The Boorish Liberal at Thanksgiving Dinner
Dear Belladonna Rogers,
Unlike last week’s advice-seeker, I have but one sibling. He’s 58, two years my junior. He hosts Thanksgiving dinner every year because our mother lives in a nursing home near him. He’s liberal and belligerently so.
If I want to see our mother at Thanksgiving — and I do — I have to drive 430 miles from Pasadena to Napa. During Thanksgiving dinner in 2009, my brother asked what I thought of Obama’s stimulus package. I knew we’d disagree bitterly, so I tried avoiding an answer. He persisted like a bulldog until I said I was against it. My wife and I gave specific, fact-based reasons we opposed it. He, his wife and grown children all piled onto my wife and me, trotting out all the liberal bromides against anyone who differs.
The following morning when we visited for breakfast, we were shocked to see he’d posted a new magnet, one that hadn’t been there the night before, front and center on his fridge door:
Both my wife and I took umbrage at such a hostile message intended as an obvious rebuke to our candid replies over dinner.
Thanksgiving 2010 he asked us about ObamaCare, and we calmly said we were against it, offering specific reasons for our opposition. The same pile-on recurred. Our mother has very high blood pressure, and she becomes visibly agitated when we argue. I don’t want to be any part of the cause of her fatal stroke, so I cleared the table, and was again confronted by the insulting fridge magnet. I was so offended I moved it to the far side of the fridge near the floor, and left not long afterward.
Our mother’s now 85, and in very fragile health, and I don’t want another pitched battle when my brother asks me which candidate I support. I can’t refuse to go because it means so much to our mother to be with both her sons.
What to do?
— Pissed in Pasadena
Dear Pissed,
Your brother’s behavior is deplorable. I’d be pissed, too.
In considering your options, imagine a speedometer from 30 to 80 mph, representing six potential approaches at increasing levels of confrontation as you pursue your goal of a politics-free Thanksgiving.
Just in case, though, I suggest arriving at your brother’s house with a few of your own favorite fridge magnets to leave behind as thoughtful gifts if, despite your efforts, your brother is unable to attain maturity by November 24.
Such trinkets are available here for $5 each. They’d be amulets in your pocket –protecting you from evil and providing you with a measure of cheerful confidence as you enter his house. Think of them as good luck charms. Cue Elvis…
For added holiday cheer, I’ve festooned this column with a few fridge magnets you may find comforting as you drive north:
Now for your approaches: starting at a leisurely 30 mph, email your brother that you’d like to talk on the phone before Thanksgiving. Tell him you’re looking forward to it but want to air your political differences beforehand to avoid another debate at the table. “It isn’t healthy for Mother, and it’s not so great for me, either. Let’s discuss whatever questions you have now, so we can keep politics off the table on Thanksgiving.”
If he fails to agree, kick it up a notch: “We’ve had two consecutive Thanksgiving dinners ruined by our political differences. You’ve seen how it upsets Mom when we bicker. For her sake, let’s get it over with now.”
50 mph: “I know you get off on goading me until I tell you what I think, but I’m not playing that game this year. I’m 60 years old, and I’m the one who has to drive 430 miles to be with you and Mom. It’s a pain to make so long a drive knowing the whole way that you’re determined to pick a fight with me.”
They attack us with religious zeal because they believe we are evil and it is their duty to destroy us. Since they are so virtuously battling our evil ignorance, it’s okay in their eyes for them to use any tactic at all. Reason and facts can’t get through their beliefs and feelings, and makes them angrier when you confront them with it. It’s time to start dignifying their provocations with your carefully considered answers. You don’t have to play their silly game.
Only more life experience can reach them. The only hope for them is to be mugged by reality.
Oops, “stop” not “start” dignifying their provocations . . .
Exactly! That’s been the case for some time. It’s good to see that other conservatives have begun to realize it.
Most people can’t refrain from responding to those provocations, because the attacker makes them feel like they have surrendered by not doing so. Liberals are especially childish individuals, so they always punch low.
“The only hope for them is to be mugged by reality.”
That’s the only good answer, I’m afraid. It does eventually work on most them them, if not this guy’s brother. The only thing that matters is winning elections, not wasting your energy arguing down a fool.
They attack us with religious zeal because they believe we are evil and it is their duty to destroy us. Since they are so virtuously battling our evil ignorance, it’s okay in their eyes for them to use any tactic at all. Reason and facts can’t get through their beliefs and feelings, and makes them angrier when you confront them with it. It’s time to start dignifying their provocations with your carefully considered answers. You don’t have to play their silly game.
Only more life experience can reach them. The only hope for them is to be mugged by reality.
Be that mugger. Work out some before Thanksgiving. When he starts in, just punch him in the mouth, then quietly resume eating. He’s your little brother. Don’t take any snot from him.
When liberals believe that WE are evil, that’s called projection.
I would cut right to the chase and follow the last suggestion made in the article. Tell your brother first thing after you sit down at his table — when he does not expect it — that the first political statement he or anyone else makes is the signal for you and your family to leave. Don’t complain, don’t explain, just say it casually. Follow up immediately by talking about some other subject — sports is good, or start telling an anecdote about the drive down. If he or anyone else starts making any sort of political statement later on, you start standing up from the table. If that person then changes the subject or stops talking, you’ve won and can sit back down. Don’t say anything, just up or down. If he or anyone else comments on your starting to stand up after you’ve sat down again, just start talking about something else, ignoring what was just said. If he or anyone else tries to talk politics a second time after you’ve sat back down, just stand up and, no matter what, thank them politely for the meal while you and your family leave. (If you’re mad, you might casually comment that whoever spoke the second time seems to be a slow learner — but don’t try this embellishment unless you can say it in a casual voice, like commenting on the weather). This approach has worked well for me in similar circumstances.
1. Bring several large meringue pies for ‘dessert’.
2. Wait for the liberal jackass braying to begin.
3. Apply the pies vigorously and with enthusiasm to the visages of the brayers.
4. Calmly walk away, never to return or to communicate with them in any way.
In short – cut your losses and have fun doing it.
I particularly like the quotation marks around the word, “dessert.” And I think you would have made a great addition to the Marx Brothers. Just the right touch.
I would lay the “new rules” out in advance of your trip, write to your brother and propose some changes to make the day more relaxing and fun. If a political battle is something he and his crew cannot back away from, offer to divide up the Thanksgiving Thursday and Friday. While older brother is willing to let Mom’s desire to have everyone together take priority, younger sib is not. Who knows? Your Mom might enjoy the opportunity of being the center of attention with one family on Thanksgiving and the other the day after.
The fact is, the world is divided into two kinds of people–those that actually ENJOY political/religion discussions (I confess to being one of these) and those who find BOTH not only uncomfortable but downright offensive. If this is the ONLY AREA of conversation in which Liberal Brother is boorish, I suspect he considers his comments (and family does!) no more toxic than discussing sports. Has no idea you hate it.
I also suspect, if this is true, that he would actually ENJOY a war of the fridge magnets such as you recommend and only get “worse.”
Therefore, I recommend that you follow comment #3 and let us know his response. I’ll bet he had no IDEA he’s spoiling your holiday. Come to think of it, I would ask Mom and let that be guide for all in attendance.
As for ME, I’ve learned over a long life, that it isn’t ONLY politics and religion–you end up with relationships that are individually nourished. I have one long-time friend who are in fact a coujple. Husband LOVES to argue politics when I come because he knows I enjoy it. My conversational relationship with his wife is entirely about either 1) family (we’ve known one another for 50 years) or 2)books we’re reading. And that’s the way life is!! She’s learned over decades that I don’t MIND AT ALL that her husband gets a bit passionate in making his case because for both of us, it’s really not personal–it’s political dialogue.
I have friends I never talk books with–they don’t read, they watch TV and that’s what they want to talk about. Or foodies! I can go to lunch with one daughter and discuss what that dinner was like afterward–with the other, can’t stand being as she says “picky” about food experiences.
My mother, growing up, was very much like Liberal Brother. She was an FDR Democrat, and I swear thought all Republicans were morally flawed.
Know what the unexpected (and very positive!) consequence was of all that anti-Republican discussion at holiday and other get togethers? My two kids, who entered college in 1968 and 1969 respectively were totally INNOCULATED, and as naturaly perverse as kids are–neither were ever tempted by the leftish causes that reigned while they attended. Sounded too much like their political Grandma’a endless arguments!
Now here’s an example IMO of EXTREMISM on the part of people opposite to my love of talking politics. Here where I live, in last week’s election, there was a ballot item about whether or not to pass multiple-use zoning for beachfront properites (i.e. could have a condo with business on first floor, residential above). I innocently commented, “I can’t decide how I’m going to vote on that–what are you–all going to do?”
One of the three, said, icily: “You never ask people how they’re going to vote!”
Ye Gods! This was really an apolitical vote I think, I was just trying to get views of a threesome who had lived at the beach a long time vs my relatively brief residency here.
Is that the modern Emily Post? Never ever ask someone how they’re going to vote?
One of the three, said, icily: “You never ask people how they’re going to vote!”
Eeewww. Some friends.
“She’s learned over decades that I don’t MIND AT ALL that her husband gets a bit passionate in making his case because for both of us, it’s really not personal–it’s political dialogue.”
I hate to be the one to tell you….but…oh never mind. Have a good holiday.
“Is that the modern Emily Post?”
It’s not modern. My motherinlaw, born in 1900, would say things like that, but in a nice way.
“I can’t decide how I’m going to vote on that…”
Then please, don’t vote at all.
You’ve never asked anyone’s opinion on an issue before voting? You would rather that everyone be so afraid of exposing themselves as undecided on an issue that they remain ignorant?
I would rather that ignorant people not vote.
Your brother may not fit the psychopathology profile, given that he lives in Napa where being a liberal is de rigueur.
“Indeed, under careful scrutiny, liberalism’s distortions of the normal ability to reason can only be understood as the product of psychopathology. So extravagant are the patterns of thinking, emoting, behaving and relating that characterize the liberal mind that its relentless protests and demands become understandable only as disorders of the psyche. The modern liberal mind, its distorted perceptions and its destructive agenda, are the product of disturbed personalities.”
In the name of brotherly love, send him this link
I think your brother is using your mother’s illness to beat you over the head with. Despicable! Don’t show up, don’t notify your brother and tell your mother why you are not coming. Let your mother handle your brother.
Either that, or go visit on the weekend before. Spend a whole Saturday with your mom, take her to church/synagogue, maybe take her to a nice dinner. Let her see you and your family in peace.
Don’t ever talk with your brother again. If he ever asks why, tell him honestly what it was that offended you and that unless he wishes to change his boorish behavior, you won’t be seeing him again.
Liberalism of this nature is likely due to deep seated cognitive distortions rendering his world view erroneous and full of fairly tight behavior tunnels that are deeply frightening when he is forced to the wall of the tunnel. It is unlikely that you will fix him. It is highly likely that he will react violently and thoughtlessly to any data that challenges these deeply distorted thoughts.
Just like the depressed patient who globalizes that because one person doesn’t like him, that all people don’t, these poor saps believe that just because one person is poor, the only way to fix it is to spend money at the Federal level, and that if that doesn’t work, then they should fix that by spending more money at the Federal level. And when they mean ONLY, they mean ONLY!!!!!. You will simply get into a repetitive loop with this guy in his current state.
Pity your brother and extend a warm greeting to him and at the same time, redirect him to a topic that is less stressful to his mother. Remember, PITY your brother. It needn’t become an argument if you don’t choose to join in. Try re-direction, if he brings up politics, respond with a question about new wineries in the area. Don’t give up on that tack. PITY your brother. Show him kindness even if you want to explode. He will eventually get tired of this boorishness and if your mother is with it, she may well comment about how nice this year’s Thanksgiving was without all the political fighting.
Or you could take my earlier advice and just not show, and visit your mother some other time.
80 miles an hour sounds very good to me!!!!
Very much appreciated the graduated options, though. It’s a useful way to think about these situations.
Have a great Thanksgiving, everyone!
Whenever I meet a very liberal relative for Thanksgiving Dinner, I usually just keep shoving drinks in his face. They tend to see the world in a better light after they’re loaded.
excellent advice
+1
I tend to think of Liberals as being permanently in that condition.
I disagree with our skilled advise author. Ignore them. It drives liberals crazy to be ignored and to do otherwise just fuels their passion to think how smart they are and how stupid everyone else is. Since all of us have been in this discussion with some liberal, we know that they are not only not well informed and unable to form a coherent thought, they are passionate about their rightiousness. Just laugh and move on. It drives them crazy when that night they realize you were mocking them. Yes, it will take them that long.
Hey Bro: I have some more speeds for you, I learned from 6 brothers.
10mph: When you arrive at his house greet everyone with a big smile and very happy. As soon as that’s over take your bro into a back room for a private conversation. Advise him: 1.Your second childhood has arrived early and that your feeling quite adolescent. As a result you can’t be held responsible for your actions.(That’s a threat of course.)
2. This may work too: Tell him you’ve recently been diagnosed with a terminal illness, (that illness being life and it is terminal). It’s not a lie, he’s your brother.
3. If all that fails, take him back into the room for a real private conversation…
Chief — love the “terminal illness” line. Will have to remember that one!
Thanks Louise: As children we always went for the physical struggle first.
After we tired, then we’d talk about it. As we got older I would attempt to use psychology until I was exhausted, then we’d fight. A couple of my brothers just couldn’t let anything drop. And they weren’t going anywhere until they got their lick in. Of course they are my liberal brothers to this day.
Amazing though, was the peace that emanated from that home for the next few months.
“nickel” is right. It’s hard to not engage with a frothing liberal, and harder still to suppress the compulsion to try and inject reason in his error-filled rant, but just give up the plan to convert altogether. It just ain’t gonna happen. Brush the dust off. And besides, nickel’s right, “It drives liberals crazy to be ignored.” You can always square off, sit straight up, icily stare at the ranting liberal and communicate tonnes more than you could with words. You’re showing intellectual superiority and class, that is. You can also soften your expression and give the occasional pitiful glance toward “Mother” to communicate that your brother needs to re-order his priorities for just one day. When I “find my spine” and close my mouth, I find that the hardest-case liberal runs out of talking points and calms down enough to re-set the dialogue. Just try it. What have you got to lose? It hasn’t worked the other way, and it will give you a new skill, new strength in handling liberals.
To add, your Mother is 85? Just a thought … Maybe each time your brother, or his family, bring up a pressing issue for today, perhaps say something like, “I tire of today’s politics. Don’t you?” Then switch the topic of conversation to your Mom, asking her to recall a memory, or re-tell a favorite story. The elderly possess such hard-earned wisdom, and what a golden opportunity for the entire family to learn that we re-live so many of the same struggles generation after generation, that most of us value the same things in life. We’re knitted together by these common experiences, no matter how much politicians should like to divide us. Make the visit all about Grandma, turn the conversation back to her, honor her life. What a visit that would be!
Just a thought …
Have a wonderful holiday!
I like this idea quite a bit. Thank you, Louise, for your thoughtful, civilized and very positive answer.
I like it, too, and if it doesn’t work I suggest the seeker immediately go to the 80 mile an hour bit in a private conversation in another room.
It’s great being civilized, but we didn’t become civilized without violence.
An occasional reminder can work wonders because we often forget the lessons of former generations.
Let that be a lesson to ya…
They attack, mock, sneer at, whittle away at us in everything they do. They don’t even notice the way the news, TV shows, movies they watch, their everyday conversational devices etc. etc. etc. insult us at every opportunity. There is no safe place. We’re not ever supposed to notice, comment or complain. It’s tiring enough without getting into an actual debate with them.
Nickel has the best advice. But don’t even bother to throw the pitiful glance toward mother, it will just inspire them to “enlighten” mother.
When the first signs of self-righteous masturbat*** exhibit themselves, just grab your glass and leave the room, feign sleep or narcolepsy. If you can’t escape fast enough and they target you directly, laughing it off probably won’t be effective. I recommend grabbing your drink, finishing it and then saying, “You are so right!” as you get up and leave the table to get another. When the liberal is finally satisfied by the sound of his/her own voice, you can slip back into your seat unnoticed and complete your meal. Sadly, this could be awhile, so be sure and have internet access or a ball game to allow you cover for your lengthy absence.
As for me, I didn’t take this advice soon enough. Now, escape is not possible. They have thought and planned before I arrive and they will not be denied. I finally made the decision (my parents are deceased) to skip the family gathering altogether. It is a complete and total boor. I just think of it as a very LONG escape into the kitchen. Sad, yes. But better than the frustration of the encounter.
the main problem is the image of credibility given to liberalism as one tries to be diplomatic– let’s agree to disagree or let’s not talk politics
instead of the cute little fridge magnets why not put up pictures of concentration camps, images of berlin (east and west) in the fifties, satellite photos of the korean peninsula at night…
then when the brother tries to rile up calmly explain the futility of explaining reality to a drone– along the lines of arguing with a moron only brings one down to his level where he has much more experience…
Sorry, mom. We’ll see you after Thanksgiving.
Why?
Tell her.
You get what you tolerate.
Why not visit mom at the rest home any time you want, and avoid the confrontation. Have Thanksgiving in your own home with friends, and family in a peaceful setting. Why set yourself up to be hammered by people that don’t like you. If they did like you, they would respect your political views, and avoid antagonizing you.
I’m a little punch-drunk at the moment, having spent the weekend with a very relaxed, very liberal person, who is quite dear to me, and a part of my life whether I like it or not. BKA democrat dad. My kids love him. They do stuff, so I take my own advice, for the most part, stfu. but I’m punchy and reeling, afterwards. I spent sunday night finishing off a bottle of scotch and watching beavis and butthead. it tastes like paint thinner.
I suppose my first question is: the food? good? worth getting salted with bitterness? just asking.
As a mother, what I want more than anything is for my children to be in good health, flourishing, happy. The second, is for them to get along. Notice- that’s second. I know they are individuals, and I’ve been separating them from wrestling since before they could talk. Your mother is eighty-five. She’s done the same thing her whole life. I know, as a child with a younger brother, the most valuable Mother’s Day present we ever gave her was a complete cross-word puzzled, ripped from a magazine, with a note saying we did it together, sitting right next to each other, without fighting once. That’s the gift that’s framed. At the time, I just thought she was weird, and that we were joking. But now, two sons in, I see how valuable it is to her.
So, ” a soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger.” You’re living la vida Proverbs……
I’d take Belladonna’s advice. She’s really good at this stuff.
Otherwise, you might want to see your mom at the nursing home for lunch, or at breakfast. Must you eat at his house? Must you eat together?
If you are quite wedded to eating at his house, with your mother, when your brother brings up politics, smile, laugh, have a blank look, and simply ignore him and turn to your mother and change the subject. Notice how you didn’t do that before. You made “logical” “reasonable” arguments. You took the bait.Your mother is ill and frail, and you want a new umpire to tell you that you are right, and furthermore- this is how you get to keep your rightnesss, righteousness, and incidentally, win. The advice columnist won’t be there. Your mother is frail. She can’t separate you two hooligans anymore. Logic hasn’t worked. Simply do not fight. Change the subject.
He’s trying to get your goat, triumph in some weak fashion over his older brother, win one for the White House team, prove he’s a real man in front of his wife and kids…any number of things that bring vigor to his attack. You’ve been the older brother his whole life. Nothing, nothing, nothing is more irritating than being patronized by an older brother. Simply treat him like a cub, and you as an elder lion. Swipe the subject away, and change the subject, as if he were a cub, and you are trying to get your nap. You’re getting worked up over fridge magnets. He knows where you live, what sets you off. He’s studied you, for his whole life. You haven’t studied him, not half as close.
Acknowledge that politics are important to him, then turn to his mother, and compliment her. Tell her that you’re so glad that her civic engagement has rubbed off on her kids. or newspaper reading, or whatever she did. You’ve just reminded him that he’s younger, and you’re mom will get a good compliment. Oh, and if she responds- that means she loves you more. at least that’s what he hears. vengefulness tastes better with sugar.
and keep it up, b/c he’s going to try and keep trying. Unfailing politeness and curiousness and kindness render you opaque to harm, in some really basic ways. That’s three different approaches, btw, not a unified front of pleasant.
ari: Your reply (imho) is the winner! Even punch drunk, as you put it, you nailed it perfectly.
thanks. still punch-drunk. had to talk myself out of cheap bottle of vodka last night. the irony is that I don’t drink, except after holidays when everyone else has a good time.
the downside to being polite and curious and kind is that someone will feel comfortable enough to expand on their views, and their history and so on. and, as our ever so helpful tanstaafl has pointed out, they have wretched views and terrible histories and awful habits of thought, and vicious points of view. It’s sort of like “who #OWSed in my head.”
I don’t become friends with vicious people. Honestly, at this point, I’m so tired of dealing with family that I don’t have the stamina to spend time with my friends. I worked very hard to build a pleasant family, and now the not-very-pleasant are enjoying themselves a great deal, nesting in my family’s holiday time. It feels quite ugly inside,that I want lonely old people who love my kids, to go home and eat tv dinners and leave me alone. CSLewis and I are arm-wrestling it out.
My friend and I swore that we would change for next year. We’re both praying for each other, since I doubt we have enough strength on our own, to resolve this. ( similar issues)
My advice was good, but yours is much, much better. I wish I had taken it years ago, now it is too late for the family Thanksgiving table.(also smallbees below and others here get it too).
Look, this is not about politics. This is about narcissism or whatever you want to call it. Well, it is about politics in the sense that being a “liberal” is the alcholol-like courage that makes them act like belligerent drunks. The media and others have convinced them that because they are liberals, they are better and smarter than you. They don’t believe it either so everyone must buy into the lie or their whole sense of self-worth will be exposed as being a fraud.
Hear me and the others as we give you the key to this lock: The boor needs to be acknowledged as being right. He HAS to be right – at all costs. If you want to understand more, look up narcissim and BPD. Understand this point. It is the entire point.
If you want to get through the meal to make your mom happy – then tell him he is right or say nothing. If you can’t do it, don’t go.
I moved to Long Island in 08 and called a cousin I had not seen in 40 years. He lived in a $4,000/mo highrise in NYC. He invited me for dinner. During a lovely visit his wife started bitching about Dick Cheney. I said “OH, I should warn you that I like Cheney, Bush, and especialy Rummy” The conversation waned, I said my goodbyes, and I haven’t heard from those drips sence. Maybe in another 40 yrs?
In the middle of the Clinton/Lewinsky saga one of my co-workers started a diatribe about how the evil Right-Wingers were trying to destroy the wonderful Clinton. I seldom if ever discuss politics either at work or at the dinner table, neither ever gets you anything good but after 10 minutes or so of Carville talking points I’d had enough. I said: “Here’s what a decent man would have done when some overweight valley girl flips her thong in your face. You wait till she leaves, you say “Who was that and who does she work for?” Then you get her boss and your chief of staff in your office. When you find out that the young ladies sponsor is someone you can’t afford to offend you say something on the order of “Make sure she has the best intern experience anybody ever had. See to it that she gets a job with one of our supporters and has a wonderful life, but if I see her in the West Wing again I’ll fire both of you” Then stand up.” Oddly we didn’t talk politics in the office for a couple of years after that.
Stay out of the lion’s den.Take Mom out to dinner at a nice restaurant. Invite your brother’s family to come along. He’ll be less likely to start a fight on someone else’s territory – and if he says no, it’ll be his problem and not yours.
One more Fridge magnet for you:
—————————————
Sinn Fein — Political Wing of the IRA.
Democrats — Political Wing of the IRS.
—————————————
It sounds to me like there’s more going on here than just a difference in politics. Some people greatly enjoy bullying others, and it sounds like the younger brother is one of those. In that case, no amount of calm courtesy and reason will work, and it would be better for the older brother’s family to have a separate Thanksgiving dinner with Mom.
One last bit of advice, from long experience with my father-in-law — always bring good humor, and never let them see you scowl. Laughter and gentle ridicule will get one deeper into an opponent’s head than any chain of logic, list of facts or tit-for-tat ever will. And it won’t spoil dinner.
For example, whenever my in-laws start in on me, I always ask: “Hey, did you ever find that video of the Tea Partiers’ shouting racial epithets at those African-American congressmen? I hear that $100,000 reward is still waiting.”
Then I pantomime deep-sea fishing gestures (casting the rod, hooking a finger into the side of my mouth, flapping hands at my neck like gills). And giggle. Works every time.
When my better half gently backhands my arm, I say “They started it.”
Oh, I love this. Classic with the reel! When I’m in the mood to debate a liberal, I need to use more humor. Usually, I spend most of the time asking them questions, getting to their assumptions (Socratic style). And then all it takes are some well-placed points to poke holes in the argument. To be fair, you can do the same thing with most people supporting either party, but it’s much more fun to do with a ranting liberal. On a side note, most liberals I encounter behave like herding dogs. Their “job” (self-assigned) is to nip at your ankles when you “step out of line.” They’re wired that way, but they can be re-trained with a counter-nip here and there by an “alpha dog.”
You have two years on him, and six decades to mature…
Having said that, if you really want to bug him, go buy fridge magnets of stuff you liked as a kid- Snoopy, and so on. Be really enthusiastic when you give them to him. ” You really were excited over your fridge magnets. Remember when we played Snoopy videos all the time?” or trains, or baseball, or whatever. Or get one from the museum near your house, or something. NEUTRAL, HAPPY, decorative. Love is hard to wrestle with. If you’re loving, he can’t grapple with you as easily.
Be as fakely genuinely happy as you are able. Remember- you reacted to the content. It’s what he’s counting on. If you react to the magnet-ness of the magnet, not the message…..and if you are as loving as you are able to be….it should “heap coals of fire on his head” ( la vida Proverbs. worth a quick read- lots of irritable people in the middle east. it’s the first playbook on dealing with all kinds)(road-tested, reliable, comes with commentaries and supporting essays)(highly recommended, in purely utilitarian, realist terms)
Now, you mention children and spouses. Have you considered what sort of behavior you wish your children to model? What sort of dinner company you wish to keep when you are 85? Well, what sort of behavior does your wife wish to dine with? Ask her. the answer might surprise you. Then, find a way to live up to your wife’s wishes, so that she can dine in peace and comfort. You’ll honor your mother that way, too. She’ “Team Mom” just like your wife, and your brother’s wife.
If he is pretty OWS in the head, you’re children- and his- are eventually going to notice. Be a big enough man that your nephews aspire to be like their uncle, with all the passion of their dad. Seeds take a while to germinate and grow. Years. Be the bigger man for years, however that works, in whatever way you choose.
Damn, you’re good. Please start a second advice column
I’m impressed!
To add, my Dad took the high road when I was growing up. Never mucked it up in the mud with angry folks. It certainly made an impact. I had a much higher opinion of him for being positive — can’t say I turned out as well, but the difference was clear.
Thanks for the compliment, and NOPE. I still don’t see how Belladonna goes from such roiling pain from the letter, to such soothing advice in the column. I’m still stuck at the first letter she braved- I don’t see how to get the dad to the wedding. I’m the friend that chimes in, after all the major lifting has been done.
Belladonna Rogers is really, really, really good at what she does. And she’s so nice and funny we don’t see how difficult her work is. Like swans, you know? Graceful on top, paddling like crazy under the water.
I would say, instead, to use some political jiu jitsu. Just tell him you’re all for Obama’s plans, top to bottom, in every detail. Then let you and your wife present nonsense-laden, OWS-style reasoning for why you believe Obamaism is the greatest, greatest thing ever. Then put a huge OBAMA 2012 sticker (not magnet, a difficult-to-remove) sticker front and center on their refrigerator door. Draw some smiley faces on it. And hearts and rainbows. You may wish to search google for “Obama art unicorn” and give him a good-quality printout in a frame, as an early Christmas present. You could even offer to hang it on his wall, by taking down one of his existing pictures. Exclaim over how happy you’ve been since you finally saw your brother’s point of view, and now can we just eat Thanksgiving dinner in comity and joy over your conversion?
Oh! And then you could pick up somebody at OWS-whatever’s-nearest-you, and take them along with you as your +1 at the Thanksgiving feast. Make sure you ask your new OWS friend what he thinks of Columbus and the early Puritans’ thanksgiving celebration with the Indians. Then tell your brother, “I’m so glad we’ve had this time together. By the way, Punkweed here needs a place to stay for a few days, and I thought it would be so great if he could stay here with you. I mean, we can’t, because we’re having our lawn waxed, and you know how that is. But we just couldn’t leave Punkweed out there all by himself, without a warm hearth to snuggle up to for a real family celebration, plus a few days of R&R before he heads back to the Occupy-Wherever camp. Punk, here’s a few bucks to help you get a bus back to the camp, and my brother will pick up the rest. Well, see you! It’s been the best Thanksgiving, ever!” (Kiss Grandma on the cheek, and off you go.)
My family has the opposite problem, or blessing as the case may be. We’re all conservatives except for one brother. He finally had enough of our political conversations at family events and told us if we wanted to talk politics around him, he was going to stop showing up. It hurt him that his beliefs were ridiculed and mocked and since they are illogical and stupid, he couldn’t defend them.
Being conservatives, we all agreed. We don’t speak about politics at all around my brother.
Instead, we invite him to dinners an hour later than everyone else. We all talk politics until he gets there, and then turn the topic to other things. Works every time!
Good for you, Bonnie. If only more people could focus more on having basic consideration for the sensitivities of others, the world would be a much better place for everyone.
I love it, I love it!!!
My sister told me she couldn’t cheer for the Rangers (during the world series) bc W used to own them. Really??
I’m pretty tight-lipped so I leave the burden on the other guy to convince me of his argument.
And if I don’t agree and he gets indignant, I just say, “Why does my opinion matter so much to you anyway?”
The fatal error here was giving “reasons” for your conservative views. That only riles up the liberal. If you must say you oppose the stimulus confine it to a vague, “I wasn’t into the stimulus” and refuse to enlarge on your reasons. If the relative becomes belligerent, ignore them or pretend to agree with them. As for the frig magnet, ignore completely and don’t let it bother you.
BOTTOM LINE: Do not take the bait. This isn’t about politics. It’s about someone being immature.
These people are not worth one’s time of day. Don’t go there for the holiday. Visit your mother when you can but give these people a huge pass. HUGE not-worth-it category.
After taking the bait too many times in a very similar situation , I asked my lefty nutcase of a brother:
“Is you mind made up on the matter?”
Yes
“Then there is no point in discussing it. Please pass the gravy.”
Thanksgiving.
Um — what is “Thanksgiving” all about? More specifically, to whom does one “give thanks”? And in what spirit must one be in order to give thanks?
For those who don’t know — even if you do not care — the “thanks” in Thanksgiving is given to God. And in order for one to give thanks to another, one must necessarily adopt a spirit of humility, one must be humble enough to subservient himself so as to recognize the need to give thanks, rather than an attitude of entitlement.
And since the whole point of Thanksgiving is a humble response to God, don’t you think that the response should be one befitting to Him? As such, the proper responses to such wrongs and injuries are not resentment and anger toward the offender, but in all humility to forgive such injury and bear wrongs patiently.
Anything less is to mock Thanksgiving, and thereby to mock Him to whom thanks is owed.
Thank you for your sanctimonious drivel. It would seem you missed the part where the advice-seeker’s brother’s actions are instigating stress in their aging mother. Is not this a breach of, “Honor thy father AND thy MOTHER?” Do you think she is honored by her younger son and his family acting in the most un-Christian manner by picking a fight, every Thanksgiving? What comes after turning the other cheek, repeatedly?
Despite me being agnostic at best I still think your answer of ignoring them (or at least not letting them get under your skin) is correct. In the end you will leave the table and house and think and act as you will anyway. They have taken nothing from you. Nothing changed. They didn’t send Guido over to your end of the table with a bat to take out your knees. No harm is done. (Letting people under your skin is YOUR problem, after all, not theirs.) Learn to accept the brother for who he is and love him for that reason.
In my family we use things like this as teaching experiences for our children, to show them full frontal evidence of behaviours that they should not engage in.
Although, my question is: what changed two years ago? Most O’s were excited five years ago, or even four years ago. Then they started dropping away. What happened? Can you ask?
Also, I suppose- do you drive up the day of, or the night before? Where do you sleep? At your brother’s house? Have you ever brought a fruit basket, to thank him for his hospitality? Have you brought seasonal kitchen towels for his wife, for cooking? Do you thank the kid you’ve turfed out of his/ her bedroom?
Are you feeling 100%? I would doubt it. Travel kicks me sideways. I would bet that you are tired, too, to be so easy to rile. Can you mitigate that in some fashion? Being nice to yourself, so that you are not drained, may make it easier to deal with provocations.
Fruit baskets with pineapples in them look really showy. Fabric and craft stores sell kitchen towels for inexpensive- for teenage girls- earrings and trendy socks are always appreciated, for teenage boys- AXE works from age 10 to 25.
“Disarming kindness” is usually exactly that: disarming hostilities.
best of luck. it’s got to be really annoying having a visit with your mother spoiled by a bystander.
Long ago in another lifetime, I wrote an article with the working title “How to Win a Half-Assed Argument.” Don’t remember much of it, but two things seem to apply. One, say, with a big smile, “You may be right.” Guaranteed maddening.
The second might be worth some thought. As I listened to people, I heard over and over that people have half-assed arguments when there’s something in the wings so big they don’t dare fight about it. A half-assed argument vents those emotions. I’m wondering if your brother has some unresolved issues about being the one near your mother all these years, the one who gets the middle-of-the-night phone calls. It’s hard being that sibling. Maybe he needs some stroking. It’s terribly hard to be supportive of somebody who’s behaving badly, I know. But what you’re putting up with is terribly hard, too.
you’re so right. My great-grandmother spent ten years in a nursing home, near one daughter, and then the other. It was hard all around. She had raised very loving, very close daughters, though. I think it drew them together, b/c they shared the emotional burdens. My husband’s grandmother moved into one daughter’s house, and then another, with full-blown alzheimer’s. The burdens of that were like boulders dropped on leaky rafts.
There probably are any number of long-simmering arguments that turn on that silly little bit of plastic stuck on the fridge.
“The following morning when we visited for breakfast, we were shocked to see he’d posted a new magnet, one that hadn’t been there the night before, front and center on his fridge door:”
My $.02:
Compliment him that all his intellectual capacity fits on a kitchen magnet. Get mom over to read it and laugh out loud pointing out the stark stupidity of it and then say out loud a parody.. “Silence Jew lies. National socialists for change.” Pinch his cheek in front of mom, and his family, and laughingly say, “You always were a brown shirt at heart.”
However, despite what I would say, you should pull your brother off to the side and tell him you love him, but you’re tired of the politcal baiting and abuse… you didn’t make the long drive for his entertainment.. and for mom’s sakes he, and his family, should heel. If they cannot do that, tell him then once mom passes, so goes the family. You shouldn’t burden yourself with relations who have chosen a quasi-relgion over blood and/or simply cannot show a minimum of decorum for a family event.
My folks (Dad is 88, Mom is 84) have a hard rule: There will be no discussion of religion or politics at family gatherings, period. No argument, no exceptions.
If anyone breaks the rule – and my most liberal sister has tried a time or two – Dad barks at us that, no matter how gray and middle-aged we are, no matter how old he may be, he’s still our father, and when we’re under his roof we’d still damn well better do as we’re told.
He’s a hell of a great old man.
@ Animal:
Seconded!
Show up a couple of days early, break Grandma out of the nursing home, and take her to a nice dinner. Explain why you won’t be at Thanksgiving dinner.
Then take him out back and kick the snot out of him.
The first thing I see here is a feeling of obligation to the younger sibling.
1) ask yourself, What do I owe him?
in the absense of a reasonable answer the next step is,
2) why do I feel obligated?
If you are using the Thanksgiving weekend as a crutch and sliding in that way to visit your mother, then clearly, the argument is the price you must pay for that easy solution.
3) Can I visit mom under other circumstances?
if you determine that as a viable option, deny your younger sibling the opportunity to bait and taunt you.
In other words, unless your mother is demanding your presence at your brother’s house for Thanksgiving, visit with her in a better venue under better circumstances and avoid your brother’s home. When he asks why you don’t show up, TELL HIM, and pull no punches. When (yes when) he acts surprised by your answer and starts to make excuses, Hang Up / Walk Away – Do NOT Listen!
Life is short, and no amount of clever retorts and sober facts are going to make progress or even be heard. Simply say “I agree, Bro. Let’s eat.”
Clearly a form of bullying on your brother’s turf – the lowest form of life to manipulate family. To let him get away with it is a submission to evil. The simple solution is to pay for your mother to visit you if capable every other year, and to not invite the brother or family. Write them off.
If not possible for your mother, tell your mother you will see her on Friday at a nice restaurant in Napa. Do it nicely and politely, but firmly tell her your mother you have no desire to associate with your brother again until he makes dramatic changes, or has a personal epiphany of how pathetic he is.
And liberals are the most classless people on the planet as attested to by OWS – a perfect caricature and a fitting commentary of the end result of progressive politics. The absolute bottom of the dregs of humanity.
Start winning the arguments. Decisively! He may quit arguing when he knows he will be destroyed in front of his family.
This won’t help much, because it seems nothing will dissuade the boorish brother in this case – but here is one of my life experiences: my brother-in-law, who is liberal, used to be a relatively frequent visitor to our house. He would camp out on our couch, and for the most part, I didn’t mind – except he insisted on starting political discussions, managing to put on an air of intellectual superiority while being intentionally insulting. For the most part, I kept my mouth shut.
One day, however, I decided I had had enough. I contradicted him, backing my position up with cold hard facts. He was outraged. He stood up (the better to tower over me) and began shouting. When I answered, it got even worse. He tried to shout down my responses so no one could hear me – and I stood up and responded in kind. Another family member finally stepped in to diffuse the situation. I sat back down, but he was red-faced and sputtering.
A week or so after he left, he announced to the family that he would no longer visit our house unless and until I moved out. That lasted for about three years until he broke down and visited us again – but there been no overnight stays since then. And he knows I won’t take his BS. Now he restricts his rants to the internet where I can ignore them.
I’d like to suggest a “90mph” soulution… cut the miserable bastard out of your life.
My family is full of some pretty awful behavior, including but not limited to this kind of boorishness. A few years ago I made a new rule for myself: if I wouldn’t tolerate this treatment from a friend I won’t tolerate it from someone else just because they happen to share some DNA with me.
I simply cut the offenders (pretty much my whole family) out of my life, and I’ve never been happier. I spend holidays with friends now, people I love and actually enjoy seeing. It turned Thanksgiving from a day I’d dread all year to something I look forward to.
I’d just like to comment on the comments. There seems to be a lot of “liberals are stupid, smelly and evil” in this thread. They are not all any of those, just as conservatives are not all “stupid, smelly and evil”, which you read of liberal websites. There are plenty of stupid, smelly and evil people on all sides of the political spectrum and dismissing their arguments with such ad hominem attacks is lame.
That said, the difference in behavior between the OWS people and the Tea Party in public places could not be more different. I just don’t think it fair to paint every liberal as an OWSer.
Oh, and the boorish behaviour by the liberal brother hosting Thanksgiving could just as easily be a boorish conservative brother. Think to yourself about all the people you know who are conservative – at least a few of them are boorish and would be just as frustrating. Sometimes, those boorish folks will offend even when you agree with them!
I can honestly say that I’ve never known a conservative or libertarian who brought up their political beliefs in an inappropriate venue. In fact most of the conservatives I know have quietly withstood being called stupid & evil rather than contribute to ruining a get-together. The “politics everywhere, all the time” mentality does seem to be overwhelmingly a leftist phenomenon.
Good advice, Ms Rogers. Also good use of the word “festooned” which always gives me a chuckle and reminds me of Dave Barry.
The LW should print out your list and take it with him.
I got a different opinion on how to deal with this issue.
I refuse to avoid any argument thrown out by my liberal family members (who will OCCUPY my house for Thanksgiving because doing it at their house costs them money). My mother is a hard core Marxist, my brother is a federal beaurocrat, my British sister-in-law is a Socialist, and it goes on…
I used to avoid what they had to say because I was busy earning a living and raising a family. However, since Obama became President, I came out of my stupor. I have spent my idle time educating myself on what is really behind the Global Warming and Green Energy agenda,what the New Deal really did to America, the corruption of persons such as Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, Barack Obama, and on and on. I am armed with information, not propaganda or talking points thrown out by the MSM and regurgitated by my beloved kinfolk.
After the last two Thanksgivings, the OCCUPIERS that are my family dare not even bring it up.
Knowledge is Power.
There are only two kinds of liberal. (1)Power Seekers, the elites numbering only in the thousands, who would sell their country down the river for short term gains of power. Power Seekers are all liars. NO EXCEPTIONS.
(2) The Dupes, numbering in the tens of millions, easy to fool people who believe the lies of the power seekers.
Any person armed with FACTS can have a lot of fun at the expense of the dupes.
Tell them this… “You are a morality masturbator!”
Then explain…
The only morality progressives know is the simple-minded siren song of equality, which is by no means morality, it is sheer laziness masquerading as virtue. True charity is personal, not collective. Personal morality is hard, which progressives reject. Instead, they want the easy way out, by adopting a pretense, a lazy vicarious excuse for morality. Progressives want to feel good while letting the State enforce their collective morality for them.
Progressives are nothing but morality masturbators.
I’m telling you, it’s long past time for conservatives to fight back with language. The left has known about the power of language, and has used with tremendous effectiveness their memes and slogans perpetrated by the Old Left Media. Why do you think Marvin Minsky is such a hero of the left?
FIGHT BACK!!! The best way to skewer them with language is to create and use to excess any phrase or idea that simultaneously degrades them, shames them, and ridicules them.
This is WAR, ladies and gentlemen!!! Are you going to stand up and fight, or are you going to surrender? It’s up to you!
KEEP IT SIMPLE.
ASK HIM “WHY DO YOU WANT TO HEAR MY OPINION IF YOU ALREADY KNOW WE WILL DISAGREE?”
or ASK HIM ” WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT I THINK ABOUT THIS” or ask “WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO YOU THAT I EXPRESS AN OPINION ON THIS, ESP. IF YOU KNOW WE WILL DISAGREE?”
or ASK HIM ” WHY DO YOU FEEL IT NECESSARY TO TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THIS ISSUE?”
If you want the illogical , emotional, immature, childish liberal to shut the hell up you have to get them to question their own MOTIVES.
( You will never, ever, ever get them to question their opinion, facts be damned, so don’t even try; for liberalism and all its sibling “isms” is simply a religious belief system. They just believe, that is all there is to it).
Do not question their opinion (you are simply wasting your time; you will have better luck speaking to a stone); but by questioning their motives for starting an argument or as to why he feels he MUST tell you his opinion or why he must elicit an opinion from you – one in which he KNOWS he will disagree with – you force them to look inward and question his own motives; you will force him to question himself. And this they are loathe to do !!
He will shut the hell up real quick (for, when forced to look inward, he does not like what he sees).
A liberal’s political world view – typically based on emotion and totally devoid of or contradicted by facts – is a manifestation of their anger and frustration with their station in life; basically they are unhappy and feel ignored or not properly RESPECTED for their INTELLECT.
(Thus the truly bizarre spectacle of uber rich Hollywood actors, who are millionaires because they had the freedom to pursue their own interests,
yet, promote, encourage and support totalitarian, murderous political ideologies that are totally devoid of individual rights and human dignity).
By engaging you in an argument, they are forcing you to listen to and notice them, and in particular, for you to notice their intellect. Of course, you see their arguments have zero intellectual substance, because they are based purely on emotion and are a manifestation of an inner, deeply ingrained sense of worthlessness.
Liberalism, in an otherwise informed adult, is truly a mental disorder (though it can exist in those who are simply totally naive – useful idiots, as Lenin would say – or just plain ignorant folks).
In our extended family, it became necessary two decades ago to go to a no politics rule at family gatherings. It was both necessary and it worked. However, I have no real barking moonbats in my extended family. A couple of males who are wastes of protoplasm married in, but that is a personal and not a political matter.
From the situation described, it would seem necessary to start at no less than 50 mph, and be ready to floor it with afterburners kicked in if necessary. The separate visits to your mother are the next step, and developing an understanding that we are in reality two hostile, separate, and incompatible nations inside one set of borders and you don’t have to deal with the bugger outside of concerns for your mother. And after she is gone, there is no need to be involved with them at all. Dealing with those who are no longer our countrymen will happen later.
Subotai Bahadur
Absolutely James!! I live in Wisconsin and Republicans/Conservatives cannot have any kind of an event that has been advertised that there isn’t a flock of Dem/Lib morons outside with signs picketing and chanting. I take that back. They didn’t picket our Christmas party last year.
There seem to be a myriad of people who seemingly pop out of the ether, sign (or drum nowadays)in hand to make us walk a gauntlet to our objective. This has been going on for years. Right now it’s worse because they get big burly people (and that’s just the women; for the men add mean-looking)for intimidation purposes.
I have never seen Republicans/Conservatives act in such a way.
Sorry, I got off topic, but James’ answer seemed to me to need reinforcement although we’re pretty much singing solos to the choir here.
I’m late to this party but should like to recommend democrat-stupidity-bingo. Print two cards featuring two slightly differing lists of the trite arguments, sayings and accusations you know you’ll hear, and take your card from your pocket and cross off each example of silliness each time you hear one; make a contest with your wife, and then, instead of fuming, you’ll look forward to each idiocy and treat it with the correct response: a condescending chuckle.
I would just agree with everything he says. Tell him you’ve seen the light and will be voting for Obama next year.