So You Want To Own a Gun
PJ Media actually hit me with a pretty tall order with what appeared to be a simple suggestion for an article: a step-by-step process for those who know absolutely nada about guns yet want to arm themselves.
My immediate response — “Sure, I’ll get right on it” — was tempered roughly .00093 nanoseconds later by the realization of the task ahead of me.
Getting a gun — especially the first one — is a pretty big deal.
For those of us who grow up in “gun cultures” where firearms are merely another tool and fact of life, getting your first gun may consist of getting a pint-sized .22-caliber single shot rifle almost as long as you are tall when you are a child. It is a simple and expected rite of passage that is a mark of growing expectations, trust, and new-found maturity.
We’re generally accompanied by an experienced and patient relative — a father, grandfather, aunt, or older sibling — and the time we spend with those first firearms fills us with nostalgia in later years. The adventures spent afield plinking at cans and paper targets or hunting is remembered as much or more for the bonding and the fellowship as it is for the experience of shooting a gun itself.
Over time, if we have good and patient instructors, we learn and apply the rules of gun safety religiously, develop an appreciation for the joy of marksmanship, and find a reverence and respect for nature that those who choose to remove themselves from the circle of life will never know. It is the sort of upbringing I experienced with my father. It is similar to the stories captured by fellow North Carolinian Robert Ruark in The Old Man and the Boy, his much-loved classic.
For those of us who come into knowing firearms this way, guns are pleasant touchstones connecting the past, present, and future. Many others have found similar if more transient first impressions about guns at summer camps or with scouting or similar youth groups, and they either chose to pursue their passion later in life or to hold the experiences as a fond memory.
Unfortunately, as our culture urbanizes and suburbanizes, and woodlands and fields fall prey to mall sprawl and McMansions, the first impressions many of us get of firearms don’t come with gentle guidance. All too often, it comes through the crime reports on the evening news, the bloodied visages of victims of a tyrant’s military oppression, or the heart-rending stories of suicides, murders, and accidents. This is compounded by ever-more-bloody Hollywood entertainment and video games that promote the most shocking and puerile use of weapons imaginable. We’ve become acculturated to view guns as malevolent occupying entities that have the power to thrust bloodlust upon us simply by picking them up, or as booby traps that will go off unexpectedly at the slightest touch. As a result of this cultural brainwashing, it is sometimes more difficult to get adults to act rationally around guns than children.
Despite these manufactured fears, gun ownership in the U.S. is now at its highest level in history. Obviously, even the saturated biases of media aren’t all influencing.
So you’re interested in getting your first gun. Where should you start? First, you need to know what you plan to do with it.
Unfortunately, many first-time shooters feel pressured into buying their first firearm by the circumstance of fear. When I worked behind the gun counter as a salesman at a sporting goods chain, many of my first-time customers were young couples that had recently experienced a burglary or a similar “wake-up call” when a crime shattered the illusion of safety they had in their neighborhood.
This is not the best time to to buy a weapon. When you’re emotional, you tend to latch on to the first thing that might possibly provide something that approximates a good answer to your problem. That leads to buyer’s remorse. Nevertheless, if you have reason to fear an immediate crime from a specific source, just about any firearm is better than none.
In this specific unfortunate circumstance, I would try to guide the customer to a reasonably priced weapon that provides a balance of defensive firepower, practical accuracy, and user safety. At the time and in my long-gun-only chain, that choice was often either a .410 or a 20-gauge “youth and ladies” shotgun. The specific caliber, action, and configuration depended upon the specific characteristics of the users.
I tended to steer physically infirm or petite shooters towards the .410 because of the reduced recoil and lighter weight frame. I have a friend who is 6 feet tall and 240 pounds man and has severe carpal tunnel syndrome. He can’t hang on to a gun with any noticeable recoil. The .410 would be the better option for him or for many people with similar maladies. I typically recommended the 20-gauge for other users, as it would provide an adequate mix of stopping power, inherent accuracy, and safety. I’d then try to tailor the ammunition to their specific living arrangements. If they lived in apartment buildings or densely packed urban housing, I’d generally suggest larger “game load” shot sizes used for hunting rabbits. If they lived in the suburbs, where there is a little more of a space buffer between homes, I’d recommend lower velocity duck hunting or turkey hunting loads. Unless a couple lived alone (no kids or pets) in a rural area, I almost never recommended the “conventional wisdom” defensive loading of buckshot, as the stout recoil, deafening indoor blast, and risk of overpenetration was too great of a risk.
Fortunately, most people won’t find themselves in such a stressful position when contemplating their first gun purchases. Instead, they will be able to go find out what is best for their needs in a more relaxed and contemplative manner.
It returns to that first essential question: What do you you want to be able to do with your gun?
Are you going to buy it and a box of ammo and stick it in the back of the closet for “just in case”? Or are you going to buy a gun because shooting looks like a lot of fun? Do you intend to shoot socially, maybe even in some sort of shooting sport or competition? Are you looking at weapons because of an uncertain economic future? Are you a fledgling collector looking for a historical piece? Are you fascinated by marksmanship?
Congratulations! Any or all of these reasons (and hundreds more) are great reasons for starting down the path to gun ownership, which we’ll begin tackling in more detail in the next installment.
Also read:
Overpenetration is a risk? I would think it a desirable feature.
Not in an urban area. It’s called “lawsuit liability”.
Most people, including the majority of gun owners, have no idea of how penetrative most firearms ammunition is. For instance, most centerfire handgun rounds will penetrate typical wooden construction at close range. This means that inside a typical single-family home, with 2×4 framing and hollow-core walls (wood outside/plasterboard inside), any bullet that hits a wall will probably go right through it. Even sheetrock, or blown-in insulation, doesn’t help.
Some of the more emphatic pistol calibers (anything with a muzzle velocity over the speed of sound, 1,086 feet-per-second) will go through two or even more such wall sets. Back in the “old days”, we used to test pistol loads by “baffle-box” shooting, firing the weapon into a long box containing 7/8″ thick pine boards, set 1″ apart. The more “baffles” the bullet went through, the better, was the assumption.
The old .30 Mauser (known as the 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev today, and yes it’s still around) would go through 10 or 11 baffles, as would the .38 Super Auto and the heavier .38 Special loads, similar to the modern .38 +Ps. The 9 x 19mm (Luger/Parabellum/NATO) would go through 8 to 9, and the standard .38 Special and the .45 ACP would punch through 7. Even the .32 and .380 ACP would go through 5 or 6, putting them head-to-head with the old blackpowder .45 Colt revolver and the .44-40 Winchester. The .22 Long rifle was good for 4, and the lowly .25 ACP would still get to at least 3.
Magnum revolver rounds generally managed 12 to 15, regardless of caliber. Rifle rounds, even low-velocity (for rifles, that is) numbers like the .25-20 or the .30 Carbine would generally punch through at least that many, if not more. High-velocity rifles, like the .308, went even farther. The .223 (5.56 x 45mm) is a bit of a quandary; the old 55-grain bullet tends to break up after about seven or eight baffles, but the more modern 70-grain goes through a dozen or so pretty consistently.
As for buckshot, 0, 00, or even No. 1 or No. 4 will reliably duplicate the behavior of .32, .380, or .38 Special pistol slugs, going through five to seven baffles. This means that at close range, any of the above will penetrate a typical wall.
You really don’t want that in-town. In most jurisdictions, even with “castle laws” & etc., in a defensive shooting situation, you’ll have enough legal problems if you hit the assailant who was threatening you. You don’t want to know what kind of trouble you’ll be in if your round goes through your wall, and then your neighbor’s, and hits somebody next door. And do you really want to risk harming an innocent bystander?
As to how to solve the problem, in shotguns, regular “game-sized” loads of No. 6 or No.7 shot, or even light “trap” or “skeet” loads, are more than effective enough at typical defensive shooting ranges. Check your house; how many rooms are more than twenty feet across? (In my house, the answer is, exactly none are wider than fifteen feet.) At seven yards and under, the shot charge from small-shot loads hasn’t had time to expand much before it hits; this means that it acts a lot like a single, large projectile.
Inside the body, it’s a different story. The shot tends to “disperse” rapidly, causing damage a lot like a small fragmentation grenade going off. Having attended autopsies of people shot in this way, I can personally attest to the fact that the target’s innards look like ground meat with a side order of tomato paste. The technical term for this is a “rathole wound”, by the way; little hole outside, very big mess inside.
If a small-shot load hits a wall, it will generally blow a hole in the plasterboard, and then be stopped cold by the wood outer wall. That’s the kind of performance you want in town. You can always patch the plasterboard and paint over it.
For pistol rounds, the best choices are “pre-fragmented” projectiles like the MagSafe or Glaser; basically bullet jackets of the appropriate caliber full of small shot with a plastic “plug” up front. On impact, they go in and burst. They are specifically designed not to go through walls.
Hollow-point pistol bullets may or may not reduce penetration. If they expand, as intended, the greater frontal area will slow the bullet down faster. But, if the hollow tip gets plugged with wood or plaster (and I’ve seen this happen), the slug will act exactly like a solid, round-nosed bullet, and penetrate just as far. The hoped-for reduced penetration, BTW, is why police departments began issuing hollow-point ammunition in the 1970s. They were less worried about “increased stopping power” (a myth we’ve since buried, anyway) and more about possible liability lawsuits.
Rifles should generally be avoided in the house. Trust me on this one. I’ve only had one AD (Accidental Discharge) in my life. It was a .30 Carbine that had a stiff safety, and one day while function-testing it, when I was releasing the safety (a flipover lever in the front of the trigger guard), my finger slipped past it as it went “off”- and landed on the trigger.
KABANG.
Since I always keep the muzzle pointed at the ground while doing such things, the 110-grain full-metal-jacket slug plowed a divot in the soil. After reapplying the safety, unloading the weapon, and collecting my wits, I probed with a stick and my pocketknife to find the slug. In soft, moist earth, it had entered at a 45-degree angle (due to the way I was holding the weapon), and ended up nine inches below the surface. Or in other words, it went through over a foot of earth, along the hypotenuse, so to speak.
Now imagine something with that kind of penetrating power being fired inside your house. Even if you hit your target, there’s no guarantee the slug won’t go right through it, through the wall behind it- and through your neighbor’s wall. And whoever is in line with it, in his house, behind that wall.
Hollow-point bullets are not much help in rifle calibers in this respect. Most such are designed for hunting, and are thus “controlled expansion” types, intended to expand but hold together to drive deep into a large animal’s vitals. That sort of penetration is the thing you absolutely do not want in a defensive shooting situation “in-town”.
Things like that should give you a healthy respect for the penetrative capabilities of firearms. They scare the heck out of me, I assure you. And this is what I used to do for a living, as a police crime-lab ballistics tech. (Now medically retired.)
cheers
eon
Well put eon.
“And this is what I used to do for a living, as a police crime-lab ballistics tech.”
That explains much what I wondered about you. Quick question: What is your opinion on .45 ACP hollow point as a home defense round? This has been an ongoing topic with some acquiatances of mine.
The .45 ACP hollow-points, like the old Speer 200-grain “flying ashtray”, may or may not expand reliably in flesh at the usual .45 velocities (in the 850 feet-per-second range). If they don’t, they’ll act like a round-nose 230-grain full-metal-jacket GI load, penetration-wise, which isn’t a good thing.
The lighter 180-grain HPs have a better reputation for reliable expansion, as they leave the muzzle going a bit faster (around 950 FPS). Most will consistently expand to about .60 caliber in flesh, and penetrate about 8 inches or so. I’ve tested the 200s and 180s in ballistic gelatin, BTW; it’s a more reliable predictor of performance than sides of beef or wet newsprint.
The important thing to remember is that penetration figure. Years ago, the FBI established 10 inches as the minimum penetration they would accept for a pistol round, which was the same as their minimum figure for rifle rounds. I’m still wondering why. A rifle needs high penetration for barrier-defeating capability (in the hands of a sharpshooter, for instance), but a pistol round is generally used where you want to keep potential OVER-penetration in mind (In the Bureau’s case, in a hostage situation).
On most people, even “big” people, the vitals are rarely more than 6 to 7 inches “inside”. Granted, 10 inches will get to the heart and lungs from any angle, but from most angles it will also go out the opposite side unless the bullet has a really abominably bad route (hitting bones, etc.). (Keep in mind that even on people with a “spare tire”, the vitals are in the upper chest, not down by the beltline.)
The Bureau adopted the full-power 10mm Auto with a 180-grain HP leaving the muzzle at 1200 FPS, and immediately found that they had a round that would go right through a hostage-taker at close range and endanger any hostage in the line of fire. Why? It just didn’t expand, and therefore acted like a full metal jacket.
In the end, they sensibly went to first the 9mm, and then the .357 SIG, both loaded with lightweight hollowpoints (about 124 grain or even lighter )at high velocities (1250 to 1350) to ensure rapid expansion. They only go in about 7 to 8 inches, but expand to about .50 caliber, both of which is (if you’ll pardon the expression) close enough for government work.
The velocity factor can be tricky. Generally, the faster a bullet goes, the higher its penetration, BUT if it has a hollow-point designed (correctly) for rapid expansion, the extra kinetic energy from its “airspeed” at impact gets used up mechanically, opening up and mushrooming that bullet’s nose by overcoming the tensile strength of the lead in its core and the alloy in the jacket, if any. (I’m trying to keep this simple; the actual equations give me a headache, even with a computer to crunch the numbers.) In short, fast=good if it’s a hollowpoint that works as advertised; not so good if the bullet design doesn’t do what it’s supposed to (as seen with the 10mm).
Generally, if you have a bullet that consistently expands on impact and goes in 8 inches or so, it will get the job done in a defensive shooting situation. And it’s less likely to go on through and hit something you didn’t intend to destroy.
Overall, the .45 with the lighter hollowpoints is a decent choice, combining good hitting power with lower penetration. I’d avoid the heavier hollowpoints on penetration grounds.
For the record, at various times my duty arms included the .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, and 9mm. But most of the officer-involved shootings I dealt with in southeast Ohio were with 12-gauge shotguns; most departments instructed their officers that the sidearm was a backup to the shotgun, not the other way around. And a lot of them loaded it with a load of No. 6 up first, backed up by No. 4 buckshot.
Those that didn’t use the small shot “up the spout” usually had a slug load first in line. The logic being that they would be shooting at a single target, at close range, and aiming at it, intending to get a high-center torso hit. Either way, the shotgun would generally get the job done, and was less likely to over-penetrate than most pistol rounds. I still think that’s a good, and safe, policy.
cheers
eon
This is all too much. On our farm it’s a police riot shotgun with double aught buck and a 5 shot chamber. My wife can handle that. As backup is her choice of a 20 gauge pump loaded with five 00 buck and or a 38 special snub nose agent. Should I be home, my choice is the Yugo SKS 10 round clip (7.62x39R) with 2 more stripper clips in my pocket. Why, because if you get that far you’ve killed my dogs, so then it’s war.
Gun owners need to also consider what would happen to their hearing if they unleashed some full-house magnum loads in a small confined area. The first time I shot a .44 magnum was outside out of a revolver with a 7.5 inch barrel. I was too macho yo think I needed hearing protection. After just one shot my hearing was about two thirds gone and there was a loud ringing in my ears for around two hours after that one shot. I can’t imagine what it would be like in a house or an automobile.
allred;
Hearing damage from any sort of high-decibel, sudden-onset sound is possible, and dangerous. That’s why I’ve worn hearing protection, muffs, earplugs, or both together, from childhood when shooting or even working around machinery or power tools. One of my uncles was a carpenter by trade, and ended up wearing hearing aids in both ears due to the noise of circular saws, bandsaws, etc. And no, he wasn’t a shooter.
Plain , ordinary foam earplugs can be bought anywhere. They’re cheap, and disposable, and at least give you a bit of insurance against hearing damage. The “Lee-Sonic Ear Valve” plugs you can buy where you buy guns and ammunition are better. Best of all is a pair of heavy sound-reducing muffs over a pair of ear valves. If you intend to do a lot of shooting- or even just work in a noisy place like a workshop with power tools- invest in a pair of “Wolf’s Ears” electronic sound-dampening earphones.
That ringing sound may never entirely go away; I have it, not from shooting, but due to a bout of rheumatic fever I had at age 4. I’ve made a point of using hearing protection all my life to keep it from getting worse. Never mind shooting; I use plugs and muffs when I’m using my Testors/Aztek airbrush to paint camouflage on a 1/72 scale airplane model, because my W. R. Brown 40 PSI air compressor is a noisy little bugger.
Protect your hearing. Keeping what you were born with beats having to use artificial help.
cheers
eon
“In the end, they sensibly went to first the 9mm”
Sensibly is not a word I would associate with the 9mm. This round does not have the expansion to stop once it enters. I have seen, and replicated, this round go completely through and still remain semi-intact upon exiting. This is with standard premium, off the shelf, FMJ’s. It’s just too fast and small of a round to expand completely upon entry.
I’m sure you have tested this round to death. I have only what I have seen and experienced. In my opinion, experience trumps science.
I do give it one thing. The rounds did make a nice grouping.(on the other side of the intended target)
Main reason I laugh when law enforcement proudly shows and talk about their 9mm’s.
So the advice changes in regions of the country/world that have stone and masonry instead of light construction?
If you’re in an area where older types of construction predominate, you’ll probably find that most pistol-caliber rounds won’t penetrate structural materials. Rifles will; the .308 (aka 7.62 NATO) will shatter cinderblocks at ranges under 100 meters. The older .30-06 with the 180-grain bullets will do it at 250-300.
Actual stonework will stop most small-arms rounds, if it’s more that 6 inches (15cm) thick. According to one of my old manuals, 3 inches (7.5cm) of broken cobble (gravel) will break up 5.56mm ball, and 4 inches (10 cm) will do the same to 7.62mm NATO. By comparison, it takes about a foot (30cm) to stop a .50 caliber (12.7 x 99mm) Browning HMG bullet (probably the 750-grain at 2,800).
While this might mean that heavier calibers are usable for close-in defense, don’t forget the possibility of ricochets. A bullet hitting a foot-thick wall of mortared fieldstone might break up on impact; then again, it might not. And depending on the angle of incidence, its angle of reflection might be right back in your face… or in the direction of a loved one.
Once again, the best bet is probably a shotgun, with small shot. Even if they ricochet, they will be less likely to do serious injury, unless they hit someone in the head, upper chest, or eye. This doesn’t mean they WON’T injure, or kill; just that the probability is lower than with a solid slug moving at pistol or rifle velocities.
Kinetic energy always has the last word.
cheers
eon
“Rifles will; the .308 (aka 7.62 NATO) will shatter cinderblocks at ranges under 100 meters. ”
-and beyond; a .243 (made on the .308 case) will punch holes at that range in 5/16ths mild steel plate.
eon; Muddy Cross;
1/4″ boiler plate at approx. 25 feet: 44 magnum; cast 240 grain lead, semi wad cutter w/gas check; 6″ barrel; left a severe dent.
1/4″ boiler plate at approx. 25 feet: 357 magnum; cast 158 grain lead, semi wad cutter w/gas check; 10″ barrel; Almost completely penetrated the plate.
Making a hotter 357 load, using jacketed/plated, or coating the bullet with a compound like Teflon, would put it through the plate.
Here’s a little family fun day video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t12iq2xXWY
Muddy Cross & Cybergeezer;
Going back to the manual;
Amount of material needed to stop various calibers;
5.56mm (presumably M193 ball- this is an old manual); 1/2″ mild steel, 1″ structural aluminum, 14″ pine (solid, not in baffles)
7.62 NATO (assuming 150-grain); 1/2″ steel, 1″ aluminum, 22″ pine
12.7mm (.50 cal.); 3/4″ steel, 2″ aluminum, 32″ pine.
The figures for steel and aluminum, BTW, are consistent with the equivalent in homogeneous steel or aluminum armor on vehicles like the old M3 halftrack or M113 APC.
On the subject of shooting at steel targets, in tests I’ve shot holes in the back bumper of a junked 1956 Chevy with a .41 Magnum, 210-grain factory JSP. I’ve also seen hot handloads in the 9mm, like 124-grain hollowpoints loaded to 1,275 go in the trunk lid and only stop at the firewall. The .357 will show similar performance with a 158 semi-wadcutter cast hard (mixed lead and tin or linotype metal) and loaded to 1,400 (you need at least an 8″ barrel to get it up that high).
For real penetration, put the .357 in a lever-action carbine with a 16″ or 20″ barrel. In that barrel length, judicious handloading can launch a 125-grain JHP at close to 2,200 FPS; just below the 7.62×39 Kalashnikov out of an AK or SKS with the standard 124-grain spire-point FMJ.
The moral being, again, think twice about using any really high-velocity load of any kind for home defense. Unless of course you live way out in the country, with no close neighbors. Assuming you don’t kill a cow in a field a few hundred yards away (don’t laugh- I’ve seen it happen), any holes you put in your walls under those circumstances are your own problem. Although you’ll probably make your local building contractor happy, when he contemplates how much he’s going to charge you for fixing things up.
cheers
eon
Cybergeezer, talking about sending a liberal bedwetter into full cardiac arrest.
I love the little kid blasting away full auto with a Bush-Cheney tee shirt on.
EON;
Your data may be out of date. Newer bullet designs with jackets/coatings/elements can throw that data out of that mathematic domain with their physical properties.
eon,
I’m going to go off-topic here with a personal question.
You remind me of a current day renaissance man. Do you have your own blog or website? I’m not blowing smoke here, I love to read your posts, and I’d like to see your views on many topics. If you don’t have a blog, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE consider it!
Keep ‘em coming!
eon:
There’s a video of an armor piercing round in .50 caliber, I think, that will go through a concrete wall, and explode like a grenade on the other side. About 700 grain size.
I haven’t had time to research it, but when I find the details I’ll post it.
Essentially most people get their firearms knowledge from Hollywood.
In hollywood Bulletproof doesn’t spiderweb when hit by a bullet, you see some sparks (Ha!) and the bullet deflects harmlessly.
A car door is sufficient to stop up to a .357 Manuum or a .308 AK 47 round. And Plaster Wall board catches a .38 slug every time.
I became so flabergasted reading stories by struggling authors I wrote a primer for them just to debase the Hollywood Myths that they are so full of when they write their stories;
http://www.jaydee007.net/Writing/gun_primmer.htm
And never forget; If you do shoot an intruder in your home, regardless of the situation, Never Never Never Never call for the Police.
You call 911 and frantically ask for MEDICAL ASSISTANCE. Even if you empty a full magazine into the intruder and you know ther is no chance of survival, call for MEDICAL ASSISTANCE.
You then have a 911 tape record that once danger was passed you were concerned for the safety and well being of the perpatrator. That will be helpful when the family sues you in court for Wrongful Death.
[CORRECTION]
In hollywood Bulletproof doesn’t spiderweb
s/b
In hollywood Bulletproof Glass doesn’t spiderweb
There are other web sites and discussion threads dedicated to this topic: what to do and whom to call after a gun has been discharged. I’ve read interesting reviews for the book After You Shoot: Your gun’s hot. The perp’s not. Now what?
, Alan Korwin (Author). You do need to think about how you will handle the situation.
In Colorado, my understanding is that an intruder’s mere presence in your home is not grounds for shooting them, they must have done something else which scares you. If you’re ready, you can say they were advancing on you, making threats, or something. Otherwise, even in your own home, you will be in trouble with the law. Plenty of excited people shoot an intruder in their home, and then call 911 all excited, and say things in the moment which are very incriminating when the jury hears them, weeks and months later. You can always tell the police you are too stressed to talk right now, and where is my attorney?
This preparation is as much a part of gun ownership as time at the firing range.
Or you could do like I do and live in Texas.
Those type of lawsuits do not fly here thankfully.
WARNING!!! BS ALERT!!!!
Folks, do NOT go to this person’s website to learn about firearms. There’s a TON of nonsense there.
His section on bullet proof vests is particularly bad:
What a load of gun-store-commando Hollywood CRAP!
A decent understanding of the physics taught in a 9th grade general science course is all that’s needed to see the absurdity of some of his assertions.
Wow. Mark, I almost knee-jerked and launched a flurry at you, but then I realized you were cuting and pasting from that guys site. What twaddle that paragraph was.
I challange you both, from the viewpoint of writing a ‘primer’ for authors who in most cases have NEVER even seen a gun in real life, point out exactly where I was incorrect.
You have lots of opinion but no evidence.
I’ve listed several sites, and have even more real life articles from the news regarding what I said, now either quit with the personal attacks and provide some proof I’m innacurate or shut the heck up.
And don’t pull the specific/general argument. I’m making generalizations for inexperienced people so don’t put up specific cases that are exceptions to the rule. The mose common type of vest out there is Type 1, so don’t go listing some situation involving Type IV armor.
Put up or shut up.
The worst “Hollywood” bullet example was in “Animal House.” Neidermeyer uses an M-1 and shoots at a seltzer bottle held by Flounder with a crowd of people behind it. The bottle shatters and the bullet must evaporate because no one behind is harmed.
Personally, for self defense I’d recommend the Taurus Judge revolver, loaded with .410 buckshot rounds. (The Taurus revolvers – http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=41&toggle=tr – will handle both .45 bullets and .410 shotgun shells).
No it’s not. It’s called, You might kill or injure an innocent person.
Lawsuit liability? Puhleease! You just disqualified yourself from talking about firearms.
I covered that further down. I tend to deal with legal issues first, moral ones thereafter.
Bold and italic together are not necessary, you know.
cheers
eon
Never underestimate a small .22 either. For such a small bullet, they can go a VERY long ways. Most have a 5 mile range. They may not be very accurate at that range but they can rattle around in a head pretty good at a couple miles. How many people have no neighbours within a couple miles?
Also, hit men used to use .22 a lot. They can get in the head pretty good then just bounce around and do all sorts of damage. That I heard from a medical examiner once. He said it was very effective and there are tons of them out there and cheap too.
I hope my luck continues. I have never had a gun go off unless I wanted it too.
.22LR will NOT go five miles. Neither will .556mm, nor 7.62mm NATO. At max ordinate (37 degrees), .22LR will go about one mile (it used to say so right on the box).
Max range from the Army Tech Manuals: M9/9mm Luger – 1800 meters (1969 yards);
M16A2 Rifle/5.56mm – 3600 meters; M240 Machine Gun/7.62mm NATO (.308 Win) – 3700 meters; .50 BMG – 7,400 yds (6,767 meters).
Some people when shot are prepared to give up and lay down. Others are not. Because of the psychological difference, ‘one shot’ stop statistics are unreliable.
What is reliable, within limits is biology. Every hostile this side of an enemy alien will have a spinal chord. Cutting that spinal chord will always stop that hostile. The spinal chord will always be at the back. Your round will have to penetrate to cut it, and it may take you several shots to hit it. The spinal chord is about as big around as your little finger. You may have to shoot several times to hit that thin bit of biology. Hitting the heart, liver, lungs may kill, but are less likely to stop.
Overpenetration after justified shooting of a hostile is not a big concern. Missing is a big concern. Hitting a bystander with a missed shot is a bigger deal than hitting with a round that goes through a person, and then continues on.
Faster hollowpoints tend to not overpenetrate. The high velocity when it first hits flesh opens the hollowpoint more. More open hollowpoints make bigger holes, and have more drag.
Of course if you miss, the damage they may do to a bystander is increased.
Practice, and wait before you display, so you don’t in error, display to someone who is not hostile. Wait before you fire until the hostile person is close enough that you won’t miss.
At very close range, powder gasses will enter the wound behind the bullet, and make a ghastly wound.
Lower velocity hollow point bullets penetrate further in flesh. They don’t open, and so penetrate while making a smaller hole. If you have a small weak pistol (say .25ACP or .32ACP) the only way to get enough penetration is to not use hollowpoints.
Rifle rounds are also complex. The old 55 grain 5.56×45 rounds would normally fragment because of high bending forces at the canneleur (a row of dents in the jacket) if they hit flesh with less then perfect alignment at more than 2500 ft per second. The newer rounds are heavier, and have lower muzzle velocity, but better performance at distance.
Rifle rounds nutate (the center of rotation changes) so you may get perfect alignment or you may not. If you get perfect alignment, your target will get a ‘through and through’ wound. If you get less than perfect alignment you get fragmentation for the 5.56mm round, but the 7.62×51 round (US manufacture) has a thick bronze jacket, and acts like a solid, and the round turns sideways. German 7.62mm rounds have a thin steel jacket, and the lead interior is squished out as the round turns sideways. Hunting rifles tend to have the front end mushroom, and that doesn’t support the bending forces necessary to have a round fragment. Because of the variation in alignment, it is ‘good practice’ to shoot multiple rounds with a rifle in a life threatening situation. That way you have multiple chances to get a round that is not perfectly aligned.
In a shotgun, a number 1 shot or larger will penetrate to the back of a human target. For a 3 inch magnum, you have 25 each number 1 buckshot, each .30 inches in diameter. With larger shot (0,00, or 000) you get larger holes, but fewer. Smaller than number 1 shot will not reliabily penetrate to the back of a human target, and will therefore not reliably stop hostile persons. If the shotgun is launched at very close ranges, the powder gas can enter the body and create a ghastly wound.
Lavoisier was a French scientist, and had worked as a tax collector for the King. Because of that he was sentenced to death by guillotine. His last experiment was to blink his eyes after his neck was severed, as long as he could. The answer: about 16 seconds for that head to die, and another thousand years will not create another head like it. Take time before you shoot, be sure of your target and what lies beyond it. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are lined up. Don’t point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy. All guns are always loaded.
Never lie to the police, never guess, never interpolate unless you are an expert. People who do such things are known as criminals.
It’s a cord, not a “chord”, and it’s a VERY small target.
No knowledgeable firearms instructor would ever teach his students to shoot for the spinal cord.
In layman’s terms, Tolbert — you wouldn’t want a round to go through (for example) an intruder, and then continue going through your wall/door/window, across the street, and through your neighbor’s wall/door/window, and hit some innocent person who happens to be in an adjacent house.
That’s really not “layman’s” terms.
That’s “anybody who has a basic understanding of firearms” terms.
The very first thing anyone contemplating buying a firearm needs to understand is this: A firearm is an engine of destruction. A handgun is specifically designed to kill other human beings. Unless one is prepared to wrap one’s psyche around these basic facts, one might need to reconsider one’s plans.
Once one has drawn one’s weapon, one has declared one’s willingness to end the life of the person with whom one is confronted. There is no such thing as “shooting to wound.” Any firearm can kill, either instantly, or by inflicting a wound which results in subsequent death, or, barring that, crippling or maiming.
A responsible individual who chooses to make firearms use a part of their life must always keep these facts in mind. Despite how the media and the Left would like to portray us, we are, largely, peaceable folks who dread ever having to draw and use our weapons, despite having made the choice to maintain that option. Firearm ownership is a RESPONSIBILITY, as well as, in many ways, a BURDEN.
However, the alternative is to leave ourselves and our loved ones vulnerable to victimization. And, for our choice, we are often seen as dangerous, irresponsible, or simply odd. =’[.]‘=
Well; I guess you never went hunting big game.
A large caliber pistol for backup to your scoped rifle is SOP. Of all the pistols I’ve ever owned and fired, none ever shot another human being. I had no idea they were all defective.
Context, ‘Geezer, context. The column is about self-defense with respect to two-legged varmints. Hunting isn’t the subject.
Raycheetah’s remarks are right on the money, and very important.
Ted Kennedy’s Car has killed more people than all 9 of my handguns.
The terms “engine of destruction” is absolutely over the top. It reads like an over-dramatization right out of the leftist’s anti-gun playbook. So too is the line that “A handgun is specifically designed to kill other human beings,” like an unneeded reminder, of the potential of the implement, as if empowerment over one’s life is not the point.
Some may consider gun owners as “dangerous, irresponsible,” or even “odd,” but I would not consider them friends. Potential converts maybe. Gun owners and would be gun owners, can and should be unapologetic about the right to bear arms, as it’s enshrined in the Bill of Rights, as well as incorporated throughout the nation.
Over-dramatization, perhaps, but with an emphasis on making a point to those who might otherwise have some nebulous notion of gun-ownership as talismanic protection. One doesn’t simply buy a firearm and surround oneself in an aura of safety; one must assume responsibility for safe use and at least minimal proficiency with the weapon, including a mind prepared to use lethal force in defense of self or others, ideally while remaining within the laws governing one’s state.
Once one gets past these basics, then one can worry about the relative merits of what kind of weapons one wishes to acquire. =’[.]‘=
A sword is the weapon designed specifically to kill human beings. It’s pretty much the only one. Even cannons have other applications. Weapons are designed to kill, yes; but all of them can be used to kill animals as well as humans, the sword being the sole exception in terms of design. A sword of course has the ability to kill an animal, but it’s extremely inefficient compared to a spear, bow, crossbow, etc. A sword has no purpose other than to kill human beings.
Military arms are designed specifically for human combat, however all of them can be used in other ways suited to their characteristics.
I have no fear of weapons. It is people I worry about. It’s the reason for being a conservative in the American sense; I don’t trust people to be naturally good when they gain a little authority. I expect them to be petty tyrants, and historically speaking they usually are. The only solution to tyranny is diffusion of power, and there is no better way to keep tyranny from happening than to have LOTS of people bearing arms. It is certainly necessary to inculcate a proper respect for weapons and what they can do in children, but it is one with the general sense of responsibility required of a free citizen of a free republic. City living, especially suburban living, provides a buffer from reality. When people are shocked and say ‘I didn’t think it could happen here’ it’s indicative of the shelter they took for granted. There is no safe. Places that are perfect don’t exist, hence the name Utopia: nowhere.
Terrifying children into fearing guns is just one more way of insulating them from reality. It’s better to bring them along bit by bit so they will understand reality, not shelter them completely until someday they find out all at once that reality can be a hard, harsh, horrible place, as well as a wonderful and joyful.
I think you’re just going overboard in the warning area. What I did was bring 2-liter bottles filled with water, and had the kids try to break them open with hands and feet–couldn’t do it. Then we chopped one open with a knife. Then we shot it with a .22, and then a .303. We never did find all the pieces of the last. They got the idea right away, and listened to the lecture on safety with the earnestness and soberness you always see in children when they realize things are serious. They had been jumping around excited before that, but never took one step past the firing line after the first little lesson, and did exactly as they were told.
This is preposterous sophistry.
Very early in the career of our species, our ancestors learned that throwing rocks was a useful skill, that permitted the force of human muscles to be applied at a distance greater than arm’s reach, useful in harvesting small game, even birds, as well as in attacking enemy humans.
David improved on the means of propelling the rocks, sufficient to take out Goliath without having to come within his reach. Many additional innovations have elaborated the basic concept, over the centuries.
A firearm is a machine designed to employ a chemical reaction of gas production and expansion, to propel a small rock, a bullet, at high velocity. A handgun is the smallest form of this type of machine, while an 18 inch naval rifle is one of the largest.
A firearm may be used to make holes in a paper (target), to shatter flying clay “pigeoons”, or to guard against murderous assailants.
What you do with it is your business, and your choice. It is not a property of the rock-throwing machine.
I like your definition of firearm. I would add ‘in a controlled direction’ after your ‘to propel a small rock, a bullet, at high velocity’. That differentiates it from a fragmentation device (e,g,: grenade).
Raycheetah sounds like he has a healthy respect for handguns. I won’t beat up on him for that.
During the latter 1/4, this is an absolutely irresponsible article. I hope for their sakes, no newcomers to firearms looking for self defense options read this and take it seriously.
Really, did you forget to mention your shot size discussion was for customers who decided to go for the 12 gauge despite your suggestions? Even then, I shudder to think of the lack of information you have assimilated in determining what it can take to stop an aggressor with gunfire. The sizes of shot you’re recommending, in the gauges you’re apparently talking about, are absurd… even in 12 gauge form, I’ve seen steel rabbit shot BOUNCE off of a DUCK. A tiny animal stopped it with a shield of FEATHERS, which although visibly ruffled, did not stop the animal from flying and maneuvering and accelerating until it got hit by something much heavier.
And what exactly does shot size have to do with “stout recoil” and “deafening indoor blast”? Those are factors of the amount of powder in the shell (so for the most part, length and gauge), with some minor consideration for barrel length and gun action/design. What comes after that is simply the degree of efficiency of external and terminal ballistics, and you seem to have advised people to use both underpowered weapons AND inefficient multipliers. That is dangerous.
I’d easily recommend a “youth and ladies” handgun as weak as .32 (or maybe even .25) if loaded with appropriately efficient hollowpoint rounds, over what this article seems to suggest. It is true that if you know the conditions of your potential armed self defense will accommodate it, a shotgun may not be a bad choice, but even out of the gate, that means overpenetration is probably already taken care of, unless you’re loading slugs instead of shot. With a .410 bore, that’s even more true, so take the larger and HEAVIER shotshells (lead or tungsten, not steel) you can muster — else you might UNDERpenetrate heavy clothing and dermis/subdermis skin. And even then I hesitate to suggest what is essentially a heavy pistol cartridge firing a much-less-efficient payload, but I won’t pretend to be absolutely sure that there’s zero chance of an effective .410 defensive load… you just better stick with the hardest hitting option you have, and you better be very close to the target. With 20 gauge, you’re still holding an underpowered version of a weapon that SWAT and HRT teams around the country like because it penetrates walls so poorly, and they use lead double-aught buckshot. You should probably follow suit. When you’re up to the 12 gauges they are using, I could imagine the themes of extraordinary carefulness or projectile-count-advantage displacing the desire for a harder-hitting shell, but at most I’d say go all the way down to size 4 BUCKshot (almost 3x the pellets of double-aught, so each is considerably smaller), NOT even the biggest ones designed for things like ducks, like size 2 birdshot (over 11x the pellets, so each is TOO small, even if your desire to not overpenetrate comes from being in tokyo surrounded by walls of paper).
And sound? Well, conventional wisdom and personal experience indicate that the sound of your fire is going to bother the person you’re shooting at a lot more than it does you. Even if you miss, if you’re terrifying enough you could very well get rid of a threat. The 12 gauge could be overwhelming for many but shooting it at a range (despite it being wide open) at regular intervals should get you fairly prepared for the noise when indoors… and again, larger sizes of shot in the same gauge and length of shell aren’t going to hinder your ability to be accurate.
So anyway, to wrap this all back into politics, as usual… is this really PJ media? What is going on, you seem like you’re deathly afraid of people you don’t know taking on the personal responsibility of lethal firearm ownership. It’s as if I’m hearing a liberal who would rather people be so inadequately armed that they fail to stop attackers charging them, just so they’ll see their family member survive if they royally screw up and wind up shooting him/her.
…And that’s not an assumption that my (better) advice, taken over the internet and likely forgotten soon, is complete preparedness for firearm ownership, nor that there isn’t anything at all to fear. I guess when all is said and done the best lesson to be learned from this article is, if you’re a rookie to firearms, get someone with some experience to guide you IN PERSON and with feedback (you can find contrary information and ask/quiz them) and perhaps accountability.
Probably, in the not too distant future, the current “administration” will incorporate in the federal background check, the search for “irresponsible essays” written by the applicant.
In fact. it’s probably already there, but kept secret by the DOJ/DHS.
Put down the crack pipe. A simple .410 in a lousy handgun like The Judge will do more than enough to stop any intruder. BAM! Done. Your comments on ducks shrugging off a 20 gauge – you need to do the acid at home next time. And, waving around a heavy 12 gauge shotgun in the house is impossible, whatever the loads.
Shot deflection is not unknown, but it’s more of a problem with bird shot at 30 yards than 20 feet. And a 12 ga. double with a nice short barrel – Winchester used to make one 25 1/2 inches in length –handles pretty well in the brush or the bedroom.
One of the attractions of the sports of hunting and target shooting is that there is room for more than one opinion.
#4 shot, #7 shot, come on! Some slimeball breaks into your house and gets a volley from a .410, their aggression stops instantly. Most .410s I know are single shot and I believe that they get the point across just fine. I notice this article is a FIRST INSTALLMENT so I look forward to a much more in depth study of this very important subject to come.
I found your delicate approach to the subject appropriate as you are obviously directing the article at people who have no experience with firearms and will most likely be reluctant to even want history on their browser of looking at a gun related website. I work in a music store and have been amazed how many musicians are interested in self-defense but are deathly afraid other musicians will find out. It’s kind of a silly secret that everybody has a gun but I’m the only one who knows.
As a shooter for nearly 50 years, I appreciate the references to our early introduction to firearms as a child. The first piece of furnature my father built was a gun case for my Mattel rifles. I thought the greatest day in my life was when dad let me shoot his .22 bolt action. I recently finished building my own display case for my 6 automatic pistols and happily recalled dads work all those many years ago every step of the way.
You are doing a great job with this series. Keep up the good work.
“What is going on, you seem like you’re deathly afraid of people you don’t know taking on the personal responsibility of lethal firearm ownership. It’s as if I’m hearing a liberal who would rather people be so inadequately armed that they fail to stop attackers charging them, just so they’ll see their family member survive if they royally screw up and wind up shooting him/her.”
Agree or disagree with Bob’s suggestions, this article is about types of guns. I also think it is only a start on advantages and disavantages of various gun and ammo types. Responsible ownership is a separate conversation as are tactics and strategies for self-defense. So far the only really good advice I’ve seen from this comments section is to go try out some weapons to see what you can handle. Once you’ve done that and have considered what your circumstances are(where you live etc) and if you find that the weapon you can handle has less stoping power than what some of you recommend, then you get busy training and prepping to make the most of what you can handle.
I am undecided between a shot gun and a hand gun. I’ve fired a 357 and found it to be heavy and difficult to aim. I think I can overcome the weight with practice and some strengthening of my arms. However, I’ve never fired a shot gun so I have no idea if it might be a better choice for me and my circumstances-small house, close to other houses with a school right across the street. Knowing myself as I do, I suspect that a shot gun will be steadier in my hands when the adrenyline is coursing through my veins than a hand gun will be. The idea of hollow points that have stopping power but not pentrating through the house has given me even more to think about.
–Eva, be careful not to get too deep into the analysis –it’s what you do with it that counts, whether it is the best choice or the nearly worst. Just from your comment, if i were asked to advise you, i’d say, buy a 20 ga. pump (with a short barrel rather than a long) and a few boxes of ‘middle brass, middle shot’ –say, field load #6 or #7 1/2. Go out and shoot enough ammo to make the weapon as familiar to you as it can possibly be. The muscle training is what best overcomes the adrenaline.
Wiki is excellent on shotshells.
Eva
Many 357s will also shoot 38 Special, which is more controllable but still deadly. And you can buy this round in managed (reduced) recoil (Federal 110 grain). This is what my wife has on her side, while I sport a 45ACP, 12 gauge short barrel and machete on mine.
A 20 gauge pump shotgun kicks, but with the right load, it’s not bad at all. The 12 gauge kicks more, but there are wonderful tactical BS loads that reduce recoil significantly.
I’d rather have a little bruise on my arm than be dead.
Good shooting!!!!!!!!
I’ve long held that a youth-model 20 gauge pump-action shotgun is the best home-defense firearm for most people in most instances. The length and four points of contact you have with a shotgun create a lot more stability and accuracy than the two points inherent in the pistol. In either case, you’re going to have a tendency to impact high is a stressful situation, but the tendency is much, much greater with a pistol. Since you’ll be engaging at short range, you can use birdshot to good effect and minimize the risk of over-penetration. The short length of the youth model is easily maneuvered through doorways and around objects. The sound of a shell being racked in the pump action is a very intimidating, and very distinctive. The recoil is pretty minor and easily controllable for quick follow-up shots. (Especially compared to a hot pistol load or a 12 gauge slug.)
I’m not sure I support the OA’s recommendation of a .410, though.
I wouldn’t be comfortable using it myself, and I’m not comfortable potentially staking someone else’s life on the proposition. Sure, it *should* work, but… It adds uncertainty.
Eva, there is a TON of really bad information in the comments section here. The article itself isn’t really very good, either.
Step one for you is TRAINING. Selecting the weapon comes LATER.
I suggest you start in two places (yes, that’s possible):
1. Buy and read John Farnam’s book.
2. Take an NRA defensive handgun course.
Those are STARTER steps. Please don’t think that an NRA course is adequate training. It’s only a STARTER.
THEN start thinking about selecting a weapon.
Mark v, ha ha. NRA courses…not to poo-poo them, but I passed their gun safety course in highschool and we never even looked at a gun during the entire course. So I am pretty sure that doesn’t qualify me for much when it comes to guns.
I appreciate your comments and some of the others and yes, even I can tell that a lot of comments around here are just a bunch of junk. Some people have been too busy talking to each other instead of addressing the point of the discussion which is newbies and talking realistically about guns in a way that we can understand. One of my reasons for chiming in is not so much that I am confused but I noticed the lack of newbies asking questions and wondered if any one was put off by some of the comments that as I said, were a bit discouraging not just confusing.
I’ve been told before, as you mentioned in your other comments, about no guarantees and that one shot may not be enough. I did grow up with guns in the house but I just wasn’t very interested so I never handled them much. We did have conversations about them. My dad always said if I found that I needed to use one, and I got my mom’s 22 pistol instead of his 357 that was fine, just be ready to empty it into him if need be. I always thought it was good advice and would be even with the 357. Any way that is where I am coming from on the subject. I’m also a cautious consumer. I try to find out as much as I can before I buy.
So here is what I get from all of this, correct me if I’m wrong, and I know you guys will. Learn, take a few guns for a test drive, get a weapon that I am comfortable holding and get the ammo that it and I can handle keeping in mind that big or small some times it does the job on the first shot but sometimes it takes a few more so be prepared. And take some training that is more than just target practice.
One last thing. Why read stuff here and comment etc instead of just heading out to my local gun store or gun club to find out what I want to know? It’s part of my process. I don’t know who is reputable and who isn’t. I’ve run across too many men who have tried to steer me wrong on ‘men’ things (like cars) so I like to at least have some knowledge first, that way some jerk doesn’t assume I am just some silly woman who he can manipulate into getting something that profits him but is not what I need.
We need more women like you.
You are definitely on the right track, Eva. Do get John Farnam’s book. It’s solid stuff, and John is The Real Deal.
Anything by Massad Ayoob is good, too.
This kind of macho chest-pounding, my gun’s bigger than your gun BS is what gives gun owners a bad name and makes it all the more difficult for the sane among us to defend them. Sorry, for the person who doesn’t practice at the range a LOT and who hasn’t had training from a professional or who grew up using guns, a handgun is probably more dangerous to the owner than to an attacker or intruder. That is especially true of large caliber/magnum handguns, say anything more powerful than a .38. It doesn’t matter if you’re carrying Dirty Harry’s “.44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the World,” (it isn’t anymore) if you can’t hit anything with the big, heavy, thing that kicks like a mule. Unless you are both well trained and a good shot, you’re as likely as not to miss with a pistol unless the range is down to where the attacker can pretty much lay hands on you, and at that range, your life REALLY is in danger. As far as I’m concerned, for home defense a pistol is only for getting to the shotgun you never should have separated yourself from, and everything eon said about overpenetration in urban/suburban settings applies as well.
Many choose that macho “tacticool” 12 guage and load it with 00 and/or slugs because they’re manly men who can handle that big, noisy, scary-looking black thing that kicks like a mule. What if it’s your 110# wife that’s home alone when the intruder shows up? I know that for a manly man gun control is hitting the target but for a small woman firing a weapon that she’s afraid of in a threatening situation makes control even of bodily functions difficult, so she misses and kills your kid, your dog, or even your next-door neighbor and that slug that you knew you could put center mass was last seen in the next county.
I don’t recommend the common singleshot .410 or 20 ga. as HD weapons because it takes a lot of training to reload quickly and I think an HD weapon should have the capability for follow on shots; not all of us are manly men who can always do the job with one center mass shot. A 20 ga pump firing heavy bird loads is a very adequate weapon at distances that really are defensive. You can take your chances with an elected DA and 12 morons with driver’s licenses because you started banging away the moment the intruder cracked the door. But, when the prosecutor tells the jury about how it was the kid next door who’d had too much to drink and came in the door of the wrong virtually identical McMansion, you’re going down for murder in most places. Castle laws notwithstanding, you’re going to have to show that there was a credible threat to your life and that you took some reasonable steps to ascertain the nature of the threat or at minimum you’re going to be charged and face 12 morons with driver’s licenses. It’s a good rule that any charge that can cost you your life or liberty will cost you everything you have to save your life or liberty. Choose well.
I think the ideal HD weapon in an urban/suburban environment is a 12 ga. pump shotgun with heavy bird shot, but only if you AND your wife are comfortable shooting it. I have a Mossberg 500 loaded with heavy birdshot beside the bed. It has a light and a Blackhawk recoil absorbing stock so my wife is relatively comfortable shooting it. What we’ve planned and walked through is to shoot any intruder on sight if the intruder is obviously armed or brandishing and to shoot to eliminate the threat if the intruder, obviously armed or not, advances or threatens after an oral challenge. That said, we’ve both had training and spent a good bit of range time and all we can do is hope that is enough preparation to actually deal with an armed person forcibly entering our home; there is no good trying and all the macho chest pounding in the World won’t help you.
But I, too, do like those nasty-looking black tacticool guns, so if there’s ever a zombie attack on my suburban house, I have a very tricky Saiga 12 gauage and a very large supply of 5 and 10 rd. magazines and those are mostly loaded with 00 and slugs, but we’re talking a zombie attack after all. Now that thing really isn’t happy unless it’s loaded with 3″ and ripping off a 10 rd. magazine will tenderize your shoulder, so when I take it to the range, I’m not ashamed to put my falsies on because unlike manly men, I do feel pain.
I agree that there is a lot of macho chest pounding here. Comments about needing higher firepower is more discouraging for us petites than encouraging. To us that know we physically can’t handle the bigger (cooler) guns get a message here that we just shouldn’t bother since it won’t do us any good anyway. Thanks a lot.
If an armed intruder enters your home, what guarantee do you have that you’ll be the one who shoots first? There are no guarantees.
Some can afford to avoid the risks associated with lighter fire power but some of us can’t. I accept the risk if my weapon of choice is dictated by my smallish stature. I have to. And I have to be unafraid to be aggresive enough (and learn enough)to use that weapon to it’s best advantage. A weapon that is just too much for me to handle comes down to not much more than luck. Bob’s lighter gun suggestions would at least give me a fighting chance and I’ll take that over luck everytime.
About 600,000 men died in the US Civil War, a goodly percentage of them from wounds from a .58 caliber mini ball, the ammunition used in Springfield and Enfield muskets. That .58 ball is about the same size as a 20 guage shotgun and shotgun loads today achieve about the same muzzle velocity as a rifled musket well loaded with good powder, both of which were often lacking. Those men are just as dead as if they’d been killed by a bigger weapon.
Exactly…and thank you.
They would have died by now anyway.
Lighter gun does NOT translate to “easier to fire”. The problem is recoil. Shooters expecting painful recoil tend to flinch, and a flinching shooter has a hard time hitting anything. I have heard people complain of trouble shooting snubbies (revolvers with short barrels, around 2″) in .38 Special, when they have no problem firing the same ammo in a larger and slightly heavier gun.
By “lighter” in my comments I mean both weapon and ammmo. As I said, I have considered that a little physical training would probably over come the weight of a hand gun. I have fired both .38 and .45 rounds. After I got over the ‘flinch’ factor the first time I fired the .38, yes, it’s not that bad. By the time my friend that I was shooting with let me fire a .45, I had much better control.
To all of you gentlemen who’ve responded, thank you for your advice and encouragement.
Eva;
There’s always this option:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8
Eva, Art’s post does NOT belong in here with all the other garbage posted by gun-store-commandoes. He actually makes sense. He gives sound advice.
Don’t be scared by the fact that you are better off with more firepower from a lighter weapon. Any hit with a .22 is FAR more effective than any miss with a .44 mag. The most important thing is to hit your target, repeatedly. You MUST assume that the first round will not stop the fight. YOU MUST fire until the threat is neutralized. Shooting once and waiting to see what happens is a good way to get killed. Men have kept charging after being hit center mass with a 12 gauge slug.
I am an excellent shot, and I would not even THINK about using any single shot in a defensive situation. I want the biggest I can fire quickly and accurately. For me, that happens to be pretty big – I can handle the biggest handguns and enjoy it. For others, that may be a .22 or a 9mm or something like that.
The best weapon is the one you can fire accurately and rapidly and reliably. Consideration of “stopping power” is waaaay behind those other factors, simply because there is no such thing as a hand-portable weapon (including rifles) that will GUARANTEE a one-shot stop. It doesn’t exist. Not the .357 magnum, not the .45 ACP, not the .44 or .50 or anything else.
Do one shot stops happen? Certainly. And they happen more often with .357s than with .22s. But .22s have killed with one shot, and .357s have failed to do so. There are no GUARANTEES. You maximize your probability of surviving a gunfight by concentrating FIRST on reliability, THEN on accuracy, THEN on rapidity, THEN on power.
Don’t get the order wrong.
Concerning defensive shotgun, consider the gas operated auto. If you are injured and down to one hand could you operate a pump? Gas operated means it will reload even if “limp wristed” when shooting with your weak hand. A youth model in 20 gauge should be sufficient.
Was that steel shot proof duck at 10 feet or at 150+ feet? Few humans pose an immediate threat at 150 feet, though it’s been known, and few have feathers.
Note the emphasis on low power (low powder) field loads, intended for use on animals at close range. Said close range is still further away than is typical for protection. There just isn’t all that much justification for a projectile that can carry 50 yards or more and still have enough steam to punch through a wall. Not in town. Out in the country, fine.
“even in 12 gauge form, I’ve seen steel rabbit shot BOUNCE off of a DUCK.
Unfortunately, weird stuff sometimes happens. I’ve seen a 12 gauge rifled slug fail to even dent a sheet of half-inch chipboard. All the other slugs I fired that day punched neat 3/4″ holes clean through the sheet. But that one that didn’t wasn’t even deformed. Very odd. I wouldn’t conclude from that incident that rifled slugs are useless.
Squib load, most likely. It happens. This is one of the many reasons you never assume that one shot will stop a fight.
rantbot: That is a good point, and just to be sure I didn’t declare anything useless (and it’s not like I’d rather throw a shell made for a rabbit at an assailant than shoot him, if those are my options). And it’s only certain combinations of loads and shot sizes I’ve found questionable as advice to new-comers. I just think the potential for a failure, even if just in those rare situations (and it’s certainly true that far more will be decided by user competency), is worth discussing considering how unheard of it is to accidentally kill someone behind a wall with any of these kinds of shotshells we’re discussing, fired defensively at an assailant. A shot almost missed with a steep angle of penetration, with a chance to penetrate effectively or just enrage, depending on what size shot someone picked, seems more likely to me. Also I’ll note that the reverse is true: one story of a very effective defensive .410 or 20 gauge use does not make it a man-stopping beast in every load and home defense situation you could imagine.
Phillep Harding: This was close enough to see the feathers and events I described, so I’d say 8-9 yards… different than 10 feet, to be sure, but my front door as I’m looking at it now is closer to 30 feet as well. And my mentioning of heavy clothing and skin was analogous to the feathers situation. As for “justification” for heavy loads (heavier than what I brought forward as compromises / suggestions), ask LAPD SWAT and their successors nationwide, who shunned 9mm full metal jacket fired from long (submachine gun) barrels for overpenetration reasons but don’t seem to have a problem with 00 buck in close urban quarters.
Eva, art, etc up above: I’m not 100% sure if the posts I’m thinking of even refer to me, since they seem to have misplaced my points, but suffice it to say that I’m not pounding my chest about this. My post was about shot size, which contrary to the article, has only indirect relation to recoil, gauge, length, amount of powder, etc. It makes you no more manly to use heavier shot, it just means you’re well prioritized. If you can’t handle a 12 gauge at all, and struggle to wield a 20 gauge as effectively as a .410, then certainly *TALK TO AN EXPERT/GUIDE FACE TO FACE* about setting up a .410 for self defense… and a good question to ask him, if he actually agrees with this article, is why .410 loads marketed for self defense and predators tend to contain the huge and heavy triple-aught buckshot. I can’t personally vouch for that idea since they’ve only got like 4 pellets and I’m not sure how that would work as far as spread and reliability go, but maybe you’ll find your place in a large-shot, small-recoil home defense shotgun… or maybe with only that option remaining you’re not meant for it, and a manageable pistol would be better (esp. at extremely close ranges, where having the weapon grabbed is a bigger issue and lack of shooting form in stress a smaller one).
If 20 gauge is your game, again, (and AFTER that face-to-face with a local guide) go with the larger shot to make up for the reduction in power (though I misspoke a bit before, you can’t “follow suit” as 00 buck in 20 gauge is hard to come by, but you can pick the heaviest of the buckshot types that stack well in that bore). And lastly, as I started my original rant, if/when you’re already comfortable with 12 gauge THEN it is perhaps the time to start getting clever with shot sizes and pull out your neat tricks — I offered #4 buck as it’s gaining some popularity with police, but there’s wiggle room, especially the closer you are. Heck, don’t even limit yourself to one size. In a 12 gauge with a 5 shot capacity, I’d see nothing wrong with some of the shot sizes the author suggested in the first 2 shells (given we’re not talking steel, heavy metal should be gospel in my opinion), #4 buck in the next 2, and 00 buck in the last. That way if you’re actually on shot 5 it’s a SHTF situation and you’d rather fire grapeshot from a cannon than fail to stop the threat again.
Another good reason to own a gun is you have an ax to grind.
Yes, I have an ax to grind. It is against anyone that wants to severely injure or kill me. I also have a ax to grind against anyone that wants to severely injure or kill my family. Have you reconciled with your family that YOU would not do everything possible to save them from mortal harm? I suggest you put that in writing and post it on your fridge
Take it easy. I’m on your side. You just need to look at the statement from a different perspective.
I do have an axe to grind with the leftist idiots who elected the communist SOB who’s destroying my Country. Want some? Come get it.
Raycheetah makes great points. It isn’t just a handgun that is designed to kill; all guns are designed to kill. Shooting sports may be a nice activity but isn’t why man first employed gun powder as a means of propelling a projectile down a metal tube. It was too kill. All guns are potentially lethal, and the old shooting adage that you shouldn’t point the barrel of a gun at anything you don’t intend to destroy should be forefront in your mind any time you have a firearm in your hand.
I’ve been shooting since I was 6. I’m 43 now, and as a twenty year military veteran I have had been in the unfortunate position to having to use a firearm against another human being. If anyone thinks they are just going to buy a gun and suddenly confront a would-be assailant with relaxed prowess is going to be sadly and possibly fatally mistaken. So my first rule to buying a firearm is to learn to shoot them first. Go to reputable indoor range that rents firearms and take a course, then rent, and then when you feel comfortable with something, you can think about buying it. If you are in a position where you feel you need to buy now, then start training with that weapon as soon as you buy it. Like anything, the more familiar and practiced with the weapon you are, the better you can expect to use it under duress.
As to what I recommend for a person’s first gun, well that’s always a huge debate, and it really comes down to need. As I write this I realize it’s hard for me, who has owned guns, and been “into” guns for as long as I can remember to decipher what would be a good first gun. Brand loyalty and caliber preference will enter into any debate on the subject, so consequently whatever I say is going to be countered by someone with a different preference. If you are looking for a gun for home defense, let me say that home defense is a layered process. Ownership of “a gun” is not necessarily the right, or only answer. I work nights, so my wife and kids are home alone. My wife is former law enforcement and prefers a Glock 19, 9mm, which she keeps in her top dresser drawer with a loaded magazine, and none in the pipe. That’s the only gun we keep anywhere near at the ready. All our other guns are kept locked up.
We also have a dog. The proper dog is invaluable as an early detection, and threat deterrent system. A potential intruder is going to think twice about entering an occupied house where a dog immediately reacts to their presence. I would also recommend a good LED flashlight and some pepper spray. If someone enters your home in the dark and is hit in the eyes with a bright light, it will stop them, and give you a few extra moments to either shoot, use pepper spray, or flee. Barring a dog, use an alarm system with motion sensor or glass break that will notify the alarm company in case of a break-in. Obviously, how you prepare your home defense strategy will depend on how many options you have. Do you own the home? Can you install good outside doors with solid frames and good locks? Etc.
I personally wouldn’t use my shotgun, nor would I recommend a long gun for engaging an intruder in your home, but that is personal preference. I’d say a good quality semi automatic pistol in 9mm, .40 cal, or .45 ACP and using hollow point ammunition is a good base point for any potential handgun buyer. Without getting into the ballistics, those three rounds have very similar muzzle energy. If you want something a little stronger you can go with a 10mm or .357. Just remember, shot placement is far more important than the type of gun or caliber of bullet, so whatever you choose, become proficient with it, I can’t stress this enough. Also, be sure to do some research before you go to the gun store. Nothing concerns a gun store clerk more than dealing with obviously inexperienced customers who want to start handling the merchandise. Ask questions of them. Explain to them what you are looking for and unless you are buying your gun from a pawn shop, or a disreputable dealer, you’re bound to get the help you need. Ask about classes and training, this alleviates their fears that you’re a nut job who just wants to buy a gun to supplement your ego.
Though I personally have a .45 automatic, for a first-time gun buyer who wants a self-defense weapon I think there’s a lot to be said for a plain-jane .38 revolver. I think they’re safer for a novice and easier to use; just point and pull the trigger. An elderly, weak, or petite person might be better off with a .32 or even a .22. My wife (small and petite) is quite proficient with a .38.
Buy a .38 revolver (simple to use, just pull the trigger!) carry it in your pants pocket with a reload strip. This will allow you to fight your way to your 20 gauge. The ‘gauge’ changes everything.
However, IF you have no range time and don’t plan on soon spending hundreds of hours acquiring that time, a shotgun IS your safest and best bet.
Long muzzles are harder to accidentally point in a stupid direction.
At close range a .410 is a better stopper than a .45, 20ga is a guarantee, and 12ga will stop an armored giant fast.
——-
And you should still GET THE RANGE TIME IN!
I’ll admit that I’m just not a particularly good pistol shot. At HD ranges, 10 – 15 yards, I’m just a lot more confident and comfortable with my shotgun. I do carry, but my .380 PPK is strictly for concealed carry where that is the only option for a weapon and I’m well aware that it really is for “Oh, s**t” distances.
I like the PPK because I like for concealed to be concealed and I’m not a real big guy so most larger weapons print.
What good does the gun in the dresser do while all of you are sitting around the dinner table or TV and you have a door kick type home invasion? Carry that sucker. Hand guns were designed to be convenient to carry weapons for self defense. Make use of that.
I tried carrying a long gun while doing chores, believe me, IT DON’T WORK! But, Ayoob, IIRC, showed something that really got me thinking. Stand with your back to a wall and have someone measure from the wall to the muzzle of a hand gun ready to use, and a carbine ready to fire. The carbine is generally shorter overall.
If you have a carbine or a shotgun for in house protection, then consider the lessons of the Tueller Drill: Someone attacking from short range can be on you a lot faster than you might think. A bayonet is not a stupid thing to have on that long gun if you run into someone eager to close. Let him impale himself.
“Shooting sports may be a nice activity but isn’t why man first employed gun powder as a means of propelling a projectile down a metal tube. It was too kill.”
Uh, no. The first use of gunpowder weapons was to knock down walls.
Nice try. While I was trying to use some rhetorical flourish, the first gun was actually bamboo, and was used on the end of spear. It still started out as a personal weapon, not a seige one.
Good start, Mr. Owens.
With the amount of weapons and ammo being sold, there is also an enormous drive for firearm education.
In my area, the indoor ranges have several choices of pistols and rifles to rent and experience along with instructions about their individual peculiarities and safety features.
And with the per capita rates of firearm accidents/murders/suicides WITHIN the LEGITIMATE GUN OWNERS ranks, it illustrates that the education to these RESPONSIBLE gun owners is effective.
R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-I-L-I-T-Y
is the most important element of gun ownership.
Even though IRRESPONSIBILITY is encouraged and endorsed by many of our highest ranking legislators and politicians, LEGITIMATE GUN OWNERS are proving they are beyond the juvenile stage that these politicians are moralizing.
Just TRY owning a gun in New Jersey. The laws are so strange and they can literally vary from town to town and county to county. You could actually own a shotgun in a county in southern New Jersey and be breaking the law in a county in Northern New Jersey. Some towns are like that, too. The state does everything in its power to NOT make you own a gun. Seems that the only people who do NOT have any trouble getting a gun in this state are the criminals. May have to move to Texas one day.
The only item i would add is starting off with a good old fashioned wheel gun. Revolvers do not require other than point and shoot, while semi auto will require additional step that may be neglected when fearing for your life or fumbling in the dark. Also agree shotgun is not a wise first choice. practicing for a few years will provide familiarity with semi autos.
A quality 357 loaded with shot shell, or 9MM with hollow points will pack enough power to stop, but as already posted, pulling the trigger takes a second, living with aftermath can take the rest of your life.
That last sentence would make an excellent bumper sticker.
To annoy someone.
/rolling eyes/
A S&W .38+P Airweight for CCDW. It will always work. Every time. Unless you’re thinking you’ll take down an assailant at 20 feet, it’s fine for muggings in the mall, car jackers, etc., which all all close encounter events. It won’t stop a person dead but if you learn proper skills it’ll be all you’ll need.
For in home for defense, the shotgun is simply not a good choice. Anything that’s long enough to be easily grabbed will see you in a wrestling contest – especially if you enter a room. It’s why the military direct access folks use short barreled weapons.
The best, imho, for home defense are one like The Judge that five you a .410 in a revolver. A shotgun, regardless of choke setting, just won’t disperse much at room distances. And you, again, won’t really need more than five shots unless you live in Baghdad.
Try shooting “The Judge” in a dark room. The muzzle flash is blinding; The recoil enormous, and the debris spit out can take out your eyesight, or the eyesight of a loved one. Those things can be just as dangerous to the user as the perp.
A short barrel 22 magnum revolver practically duplicates this.
The ability to re-acquire your target is fundamental. A small caliber fragmentation round is very effective, and it doesn’t have to be +P to be lethal.
A good muzzle brake does a good job of re-directing the muzzle flash that really helps with maintaining a sight picture in low light. Can’t really call them flash suppressors ’cause that would be illegal in lots of places but at least they get a lot of the flash away from right in front of your eyes and the front sight. With a 12 ga., they also help a lot with minimizing rise, which also helps maintain a sight picture for a follow on. I have a King Armory brake on my Saiga and my Mossberg and like them a lot. That said, they do make the weapon noticably louder to the shooter by directing some of the muzzle blast back towards you.
Never saw a “Judge” with a muzzle break. The barrel is so short, I don’t think it would make any difference. A muzzle break also directs debris. If you shoot one of these things with anything less than a full arm extension, you’re asking to be wounded.
In my opinion, this gun was designed for a prop in a “Jackass” movie.
And I like this one:
I can imagine the fear experienced by a perp in a strange house, intent on stealing all the good silver, when he hears a sword being removed from it’s scabbard! Like, “What the hell was that? A sword being cocked?”
After you’re done with the series of “SO; YOU WANT TO OWN A GUN.”, Mr. Owens, there’s more ammo for you:
“SO; YOU WANT TO OWN A SWORD?”
I hear there are a lot of drive by sword victims in Somalia and Haiti.
Just sloppy writing on my part; I wasn’t really suggesting a brake for a Judge. I don’t know what I’d suggest a Judge for. We used to use .410 Snakecharmers, either the Thompson or home-grown for snake guns when I lived in the South. I think a brake is a good thing on any HD shotgun just because they are most likely to be used in the dark and flash and rise are both real issues.
The Taurus Judge is a sick joke. The .410 was never meant to be shot in somethign with such a short barrel. The .410 was designed for small game like Squirrels anyways, never for somethign the size of a man.
I recommend the Smith Airweight J-Frame in .38 Special+p for a first pistol and a good pump shotgun in 20 or 12 guage for a primary home defense weapon. And then use nothing smaller than BB shot, preferrably Buck if operpenetration is not an issue.
The Smith will make a great back-up gun if the shooter wants to upgrade later.
I have an AR Carbine loaded with hollow-points for home defense. These readily expand and overpenetrate LESS than common handguns. My primary sidearm is a Glock 19 in 9mm shooting 124gr +p Gold Dots.
If you show up in a serious Handgun class (one taught by a recognized professional like Mas Ayoob, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn and other switched-on types) you would be laughed at. Seriously. PT Barnum designed the Judge.
Personally, a short barreled hand gun is a terrible choice for anyone who has not handled it a lot, a really lot. The odds of hitting a target decline and of shooting yourself go up in direct proportion to the shortness of the weapon.
A .38 wheelgun is a pretty fair choice for an inexperienced shooter, but get a 6″ barrel, not a snubnose.
My own experience is a .45 auto- a 1911, but in an apartment building I’d consider putting the Ace (.22) device on it. But for the inexperienced shooter who’s nearly as afraid of the gun as the intruder? The shotgun, at least two shots, with appropriate load. With luck, the sight of the wrong end of a 20 guage will avoid any shooting taking place. And the racking of a pump gun may well do the job first!
Having run a pistol range for Uncle Sam, I have little faith in the average shooter to
hit much with any handgun. They can’t do it on the range, they sure won’t do it under
preasure, and with all the Hollywood prep they get, they’ll empty the thing in in about 2 seconds if they’re scared. Shotgun 1st,(pump); long barrel wheelgun 2nd?
“For in home for defense, the shotgun is simply not a good choice. Anything that’s long enough to be easily grabbed will see you in a wrestling contest – especially if you enter a room”
The advice to get a shotgun if you live close to others is advice I have heard before and personally I think it is good advice. Not only is taking gun safety good advice but it would be just as important to know how to use it in self defence, not just how to fire it. Mental prepration I think is key as well. Play out scenarios in your head before you find yourself in one. Fight or flee? If I don’t flee, how will I get to my gun, what if it jams, what if I miss, etc? Then make up your mind firmly that you won’t hesitate or second guess yourself. Make up your mind that you will shoot. Make up your mind that when you shoot, you will shoot to kill.
As for wresting matches, the mental preparation and knowing what your individual circumstances are would probably avoid that scenario. I live alone so there are no concerns about others in the house. My mental prep is that if there is an intruder and I can easily and safely just get out of the house I will. If I can’t, I won’t go looking for him. I’ll position my self, and wait. Let him come to me and I won’t be the one who is surprised when he enters the room. If you need to search the house for an intruder, I suspect there are ways to do so that would lessen the chances of getting into a wrestling match.
“Make up your mind that you will shoot. Make up your mind that when you shoot, you will shoot to kill.”
Unfortunately, it’s a bit tougher than that. I’ve actually found someone wandering around inside my house, near the front door – it was a substitute mailman (er, mailwoman) who noticed that I hadn’t taken the mail out of the mailbox for a few days, and was vaguely concerned that whoever lived in the house was ill or incapacitated. (I wasn’t, I was just too lazy to get the mail.) So; stranger in the house, but not any cause for alarm. I have had a few people try to break in my front door at night, but they all turned out to be drunks who had the wrong address. Obviously, I’m not going to shoot any of those. I HAVE cleared the house at gunpoint after a burglar broke in, but I made no secret of the fact that I was coming with my trusty Makarov (the only loaded gun I happened to have at that moment) while I searched the house systematically from one end to the other, and the perp or perps were long gone before I encountered them. (Not that I would have shot them for being in the house; I probably would have shot them if they’d attacked me after I found them, but I gave them the opportunity to skedaddle, and they took it – without managing to steal anything, either.)
In short, I have plenty of firepower at my disposal, but no great desire to use it, and (at least so far) no need to do so.
I certainly didn’t mean that you should shoot someone just because they are in your house or trying to come in through the door. I too had a drunk trying to get in to my apartment. I had the pepper spay ready but I yelled at him first and he stumbled off apologizing. Another time, guy walked up and open my screen door and start to step into the apartment. I don’t remember the conversation excatly now but I asked him what he was doing and he seemed surprised to see me and his answer was vague so I suspect he was up to no good or confused about where he was. Any way, I easily talked him out of the house basically by just telling him to leave.
Eva, you’ve been lucky.
There are more variables to individual firearms than comments here.
Some, here, want to see if they can scare you enough to wet your pants.
Whatever gun you decide on, training and familiarization condition you to become PROFICIENT AND CONFIDENT with the use of that gun.
You can practice scenarios until you are blue in the face, and the scenario you end up with, will be one you or anyone else never thought of.
Gun ownership is a journey, not a destination.
If you are ever having a discussion with a liberal who is against gun ownership or is for gun control, ask them a simple question: “Why wouldn’t you own a gun?”
I’ve found that if you push for the real answer it invariably turns out that they don’t “trust” themselves” with having a gun.
There is a fine line between offense and defense. Ever wonder why the gun using criminal felon population tends to be liberal?
How about suggesting an NRA class for newbies? That is what I did knowing nothing about firearms. I took the class together with my son who was 16 at the time. It also qualified me for a CC permit.
For some people it may be better to do that before purchasing the first gun. The instructor can help in choosing the type and where to get a good deal which can help make up the cost of the class.
Question for experts here. My son in law bought some ammunition for his .45 which is marketed as specific for home defense. They seem to be a varient of hollow point and supposedly less danger of over penetration compared to regular hollow points.
Anyone know about this? I have a .45 1911 type and am thinking about buying some.
Also if you are going to pick one to keep ready for a home defense situation would you pick 9mm or.45 as your ready gun? I have those and really dont want to buy another handgun.
Hoooey! You and the author really know how to start off a Sunday morning with a bang!
I’d try experimenting with those cartridges somewhere you can use different target material, and recover the bullets for examination.
Asking questions like that usually gets more differing replies and opinions than formats like these can (or want to) handle.
i.e.; I had a guy firing a .45 1911 next to me at the range, with target loads that made no more noise than a .32. His target was at 40 feet, and all shots were in a 1 foot circle. He reloads his own ammo.
I too use a 1911 as my personal self-defense weapon. There are several self-defense loads available:
Speer Gold Dot (my personal choice)
Federal Hydrashock
Hornady TAP FDP
Hornady Critical Defense
As to the choice between 9mm and 45, there really is no universal correct answer. There is no question that the 45 has significantly more stopping power than the 9mm. The 9mm is easier to control.
The point of hollow points is not to over penetrate. It is to mushroom into the biggest glob of lead possible to inflict the most amount of damage and potential kinetic knockdown. That is why hollow-points are recommended for home defense. I have Federal Hydra-Shock in both my SIG P220 (.45 ACP) and my wife’s Glock 19.
The primary purpose of a hollowpoint bullet is to deliver maximum energy to the intended target while minimizing over penetration and risk of collateral damage to people and property downrange which is why most law enforcement are issued HP.
As for reduced loads, shot them all the time in pistol competition. Had to install a special recoil spring in my .45 to compensate for the reduced recoil and ensure the gun reliably functioned.
A firearm intended for home defense must above all else be reliable and one you are confident in using safely and accurately. A .22 you know you can shoot is better than the finest magnum bear killer you’re afraid to fire. That said, either 9mm or .45 will suffice, a 9 generally holds more rounds, but the .45 has better stopping power. The key is to shoot your gun of choice regularly so that if you need it in a crisis it’s an old friend not a strange device you need to figure out on the fly.
Spindok;
“ENERGY” is also knock down power. A larger grain bullet traveling slower at close range (i.e. home defense) has more knock down power, and less chance of excess penetration.
Ballistics galore are available on the web.
The 1911 was designed to load and fire the .45 ACP round in full metal jacket. The feed ramp and action work best when a round with that profile is chambered.
Various hollow-point rounds have different nose profiles, and some of them do not feed reliably in a 1911 because they deviate too far from the shape of the standard FMJ ACP round. (They may work fine in other auto-loaders of .45 caliber.) Age, condition, and wear on your 1911 are also important factors.
So you should experiment a bit with different makes and models of hollow-point rounds to find one that loads reliably in your 1911. And once you find something that works well, stick to that round for self-defense use.
Thanks for the comments.
One factor is that the 9mm is an older Browning HiPower. It shoots fine but occasionaly a cartridge does not fully eject. The 1911 is new and I have only been to the range once with it. I will probably take it a few more times and then keep that one in the ready safe. You guys reminded me that I should try out whatever home defense ammo I am going to use at the range before deciding.
I also keep a magazine loaded for the .22 target pistol as Mrs Spindok is very good and comfortable with that one.
For home I also have good doors and window locks, a solid steel framed door to the bedroom, a machete next to the bed (good zombie weapon, never jams or needs a reload), and two dogs who are very good barkers.
Ever give any passing thought to MOVING?
Just show up at the Justice Department with a tan. Tell them you hate America, and you should be able to get your weapon of choice.
I know this will be controversial but a .223 AR with the right ammunition makes an excellent home defense weapon. New .223 ammunition like the WInchester PDX1 are specifically designed for home defense. With an M4 stock, attached flashlight, and red dot sight or laser, it becomes a weapon that almost anyone can be effective with.
Whatever you choose, training is crucial. I tell people they have no idea how little control they have over their hands until they start trying to shoot a handgun.
Advice to a first-time gun purchaser should focus more on the person than the firearm. A ‘first gun’ needs to be something that the owner can enjoy shooting and thereby develop some familiarity and competence with the tool. I personally like Mr. Owen’s suggestion of a 20 ga. shotgun because you can take it to a skeet range and do something pleasurable and constructive with it.
The National Association for Gun Rights, often referred to as “NAGR”, is the fastest growing gun rights group in America.
NAGR was founded in 2001 as a 501(C)4 civil rights advocacy organization designed to educate gun owners about state and federal legislation that affects their gun rights. NAGR assists the growing movement of state-level grassroots gun rights organizations, as well as organizing grassroots lobbying on state and federal legislation.
Purpose: As an advocacy group, our purpose is to educate gun owners and gun rights’ supporters on gun rights issues both at the local and federal level.
To that end, on average we spend 88% of our annual budget on communications with gun owners and our members regarding the issues at hand; and during the 2010 year, that percentage has actually increased to 94%.
Presidential Candidates and your gun rights
http://www.nationalgunrights.org/potus2012/
“The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.” George Washington
I have defended my home twice with a firearm. Once a man broke down our door over a parking dispute. I put the 20 ga in is face and held him until the police came. The second time a man broke into our house because he thought another person lived there. I used a .357 magnum and fired at him after he came in through the window. It was dark and I missed. He surrendered and the police came.
I have a secured .45 cal pistol with tactical light on each floor of my house (2). My gun safe has a tactical 20 ga shotgun with a light and the trusty .357 now with a light.
My wife and I conceal carry and we’ve been through tactical shooting courses. Neither of us will hesitate to use deadly force to protect our home and our children. I have confidence in our abilities to deal with the stress and the results.
My point is. Half measures will not work. A shotgun in the closet that you never shoot will be more a danger to you than the intruder. Get trained. Go big. Have a plan.
A spring loaded lock box, with fingertip coding, by the bed is the best method of securing a handgun in the home. Kids cannot get in unless they know the code, neither can intruders, but it’s as handy as a pistol benieth the pillow when yhou need it.
Me, I’d want to test that “fingertip key” under all conditions to see how fast it unlocks — and whether or not it opens reliably — before I’d do what it sounds like you’re doing.
I’ve had all three of mine for 15 years and they have been excellent.
You just have to practice opening it several times until it’s second nature.
Some great advice in the column and the comments. I do agree with those who advise caution, however. Owning/carrying a firearm is one thing – using it on another human being is another. Whether you’re in the right or not, if you’re a civilian, shooting someone will change your life. True, having a more complicated life is probably better than being dead at the hands of a criminal. Just remember that in our society, “self defense” isn’t as simple as you may think it is.
I’d say, make absolutely certain that your life is or is likely to be in danger before deciding to carry a weapon. Don’t go by what you read in the headlines – go by your own life experience. Is your neighborhood really getting “bad?” Do you travel through “rough” areas? Have you actually seen or heard about assaults, robberies, or burglaries taking place in your block or in areas you’re likely to visit? Are you a member of an especially vulnerable group? Do you carry cash? And is there any way you can protect yourself from harm without resorting to deadly force? Which is to say, do you *really need* a gun?
If you’re sure a firearm is the way to go, are you prepared to face the consequences of using it? Because the chances are better than even that you will be investigated by the police, arrested, and charged with something even if you think you’re in the right. Prosecutors get paid for putting people in jail. Don’t trust them. And of course the “victim” or his family can come after you with a civil suit. Those frequently end with the “good guy” paying restitution to someone who tried to rob or kill him. Do you really want to get involved with all this legal BS? Think about it before you buy – or at least before you draw your weapon.
Mr. Owens; You are one lucky man!
After perusing the responses to your FIRST in this series, your editors should leave you be for a couple of months.
Addressing the material in the comments would take at least that long.
I’m excited at the possibilities, as I’m sure you are, and I’m already anxious to read the next installment.The comments are verrrrry interrresting, entertaining, and educational, as well.
Thanks.
If you are placed into a situation which forces you to use “deadly force”, it is important that you’ve already considered the legal/moral/ethical and psychological impacts. The best training I ever had was the “Lethal Force Institute”. All the foregoing aspects were covered. The time to decide whether or not you are prepared to potentially take the life of another person is NOT when you’re face-to-face with the situation. If you’re not fully prepared at the time of the incident, you may hesitate. Hesitation may cost you your life. Otherwise, keep a baseball bat handy. One of the issues discussed at the “Lethal Force Institute” was the “twenty-one foot rule”. This rule indicates that a person who is twenty-one feet from you holding a knife/club/etc. can get to you BEFORE you can draw and fire. Don’t forget the necessity of training and familiarity with your weapon/firearm of choice. Thank God I never had to use “deadly force” during the course of my twenty-five years in law enforcement; I’ve seen the impacts on officers how did, even those who thought they were fully prepared.
Yes, Massad Ayoob at the Lethal Force Institute tells it like it is. I strongly recommend his books for anyone contemplating using a firearm in self defense, particularly “In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection” and “The Truth About Self Protection”. These two books will give you a great deal of food for thought.
Go to a gun range and get basic gun safety and fundamentals from an NRA instructor.
Home defense:
Saiga auto .410, or a .410 pump, Winchester makes/made a .410 on their lever action frame, also; use .410 defense rounds- loaded with buck and ball, or similar.
Senior citizens, women, teenagers can handle these, and it’s those people outside the fit young adult male portion of our population that must be included.
If they can handle a handgun reliably, so be it.
My opening response in gun/handgun control arguments is, “Imagine: Your mother. Seventy-two years old, widowed, and lives alone…”
In the context of this article introducing people to guns and advising on first or only guns, as much as I like my Saiga 12, I can’t recommend a Saiga shotgun to a newbie or as an only gun. There’s just too much likelihood of getting a “vodka gun” and even the good ones take a lot of tinkering and training to deal with what can be a finicky weapon. If someone really wants a mag-fed semi-auto shotgun, I think they need to spend a lot more money if it is to be their only HD weapon. I stick with my trusty old pump Mossberg 500 as the gun to grab when something goes bump in the night; the Saiga is for a zombie attack.
The Mossberg 500 is a good design, but sometimes construction quality is less than so-so. I don’t mean that the barrel will blow up on you or anything dramatic like that. But when I bought one I actually had to examine nearly a dozen in the dealer’s inventory before finding one with a barrel which would fit properly into the receiver (by “fit properly” I mean that it would go in far enough for the bolt lock to work – if fired without that engaged, the barrel will fly off). And I once bought a brand new Winchester 94 which – well, never mind, it’s a long story. And don’t start me on Rugers …
The Mossberg 500 in marine finish with polymer furniture was bought originally as my “boat gun” for a saltwater boat in Southeast Alaska. If you go ashore on the larger islands of SE AK, you are not at the top of the food chain if unarmed; there’re some really big and really agressive brown bears.
Anyway, a blued gun with wood furniture lives a short unhappy life on a saltwater boat, so I sold my 870 to a buddy who wanted it and bought the Mossy. It runs well and you don’t have to worry about messing it up.
This is one of my favorite subjects. As you can see from the replies their are as many suggestions as there are firearms types. Myself, I prefer the .40 Cal. but that’s just me. If I remember correctly the lowly .38 has killed more people and is used more often than most any other handgun caliber. Then again, even a little .22 will make just about anyone think twice about sticking around where they aren’t supposed to be.
Since we are talking about home defense, the best advice I’ve seen so far is to hunker down in one room with a firearm and a phone, call the police and pray they get there before whoever is in your home finds you and forces a shoot. A good thing about a shotgun is that if you are down behind your bed and someone tries to open your door, the sound of a pump action shotgun being readied is almost universally understood. Thanks to TV and movies, there are few people that don’t know that sound.
The big thing though is training. Learn to use what you have. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy a top of the line shotgun or handgun but can pick up something fairly cheaply that will work. It may be your dad’s old war souvenir or a gift from a friend, but learn how it works and how to use it. If it doesn’t suit you take it to a gunshop or gunshow and trade it for something you are more comfortable with. Also as said before, try to find a local NRA class. Your local gunshop should be able to direct you to one.
I tend to look at guns as tools for certain jobs, with some similarities to a chainsaw. I carry them a lot in the woods, but never in public, unless I am walking along the road, going or returning from the woods.
In Mass. there are complicated laws about how the gun has to be stored, especially if it is not always under your direct control; the distance between the weapon and the stored ammunition, trigger locks etc. I don’t have a CC permit or a handgun, but have plenty of shotguns from 410 to 12 gauge, and a .303 British, all the results of years of hunting in several states and varmint extinction I have taken a CC course recently, but have not gotten around to applying for the permit. In Mass., one can get long weapons with just an FID card, whereas the application for the CC permit is tougher with at least two levels. Having the CC weapon in an establishment where alcohol is consumed is a supposed no-no, so if yiu are entering or leaving a restaurant, what then? My CC instructor says that he always has his weapon under his direct control, because he always carries. For the rest of us, it’s not as simple. I go with an empty single-shot 20 gauge under the bed with the shells in a drawer. It’s not at all ideal for an intruder in the room, but would work for a more distant threat. All the rest are usually in the locked gun cabinet downstairs. The accessibility issue is the toughest one if you have children, or grand-children around the house AND you don’t go to bed each night thinking about your possible need for the gun.
As one gets older, having a handgun seems to make more sense, but the idea of a handgun, spooks my wife more than the other assorted long shotguns, muskets, and rifles, which during hunting season one of which often ends up unloaded, but tucked under a couple layers of hunting clothes, with the shells in the pockets down in the “hunting room.” I need to get a lock for the door of that room. The primitive firearm is safe to remain loaded, as it needs a percussion cap to set it off. Oops, mine still needs to be fired after the last season.
Forgive the rambling, but I am under the weather, and don’t have too much else to do right now.
First thing: get some serious training at a range.
Second thing: try different guns at the range where you are getting your training.
Third thing: get more training.
Thatnk you for an informative article. I don’t own a gun nor do I see myself buying one, but I have daughters. In the event that they should choose to carry or own a gun for self defense purposes, you have given a gun ignoramus good basic information to guide that will help me guide them. I look forward to reading your next article.
Mr. Owens:
You have taken the absolutely worst approach when it comes to introducing someone to guns.
You should have told the potential new gun owner to learn and internalize Col Jeff Cooper’s four rules:
A gun is always loaded until you prove otherwise. That means that every time a gun changes hands it is cleared and checked to make sure it is unloaded
Never point your gun at something you are not willing to destroy.
Know your target and what’s beyond it – if you miss where is the bullet going?
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have identified your target and know that it is safe to shoot.
To this I would add an unwritten fifth rule: If you a carry a gun it stays in the holster until you are either going to secure it or use it. No show and tell! And remember, you don’t put your gun in your pants or your person without it being put in holster that covers the trigger.
Now we can talk about what kind gun to get. A double action (DA) revolver is a good choice for a first gun. A DA revolver uses the trigger stroke to cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder. It is a long heavy trigger pull that makes it hard for you to have a negligent (not accidental) discharge. Some people don’t recommend six shooters because they only have six shots and can’t be reloaded quickly. Since most bad guys are going run even before you pull the trigger six shots are more than enough. However, if you want an automatic there are several good double action on the first pull and single action on the remaining trigger pulls (DA/SA) e.g., Any SIG-Sauer automatic and the Beretta M-9 to name a couple of manufactures.
I do not recommend a Glock to an inexperienced user because like any newbie mistakes are more likely to happen. The Glock “safe action” designs isn’t safe. All it does is keep the gun from discharging if you drop it. You don’t want to have your permit pulled because of a negligent discharge because you somehow accidentally pulled the trigger. If you want a ready to go polymer framed automatic with no mechanical safety I recommend the Springfield Armory XD/XDm series of automatics. They have a grip safety mechanism and you have to do two things wrong to make the gun go off.
Ok, now you need to know is size. When I am not out walking my two large dogs I carry a full size (5” barrel) M1911 45 automatic. I have no trouble concealing it and I barely notice that I have it. I have played golf with it and forgot it was holstered in the small of my back. My wife carries a full sized Beretta M-9 with no problems. My my doggie carry is a Springfield XD/M compact 9mm. With a 3.8” barrel length it is a good comprise between good ballistics and easy carry. Your first gun should be a compact, i.e., approximately 4” barrel give or take. I wouldn’t recommend going to a 3” barreled pocket pistol like most 380s especially if you only are going to have one gun.
Finally you need to think about a caliber. Anything less than a 9mm/380/38 is not a good self defense round if the bad guy doesn’t care or notice if he has been shot. While more people are shot and killed with a 22 long rifle chambered firearm than any other, there is a good chance that you can get shot, knifed or bludgeoned before your attacker is incapacitated. Same for 25 or 32 caliber. There is a lot mythology about how a 45 is hard to handle. That’s HS. The M1911 design with it’s weight and balance handles recoil better than some 9mm’s I have shot particularly compact and sub-compact polymers. The 40 caliber is a compromise between the two. I personally don’t like it because it is only marginally more effective than a 9 but still substandard when compared to a 45 firing the military 230 grain round.
So before you take the big step to gun ownership. Get instruction from either someone who is an experienced shooter or take a class. Think safety before you think about type, size and caliber. And go shoot few different guns if you can. And remember go to the range and shoot at least once a month so stay proficient and comfortable with your gun.
My best advice for a person looking to buy a gun is to take a very good safety course first. Then go to a gun range with a qualified gun instructor. Learn the proper way to handle a gun and learn it well. Test a number of calibers and types on guns. Don’t worry about caliber, auto or wheel gun, bullet type etc. One type is going to feel the best to you and you will do the best with it. When a shooter is matched up to his/her gun, “he” becomes lethal. It is better to be comfortable with a 22 and be good with it than to have a 44 magnum and be afraid of it. When matched up with your gun type, practice, practice, practice, until it is an extension of you. The Israeli Mossad uses a weakened 22 caliber for its work. Personally I feel most comfortable with my old police 38 Special. Buy your gun for your intended use. You can’t go hunting with a 38 Special and a 308 semi-auto rifle is too much gun for your home. I’ve heard of people buying a 12 gauge shotgun just to cock it to scare off an intruder. If you think like this, you have no business owning it. Please have a box of shells for it and know how to use it. Don’t worry about the type of shell, nobody wants to run into a blast.
If one decides to purchase a weapon, train yourself first. I can think of few other topics where misinformation, disinformation and ignorance collide as firearms. This thread is proof.
As was noted earlier, the NRA has a robust training network at low cost. Avail yourself to it. Forget everything you think you know. It is likely wrong. Know the law where you live. It is likely confusing.
If you decide to buy a firearm, practice with it.
You have fundamental right as an American to own a firearm. You have a concurrent responsibility to do so in a responsible manner.
My two cents. I have owned weapons since a boy, the traditional single shot 22 cal. I have studied the technology of small arms, as an engineer, e.g. ballistics, recoil, twist ratios, rate of fire, trajectories, for military weapons, including terminal ballistics (what happens inside a human body). I spent 4 + years learning how to kill a human with my hands, feet, fingers and toes, earned a black belt. (Never used these skills except against a St. Bernard dog, gone berserk in a drug store.) I know and compared notes with US police champions, expert witnesses in firearms, thirty year veteran cops.
In priority for selecting a weapon, I recount my Sensi, a tenth degree black belt, who had put a number of warriors in their graves. He always taught the first white belt class, and drove home one point: you are here to learn how to kill. Go to a quiet place, church, synagogue, mosque, or bar, and consider this hard truth. Then come back to get your refund, or begin a life time of study. There are many reasons to own a weapon, but this is the bedrock, to take life. In the ongoing struggle against evil, this is the reason for the Second Amendment to our Constitution, and religion.
The second truth is knowledge, if you do not learn, you are ignorant, and that can be fatal in the use of weapons. You may die, your loved ones may die, or an innocent, who you had no intention of harming, may die.
Different situations, on an isolated farm, hunting is woodlands, or over large bodies of water, or killing one man in an urban setting, or a mob, require different technologies (weapon and associated cartridge, propellant and projectile.)
People who have been in combat rarely remember the recoil, or even the blast. They only remember that they survived. Except in war, the first shot normally defines the outcome. So a defensive weapon should be the most powerful choice you can skillfully handle, with learned confidence.
Evert thing you ever learned from TV or the movies is dead wrong. Learn.
Simplifying the very complex, I recommend, even for normal sized ladies, a 12 Ga. pump shotgun and grit propellant, for most settings, particularly the home. Kids and situations will dominate the choice. That “Clack Clack”, chambering a round, is the universal language to all assailants. Those who do not flee, are lethally dangerous, or stupid. Police, if they have a second, will grab one.
I would avoid all center fire “deer” rifles unless you are expert, as some here are. The bullet can go through a house into the neighbor’s house, down the street.
The above were good comments.
“There are many reasons to own a weapon, but this is the bedrock, to take life.”
ALL weapons are tools to facilitate forcible domination of an interpersonal situation. This is why “strategic” weapons, although they may never be used, are still weapons, even if they never hurt anyone. (I consider it tendentious and misleading to refer to tools, including guns, intended for hunting, target shooting, or display as “weapons”, even though many people do, apparently without devoting much thought to the question.)
PERFECTO!
Any gun without ammunition CANNOT be labeled a deadly weapon any more than a baseball bat.
I leave the distinction between a gun and a weapon to a Marine DI. My comments pertain solely to fighting to the death, with lawful civilian implements, designed for one purpose, defense of life. All other legal purposes, are secondary to this right and responsibility.
S&W makes the old M-60 in stainless steel with a 3″ or 5″ barrel in .357 Magnum.
You can buy laser sights for it.
It has adjustable sights so it’s able to be considered a target pistol instead of ant-personnel with fixed sights.
It comes in .38 Spl or .357 Mag I’d go with the 357 because then you can use both the magnum rounds and the .38 spl. Load it with 148 gr midrange wadcutters for action inside 7 yards, the wad cutters will travel about 700 fps and are comfortable for women to shoot. Wad cutters do not over penetrate much but will still do the job on the perp.
After the perp is down and your standing before a judge you say “Sir, I was accosted by this hood, I had to defend me and my family with my little target revolver loaded with target wad cutters.
Then no one can say you showed Malice aforethought by using the newest man killing whizbang killozap hollow points.
For those with the .45 ACP look into the full metal jacket expanding point bullets now out. looks like ball acts like ball until it strikes flesh then expands.
A .410 slug has the energy level of a .38 spl Round nose lead bullet fired from a 5 inch barrel. A face full of bird shot should stop all activity from the perp blinding and blasting his ears out. One shot to each knee will also.
good luck.
Check out the website called “The Box of Truth.”
Just a couple more points from me. I’ve seen many of you suggesting a wheelgun. I do too but, some people have trouble with the stiff trigger pull required. Make sure you can work it before you trust your life to it. Possibly practice using it as a single action, cocking it before firing but be careful letting the hammer back down if you don’t shoot. A good instructor will know what I’m talking about and can show you a lot better than I can tell you. Most gunshops will let you dryfire a gun you are thinking about buying. Try it first to make sure. If you decide to go with a semiauto, make sure you can easily work the slide and again, make sure if you go with a double action, that you can work the trigger. Also find out where the safety is on the silly thing and how it works. First time I fired a double action semi it scared the heck out of me when I put the safety on and the hammer fell!
Second, I see one or two talking about reloading. This is fine for target shooting or hunting or what not but if an anti-gun prosecutor finds out you were using reloads he could use that to try to portray you as some kind of gun nut that loads up special killer bullets. Best to stick with a good reliable factory loaded rounds.
Reloading is for any gun owner that enjoys their guns as a “SPORT”. Reloading is one more enjoyable FACET of the COMPLETE “SPORT”.
I haven’t seen the story line where some poor dude is convicted of murder for shooting an intruder with his own reloads, but, since it is out in the ether, it won’t be long.
That idea could even make a good reality show.
What about the reloader that kills his wife and kids because he was careless with his reloading components? And the explosion caused a fire that ignited the garage with hazardous chemicals, and now the entire neighborhood has been evacuated until the hazmat team can make sure it is safe for human habitation………………………………………………Congress calls a Special Session to address this tragedy……………………..More, “HOT-EYEBALL” News at eleven .
“I’ve seen many of you suggesting a wheelgun. I do too but, some people have trouble with the stiff trigger pull required.”
I’m not sure that we can say that as a rule. Some of them have pretty miserable trigger pulls, for sure. On the other hand, the rush of the police to switch to autos over the past twenty years or so has put a lot of used police trade-in revolvers on the market. Some of these 50 year old Colts and Smith & Wessons have trigger actions slicker than catfish in vaseline – much better than the pulls on the standard new DA auto, though of course with longer trigger pulls than SA autos.
Basically, the only important trigger pull is the one on YOUR gun, whatever type it is. Find one which suits you.
“Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples’ liberty’s teeth.”
George Washington
Nice quote, but can you source it? I don’t think that GW ever said it. But it sure sounds good, eh?
Are you going to buy it and a box of ammo and stick it in the back of the closet for “just in case”?
If you do this and a time comes when you need that .410 you will most likely fail. Some training and practice will reduce to odds of failure.
Thankyou for an informative article. I don’t own a gun nor do I see myself buying one for myself, but I have daughters. In the event that they should choose to carry or own a gun for self defense purposes when they come of age, you have given a gun ignoramus like me good basic information that will help me, guide them. I look forward to reading your next article.
From the GREAT WHITE NORTH (Canada)…..
Pay heed to the comments about the legal consequences of self defence.
Here in Canada, self defence is a de facto criminal offence. In the circumstance of a home invasion you have the right…nay the duty…to if possible open your back door and RUN AWAY. If you should prevail over the intruder even bare handed you are in deep dodo.
Yes registration does lead to confiscation….the “LONG GUN REGISTRY” has been legistlated out of business but the hoplophobes succeeded in getting an injunction to delay/stop the effects of an ACT OF PARLIAMENT with ROYAL ASSENT.
This madness, inspired many here to consider emigrating to the US…until about 2008….nuf said….that’s yer problem.
From a tactical prospective, I subscribe to the bigger the better…but then I live alone (with dog)in an old farmhouse.
Back in the day, I made acquaintance with a coupla fellas from Rhodesia….
The one fella was out partridge hunting and encountered a leopard….with only a “16 bore” with birdshot, he avoided a confrontation but the leopard charged regardless….he held fire until mid-spring and put both barrels into the head….apparently the leopard stopped like he had hit a wall….point blank shot size is irrelevant….He was 14 at the time….
One thing to keep in mind….Conservatives make choices….Lefties…everything
from their choice of meal entre, to wardrobe….everything…. is a political decision….facts and logic be damned.
Eh; Canadians can’t come to the U.S. to fire rental guns. It’s a felony if you don’t get a permit.
I am a 130lb 63yr old female, and I would not recommend a .410 or 20ga. I recommend a 12 ga. You dont have to be accurate, the heavy gun (mine is a Browning Lightening Citori O/U) weighs 8lbs. It is well balanced and easy to shoulder, very little recoil. The lighter the gun, the more the kick. I have shot a lightweight small frame 9mm hand gun that knocked the crap out of my thumb, but my Sig 9mm, smooth as silk. On a long gun, especially shot gun, avoid a semi auto. They are the best single shot shotguns made, if you get my drift. Remington 870 wingmaster, 12ga, pump — economical, smooth, lovely gun. Good wedding gift.
You made someone a wonderful bride, didn’t you? My Aunt just turned 60 and when I go back to Colorado we go out and shoot her Chzech made Kalashnikov, and her myriad of pistols. She also has a 12 guage, and a .308. Women who like guns are so much more fun.
Also, I have a Sig P220. When I first fired a friend’s, I decided I had to have one. I’ve fired a lot of pistols, semi-automatic and revolver; I own a Glock 19 (wife’s gun) and a S&W 586 .357, and no gun every fit my hand so well. It is indeed “smooth as silk.”
One added benefit of a Pump Action 12 Gauge is the fact that it makes a distinctive sound.
There are ‘bad guys’ in this world that will jump you undeterred if you wave a .357 Magnum in their face, who will suddenly decide they have better things to do in a house somewhere else immediatly upon hearing that distinctive sound of a 12 Gauge Pump.
You really should Just Shut Up.
This is a dangerous myth. At typical home-defense ranges, there is not enough distance for the shot pattern to expand. You are essentially shooting a slug. This requires just as much accuracy as a rifle or pistol.
Even shot which is purposely made to increase pattern expansion rapidly will not disperse enough at such short ranges to make a difference.
When life is on the line accuracy is required.
You want to join the gun culture? Get a decent .22 and learn good shooting habits. Once you have mastered the .22, you’ll be able to make more informed choices about what guns and calibers you’d like for personal defense, competition, range fun, what have you.
Question about home intruders: I’ve heard they generally do not carry fire arms in order to avoid the big sentence that comes from being arrested while stealing a television or something. True? Anybody know what percentage of home intruders are carrying?
Regarding revolvers: If you have a semi-auto, are you not advised to switch rounds from one mag to another, leaving some mags empty to give R&R time to the spring?
Strikes me that somebody interested solely in HD might be lazy in that regard, making it dicey to depend on a semi-auto which has been loaded for a year and a half. Revolvers, no problem.
I got out of the Infantry forty-plus years ago and we didn’t worry about such things. In this area of discussion, I may as well be a rookie.
Cheaply made magazines /might/ compress. That sort of magazine is going to have other problems, like jamming all the time. A quality magazine is not going to have compression problems. Ever.
“Anybody know what percentage of home intruders are carrying?”
Here in Ohio, most home intrusions occur in the major city areas, notably the “3C Cities” of Columbus (state capital), Cincinnati, and Cleveland. All of which have very strict anti-gun laws and are constantly fighting with the state over its pre-emption laws on gun ownership and concealed-carry, which they keep refusing to recognize no matter how many court cases they lose over the issue.
With that in mind, the fact is that most intrusions in those jurisdictions are armed home invasions. The reason is that the intruders fall into two categories. They are either drug gang types looking to attack “competitors”, and who rarely bother to get the right address. Or they are robbers who, instead of burglarizing a residence when the owners are away, force their way in while the owners are there so they can force the owners to open safes, etc., for them. Thereby avoiding alerting alarm companies, and the police.
In the suburbs of all three cities, the news for the last several years has been the number of such home invaders injured or killed by armed homeowners who simply will not submit to being terrorized at the point of a knife or a gun. In the 3C cities, gun-wielding homecrashers are the predominate type- for which those cities naturally blame the “unenlightened primitives” outside their islands of blue superiority. They don’t want to talk about their local murder rates, as you might expect.
DAs in all three often gnash their teeth at their inability to prosecute homeowners in their suburbs who use deadly force in these situations, due to Ohio’s “castle law”. They liked the older laws, which basically demanded that the homeowner retreat or even flee their property rather than confront the invader.
Those laws were superseded when the legislature noticed that people who fled tended to “flee” right into the arms of the invaders’ accomplices, who were waiting outside the house to grab them as they tried to escape. It apparently hadn’t previously occurred to the lawmakers that lawbreakers read the Ohio Revised Code, too.
The old model of criminals who sought to avoid confronting their victims is long gone, for the most part. Partly due to changes in security technology, but also due to a change in the mindset of the lawbreakers. Who are in it for the thrills as much as for the money, and who often terrorize, harm, or kill just for the sheer hell of it. And in at least some cases, due to an unreasoning hatred of anyone remotely different from themselves.
As Jeff Cooper once said, “The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.”
cheers
eon
There were few tears shed here when a couple of months back, three young toughs, minority of course, invaded a mobile home in one of Anchorage’s less than stellar areas. At gunpoint they forced the occupant, thought by many, rightfully it turned out, to be a drug dealer/grower to open his safe for them. He submitted and went to the safe from which he removed the pistol he kept there and killed two of them, thus saving the cops and court system a lot of time and money. I suspect the guy would have just buried them in the back yard or dumped them somewhere hadn’t the third one run screaming to a nearby gas station, the attendent of which called the cops. Stupid criminal tricks! Far as I know, the cops just looked the other way about the drugs. Whatever they did didn’t get any notice.
Essentially everyone here is armed, if not for HD then with hunting weapons and “bear insurance” weapons, which of course work as well for HD but with some liability issues. But we do have both brazen and stupid gangstas and wannabes who like to rob houses, mostly for drugs and guns. The first key to avoid robbery is to make it impossible for the bad guys to know whether you’re home or not. Our car is always in the garage and the door is always closed so the car in the driveway isn’t an indicator. I have various lights on motion detectors, timers, or photocells so you can’t tell that way. Most houses here are heavily insulated and have few and small windows, or if they have large windows at all, they have them on the street or view side and the rest of the house has minimum egress windows. The double and triple pane windows are hard to break without a tool, also a noisy enterprise. Most houses have metal/foam or fiberglass insulated doors with deadbolts; they can be kicked open since most have wood frames, but you’ll make a Helluva racket doing it. I try to always keep them locked, but I have a wife and a stepson who are constitutionally incapable of locking a door (or turn off a light). The construction of houses makes them very quiet, so there’s the downside of you not being able to hear someone approach, but the upside is they can’t hear the usual cues of the house being quiet or the sound of a TV or other indicia of occupancy.
Like the situation of the unfortunate Mr. Zimmerman, the key is knowing your neighborhood and looking out your windows. I live in a pretty upscale neighborhood. There are a few kids with slammed rice rockets, but it’s the expensive kind of slamming, so you can distinguish them from the gangsta rice rockets, plus if they live in the neighborhood, you know who they are. There are no Chrysler 300Cs, Escalades, or big ’70s-’80s sedans in my neighborhood with illegally dark tint and 22s, and if I see one, I know that somebody is up to no good – the same reaction Mr. Z had to a black punk in a hoody in the wrong place. If I see one cruising slowly by, I decide to sit in front of my streetside windows casually “cleaning” my Saiga 12. They might make one more cruise by, but they won’t stop and they won’t be back. ‘Course, there might be the one who is stupid enough to feel lucky.
With all due respect, I suggest that you stick to what you know and let self defense professionals advise on ‘first gun purchases” for self defense.
Eon has great points.
Do what I do. Live in the country with no neighbors for at least a half mile. Put your 45-70 beside the bed, a 40 on the nightstand, a 9 on the end table by your recliner and a 45 everywhere else. One in the truck, one in the garage, one in the bathroom and last but not least, one in the fridge!! Cold powder burns just fine.
I keep some of my more commonly-used ammo in the fridge. The sturdy wire shelves are handy, but the really great thing is that little light which goes on when you open the door.
1. Most people’s priorities are misplaced. FIRST, get training. For those with no previous firearms experience. I recommend NRA First Steps. THEN try some different firearms and get a good-quality firearm that appeals to you.
2. Dick Cheney shot his hunting partner IN THE FACE with birdshot, and the partner was only superficially injured.
3. I met a lady at a gun show, about 5’9″ tall and weighing no more than ~110 lbs. She carried a S&W 686 .357 magnum. At the firing range she frequented she enjoyed approaching guys with and asking to shoot it. I was there when she fired someone’s Desert Eagle .50. Her comment afterward: “Is that all?” Moral: within larger limits than most think, ladies can handle whatever they believe they can handle.
I don’t know for sure, someone would have to share the scientific numbers, but it is my experience that a .50 cal Desert Eagle has less recoil absorbed by the shooter than a 686. I have a 586, the blue version, and I’ve shot a friends .50 DE on a couple of occasions. There is no other recoil buffer for the revolver than your wrist, this is not true for the Desert Eagle.
Bingo.
Thank you, Mariner. Your post is a breath of fresh-acually-knows-what-he’s-talking-about air in a sea of gun store commando BS.
Best advice for people new to guns – whatever you do, don’t buy a Glock. While they aren’t inherently dangerous, they are less tolerant of mistakes than any other weapon, which is why cops have so many accidental discharges.
Get a double action revolver, a .38 Special and use the so called FBI load. It’s the best combination of ease of use, safety, reliability, and stopping power.
I could not agree more, with both paragraphs. The Glock trigger is not for newbies, and maybe not even for oldbies. The .38 Special is absolutely fail-safe, with the only downside being the cartridge capacity –which means you can’t really use ‘suppressing’ fire unless you’re certain you have time to reload. If you want to be able to fire a half dozen warning shots and still be loaded, better get one of the 15 shot 9′s. But for safety and reliability, the .38 can’t be beat –plus with the short barrel & the small grip it’ll drop in a jeans pocket easily, a back pocket and it’s hidden and handy.
One place the Glock is useful is if the user lacks hand strength, due to age or other factors. My late mother, a lifelong shooter (she taught me to shoot), had decreasing hand strength in her later years, and instead of her old reliable .38 Colt Police Positive Special, she opted for a Glock .40. Because instead of the Colt’s 11-pound double-action trigger, she had a 6-pound pull after first depressing the trigger safety.
She was perfectly safe with the Glock trigger, because she always practiced what she taught me, starting at age 3; Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target. (I even did it with squirt guns and toy cap pistols.)
Good advice for anybody, really.
cheers
eon
Can’t argue too much with that, eon –Glock sells a passle of them thangs –it is a matter of taste, i guess, in the end, rather than anything inherent in that spectacularly dangerous trigger safety –
Hogwash. They are no less tolerant of mistakes than any other weapon.
The reason cops have so many negligent (note the correct word) discharges with them is that they are currently the most widely used gun in law enforcement and cops are poorly trained, with few caring about anything more than basic qualification.
I wonder how many of the folks making these comments have either
A. Been in combat, or
B. Been in any other sort of gun fight, or
C. Been in a gun fight in an close, enclosed space.
It’s pretty clear that almost none have such experience.
My advice to noobs who want to have a gun at home is first to take the NRA Safety Course or their state’s Hunter Safety Course. Next, find someone to coach them as they learn to shoot, probably with rented firearms. Learn to handle both handguns and long guns. Safely. Learn what they can shoot well.
After, becoming comfortable with firearms, select the type(s) that best fit their situation.
For most folks who don’t want to have shooting a hobby, I wind up recommending a pair of revolvers, a .38 Special and a companion .22LR on the same size frame for inexpensive practice, and a 20 ga pump shotgun with a 24 in or shorter barrel. Ammunition depends on the environment. That’s a typical set of recommendations, but one size doesn’t fit all.
FWIW, a .38 and a 20 ga are what we keep on Mrs. Hoge’s side of the bed. There’s a .45 and an M1 carbine in the bedroom as well.
Does about 800# of Brown Bear sow busting out of the willows and alders at about 20 yds. count?
know your potential targets and fields of fire.
out here no worries (with shotgun) about going through someone elses house and high potential to need to stop vehicles too.
no perfect ammo but centurion amm823 is best all around for my needs.
W.J.J.,
I was one of Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children. I spent 10 years in and one of them, 1969, was in Vietnam. So, yeah, I’ve been shot at. I got my first real gun, a 410 when I was 9 years old. The next year I got a .22. A friend of the family, a WWII Marine Vet taught me how to handle them and also about gun safety. In High School I took two years of ROTC and we had M1 Garands to drill with. While in the Corps I played with anything from an M16 on up to a .50 Cal. With stops along the way to fam fire a .45, an M60,an M79 grenade launcher, a flame thrower and a LAAW plus other things. I’ve also been through a Battalion level Staff and Officer NBC training course. I was one of the idiots that sat in the gas chamber yelling at the boots to take their gas masks off and then to make sure they got out.
My nephew was also in the Corps and married a Japanese girl. While they were dating he brought her over here to meet the parents. They spent the first few days visiting friends and sightseeing at all the regular tourist traps. Near the end of their visit we all got together to go to the range. She about lost it when we started dragging guns out of closets and drawers to get ready to go. She was game and fired everything we handed her. From flintlock to an M1 Garand. She even managed to shoulder and fire a percussion rifle that was taller than she was. She later told my nephew she had more fun that one day on the range than she did at Disney World.
SWEEEEEEEEET!
As my first Muay Thai instructor, who was also a pistol instructor for the Virgina Beach police, said “Trigger time is happy time.” So true.
LOL –sending this to my son and his Japanese bride –who likewise will not even look at a firearm –which around here unfortunately doesn’t lend her very many spots to rest a gaze –
Comments above need to be repeated. At a distance of twenty feet, or less (your normal size room) someone with a knife can usually cut you before you can get a shot off with a gun in your holster, or lying on a table beside you. Do not stick a gun out at arms length if your target is fairly close. Hold it beside your chest wall.
That said, a short barrel revolver in .38 cal. with rubber Hogue grips, with light loads, is a great home defense handgun. I still prefer the .20 guage pump for a long gun in my home. As mentioned previously, the sound of a round being chambered is unmistakable.
Practice, practice, practice until handling your firearm is second nature. Dry firing (without ammunition) modern weapons doesn’t hurt them. Get some professional training. Read your local laws regarding self defense. Think ahead….about what you would do, how you would do it, what you would, or would not say to the 9-1-1 dispatcher (as mentioned above) and the police (name, date of birth and request to contact an attorney) if you are in a shooting situation and immdiatly GET A LAWYER before answering questions.
I retired with fifty years in law enforcement and I’ve seen how quickly things can spiral out of control, totally accidentally. Don’t become a victim while trying to save yourself, or others. And expect to be investigated to the inth degree and possibly crucified by the intruder’s friends, family and in the media
Sound advice.
BEST COMMENT SO FAR!
Yep; the “twenty foot” rule.
Interestingly, even in martial arts training, this is relevant. From time to time the folks at my Tae Kwon Do club like to run interesting exercises. I mentioned the “twenty foot” rule to the head instructor and he thought it a cool idea to try some scenarios.
Pretty much EVERY time, a fit and hyped “assailant” easily covered that distance before the “victim” had a chance to draw a rubber knife out of their belts.
Another thing that came from some other training if the pistol is held out in a classic Weaver stance, a close assailant can knock it sideways and then strike you before you recover.
1. Distance is good.
2. Hold the pistol close to your body so the intruder/assailant cannot see it clearly or grab it.(this can be tricky if you are packing a S&W 29 or similar) Additionally, you retain an unobstructed view of the situation.
3. However, you need to PRACTICE shooting with the gun held in that position, and practice with the ammo you are going to use and in ALL light conditions.
4. Make sure you have a good lawyer.
YouTube has several videos on the 7-yard rule (that’s what I call it). IMHO this is the best one.
Actually, it’s the 21 foot rule, also known as the Tueller Drill, after Dennis Tueller, the Salt Lake City cop who proved that a person 21 feet away, holding a knife, can stick it in you before you can draw your weapon (based on average reaction times).
IIRC, he was a Lieutenant at the time.
As a family, we are recent arrivals to the shooting sports (only over the last several year). I grew up in the city without access to guns of any sort. My wife grew up in the country with a father who taught them all to shoot, though not very well.
Today, I, my spouse, and all our children are comfortable and responsible around guns. However, we know that friends will come over, so everything is padlocked and put away in a safe. We have no intentions of using these firearms for self defense. They’re strictly for hunting and shooting sports.
We visit the gun club on most weekends except in the dead of winter and in the heat of summer; All of us; As a family. Both my wife and I are certified instructors. We own a .22 for dispatching pests such as groundhogs, a 20 gauge semi-auto, and a 12 gauge pump action. I like to take my kids bow hunting as well.
I sincerely hope our part of the world never gets so bad that we would consider sleeping next to a loaded gun. But if it does, everyone in this household knows how to use these guns, and we’re all competent shots.
If you’re buying a firearm, it would be wise to consider all the risks and responsibilities there are to owning one. Among other things, owning a weapon should also mean you know how to use it comfortably and effectively. Should the time comes to use one, you should not be flustered. Only regular practice can ensure that.
In other words, don’t buy a gun unless you are prepared to keep in practice using it. People who keep guns around that they rarely practice with scare me. The situation where using a gun is reasonable is stressful enough. Don’t add to that stress by not having lots of muscle memory and practice using the gun.
When I ran across the title of this post, I thought, “oh goodie, some valuable insight.” Perhaps the follow-ups will be less disappointing. The first question should be: For what specific purpose do you want to own a weapon?
To set the stage, I am someone who is seriously in the market for my first firearm. But unlike Bob’s hypothetical, am not someone unfamiliar with firearms – I just have never owned my own. My best friend in central Illinois during elementary school was the son of an avid hunter – he loaded his own shells – in the early 70’s. “Scott’s” father took me along many times – we were in the same Cub Scout troop. From pellet to 22 to 410, I learned how to shoot, and the requisite respect for the firearm I had in my hands. And due to boyhood curiosity, I learned to respect that black powder that made those firearms so deadly.
Later in life, in fact when working myself through college in Western Colorado, one group of friends (from the work side – turns out I was a damn good carpenter) were also avid hunters – even some on the left would call gun-nuts; 30-30s, ought 6s 7mm’s, 38s, 357s, 9mms, 45s, 12&10ga… I fired them all – even an illegal Stein.
But still I have never owned my own.
In the past three plus years though, I have come to realize that I ought to possess some firearms, and for a number of reasons. Mostly that our current government seems driven to restrict that ownership. Then I realized that our country is close to falling apart and I might need to protect myself, and fend for myself. And that naturally includes hunting for my own food sources.
So at first I was thinking home defense. A 20ga short barrel seemed right for that. Then the thought “what about when I am traveling”, a 9mm seemed the right choice. Then the curious idea, “what happens if I really intend to hunt with these firearms?” Well obviously a long barrel 12ga and an ought 6. But then the thoughts came, “how practical would a single shot high powered round be in a ‘zombie’ like confrontation?
So what first started with a deciscion between an 18” pump 20ga and a 9mm has transformed to “what I really need are 5 to 7 firearms.”
Due to a unexpected $2500 auto rebuild, I have not purchased anything. Yet I am still thinking:
A short barrel 410 or 20ga for home defense.
A long barrel 20 or 12ga for fowl.
A compact 357 for CCW
A 30-30 for ‘zombie warfare’, a durable brush gun
An 30.06 for serious big game hunting.
A 9mm, .40, or .45 for all those Hollywood situations. (and just for the fun of it as well…)
As I said, I have fired numerous firearms. Yet I still am clueless about what is best for what I want. 5 months ago I was certain that it was the S&W MP 9mm. Now I like the .40 better just because I think the ammo is more abundant. After talking with the local gun shop, perhaps a 357 compact should be the first. And yet I’m still partial to long barrels.
Perhaps you, or your readers can help me Bob.
I prefer the old reliable .38 Special and for an auto I’d reach for a .45. 12 gauge is a fine bird gun and also great defensive weapon. As for a long gun, you can take your pick. Make sure that it is accurate functions well and it would be nice if it could have a scope. You don’t need a 30-30 and a 06. Either choice is plenty good. Also for a long gun there are some other great shooters out there. You might also try a .243 or a .308. They are both good guns and fun to shoot. Remember that you can always go to a gun range and ask questions. Most people are friendly and will tell you the pros and cons of what they are shooting.
I’m interested in finding out more about the .270. I’d appreciate any input on them.
The new .270 WSM is supposedly closer to the .308 than the standard .270, which is in the same category as .308 but a bit lesser in performance as well as potential availability (.270 is actually an older model, dates from the early 1920s). The 30-30 and the 30.06 are far from either/or, in fact only alike in caliber –the 30.06 is ‘high velocity’ –a far more powerful cartridge in every respect. 30-30 is your nice friendly shorter-range ‘brush’ gun –
As someone who is involved in training law enforcement officers in firearms, I am always asked theis question: “What’s the best gun for home defense?” The answer is simple: any twelve gauge pump shotgun with an 18″ barrel. You want to keep the gun in the condition we call “patrol ready”, the shells in the magazine and the trigger pulled on an empty chamber. Should you hear a noise at night, all you do is pick up the gun and rack a round into the chamber. There is no other noise in the world like this, and every bad guy knows what it sounds like and will immediately exit the premises.
This does two things: first you really don’t want to shoot the bad guy, you just want him to leave. Second if he still keeps coming, you have a presumptive defense that you you gave him warning (by racking the gun) and he still came after you, and if he does, you have enough stopping power to put him down.
Again, the LAST thing you want to do is shoot someone. Better to give him the warning that he’s facing a large weapon and get him out of the house. And then follow the second rule of gunfighting: bring the biggest gun to the fight.
You make the popular mistake of thinking that the first rule of gunfight is bring a gun. That’s wrong. The first rule of a gunfight is don’t get into a gunfight. Just ask George Zimmerman.
George Zimmerman brought a gun to a fistfight. However, having it may have saved his life; we shall see.
I had a .22 cal. Saturday night special that cost me about $20. It was accurate enough for me to shoot beer bottles out of the sky on the fly. I also had a 22. magnum six shooter revolver that could shoot a small tree in half. Both of them were lost when my stupid dope-smoking son threw them out in the woods on Paris Mountain while being chased by the Greenville County Sheriff. Both of them would have been pretty good for home defense. Put a .22 in someone’s nose and pull the trigger. It will bounce around in their skull and leave no brains working.
If I might add to your scenario:
The bullet ricochets around in the skull, like a hockey puck, before it comes in contact with any Homo sapiens mental activity.
There’s an enormous amount of artistic tolerance being employed in the comments here.
And, there’s a significant number of commenters that cannot qualify for a even gun possession under any of the States’ statutes.
New shooters have no idea what attributes are necessary in a self-defense weapon. The best course of action regarding your first gun purchase is to get training. You do not need your own firearm for this since the instructors will have many guns available.
Your first course should be a gun safety course. Any one will do so long as it includes handling of common handgun, rifle, and shotgun actions.
“Self-defense” is a term that includes many subskills. Shooting is merely one. Other very important topics are awareness, pre-attack indicators, managing the police, general tactics, handling malfunctions, reloading, movement and so forth. Mindset is the most important topic.
The second course should be any “Level 1″ defensive handgun course. If your first gun is a shotgun, then attend a two day defensive shotgun course. There is much to learn about shotguns and using one in a self-defense situation has nothing to do with any hunting skills you may have.
The new shooter will have some idea regarding desirable and undesirable attributes of a self-defense weapon after the “Level 1″ course. He or she should then consider making that first purchase.
The third course should likely be any “Level 2″ defensive handgun course (or equivalent long gun course).
Finally, seek out an extreme close quarters gun fighting course. Such courses will combine hand to hand techniques with a handgun. These are critical skills since the gun is typically not the correct answer when the criminal is within eight feet of you.
Learning self-defense style shooting is not difficult. The difficult part is becoming proficient in all the associated skills that most people believe unimportant.
Thanks for writing this. I am among many who are fearful for our nation’s future and are contemplating the idea of becoming first-time gun owners. If the gun-grabbing Commie Pinko Democrats retain or increase their power in November, it’ll definitely be time to buy a gun during those last few months they’re still legal.
PLEASE; DON’T WAIT THAT LONG!
The privilege to buy will be insurmountable by then.
As usual the comments here have descended into the “look how much I know” category. Don’t buy one gun, buy two. Either a 38 caliber revolver or Taurus judge for personal defense, and a shotgun with both bird and slug barrels for hunting and home defense.
SO……..!
Do you recommend the “flash-bang” grenade for home defense?
How about the registered “karate chop”?
Perhaps the chihuahua with K-9 certification?
Hey, ‘Geez, don’t take those chihuahuas lightly. I grew up with one who could take on 3 German Shepherds, and win!
He was a little terror!
(Actually, I suspect the daddy of this “purebred” was a Boston Terrier, but that’s a story for another day.
)
Mr. Owens;
I sincerely hope you can get Dr. Victor Davis Hansons attention with these entries.
He has some serious problems with criminal intrusion on his property.
A .22 rifle. Bolt action, open sights. If you are feeling randy, get a lever action. But definitely not a semi-auto. It will provide for a fun day plinking, hunting small game, and in a pinch, scaring away a bad person. It should be like a spare pair of shoes, sitting in your closet. Just avoid buying into the high-cap, shotgun toting, laser sight paranioa that infects too many gun owners. Guns are fun!!! Start there. I think that was the author’s point. Oh, and buy a used one from a pawn shop if you want the whole experience.
Oh, for God’s sake, Eva, just go shoot some guns, and sidestep the testosterone waterfalls here. It’s almost as bad as estrogen lake.
Try a .22, a 38, a 9mm, a .40, a .45, whatever you can convince your friends or local gun shops or local gun ranges to “loan” to you at the firing line. Find out what feels right to you.
Concealment, especially for women, is MUCH tougher than it is for men, so your options are limited right there if you intend to carry. But regardless, the gun you want in hand is whatever gun you shoot best under pressure. A .22 is absolutely fine if you can reliably hit a ping-pong ball on demand and stress. Few of us can do that, so most move towards larger firearms, but the old rule applies–carry the largest gun you can RELIABLY HIT WITH. That’s it. There’s no point carrying something larger, just because someone told you that your lower caliber sucks. If you can’t hit with the heavier caliber, what’s the point? (Note, however, that your ability to hit with the heavier caliber will likely change with time, experience, and growing expertise, if you work at it.)
Regardless, good luck, and keep in mind that it’s much less about the tool than it is about the person wielding the tool. A gun is almost always better than a knife, but once you get into gradients of guns, well . . . I don’t see anybody volunteering to be shot six times by a .22 long rifle revolver in order to make their point about caliber.)
You do what you can . . . it’s all any of us can do.
For god’s sakes, Boston, the idea that you can still defend yourself regardless of type of gun or ammo is what I’ve been trying to get more people to talk about and that has been the point of most of my comments. A lot of the comments here have been confusing of those who may not be familiar with the subject. I myself am not particularly confused but getting a weapon is a big deal and a lot of comments here have not been helpful. As I said earlier, yes the best advice is to go try some guns out at a range which I plan to do.
This question has been heavily covered on gun specific blogs, which all agree that your first gun should be a Glock 19 or 17 (9mm). Nothing to see here move along.
One thing I learned from my local gun shop (the guy is a CCW instructor), it that without extensive training, a dependable revolver is far better. First, if you are in a situation where more than 6 rounds are required, the training is far more important than the weapon. Second, a revolver is damn near indestructible. And third, a revolver is a very simple weapon. While he carries a SW MP45 in his shop, he recommends a compact 357 for personal defense and CCW (here in CO, my business and my car are viewed, legally, as my home – with several municipal variations).
And for folks that are primarily looking for home defense, he recommends a 18″ pump action 20ga. After a dog, a home alarm system, the cock of one is the best deterrent to foolish miscreants.
But then, I dont own a gun yet. But this fellow has been one of my best resources (and will get my business once I build up disposable incomes after a auto repair).
Yes, the gun store commandos all agree….
Well, no, they don’t, and people who know what they’re talking about certainly don’t all tell newbies to go out and buy a Glock.
Buy a safe and have it bolted down. You don’t have to keep them in it when your home… but when you are away it will keep them from being stolen.
seems there are always two different subjects that get confused when gun-talk turns to the beginners ‘first gun’ subject
and the self-defense device, about which there is much discussion – and a lot of that is situational, city, urban, rural, country –
first learning arm – a rifle in .22, I prefer my nice little Browning lever action tube fed – filled with the very lightest rounds I can get, no recoil, very little noise, no ear protection needed, cheap to shoot a lot in the back yard – my situation is hilly woods – country, no neighbors within sight, plenty of hills as a back-stop – that all makes it very easy – more urban areas and the need to use a licensed range, can add difficulty.
there are also air rifles – i don’t use them as the .22 lever with very light rounds makes the same noise, and is very easy and reliable. get familiar with that, and then heavier loads, and small scopes -and hearing protection and you can learn about firearms and aiming out to 50 or more yards – you also learn to clean and maintain and how to handle various mechanical problems.
2nd learning arm – a revolver in .22lr – same cheap ammunition, but you then learn to use a handgun
all this basic familiarity and knowledge with low upfront and use costs, will then help a lot if and when you transition to more powerful arms. Plus, you can use them for training others, as well as always enjoy them for casual quiet low-cost plinking.
another alternative for professional beginner training – http://www.appleseedinfo.org
Having accomplished a 100% effective home defense, and competed 27 years of shooting lots guns big and small [105mm down to 5.56 mm] for a living, I offer the following observations:
Training and range practice are important to learn safe and effective gun handling – and they are a lot of fun to boot – but they are not as important as knowing how gun defense works.
The overwhelming majority of gun defenses by U.S. citizens (around 90% of over 1.5 million per year) DO NOT INVOLVE DISCHARGE OF ANY FIREARMS because Criminals RUN from armed victims. Here is how it went for me.
At 2AM I heard glass breaking downstairs. I grabbed the loaded shotgun by the bed (we had no small children in those days] and went to the top of the stairs. I the dim light, I made out two figures in the moonlit back yard and saw a hand coming through the broken french doors to work the knob from the inside.
I said nothing, but I let them know I was armed and ready by racking a round into the chamber of my pump-action shotgun. This declared to all present in the Universal Language of Firearms that this was the The Wrong Place To Break Into. As in many of the other cases I mentioned, simply showing a gun [not even pointing it] was enough to win the engagement.
Muffled expletives of surprise and dismay were followed by frantic retreating footfalls and the sounds of the hasty opening of the gate into the back alley. This 100% success included no shooting, no blood and guts to clean up, no holes in any walls, no cops, no paperwork, no lawyers, and no repeat visits by any other criminals [they are not mad and they usually tell all of their friends exactly what happened].
I was prepared to escalate, but did not have to. As far as fear and panic are concerned, they are a great deal easier to handle when you have a loaded gun in your hands. In some movies, the criminal might advance toward the armed, but frightened victim and then wrest the gun away from them. In the Real World, they immediately run [almost always] or get shot at and then run [99% of the remainder of the cases] or become deceased[less than 1% of the cases, a handful]
They very act of arming oneself changes both the external and internal situation to an amazing extent.
I have to agree with you. Most cases of gun use don’t involve pulling the trigger. I avoided a mugging in Las Vegas with my 380. I was in a dark parking lot at one of the casinos when I noticed that I was being followed. There was no question of their intention and it was an oops situation for the two Hispanics. They knew I meant business and left as fast as they could.
yep – i agree with you OldFan –
a person who is confident, and experienced, and determine due to that confidence and experience, very rarely has to actually fire – in civilian situations
gaining that experience and confidence seems to be the intent of this thread.
and the proof is there – i live in a State with the least amount of restrictive gun laws, the most amount of guns per household, the highest amount of home training, and thus the lowest amount of actual home break-ins,defensive fire, wounding, injury, death — the idea you expressed is why.
My advice for people who are determined to buy a gun for home defense, and don’t want all that ‘gun culture’ nonsense like classes and having to ‘like guns’, or be all Rambo about it;
Buy whatever looks menacing to you at the counter.
Take it home and file the front sight off.
That way it won’t hurt so bad when the burglar shoves it up your a**.
That’s the same advice given here to people who want a handgun for “bear insurance.”
I lost my gun in the middle of a river I was crossing when my canoe overturned, you know. Which caliber was it? I can’t remember. Before we get too proud of our firearms, and divulge too much info to others, be aware that the National Security Agency is reading all of these posts and making digital records of them. There is no free speech on the internet anymore. Comrades Obama and Holder are coming for your guns as soon as Obama can get re-elected. ABO2012
Wow, great article and great comments!
I did want to share that my first handgun purchase was a Kahr PWC 9mm that was small enough for concealed carry and had a wonderful trigger pull, but the recoil made it a difficult “first gun”. I ended up branching out and getting other guns like a Ruger SP101 in .357 mag and eventually I found my way to Springfield Armory’s XDm 9 (full size and subcompact) which are the 9mms I have stuck with… as far as comfort and shootability they are great. I sold the Kahr to a friend.
In any case, it is very important to learn, practice, study more, contemplate, practice, and take classes and avail yourself of all the information out there. You can provide for safety and security, peace of mind (through preparation), and fun with target shooting if you prepare and take it seriously. My first CHL class was with a police office who I liken to being in the presence of Aristotle or Plato – the man thought A LOT about ethics, morality, and what should and should not be… and we definitely want an informed and competent populace that is responsible and able to handle various scenarios with sound morality and clear thinking.
I do appreciate all the materials available to study and learn from, including this article. Thank you.
Cybergeezer, you are correct. His information is VERY out of date.
Birdshot is for birds. Any round with enough power to be effective against an intruder is going to be powerful enough to penetrate at least one wall if you miss. If it’s not going to penetrate a wall, it’s not likely to injure an attacker enough to stop him if he’s determined or on certain drugs, especially if he’s also wearing heavy clothing (cold weather, leather jacket, etc.).
The best bet is a centerfire handgun in a caliber of .38 Spl or .380ACP or larger. Pick the largest caliber that you can fire both accurately and comfortably. PRACTICE OFTEN! Use hollowpoints for best effect and to avoid overpenetrating the attacker.
Know the layout of your home, what is behind each wall, and what would be a good firing position to avoid hitting things you don’t want to hit if you miss the attacker. Think things out ahead of time, and if you have family, especially kids, make sure they have and know a plan so that you have an idea where they will be and what they will do if something happens.
For those concerned about recoil, try a metal-framed pistol in .380ACP like the Bersa Thunder, Walther PPK, or similar. There is enough mass in those to help tame the recoil of that lighter cartridge without making the gun too heavy.
Again, PRACTICE, and practice OFTEN! Shot placement is more important than caliber – even though the reverse is far more common, the lowly .22 has been known to kill instantly with one shot and people have survived a full magazine of the mighty .45ACP. It all depends on where the bullet enters the body and what it does once it’s inside.
Above all, if you find after some practice that the first gun you buy is too much for you to handle, or that you can handle more, or you just don’t like it for some reason, don’t be afraid to trade it in for something else later!
Practice not only the safe handling skills, but also you own personal attitude.
Most long time gun owners, or people who grew up among them, know what I mean.
But for the first time “adult” purchaser, who is gaining their first ever experiences with firearms, which particular gun to choose is a whole lot less important than upping the RAM on that command/control software between your ears….
Elevate yourself. Think of yourself as a (necessarily) more responsible, calmer, more consequence oriented person than your average joe. Be more forward thinking, more mature, more risk aware, than you ever saw yourself as before.
Imagine the morally strongest, most intelligent and responsible person (or even character) you’ve ever admired, and try to see yourself as one of his Peers. Imagine being worthy of their trust. Cool. Level Headed. Unflappable. Confident. Reliable in a crisis, without panic AND without over-reacting. Think of what that would take, and do your best to BE that kind of person.
Forever.
Because things change when you become armed, ESPECIALLY if you decide to carry a firearm on your person as you go about your daily business.
I dont believe in “mandatory” training (read: government required) for gun owners any more than I believe in “mandatory” training for parents. Its your right to have as many kids as you want, but its your RESPONSIBILITY to BE a decent parent, and leave all kinds of “teenage” immaturity, drama and behaviors’ at the curb.
Good character and discipline will lead to better decisions. Like the concern for your neighbors would cause you to THINK about what weapon/ammunition combination would be “most responsible” for the situations you prepare for.
Like how the proper attitude can PREVENT you from needlessly exposing yourself to risk, road rage, insult, and “wuder-you-lookin-at” attitudes, where misunderstandings and conflicts could arise.
Like realizing how your guns can be a liability, and that “handgun in the nightstand” might be better off on your person, than sitting alone (and unsecured) in an empty house. Not that you EXPECT to get mugged at Starbucks, by why walk in to a burglar who has your pistol? Why allow it to kill the next Bodega Owner if you could prevent it? And if you DO decide to carry it as you walk out the door, be aware of how its presence now changes….everything.
Hardware and ballistics are important, no doubt. It takes knowledge to make decisions regarding them.
But don’t forget the software upgrade first.
Thats the jist my initial convesations with “students” new to firearms.
Unlike women, with guns you can always trade one forty-four for two twenty-twos.
HA HA!
You may WANT TO all ya want…
But its them tight little Rim Fire cartridges you mention that have the biggest say in the matter.
Most often, they’ll keep to the same range, .25, .32 …creepy weird old 45/70′s from the black powder days (like us!) grosses them out with “recoil”….unless we have the “bling-ing-ist” gun safe around, that is!
As suggested before, take a training course from a qualified instructor. Most any gunshop can recommend one. A very important part of the course should be your state and local gun laws. Find out for sure exactly what you can and can’t do with your new firearm. Your best bet is to seek out an NRA certified instructor. They themselves have to go through a pretty tough course to get that certification.
Okay, been reading through some of the replies I missed earlier. One was a comment on a 9mm FMJ going straight through a target. This is by design. The Geneva Convention stipulates that full metal jackets must be standard issue ammo as such things as hollowpoint bullets were considered inhumane. The hollowpoint would expand on contact and cause very grievous wounds as the FMJ would just pass through without too much damage if not a fatal hit. Yeah, didn’t make much sense to me either but you know, don’t want to hurt the bad guy too much.
Now, about hollowpoints. One drawback to them for you Yankees among us is that if they have to go through heavy, layered clothing the nose can and often does fill up with cloth and doesn’t expand. See comment on FMJ. For summer shooting or down here in the south they are fine. This leads us to stopping power. A larger caliber will hit harder and make a bigger hole but at the expense of velocity and penetration. A smaller caliber doesn’t pack quite the punch but moves a lot faster and tends to penetrate farther in the target or even beyond.
As to what gun to buy? Sure, I can shoot a Desert Eagle but would I want to carry it around on me, even if I could figure out how to conceal the thing? You’d be surprised how fast those things start to drag on you. Match the weight of whatever you buy to the rounds that are easiest for you to control and still give you the results you want.
A friend had a nice little S&W Chiefs Special but even the lightest .38 Special loads would bother her when she shot it so she seldom wanted to practice. One day we were at the range and I handed her some .38 short Colt rounds. After the first round she lit up and ran through all the rounds I had and made me promise I would bring more next time. Once we cleaned her pistol she reloaded it with .38 Special rounds for home defense.
First firearm I purchased was a Mossberg 12 gauge – the Spousal Unit was working out of the country, the Progeny & I were alone on 5 acres, sooooooo – funny thing, took the Progeny to ‘fam fire’ “Ms. Mossberg” – she didn’t like the recoil, so stated that she would just grab it by the barrel & use it as a club. Several years later, after she had lived in New Orleans with no means of defending herself, she suddenly understood my comment at the time of initial shooting that one doesn’t bring a club to a gunfight ………………….
Two & a half years ago, for our “big” Christmas gifts, the Spousal Unit & I got Bersa semi autos – a .40 for him, a .380 for me. I like my .380, but for whatever reason, I’m NOT allowed to use it as a ‘duty weapon’ as a commissioned security officer {that’s OK, that’s what ankle holsters are for
} – I’d like to get a Springfield XD 9mm, but have heard all kinds of complaints about 9 mils. The Spousal Unit is a former USMC DI, but really HATES taking me shooting and having to teach me – he wants me to be trained/coached by someone else …………………… he’s REALLY anxious for me to get my CCW, since I already carry a knife – he wants ‘bragging rights’ that his wife is the only woman he knows who carries a knife {with a razor-style blade} and a pistol ………………….
Semper Fi’
DM
Diamond Mair,
You do realize a .380 is nothing more than a 9mm short don’t you? The projectile is the same diameter but the .380 uses a lighter weight round and a shorter case. Most of the complaints you hear about the 9mm come from the bigger is better crowd. The 9mm has served many of our allies and enemies well through many wars and is now our Military’s caliber of choice. There is nothing wrong with it and it gives you a heavier bullet and more powder for more stopping power than your .380 in a not much bigger package. It does have more kick to it but with the right pistol should not be a problem.
PS: I’ve had two little Bersas, one in 9mm and one in .40. Nice little guns but I figured out how to disable the magazine safety so that I could shoot without a mag in the gun.
That was a purely political choice. The 9mm is marginal for defensive use.
But then, ALL handgun cartridges are marginal for defensive use.
Perry, yeah, when we first got the .40 & .380, had a he##uva time finding ammunition for mine – someone @ the time suggested 9mm short, & ‘The Gunny’ {ie, the Spousal Unit} agreed that it was usable ………………… .380 became more available, so I never had to try it. Per the Gunny, a firearm is best if it’s caliber starts with a “4″
Unfortunately for me, we were supposed to be the first series of BAMs {Beautiful American Marines
Be NICE, Marines! 
} through USMC boot camp to fam fire weapons, back in 1977 – not all of our DIs were qualified, though, so I never received the formal training.
Ummmm, if you shot without a mag in the gun, weren’t you limiting yourself to one shot at a time?
Semper Fi’
DM
Diamond, here’s some good reading for you. Mr. Farnam is an instructor of instructors, and knows whereof he speaks.
John Farnam’s commentary.
Thank you for that link, Mark – I can see what I’ll be reading, in between keeping up on more generalized news
Semper Fi’
DM
I mean no disrespect but I always find caliber discussions humorous. I think most of the posts are from people that have been to gun range but have never actually hunted/killed anything. I don’t care what kind of insane maniac you are – if you get shot with a .22 it’s not gonna just “sting” a little like a BB gun. It’s gonna penetrate and if it hits a vital area you are gonna go down. I grew up on a farm. I’ve seen a .22 short drop a cow and it was dead before it hit the ground. So you can imagine what anything above a .22 is going to do. It’s a far larger piece of lead. The only real consideration you may need to take is wall penetration and even then 98% of the time it’s not even an issue – it’s only an issue if you live in a Condo or Apartment where you share a wall with a neighbor. Adjoining bedrooms? Nah. You know where your family is. The best gun and the best caliber is the one you have in your hands when an intruder stops by. Let’s stop with the stupid caliber debates. Don’t believe me? I dare you to put on a coat, jeans, whatever heavy clothes you want and let someone shoot you with a .22 Didn’t think so…
I’d tell a newbie to get a simple revolver like a .38 caliber Taurus or Ruger – fewer moving parts to go wrong and less recoil than a shotgun. Take a self defense with a gun class (the NRA class is good), one that includes range time and legal issues. Spend time at the range regularly until you can reliably hit the center of mass of a target 25 – 30 feet away. Then load your revolver with a frangible bullet like a Glaser for self-protection. No overpenetration and no shotshell spray pattern to worry about. A little more trouble than spray and pray with a shotgun and you won’t get the freeze-in-your-tracks ratchet sound of a pump action shotgun, but you also won’t have to worry about someone grabbing a long barrel.
Or take a self-defense class before you buy a gun. Your instructor should supply a .22 pistol or revolver for you to use and you’ll find out if you even want to own a gun. But you might find out shooting paper targets is fun and you will meet some really nice people.
In all the talk of FMJ vs. HP bullets, I’m a bit surprised no one has mentioned frangibles (until now, that is). The History Channel recently aired an interesting show about the history of bullets; it showed how a frangible round essentially disintegrates when it strikes a hard surface. That at least eliminates the hazards of ricochets and wall penetration. Both my guns are loaded with HP rounds when not practicing at the range; I may get some frangibles as well.
Regarding the problem of shooting through heavy winter clothing: Many gun owners say they alternate FMJ and HP in the same magazine to compensate. Here in Florida that scenario happens 2-3 times a year on average.
Frangibles don’t perform well on live targets.
The penetration issue with hollow points and heavy clothing has been solved by CorBon. See their line of ammo. Very effective at penetrating multiple layers of clothing, and still expanding reliably.
WARNING! Have your sound down or off when you click on the link – the page opens with the sound of gunfire.
jd wrote:
First of all, your challenge is incoherent. Whether your statements are correct or not (they’re not) has nothing to do with the “viewpoint”. They are correct, or not. Viewpoint cannot change that.
As to WHERE you are incorrect, I don’t have time to go into all of it. I’ll take just ONE example (out of many).
This one ludicrous statement shows that you know very little about firearms, and nothing about junior-high school physics.
I’m not normally so hard on people who post things on the Internet, but your advice is DANGEROUS.
You really should Just Shut UP!