like them. You need loose cannons constantly on the edge of the rules to really kick some ass sometimes.
And here’s a little preemptive strike at the inevitable critics of my previous comment.
Critics of Blackwater like to bring up the fact that he gave generous donations to Christian activist groups that worked to protect persecuted Christians throughout the world. The only way you could criticize those donations is to be completely ignorant to the very real persecution of Christians around the world. Especially by islamists. Maybe you should do a bit of research on the global persecution of Christians before you brush it off as some load of hogwash. Young Christian girls are having their heads heads sawed off while their islamist murders scream Allah Akbar “God is Great!” in glee. They kidnap Christian children and women from their families and force them to convert to islam. They also kill them and sell them into slavery (literally) both sexually and more ancient hard labor (look deeper into what’s really happening in Darfur to black Christians at the hands of arab muslims). This isn’t a damn joke. It’s a grave crime against humnaity. These poor people are called “dhimmis” in these islamic majority countries are treated like sub-human scum. God forbid we help defend these beseiged innocent people. But when the founder of Blackwater tries to help them you demonize him and protray him as a monster when he’s really a HERO for doing that. You’re probably just blinded by your infantile anti-Christian hatred. And you’re also probably thinking I’m some Christian nutjob but I’m not. I’m not religious although I very much admire most Christians and envy their faith. I’m sick of seeing Christians and other religious minorities like Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc, getting abused by barbaric islamists. So forgive me when I don’t lose any sleep at night when Blackwater returns these islamist jihadists/terrorists to room temperatue. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t support the intentional killing of civilians. But I do think we should give them a pass if they smuggle in some fancy weapons and accidentally kill civilians. Try to think about the situations they face from their point of view. For all you know they simply smuggled in these hallow point bullets to make sure the terrorists – who mutilated and burned their comrades bodies – die so they can’t come back and shoot at them another day. The 5.56 round of the M16 sucks horribly as a man stopper. A lot of times you can shoot up a terrorist only for him to run away, get bandaged up and come back to the fight. The same thing can happen with the larger 7.76 round of the AK47. Therefore they needed a bullet that increases lethality. So what? Give them a break. But if Price did order the killing of these people back home, or civilians in Iraq, then yes he’s crossed the line and deserves punishment. But not for petty rule breaking. We need guys like this. They’re incredible soldiers and extremely competent at what they do.
Hey Moho what happened to “innocent until proven guilty”? Were you a witness, did you actually see these alleged crimes committed with your own eyes? If not why don’t you wait until some actual evidence is produced rather than some very suspect depositions before you go sharpening your sword for the beheading?
Hey Blackwater here’s a little support.
2009 – August 05: An angry mob attacked the house of an elderly woman in District Sanghar, Sindh, accusing her of desecrating the Holy Quran. A case has not yet been registered but the District Bar Association assured the mob that if the woman – identified as Akhtari Malkani – is found guilty, she will be charged under the Blasphemy Law.
2009 – August 01: Seven people were burnt alive and 18 others injured in Gojra, District Toba Tek Singh in Punjab after fresh violence erupted in the town over the alleged desecration of the Holy Quran three days ago. More than 50 houses were set on fire.
2009 – July 31: A mob burnt 75 houses of members of the Christian community over the alleged desecration of the Holy Quran in the village Azafi Abadi at Gojra-Faisalabad Road. Seventy-five houses and two churches were burnt by the residents of a neighbouring village.
2009 – February: Five Ahmadis in Punjab’s Layyah district were arrested on charges of writing blasphemous remarks in the toilets of Kot Sultan’s Gulzar-e-Madina mosque. No evidence or witness was presented. They were just detained on a ‘presumption of guilt,’ stated the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan.
2009 – January 28: The Punjab police arrested a labourer and four students for blasphemy, all of whom were Ahmadis. They were accused of writing the name of Prophet Mohammed on the wall of a toilet in a Sunni mosque. Investigations into the case revealed that the accusation was baseless.
2008 – May: The Punjab police jailed Robin Sardar, a Christian physician, upon an accusation of blasphemy from a Muslim street-vendor who wanted to set up his shop in front of Sardar’s clinic.
2008 – April 08: Jagdesh Kumar, a 27 year old Hindu worker, was beaten to death by fellow Muslim workers in his factory in Karachi on the charge of blasphemy. The incident took place in the presence of policemen. Some reports suggested that the victim was in love with a Muslim girl that angered the Muslim workers, who decided to teach him a lesson.
2008 – March 06: An elderly man, Altaf Hussain, was arrested for desecrating the Holy Quran in Kabir wala Town of Khanewal District in Punjab. The spokesman for the Ahmadiya community countered that the charges against the 80-year-old were false.
2007 – October 28: The police arrested Muhammad Imran of Faisalabad for allegedly setting the Holy Quran on fire. He was kept in a torture cell for three days and later in solitary confinement without anyone attending to his injuries. He was released in April 2009.
2007 – May 17: The nursing school at Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences in Islamabad was shut down and seven Christian staff members suspended after female students of Jamia Hafsa protested over allegations that blasphemy had been committed at the school. Rumours spread that verses from the Quran posted on a wall had been defaced. School authorities denied all such claims.
2007 – April 13: Sattar Masih, a 29-year-old worker at a water pumping station in Kotri city of Sindh, was allegedly attacked by Muslim extremists for uttering blasphemous remarks. An imam of a local mosque, Maulvi Umer, announced some written papers against Prophet Mohammad were found outside the mosque authored by Sattar. Muslim worshipers attacked Masih’s house and tried to kill him but the police arrived before that could happen. Masih was later arrested. Later, in January 2009, the accusation was declared baseless.
2007 – April 01: A case against Salamat Masih, 45, and four other Christians was filed for the desecration of Islamic posters and stickers containing the name of Allah, Prophet Mohammad and other Islamic verses in the Toba Tek Singh (Punjab) police station. The SHO allegedly converted the report into an FIR within 20 minutes without initiating any investigation. Subsequently, 80 young Muslims from the neighbourhood ransacked the houses of Christians in the colony.
2007 – January 22: Martha Bibi, a Christian woman from Kot Nanak Singh, District Kasur, was accused of making derogatory remarks about Prophet Muhammad and defaming his sacred name.
2006 – September 21: Shahid Masih, 17, was jailed on suspicion of ripping book pages containing Quranic verses in Punjab.
2006 – June 03: Christians and Muslims in Pakistan condemned Dan Brown’s novel ‘The Da Vinci Code’ as blasphemous. The then Minister for Culture, Ghulam Jamal, banned the promotion of the movie.
2006 – May 24: A Christian, Qamar David, was arrested from Karachi for allegedly sending blasphemous messages to some Muslims via cell phone as revenge for attacks against churches by Muslims in Sukkur, Sindh, and Sangla Hill, Punjab, earlier that year.
2005 – December 23: Five members of the Mehdi Foundation International were arrested in Wapda Town, Lahore, for putting up posters of their leader Riaz Gohar Shahi showing him as ‘Imam Mehdi’. The Anti-Terrorism Court sentenced each to five years of imprisonment under 295-A of PPC. Their prisoners’ records posted outside the cell falsely indicate that they had been sentenced under 295-C – the Blasphemy Law.
2005 – November 12: After receiving frequent death threats, Parvez Aslam Chaudhry, a lawyer who defended many accused for blasphemy, was allegedly charged with flinging a burning matchstick on an Islamic school in the Sangla Hill stadium in Punjab which caught fire. Chaudhry was also physically assaulted outside Lahore High Court.
2005 – August 11: Judge Arshad Noor Khan of the Anti-Terrorist Court found Younus Shaikh guilty of defiling a copy of the Quran, and propagating religious hatred among society. Shaikh was convicted because he wrote a book ‘Shaitan Maulvi’ (Satanic Cleric) in which he mentioned stoning to death as a punishment for adultery was not mentioned in the Quran. The judge imposed a fine of Rs100, 000 rupees and sentenced him to lifetime imprisonment.
2003 – November 20: Anwar Masih, a Christian labourer and resident of Shahdara, Lahore, was charged for insulting the Prophet in front of his neighbour. Masih had converted from Islam to Christianity. He was acquitted by the Lahore High Court in December 2004. Later, in August 2007, he lost his job in a factory when his employer was threatened for employing a ‘blasphemer’. Masih went into hiding.
2003 – July 09: A journalist in NWFP was sentenced to life imprisonment for blasphemy. Munawar Mohsin, a sub-editor at the Frontier Post newspaper, was convicted of publishing a blasphemous letter in the editorial section that led to violent protests across the country.
2002 – July 18: Additional sessions judge in Lahore imposed death penalty and a fine of Rs500,000 on Anwar Kenneth, a former officer of the Fisheries Department, in a blasphemy case registered with the Gawalmandi police. He was arrested on June 15, 2001, while distributing a pamphlet (Gospel of Jesus).
2002 – June 11: A 55-year-old Muslim cleric, Mohammed Yousaf Ali, convicted of blasphemy was shot dead in the Lahore prison. The murderer was another prisoner, Tariq Mota, a member the banned Sunni militant group Sipah-e-Sahaba. Ali had been sentenced to death for blasphemy on August 5, 2000, in a case filed by another militant group who disapproved of his religious views. Ali had been vocal in condemning religious extremism.
2000 – October: Pakistani authorities charged Younus Shaikh, a teacher at a medical college in Islamabad, with blasphemy on account of remarks that students claimed he made during a lecture. The students alleged that Shaikh had said Prophet Mohammed’s parents were non-Muslims because they died before Islam existed. A judge ordered that Shaikh pay a fine of Rs100,000, and be hanged. In November 2003 he was acquitted after which he left Pakistan.
1998 – May 6: Roman Catholic Bishop John Joseph of Pakistan shot himself in the Sahiwal courthouse to highlight the case of Ayub Masih, a Christian sentenced to death for allegedly uttering blasphemous remarks against Prophet Muhammad. The death of the 66-year-old led to protests by Christians. Subsequently, the Lahore High Court ordered a stay of execution for Masih. His fate remains undecided.
1997 – October 19: Judge Arif Iqbal Hussain Bhatti was assassinated in his Lahore office after acquitting two people who were accused of blasphemy.
1996 – October 14: Ayub Masih, a Pakistani Christian bricklayer, was arrested for violation of Section 295-C. The complaint was filed by Masih’s neighbour who claimed that Masih had invited them to accept Christianity and recommended that they read Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses. He later made legal history when his appeal against the death penalty was turned down by the High Court in 2002.
1995 – July: Catherine Shaheen, a teacher in Lahore, Punjab, was denied her salary on grounds of blasphemy. Since then she has been in hiding because of threats against her life made by some fundamentalists.
1993 – November 21: Riaz Ahmad, his son, and two nephews from the Ahmadi community were arrested in Mianwali District for their blasphemous remarks. The rivalry over Ahmad’s position as village headman was the real motivation for the complaint against him. The Sessions Court rejected the bail applications of the accused, however, the Supreme Court granted him bail in December 1997.
1993 – May: Twelve-year-old Salamat Masih, Manzoor Masih, 37, and Rehmat Masih, 42, were charged with writing derogatory remarks against Prophet Mohammed on the wall of a mosque in Ratta Dhotran village of district Gujranwala – where they lived. All the three were in fact illiterate and did not know how to write.
1993 – February: Anwar Masih, a Christian from Samundri in Punjab, went to jail upon a Muslim shopkeeper’s allegation that, during an argument over money, Masih had insulted the Prophet Mohammed.
1992 – November: Gul Masih, a Christian, was sentenced to death after having remarked to his Muslim neighbour in Punjab that he had read that ‘Prophet Mohammed had 11 wives, including a minor.’
1992 – Bantu Masih, 80, and Mukhtar Masih, 50, were arrested on the allegation of committing blasphemy. Both died in the Lahore police station. Bantu Masih was stabbed eight times by a fundamentalist in the presence of policemen. He later succumbed to his injuries, whereas Mukhtar Masih was tortured to death in police custody.
1992 – January 06: Christian teacher Naimat Ahmar, 43, was butchered by a young member of a militant religious group, Farooq Ahmad, on the office premises of the District Education Officer in Faisalabad while on duty. Ahmad killed him because the deceased had reportedly used highly insulting remarks against Islam and Prophet Mohammed and by killing a blasphemer he had won his way into heaven. No case of blasphemy was registered against him nor was he tried by any court. Ahmar left behind a widow and four children.
1991 – December 10: Gul Masih of Faisalabad was charged for using sacrilegious language about the Prophet and his wives. The complainant, Sajjad Hussain, had a quarrel with him over repair of a street water tap. Masih was sentenced to death by the Sessions Court, Sargodha, on November 02, 1992. Years later he was acquitted but continued to receive death threats. He is now in Germany on asylum.
1991 – October 08: Chand Barkat, 28, a bangle stall holder in Karachi, was charged with blasphemy by another bangle vendor, Arif Hussain, because of professional jealousy. Hussain decided to teach Barkat a lesson by accusing him of using derogatory language against Prophet Mohammed and his mother. Barkat was charged under section 295-C of PPC, however, he was acquitted by the Sessions Court for want of evidence.
1990 – December 07: Tahir Iqbal, a Christian convert from Islam and resident of Lahore, was accused of abusing Prophet Mohammad at the time of Azaan and imparting anti-Islamic education to children during tuitions. The sessions judge in July 1991 turned down his bail application after he learnt that Iqbal had converted to Christianity, which, he stated, was a cognisable offence. Later on July 21, 1992, before Iqbal’s defence lawyer could appear in court, he was poisoned in police custody.
to 45/46 Blackwater
How do I begin? As I understand it, you indorse and applaud Blackwater killing any Muslim they encounter. At that point, how are we any different than the Islamic extremists? In their view, it is perfectly acceptable to kill any infadel (Christian, Jew, ANY non-muslim) … just the same as you advocate killing ANY Muslim. Think about that a little.
The contract they were working under prohibits specific weapons … including the M249 SAW, grenades and CS grenades. Blackwater is documented as having employed all 3 … including CS used against US Army troops. Look it up.
Blackwater is not now nor have they ever been “guinea pigs” for testing ANY military equipment. They are civilian’s hired for a Dept. of State contract … not US Army.
Do SOME Muslims commit unspeakable acts? Yes! Do ALL Muslims commit these acts? No! I’ve worked in the Middle East, so I can speak with confidense here … most of the people I met and worked with were no different that you and me. They were just trying to make ends meet. Different beliefs, but common goals & aspirations.
You need to read up some more on weapons. The 5.56 was designed as a man stopper … read about hydrostatic shock. The AK47 fires a 7.62X39 round … not a 7.76.
CS Grenades…
Potential Targets/Applications: Individual Targets, Suspect Apprehension, Prison/Civil Rioters
Primary Users: Law Enforcement, Military, and Corrections
Incapacitation Mechanism/Technology: The Tri-Action, CS Grenade is designed to cause disorientation through tearing and burning sensation in the eyes, violent coughing, and extreme burning sensation to exposed surfaces of the skin surfaces. This allows concealment for an officer to retreat or move forward in an operation where some type of concealment is needed.
Now why would you prohibit the use of this “weapon”? I would think it would provide a vital function in getting civilian contractors out of harms way. Its non-lethal as well.
“Different beliefs, but common goals & aspirations.”
You mean like rioting, stoning, honor killings, and celebrating the deaths of 3000 people by dancing in the streets? I too have been to the Middle East, and basically you’re correct to some degree that not all Muslims are “bad guys”, however there are some very vast differences that lurk beneath the surface. The one you acknowledge but don’t seem to actually understand and take to heart is “In their view, it is perfectly acceptable to kill any infidel”. This is Muslim scripture, not an interpretation.
Take Sura 9:5 of the Quran.
“Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat, and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
Tell me this Nick, would you fear for your life walking in to Christian town and criticizing Jesus? Likely not, you might get an earful and at the very worse an ass kicking if they are the more rabid type Christians. How about a Jewish community and criticizing Moses or David?
Would you feel equally safe criticizing Mohammed in a Muslim nation? Those “people I met and worked with were no different that you and me” might suddenly be stoning you to death or beheading you.
I won’t argue use/effectiveness of CS. I have not advocated banning it…DoS specifically prohibited its use in the contract. Ask them why.
I get your point on the culture…it is radically different than ours. I probably should have said that at an individual level, they are like us…as a society, completely different, and honestly they’re not likely to change anytime soon. However, I don’t believe in the idea the “the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim”. Are we as a society or you personally ready to embrace the same methods that radical Islam uses? “Kill them all and let God sort them out”?
As far as quotes:
1 Samuel
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and [donkey].
Deuteronomy 7:1-2
“When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations…then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy.”
Deuteronomy 20:16
“…do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the Lord your God has commanded you…”
I am not condeming Christianity, just pointing out that you can find similar thoughts in the Bible.
@49 Nick
I never said anything like that. I specifically said that I’m opposed to the intentional killing of civilians (exception full scale war a la WWII). And if Price did in fact order the intentional killing of civilians in Iraq then he should be punished by the law. However I highly doubt he ever ordered such a thing. More than likely this “John Doe #2″ is taking every conspriracy theory he’s ever heard about Blackwater and embelishing upon them.
I also clearly said I support the brutal and unmerciful killing of islamists/terrorists/jihadists. They deserve to die. And I make no apologies for celebrating the news of their “passings”.
And no, I don’t care if Blackwater used machine guns or grenade launchers or bullets they weren’t supposed to oficially use. It’s a trivial gripe and just an attempt to tarnish their good name for dubious political and ideological reasons. What I care about is them having the best weaponary and arsenal in the world to do their jobs safely and successfully while instilling fear into the enemy.
I know many muslims as well. I live in Northern Virginia which has a huge concentration of muslim immigrants. And while it may sound cliche, yes, I do have muslim friends and even dated a few. So you don’t need to lecture me on tolerating muslims.
And you’re totally wrong about the M18 being a good man stopper.
Get off their back ingrate.
52 Blackwater
Please do some reading on Blackwater and their history in Iraq. There have been numerous incidents where they engaged bystanders. One of their armorers shot an Iraqi guard while he was drunk.
Do you understand that “John Doe #2″ worked for Blackwater?
So in your eyes, a woman being driven to the doctor by her son is a “islamists/terrorists/jihadists”? I guess you have a much broader definition than I do.
Whether you feel it was OK for Blackwater to use any weapons they felt like using or not, the fact remains that the Department of State specifically said in the contract that those weapons would not be used.
You need to read up on weapons. The M18 is one of 2 things: a tank destroyer from WW2 or a 57mm recoiless rifle. Maybe you meant “M4″. Also, the M249′s that Blackwater was not supposed to carry fires the same round that the M4 fires.
But you knew that.
“Do you understand that “John Doe #2″ worked for Blackwater?”
Do you understand that there’s no way we can know that, given his anonymity?
There’s a reason there’s a Constitutional right to confront your accuser in court.
54 Rob
Read his statement…it’s available on line.
To 43. Moho
blah blah blah. They are former US soldiers… o wait you knew that and thats why you want them hanged because you can’t take the PR hit for hanging soldiers still in uniform.
To 42. Nick
Yes their civs and yes they have different rules… their rules are in fact STRICTER in almost every respect then the US military rules. Maybe you should do some research on those rules before telling someone who knows something about them about them.
As for questionable… heh not really sure they disobey army order but so do soldiers all the time. Nothing they’ve is outside the ROE and is perfectly legal. The thing I find funny about ppl like you is US soldiers and blackwater have stricter rules on who they’re allowed to shoot at then police in the US do. A police officer could shoot to kill many many more ppl then the US army or blackwater ever could under the rules that they have set down.
“How do I begin? As I understand it, you indorse and applaud Blackwater killing any Muslim they encounter. At that point, how are we any different than the Islamic extremists? In their view, it is perfectly acceptable to kill any infadel (Christian, Jew, ANY non-muslim) … just the same as you advocate killing ANY Muslim. Think about that a little.”
Complete and utter ignorance like this just shows that your opinions are nothing but whitewash and brainwash BS feed to you from whatever propaganda source you suckle up to.
44. Paul in MI
You understand blackwater falls under the UCMJ as well… you also understand that this is a joke trial which means anyone could be up there…. o wait no you don’t.
why has PJM removed the remember button…
To 56. Anonymous
Actually, I do understand that they are supposed to work under much stricter rules. I’ve read the contract.
So are you saying that BW has not commited any questionable actions? I guess a drunk BW employee shooting an Iraqi guard is OK…or a BW sniper shooting 3 Iraqi guards is OK? Or maybe pulling their weapons on US Army soldiers at a guard post? The list goes on.
How in the world did you get that I endorse BW’s killing any Muslim? That is 100% backwards from what I think. I have argued again & again that when they kill just for the sake of killing, it makes them, and by association, us no better than Muslim extremests.
I’m done with this…arguing with you is like trying to convince a wall that it is actually a door…and then trying to walk through the door.
To 58. Nick
Questionable and illegal are 2 very different things. Shooting iraq guards/police/military/anything iraqi if you knew anything about iraq is 1. not uncommon. 2. Not illegal
Your argument is very clear you hate blackwater because they are US soldiers and you believe that US soldiers are all guilty of “they kill just for the sake of killing, it makes them, and by association, us no better than Muslim extremests.”
Stop trying to go after blackwater for crimes that you think every US soldier commits everyday in iraqi man up and at least admit you just hate US soldiers.
To 59 robotech master
So it’s perfectly OK for a drunk to shoot the Iraqi VP’s guard? But wait, by contract BW personnel aren’t supposed to drink…and the drunk wasn’t supposed to be carrying…and he tried to make everyone think he had been defending himself, even though no other weapons were fired.
Blackwater personnel ARE NOT SOLDIERS. They are hired civilian guards. Granted, many are FORMER soldiers, but when they go to work for BW, they are civilians. I do not believe US soldiers are guilty.
I have never, and will never say ANYTHING negative about US soldiers. I was a soldier. Both my brothers are combat veterans. My son is a combat veteran. My daughter is in the process of joining.
Have you ever done anything besides sit in your mother’s basement and dream of having a life?
#59 RM
A summary of your arguments… and the facts.
1)”their is NO proof that blackwater even killed these ppl and theirs VERY VERY LITTLE proof that these ppl even died”
It’s a fact that Blackwater killed 14 people that day. They don’t even dispute it, their argument is that were responding to an attack and that their response was proportional to the threat.
2)”the FBI came out and said “we got nothing””
The FBI said ballistics were inconclusive. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-04-01-blackwater-report_N.htm?csp=15
That’s not the same thing. They have enough for a 35 count indictment that a federal judge has allowed to go forward.
3)”the statements of both blackwater AND a 3rd party who have no reason to lie”
If they did it (and it is an “if”, I reserve no judgement until after the trial) then they have nothing but reasons to lie. The only way you could conclude this is if you thought it was a foregone conclusion that they didn’t do it.
4)”The AG filed charges against everyone in blackwater even the drives ”
I’m assuming that that’s supposed to be drivers and if so then it’s false. There are 5 people named in the indictment, plus one more who already pleaded guilty. 6 men doesn’t make a convoy.
5)”their rules are in fact STRICTER in almost every respect then the US military rules”
Since you didn’t give any details I can’t find anything to support or contradict this idea. The facts contradict it though. It doesn’t really matter how strict their ROE is if they don’t follow it.
6)”US soldiers and blackwater have stricter rules on who they’re allowed to shoot at then police in the US do”
Incorrect. Soldiers in combat are allowed to defend themselves without trying to arrest anyone first. They can also use suppressive fire, explosives, and shoot first under certain conditions. This is as it should be.
7)”A police officer could shoot to kill many many more ppl then the US army or blackwater ever could”
Incorrect. Show me a police officer who’s been indicted on 35 counts of manslaughter and still has a job.
8)”You understand blackwater falls under the UCMJ as well”
Only employees of the DOD fall under the UCMJ. Blackwater contracts primarily with the State Dept.
9) “Shooting iraq guards/police/military/anything iraqi if you knew anything about iraq is 1. not uncommon. 2. Not illegal”
You’re insane. It is illegal, it should be more uncommon. You can tell it’s illegal because there are a bunch of Blackwater guys on trial for doing it right now. Accidents happen but the whole country isn’t a free-fire zone.
Literally every “fact” you’ve claimed over the last 4 days is actually false. Are you trolling or just incredibly ignorant?
To 60. Nick
Cut the BS. Save your crap for someone that will really believe.
To 61. Paul in MI
If we go by your facts then they didn’t do anything wrong since were using official reports.
1. nice to see you get to pick and choose what facts you want.
2. The FBI didn’t file those charges and they were filed long before the FBI even started testing.
3. Yes the DOD ppl who were part of the convoy all reported that they WERE ATTACKED. So unless your saying the DOD is lying about the attacks as well.
4. BS they had to drop alot of the charges because they didn’t go anywhere.
5. Umm they did follow the ROE. Being the fact you probably don’t even know what ROE is you probably shouldn’t even talk about it.
6. Once again you have zero understanding of ROE or EoF.
7. Lol see 5 and 6.
8. I really suggest you learn something about how blackwater works…
9. once again you know nothing about iraq.
Since you noobs think you know something about anything lets see if you can even get this right. Below is a convoy video from blackwater. Point out every major crimes(simply state the time stamp). I’m only looking for major crimes but if you find a minor crime(such as 2 iraqi’s double parking) I’ll count that as a major crime. If you can even get it 50% right I’ll at least consider you not complete trolls who’s only goal is to throw US soldiers in jail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZHqugy_QBw
#62
So what do you do in the Army anonymous? I was in Iraq from ’04 to ’05 with 10th Mountain Div.
I’m tired of arguing with you, I’m not out to prosecute soldiers or throw these guys in jail without a trial. Based on what I’ve seen it certainly looks like a crime was committed. If not then they’ll be acquitted at trial.
As far as the video goes I’m not going to try and spot whatever you’re talking about. I’m watching it at work with the sound off but it looks like someone lit up that car at the 1:15 mark causing it to veer off into the orange and white taxi in the next lane. Given the speed that guy was approaching at I’d probably have done the same thing.
To Paul & Anon.
Paul, thank you for your service…glad you came home safe.
Anon, I really don’t care if you believe me or not…I am proud of my family’s service.
You need to do more research before you defend BW. For instance, you said “Yes the DOD ppl who were part of the convoy all reported that they WERE ATTACKED.” This was not a DoD convoy, it was a DoS convoy. Different contracts, different personnel.
And finally, once again, you seem to think that employees of Blackwater are soldiers. They are civilian contractors who MAY be prior service…a number of BW personnel come from police and security backgrounds.
Bye now, I’m through with this.
To 63. Paul in MI
11b1p I did ECP, patrols, IED clearing along with some other stuff which was classed as the most dangerous mission in iraq.
I have worked in Baghdad, mosul, kirkuk, irbil, as sulaymaniyah, dihok just to name a few of the major cities I’ve been in and worked in.
“Based on what I’ve seen it certainly looks like a crime was committed. ”
Based on what? A handful of statements from questionable sources. Once again their is no evidence other then “witness” statements which are a joke to prove anything. Once again their is as much proof that meteors fell from the sky and killed these ppl as their is blackwater did it. I would suggest you read up on the case.
Paul in MI says: “I’m no fan of Blackwater, I think their whole business model revolves around poaching qualified people from the military and then renting them back to the government that trained them at a much higher rate.”
Paul…don’t you think these highly trained spec ops guys deserve the opportunity to market their skills in the “marketplace” after fullfilling their military obligation?? Or, maybe they should remain “slaved” to DOD until they reach age 65 or more?? Or maybe, even better, the “house of fools” otherwise known as the US Congress should enact legislation barring any spec ops guy leaving active military service from hiring on as a security contractor ANYWHERE??
#65 RM
I was 11b6b, we stayed in northern Baghdad the whole time I was deployed, Khadhamiyah if that means anything to you. I was in the scout platoon so we got tasked with counter IED operations along the MSRs.
It seems like everyone involved agrees that there were excessive civilian casualties. Reports differ but none of the official findings show that they were under heavy attack. I’ve read Blackwaters report of the incident and it reads like a Medal of Honor citation, it’s amazing any of those guys got out alive if that story is true. To me it looks like some of these guys overreacted to a minor incident by treating it like it was Omaha beach. My feeling is that it’ll turn out to have been one or perhaps two guys who did most of the indiscriminate shooting.
Long term though I think we need to accept that guarding and escorting US personnel in war zones is a military function. The DOD should have that capability organically without having to let the other government agencies hire corporations that are basically just hiring good soldiers away from the military. Maybe adding a company of infantry or MPs to each brigade combat team and establishing a training program for training them in personal security would work. It would be more expensive in the beginning but these kind of wars aren’t going away any time soon and the State Dept. spent $1 billion on Blackwater last year, that kind of money buys you a lot of joes.
#66 Joe
You built up quite a straw man to knock down there. What I’m saying is that the US government (DoD) spends a lot of money training these guys who then get out and get hired by Blackwater and rented back to the US government (State). It’s pretty predatory, I have a friend in SF and he had advance job offers from these companies the day he was awarded his tab.
Obviously I’m not advocating stopping anyone from getting out or signing on with Blackwater. Everyone should be able to work for whomever they please. But if State had to get it’s security in Iraq from DoD by budget transfer instead of hiring their own contractors then the market would dry up. That way we, the taxpayers wouldn’t be paying to encourage guys to get out.
Also it’s not just secial operations types who are getting hired by contractors these days. The market grew too quickly to keep it filled up with former SEALs and SF so there are a lot of Marine and Army infantry types out there too.