Comments on: One Stimulus That Makes Sense http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/ Thu, 16 Feb 2012 05:01:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: class clown http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-200264 class clown Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:04:12 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-200264 In his book "New Glory", Ralph Peters is highly critical of the F-22 program, making the point that it is now so expensive that the Air Force is afraid to actually use it (and risk it) for its intended purpose. I can't agree with you on this one, Ms. Rubin, he was more persuasive. In his book “New Glory”, Ralph Peters is highly critical of the F-22 program, making the point that it is now so expensive that the Air Force is afraid to actually use it (and risk it) for its intended purpose. I can’t agree with you on this one, Ms. Rubin, he was more persuasive.

]]> By: Oscar the Grump http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-200104 Oscar the Grump Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:16:34 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-200104 Thanks for your input. I'll have somebody help me with the French. Thanks for your input. I’ll have somebody help me with the French.

]]> By: kochevnik http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-199831 kochevnik Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:58:47 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-199831 Increasingly broke Americans won't be able to afford their war toys or expand their global homogeneity now that others are onto their bait-and-switch banking fraud. Once US fails as reserve currency Americans will be begging Mexicans for assistance. Increasingly broke Americans won’t be able to afford their war toys or expand their global homogeneity now that others are onto their bait-and-switch banking fraud. Once US fails as reserve currency Americans will be begging Mexicans for assistance.

]]> By: SAF http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-199560 SAF Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:22:58 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-199560 Obama will do what he has always done, make the non decision. Obama will do what he has always done, make the non decision.

]]> By: Marie Claude http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-199537 Marie Claude Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:34:31 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-199537 Oscar, my post has been swallowed, um, I think because of the too many links so you can read it here if it doesn't appears on board later on : http://bokedou-an-hanv.blogspot.com/ Oscar, my post has been swallowed, um, I think because of the too many links
so you can read it here if it doesn’t appears on board later on :

http://bokedou-an-hanv.blogspot.com/

]]> By: Marie Claude http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-199535 Marie Claude Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:29:06 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-199535 Oscar, thanks for updating my link :lol: a french site shows the details of the F22 : http://www.aviation-fr.info/guide/f22.php so if Israel is buying some F22, seems that is in forecasting an attack on Iran ??? http://www.leblogdrzz.over-blog.com/article-20263088.html and she also is very interested by the F35 http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/israel-plans-to-buy-over-100-f35s-02381/ see ya, the Chineses have copied the F22 (on an algerian forum): http://forcesdz.forumactif.com/armes-et-autres-materiels-f5/j-xx-chinese-fighter-t1130.htm and the russian Su35, in collaboration with India (I believe) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA and she prefers the F35 : http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20090205_lockheed.html I don't think that the Europeans would want to buy the F22, first,cause of its costs (I think, x 5 to x 7 times higher than the Rafale), second it's not appropriated for the expected conflicts : local guerillas, ie Balkans... or urban guerillas with our inner enemi : muslim integrism, or may-be next, chinese, as it is said that the Chineses will become the most important immigrant labour force... also the UK, Germany, France makes their own fighters ; BTW, the Rafale had a few sale successes last year in Brazil, United Emirates, Lybia, Saudi Arabia had discussions for buying it, but due to the lower oil prices they postponed the decision. http://www.letelegramme.com/une/exportations-de-defense-bon-cru-2008-pour-la-france-30-01-2009-228512.php So may-be the F22 will look like a deluxe product, like our former "concorde", if your administration can affort the charges, though it doesn't seem so !!! Oscar, thanks for updating my link :lol:

a french site shows the details of the F22 :

http://www.aviation-fr.info/guide/f22.php

so if Israel is buying some F22, seems that is in forecasting an attack on Iran ???

http://www.leblogdrzz.over-blog.com/article-20263088.html

and she also is very interested by the F35

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/israel-plans-to-buy-over-100-f35s-02381/

see ya, the Chineses have copied the F22 (on an algerian forum):

http://forcesdz.forumactif.com/armes-et-autres-materiels-f5/j-xx-chinese-fighter-t1130.htm

and the russian Su35, in collaboration with India (I believe) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA

and she prefers the F35 :

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20090205_lockheed.html

I don’t think that the Europeans would want to buy the F22, first,cause of its costs (I think, x 5 to x 7 times higher than the Rafale), second it’s not appropriated for the expected conflicts : local guerillas, ie Balkans… or urban guerillas with our inner enemi : muslim integrism, or may-be next, chinese, as it is said that the Chineses will become the most important immigrant labour force… also the UK, Germany, France makes their own fighters ; BTW, the Rafale had a few sale successes last year in Brazil, United Emirates, Lybia, Saudi Arabia had discussions for buying it, but due to the lower oil prices they postponed the decision.

http://www.letelegramme.com/une/exportations-de-defense-bon-cru-2008-pour-la-france-30-01-2009-228512.php

So may-be the F22 will look like a deluxe product, like our former “concorde”, if your administration can affort the charges, though it doesn’t seem so !!!

]]> By: Oscar the Grump http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-199414 Oscar the Grump Mon, 09 Feb 2009 04:23:04 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-199414 Marie Claude, The article you cite is dated 1999. Things have changed a lot since it was written. Russia is no longer the US's buddy. It is selling its Mig29s to anyone who wants to buy them. India is a good example. India bought a bunch of them and they added Israeli technology to the planes. As a result, when the Indian planes and the US Airforce F15 were in mock combat, the Russian Migs outperformed the US planes. Russia has a whole stable full of newer planes to trot out and so does China. Even though a war with China or Russia is very unlikely, a war with somebody using their weapons or weapons systems is very likely. Russia will sell anything to anybody and so will China. The only plane they really respect is the F22 Raptor. They are doing their best to copy it. If I were a European, I would want the US to manufacture and many of these planes as possible. It just makes sense. Marie Claude,
The article you cite is dated 1999. Things have changed a lot since it was written. Russia is no longer the US’s buddy. It is selling its Mig29s to anyone who wants to buy them. India is a good example. India bought a bunch of them and they added Israeli technology to the planes. As a result, when the Indian planes and the US Airforce F15 were in mock combat, the Russian Migs outperformed the US planes. Russia has a whole stable full of newer planes to trot out and so does China. Even though a war with China or Russia is very unlikely, a war with somebody using their weapons or weapons systems is very likely. Russia will sell anything to anybody and so will China.

The only plane they really respect is the F22 Raptor. They are doing their best to copy it. If I were a European, I would want the US to manufacture and many of these planes as possible. It just makes sense.

]]> By: Cybergeezer http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-199211 Cybergeezer Sun, 08 Feb 2009 22:06:53 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-199211 The Stimulus Bill, as proposed, is NOT RECOMMENDED by the Congressional Budget Office, whose duty it is to study effects of Congressional legislation. And this group is not made up of a political group. This Bill should not be passed until it can get approval from the CBO. The Stimulus Bill, as proposed, is NOT RECOMMENDED by the Congressional Budget Office, whose duty it is to study effects of Congressional legislation. And this group is not made up of a political group.
This Bill should not be passed until it can get approval from the CBO.

]]> By: Marie Claude http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-199166 Marie Claude Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:40:27 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-199166 <i>For attacking targets on the ground, larger bombers with greater payloads are more efficient than smaller fighter aircraft. Furthermore, large land bases in close proximity to any conflict -- which are used by fighter aircraft like the F-22 -- are becoming vulnerable to attacks from enemy ballistic missiles. Bombers have a much longer range than tactical fighters and can operate from bases in theater farther from the conflict or even from bases in the United States.</i> ... <i>an upgraded F-15E aircraft fits better with U.S. needs in a post-Cold War world than does the exorbitantly priced F-22. The money saved by terminating this $70 billion prehistoric bird of prey could be put to better uses</i> http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5027 . Il est par ailleurs accusé par ses détracteurs de pas être adapté aux conflits asymétriques dans lesquels les États-Unis sont engagés (guerre d'Afghanistan, guerre d'Irak) et qui nécessitent des appareils adaptés au soutien aérien et non de purs appareils de supériorité aérienne typiques de la Guerre froide. De son côté l'US Air force défend sa commande initiale de 381 F-22 s'appuyant sur la menace que représente la Chine et l'acquisition de chasseurs modernes, notamment russes, par de nombreux états <i> The F22 is also accused by his critics of not being suited to asymmetrical conflicts where the United States is committed (war in Afghanistan, Iraq war), which require devices adapted to air support and not pure superiority aircraft typical of the Cold War. For its part the U.S. Air Force defends its initial order for 381 F-22 based on the threat posed by China and the acquisition of modern hunters, including Russian, for many states </i> wasn't the Raptor ment for a "cold war" ? For attacking targets on the ground, larger bombers with greater payloads are more efficient than smaller fighter aircraft. Furthermore, large land bases in close proximity to any conflict — which are used by fighter aircraft like the F-22 — are becoming vulnerable to attacks from enemy ballistic missiles. Bombers have a much longer range than tactical fighters and can operate from bases in theater farther from the conflict or even from bases in the United States.

…

an upgraded F-15E aircraft fits better with U.S. needs in a post-Cold War world than does the exorbitantly priced F-22. The money saved by terminating this $70 billion prehistoric bird of prey could be put to better uses

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5027

. Il est par ailleurs accusé par ses détracteurs de pas être adapté aux conflits asymétriques dans lesquels les États-Unis sont engagés (guerre d’Afghanistan, guerre d’Irak) et qui nécessitent des appareils adaptés au soutien aérien et non de purs appareils de supériorité aérienne typiques de la Guerre froide. De son côté l’US Air force défend sa commande initiale de 381 F-22 s’appuyant sur la menace que représente la Chine et l’acquisition de chasseurs modernes, notamment russes, par de nombreux états

The F22 is also accused by his critics of not being suited to asymmetrical conflicts where the United States is committed (war in Afghanistan, Iraq war), which require devices adapted to air support and not pure superiority aircraft typical of the Cold War. For its part the U.S. Air Force defends its initial order for 381 F-22 based on the threat posed by China and the acquisition of modern hunters, including Russian, for many states

wasn’t the Raptor ment for a “cold war” ?

]]> By: Obamanator http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-f-22-fighter-a-bailout-that-makes-sense/#comment-198910 Obamanator Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:40:43 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=45906#comment-198910 Hey guys. All this bickering over To Raptor or not to Raptor. The simple fact of the matter is the US Air force needs to go back to basics on all these matters. The US is in Dire need of a true dedicated Air Superiority fighter. The last TWO major attacks on US soil could have been foiled by an alert military prepared for a good fight. Air superiority is only achieved with an air superiority fighter. What happens to Major Tom in his trusty F15 when he sees a MiG29 in the rear view and he is slung with tons of ground ordinance? Hopefully he looks further back and sees the f22 his pals in the AWACS have already vectored home. The idea that you will eliminate the pilot from the battle is as old as time and just as foolish. Remember long range missiles eliminating dogfights? Why don't we stop teaching land nav because of GPS? Technologies aids the man, not replaces him. Even George Lucas knows that clones beat drones. Drones are the future, but not of air to air combat. I watched a predator in Balad get lost on the fingers because the operator only sees what is right in front of him on the screen. Where drones would shine is CAS roles. Imagine a battle where the LEG's no longer call in digits and pray for rain, the Combat Controller opens his laptop and takes real time control of the predator wolf packs loitering over his battlefield. Prioritizing targets on the fly cutting out several middle men and opportunities for error. I know this is not a military tech posting, but this is relevant. It is short sighted ill informed thinking that got Obama into government funded housing, and it is uneducated short sighted reactionism that causes recessions to become depressions. Now more than ever we need to take a breath and think about the future. Just like uncle Ronnie brought us out of the quagmire of post Vietnam, a short 4 years from now someone equally worthy will step up and bring us back to the strong and proud America that we have lost. America came out of the first great depression with infrastructure spending. They came out of the hippie recession with massive defense spending. A combination of both at this time is what is needed. Don't rescue the car companies. They will rescue themselves. Americans will always buy their cars. Rescue the bomb makers. Last time I checked I wasn't allowed to buy a JDAM for personal use. Hey guys. All this bickering over To Raptor or not to Raptor. The simple fact of the matter is the US Air force needs to go back to basics on all these matters. The US is in Dire need of a true dedicated Air Superiority fighter. The last TWO major attacks on US soil could have been foiled by an alert military prepared for a good fight. Air superiority is only achieved with an air superiority fighter. What happens to Major Tom in his trusty F15 when he sees a MiG29 in the rear view and he is slung with tons of ground ordinance? Hopefully he looks further back and sees the f22 his pals in the AWACS have already vectored home. The idea that you will eliminate the pilot from the battle is as old as time and just as foolish. Remember long range missiles eliminating dogfights? Why don’t we stop teaching land nav because of GPS? Technologies aids the man, not replaces him. Even George Lucas knows that clones beat drones.

Drones are the future, but not of air to air combat. I watched a predator in Balad get lost on the fingers because the operator only sees what is right in front of him on the screen. Where drones would shine is CAS roles. Imagine a battle where the LEG’s no longer call in digits and pray for rain, the Combat Controller opens his laptop and takes real time control of the predator wolf packs loitering over his battlefield. Prioritizing targets on the fly cutting out several middle men and opportunities for error.

I know this is not a military tech posting, but this is relevant. It is short sighted ill informed thinking that got Obama into government funded housing, and it is uneducated short sighted reactionism that causes recessions to become depressions. Now more than ever we need to take a breath and think about the future. Just like uncle Ronnie brought us out of the quagmire of post Vietnam, a short 4 years from now someone equally worthy will step up and bring us back to the strong and proud America that we have lost. America came out of the first great depression with infrastructure spending. They came out of the hippie recession with massive defense spending. A combination of both at this time is what is needed. Don’t rescue the car companies. They will rescue themselves. Americans will always buy their cars. Rescue the bomb makers. Last time I checked I wasn’t allowed to buy a JDAM for personal use.

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