So You Want To Own a Gun (Part Two)
With our initial installment, we discussed how people come about wanting to own their own firearm, and the pivotal question for all first-time purchasers: “What do you want to be able to do with your gun?”
The answers are as varied as the people considering gun ownership. You may want to be able to protect yourself and others in an insecure world; you may be nurturing a desire to master the skill of marksmanship. Possibly, the competitor in you desires to push yourself and to excel in one of many shooting sports. Or maybe, it’s just: “That looks fun and I want to do it.”
You know what? That’s perfect. As long as you want to do it safely.
Whatever your specific interest, there are several ways to ease yourself into the world of shooting if this is your first experience with firearms. The path I’d recommend to inexperienced shooters starts with a formal beginner’s class. These classes focus on demystifying the mechanics of firearms while simultaneously imparting the essential rules of gun safety.
The NRA’s Home Firearm Safety course is a great non-shooting foundational class that aspires to impart “basic knowledge, skills, and to explain the attitude necessary for the safe handling and storage of firearms and ammunition in the home.” It’s like the classroom portion of driver’s ed — such a class starts you off on the right path, putting safety first. Even if you later decide that you don’t want to own a gun, you leave prepared with knowledge of gun safety, and that’s never a bad thing. In an ideal world, every novice would take such a basic gun safety course (either the recommended NRA course or something comparable).
Next, ideally you would spend some range time with a friendly, knowledgeable, and patient instructor who has various firearms for you to try out and is willing to show you how firearms work and teach you basic shooting techniques.
You might be surprised to find your own circle of friends could lead to contact with someone who may be able to satisfy some or all of those goals. If you don’t find such a shooting buddy, you can find gun ranges in most civilized parts of the country, where you can rent firearms (particularly handguns) and try them out.
Firearms are built with different goals in mind, and no one gun can do all things. At this point, you need to start narrowing down your goals and individual circumstances, as these are ultimately going to inform the purchase of your first gun.
If your eventual goal is to obtain a concealed carry permit or to obtain a handgun for personal protection or sport, the course of action I’d suggest is to first look at a handgun chambered in .22 Long Rifle (.22 LR). The .22 LR is an inexpensive, low recoil, and relatively quiet cartridge that allows shooters of every skill level to focus on the fundamental skills of shooting without being distracted by the kick or noise of larger-caliber weapons. I’d advise trying out both revolvers and semi-automatic pistols to decide which appeals to you, which feels more comfortable in your hand, and which has controls that you can manipulate.
At this point, you may notice a very loud wailing and gnashing of teeth around you. In all likelihood, that is the multitude of handgun shooters crying out in anguish at the mention of “.22 LR” in any proximity to a discussion of concealed carry and defensive handguns. Their complaints are not without merit — the conventional wisdom is that the smallest acceptable cartridge for self-defense is a .380 ACP in a pistol or a .38 Special in a revolver. I’m not disagreeing with that sentiment at all.
I’m suggesting you’ll learn faster, and often without imparting many bad habits you have to overcome later, if you learn your fundamentals with a .22 handgun. It’s all about the fundamentals. Even advanced courses boil down to learning to use the fundamentals more efficiently to promote accurate shooting. As former Delta Force operator and noted weapons trainer Larry Vickers has noted: “Speed is fine. Accuracy is final.”
I remember at Fort Dix actually shooting BB guns at tossed metal slugs (size of a nickle) in basic training. Good for hand-eye coordination.
Shooting 105′s at Fort Sill was more fun though as long as you stuck cigaret filters in your ears.
Forward Observer, Enjoy the Sport of Kings and Second Lieutenants.
I spent a couple of learning engagements at Sill back in the day when they were burning off 105mm and 75mms overstocks.
Artillery is fine but not quite compatible with the hallway twixt bedroom and front hall. Probably dating myself by remembering the assigned gun crew individual weapon was the M1 Carbine, .30cal, and old standby 1911 ACP when you earned the bars on the shoulder.
My firearms education started much earlier at age seven with a single shot .22 restricted to .22 Short, standard velocity ammo. All the competative shops in town sold shorts for 22-23 cents a box of fifty, long rifles were closer to 30 cents, a factor in the depression days of the thirties. I’ve carried and used nearly everything from an Astra .22 short vest pocket auto to the 1911 .45 Colt auto. As in all endeavors, start small, master basics, make choices based on what you wish to acomplish.
Old Timer,
Got a funny beer story (for some other time) about Rival DI’s, one from Arty, and one from Infantry…
Off topic, but you’d get a kick I’m sure.
Too long to tell here (wouldnt make the edit, I’ll bet)
Semper Fi!
To make that long story short I’ll tell you why I became an Field Artillery Officer. We got to ride in the truck!
As you will be able to see, there are a lot of unscientific tests done on various calibers using cinder block and concrete. None seem in the least definitive:
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ARAB_enUS440US448&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=video+9mm+vs+45+cinder+block
Anyhow, I’ve settled on a 45 for carry. Better over- than under-powered in my view. Must admit though that my double stack is harder to conceal. Perhaps it is just my Army nostalgia at work. I miss the bugle calls too.
“As former Delta Force operator and noted weapons trainer Larry Vickers has noted: “Speed is fine. Accuracy is final.”
If you use artillery you don’t have to be that accurate. “One artillery battery is worth a thousand muskets” – William Tecumseh Sherman.
Never bring a pistol or rifle to an artillery duel.
Tactics are more important than weapons….
Mortars and Artillery dont work that well in jungles and forests. If the enemy has none, but you do, then expect them to be found in places that you’d prefer not to go.
The Cong had no airforce, but they did have balls. No fear of getting in CLOSE and bear hugging a platoon or a company with small arms, while our response was cover and call (arty/air). Somtimes, they were too close for us to make use of it at all, and suddenly we were “even-steven”, and the more motivated/aggressive side generally won that fight
(hint: that was their plan, but it wasnt ours, so who gets the upper hand?)
Metphorically speaking of course, extrapolate this into the “civilian” world:
A rifle for self defense in our typically “tight” places isnt automatically the best choice. Public rest rooms, hallways, garages, bedrooms and backyard patios…anywhere someone can get close to you.
If they get hold of that muzzle, its probably gonna be on the longer side that “lever” you’re holding, and a simple locked elbow on their part will keep it clear long enough to do you some harm. Sure, a round rifed might make them flinch, but you ARE responsible for where that one ends up arent you? Got neighbors? Maybe kids in the next room or upstairs?
Rifles are for the offense, or for defense when you have some DEPTH. Most of us dont have multiple foxholes with intesecting lanes of fire to hold the bad guys at bay from the effective range of our ammo (and marksmanship ability) everywhere we roam. And for us, shooting at people who are “rifle range” distances away, is a pretty tough sell to The Man when the smoke clears.
Pistols for defense is the way to go for most of us. Stuff typically happens up close.
And speed is JUST AS important as accuracy.
If you can put half magazine into a single ragged thumb-size hole,
you can/should be shooting FASTER THAN THAT.
Especially, if all you have is a .22 LR
“Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.” Or so we were taught. Only hits count.
Extremely basic question :
1) How much do the most common types of handguns cost?
2) How much do bullets cost?
3) Are there more advanced types of handguns to buy, that have advanced electronics (fingerprint safety checks, laser sights, etc.)?
4) For all of you who own guns for home defense, do you not also own at least light kevlar jackets? I mean, that would make sense, and is pretty affordable. If not, why not?
Extremely basic question :
1) How much do the most common types of handguns cost?
A1) For 22 lr pistols you’re looking at anywhere around $150 to $300.
For most popular defensive calibers you’re looking at around $500 for semi-autos or $600-650 for revolvers.
Competition Pistols can cost you somewhere north of $800 to $1000.
2) How much do bullets cost?
A2) The cost varies very widely. You’d be better off checking sites like cheaperthandirt.com or going to a store to ask.
3) Are there more advanced types of handguns to buy, that have advanced electronics (fingerprint safety checks, laser sights, etc.)?
A3) Most of these attachments would be considered aftermarket and installed on the gun separately.
4) For all of you who own guns for home defense, do you not also own at least light kevlar jackets? I mean, that would make sense, and is pretty affordable. If not, why not?
A4) There are (sadly) a lot of regulations regarding bulletproof items (almost as much as there are regulations regarding guns).
The merchandise IS out there yes but it’s also heavily regulated.
As for the “Kevlar vest at home” question, I doubt you’d be wearing it 24/7, so just think:
Which is faster when a threat presents itself:
A) Reaching for, then PUTTING ON, some type of garment to ward of bullets, which requires BOTH hands to do AND blocks your vision when you slip it over your head…plus, even when worn, it still leaves your FACE and HEAD exposed, and does nothing to deter a plain old ass-whooping or skull smashing with a baseball bat or tire iron. All it does is provide SOME protection to SOME internal organs inside YOU. It wont prevent your wife or child from being harmed by this assailant.
B) Reaching for a gun, and orienting the muzzle towards the threat.
No Snark or offense to the questioner is meant by these comments (the only “stupid” question is the one you dont ask) but if you walk through the pro-con implications of most A verses B options, one USUALLY makes a lot more sense in terms of efficiency and chances of success.
Applies to most things (taxing your way to prosperity, growing fuel from plants, Gun control, CCW and self defense laws etc. etc.)
Some things are (or become) “self evident” with a little honest Q and A
There are worse things than using a .22LR pistol to defend yourself; not carrying anything at all for example. Nobody wants to be shot with any caliber gun, and a .22LR can be lethel and effective at close range. Wouldn’t recommend one as a self-defense weapon as a general thing, but if the person is infirm or elderly and that’s all they can handle, I’d say go for it.
A .22 cal almost killed Reagan, after bouncing off his limo.
Yep.
A hit with a .22 is far better than a miss with a .44, and that 2″ sunbbie .22 that you have with you is far more effective than that Judge .410 that you left at home because it hurts to shoot it.
I sold my .357 due to tendonitis and now carry a .22 revolver and use long rifle hollow points. I am an excellent shot and don’t mind aiming for the forehead. I’m not responsible for killing anyone that isn’t threatening me and am very comfortable with my choice.
“not carrying anything at all for example”…..Wouldn’t that be nice, not having to arm yourself?
Any one who carries (yes, I do), really wishes there wasn’t a need for it.
Whenever someones says “why do you have to carry?”
I ask them:
Why dont you wear handcuffs all time?
I mean, shouldnt EVERYONE wear handcuffs, you know, so NO ONE could ever get punched?
What else in the world IS there, to STOP you from punching me, any time you want?
Its just too risky.
Put these on, it will make me feel safer, because I dont trust you
Whenever someones says “why do you have to carry?”
I answer: “Because I can’t carry a cop.”
When they say, “That’s stupid”
I answer, “When seconds count, police are minutes away.”
If they don’t get it after that, it’s hopeless.
And yes, I am armed with something and with the mindsset to use it if necessary at all times.
In choosing a handgun for a young or inexperienced shooter, I would suggest that you consider a Ruger single six with two cylinders; one for the regular 22 (such as the .22 long rifle),and the other for the .22 magnum shell with a slighter larger case.
The longer barrel .22 magnum will be as effective as a snub nose .38 special for stopping and killing power(kinetic energy, approximately). This makes the firearm economical to shoot and great for the personal defense use for a college kid in his apartment.
A Single Six would be a bad choice, IMHO, unless you practiced with it a LOT. In a stressful situation, such as having a bad guy in your house, chances are you’re going to be yanking on the trigger wondering why the damn gun won’t fire. Stick with a double action revolver.
Most .22 LR bullets are about 40 grain. There is a round called Sniper Sub-Sonic with bullet weight of 60 grain. Even with the heavier bullet, the SSS will cycle in semi-automatic. It will do some damage. To be sure, at longer range, there is more bullet drop, which means you adjust the elevation some.
no thanks, I’ll stick with Federal Hydra-Shok, .45 caliber…just sayin…
“Speed is fine. Accuracy is final.”
Or as someone else said,
“Nobody won a gunfight by missing first.”
For those that want light recoil and more power than a 22 long rifle there is the 22 magnum or 32 H&R Special.
Correction: I meant 32 H&R Magnum.
I’m cheaper than smart sometimes…
I never recommend .25, .32, or .380 to anyone,
just cause its to darn expensive to shoot enough to get “good” with.
9mm being so cheap and commonplace, I’d rather have folks shoot more and get USED to a little more recoil, than have something more “comfortable” they dont practice with.
I’ve seen a box of .25 or .380 go for 28 bucks at ‘the only game in town”, when 9mm can be found for 6-8 bucks if you buy a case.
I recommend a little less concealability and “comfort” at those price points!
True enough, most times. For general carry, my own choice is the forty. Small enough to be comfy for everyday carry, yet strong enough to hit hard. Shot placement is still critical, as always. NUT.. there is ONE use for which I’ve thus far not found a better answer than the .380 ACP. I am an avid road cyclist (push bike, no motor), and cannot find anything small enough to pack in the jersey pocket than a .380. It disappears into the right rear jersey pocket, always at the ready (I considered packing it in the bag on the bike…. but what if I’ve somehow been “unhorsed”?) No, I want it ON MY PERSON at all times. besides, whenever I go into a place, I don’t want to leave the bike outside, pistol in the bag, unguarded….
I tried the Ruger LCP first, it is fine, small enough, kicks worse than any of my forties, but alright. The slide rusted badly from al the sweat, so I bought a Kahr .380 in stainless. Same size, basically, and it won’t rust. On the bike is the ONLY place I carry this.. and I do NOT like to shoot either. Any larger caliber just won’t fit into that space…. though I’ve recently read of two new nines that are tiny… SIG, and Kimber both have new ones out, which I shall examine anon……
I carry Kahr 9mm, 7 shot single stack, stainless. Early one from 10 years ago?
Small/slim enough to go anywhere for me, except in a thong I guess..recoil is no problem..I even crashed a few bikes (motorcycles) and it didnt cripple me landing on it or “get tossed” so its like my right hand.
“No, I want it ON MY PERSON at all times. besides, whenever I go into a place, I don’t want to leave the bike outside, pistol in the bag, unguarded”
Couldnt agree more…90% of the time I holster up when leaving the house, its because I refuse to leave it “unattended” in the nightstand, and I’m too lazy to put it in the safe.
Better with me than not. Changes my behavior…I’m a much more pleasant and accomodating man when armed, due to the liabilities.
Wrote a novena or two on how being armed gebnerally improves the character of good people.
Excellent advice. Starting with a .22 Cal with little recoil and relatively mild boom and flash is less intimidating, particularly for women. Yeah, yeah, I know that all you Rambos will go right to a .44 Mag. And the .22 is inexpensive encouraging lots of practice. If you can accurately shoot a .22, you will be able to handle anythng else. I would also suggest that the first gun not be a semi-automatic. Start with a revolver.
Dad has a Ruger MK II .22 LR target pistol that my 15 yr. old daughter loves. She can hit an empty .22 ammo box from 10 yards 9 out of 10. She wants me to buy it from him. HA. That firearm is one of the best at retaining value. It costs more than my .40!
I’d never own a .44 strictly because it’s, for me, too big and too expensive. I like shooting my friends every once in a while, but we have to sell something to afford the ammo.
I’ve taken a rash of crap for my Taurus .40 Compact, but I can hit a man size target at 15 yards in 1 second from a hip draw. Hope I never have to hit a man shaped target…..
A .22 LR to the head is better than a .380 to the torso. The .22 won’t have sufficient velocity once it penetrates the skull and will bounce around until it’s made a grey mash out of the attacker’s brain.
I was told to take a stout razor blade and tap an X on the soft noses. Not enough to create feed problems, just enough start the deformation on impact.
Don’t.
1. It’s useless. This is just a typical gun-store-commando myth.
2. It looks bad to juries if you’ve modified ammo or weapons. You get painted as a Rambo type.
Massad Ayoob just wrote about that issue recently (I think it was in Combat Handguns mag). He’s been involved as an expert witness in more court cases than most people, and he’s never seen a case where a modified weapon (custom trigger, bobbed hammer, etc.) was NOT used by the prosecution to try to persuade the jury that the shooter was a Rambo just looking for an excuse to shoot somebody.
Standard guns and ammunition will do their part, if the shooter does his. THere’s no benefit to doing home-made modifications.
Agreed, and mightily…
The first “concealed off duty” weapon that I actually TRAINED with realistically, was a borrowed Tel-tec in the late ’80′s…
A real “piece of junk” I would never have owned myself, but I needed an extremly concealable “micro pistol” for part of an Exectutive Protection course, and I didnt own one of the appropriate size at the time.
I was worried with its “horrible” trigger and “disgustingly cheap” sights (Non-adjustable rear! Non-dovetailed front, just a molded part of the slide!) I would be “handicapped”…my tastes and level of “expertise” were just not met with this lowly clunker.
Low and behold, after a week (well, maybe the first day) of fast, realistic draws, drills and decisions with this “embarassing little toy”, none of the pistols alleged shorcommings mattered, not one teeny bit.
Trigger pull was “nonexistant”, I either shot or I didnt shoot. Nothing in the lockwork influenced speed, accuracy or control under those conditions. Ditto for the sights, as posture and presentation controlled everything, sights were just a mild reference if I even noticed them at all. Many drills used no “line of sight” between gun and eyes at all, as in shooting across your body while pushing the protectee down and away. You dont look at your hands when you cast a fly rod, so you can send bullets where you want them to go without ever seeing them too.
This beat-up, stock, out of the box “junk” performed flawlessly…it ate what I fed it without a hickup (unless purposely induced for training) and convinced the elitist “.45 guy” in me that a 9mm isnt just adequate, its downright preferable in some situations.
I found what I “like” in a gun at the range, verses “what will work, anywhere”, is a stock handgun, with no second guess liability issues either.
Gun-store-commando hogwash.
This is only true in the rare circumstance that the bullet goes through the eye of someone.
Otherwise it won’t penetrate the skull.
I dunno about that…
Seen plenty of suicides with .22 pistols.
Entrance and exit wounds straight across.
Statistically speaking, the .22 Long Rifle, standard velocity, 40-grain round-nosed lead bullet is at the bottom of the “one-shot stop” ladder, getting the job done with one center hit about 50% of the time.
That isn’t as bad as it sounds, as (also statistically speaking) NO pistol or rifle round does worse that 50%. Even the lowly .22 Short will do the job with one center hit half the time, as will such supposed “wimp” cartridges as the .25 ACP or .32 ACP full-metal-jackets.
This data has been around for almost thirty years, thanks to experts like Evan Marshall, Edward Sanow, and Dr. Martin Fackler, but it’s amazing how many shooters are still unaware of it, clinging to “stopping-power formulas” conceived before anyone had actually done any systematic research.
Before anyone says “Thompson-Lagarde Committee”, I’ve actually read that report from 1909. It stated the results of shooting bullocks in a slaughter house as; There was no appreciable difference in how long it took the animal to collapse, no matter what size or weight or velocity of bullet was being tested. All took about a minute or two to go down. The one exception was one inadvertently shot through the aorta, which collapsed and died in about twenty seconds. The bullet that did the deed? A 7.65mm Parabellum (.30 Luger) FMJ.
Thompson, LaGarde, & Co. recommended that the Army focus more on pistol marksmanship rather than worrying about caliber. The Ordnance Board rejected their recommendation (more time spent on pistol practice= more money needed for same= less time and money for rifle practice), and opted for a .45 caliber automatic pistol because “that’s how it’s always been done”.
By the way, after action reports from World War Two processed by Marshall & Co. showed that the .45 ACP (230-grain hardball @ 850 FPS), 9mm Parabellum (124-grain hardball @ 1250 FPS), and 7.62 Tokarev aka 7.63 Mauser (89-90 grain hardball @ 1350 or so), all ended up with 65-70% one-shot stops. Why? Because all three delivered about the same amount of kinetic energy to the target. All three averaged 325-350 foot-pounds of muzzle-energy in spite of achieving it by three different procedures (.45- big bullet at low velocity; 9mm- medium-weight bullet at medium velocity; 7.63- light bullet at high velocity).
Hollowpoint bullets change these percentages a bit, but they seem to benefit all equally. The percentages move up into the 80-90% range, but the three still finish in almost a dead heat, with the 9mm generally ahead by a nose. By the same token, hollowpoints improve the results with any caliber that moves the bullet fast enough to expand the bullet, by about the same margins. As previously stated (see last column remarks), the HP bullet’s main function is preventing over-penetration by ensuring that the bullet stops in the target. And transfers all its available energy to the target, rather than expending a lot of it on the landscape behind it.
The moral is that a .22 will get the job done, and the vaunted “manstoppers” really aren’t all that much better. A .22 hollowpoint will generally accomplish the mission about 55% of the time, which is in the same ballpark as a .38 Special 158-grain round-nosed lead bullet police load. (BTW, this shows that the much-maligned “thirty-eight” is better than you might think.)
If you’re just starting out, the .22 is the best choice. If you can only have a single gun, for whatever reason (legal or financial), the .22 is still a good choice. In handguns, I’m partial to revolvers in .22, simply for safety reasons, plus the fact that .22 self-loaders tend to hang up at inappropriate moments. (I’ve owned several, none of them cheap; the problem isn’t the quality of the weapon, it’s the shape of the rimmed .22 cartridge.)
Another factor to consider is that if you want to “move up” to a more powerful, centerfire arm later on, a .22 with the same type of mechanism makes a good practice arm. And it’s a lot cheaper to feed than any centerfire. Today, they make .22 caliber versions of practically every service automatic pistol there is. If you own, or intend to work up to, a Walther P99, SIG, Colt .45, or whatever, there are .22 “clones” made by the same manufacturers. And going back to revolvers, a double action, swingout-cylinder revolver is the same no matter how big the hole in the front end is. Ditto single-action “Western” types. If you want a rifle, there are .22 rifles in every type you can think of, from bolt-actions to clones of military-style rifles. (My favorites? Lever-actions with tubular magazines, especially if they say “Winchester” or “Marlin” on the barrel near the breech.)
And there’s another bonus with the .22. That being that not only is its ammunition cheap, it’s compact. A 1000-round “brick” of .22 LRs is the same weight and volume as about three 50- round boxes of .45 ACPs, four 50-round boxes of 9mm, or two 20-round boxes of the .30 caliber full-power rifle cartridge of your choice, like the .308 or .30-06. A desk drawer can hold a lifetime supply of .22s.
So when it’s on sale, stock up. It doesn’t take up much space, and it won’t go bad soon.
cheers
eon
eon;
The FBI does “one shot stop tests” every few years. The .40 caliber has the most effective rating at present.
More info for “single shot stopping power” here:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
The Bureau’s tests generally are intended to validate whatever their latest choice of caliber is. Just a couple of years ago they were claiming that the .357 SIG was the next thing to a Star Trek hand phaser; now it’s the .40 S&W.
The numbers for the “wimp calibers” seem designed to validate the old FBI Relative Incapacitation Index; those shown from Sanow & Marshall’s later work are significantly lower than in previous editions. By comparison, .45 ACP numbers are higher than the previous editions.
In the first RII results, the 9 x 19mm was calculated to be 14 times more effective than the best .45 loads (!), and about 10% ahead of the .357 Magnum (?). At the time, the bureau was changing over from revolvers to autos, with the favored caliber being (you guessed it) the 9mm.
After the catastrophic 1986 Miami shootout, the 9mm was determined to be at fault for the loss of two fine agents, Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan, so the Bureau decided that the 180-grain 10mm was the new “death ray”. That was the one that tended to overpenetrate with no expansion. Oops. BTW, Agent Ed Mireles brought the battle to an abrupt end by shooting Platt and Matix with a .38 Special S&W Model 10, loaded with 158-grain lead +P hollowpoints. In spite of being wounded in the right shoulder and having to shoot left-handed as a consequence. He took them down with one head shot apiece.
After the 10mm failed, the Bureau decided to go back to the 9mm, but with the 147-grain subsonic hollowpoint instead of the speedier 115-grain JHP they’d used in Miami. This load became a police standard across the country; and in doing so became justly infamous as a real horror for no expansion, over-penetration, and not having enough recoil force to consistently operate most self-loading pistols. (Glock 17s especially do not like it.)
The 147 had originally been concocted for the Navy’s SEAL Teams, who needed a subsonic load for the H&K MP-5K submachine guns that would be heavy enough in bullet weight to work the action, but still not exceed the speed of sound so it could be used through the detachable sound suppressor of the short-barreled H&K. The SEALs finally gave up on it because it didn’t deliver on any count except being quiet; it wasn’t a good “stopper”, even with center hits, and it wouldn’t work the action reliably. The FBI should have paid more attention to the SEALs, IMHO.
The bottom line in all of this is, whatever the Bureau’s heads decide is going to be the next major gun/ammunition buy, for whatever reason, is suddenly announced to be the Ultimate Man-Stopper, regardless of physics.
For this reason, I tend to take any data emanating from, or being processed through “Fort Hoover” with a grain of salt.
I think a lot of this is also that we’re once more seeing “stopping power theories” rearing their head. My “theory of stopping power” was gleaned from one of my training officers, who was Marine Recon in the Pacific in World War Two;
1. Aim at the other guy’s center of mass.
2. Keep shooting until he falls down and stops doing whatever it was that made you conclude he needed to be shot to begin with.
cheers
eon
eon:
You need to put your knowledge into book form. It looks like a best seller already. Just copy and paste your responses to these “gun owner” essays, for starters.
Your point #2 is well documented, but, performing this task with a standard issue .45 is not that easy. The first shot may hit the mark, but, unless you have much range time with that weapon, the following shots will miss.
I had the honor and pleasure to tour the FBI building a couple times in my youth. The most memorable part is demonstration on the range in the basement.
Your contention that the final decision on a service weapon and ammo boils down to politics is very accurate. The gun manufacturers lobby in Washington is one of the best funded. Their military contracts produce profits that make very cushy retirement packages for their CEO’s.
Cheers, indeed, sir.
Thank you.
Regarding multiple hits, for real fun, practice doing it with a 2 1/2″ .357, double-action, rapid fire. In my case, a Colt Lawman MK III, which tells you how long ago this was.
The combination of muzzle-energy figures and recoil force effects is why I was neither surprised nor especially put out when the Defense Department went from the .45 to the 9mm in 1986. Put simply, the terminal effects are about the same, and the 9 is easier for most people to hit something with.
Truth in advertising; I can achieve multiple rapid-fire hits with the 1911 .45, but then I used to burn up 200 to 300 rounds a week practicing with it. These days, I haven’t the time or the range access. This is another reason I stick to my old reliable Browning P-35 in 9mm.
Another factor is, of course, the possibility of body armor on the opponent, as in the North Hollywood case. Watching the police video of that, I kept saying to my self, “Head shots, guys- HEAD SHOTS.” Going back to my training officers, all of them agreed that if two or three rounds in the center chest don’t bring him down, elevate the front sight and aim for an eye. Call it the “cranio-ocular shot”, the “Mozambique Drill”, or whatever; a Failure To Stop should be immediately rectified in this way. The fact that LAPD officers didn’t seem to grasp this is, IMHO, a training problem, not a caliber or weapon-selection issue.
cheers
eon
My trusty Dan Wesson model 12, .357 with 2.5″ barrel, is the gun I put the most ammo through. Makes a decent concealed gun with small grip, but the target grip fills my hand the way I like. The adjustable trigger is an invaluable feature, to me. I slugged the barrel about a year ago, (the same barrel that came on the gun when I bought it), and it “miked out” within specs. I’ve always shot my own cast lead bullets through it.
I don’t remember ever fanning the hammer in the last 43 years of ownership, but I’m confident that shooting from the hip would be accurate.
Since I have fired that gun so much, it feels natural in my hand. Not so with other revolvers, such as the 2 1/2 Colt Detective Special. For one reason, it feels like you have to aim at the feet of a man sized target to hit center mass. Not a natural feel. Lugers, for me, have an unnatural angle to the grip, and I have to consciously compensate for that angle.
It’s almost impossible to recommend any gun to someone as THE gun for them. There’s so many choices, like women.
I’ll leave it there.
eon:
One piece of technology that has enabled semi-autos to function with less recoil is the locked breech. The original system was the blowback design.
Some incorporate the locked breech as well as gas to manage recoil. Desert Eagle comes to mind. Ever tried one?
The next time I’m at a range, I’m going to yell out “eon” and see if anyone responds. I’ll buy you dinner.
Cybergeezer;
I owned Desert Eagle # 8XXX, .357 Magnum caliber, one of the first production batch, in fact. After shooting the heck out of it for over fifteen years, I traded it for a S&W M27 6″, blue, with Roper grips and Patridge sights (square blade front as opposed to the Baughman ramp). Shot that for years, and finally let it go- with regret- to a S&W fanatic buddy who just absolutely had to have one. (He uses it every deer season; I don’t hunt.)
My conclusion about the Desert Eagle is that I’ve never quite figured out what the heck it’s actually for. It’s too big and heavy for a holster piece, its grip is horrid (and I have big hands), and unless you get the longer-barrelled versions, its performance with the revolver rounds like .357 and .44 Magnum is below that of a revolver with the same actual barrel length. The lack of a barrel-cylinder gap does not make up for the fact that like all autos, the 6″ barrel includes the chamber, so with a 1.125″ cartridge you’re really shooting a 3 7/8″ barreled piece, not a true 6″.
I’ve noticed the Eagle showing up in movies for years, usually in the hands of characters who are more impressed by cool looks and a “rep” than actual performance. As far as professionals go, I’ve known some who experimented with it, but nobody who’s used it operationally.
Frankly, for the money an Eagle costs today, you could buy yourself a revolver in the same caliber, a 12-gauge pump shotgun, a decent bolt-action rifle, and a .22 rifle or pistol- and still have grocery money left over. The same goes for the rest of the “monster autos”, most of which have fallen by the wayside. (Of course, I’d still like to have a .44 AutoMag; not to shoot, just to have.)
As for the range, I’ll buy the beer. After the session, of course.
cheers
eon
eon:
Desert Eagle in anything less than a .44 magnum, is a waste of time and gun.
That thing is a helluva lot of fun to shoot. And amazingly accurate, with the right ammo. The .44 magnum is minimum caliber I would buy it for, and it can handle .44 Corbon, and .50 caliber with equal ease. It was made for the heavier calibers.
If it’s working right, it handles the recoil better than any other pistol I’ve ever heard of.
The gas port is placed at the casing mouth. It’s imperative that this port is kept clean, so the recoil/ejection action works optimally, and as engineered.
I’ve shot cast lead through mine, which sends shivers up the spine of Desert Eagle lovers all over the planet. I ask them if they ever heard of a “gas check”, and they say “no”. They usually, don’t have the faintest idea about reloading.
I’ve since settled on plated, round nose, flat point, for the best cycling. And I can get these plated bullets at a good price. Plated bullets still foul, though not as bad as cast lead.
Desert Eagles, like any other semi-auto in my experience, are finicky for cleanliness. I use a blow gun and diesel fuel to blast out the sear and grip area, otherwise, it acts up. It likes a liberal dose of oil, too.
A good gun cleaner is a basic necessity. I have always liked Hoppe’s, but the new stuff won’t even clean the GSR off my hands. Another subject for research.
I actually have some Hoppe’s that I bought in the ’70′s, that I’ve recycled. I submerge the barrel in that Hoppe’s and let it soak while I clean everything else. I still use a bronze brush for the barrel to make sure it has no remnants of fouling. The barrel seems to be chrome plated, which keeps it from fouling as bad as machined steel.
The ammo the Desert Eagle likes seems to be in a narrow power band. I’ve had to experiment with different powders and loads to find which cycles the best. Fortunately, with reloading, I’ve been able to dial it in. Otherwise, cycling problems, of every conceivable variety, will occur. (More stories for another time).
My daughter shot her first rounds with the .44 Desert Eagle, within the circle on an 8 1/2″ X 11″ target at about 30 feet.
And for the beer; I just finished a Maredsous triple.
BEER IS PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US!
Sláinte!
TYPO:
“.44 Corbon” should be “.440 Corbon”.
There is a significant difference.
eon:
More info to update/debate Marshall-Sanow research:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm
“Another factor to consider is that if you want to “move up” to a more powerful, centerfire arm later on, a .22 with the same type of mechanism makes a good practice arm. And it’s a lot cheaper to feed than any centerfire.”
I quite agree with you. I offer this advice based upon my own experience to anyone who is seeking an entry into handgun ownership and learning to comfortably handle and shoot same. IMHO you cannot go wrong if you will start with a .22 revolver in the Smith and Wesson line. Affordability, quality, and availability being the three main factors. For the person new to all this it is good to know that S and W manufactures their revolvers in various frames that they designate by letter. For example, J-series, K-series, M-series, X-series, etc.. Again for example, the J-series has the same general appearance of the other letter designations but is a lighter frame. A “K” looks like a scaled down version of the “X” which is a hand canon frame. I happen to own a K-22 which is simply and 10-shot .22LR on a frame that is much heavier than required for the .22 but it gives me the handling, appearance, and feel of a much heavier caliber which I may wish to graduate to in the future. In other words, I can pick-up a much larger caliber S and W revolver but I do not experience much difference in handling and comfort. So, I suggest that a beginner could simply go to a competent dealer and explain that he/she is just getting started and would like to know what is available from S and W in .22LR on the heaviest frame. Stay in that in that groove and you won’t be confused and you will be able to move up the line to the larger calibers in familiar and easy transition. By the way, this isn’t a commercial for S and W. I own Colts, Magnum Research, Rugers, etc.. But I really do enjoy my K-22 (which I don’t believe is currently made).
Not a commercial for Ruger either, but their 22/45 pistols are good starters if you’re planning on using a .45 1911 later on. They have almost identical heft and feel, though of course they don’t have nearly the recoil. My sisters-in-law all loved the 22/45 and felt instantly comfortable with it, which is a big factor when dealing with people who are intimidated by firearms. Unfortunately I traded my 22/45 for a shotgun, but I plan on getting another one someday, just for the fun of it.
“Not a commercial for Ruger either, but their 22/45 pistols are good starters if you’re planning on using a .45 1911 later on.”
Very good suggestion. I own a .22/45 and commend your idea as a result. Reasonably priced, too. Here’s another suggestion that I think the newcomer should seriously consider. JOIN THE NRA! Then take advantage of the training possiblites that the NRA offers in your local community.
Yooper
NRA Life Member
“a .22 with the same type of mechanism makes a good practice arm”
Great point.
Way back when, I used a LLama .22 as a “training” pistol for the 1911′s because it was nearly an exact scaled down copy right down to the slide release and safety. Might even have had the grip safety too, cant recall.
Loved that little thing, made teaching “single action autoloader” principals easy and straightforward (and cheap!). And it was fun to shoot, too.
Gun rentals at local ranges (in places its allowed, some states suck) is a huge plus too. For students looking for a defensive pistol, its good to expose them to specific SAA, DOA, S/D/decocker platforms so they can weigh the pros and cons themselves…from handling them, and not just “hearing” about them. Manual safeties, NO safeties, magazine safeties, loaded chamber indicators, theirs a lot of “stuff” out there. A decent gunshop/range will have most bread-and-butter design types to try out before deciding on “the one” style that best suits them.
Making a choice is sometimes easier after seeing several options, because then you’ll know WHY you like this one best, or what you think is “less safe/more difficult” of another style.
People tend to have (or develop) personal preferences for one type verses another (I sure do!), but the goal is being comfortable with “the one” that feels the most natural and intuitive to YOU.
Out of curiosity, and after a bit of research on the 7.62×25 mm round, I acquired one of those Romanian TTC Tokarevs from J&G sales. The pistol itself is surprisingly slim, as slim as my little Walther PPK/s. Also surprisingly accurate wit ha decent trigger(I paid extra for a shiny bore and hand select condition). Sights are so-so, and I may improve them after a bit more work with it. Did I mention loud? Firing one of these in a confined space will definitely be a shock if you are not wearing hearing protection of some sort.
As a matter of routine, I carry Silencio ear plugs at all times. I may not have the chance to put ‘em in, but better to have them than not.
Initial impression is that I got a rockin’ good deal on this pistol and a boatload of ammunition, too. Highly recommended if you want an effective and proven man-stopper for relatively little cash.
I have owned a real, Soviet Tokarev, marked “1945″ in 7.62 X 25MM for over 35 years now. I recently decided to do some practice shooting with it for the first time in over 20 years. I was distressed to find the ammo I bought back in the 70′s has gotten very unreliable – I marked BAD on that box. I’ve bought a lot more ammo since then and reports are that it’s good – and it was cheap, as in 70 rounds for $7.00. But I still need to test it out.
But it’s loud, shooting in the indoor range that is 1.5 miles from my house. I have an order in for one of the new .22 Colt Licensed Model 1911′s and that probably will replace the Tokarev as my defense gun.
I also have a Mauser C96 Broomhandle in 9MM, but while it looks very cool and shoots well, it’s not the thing I would want pull out for defense. Among other things, loading is very awkward. And the crook probably would assume it was something made by Mattel.
Finally, Daisy has a new Model 11 that is a CO2 powered BB gun version of a 1911, all steel, with slide action and all. It’s really neat for $70 or so.
My TTC is stamped with date 1953 – it’s almost as old as I am, but in very good shape. An arsenal re-finish, I think. You do have to watch the ammo you buy. Stick to the non-corrosive stuff and there’s no issue. Sellier and Bellot makes good, reloadable stuff. It’s the East Bloc milsurp stuff that you have to watch. First of all, it’s corrosive – fulminate of mercury used in the primers. And some of it – like the Czech stuff – is loaded really hot. If you run some of that corrosive stuff through your pistol, you must clean it thoroughly as soon as you get it home. I bought some Bulgarian milsurp 7.62×25 and it seems to work OK. Big flash.
Quick note:
Mercuric Fulminate is not the main corrosive agent in older ammo.
The killer is the brew of chlorates that add the “brissance” (extended flash) that actually ignites the propellant.
The mercuric fulminate plays merry hell with brass. Ignition of the primer liberates metallic mercury within the cartridge case. This free mercury instantly bonds to the brass and disrupts the copper-zinc alloy bonds, thus causing the brass to become brittle. Those who have amused themselves by reloading old British .303 cases (the ones with the 1/4″ diameter COPPER primer cup). And the presence of copper primer cups is often a good way to identify mercuric primers. The un-ignited fulminate will react with a brass cup and the result on ignition would not be pretty.
Germany was the first country to go with lead-based (non-mercuric) primers, in the early 20th century. The rest of the world followed soon after; with the notable excepton of much of the British Commonwealth. The early lead primers were considered not reliable enough in all possible combat environments.
The FIRST, general issue, non-corrosive ammo in US service was the .30 Carbine. This was introduced because of the “semi-sealed” gas piston used in that design.
Most Eastern-bloc MILITARY issue ammo, (that “cheap” stuff), is lead based and uses corrosive chlorates: perfectly good ammo, just remember to clean your toys THOROUGHLY after shooting.
“Bruce”:
What would you suggest as the best method of softening/dissolving lead deposits on metal gun parts?
Any ideas on concocting your own gun cleaning home brew?
The 7.63 Mauser/7.62mm Tokarev is a terrific cartridge, and has been since the 1890s. Armchair commandos might want to check out what Mssrs. Fairbairn and Sykes had to say about it in 1942′s “Shooting to Live” (see US Marine Corps manual FMFRP 12-81 for a reprint). Many of the guns chambered for it are nice and slim, too, not at all like today’s fashionable porkers. Unfortunately, the cartridge is just not popular here in the US. I’d have to consider it an exotic, not something to recommend to n00bs.
I carry a back up .22 Beretta that’s very easy to access in a close confrontation. I load .22 ‘stingers’(hollow points). I wouldn’t want a magazine of ‘stingers’ fired into my chest or head.
Robert,
Would that Beretta be the neat little automatic with the “tipping barrel” ?
I think they made them in .25 and .380 (or maybe .22 and .25?)
Neat gun, two issues:
1) You can fire it without ever having to charge the slide. Insert mag, tip barrel, load chamber, no need to retract the slide (which, on straight blowback designs can be suprisingly tough)…some weak/arthritic handed students of mine prefered it for that very reason. (hubby/son/daughter would load mags for them in advance) Not my preference for a PDW, but revolvers were out, and it was the only auto loader they could competently load and shoot themselves.
2) The bottom rear of the slide rails on that little gun are REALLY pointy and SHARP AS KNIVES when it cycles. That gun and big chubby hands do NOT get along well. I’ve seen matching sets of “three-stitches each” gashes on a few people who werent suited for it. If you’re one of those that has a little more “meat puddle” than usual bulging up around the backstrap, it can be ALOT worse than mere hammer-bite with the Beretta I’m thinking of (cant remember the model)
Root, my friend, I also carry a .38 revolver in my pocket and depending I’ll switch to a .45, S&W, M&P, that the missus bought me. But the Beretta is a sweetheart. As you say, charge the barrel and you’re ready to dance. At close range it’s the best pistol in terms of getting all excited and wondering if I’m loaded or have a hot one ready to go. Just point and shoot!
I believe a close encounter is going to be noisy, exciting, bloody, and possibly terminal and since a friend’s unarmed sister was gunned down in a Wal-Mart store last week I don’t even have the usual ‘why am I taking this’ thing going on…I know why.
Sorry to hear that…
When the crap is in the fan, little stuff like hammer bite or a blood-blister near the heel of your hand from an enthusiastic mag change on little autos are non-issues. Like you say, fast and bloody…full speed worry about the bumps after you get there.
I train my “advanced” students one-on-one with everything from hot brass down their shirts to shook-up soda cans in their faces.
Whatever quirks or discomforts your PDW has that you might be “careful” about while target shooting, you have to let them bite you so you know you can deal with it.
Firearms training is a contact sport. Practice OFTEN with your “weak” hand, and find a range that will (safely) permit shooting from chairs, prone, laying on your side, etc. (up-muzzle elevations present safety concerns)
Weaver and Isosceles go out the window fast when youre spinning in a circle, each with a handful of each others shirt, one arm free while you’re trying to unholster and he’s beating (or stabbing) you.
My general rule is, if you carry to better your odds in a lethal encounter, EXPECT to get hurt in doing so. Bad guys are viscous and fast. They generally strike first without warning, and you are RESPONDING. You may indeed be shot first, so plan and train for that.
My “weapon” of choice? Love and understanding. That will stop a would be burglar, downtrodden by the rich, everytime.
Your smell is lethal, too. Can you bottle it?
WTH are you smoking? HOW many people have to roll over & play dead, only to be tortured & KILLED by your “burglar, downtrodden by the rich”? In case you hadn’t noticed, it ISN’T the ‘downtrodding rich’ who pay the price – THEY have either CCW/personal security! It’s regular working stiffs who are far & away the VICTIMS of your poor, misunderstood, never-had-a-chance burglars …………………….. God save us from people who are pacifist-at-all-cost …………………….. Francis Scott Key had it right – I’d rather die on my feet, than live on my knees ……………………..
Semper Fi’ to the realists
DM
Hey LE (Lovely Earth) is all the time making these comments they are not a troll but one of us and just every so often like to get a rise out of some of those that do not see their posts very often, it is not serious but I do like the comments that he or she gets every now and then!
Would be a great Devils advocate!
Steve:
troll 1 |trōl|
noun
1 the action of trolling for fish.
• a line or bait used in such fishing.
2 informal Computing an e-mail message or posting on the Internet intended to provoke an indignant response in the reader.
That’s what the Jews said to Hitler. How did that work out for them by the way?
Nikki Dement, Candace Driver and Kenneth Vandiver would argue differently.
Kenneth is silent on the affair.
Beunka Adams is no longer able to disagree or agree with your hypothesis since he went to hell recently.
So, are you going to offer a rapist a pleasant discussion over crumpets and tea?
Are you going to tell that Klansman that though I may be black, deep down we’re all the same color?
Are you going to reason with the likes of Mohammad Atta while he is flying your airliner in to the side of a building?
I’m all for love and understanding, but every method has its limits. It is good to know how to use firearms, just in case the former methods fail.
Hey, guys?
You’ve been had.
“LovelyEarth” is a spoof. Check “her” posts all over this site. I don’t know if she’s a she or a he, but she’s a parody done by a conservative.
Yeah, I fell for it the first time I saw it, too.
The trouble is, it sounds authentic. It’s voiced by the same folk who say “War is not the answer!” without considering what the question is.
And who are breathtakingly ignorant of history and human nature.
I don’t use it for self-defense, but at the range I shoot more .22 than anything else. First off, I can buy a 500-round brick of .22 for about $20. So I’m paying 4 cents a shot versus more than 50 cents a shot for center-fire cartridges.
On the range, .22 is as accurate as anything else at short-range. And it doesn’t beat up my shoulder and ears. Definitely the easy way to shoot a lot.
I agree.
The basic elements of breathe and squeeze still apply.
None of the above matters unless you practice regurlarly and keep your gun with you at ALL times. Get comfortable with it and develop situational awareness.
Sound advice, Mr. Owens.
There are CO2 powered guns that shoot .17 caliber pellets that you can fire in your living room. These pellets are safer than BB’s, since they are made to deform on impact, and will not ricochet. They are soft enough, and travel at slow speed, so they do not make a weapon suitable for home defense, although some have the full size and weight of a larger caliber, and many are made, purposely, to look like a full sized weapon. (My 11 year old grandson has a paint ball gun that looks like a Sig-Sauer Tactical Assault rifle).
The .22 cannot be reloaded, of course, which is instrumental in learning what a cartridge is all about. (Maybe in a future treatise?)
But, SAFETY is the FUNDAMENTAL FIRST STEP in handling any weapon or ammunition.
For home practice, I think the LaserLyte system is a decent choice. Essentially a laser pointer that either fits into the barrel or (for a few calibers) the chamber. I have one that works quite well, at least so far.
They are great for showing how much flinch occurs when hammers drop.
Thats streak on the wall can surprise a lot people who think they are doing it all properly.
“follow-through” takes on a new meaning when you can SEE it
Thoughts on range time for the novice: If at all possible, go to an outdoor range– many state parks have such facilities.
Indoor ranges are fine, but they are typically LOUD in ways that outdoor ranges are not. Novices may not have gotten decent hear protection yet. Little orange plugs are no match for an indoor range.
Indoor ranges frequently have time limits. Learning takes time, you don’t want to feel rushed.
Indoor ranges can be intimidating for a novice (I say this as a former novice). Because of time constraints and the composition of clientelle (at least at the ranges I’ve been to), indoor ranges are less sociable– less relaxed– than outdoor ranges.
AND… if you are a city dweller, you will have to get out of the city to go to an outdoor range. And added bonus!
Great point Marcia,
Add smell, smoke, and (usually) poor temperature/air conditioning to that formula. In some older ranges I find richochet and “splatter” more of an issue too, with all those (closer) “hard surfaces” that need to endure decades of bullet strike.
Also, outdoors you can usually get a few yards off the firing line, “unplug” and have a conversation. Indoors thats usually impossible. The sudden (unanticipated!) blast of someone esles gun will startle the crap out of your “student” if they pull the headphones off for “just a sec.” to hear what youre saying.
Not to be weanie, but with novice/students you need to keep the experience as “pleasant” and non-distracting as possible. For safety reasons, and ‘ahem” political ones…
You dont want to “lose” people to the other side if their first and only experience with firearms is ugly, frightening and unconfortable, and thus convinces them its just “too dangerous” for average people to do.
Stress and discomfort are good training tools, LATER, after they’ve safely learned the basics, under as ideal conditions as you can find.
All excellent points. I’ll add one, and it relates to two of the fundamentals;
Know what’s behind your target, keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction (UP ain’t safe)
There is no need to worry about that indoors. At an outdoor range, that becomes a requirement. Even with heavy earth berms, there’s no ceiling to stop a round. A high velocity pistol round has the potential to kill at a mile……
For-sure…Those are important rules
Hey, I got a question about one of the “ten commandments”
Anyone else run into this “problem” I sometimes see with the rule thats says:
“never point a gun at anything you’re not willing to destroy” or simmilar language
What I’m saying is, some people get the wrong impression, they think its like its some kind of challenge….
Like “if you pull a gun, you better have the guts to follow through” and it upsets them that a general “gun safety” rule seems so “aggressive” with a focus violence…like guns and shooting people are basically inseperable, and it turns them off.
I go to great length to point out its as simple and non-agressive as looking behind you when backing up your car, so you dont crush the neighbors kid on a trycicle by mistake. More like “duh” than anything else.
Its not a challenge to violence, but alot of people I’ve trained and/or talked to about guns see it as one, and its a turn-off to some potential sport/fun shooters (who are not enclined to carry concealed) but who none the less should be allies of the 2nd Amendment.
Anyone else have to tip-toe and soothe ruffled feathers over that one? Always surprises me how something so simple and obvious gets taken the wrong way, but it does at least a couple times a year it seems.
An inadequate pistol that you have with you (even .22LR) is better than the .44 Magnum revolver that you left at home because it’s too heavy and bulky to carry. Remember that a pistol is primarily a threat: “Leave me alone, or sometime in the next couple of hours, you are going to either bleed to death, or have to explain to an emergency room doctor why you have a bullet hole.”
And the other points made here: less intimidating to get started; opportunity to practice cheaply and in places that otherwise might not be available.
Well said.
So, nobody flying across a room from a gunshot, eh?
Just for grins, they make a conversion kit for .45 cal. pistols that allow you to fire .22 cal. rounds. I believe they consist of a modified magazine, weaker springs and a barrel insert. Makes it easy to learn the controls, and sighting of the larger handgun without the kick or expense of the larger cal. ammo.
One other thing. The noise of a .22 can still ruin your hearing so good hearing protection is a must no matter what caliber you choose.
Add also to that the fact that .22 rifles and pistols are just plain fun. My family and I will often burn through a thousand or more rounds of .22LR on a day trip to the mountains, shooting at steel spinner targets and clay birds. I love .22s and own a bunch of them.
The best way to become a good shot is to shoot a lot. A good .22 makes that easy.
If you want to learn a weapon, shoot 100 rounds. If you want to master a weapon, shoot 1,000 rounds. If you want to be great at a weapon, shoot 10,000 rounds plus. Champions shoot 40,000 to 300,000 times a year.
A pistol is what you use while heading to your rifle,on the way to your phone.
The most dangerous part of a weapon is the nut between your ears.
Air rifles, .17 pellet, are quiet, inexpensive, and let you work out the bad habits of blinking, trigger squeeze, and breathing. You don’t have to go to the range to shoot 25 rounds a day for a few months to watch the learning curve accelerate.
Excellent advice.
Let me go technical: the 22LR goes through the barrel SLOWER than larger rounds, and that amplifies the result of your mistakes. So your form needs to be really good. Therefore, you learn much better and when you use a “faster” round your shooting will be infinitely more precise.
Good observation, you are right about “barrel time” and accuracy.
Add “lock time” to the mix, and you wonder how they ever did it with a flintlock.
“followthrough” was no joke back then, huh?
One thing that amuses me about .22′s.
When youre booming away with .308′s at the outdoor range, then you hear the “piiishhhiiiiwww” of a .22, you’ll swear you can almost hear it ignite, build pressure and THEN accellerate, all in that sound.
Nothin better or more fun than a .22!
For any of you who think that the .22 long rifle is not macho enough for your shooting style, just google “Ad Topperwein”. He was probably the greatest trick shooter of all times and did so with a .22. I am certain that no one today could come even close to his accuracy and consistency in hitting thrown (1″ wooden blocks) targets. Thousands of them in a row without missing.
My 1911 .45 acp gives me absolutely NO concerns about stopping power.
Gods voice may sound like a 12 gauge shotgun getting racked.
But his fist feels like a .45
LOVE the “God’s voice ………………… ” comment – snitched & posted it @ my Marine message board …………………
Semper Fi’
DM
It should.
I carry a .45, but I know its limitations. You should learn them.
I’ve always felt that the .22LR’s puny terminal energy is balanced out by it’s inherent precise shot placement.
That said my reach for piece is a Walther P38……..(9mm)……
Someone up the thread stated that even the sound of a .22LR will make your head ring for a day.
I have a Ruger revolver with two cylinders, one for longs and one for mags.
Sweet little pistol.
You beat me to the punch with:
25. AFVET
“Someone up the thread stated that even the sound of a .22LR will make your head ring for a day.
I have a Ruger revolver with two cylinders, one for longs and one for mags.
Sweet little pistol.”
I have made my living working on shock and impact problems since 1960, also a life member of the NRA. I know the energy the pressure imparts to the projectile is merely the integral of the pressure-volume curve. Just how the projectile kinetic energy relates to “knockdown power” is not simple. Think of what most African shooters want; momentum. I still think that little Ruger is hard to beat. Houston Humphries
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&fpart=1
A .22 lr ain’t no toy even if it’s not a whizbang killozap round.
I think the “accuracy is final” comment traces back to Bill Jorden.
The .22 LR isn’t just lacking in power, it also has higher missfire rates then centerfire rounds, and more feeding issues in semi autos.
That said, .22 LR is great for practice. I have three .22 handguns, an old Colt Woodsman, a Ruger Bearcat (sweet little revolver) and a Ruger 22/45.
Cost is the big advantage for .22 LR. Also, .22 LR has good survival advantages, due to the low cost of the ammo, you can have a lot on hand, and it is well suited to taking small game. It is also reletively quiet, everyone for miles around won’t hear it, and it destroys little meat.
““a .22 with the same type of mechanism makes a good practice arm””
Which is why the Army came up with the M1922 training rifle- an ’03 Springfield chambered for .22
Agree absolutely as to the value of a .22 as a practice weapon- you can shoot all day without wrecking your shoulder, wrists or wallet; and the only way to get good with a firearm is to shoot a lot.
eon,
Marshall and Sanow are frauds, and “one shot stop” statistics are junk science. Dr. Martin Fackler is the real deal.
Yep.
I love it when someone recommends several experts, and fails to notice that they are in violent disagreement!
Mossad used small .22 short (not LR) pistols to kill many of the architects of the Munich massacre. They even reduced the power charge of the .22 short round, so it was more like a .22 CB. This reduced the noise level, so they didn’t need sound supressors.
Note though, they used this in assasinations. Defending oneself is a different matter. I wouldn’t recommend .22 LR for self defense, but every gun owner should have a .22 for practice.
Thanks for the “plug” for Appleseed. It IS by far the best rifle marksmanship program out there, and the History component is an added much needed and enjoyable bonus. With our careful sequentially practical instruction, lots of personal attention from instructors who ARE marksmen, low cost, and over five hundred rounds in a typical weekend course, I have watched a few hundred shooters, some brand new to the sport, make HUGE gains in a weekend. SO far, I’ve seen everything from .22 crickets to .339 Lapua (with a few crazy things, like an 1886 Turkish 8mm cartridge (pre-Mauser) military rifle, the odd Communist Peasant Rifle, M2 Garand, AR 10) and EVERYONE has fun and learns. Most come back for more. http://www.appleseedinfo.org gets you to the main site, event locators and registration right there. Pleanty of pictures, too. SO far, over a hundred thousand shooters on the line across the country.
I also want to make a point that even if you shoot a .22 better then a larger caliber, the improved accuracy may not mean much in an actual self defense situation.
If you defend yourself, most likely your target will be moving and not cooperating. Precise placement probably isn’t possible. To make it worse, most defense situations occur in low light conditions. With this in mind you are going to be much better off with a 9, .40 or .45 loaded with a good load like Ranger Ts. Even if your accuracy isn’t as good with the bigger round.
The other thing is that there is a tendency to shoot very poorly in actual defense situations, since you will likely be very scared. A key aspect to this is that in actual situations, people often don’t aim at all. It is very hard to focus on a small protrusion on your weapon (the front sight) when your attacker is in sight. The main solution is training, training and more training, not just slow fire accurate shooting but fast and “accurate enough” shooting at slow range but under strict time constraints. It can also help to use optical sights like red dot or Eotech types of sights that have no magnification but put the red dot on the same focal plane as the target.
First gun is like your first car. Most of us our first car was what someone else thought we needed sometime they were right and sometime we would of like to have another make,but the odd are our first car got us where we wanted to go. In one way cars are like guns in that after you decide what you want you can buy what you want. First you do need to decide why you want a gun, Than fine someone who has a gun for that some reason. About 40% of the people around you have gun. Most people like to share thier hobit with other. I take people to the range as much as I can. Most people enjoy the sport when they gave it a try
I has been said in medical circles that a .22 head injury could be worse than higher caliber because the bullet tended to “bounce around” inside the skull. That may be just folklore.
For those who are interested here is a link to an article in the joural Radiographics discussing the Radiology of gunshot injuries and different types of guns and ammunition.
http://radiographics.rsna.org/content/19/5/1358.full
Tionico, have you been looking in my gun closet again? My oldest rifle is a 1874 Dutch Beaumont Vetterli 11.7MM (.43 cal.)bolt action. For all I know it might have been used in the Boar Wars. I remember when I bought my own M1 Carbine. I’d shot one before (a select fire version) but forgot how much fun they were. I went to the range with one magazine and two boxes of ammo. Thought I was just going to see how it fired. What seemed like two minutes later I was out of ammo and on my way to the gunshow for more mags and a lot more ammo. Great, short barreled, little gun with very little kick, good accuracy, and more than enough stopping power for most needs.
Lots of mention of the ‘bigger is better’ theory of home defence, but as the lady said “It isn’t the size, it’s knowing how to use it”.
The U S Army dropped the old Single Action Army .45cal six-shooter after the Indian wars cooled down, as over-kill, replaced it with a .38. Along came the Spanish-American dust-up and the natives in the Phillipines, juiced up on ganga, would take three or four of the smaller, lighter slugs in vital areas before going down. In a close quarters fight it was enough time to make the old ‘taking a knife to a gun fight’ seem to be the winners mantra. Moot point, as in the end everybody died!
It wasn’t just the knockdown factor of the lumbering freight train, it was the durability and practicality of the 45 that often won the day, that is, if you didn’t mind putting the same slug through the intruder and the walls of a couple of your near neighbors. Air Marshalls use a standard 40 cal with a frangible projectile to stop the target without tearing holes in the aircraft skin. Shooting galleries used a similar 22 with a disintigrating bullet.
It makes sense to analyze your target, er potential needs, and then be able to choose whatever best fills the bill. For home defense I prefer the Mossberg 500 pump action 12 guage with 18 1/2 inch barrel and pistol grip. It is short enough to be manuveaible and with the sling is comfortable to shoot from the hip. Not a plug for Mossberg, most makers offer a similar tool.
Before buying a weapon, study everything about that weapon (take classes). Then learn how to use that particular weapon. Most imortant; national, State and local laws governing ownership, use (conceal carry)and restrictions. One example: a lawn mower. First thing is to research lawn mowers, and everything about them. Then talk to that maufacturers rep, get pointers on how best to use and extract maximum performance from that lawn mower. Well, same thing for weapons (single action, bolt action, over-under, semi vs. automatic, etc.).
Second, find a really good, reliable gun smith. This individual will be invaluable to a novice gun owner (besides the vendor or weapon rep).
Third, besides the NRA, look for a group or society (preferably local, range is a good start) of seasoned and novice weapons owners who have varying experiences to impart.
Fourth, ammunition. To reload, buy in bulk or enough to “just get by.”
Fifth, practice, practice and practice.
Sixth, Always, always, clean your weapon with special care and loving emotional attachment…it will save your life and those loved ones around you one day.
Seventh, teach every member of your immediate family (children included)respect, care and weapons technology (example: single action vs. double action).
Should be enough to get any novice safely on the road. Be safe. Be aware. Semper Fi.
“The answers are as varied as the people considering gun ownership”
That’s the real key here: use what works for you. If you can hit a nickel at 50 yards with a .22 single-action derringer – then that’s the gun for you. If you can’t hit a building with a customized Kimber .45 with laser sights – forget it.
If you are not a gun owner, the only way to figure this out is to get to know people that own guns. Talk to them. Have them take you to the range. Make friends with the people there. Most people at the range will be happy, once they get to know you, to let you take a shot or two with their piece. Try it.
Eventually, you will find a gun that you are happy with and therefore good with. Might be an auto or might be a revolver. Might be .22 or might be .44.
But don’t let anyone tell you that you “MUST have a blah blah blah..” Nope. Guns are like sex; what works for them might not work for you. So go with what you feel good about.
Feral. I recall the BBs at Dix. Early ’69.
I shot the M1 carbine quite a bit in college. Sweet, sweet weapon. Read recently somebody’s making them to old spec brand new. Not too pricey, either.
Thing for beginners to know, it’s quite hard to hit anything with a firearm. Especially a handgun. You have to go to the range and fire a lot of rounds to get good. 22 is cheap to shoot, and you need to do a lot of shooting.
Also 22 is fairly quiet and doesn’t kick much. Firing a big bore handgun is like setting off a cherry bomb in your outstretched hand. It’s real easy to develop a bad flinch from the report or the kick. Better to develop your marksmanship with something user friendly before moving up to centerfire guns.
If you don’t want to develop a permanent flinch, wear big ear defenders when shooting.
Good hand gun shooting is very dependent upon the grip of the gun. The grip needs to fill your hand, but allow room for all your fingers to close around it. And it needs to be grippy, dry, well checkered. I can remember trying to shoot clapped out USAF 38 revolvers with tiny little grips, that had been marinated in gun oil for decades, checkering worn down smooth. Could not hit the broadside of the barn. Use a friend’s commercial 38 revolver with good dry well checkered grips, and I could shoot expert. Angle of the grip counts too, a straight up grip like on the 1911 pushes straight back at you. A slanty grip like many revolvers have will twist in your hand, throwing you second shot off. Try the grip on the range before sinking real money into the piece.
Larger caliber guns require more muscular strength to shoot well. You will do better with a smaller caliber gun that you can shoot well, than with a hand cannon that is too heavy and kicks too hard for good accuracy. A good hit with a 22 will do the job. All a bigger gun does, is stop some targets when you don’t get a good hit.
There is always good advise especially for first time gun owners of any type or caliber weapon whether it is a shotgun or rifle or pistol!
Consider all weapons you look at or discover to be not only loaded but gully loaded to their maximum capacity ALL GUNS ARE LOADED AT ALL TIMES!
You must inspect each firearm to ensure that they are NOT LOADED!
Never have the muzzle of any firearm pointed in the direction that could fire a bullet that would result in injury or death unless it is you intention to do so and you are willing to accept the consequences of so doing! In other words keep the barrel pointing down to the ground or if at a range downrange or up in the air!
Keep your finger off the trigger until that time you decide to actually destroy whatever the target is.
Read and understand the owners manual for that weapon, if it is a used weapon then go online and find the PDF for it if possible and if you can not find it either do not own that weapon or find someone who might know how or where to get one.
Once you have a weapon of any sort get some formal training and the NRA has several courses for new owners. Owning a weapon is a big responsibility and you should take it quite seriously, as many posters have pointed out several great aspects of gun ownership and many may also carry daily as I do and have for many years, I have yet had to use my weapon(s) but always have at least two of them close by at all times, so far since 1975 I have never had a gun to shoot itself and most certainly shoot someone else by me pulling the weapon out of whatever holster it normally stays in.
Let us just say that if you were to run across me on the street you would probably never know that I am carrying a weapon on my person. Armed people like me and many others are civil but if push comes to shove might not be so nice if you are a thug!
there is always this confusion about the Topic
An introductory firearm – a first time learning firearm
vs what experienced users, use – as their personal choice, under their circumstances
two different things –
it seems most agree that a first-firearm, learning firearm – might as well be a .22
there is also now the .17 – which should be of interest to shooters of small caliber rimfire
not much difference in recoil and noise – significantly better range and accuracy, although higher cost per cartridge – it’s up to you.
this may not be your eventual firearm of choice, in your situation, as you see it , for self defense, be it concealed carry, or hunting, or offense / defense
but it will teach a beginner – and owning , using, caring for, firearms, goes well beyond just shooting them –
the .22 has, and will, always have this place in the learning process, and perhaps far beyond – and that is where anyone should start –
once you got all this down – you can move on to the 45/70 – heh – lol — etc. not for everyone, but my personal favorite big cartridge. – a long-rifle cartridge, not for handguns -
i’ve settled on the .40 for that use – .40 also can be fired from a carbine – - and the .38 -357 magnum range – revolver or carbine – handy. versatile, simple.
It was Bill Jordan who first wrote (in his autobiographical “No Second Place Winner”, circa 1965) that “speed’s fine but accuracy’s final”. Anyone who has ever seen him shoot would agree that he had both attributes. A lawman of the old school, he knew exactly what he was talking about…having won every gunfight he had. His draw-and-shoot (accurately) time was, at one point and perhaps still today, the fastest ever recorded: 280 milliseconds…including reaction time.
http://www.darkcanyon.net/BillJordan_TopGun.htm
Not to detract from later, and well-regarded, shooters and teachers. I suspect that they’d be amongst the first to correct the record.
Thanks for doing these articles in this forum, Bob.
I’m looking for a .22 revolver with a swing out cylinder for ease of reloading. Any suggestions from the readers?
Haze gray -
most any one will do – depends a bit on your goal interest, use –
i have an ancient Ruger Bearcat, bought well used, cheap — not very accurate anymore, but it’s light simple and fun enough and has History.
If you can afford S&W’s, I would go there for a start – pretty good out of the box – expensive perhaps, but very good quality
They are now selling a J frame model 317′kit gun’ – all aluminum alloy – pretty light weight, which is nice – as a pocket revolver for casual woods walks and light target plinking with subsonics – less than 13 oz, and a identical Model 63 in all stainless steel – weighs twice as much at 26 oz -probably more long term durable for high velocity – – both 8 shot – both short enough for a jacket pocket
i like the light weight version,with 60 grain subsonics, as i carry it more often while hikeing.
my use expectation does not include self-defence – against humans or large animals – although they are much better than nothing – it’s the cartridge that’s important, and the range in .22 goes from very light 20 grain, which i normaly use, to 60 grain in subsonic, which i will use if needed – and many more varieties in high velocity, which i don’t use much, as you start needing ear protection for them in a short barrel revolver – I’ll generaly use a rifle for them. – i prefer the subsonics, as you don’t need any ear protection and with a 3″ barrel revolver, your not looking for distance. I live way out in the country, not much threat of human interaction – we do have bear, moose, coy-dog, fisher cat – but i would carry a 357 magnum if needed for them – in revolvers, 357 is the way to go as you can mostly use the less powerful .38 for practice and most situations, or the 357 for max power and impact – but you should use ear protection with them -
Went for my CHL class yesterday; scored 234 out of 275 on the range {a friend, former USMC DI, called me a “slacker”
}, and missed 2 out of 50 questions on the written test …………………. also got to meet R. Lee Ermey {store where class was held had grand opening this weekend} – he was as gracious to me as could be ………………….. GREAT man!!
Semper Fi’
DM
this is all very interesting – i suppose i am fortunate to live in a State that doesn’t require any permits or formal training — we can carry concealed, or open, handguns or rifles – there are very few regulations here, as our Federal and State Constitution defines that is our natural right.
our training, comes from our ancestors, not the Government. . we don’t need permits
it has, so far, worked out good – we have very little statistical firearm crime – and most of that is from out-of-state offenders, most of that is due to illegal drug trade.
Free citizens – owning and using firearms, concealed or open, are not the problem
criminals are – and they will get guns of whatever type, no matter what the laws are, as, they are criminals.
it’s all pretty obvious to us – why does the rest of the USA have any question about this?
this is all very interesting – i suppose i am fortunate to live in a State that doesn’t require any permits or formal training — we can carry concealed, or open, handguns or rifles – without government required permits or ‘training’ there are very few regulations here, as our Federal and State Constitution defines that is our natural right.
our training, comes from our ancestors, not the Government. . we don’t need permits
it has, so far, worked out good – we have very little statistical firearm crime – and most of that is from out-of-state offenders, most of that is due to illegal drug trade.
Free citizens – owning and using firearms, concealed or open, are not the problem
criminals are – and they will get firearms of whatever type, no matter what the laws are, as, they are criminals.
it’s all pretty obvious to us – why does the rest of the USA have any question about this? — The Constitution, defines your natural right, if not obligation, to keep and bare arms — insist your elected representatives recognize, and continuously , enforce this fact.
the Declaration of Independence – is not a long document
neither is the Constitution, of the United States of America –
Nor are the Amendments , to that Constitution
pretty much plain simple language, that any country boy can grasp, as was the intention of those who drafted them
Clear – Intentional – Declarative – read them – and associated Federal Papers, and related History
They define our exceptionalism — it is not we who are exceptional, as humans – it is our Constitution
Defend it.
I understand that the Bank of America has stated they will not carry the NRA account; I assume due to the NBC and MSNBC coverage of the Trayvon Martin fiasco. That bank also carried the ASCE (civil eng.) account, so there should be a choice to make. I will choose “The Second Amendment”;and let the BoA go down the drain. What a pathetic decision by the BoA. If the do not approve our constitution, maybe that should try one in Africa.