The European Media Reacts to Death of Osama Bin Laden
Leading newspapers and magazines in Europe have provided saturation coverage of the death of Osama bin Laden. Although initial media reaction in Europe was overwhelmingly supportive of the American commando operation, media outlets in many countries quickly regained their composure and anti-Americanism has now returned as their default position.
European media, almost without exception, have focused particular attention on the news that bin Laden was not armed when he was killed by American operatives. Many Europeans have criticized what they describe as America’s “wild-west” concept of justice. Dozens of European newspapers have published lengthy philosophical essays by sundry intellectuals that examine the morality of bin Laden’s killing. Many argue that bin Laden should have been tried in a court of law.
In a reflection of the acute sense of moral superiority that is so common in contemporary Europe, secular analysts who are normally highly disdainful of Judeo-Christian moral codes have gone so far as to accuse the United States of violating the Fifth Commandment, without a hint of irony.
In Germany, the media reaction has been especially noteworthy for its near unanimous criticism of the American raid. Many German analysts say the American action was illegal under international law and some Germans have called for an international commission (similar to the Goldstone Commission in Israel) to investigate the U.S. foray into Pakistan. Unanswered remains the question of whether European activists will accuse U.S. President Barack Obama of war crimes and seek a warrant for his arrest as they did for George W. Bush, who recently was forced to cancel a trip to Switzerland.
In Britain, the left-wing Guardian newspaper ran a story titled “Osama bin Laden: U.S. Changes Account of al-Qaida Leader’s Death” which says:
The U.S. has backed away from its initial account of the killing of Osama bin Laden, which claimed that the al-Qaeda leader was carrying a weapon and fired at U.S. troops before he was shot dead.
* * *
[Q]uestions [are] being raised as to why Bin Laden was shot dead, and whether he was executed, rather than taken into custody.
Another Guardian story is titled “For 10 years, Osama bin Laden filled a gap left by the Soviet Union. Who will be the baddie now?” It says:
Neoconservatives, “terror journalists” and Osama bin Laden himself all had their own reasons to create a simple story of looming apocalypse.
* * *
But he was also in a strange way a godsend to the west. He simplified the world. When communism collapsed in 1989, the big story that had been hardwired into citizens of western countries – that of the global battle against a distant dark and evil force – came to an abrupt end. Understanding the world became much more complicated until, amid the confusion of a global economic crisis in 1998 and the hysterical spectacle of the Monica Lewinsky affair, bin Laden emerged as the mastermind behind the bombings of embassies in east Africa.
* * *
With bin Laden’s death maybe the spell is broken. It does feel that we are at the end of a way of looking at the world that makes no real sense any longer. But the big question is where will the next story come from? And who will be the next baddie? The truth is that the stories are always constructed by those who have the power. Maybe the next big story won’t come from America. Or possibly the idea that America’s power is declining is actually the new simplistic fantasy of our age.
Finally, the Guardian, echoing many other European newspapers, hopes the demise of bin Laden will accelerate the withdrawal of American troops from Afghanistan.
A story in the Guardian titled “Osama bin Laden Killing Sparks Calls for Early Afghanistan Withdrawal” says:
The killing of Osama bin Laden has opened up divisions inside Barack Obama’s administration over whether the withdrawal of U.S. troops in Afghanistan, which is scheduled to begin this summer, should be bigger and faster than planned.
Politicians, soldiers and analysts from the U.S. to Afghanistan have debated whether the removal of the al-Qaida leader will shorten the war and open the way for reconciliation with the Taliban.
A fawning love letter to Obama by the left-wing Independent titled “Obama Has Shown the World Why it Fell in Love with Him” says:
He is not the Messiah, but he deserves to sleep easy in his bed, and leave the 3am angst to malevolent midgets like Donald Trump who will never trouble him again.
* * *
To those watching at home and around the world, he said, “a new dawn of American leadership is at hand.” After two years of hawkish foreign policy barely distinguishable from his predecessor’s, he has made good on that promise – not just with the killing of bin Laden, but by its manner. All the expert advice, we read, was to do what the Bushes, Clinton, Reagan and all other leaders in memory, recent or otherwise, would have done, which is flatten the compound and its environs with missiles.
* * *
People have criticised him for being ‘professorial’ as well as arrogant. They will do so no longer. He pondered for months, studied the research, weighed up the evidence, and reached the right conclusion. This is one cool, tough prof, and the lesson he has taught by example won’t quickly be unlearnt. In asymmetric warfare against a stateless enemy, invading sovereign states and slaughtering civilians is not the way to go.
If that sounds childishly simple, it defeated the simpleton Bush and his brutish cabal as they confused two-bit fake patriotism with American self-interest, and indiscriminate crusader cruelty with military wisdom. Let no one hear attempts to share Obama’s credit with Dubya without revulsion. He failed pitifully in this, as in almost every thing else, and even if water-boarding a key al-Qaeda operative helped to identify the courier, it cannot begin to justify holding boys of 14 and senile 89-year-olds at Guantanamo Bay. Guantanamo remains open. Obama hasn’t honoured on every promise, nor will. He is not the Messiah, although if the Kool Aid truck has redelivered at last, make mine an octuple.
Also at the Independent, Robert Fisk, the veteran Middle East correspondent, like many of his left-wing colleagues, has tried to promote conspiracy theories.
One essay by Fisk is titled “If this is a U.S. Victory, Does that mean its Forces Should go Home Now?” It says:
And there’s Bin Laden’s secret burial in the Arabian Sea. Was this planned before the attack on Bin Laden, with the clear plan to kill rather than capture him? And if it was carried out “according to Islamic rights” – the dead man’s body washed and placed in a white shroud – it must have taken a long time for the officer on the USS Carl Vinson to devise a 50-minute religious ceremony and arrange for an Arabic-speaking sailor to translate it.
Another Fisk conspiracy theory is titled “Was He Betrayed? Of course. Pakistan Knew Bin Laden’s Hiding Place all Along.” It says:
A single shot to the head, we were told. But the body’s secret flight to Afghanistan, an equally secret burial at sea? The weird and creepy disposal of the body – no shrines, please – was almost as creepy as the man and his vicious organisation.
* * *
The Americans were drunk with joy.
* * *
By midday yesterday, I had three phone calls from Arabs, all certain that it was Bin Laden’s double who was killed by the Americans – just as I know many Iraqis who still believe that Saddam’s sons were not killed in 2003, nor Saddam really hanged. In due course, al-Qaeda will tell us. Of course, if we are all wrong and it was a double, we’re going to be treated to yet another videotape from the real Bin Laden – and President Barack Obama will lose the next election.
The center-right Daily Telegraph, in an essay titled “How Many More Details of the bin Laden Raid will need to be ‘Clarified’?” says:
Oh dear, and it was all going so well. The White House has just “clarified” crucial aspects of the special forces operation that ended with the execution of Osama bin Laden. Specifically, it has pointed out that the leader of al-Qaeda was not firing an AK-47 when he was shot dead and that his wife was neither killed nor used as a human shield. Those three vivid details of the raid were the ones that dominated newspaper front pages across the world – and not one of them turns out to be true.
The glaring difference between the two versions was being attributed to “confusion” by the White House. What officials called the “fact pattern” – and we would call the truth – was only emerging as more of the participants were debriefed. This is all rather troubling. The fog of war does lead to confusion and mistakes but wouldn’t it have been more sensible if the White House had debriefed all the participants before pumping out headline-grabbing but inaccurate accounts of the action?
Also in the Telegraph, an essay titled “The Death of Osama bin Laden is American Rough Justice, Wild West-Style” says:
America is a nation of laws, but beneath all that fine sentiment about procedure there is a stronger hunger for natural justice. One is put in mind of the great, 19th-century historian Hubert Howe Bancroft, whose work on the Wild West discovered and defended an American tradition of personal, violent justice. Lynch law and vendettas, he wrote, were the informal exercise of a people’s will to obtain a verdict that the state was currently powerless to achieve. Europeans had been emasculated by their reliance upon formal law and bureaucracy. It was in the American wilderness that the individual was once again freed to pursue their own kind of rough justice. The assassination of Osama is as American as the shootout that killed Billy the Kid. It is a personal Wild West drama writ-large on the global stage.
Then there’s the continental European media.
In France, in an analysis titled “Democracy Strikes Back: A French View On America After Bin Laden,” Dominique Moïsi, a respected French analyst of transatlantic relations, says:
The death of Osama bin Laden allows the United States to redefine crucial relationships: with itself, and with the rest of the world.
* * *
This wasn’t a case of America showing off its superior technology; it was neither drones nor missiles that ended the hunt for bin Laden. It was the audacity, courage and determination of its soldiers that made the difference in “avenging” the innocent victims of 9/11.
* * *
America might have entered a relative phase of decline, and its staggering debt places the nation in an undoubtedly uncomfortable situation of dependence on China. But it nonetheless still remains the only great “multi-dimensional” power. Neither China, nor India, nor Russia, and even less so the European Union, have the capacity or the will to undertake an operation like the one that led to the death of Osama bin Laden.
* * *
“Hard power,” the power to compel, is indispensable, and “soft power,” the power to convince, is not sufficient by itself. This is an essential lesson for Europe, but does it come too late?
Also in France, the weekly newsmagazine Le Point, in an article titled “Bin Laden’s Fatal Error,” says:
Americans retrieved old notions of vengeful and speedy justice that they had never completely lost since the conquest of the West. “We got him,” proclaimed banners, in response to Barack Obama’s own words announcing that U.S. commandos had killed Osama bin Laden. “Justice has been done,” the president said simply.
* * *
Just as the Japanese had underestimated the terrifying consequences that their treacherous attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941 would have for them four years later, bin Laden may have underestimated the anger and the desire for revenge that he would arouse by striking the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001.
But what of the German media?
Germany’s center-right Die Welt, in an article titled “Is Killing Bin Laden Worthy Of A Great Democracy?” says:
The images coming from the U.S. were reminiscent of the scenes following Saddam Hussein’s capture in December 2003, when he was hiding in a hole in a farm near the town of Tikrit. What followed was a degrading treatment of the Iraqi president on the world’s stage, allegedly to determine his identity. In fact, the show was meant to demonstrate the power of the United States.
* * *
The message was clear: we can catch anyone, and no one is safe. This time, it was Osama bin Laden who had his turn – the al-Qaeda leader was the No. 1 public enemy in the United States. A $50 million bounty had been issued for his capture: “dead or alive.”
* * *
President Obama personally gave the order for the mission, and Americans are now celebrating as if killing Osama bin Laden had solved all of their problems in one stroke – high unemployment, runaway national debt, failed health care reform, the country’s tarnished prestige in the world.
* * *
The execution of Osama bin Laden – or it is better to speak of murder? – allows Americans to forget their troubles for a moment. It is like a balm on the wounds of the nation. In the rush of emotion, no one is asking the questions that need to be asked. For example – was it really Osama bin Laden who was killed? Is it possible that it was one of his doubles?
* * *
In the United States, the accused have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Guilt or innocence can only be decided in a proper court of law. Osama bin Laden was given the “short shrift.” He did not have the opportunity to defend himself from the accusations made against him, he had no fair trial, no lawyer. He was probably not even asked to surrender. Such a procedure is unworthy of a constitutional state. Even Adolf Eichmann, the architect of the Final Solution of the Jewish question, was given due process before he was sentenced to death.
* * *
If we ask ourselves, “cui bono?” (“who benefits?”), the answer is clear: the United States. The superpower was caught cold by the recent uprisings in the Arab world, it has failed to solve the Palestinian question, it has not even come to terms with inflation at home. Something needed to happen.
* * *
The timing was not perfect, but apparently no one wanted to wait until the tenth anniversary of 9/11.
* * *
At the very least, we should now demand the creation of an independent commission to investigate whether or not, and under what circumstances, Osama bin Laden was killed. Only then will we know for certain and prevent the spread of conspiracy theories like the ones that have developed about events such as the moon landing and 9/11.
* * *
The leader of such a commission would need to be an experienced and impartial jurist. For example, Richard Goldstone, the former Chief Justice of South Africa, who investigated Israel’s latest operation in Gaza.
The left-wing magazine Spiegel, in an article titled “He is Dead: Hurray?” says:
Much has been said about the Christian-influenced West’s civilizational superiority to the Islamic countries. But what is happening in the United States gives a different impression. When Americans celebrate the death of bin Laden with dancing and shouting over loudspeakers, it is horrifying to us [Germans/Europeans]. The bizarre cheers show us that American society is alien to us. …
* * *
“In God We Trust” is on every U.S. dollar bill, but this is not the forgiving God of the New Testament God – but rather the vengeful God of the Old Testament. In this country [Germany], rehabilitation is the goal of society, in the U.S. it is retaliation, including the death penalty.
* * *
That the death penalty may be imposed on bin Laden, even without trial, if only the crime and anger are big enough, and that their enforcement is enthusiastically applauded, proves how deeply the “eye for an eye” ideology is rooted in American society. Resentment may be powerful – morally superior it is not.
Also in Germany, the Legal Tribune, which is affiliated with Spiegel, published an article titled “On the Problem of the State’s ‘License to Kill’” which says:
Was the United States entitled to liquidate their No. 1 public enemy so easily and without a trial? When a state kills specific individuals without first trying them in a court of law, this is an illegal action. Beyond the question of whether the victim may have deserved his fate, human rights laws prohibit the killing of persons without following legal processes, such as those established by Article 6, Paragraph 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights dated 16 December 1966. For this reason, the U.S. military drone attacks in Pakistan, as well as Mossad hit squads to kill a Hamas arms dealer in Dubai in January 2010, are a violation of human rights. In addition, they are a major breach of international legal principle of non-interference; see for example Article 2 of the UN Charter.
The left-wing magazine Stern, in an article titled “Were They Allowed to do This?” says: “Osama bin Laden’s death is a political success for the USA. But were U.S. commandos allowed to just kill the leader of al-Qaeda? Or was this a case of ‘might makes right’?” Stern then lays out three legal scenarios: 1) Yes, it was legal because it was a police action; 2) Yes, it was legal because he was involved in a war; and 3) No, it was an illegal execution. The magazine prefers option 3 and says: “The U.S. government has so far only said the operation adhered to legal standards. It is still unclear what standards Obama’s lawyers mean.”
The left-wing Berliner Morgenpost, in an article titled “America Celebrates Bin Laden’s Death – and Shames Itself,” says:
Many Americans are celebrating the death of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden with euphoria and pure hate. Some Americans have expressed shame over the empty triumphalism.
* * *
Time, the old, once proud, now ailing news magazine, has announced that bin Laden will be on the magazine’s cover for a fourth time, this time with a red cross over a rogue portrait. Adolf Hitler, in its issue of May 7, 1945, was the first to have the privilege. Then, after a long break came Saddam Hussein (2003) and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi (2006). … The American writer Mark Twain was the first to point out the conflicted American psyche when he wrote: “I never wished a man to die, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.”
The centrist Süddeutsche Zeitung, in an essay titled “Applause for Bloody Revenge,” says:
Obama argues that by killing bin Laden “justice” has been restored. But many say the U.S. president has appealed to an “Old Testament sense of justice,” that is to say, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. This is actually “revenge” and has no international legal legitimacy.
In the center-left Frankfurter Rundschau, an article titled “Merkel’s False Joy” says:
German Chancellor Angela Merkel, a pastor’s daughter and the leader of a party that calls itself Christian. One should think that the Ten Commandments serve as their guide. For example, the fifth, “You shall not kill.” Now this is a recommendation on which every civilized human being can agree.
* * *
But how do we fit this with the message of the Chancellor: “I am delighted that we managed to kill bin Laden.” She is happy about the violent death of a terrorist, but who after all was also a human being. Was she paying attention in church when the pastor taught about the Fifth Commandment?
* * *
In the case of Merkel, the contradiction between the Christian talk and actual conduct is especially noteworthy. But the double standards of Western society is reflected everywhere. Anyone who claims to fight for the rule of law should not trample on its principles.
The centrist Die Zeit, in an article titled “Bin Laden Should Have Been Tried in a Court of Law,” says: “Killing bin Laden was a strategic mistake. A trial of the al-Qaida chief would have demonstrated the superiority of the democratic system. … The U.S. has missed an historic opportunity. … The Western world was in a similar situation once before. How great was the fear of the Allies before the Nüremberg trials. It was feared that Goering’s monologues would renew the enthusiasm of Germans for their slogans. … But the Allies went through it, according to the rule of law and as fair as possible. Today the Nüremburg trials are considered to have sown the seeds for the establishment of the International Criminal Court. … A trial of Osama bin Laden would have sent a very clever signal to the world community, which often has doubts about the principles of democracy (and those of America). It would have been a signal to the democracy movements in Arab countries. … A trial of bin Laden would have shown how much superior the rule of law is to an Al Qaeda-like theocracy.”
In Spain, the center-right ABC, in a commentary titled “Mourners of the New Che,” sums it up:
The reaction of the most ardent supporters of Socialist Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero and his media sycophants put in evidence the sinister result of years of Zapatero worship among certain sectors of the left. They were unable to congratulate the American president, whom they have worshipped as a “secular saint” in the mistaken belief that he was one of their own. The traditional knee-jerk anti-Americanism promoted by the radical left in our time has led to truly grotesque digressions on the relevance of the death of Osama bin Laden. Some have not shied away from defending bin Laden as the new Che. Making icons of murderers. Mourners crying out against the villainy of the “Evil Empire.” We should not be surprised. They are the same ones that support flotillas to Gaza in support of Hamas, the Palestinian terrorist organization that yesterday condemned “the assassination of the great Arab fighter hero.”
As the passage in this Spanish paper concludes, “the phobia of freedom makes strange bedfellows,” indeed.
Really, did you expect the anti-American contingent there to do anything else but bitch about it afterwards?
They dream of taking America down a peg or two each night. OBL actually managed to do just that. He never will be able to do it again. *THAT’S* what they are mourning.
I agree mostly, but it’s not what he might do, but rather, that his continued escape from justice, was what fired them up. As long as he was alive, the America haters could point and snicker, see how impotent the great Satan is?… and now that he has SEAL bullets in his head and heart,.
kinda kills that narrative about us being powerless before the onslaught of the haters anger,.. etc etc etc…
Now, they can’t say with any crediblity, that America can’t get who they go after. It may take time, filtering through backstabbing allies, terror enablers, thumbsuckers at home.. but the end was never in doubt.
He was dead the minute he gave the money and set the plan in motion,.. he’s simply been waiting all this time hiding under his bed for the day when he’d look up and see the eyes of America looking down at him over the sights of a SEAL’s weapon.
Maybe whoever is doing all this speculation regarding what is proper response to this evil man’s death should grow up and be thankful justice has been served, that a dangerous man is no longer roaming the earth causing terror and to get off their politically correct high horses and drop the arrogant attitudes.
You may contact me at 714-551-9583, you may also make this number available to anyone. I don’t care. I’m thankful that “their friend” is dead and I hope they spit then urinated on him before they kicked his butt overboard.
Dobbs
714, yay to the OC… I gotta move back there…
Interesting roundup. There’s enough criticism in there to make me think Obama won’t have much of a spring in his step on his next official trip to Europe, and that his days of speechifying at monuments are over.
Of course I don’t agree one bit with the calls for trials, investigations, etc., but I must say: it couldn’t happen to a more deserving guy.
There is no more deserving a guy..you are right.
One last thing…Germany needs to keep it’s mouth shut…don’t talk to the world about laws, morals, ethics…nazi creeps. And France, the next time you are about to be destroyed completely, don’t call America…I will gladly lead the call to spit on France.
In The American Enemy: The History of French Anti-Americanism, Phillipe Roger writes, “As Satre could have put it, in France, anti-Americanism’s existence always preceded any essence of America.”
That’s the cart before the horse and Europeans have never forgiven the barbarians who came to them in the 1940s and replaced their oom-pah-pah bands with John Coltrane and berets with baseball caps with no baseball stadiums in sight.
They are jealous and they have taken the worst of our political correctness and dosed themselves with it and pretty much look like American will in the very near future. They left the best off the table and still have Queens and princes to admire as if they were alien overlords.
The Europeans may as well overthrow democracy and re-install those princes since the gates of Vienna that were closed to Islam in 1683 are wide open now but the siege and conquest is one of immigration. You already have semi-autonomous Islamic enclaves through out Europe and the same is in its very earliest stages in America. Wave bye-bye.
Screw ‘em.
did you notice that the author only found one article in the french press, while, in other countries…
so, it seems that you extrapolate, and what can French could deduct of this moral laziness, that you deserve your bashing ! but they don’t care !
Mme. Marie in Sgt. Rock comics was a good person.
Uh huh, and most Germans never joined the NAZI party, and all the French people were in the Resistence… after 1945…
Oh please, the French have been flogging French moral/intellectual/spiritual/genetic superiority since waaaaay before America was even a colony. You’ve been annoying the rest of europe for centuries with it.
While I’m sure that there are a large minority of decent caring and supportive French.. they are shouted down by the usual cafe dwelling reds who still sob over the defeat of the Soviets in the cold war. We know who the decent French are,. they’re the ones who without fanfare, tend and care for the war graves of the Allied soldiers who died for French liberation. As for
French moral superiority on display..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7247251@N07/4134038516/
you could tell us you don’t deserve bashing, but we don’t care…
Oh Europe! How I love you! Still acting like you and your opinions actually matter, like you still have a semblance of power in the world. It’s cute really. And does anybody else find it hysterical to have the Germans think they have any moral authority to lecture people on being” civilized”?
I’m german and I can say not all germans think like that. Like in the US in Germany we have the problem that the most news papers and news agencys are left wing liberals. They think they are some godlike people who know everything better than the common people. For me on monday as I heard the news of the killing of UBL I ran to my university and put a big american flag in front of the lecture hall. From my fellow students I got mostly positive reactions except from some russians and middle eastern people. Unfortunately my professor is a 68-liberal who said “it is difficult to see the american flag” but at least I could press my point and the flag was waving throuhgout the whole lecture
The Special Ops did the right thing although in my opinion it would have been better if they had brought him to GITMO for further interrogation. After that he should have been executed on the spot.
God bless you guys
Thanks, Freedom. I did read some comments to German newspaper articles yesterday that showed that not all Germans agree with the editors, pundits, and TV moderators. It is sad that so many allow themselves to be intimidated by the all-knowing into rejecting their own common sense.
Well as it is in other “political correct” countries. The majority of the people are afraid of using their on mind. They trust the “mainstream media” in the hope that they are telling the truth. Unfortunately if liberals are in charge you can bet that they are lying to the people for their own political profit. You can split the german people on this matter in 3 great parts. On the one hand you have maybe 10 – 20% of hardcoreliberals whore are dominating the media. Conservatives which are making about 15% are getting crushed by using the nazi or evil capitalist argument against them. The rest is to a great part unpolitical or follows the mass of the opinion which is liberal at the moment. I noticed that at my university. Some people asked me: “Why are you doing that? Osama is not our business.” Most people don’t understand or won’t accept that radical Islam is a problem that concerns the whole western world. Bin laden and Al Quaida not only declared war on the US but on the whole western society. Their goal is to establish a worldwide caliphate and destroy anything that the founding fathers brought forth to the world like these self evident truths:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Bin Laden killed more than 4000 people world wide.Only liberals or “Gutmenschen” as we call them in germany
grant such mass murders a western style lawsuit.It was the right decision that they shot him on the spot.
God bless the good people of the U.S. of A. and all other freedom loving human beings.
Well said, Freedom1848!
Wallenrod (another pro-American guy from Germany)
1. Freedom1848 & Wallenrod, this American, a child of European refugees, thanks you for speaking out.
2. IMO the European Left is saying what the American Left wants to say. First, the American Left has to find a way around the fact that Obama is their chosen President.
For whatever reason the German and US left play very similar games (more so than say the US and Australian* or French left do).
Its worth remembering the National Socialists were not Capitalists, Christians, didn’t identify with Western Culture (they created the term Eastern Europe… to separate them from it… it was not spawned by the USSR).
I’m a Hungarian American and I know a couple actual ‘right wingers’ (related I’m afraid). They’ve fallen right in with the new green left… which has co-opted most of what the actual [bad / nazish] old Euro right was selling…
US conservatives and many Germans would be called liberal or liberal parliamentarian types in most of the world if the left didn’t pick all the political terms in use in both places. Actually, the ‘conservative’ party in Australia is called the liberal party (probably why it came to mind as an example). As to ‘our’ liberals, they’re rightly called leftists and socialists everywhere else…
* I do mean that big Island, not Austria.
Thank you, Freedom!! After graduation, maybe you can start a “Fair and Balanced” TV network in Europe…… We in yahoo land would love to hear more voices from our European friends. Our European friends would probably also like to hear more balanced input from their European compatriots…. Go for it!!
You might find this site interesting: http://www.brusselsjournal.com
There are some sane Europeans still around, and they are well represented at Brussels Journal. As much as it pains me to see enclaves of Islam in Europe, it might be that they are unwittingly doing the West a favor by forcing people to realize what is at stake. There are stirrings of anti-invader sentiment happening in Europe now.
@Wallenrod
Good to see another freedom loving german patriot reading pajamasmedia. That gives me a little bit of hope that maybe we can turn the rudder around.
God bless you
@gs
Thank you for your support. We are all westerners and finally we are sharing the same cultural heritage. That’s why we have to stay together. “United we stand, divided we fall”
At least theres hope that the tide is changing. The Finns and Hungarians made the first step to get out of the liberal utopia.You should have seen the outrage in the german MSM about the new hungarian constitution.The main problem they have with the new constitution is that the hungarians refer to their christian heritage.
Decide for yourself. I believe it was the right decision of the hungarian people to establish this new constitution.
http://www.euractiv.com/sites/all/euractiv/files/BRNEDA224_004970.pdf
http://www.euractiv.com/sites/all/euractiv/files/CONSTITUTION_in_English__DRAFT.pdf
God bless you sir
@SB
Well, what really could push the conservative cause in Germany would be the establishment of a german Foxnews branch. I doubt that we can do it on our own at the moment. The liberal mass media will crush us with the same arguments as they are doing it with the teaparties in the US. The problem here is, a great part of the german people have a great trust in the MSM; the americans know that liberals are lying most of the time. So if we have a big american conservative supporter behind us we could expose the liberal lies.Mr.Murdoch, please help us.
God bless you sir.
I’m glad there are still White Rose Germans, I just wish they had more of a say in their media, thanks Freedom..
Every friend I had who’d done duty in Germany said the same. The German people are vastly better than their media would lead you to think. They for the most part treated our troops well, as they knew for 60 years, they were there to fight with Germany against a Warsaw Pact invasion.
The extreme left has always wanted them gone, but then, they thought East Germany was a glorious experiment in socialism too.
I’m about half German on my mother’s side,. Ohio like alot of the midwest has a large German heritage. However, I can’t recall ever haing been told to stress that.. Native American blood. check,.. English/Welsh,. check,.. German,… that’s like being from Wisconsin right? Of course after two hundred years,. nobody still speaks German.. and the only surviving traditions are some recipes handed down..
But then, three warrior cultures combined, in just my family, but there are more,..
and Europe wonders why we are as we are?
And does anybody else find it hysterical to have the Germans think they have any moral authority to lecture people on being” civilized”?
Is this what I think it is: an attempt to deny Germany and Germans any claim to morality on the basis of the Nazi Regime which was crushed way back in 1945? Only a few of the very youngest men from that era are still alive and they are dying off quickly. Are you really trying to say that Germans will can’t make any non-hypocritical pronouncement of a moral nature even this long after World War II? If so, just when do Germans get that right? In another 50 years? 500 years? 5000 years? Or maybe just never again?
Nazism was crushed militarily in 1945 and a multinational foreign occupation kept very close tabs on the Germany for years after the war. Nazism was rooted out of institutions including schools and government and the Germans built a social democratic state along the lines of the Scandinavians. The Germans did some truly horrible things in World War II, of that there is no doubt whatever. But if anyone can be said to have gotten its act together since then, it is Germany. Surely Germans have earned the right to make the occasional moral pronouncement without having the Nazi era thrown back in their faces.
The Nazi card is played far more often by leftist Germans (media, Greens, etc) than by foreigners. Of course Germans have a right to make moral statements. The problem is that so often the statements they make have nothing to do with reality and a lot to do with feeling good about themselves. When you hear snide statements on TV about Bush sending an aircraft carrier to help after the tsunami, followed by comments that the Americans think the military is the answer to everything, then I reserve the right to tell them to shut up because they haven’t a clue.
I’m one of those Americans that are tired of the snide comments on when we send carriers to disaster zones. We carriers to disaster zones because they carry helicopters. That’s great that you Europeans choose to send food but you dont have the capacity to assist in the DISTRIBUTION of what you donate. When a nations infrastructure is shattered by a natural disaster do you think that its road and rail networks stay fully intact?
Exactly, Lonny, and not it’s not just the helicopters. A carrier can convert seawater into nearly a half million gallons of fresh water per day, and carry vast amounts of medicine and food (even on a normal day, with the air wing aboard, the carrier’s mess provide 3 meals/day for 6000 sailors).
A carrier also can carry a large amount of heavy construction equipment, and the nuclear carriers can supply a large amount of electrical power.
All while being able to react with the speed of one of the fastest ships at sea.
“In this country [Germany], rehabilitation is the goal of society, in the U.S. it is retaliation, including the death penalty.” From the leftist Spiegel.
Their sense of righteousness and superiority is enough to make me puke. It’s the same superiority that during the 1930s and 1940s would have expressed itself in militarism. Is there something in their DNA or drinking water?
No, there’s nothing in their – that is, in my case, our – DNA or drinking water. It’s in certain parts of the Germans’ intellectual tradition. The tragedy of Germany (and Austria, as well) lies in the fact that Karl R. Popper, F.A. Hayek and Ludwig von Mises are nowadays regarded as “anglo-saxon” thinkers, whereas Hegel, Nietzsche and Marx are held to be beacons of the truely “german” mind.
It is, sort of. Comment from visiting German friend while riding in the car: “why can’t your turn signal lights be like ours?” Will it never cease?
Here in America, we’re still held morally culpable by the left for slavery, the displacement of Native Americans, etc.
I am glad you say that so I don’t have to, but you forgot the Mexicans from whom we “stole” land and here in California we have to hear it almost daily. Doesn’t matter to me what the Germans have to say, collectively they are just jealous. I wish we would call our troops home from Germany, it would save us a lot of money.
Henry, I’m gonna choose…ummmmmmmmmm ahh. Let me see.
I think 5000 years. We should cut them some slack.
After all, I’ve got to listen to the President’s mentor Rev.(Racy) Wright go on about “God damn, America” for stuff that happened when I was still in someone’s DNA strand.
With affirmative action, reparations, apologies, payback and level playing fields, I’m guessing my guilt expiration date will be:
A. Never
B. When the horns of Gabriel blow.
I agree with your sentiment, but this sword cuts both ways so I ask when will Americans be allowed moral authority? Or will they similarly be permanently bound to the history of slavery, and the slaughter of indigenous tribes?
The common denominator here is the use of negative historical events to shout-down, malign, and silence nations of (selectively) white, Western origin. For example, how much do we hear about the Crusades and yet nothing about the Islamic incursions into Iberia and France that occurred before that? And when you do hear of it, it’s seldom negative — we are to believe that the Islamic invasion of Spain led to flourishing and advanced culture, but the Crusades were 100% negative.
I agree! But you forgot to mention that at one time the Middle East, Turkey and North African were at one time Christian. Muslim invaders changed that and it wasn’t by asking kindly.
Osama was just following the example of his prophet Mohammed who murdered people to spread his version of religious truth although I am beginning to think that Islam isn’t so much a religion as an early form of Fascism or something similar. In any case our soldiers couldn’t take any chance that this nut case hadn’t secreted explosives somewhere in the compound that would have injured or killed them. Liberals can talk all they want to about giving this man a fair trial but where in the U.S. would such a trial be held. We had the goods and he killed thousands of our citizens.
Welcome to the real world. It’s been 150 years since the Civil War and the south is still being punished by the north economically. They will forever be called redneck racists (even though that generation is dying off) and liberals are fond of telling everyone that the only REAL Americans are the Indians, even though we’ve been in this country since the late 1500′s.
No, it is more an attempt to explain their hysterical reactions to the US. Everything is seen as an opportunity to proclaim the US and Israel ‘as bad as Nazis’. The Russians never get the same treatment and it’s been going on for generations (same cr*p has been being proclaimed at various events since the 60s). It also seems to have some malformed nationalism connections (re: you can’t be pro German in polite PC society but you can bash groups that represent ‘the anti-German’)….
“And does anybody else find it hysterical to have the Germans think they have any moral authority to lecture people on being” civilized”?”
Not only do they think that, but apparently some Germans still have that sense of superiority over the rest of us, similar to what the Nazis had regarding their master race. The leftist Spiegel article was quoted as saying – “In this country [Germany], rehabilitation is the goal of society, in the U.S. it is retaliation, including the death penalty”. So morally superior to the rest of us. You’re right. That’s funny.
Just one more thought on this thread: The Germans who drive me crazy are the pundits, artsy types, and intelletuals, the equivalents of Chris Matthews, Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Paul Krugman, etc, etc. They prejudice normal Germans who have no personal basis for forming different opinions. Average Germans that I have dealt with over many years have been friendly and open-minded about America and Americans. But they only hear about political issues from their own MSM, which loves to interview our own America critics. Even Hollywood actresses with an IQ of about 40 who visited Berlin for an opening were asked to comment on Bush and Iraq.
vb, a big “Thank you!” from Germany!
Audie Murphy did my “talking” for me and the case is now closed without possibility of further review.
If I point a gun at someone and they raise their hands and say “friend”, somehow that type of education lacks resonance. We only let Germany build ships above a certain tonnage in the mid-1980s if you want a little historical tidbit.
I think they’re on probation until Jews say otherwise cuz they’re the injured party and my canary in a coal mine. Nothing like being slaughtered in your millions to give you the ability to read a person’s personality.
i think they are doing this in part because they are playing up to Russia…they want Russia to be big brother now.
Russia should take over Europe. China fits in here too….they are in the wings ready to help “POC’istan with money that we might cut off.
There is so much deceit going on…perhaps a purge in 2012 would help…wasn’t Europe to disappear in the twinkling of an eye???? so long
Number 1.) water-boarding never took place at gitmo.
Number 2.) Why are they acting like osama didn’t kill 3,000 innocent people or that pakistan didn’t knowingly harbor the 9/11 mass murder? Why isn’t harboring a mass murder who started a war illegal? Don’t talk to me about international law when all of that is relevant. This isn’t Iraq or Lybia. This guy attacked us and was therefore wanted dead or alive no matter where he hide.
Number 3.) They would of never gotten bin laden if they had to get a blessing from the double dealing pakistanis first. How naive can these people be? I’m sorry but the morality of justice trumps their law on this one.
And to think these progressive european s**t heads are Obama’s philosophical contemporaries. Well, welcome to the REAL WORLD, Mr. President. How’s it feel knowing that YOU are the one now being labeled a “cowboy?”
The only disturbing aspect of this is soon the American and european elites will be calling for the arrest of the SEAL team members who carried out the mission. Watch and learn how the far left works my fellow Americans.
What do you think Michael Moore will call his next movie? Abbotabad 1/11?
I have no problem being called cowboy, buckaroo, trigger-happy, etc. My answer is “I am embracing my inner American.” They can go and smell their own armpits as far as I’m concerned.
Pet peeve of mine: people taking Christians (in this case Angela Merkel) and Jews to task for wartime actions violating “thou shalt not kill”. If you go to the original Hebrew, it doesn’t say “lo taharog” — it says “lo tirtzach” which is properly translated as “thou shalt not MURDER” (and is translated that way in authoritative Jewish translations).
Whatever else the extrajudicial execution of a terrorist ringleader with the blood of thousands of innocents on his hands may be, it is not “murder” in my book.
Forget books: if someone comes at me I’m taking him out and I ain’t consulting no religious manual before I do it.
This is called common sense and I do not defer to the 78 million religious sects in the world before thinking.
The biggest promoter of human rights is outside religion and not in it and it started in 1776. Secularism tamed religion, not the other way around.
Here! Here! James, Great comment
“Secularism tamed religion, not the other way around.”
What a crock. Secularism goes hand in hand with Atheism. Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot were all atheists. Between them they’ve killed more people than all religious wars in history.
If American Southerners are still to blame for slavery, then Germans are still to blame for the killing of millions of Jews. Germans have no right to cast moral dispersion….ever.
PS: while I’m insufficiently familiar with Catholic or Lutheran doctrine on the matter, under Jewish law taking out OBL would almost certainly qualify as “din rodef” (“law of the pursuer”, under which it is a positive commandment to stop one who pursues the innocent with intent to kill, even if that requires deadly force).
Traditional Catholic “just war” theory would accord with that.
I’d love to ask the carping Europeans just one question: Had Allied forces captured Adolf Hitler alive, would he have deserved a trial in a criminal court? If not, why not?
Francis, you know half of them loved their little Fuhrer and the other half loved Uncle Joe Stalin. Never mind about them. One more generation and they shall be no more. If Russian tanks roll across the continent I hope this time we have the good sense not to send our youth to die for those bastards.
The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!
Ha-ha-ha-ha.
Eat cake, German dudes.
Can I remind certain readers that this article is SPECIFICALLY related to what is written in the MEDIA. Sorry for “shouting” but I think the capitalization of these words is necessary before the usual outpouring of anti-European sentiment gushes forth. Like your own left-leaning Obama worshipping media, what is printed does not necessarily reflect the thoughts and ideals of the general populace.
As an Irishman I don’t know a single individual who wasn’t delighted that this jerk is now sleeping with the fishes. Nobody feels that this guy deserved a trial because he has already confessed to his crimes countless times in the past 10 years.
In Europe, you have the same problem we have here in the U.S. Your “intellectual elite’” are a small, very insular group of self-righteous “theorists” who are absolutely certain they could create Utopia- if they could just get all you (us) stupid peasants to shut up and sing.
Or, barring that, exterminate most peasants other than those they need to do the scut-work in their Brave New World.
Seen in this light, their sackcloth-and-ashes routine over bin Laden isn’t surprising. After all, he wanted to kill Americans, capitalists, and Jews. Which have been the three principal bete’ noires of the “enlightened elite’”, on both sides of the pond, at least since the turn of the last century, if not longer. (The Fabians weren’t too fond of any of the above, either, if I recall correctly.)
The problem is, of course, that in Europe, as in the U.S., these loudmouthed idiots have the megaphone. And never shut up.
Which means the opinions of the majority of people simply are never heard, being drowned out by the interminable shrieking of the oh-so-perfect ones.
(In case you are wondering, yes, I have read “Anti-Americanism” by Revel’.)
cheers
eon
It is always good to remember the U.S. at its foundation was predominantly made up of the members of six European nations, German and French amongst them.
The rot broadcast and/or spread in print either side of the Pond comes predominantly from the crypto-communist scum ensconced in the media. Which also needs remembering before reaching conclusions hastily.
The media do not speak for the silent majorities, whose true opinion cannot be judged through misplaced inferences. It is good to think before one leaps.
What a surprise. Those who do nothing more than sit on the sidelines and criticize us are now…sitting on the sidelines and criticizing us.
Just more of the same. Nothing to see here folks. Move along, move along…
Some of them aren’t on the sidelines. They are trying to “rehabilitate” Qaddafi, with Obama’s help. Reports are they’ve already killed one of his sons and 2 grandchildren. That Obama is becoming a real “cowboy”, all in the name of “humanitarianism”. Not that Qaddafi doesn’t deserve it, but all that collateral damage.
The citation of “international law” by some European commentators to question the “legality” of the Navy SEALS’ killing of Osama bin Laden is only a warning to us Americans that we need to be clear that we don’t accept what Europeans call (but isn’t) “international law.”
As for the citiation, by some European commentators, of the Commandment that properly translated is “Thou Shalt Not Murder,” the Europeans do not recognize and do not honor the Ten Commandments of the Judean-Christian moral heritage. America historically has, and so America will be judge of that question. For those of us Americans who adhere to the Judean-Christian moral heritage, we understand that Osama bin Laden was killed as a combatant in a war that he declared on America; that’s not murder; that’s war-time justice.
Perhaps they should have dispatched the international police to make an international arrest, bringing OBL back to the international court for a trial by the international jury, and if convicted (iffy!) he could serve his time in the international prison.
Of course, if they didn’t have their heads lodged so deeply up their own backsides they just might have a fleeting moment of lucid clarity and realize that their own feckless inaction and phony moralizing is precisely what forced the United States to assume, de facto, the roles listed above.
Don’t forget, with any luck, he’d end up in a Swedish “prison” from which he could carry on his daily life in luxury (as shown, I feel ironically, in Michael Moore’s Sicko as an “advanced” way of treating the worst of society) with all the room he’d need to conduct his activities from “prison”.
The seals are fine as long as they don’t talk about it.
I think international law is a joke as much as I assume other posters here do… but it is not that bad when it comes to combat rules (i.e., if you don’t incriminate yourself you have a lot of latitude to just shoot the enemy and or it has room for common sense in a war).
Osama was not a civilian. They (the seal team) are not police. They are soldiers and Osama was a self declared combatant in a war he declared. The seals didn’t know if he had a gun or not, didn’t know if he had a remote detonator or not, didn’t know if he had back up about to show up and pin them down in the middle of a foreign country in a military town, et cetera. The seal team can’t say they would have rejected a surrender of Osama… but considering the dangers to them (examples above) in pausing to complete one, they can say they couldn’t safely complete one with him (hence double tap made the most sense in their situation).
If the super smartest administration in US history (and/or it’s fricken Attorney General) had said something like that after the raid… the lefty Germans wouldn’t have much they could say or do to be annoying about this…
OBL was DOA when the SEALS finally located him. It was always expressed he’d rather be executed by his muslim body guards than by Americans. Will civil lib/activists demand Al-Queda attend their international commission for further clarification/investigation? Good luck with that..
Interesting how WE got him but the Europeans didn’t. Always remember that the Europeans were looking for bin Laden just as much as we were. After all, al Qaeda was responsible for the Madrid bombings that killed roughly 200 Spaniards and al Qaeda has always tried to attack targets in Europe, especially Britain and France. There was that terrorist attack in London a few years back, but that may not have been a direct al Qaeda plot. Also, there was that major plot in London to blow up several jets flying to America. So the Europeans had a lot of reasons to want this guy dead, too. Yet we got him and they didn’t. Sour grapes, that’s all it is. As if the French or the British would have acted any differently.
“Always remember that the Europeans
wereshould have been looking for bin Laden just as much as we were.”FTFY.
WHY DIDN’T OBAMA KILL OSAMA IN SECRET?
If releasing the photos of Bin Laden’s dead body is a grave national security concern as the president said; and that doing so could imperil the lives of innocent US civilians and soldiers fighting terror in the field then why didn’t Obama keep the mission to kill bin Laden a secret? Why wasn’t it a covert operation with Obama denying any responsibility or connection to the deed? Does this make any sense? Could the release of gruesome photos with Bin Ladin’s face blown off be more of a national security risk than revealing the fact that we did it? That America was the executioner that struck the fatal blow? That the killing of bin Laden was a US operation from start to finish with the President calling the shots? How does releasing photos that Al Qaida could easily fake for deceiving the ignorant be more dangerous than going public with the operation? Which of the two puts US lives at more risk? Indeed, the disconnect between Obama suppressing the photos but not info on the mission is so wide and bewildering that you can drive a galaxy through it……..
Click my name to read the rest of this piece.
that is an excellent quesiton
my only answer involves the current administration’s fatal flaw:
the inability to say or act without politicizing everything
you’re correct; if this were a true covert mission then only the president, his nsa and a couple others would have been in on it (look at the contrasting situation room photo with everyone but the domino’s delivery guy in the shot)
this whole mission was totally political; the resulting confusion and misinformation only adds to this fact (they have to get their story in line with the daily polling data you see)
The Domino’s guy is in the picture. He’s the one in he corner wearing the white shirt and navy(?) jacket. The one without a laptop, has a brown paper bag next to him. Has a funny look on his face.
Well in all fairness, once we left a helicopter in the compound the ability to keep it secret probably dropped an order of magnitude or two.
To all the “news” folks who are bitching
“Your next”……
With Regard to the Euro Press,
The Enemy of My Enemy Is Still My Enemy
Was this planned before the attack on Bin Laden, with the clear plan to kill rather than capture him?…it must have taken a long time for the officer on the USS Carl Vinson to devise a 50-minute religious ceremony and arrange for an Arabic-speaking sailor to translate it.
Could someone explain contingency planning to Robert Fisk please?
Typical Euro-reaction from a continent that is Islamising rapidly and will achieve Dhimmi status very soon. If the Guardian says today is Thursday, better confirm with a calendar before believing it. As for Germany to lecture, well morality was never their strong suit. The US should tell them all to go to Hell, it wasn’t their cities that were targeted.
And by the way, the fifth commandment in the original Hebrew says “you shall not murder” not “you shall not kill” very different.
Mr. Kern:
So that’s a sampling of what heavily government-subsidized European Media thinks…okay. They are not, and never have been anything remotely resembling fair to anything American.
Now what do actual Europeans think?
I bet dollars to donuts that they are relieved that OBL is dead, and not inclined to quibble over the circumstantial details.
I live in London. It may be my co-workers trying to bait me, but for the most part, they seem somewhat horrified by the whole thing. I take the position that I will not revel in OBL’s death, well, not too much, but they are shocked when i say I think it is a good thing and I am well satisfied.
They are also somewhat shocked when I point out that (i) the Obama Administration, in contract to Bush, seems to be following a “kill don’t capture” strategy, (ii) that the Bush Administration was far more respectful of Pakistan’s sovereignty than Obama is, as evidenced by the huge increase in Predator strikes in Pakistan since 2009, and (iii) that despite all the campaign promises, 50,000 US troops remain in Iraq, the Afghan War has been extended, Gitmo is still open, military commissions continue and the Patriot Act was renewed. Hope & Change!
How about if OBL is NOT dead but was simply kidnapped and taken to a place like Diego Garcia for advanced questioning? It would explain why Obama doesn’t to release pictures that can be proven to be fake. It would also explain the double shuffle burial at sea. The mission was kill or capture. What if the mission really was capture but make it look like a kill?
If dogs should be quiet after killing a lion, what should mice do while hiding under the bed?
It so good to know Obama is thinking to himself; “Maybe I acted stupidly. I’ll have to make sure I remind everybody I still got the Nobel Peace Prize”.
And I’m sure he can’t stand being on the list of International Criminals with Bush and Cheney!
Isn’t there some reward on Carter’s head? The Koreans should turn him in to the Hague, and collect the cash!
I’m sorry, but I disagree, and I was a conservative journalist at a major conservative publication for five years.
Summary execution is illegal under international law. And American law.
This argument against snooty Europeans is nothing more than an ad hominem. Why have law at all? American conservatives turn into Nathan R. Jessep the minute it comes to questions of national security, ignoring the implications (toward lawlessness) of their thinking.
Also, if the mission was to capture Osama, this is a fail. We could have used the intelligence to destroy Al Qaeda. But American conservatives are too busy thinking emotionally about how “we got him” and too in a hurry to say YAY, see how wonderful waterboarding is?
I disagree. Bring on the investigation.
MC,
You’ve watched too much Star Trek TNG.
Navel gazing isn’t enlightenment and the concept of “International Law” is farcical and the topic of conversation at polite dinner parties where group-think predominates the social interaction.
Out here in the real world, it’s kill or be killed. I come down on the side of not being killed and to hell with what all the cool kids think.
Your point is taken, but OBL would fall into the realm of being an unlawful combatant, would he not? This would place him outside the Laws of War, to say nothing of any nation’s Criminal codes.
Tangentially, I’ve always been mystified that terrorists are not treated as pirates are, declared “hostis humani generis”, (Enemies of All Huamnity), and given no quarter and no mercy in their capture or killing…and that anyone can take action against them anywhere they are found.
Maybe it’s my maritime background, but that’s the way things used to be done on the sea with malefactors virtually identical in their tools and their practice from the terrorists of today.
Exactly. There are some concepts of history that have been lost to history. I like the term ‘outlaw’. One who stands outside the law, is not protected by it. Thus, ‘Wanted, Dead or Alive’.
I really like the concept of ‘Enemies of Humanity’. Shoot on sight, or hang them from a yardarm. Their time on Earth should be measured in small increments, once we have their location.
Could it be that 17th century had better lawyers than we have today?
Yes – I don’t think they teach the “law” anymore. Don’t they just study court cases/rulings?
lol (you don’t deserve any other kind of answer)
MC, the only sage thing I can tell you is things are never what they seem, but if you always expect people are lying, then what a surprise if you believe people lie to you.
And frankly, you and I will never know the true, full story, so let this sleeping Dog lie.
MC:
The post-modern interpretation of the customary laws of war falls outside the historical norm. What we call “International Law” dates from the Peace of Westphalia ending the very destructive Thirty Years War. The Law of Armed Conflict is based on the principal of reciprocity between nations. It doesn’t apply to those entities outside its bounds. Under the customary laws of nations NGOs, as we call them today, that engage in piracy and warfare are subject to execution without trial. This became the norm after the mercenary armies used during the Thirty Years War devastated Central Europe. After the war it was agreed that only nations could engage in warfare and mercenaries were banned and treated as brigands. Part and parcel to the establishment of these international norms national rulers, no matter how vile, were given sovereign immunity. It is against international law assassinate a head of state. When post-moderns argue that the killing of Bin Laden is illegal while at the same time advocate the targeting of Gaddafi are the ones undermining international law. Killing Bin Laden strengthens international law by denying protection to unlawful combatants.
We are on the verge of falling back into the conditions of the pre-modern era where assassination was the rule and war was conducted by private organizations hired by princes and kings. The result was chaos and mass death. The Westphalian system has served the civilized world well and our abdication of it will drive us back to a new dark age.
“This argument against snooty Europeans is nothing more than an ad hominem. Why have law at all? American conservatives turn into Nathan R. Jessep the minute it comes to questions of national security, ignoring the implications (toward lawlessness) of their thinking.”
Ever hear of Libya? How were conservatives involved? The “snooty” Euros and Obama, at the behest of the UN and a bunch of Arab dictators, attacked a sovereign nation. Now they are trying to kill Qaddafi, whether he is the rightful ruler or not. How does that conform to international law? “Hey, guys. We’re having a war. Everyone’s invited. Just make sure it doesn’t appear like we’re piling on. We’ll call it humanitarianism. Don’t mention the oil.”
One death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.
Likewise, Osama being killed by one man is a crime against humanity; the Duck of Death getting whacked in the course of a million-man invasion is an instance of “Excrement occurs”.
Maybe we should’be sent him some flowers with a warrant hidden inside it. We’d of had him on a technicality then and could’ve fined him if he didn’t show up.
Really, do you want a guy like Bin Laden lawyered up and spouting propaganda and stirring up other nuthatch muslims?
Bin Laden had no respect for any laws that are known and deserved none in return. I hope his wife gets 9 life sentences.
This whole thing stinks to the high heavens. My first thought was ‘what is BHO trying to cover up today?’ This is so out of character for him-the ninny. Come to find out, he hadn’t much to do with it. No surprise there. It was reportedly a coup in the admin that made this happen. He being none too pleased. All of the contradictions being reported? What else is new from this admin. They appear to have no real leadership or management skills. (pardon the understatement)
Second thought regarding the Europeans, Don’t they know that because of BHO all of Americas sins are forgiven? He bowed to every last one of them and now they like us! That’s his story and he’s stickin to it.
Ok everyone, back to listening to what he says. Never mind what he does… run along now….
I am an American living in London. The Europeans have a strange bi-polar view of Obama. They whine and complain about every US policy, but worship Obama, as though he has nothing to do with the US policy. And maybe he doesn’t. I tend to view him not as some evil Socialist overlord butu as Chauncey Gardiner, not quite sure how he ended up in the fancy house with the big tv, but discovering that so long as he says something nonscensical, people will continue to fawn over him (and let him watch th ebig tv)
Anthony, I’m from Germany myself. When many people were against Reagan, I thought he’s the best that happened to America in a long time. Not really understanding all the politics but having a little insight from my grandparents that lived in America. During the Clinton years, when I felt like throwing up, German’s couldn’t understand why the majority of Americans had an issue with his immoral life style. They couldn’t see that character matters if you are a leader. Now with Obama, I get surprised responses when I say he’s about the worst that could have happened to America. They do not understand at all what’s at issue with this man. The only thing they see is that he’s the first black American who is a president. Sadly enough, I know a black Christian who otherwise serves God with all his heart and soul in his ministry but also voted for Obama. Needless to say, I live in the States for the last twenty years and it truly frightens me if I wouldn’t feel secure in the hands of God.
So are you saying Obama squandered the goodwill of the world? After such a short time. Heaven forfend. It could have been the dawn of a new era. Or it could just be that the Europeans suck and have nothing better to do than argue about how many angels (which they don’t believe) can dance on the head of a pin.
Not that what OBL thought matters one way or another, but wouldn’t he have been offended to be considered a criminal subject to trial by infidel Western jurists? He deemed himself a jihadist fighting a holy war to reimpose the caliphate. His home was part of the battlefield, not a crime scene. And can you imagine how long such a legal circus would have gone on if the preposterous “international community” had a hand in it? Remember Milosowitz? (sp). He died while testimony droned on endlessly with the prospect of years to go before the last appeal was disposed of. European legalists might have seen that as a triumph of something — bureaucratic rule following, perhaps; they count on that to subdue the murderous beast within them that shed so many rivers of blood in the 20th century — but it was perhaps a greater cruelty to draw out the suffering of a man who probably preferred a quick jig at the end of a rope. Europe has reached the point of decay where theory and the abstract have greater meaning to them than unvarnished reality.
So, if I understand this right, according to the talking heads in Europe, who used to be called the intelligencia, it’s AOK for them to take out Gadaffi by bombing his compounds repeatedly while violating the UN resolution’s rules of engagement for no fly zones to keep the access to oil? No wonder the German tax payer doesn’t want to join in to bail out French and British and German banks holding worthless bonds for Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, and France. Curious, those same countries didn’t help the West Germans when they had to take on the economic basket case called former East Germany. Besides, the Germans get most of their energy from the Russians, who just so happened to let those idiots foul their own oil nest egg in Libya. Damn, those Russians make good state capitalists that even puts the Chicago way to shame.
blah blah blah…
make your home work first !
Better get to burqa shopping. You will need it in Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi’s French Sultanate.
Yes for some odd reason liberals are more comfortable with bombing.
Hague Convention of 1907 – “a neutral country has the obligation not to allow its territory to be used by a belligerent. If the neutral country is unwilling or unable to prevent this, the other belligerent has the right to take appropriate counteraction.” So, what’s this thingy about ‘international law’?
Correct. Also, the Hague Convention has these two interesting points;
1. In a declared war (which this was as soon as bin Laden declared his fatwa against the West in 1997), the leader of the enemy nation-state, army, etc., is just as legitimate a target as any soldier on the battlefield. If Hitler had been killed by a bomb dropped from an American B-17 or British Lancaster, it would have been entirely legal, on the principle of the silly bastard should have known the job was dangerous when he took it.
2. Also under the Hague Accords, when a nation is invaded in the course of a war, the defending army must be in uniform and identify themselves as combatants. After a certain interval (usually 24 to 48 hours), any combatants not in uniform are required to lay down their arms and cease and desist. After which, if they are caught engaging in combat and not in uniform, they can not only legally be executed on the spot, the occupying army is not required to accept any attempted surrenders.
During the Occupation (of France, etc.), the German Army used this clause to justify their mass executions of civilians to intimidate the Resistance, which is why it is rarely invoked now. But strictly speaking, the jihadists (including bin Laden) were not, and are not, technically entitled to be treated as lawful combatants, because they neither have uniforms, nor would they wear them if they did. (In obedience to Mao Tse-Tung’s principles of guerrilla warfare.)
/just a point.
cheers
eon
This would be a good argument if Europeans were actually interested in the actual law, or in the real world. They aren’t.
I live in Brussels, and I know very well that international law clearly states that non-uniformed combatants of any kind have zero protection from anything. They are not protected from summary execution. They are not protected from capture, torture, …
The accords even say that any civilian casualties are acceptable if they resulted from any action against non-uniformed combatants, if it is not easy to make the distinction between combatants and non-combatants based on the uniform the combatants are supposed wearing. (and there has to be some measure of proportional response : no hunting bin laden with atom bombs)
Any nation-state is perfectly at liberty, according to international law, to drop an bombs on any city, as long as the intent is to kill terrorists, and this is considered by his superiors to be a reasonable action.
Furthermore, judgement on these matters can, and should, only take place by the commander in the field, or any of his superiors IN THE FIELD. No external judge has any basis international law to do anything at all after the fact.
But all this, while taught in every European law department by professors who stand thoroughly behind these principles (especially the older ones), but it just doesn’t matter.
The international court nevertheless exists, judges, and everybody can feel smug and superior. That there is no law behind it, that normal procedures of proof are not followed, etc … nobody cares. And everybody has the strong opinion that law is supposed to be whatever they “feel” is right.
There is no recognizable “international law” that is invoked here. It’s just that European leftists have renamed the concept of “my personal feelings” to “the law”. Just like their American version seems to have done.
It need not be uniforms. Even a simple armband of some kind, as long as all your guys are wearing them, can be considered sufficient uniform to entitle you to protection under the law.
It kinda gets sticky though, because after WWII, the victorious Allies declared that partisans were actually legitimate combatants, even though they did not wear any kind of identification. In other words, it’s okay if your side does it. That left the door open to others doing it, and then the legal picture gets murky.
The post upthread about pirates being ‘Enemies of Humanity’ is probably the best answer. They have no legal protections, nor do those who harbor them.
Before the legality of the killing can be considered, it seems to me one must decide if the pursuit of bin Laden and his cronies was a military action conducted in wartime or a police action to enforce criminal laws. If the former, then enemy troops and leaders can be killed wherever and whenever found as long as hostilities persist. If the latter then he should have been captured and tried.
It seems to me it was both and that any available remedy was legitimate. It is possible to be both an enemy combatant and a criminal. When confronted with such a threat, how is it justified to claim that an election must be made by the authorities when dealing with a combatant? Maybe, if a combatant is captured, and punishment in excess of confinement is desirable, the election must be made. But not in the field behind enemy lines.
I predict that there will be a growing chorus of critics on the left both in America and Europe clamoring for an investigation and indictment of those involved. It is a favorite tactic of the left to seek to intimidate to deter actions which they oppose but don’t have the political support to outlaw. Except that, you can bet Obama has his tracks covered.
Here’s a wager for you: if that scenario plays out, Obama will be found to have issued some sort ofambiguous order to “kill or capture” which everyone understood to be a kill order. Remember the Somali pirates on the Maersk Alabama? The order to the captain of the US warship was to “shoot to kill” if there was a direct threat to the merchant captain, all the while the pirates were holding AK-47s on him.
If Bush had been POTUS the American media would be calling for him and Cheney to be dragged to the Hague in chains. The people celebrating this event weren’t patriots they were Obana partisans cheering his political victory.
They should revoke his Nobel Peace Prize. I am still waiting to see when they are going to prosecute the targeting of Ghadaffi, who is a head of state. With all due apologies for offending Muslim sensibilities, “When pigs fly.”
European Anti-Americanism is older than Marx, it goes back to the early 1800s at least. And it’s always been a upper-class attitude. The original root, I think, was the American sin of demonstrating that the European ruling class wasn’t needed, we not only got along fine without then, we prospered. The Left adopted it because America likewise proved Socialism wasn’t the only viable alternative, naturally that’s very threatening to them. Then there is the envy from the fact that Europe’s days as Great Powers is over, and America is the biggest kid on the block, now. So it was very convenient for the European elitists to use Anti-Americanism as part of the glue with which to cement a pan European identity.
They aren’t going to give it up. Ever. We will never have their approval, they will tie themselves into knots if they have to to keep on disapproving of us. We are their Other, and they need to have us keep on being their Other. The parallel with American Progressives and their contempt for all American non-Progressives is exact. Get used to it.
Great post. I think you’ve nailed it. America, with respect to Europe, is forever damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t. You can see it even in ephemeral matters, for instance Europe criticized America for “not doing enough” in Haiti (or after the Indian Ocean tsunami, etc, etc) yet simultaneously lambasted it for its supposedly naked imperial ambitions when it sent aid to those exact same places. This they can do without a hint of cognitive dissonance.
Post of the day
Many argue that bin Laden should have been tried in a court of law.
Don’t all these effete European élitists and stupid Leftists all over the planet have anything better to do ?
You can throw in guys like the executive director of Human Rights Watch, Kenneth Roth, who is criticizing the United States for killing terrorist leader Osama bin Laden without due process.
While you’re at it, toss in that gaggle of lying hypocrites at “The UN”.
And a whole bunch of people in the United States government, individuals like Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden who, without any real understanding, cop the fashionable Leftist position that “enhanced interrogation” techniques don’t work.
Maggots everywhere gag on all this holier-than-thou, ivory tower ignorance.
No, Tanstaafl, they do not have anything better to do. Everyone wants to think well of himself and one way to do that is to stake out a position of moral superiority which costs oneself nothing. As Orwell put it, “Crying ‘Peace!’ behind a screen of guns.”
One problem the United States has in closing down its terrorist prison at Guantanamo is finding countries willing to accept the prisoners. Countries which do so run the risk of future terrorists threatening or committing terror to intimidate their governments into releasing them. Remember that the West German government capitulated to such threats at least twice. They freed members of the Red Army Faction under threat of future terror by the RA Faction. Even though the massacre at the Munich Olympics was a horrible crime, the West German government freed the three surviving terrorists when their gang, the Black September group, hijacked a Lufthansa airliner. Imagine if the USA had captured Bin Laden alive. Would Germany offer to rehabilitate him? Some Germans would, especially those with memories too poor to recall Germany’s concessions to terrorists.
International Law would be legislated by an international congress or parliament, enforced by an international president and adjudicated by an international supreme court. I don’t remember voting for my international congressperson.
In order to question the appropriateness of U.S troops firing on Bin Laden one must intentionally disregard decades of suicide bombings, bomb vests and planted explosive devices. Bin Laden was dangerous to his last breath.
Let’s free the Europeans. They shouldn’t have to suffer the presence of America. Any country that would try Americans for killing bin Laden should have all American military removed from its soil, NEVER to return. It’s time for Europe to defend itself.
As long as economics are involved, it will never happen, although I would like it to. There are many towns across the world that survive strictly on the business from US military bases. Close the bases, the towns fold.
I love it when the Left eats its own. I suspect we’ll start hearing more about America’s legal independence from the Obama regime…
People have criticised (Obama) for being ‘professorial’ as well as arrogant. They will do so no longer. He pondered for months, studied the research, weighed up the evidence, and reached the right conclusion.
That is obsequiously disgusting. And probably far from the actual truth of how the decision went down.
Is there any mention in that “piece” of the special forces/Seals who trained for months in Afghanistan in a reconstructed version of Osama’s compound ? You know, the guys who actually made it happen ?
(Bush) failed pitifully in this, as in almost every thing else, and even if water-boarding a key al-Qaeda operative helped to identify the courier, it cannot begin to justify holding boys of 14 and senile 89-year-olds at Guantanamo Bay.
Ah the Bush bashing, and the hypocritical Leftist meme that it cares (really, really cares) about some guys at Guantanamo picked up in Afghanistan.
The 14 YO lobbed a grenade at American troops in Afghanistan. The remaining 200 odd prisoners at Guantanamo are considered hard core, un-releaseable, even by that silver tongued genius (not) Barack Obama.
Maybe we should dump those remaining 200 or so guys at the offices of some British or German rag (aka newspaper) and they can deal with them.
I concur with your ‘..SEALs training..’ comment.
I’ve friends doing 2, 3, 4 tours in the M E. They tell me they continue to go becuase it’s what they’re TRAINED to do, and would be doing monotonous, boring training outside the AOR. In essence, getting sloppy.
This blows many illiberal’s minds..
I could care less what illiberal European media espouses. Empathy for OBL.. riiight.
Just means I’ll wear my, ‘Waterboarding Instructor’ t-shirt more often when on holiday overseas.
An American victory is a deep insult to “The International Community.”
Europe’s military forces have atrophied to the point of uselessness. They now exist for only a single purpose, to be an arms showcase so the can sell their products from EADS, BAE etc. to third world nations. They have a comfort level of knowing Uncle Sam will bail them out as we did in both World Wars. So they feel free to criticize the US when we use it to serve justice on a man who ordered the killing of 3,000 innocent civilians.
It was the same “above it all” attitude that deluded France and Britain into thinking a piece of paper would provide safety from the Nazi regime in Germany. France fell in less than 40 days and only the courage of Churchill to confront Germany saved the day.
The past month has shown how toothless the European military is. Mired in defeatist, self imposed strictures, it is unable to put a hurt on Libya’s dictator Kaddafi. Planes can’t fly because spares haven’t been ordered. They think it’s better to have three showpiece Eurofighters for demos at Farnborough and Paris air shows than two, with spares, that can fight.
Thank goodness for operations like SEALs put on. It shows what a true, balanced military can do.
Or as my father put it to me as a child…
“Armed Forces of Europe consist of Generals, and Marching Bands”
Who opens the, ‘dailymail’ to get news anywho?
It’s celeb pics section is far more ‘thought provoking’ and honest than its fictitious ‘world news’ section.
Yes, I read the dailymail only for the salacious, celeb stories, with accompanying horrifying pictures of things like people who’ve had 30 rounds of plastic surgery.
Then I feel dirty and shallow and back off for awhile
tanstaafl.. please don’t say Mrs. Beckinsale is in the surgery camps well. If so, then I’m NOT looking forward to the upcoming vampire/femme fatale flick.
I will have to research the ‘dailymail’ Beckinsale image stories of course. For ‘proof’. hahahaha
Anybody else find it odd that a British newspaper (the Dailymail) is almost completely filled with AMerican stories – pretty much all celeb news – but American celebs nontheless.
European anti-Americanism has always had a strong element of envy, clothed in moral superiority. There has never been any humility to it, least of all with regard to Europe’s own glaring failures, inaction and hypocrisy. These are all characteristics of advanced societies where there is the luxury of navel gazing.
I predicted this ten minutes after the announcement of Osama’s death.
I read these comments from the European press as expressing their own self-loathing as much as it does contempt for the U.S. The key line strikes me as… “Neither China, nor India, nor Russia, and even less so the European Union, have the capacity or the will to undertake an operation like the one that led to the death of Osama bin Laden.”
That seems an admission (shared by many in Europe) that they simply lack the raw courage to take on a monstrous evil. They are useless in the face of a genuine enemy and the Guradian is the most useless of all. (And we certainly don’t expect China or Russia to do anything.) This almost surreal display of hypocrisy allows the EU elites and their media lapdogs to have it both ways -They can breath easier now that a dangerous threat has been neutralized while, at the same time, hold on to their fake moral superiority on the way it was accomplished. Of course those “cowboy Americans” somehow don’t include Barack Obama – “One tough prof.”
We should pull every solider and every miliarty resource out of Europe and cut off whatever foreign aid any and all European nations are receiving.
Not that Europe hiding behind the US is anything particularly new. The only way they were able to afford the social programs the left crows about from time to time was because it was US guns (and to a lesser extent those of the British) that kept the Soviets from expanding their eastern European holdings (in practice if not in theory; technically there were sovereign countries, but as the various suppressions of uprisings in the area by Soviet tanks showed, it was the Politburo calling the shots) further west-ward.
Sometimes I wonder if the massive casualties of WWI closely followed by WWII didn’t deal something of a genetic body blow to Europe. It seems almost a case of classic selection, with the bravest becoming machine gun fodder in a new, never before seen industrialized slaughter, while the more feckless and craven sort were left behind to exert a disproportionate influence on the genetics of the population.
No italian newspaper or magazine was review here: is this for limited spelling ability? Google Translate is your friend.
I didn’t hear anyone (common people) complain about how and why OBL was killed. Not even some hard core leftist. The only people really making noise against the US int his are the loony leftists no one take seriously (like Giulietto Chiesa, a psychiatric case of a journalist correspondent from Moscow of the communist newspaper Unità in the ’80, that wrote about how good was the life there; then truther after the 9/11, then he told (2001) us how things would become catastrophic when the US went in Afghanistan).
Who cares what the Yurpeens have to say? The bastard is still dead.
Was the attack on the WTC a violation of something called international law?
In wartime, this is a war after all, what credence does int’l law have, this particular war is not even covered by Geneva Conventions, not that anybody reads or cares. This will employ some members of the huge pool of America Haters for a year or two and also eventually work into the inevitable twisted backlash within America, murder, shame, the foodstuff of our homegrown loons.
The NY Times has already began skirting around the edges.
This is why the photos haven’t been released. Few in the US care whether it was an assassination or not, but people in other countries do.
The photos would probably indicate how close the Seals were when OBL was shot. If they were worried about his movements, they would have shot him when they entered the room, or from several feet away. If they shot him at point-blank range, then they had approached him and could have subdued him rather than shooting him. Experts could probably tell from the pictures.
Little lenin is in a box on this. It is certainly possible that the Seals made the decision to execute OBL, and possibly against orders. But what can little lenin do…prosecute them? The US public would go ballistic if he did that.
This is why the original story was about a chaotic fire fight with OBL using a woman as a human shield, etc. Well that has been unravelling, and now it appears there was only one armed guy, OBL was unarmed and there was no human shield. It’s looking more and more like an assassination. So what does Little Lenin have left? He threw the body in the ocean, with lead weights, bet on it. The Seals won’t talk. They can discredit the victims in the house. But the photos would be hard to refute.
“If they shot him at point-blank range…..Experts could probably tell from the pictures”
Probably not….
A bullet does not bleed off enough velocity in its first 100 yards to measurably change the size of a wound cavity. A wound from 5 feet away would be identical to one from 100 feet, or 100 yards.
Only extreme “close contact” wounds (like, from less than arms length away) would be noticeably different…and then only due to the presence of powder (flash) burns around the wound, not the amount of wound damage itself…and even THESE are sometimes not noticeable untill the blood is washed away, and the wound examined, like during an an autopsy.
Given that they probably used specialty SMG with sound/blast supressors (as opposed to standard M-16′s or typical L/E style handguns) any “normally expected” powder burns from such a close contact wound would be even further diminished.
If the Bin Laden “shootout scene” photo is the same quality (distance from camera, lighting etc) as the images of other dead guys posted by Reuters, it would be impossible to know what the “range” of the shooting was.
Only a well lit closeup of a cleaned wound area, in an “autopsy type” photo would give any real clues.
Maybe I should have said “anyone who looks at the pictures” instead of “experts”.
Since the story has now changed and changed and changed to become “OBL lunged” instead of he engaged in a fog of war running gun battle, any picture of the double tap is going to make people believe more fervantly that it was an execution, not some soldiers acting as soldiers should.
These European idiots beleive bin Laden has more rights than a conventionally armed soldier (who can be shot even if unarmed, unless he clearly indicates surrender, by both word and deed). They are proposing rules of engagement even more restrictive than those used in a civilian police drug raid. We should dismiss these idiots with the contempt they deserve. When special opps forces confront terrorists in enemy territory, they are not making an arrest, they are waging war. Any non-combatants encountered, like women and children with no weapons, deserve forbearance, but terrorists, armed or not, do not.
Its a great time for The whole universe & message to human nature that a curse is dead now.
B human being first
these idle brained “intellectuals” love nothing more than wallowing in the self-indulgent eroticism of creating gordian knots; impossible to navigate by their rules but easy enough to bypass with a spine and a sword
instead of groveling over one another with the next list of supposed international laws that have been violated why dont these eunuchs do something about their own localities; they could start with firehosing the phoney baloney “protestors” that rampage and destroy private property on a daily basis under the shroud of “labor rights,” “student fee hikes,” “imperialism,” etc…
Gasp! Do you mean the ICC might acutally issue an arrest warrant for . . . . Barack Hussein Obama???? Nobel Prize winner Barrack Hussein Obama???
YES!
Uh, we have a no go at this station.
While I am not a fan of Obama, there’s no way I’d be at all happy about him being brought up on war crimes trials for this. I didn’t like lefties screeching to do this to Bush, and it isn’t any better to see people on the right spouting the same sort of thing.
I’m not a fan, but on this one occasion I’m glad he gave the green light. I don’t like the political grandstanding, I don’t like the nattering after the fact, but props for giving our guys permission. And no American should think happy thoughts about the international community bringing an American president up on war crimes trials for obtaining justice for our people — please keep that in mind.
I am not a big fan of Obama either but he made a good call. Finally!
Never was more fitting Kipling’s apophthegm on the baleful influence of the press: “power without responsibility, the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages.”
pmk:
Europe can’t even mount a meaningful offensive against a nothing country such as Libya without Uncle Sugar to hold their hand. As for abandoning them I’m all for it. We should leave Europe to its own stupidity. We have our own problems at home. There is a hostile Mexico and Latin America to our south and then there’s Canada, which squats under our military umbrella while criticizing us unceasingly and spending about 29 cents a year on its own military.
As for Osama the world just became a better place and will be better still once Zawahiri and a few others are dispatched to meet their virgins. Critics overlook one important thing: the Islamists’ utter contempt for Western concepts of law and justice. They must be dealt with on their own terms and thank God we have the means and the will to do just that. GO NAVY!
“You and what army, Euro-boy?”
Now be nice … I THINK they still have a half troop
of cub scouts left in Europe …. SOMEWHERE …
Come to think about it; that half troop of cub scouts probably belongs to the US troops stationed over in Europe to protect their worthless a**es; so go ahead & be mean. If they object; we’ll turn those cub scouts loose on ‘em… Of course the kids won’t be able to collect the “beat up France” merit badge … they stopped giving them out because the mice, lemmings & pocket gophers didn’t have any place to display them …
What Tony R said.
That’s media talk quoted. They’re a bunch of handwringing creeps. Nobody I know cares whether Bin Laden was firing an AK47 past his wife or taking in a movie with a bag of popcorn.
Good job, SEALs.
Bin Laden and his organization were at war with the United States and we with them. This was a wartime military assault intended to kill an enemy leader. Unless Bin Laden actually threw up his hands and shouted “I surrender!” before they shot him, there’s no case to be made under the laws of war.
Should have said, I’m English, living in France.
Knock-knock
Who’s there?
Europe.
Europe who?
Europe who keeps asking the USA to bail them out every their tit’s stuck in the wringer.
If some nation in Europe had had the guts to take out Adolf Hitler in 1940 or so, there would be tens of millions of people alive today, or their children, that died because of his war.
“In the United States, the accused have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Guilt or innocence can only be decided in a proper court of law.”
I wanted to address that this only applies from American policy to American citizens, or those attempting such. You do not receive this benefit of enlightened thinkers if you are an enemy combatant, especially one who has declared a jihad on “…any American tax payer”.
Lets extridite both Obama and Bush to Europe so that they both can face war crime charges. Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.
I have a better idea. A mass purge of the ever-treasonous left.
A few thousand executions of terrorist-loving lefties woould be just what the doctor ordered.
I don’t know what kind of Bush crime you are referring to, but assuming you think it was the invasion of Iraq, Bush had the approval of Congress to go into Iraq, and he was enforcing UN resolutions against Hussein. The US also went into Iraq with twice as many counties in coalition as Obama against Libya. Let’s not forget that Saddam and his psycho sons are now dead and Iraq is one of only 2 democracies in the Middle East. What Bush is not given credit for is if Hussein were still running Iraq, he would also be on the way to having nuclear arms, to defend against Iran. The Euros call Bush a cowboy, but because of their envy, never mention his success in Iraq. I’m not a fan of Bush’s other policies, but he should be given credit where credit is due.
Good point. And among those approving the action was none other than U.S. Senator Hillary R. Clinton (D-NY), now Secretary of State.
cheers
eon
It’s hard to believe that the same administration that put two Navy Seals on trial for punching a captured terrorist in the stomach just ordered a unilateral military hit in a foreign sovereign country, without their permission and without UN sanction, that took out 23 alleged terrorists, including women, who weren’t read their Miranda rights or given a trial. Now we learn that they weren’t even armed. This was nothing more than a cowboy-style commando assassination. Obama and Biden should be tried as war crimnals.
During the Desert War in North Africa, the British 8th Army tried- very hard- to assassinate Field Marshal Erwin Rommel;
http://ww2warstories.tripod.com/id24.htm
On 18 April 1943, U.S. Army Air Force P-38 Lightning fighters of the 12th, 339th, and 70th Fighter Squadrons (334th Fighter Group) intercepted a Japanese Navy Mitsubishi G4M “Betty” twin-engined bomber over the SW coast of Bougainville and shot it down. Thereby achieving their stated mission objective; the death of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, the architect of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vengeance
In each case, the mission was deemed legal under the laws of war.
(Also, please note that Rommel was nearly taken out by the British Army. No “cowboy” Americans involved.)
Starting a fight does not give you immunity from being a casualty when the other guy decides to finish it.
clear ether
eon
Who cares what the Europeans think. The Germans, who set a record by losing two world wars in less than 30-years are experts on…… nothing. The Brits would be speaking German were it not for those “Cowboy” Americans. Besides,none of the countries of the EU can handle the Islamic problem. Instead of worrying about America, they should probably focus on their problems with radical Islam. If they are not careful, they will soon be under the “vast liberties” of Sharia!
The article from the German “Die Welt” was written by Henryk M. Broder and is supposed to be a persiflage (of what almost all the rest of the journalists in Germany would indeed write). This becomes clear only at the end, where Broder, after proposing Goldstone as head of an inquiry commission, adds that “if he should not want or not be available, another possibility could be the ‘ethics commission’ of [German] Federal Government.”
Broder rocks. He probably has the most finely tuned BS detector in Germany.
Is it too late to give Germany back to the Russians?
(maybe if we added a big enough bribe …)
the telegraph is proamerican , and almost every columnist there is proamerican.the wild west comparision are not demeaning The french quoted are proamerican too
Yes, I’d agree that the editorial line of the Daily Telegraph is pro-American and has been pretty consistently sceptical about Obama. Of the two Telegraph items quoted, one was pretty much in line with quite a few good articles right here, to the effect that the operation was brilliant and achieved a result that all right-thinking people wished for, but that the inability of the White House to present an account of the operation which remained consistent for more than five minutes has merely inspired the conspiracy loons (fringe in the US, but mainstream East of Suez, outside Israel).
As for Tim Stanley’s blog in the Telegraph, I don’t think it was meant to be anti-American, although I’m not sure, since his scribblings are virtually unreadable. Anyway, I suspect Soeren Kern and I are the only two people worldwide who managed to reach the end of Stanley’s blog, so don’t over-rate his influence.
As for the Guardian and the Independent, I am tempted to point to their very limited circulation, too. The only trouble is that most of the few people who do read them are all employed in the MSM, often outside the UK. I am amazed how often the Guardian is cited in US, Canadian and Australian articles, when it has so limited a readership in its home market. Part of the reason is that the last (labour) government in the UK advertised posts in the civil service exclusively in the Guardian, as does the BBC; some local authorities also continue to do so, I suspect. The Guardian’s real threat, however, is only that it is effectively the house magazine of the BBC, which has a much greater reach and which has been tying itself up in knots this week, not wanting to praise the American action, but not wanting to criticize Obama, either.
Nüremburg trials ? they were based on ex post facto laws and established after the felony. so it ewas a violation of the rule of the law.
Christianity allows the killing of the enemy, Eljud, Judith and the wife of the king of the kennites. It is beter a sole man to perish that to a whole people. And it was the wholy ghost taht spoke
The average European, like the average American, is basicly good hearted and would really rather “just get along”.
But, like their American cousins, they are held in contempt by the Soros-supported, liberal agenda-driven media.
I refer to them as Eurotrash (on the continent) and Ameritrash (here in the “colonies”).
Ain’t it time to take out the trash? Starting with George Soros!!!
From the article I come away with, the Lame Scream Media is just as LAME in Europe! The reason for the sudden reverse is, initially they may thought that Obama announced the killing of Gadaffi. You know the guy in Libya!
So does this mean Obama will be asked to return his Peace prize? If he was a real man, He would ship it back dipped in butter!
I am not very worried what Germany thinks of killing UBL. They were mad when we invaded Normandie Beach too, weren’t they.
Anyone who is upset with what has happened, I say SCREWM!
Most of the European reaction is drivel, but the Zeit and Der Spiegel are on to something when they suggest that the killing was an opportunity lost. We have forever lost an opportunity to take and hold the moral high ground in this ongoing saga. Want to see what could have been done? Recall how the Israelis used the Eichmann trial for crimes against humanity to build knowledge and awareness of the horrors of the Holocaust. The same might have been done here to convince a cynical world that we were the victims, not the aggressors. But instead we have acted as if we are ashamed of what we have done. The varying and conflicting stories of bin Ladin’s death; the quick disposal at sea; and the refusal to offer proof all mock the basic message: that we are engaged in a struggle between what we have gained so painfully in Western Civilization and the dark hatreds and violent instincts of a malignant enemy.
I disagree. We would never have gotten any credit for taking the moral high ground, but Der Spiegel would have gotten numerous scandal covers highlighting our imperfect legal procedures based on unassailable evidence produced by HRO, AI, ACLU, etc. And in the Islamic world, our weak horse image would have been confirmed once again.
Classic. And if a French soldier should happen to take out Ghaddafi? Completement different, mon ami!
If we didn’t already have our home-grown leftist loonies we would be collectively scratching our heads over this anger at the killing of a monster. But a quick comparison reveals solid proof that they are everywhere and up to no good wherever they are—scary thought since they didn’t get rid of all the loonies in the Obama administration, just the most vocal and strident ones.
You can say that the Euro reaction is part of the price Americans pay for living on this planet. But it does lend a lot of justification for removing ourselves from Europe completely and utterly. And if, say, a militarily reduced Russia should want to invade Europe we should let them; now that they’re no longer communists they can steal everything I sight without having to pretend they’re doing for worldwide communism.
As for the Arab world: it makes one think that if the entire rotten lot of them were suddenly at the bottom of the ocean the world would be a much, much better place. And it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to put the rest of the Muslims on this planet there with them. On second thought: it might be more humane to put them on the far side of the moon; at least there they would not be polluting the ocean and killing fish.
A popular reaction from Asian papers is either “Stop celebrating because his death won’t stop terror” or the time honored leftist trope about “America created Bin Laden and terror”.
Basically, the kind of nit picking the left would have engaged in if Bush was POTUS when OBL Was killed.
What is wrong with you folk?!!
Why are you taking what a bunch of hacks say, or what comes out of a politician’s mouth and automatically assuming that every European thinks the same way?
This trashing of ordinary Europeans is never-ending here. No matter what you seem hell-bent on thinking, we aren’t anti-American.
We don’t believe that Obama or the NYT speaks for every American. You’d be quite insulted if we did. But we don’t. Ordinary people don’t control the media – so please, give us a break!
“No matter what you seem hell-bent on thinking, we aren’t anti-American.”
I’d say most western Europeans are quite anti-American, though they seem to love us a lot beter when we have a thieving socialist in the White House.
Most Old Europeans aren’t anti-American per se…just selfish and amoral; they see the U.S. as a resource that they don’t fully exploit yet.
These are both pretty sweeping statements about Europeans.
Where do you get your views about the very ordinary people from? Because if it’s from the media, our so-called intelligentsia and ‘opinion-formers’, believe me, they are a million miles away from the norm.
We’ve got exactly the same problems that you have – a liberal-left who have lost the plot. Political correctness gone mad. An inability to challenge fundamental Islam…..in short, we aren’t really so different in where our respective countries are. I can read headlines here and feel an absolute affinity with them because they’re the same issues we have.
I read these comments and it does shock and sadden me because I had no idea how much you seem to loathe us and how skewed – and almost reflexive – I believe your thinking is when it comes to plain, ordinary, everyday Europeans. I truly haven’t seen anything like this type of trashing of Americans in the UK.
We also see that the ancien régime has come back; that the very ordinary people are very ordinary peasants, humble and mute, without voice or vote to counter the sanctimonious elitism of their rulers.
Give us the URLs for Deutscherpundit, Pyjamas Media, and the Paris Examiner…if they exist.
It’s strange that none of the European publications, while showing great concern for the “rights” of Osama Bin Laden, mentioned the rights of the 3000 Americans who died on 911.
Also, the German publication Speigel self-righteously proclaimed that German society was concerned with rehabilitation, while Americans were more concerned with revenge. Good luck with that rehabilitation stuff, I’m sure if we had captured and incarcerated Bin Laden he soon would be singing in the prison choir and knitting sweaters for the survivors of those he murdered on 911.
I would start out off pointing out that everyone who isn’t an idiot hates the Guardian, a rag that doesn’t make a profit (I think it’s funded by a foundation) and has fallen into an odd cryto-antisemitic obsession.
Robert Fisk is also universally hated by anyone capable of tying their own shoes. So quoting those sources doesn’t mean much.
I’m surprised by the German papers. Germany is the home of the only left that is pro-American and pro-Israel, since there are antifascists who still remember the Nazis and the Holocaust… But perhaps theses groups are not mainstream enough to affect newspapers. Perhaps it’s telling that one of them is known as “antideutsch” or anti-German.
Still it’s the only country where you can find demonstrations where leftists are carrying American flags, Israeli Flags and maps of Israel.
One supposes those anti-American rants in Germany are a matter of projection. All societies who have recovered from being Fascist or Imperialist seem prone to project those evils where they are not, both internally and externally, as evidenced by the psychosis of the Red Army factions that were seen in Germany and Japan – people who imagined nazism in totally harmless places like shopping malls and felt these delusions so strongly they were compelled to slaughter innocents and blow up businesses.
I see some of the same illness, in a weaker form, in British anti-imperialism, in the Guardian and Robert Fisk, for instance.
Celebrating a Death?
While the vast majority of Americans are intensely proud of Navy SEAL Team 6 for its successful mission last Sunday and happy, if not universally ecstatic, over its results, Europeans have been largely mute over the mission’s success or demonstrably angry over American impertinence in what they consider a violation of the air space and territorial integrity of a sovereign state and which many contend involved a summary execution of an un-armed man.
There’s no question that Team 6 did indeed infringe on Pakistan’s national boundaries, which boundaries are more porous than America’s southern border, and that nation itself is less a nation than it is a sanctuary for terrorist enemies of the United States–and of Europe.
Whether Osama bin Laden was in fact un-armed or had an AK47 or other weapon in easy reach is still unclear, and irrelevant. What is known is that he was a declared, vicious enemy and his compound was a virtual fortress with high walls topped by barbed wire and that he had armed guards protecting him.
It’s easy to second guess what the SEALs should have done in the heat, the fog, of battle, to Monday-morning-quarterback a perilous military operation since none of us were there, on-site, with those brave men. All volunteers in the service of their country, they were risking their lives to execute a mission deemed critical to America’s–and Europe’s–interests and safety.
Europeans, however, feel free to do just that, to judge the propriety of the assault and to condemn Osama’s killing. . .
(Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=4338)
The decision to kill Bin Ladin was taken before the operation began.
Think about it. They are attacking behind enemy lines with noisy helicopters 100 yards from a huge military compound. Survival probabilities were probably not considered to be high. Maybe 20%.
The operation took 40 minutes and one of the helicopters crashed. If someone managed to fire an RPG to the other helicopters while on the ground then all the Seals would have been dead. And Bin Ladin could have escaped.
Translation: The end of the Obama presidency.
Obama is not stupid he knows what happened in Desert One and how it affected Jimmy Carter.
Mission priority was to get Bin Ladin. And by killing him the mission would be a success even if all the Seals and pilots were killed in the operation.
The mission WAS to get Bin Laden this time, and not let him slip out at any cost. The SEALS knew this, and knew they might not make it out alive.
It was the military’s decision to take out Bin Laden, not Obama’s. If it was left to Obama, appeasement would be flowing forth like flood water. Proof of this is in the constant backtracking of stories and details about how the assault went down.
The military knew they had to finish the job this time, because there might never be another chance.
Well, I guess now we know what it’s like to be Israel…
Europe is terminal: intellectually, economically, and morally.
I`d change “the European Media” for “old European Media”.Media reflects not the thoughts but the feelings of millions of Europeans which are often unfavourd towards America as the rival.The new Europeans communism` liberated are real America`s friends.
It is not just about America.
In 1988 the British special air services ( like the Seals) shot three unarmed Irish Republican Army terrorists setting out to set off a bomb in Gibraltar. In 1995 the European Court of Human Rights ruled that excessive force had been used and their human rights infringed. In Northern Ireland the IRA killed far more innocent people with bombs in relation to population than were killed in 9/11.
It is morally right to kill unarmed terrorists without warning.
I didn’t even bother reading to the end of page 1, let alone pages 2 and 3. No need to – I know exactly what it says without reading them.
The EU – an organisation that can’t even take out one douche-bag in a third world, 7th century dump on a continent that is virtually pre-historic without the US to hold it’s hand and wipe it’s ass. Pathetic. Totally pathetic.
The Europeans abdicated the responsibilty and cost of defending themselves to the US after WWII. That’s the only reason why they can afford their ludicrous welfare systems – they don’t have the cost of defending themselves. The US does it for them. There’ll be green flags flying all over europe by the end of the century – guaranteed. And no, they can’t come to the USA when they need to bail out – we don’t need their weakness and socialist DNA polluting our gene pool. Unlike the original Europeans who came here, who were men and women of action, vision and guts – the current euros are what those poeple left behind – the weak and ineffectual. And it’s showing in spades, now…
But wait a moment. I seem to recall having read elsewhere that the United States are exceptional mainly if not only in their perversity. An Iranian publication? Palestinian?
No. I remember now: it was President Obama during some of his speaking, apology and bowing gigs. Now, the “left leaning” European press, like most of the United States press, is just remembering him as he then spoke. Deep down, they must still love him except for a fleeting perception that he does not seem sufficiently Obama-like. He will likely get back in their pleasure zones as quickly as possible.
“Much has been said about the Christian-influenced West’s civilizational superiority to the Islamic countries. But what is happening in the United States gives a different impression. When Americans celebrate the death of bin Laden with dancing and shouting over loudspeakers, it is horrifying to us [Germans/Europeans]. The bizarre cheers show us that American society is alien to us. …”
This is, of course, in stark contrast to the sober and sympathetic response of the “Arab Street” to every massacre by an Islamic terrorist.
I must agree on one point. The sanctimonious hypocricy of the European left is indeed alien to me.
I still maintain that the predominant leftist Eurpoean view is to deny that anyone wants to do us harm. “Aren’t we all just the same in the end?” That’s a pretty rosy picture of life, but if you don’t stand for something, you will fall to anything. Meanwhile there is a $#!+storm going on, but the U.S. is holding out a great big, expensive umbrella. Can’t we at least take a step away and let everyone get rained on for a while? I also don’t celebrate the man’s death, but I have to admit a great sense of relief that there is one less thug on the street. Captured or killed, only the brave SEAL who went in and made the decision will know exactly why… and that person will also have to live with the blood of another person on his hands. I also didn’t see anyone else step up to the plate. A simple tip of the hat and “thank you” would suffice. Now let’s move on.
To paraphrase Andrew Jackson, The Europeans have made their decision; now let them enforce it!
Seems to me this European hand wringing is the same kind of leftist idiocy that would have had Sharon Tate facing murder charges had she been packing heat that dreadful night in ’69 and ended up bringing to room temperature two or three of the Manson thugs that invaded her home. And not only have to face a murder charge, but no doubt having to deal with police allegations of unlawfully discharging a lethal weapon inside the boundaries of greater Los Angeles County.
Don’t giggle. That kind of stuff is ready to be run by the next radical, left wing judge that gets “shopped” another case brought by your friendly ACLU goon squad.
Juuuust think about it.
Dear America,
Welcome to the club.
Love,
Israel
(Actually, I think under Israeli rules, the shooter would have at least been on report. But it is amazing that WE are the ones accused of “war crimes”, when we are more careful than any European country that was threatened. Hypocrisy, thy name is Europe.)
A German newspaper wants GOLDSTONE to head an inquiry into the actions of Obama? My gosh, who needs satire?
By the way, two German newspapers revived that old “Old Testament justice” canard. Not only is that an unfair portrayal of my Bible, I consider it anti-semitic.
The impotency of Europe in this dangerous world becomes ever more apparent. Britain is decommissioning their last aircraft carrier. Can Europe even finish the fight that they have entered into with Libya? They could not even handle the Balkan problem back in the 1990s. God help us all.
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