Senate GOP Embarrasses Dems Over Boeing
Luttig emphasized that a union strike in 2008 in Washington shut down production of the 787, costing Boeing more than a billion dollars and “damaging Boeing’s reputation for reliability with its airline customers, suppliers, and investors.” Boeing took into account many different factors in making a major assembly investment decision, and the recurring strikes in Washington was just one of them.
This action by the pro-union NLRB is an abuse of the applicable law and precedent, and seems to be a political move made to placate the unions that will be crucial to the election efforts of Democrats next year, including President Obama. It is also an attack on right-to-work states like South Carolina.
The NLRB action has raised the ire of everyone from the governor and Representative Joe Wilson, to Senators Jim DeMint and Lamar Alexander. Luttig’s testimony made the NLRB the focus of the hearing, something that would otherwise not have happened because Harkin would never have called a hearing to specifically discuss this issue.
Harkin was clearly annoyed at the turn that the hearing took. He muttered about his coal mining father and the unfair attacks on unions and the NLRB. But the political danger of the NLRB action was demonstrated by Senator Richard Blumenthal (D-CT), who given his background in suing corporations, is not generally seen as “pro-business.”
Blumenthal went out of his way to be nice to Luttig and Boeing, the biggest American export company with $29 billion in overseas sales in 2009. That might also be due to the fact that Boeing suppliers spend more than a billion dollars in Connecticut.
Al Franken made a late appearance and demonstrated, once again, why Saturday Night Live suits him better than the United States Senate. Franken got angry and said it is untrue that anyone is ever forced to join a union. He obviously never worked in the produce section at Shop ‘n Save in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In a closed-shop state like Pennsylvania, the laws require employees to be members of a union if the employer is unionized. Enzi quipped, in response to Franken’s error, that you wouldn’t have to join a union unless “you wanted a job.”
While labor bosses like what the NLRB is doing, Democrats are starting to realize that this attack on Boeing and the thousands of high-paying jobs it is creating is a political handicap that may dog them all the way to November 2012. Most Americans view the opening of additional assembly lines as a good thing in this economy. As Jennifer Rubin has blogged at the Washington Post, the NLRB has handed the Republicans a potent issue. If the NLRB persists with this attack on one of the nation’s major employers, the costs will not just be economic, but political as well.
Kudos to Enzi, although outsmarting Tom Harkin isn’t exactly difficult. Luttig is a legal genius who, but for the left’s persistent politicization of the judicial nomination process would and should be on the Supreme Court. He’s already made NRLB’s recess-appointed Solomon look like a law school dropout in court filings.
And thanks for the Al Franken cameo at the end, too. There is scarcely any subject the serious discussion of which could not be degraded by the introduction of the Senator from Jesse Ventura. Sometimes you have to pity Al – he’s not good enough, he’s not smart enough, and – doggone it! – people don’t like him.
great post
Seconded. It made me wish PJM had a thumbs-up button for comments.
What these schlubs disregard is that Boeing has facilities in at least 30 states and their suppliers are small-town America. Of course, Harkin is a slobbering unionist that needs their votes to remain an out-of-touch lawmaker. Pretty disgusting. We can thank the former DoJ attorney, Mr. Adams for a great post.
I don’t think this whole incredibly political and stupid situation could be summed up any better, both in the article and in Estragon’s post. My hat off to both.
Al Franken is the poster boy for returning election of Senators to the states, as it was originally set up in the Constitution. He would have never gotten past a state government’s vetting and selection, and wouldn’t have been able to steal the election through lawyers.
“returning election of Senators to the states”
Don’t be silly, that only means more power to party bosses. Franken didn’t have to count all those cemetery votes to get the Senate seat, just have to bribe the bosses. That is what the Euros are doing now, voters are allowed to vote for a slate of politicians approved by entrenched political insiders. Franken got the seat now because the Minnesotans were stupid enough to vote for him, but they might learn and get rid of him next time. If the politican bosses were to decide, he could be there for as long as he kisses the bosses’ you-know-what.
Well, that assumes that you are ignoring what is going on at the state level.
Al Franken is completely ridiculous. He made his name in the entertainment industry where you are absolutely forced to join multiple unions. What a clown. And not the funny kind.
So did Ronald Reagan. The only difference is he learned something during that time. (See the firing of the air traffic controllers.) Franken, unfortunately, learned nothing.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Amazing that Franken apparently never heard of SAG, or the way they have always used the Taft-Hartley Labor Act to temporarily bring in a non-SAG actor to make them “eligible” for a role.
Not forced to join a union, Al? Are you a member of SAG or its TV equivalent? Try to go back to SNL and tell the union to shove it, that you are not joining or paying dues. See how far you get, smart boy! What a twit!
“the NLRB has handed the Republicans a potent issue”
Yes they have, and the lamestream media cannot spin this in their journolista way. The facts suggest that this greedy union wants to control the employer and spitefully kill non-union jobs, period. Over time, modern unions are bringing communities down.
Unions enable great advances for employees, but discourage worker concessions when necessary for the employer to compete. This mindset destroyed my Teamster job, my 28 fellow drivers jobs, and the jobs of thousands of other union workers in Michigan. Many top employers here are moving their businesses to right-to-work states, but no NLRB stink. Why do they choose to target Boeing?
The global economy that we have immersed ourselves in demands that we work for less in order to compete. No amount of union browbeating or whimpering Democrat hearings can change this fact. The milkrun is over, folks. The decline in union membership is due to their own actions, and most of us know this, not that any Democrat would ever admit it.
Hawkwatcher you contradict yourself here. This is quite common but needs to be addressed.
“Unions enable great advances for employees, but discourage worker concessions when necessary for the employer to compete. This mindset destroyed my Teamster job, my 28 fellow drivers jobs, and the jobs of thousands of other union workers in Michigan.”
You say the Union wants control over the employer, which they do when they have control over the government, but they also have full control over the employee as this column and comments clearly show. Without government collusion they would not have that power. It has been business that has improved the lot of the worker rather than the union yet the unions have taken the credit just like the Mafia helped New York.
If the unions were working for the employee instead of the Bolshevik revolution they would do different. A business does not thrive at the expense of their employees neither can an employee thrive at the expense of the business. They are symbiotic so for one to thrive the other must.
I don’t know how many of you are familiar with a single tree and a double tree. A double tree is fastened to the tongue of a wagon to which a horse is hitched on either side of the tongue by a single tree to the double tree and, as they pull the wagon the double tree is straight across the tongue but if one horse slacks and the other pulls most of the load the double tree will be at a angle showing this difference. Labor is hitched with management and needs to pull even. They can do nothing without the direction of the management and management can do nothing without the production of labor. If you move the pivot of the double tree in either direction you change the leverage from equal to biased.
The growth of America from its beginning through the roaring twenties testify to that. You testify to your own personal experience that the unions do oppose this thriving. They cannot oppose a prospering business due to capital gains and be working for the best interest of their membership.
The NRLB was designed by the unions and for the unions not for the employee. Now it has shown where it has always stood.
Great, fantastic and “non-argumentative” post, Whit.
Very well put. This post is a keeper.
I’ve lived in the South my entire life(84 years), never been, or had the desire to to be, a union member; I’ve never understood the union mindset, frankly, but their reported benefits have long since diminished; basically, the union leadership uses member dues to flex their political muscle. I’m convinced this was their motivation by attacking Boeing; Their strongest ally sits in our White House, and he has attempted to stack the NLRB with the likes of Craig Becker. This was very bad economic and political strategy, but the goon squad leaders thought they had a “slam dunk”
I’ve watched corporate / international union collusion over ride local union input with continual resupply of “yes men” for both selected from local union rank and file for 38 years. The most disheartening part of the experience was seeing uncontested word definitions defiled by leaders akin to those employed in a recent impeachment debacle and blindly accepted in the ranks.
Realizing that the same misinformed members carried equal dead weight in public election process was a prophetic experience. Refusing to participate in either corrupt game has been my lone strategy to speed up the gradual convergence into total ignorant denial consistent with media slop. Is the line finally being drawn in the dust?
Teamsters’ history indicates that one mafia action deserves another. Although, if the head butting phenomena occurred today with the same rule applied, it would demand a much higher body count. It should make newsworthy TV despite liberal whitewashing since both DOJ and SEIU now occupy the same space.
A bit of history might be in order here, our company -Vought Aircraft- and Alinia- a company from Italy- were awarded contracts to build sections of the New plastic 787. Ostensibly SC was chosen because it hadent had a history of unionism and was a deep water port. We Vought Aircraft and Alenia built manufacturing plants that make parts for the 787, the horrendous logistical problems of a new radical airplane ensued, our companies contract stipulated we wouldent get paid until the airplanes were delivered. It nearly broke our company. During the chaos the workers at our SC plant voted in the Union, taking our company by surprise, our company negotiated with the union anyway, our almost $1billion investment was not paying off. About a year later the workers voted out the union. Right after that Boeing bought out our plant for $500 million. And a bit later Boeing announced they would build a final assembly plant there in SC for the 787-900 version. Is there a cause and effect of voting out the union thus being awarded more work? Who is to say, by the fed gooberment getting involved it shows the degree of hostility this administration has twards freedom of business to act in their own intrest. I hope our country can survive until 2012.
See my response to Hawkwatcher above
“Why do you think the rust belt is the rust belt?”
Something here about “Duh,” right in front of their faces.
“If the NLRB persists with this attack on one of the nation’s major employers, the costs will not just be economic, but political as well.”
Like the Democrats care. They would reather see the entire country go bankrupt in a unionized social-welfare state than allow Boeing to go to South Carolina. And the Democrats are not about to alienate their principal donors, the unions, just before a major election in 2012. Nope, this is a fight to the finish. Either the socialists and the union thugs win in 2012, or we break away from these social parasites and regain some common sense in the next election. Just another reason why NOT to support the Democrats next year.
they do not care if they bankrupt the country. In fact it is a necassary step in their program. Once bankrupt the people are more easily herded.
yep. That’s the strategy.
And when it happens, union members will quickly become as favored as the bourgeoise. The bosses, of course, expect to become commissars.
See USSR, circa 1925.
See also USSR, 1936-38. Nothing would brighten my declining years more than for the union bosses’ final words to be, “If only Comrade Obama knew what was happening!”
Great post!
Akatsukami-san, as usual, you drop in a few well-chosen words and make me unsure whether to laugh or cringe.
Who did you say was running the country, the unions? The follow a spirit foreign to our Constitution whose end is poverty for all.
I used to live and work in Washington State, and now live and work in South Carolina precisely because of its closed shop laws.
After being unemployed for 16 months I finally landed a job at the DOE’s Hanford site. I had three options: 1) accept the offer and join the union, 2) accept the offer, don’t join the union but I’d be forced to pay the dues anyway, or, as the article noted above, 3) don’t take the job and remain unemployed.
Why folks don’t understand that what unions do in closed-shop states is tantamount to extortion: If you want to work, you pay up. If you don’t pay, you don’t work. When I took that job, that was the choice I faced.
Furthermore, this job was paid for with massive amounts of money supplied by taxpayers through the so-called American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. How many millions, if not billions, of dollars have flowed into union coffers because of that travesty of a law passed in 2009?
Thank God for the South and right to work states like South Carolina.
Daniel thats why no one retires to the north. we have our own little bit of heaven right here in DIXIE. and part of that is having for the most part intelligent law makers,
Senator Harkin, who has repeatedly lied about flying combat missions over North Vietnam as a Navy fighter pilot, is incapable of embarrassment.
As are those citizens of the state of Iowa who keep voting for him anyway.
This needs to be continuous headlines and the Dems need to be made to defend their closed shop support. The best way to do that is for the House to pass restrictions on function and funding for the NLRB. They can then use the funding restriction to keep alive any move by the Democratic senators to overturn the legislation and support the NLRB.
This of course would be vetoed even if passed. But now Obama is at risk before 2012 as are a number of Senators like the two Nelsons and will shape races in states like AZ and WI.
The fun will be watching how the Dems deal with the issue.
Boeing will almost certainly keep this in the public eye as much as they can, with the unwitting assistance of the NLRB. Once the NLRB rules–and it will probably rule against the SC plant–Boeing will predictably appeal to the courts, and it’ll hit the news every time a court rules on it.
That, or Boeing will do what many other American companies have done: move the production to China and the incorporation papers off-shore.
The Dems have their backs against the wall here. They can either support the unions and get funds to run, or they can back away from the unions and go into the next election with empty coffers. If they support the unions they risk a heavy backlash from non-union people who see unions as the killer of jobs in America as per this article. If they don’t, they go broke. What to do?
When all else fails, break out the baseball bats, and that is just what the Obama people are doing, using old union tactics. In this case, a baseball bat against Boeing. The thought seems to be, if we clobber the big guys hard enough, the little people will all fall into line. I believe this line of thinking is badly flawed. The Nation is faced with a revolt of the little people, the mom and pop, the Granny with her walker, the teen waving the “Dont Tread on Me” flag. I doubt the “little people” will be frightened off by White House sanctioned thugery.
I am reminded of an old Wizard of Id cartoon. The King is standing at the castle walls when Sir Rodney comes up. Sir Rodney says “Sire, the peasants are revolting.” To which the King replys in a dry discusted voice, “I know.” For Obama and the Dems, all these peasants are “revolting.” They aren’t the ones invited to the black tie chicken dinner affairs at the Capital Hilton. Who then are they to tell the Democratic leadership how to run a country? Who do all these little people think they are? Do they really think our country belongs to them? Eg-gads, what a thought!
So, yes, this plan to clobber Boeing will fail and ultimately back fire on the Dems. The little people are in revolt, and aren’t about to be cowed by a thug. But then, picking up the baseball bat and acting like thugs is about all Democrats know what to do.
“The Dems have their backs against the wall here. They can either support the unions and get funds to run, or they can back away from the unions and go into the next election with empty coffers. If they support the unions they risk a heavy backlash from non-union people who see unions as the killer of jobs in America as per this article. If they don’t, they go broke. What to do?
When all else fails, break out the baseball bats, and that is just what the Obama people are doing, using old union tactics.”
I think this may be the most egregious action taken yet in the union vs. right-to-work debate, and in the “fundamental transformation” Obama spoke of during his campaign. It’s less jolting to see the SEIU thugs pushing, screaming, or marching with the communist party in the May Day parade in LA, but quite something else to watch Obama’s appointees in the government nakedly usurping the rights of private business to locate their production facilities that will maximize their potential, both in profit and productivity. As the Republican candidates for 2012 start to emerge, this issue needs to be one that’s front and center demonstrating Obama’s overreach in his appointment of Craig Becker, whose nomination was denied through constitutional Senate vetting.
I think that, maybe, the American People should be REMINDED of the number of JOBS, and support JOBS, that would be created, if the DEMOCRATS would stop preventing AMERICAN COMPANIES, from taking AMERICAN ENERGY RESOURCES out of the ground.
I think that the American People need to be REMINDED of all of the SHOVEL READY INFRASTRUCTURE JOBS that were promised, by this Marxist President, and new Inquiries should be made, on behalf of the American People, on WHERE every red cent of that $800 BILLION Stimulus/Slush Fund money went.
Don’t you?
You can’t “remind” people without a mind.
Several generations of brainwash and no education from 60/70s radicals have left the nation with a mouth-breathing, ‘social networking’ electorate who vote early and often for every $10 shelled out by ward heelers spreading cash from ‘stimulus funds’ filtered through Demo-rat hacks. Lots’o'luck!
gommy I agree with you 110%. as an independant voter and a very independant person I will be so glad to see the demise of the DUMMYCRAT party,
My two cents. There was a time when at least we had the strong impression that the Democratic Party was defending the lot of the American worker, while the GOP did likewise with American business. But after 1968 the Democrats abandon the sweaty masses and got involved in a threesome with Academia and the Loonies & Perverts club. Lately some in Big Business have joined that frolicking happy party (Bill Clinton must be enchanted with my analogy by now.)
The result is what we see. Jobs gone overseas, the ability to compete in the global market almost gone. The GOP is far from being virtuous but the moral inconsistencies of the DP have reached the point of no return.
DP (and RINOs), Continue taxing work: social security, medicare, medicaid, state income, federal income, city income.
DP (and RINOs), Continue taxing property: I have a friend in Connecticut that pays more in property taxes on his modest home than he ever paid for mortgage. And now Connecticut has passed a new budget that will increase taxes even more. That seems to be the case in many states accross the Union: no cuts in spending, not even cosmetic–PAY MORE TAXES you dirty blue collar smelly a$$es.
DP (and RINOs), continues scheming to tax those corporations that still employ Americans against all odds.
WAKE UP AMERICAN WORKERS, the DP is the whore and the union bosses are the pimps. You look like an idiot showing up at the bordello with flowers and a box of chocolates. Your sweetheart is a $lut!
Your first and last paras are classic, and historically accurate (e.g., 1968).
Highly quotable!
“I have a friend in Connecticut that pays more in property taxes on his modest home than he ever paid for mortgage.”
In NJ we consider Connecticut one of the LOWER property tax state.
Catino said, “WAKE UP AMERICAN WORKERS, the DP is the whore and the union bosses are the pimps. You look like an idiot showing up at the bordello with flowers and a box of chocolates. Your sweetheart is a $lut!”
That’s how latinos feel right now. They are the Johns that handed over the money only to see the whore and pimp slip out the back door. Suckers!
Want to see what union thugs can do to a state? Come to NV where the hospitality unions and mob run the state. Both the Assembly and Senate are headed by union thugs (Assembly Speaker collects his full $250,000 fire chief’s salary while serving in the elected office), and we get radical legislation that will screw the state even deeper into debt if it wasn’t for a sensible Republican Governor.
Slightly o/t but a relevant illustration
In the Seventies as huge deposits of oil were discovered in the North Sea the oil companies moved in.
Drilling rigs and platforms were needed fast. We had two traditional centres of shipbuilding ideally suited to this type of maritime construction. One in Clydeside, Glasgow, the other Tyneside near Newcastle.
They had ample capacity and this was a golden opportunity to revive their declining fortunes.
Unfortunately the very unions which contributed to the decline were involved and such was their intransigence over working conditions, wages and other such as overtime payment the oil boys looked elsewhere.
Subsequently it was found to be cheaper and more effective to actually import manufacturing facilities and operating personnel from America, build the construction and assembly plants from scratch at new sites and then tow them to the drilling points.
The death knell sounded at that point for British shipbuilding, previously a world leader.
These decaying and disused shipyard sites are our rust belt. Unemloyment has never recovered and both areas now rely on relocated Government offices and call centres as sources of work. In other words gerrymandered taxpayer funded and minimum wage job creation schemes.
So much for unions.
I was stationed in Dunoon, Scotland in the early ’80′s. I remember driving along the Clyde and seeing all the idle shipyards. The only work going on were a few fishing boats hauled out for hull cleaning. No construction was going on. The greedy unions struck all the jobs right out of the country. Is that what NLRB et al want? A Boeing plant overseas?
Interesting read. Instead of a meaningful debate, I see a lot of people here just agreeing with each other. “Preaching to the choir” is what they usually call that. I guess that is one of the effects of the Big Sort.
Thanks for so ably demonstrating the polarization of this country, *our* country. I’ve worked for unions and I see their value. They are a countervailing force to the “pro-business” faction that sees employees as only mere cattle. “Right to work” means, “right to exploit”. I’ve seen it myself.
You would be wise to consider both sides of the story.
Mr Dunn, I see your point. I too work in a union and, for the most part, I don’t think my shop has ever had the attitude that shutting the company down would ever solve any issues. There is a tendency for “big corporate” to want to get as much work from an employee as it can, while paying the employee as little as possible. On the other side, there is a tendency for the employee to get paid a maximum, while working the minimum.
As long as a union can help keep the happy balance, as was mentioned in previous posts by others, unions in 1917 were a breath of fresh air when factories wanted workers to toil for 12 to 14 hours a day with a fifteen minute lunch break. But on the other side of that coin, we have evolved into people getting ridiculous benefits and perks with union “leadership” somehow getting obscene sums of money in their pay.
Never underestimate the ability of people to game any system. It’s the gaming of the system that can break a company. The union, originally placed there for the protection of the worker from unfair treatment by company management and for fair and equitable compensation, have grown out of their nests and taken over. I think most Americans would agree that the establishment of the eight-hour workday and laws that prevent abuse were good things but I believe they would also agree that getting paid 60 bucks an hour to put lugnuts on Cadillacs is absurd. Not to mention the number of sick days, vacation days, holidays, etc., etc. When is enough, enough?
My union works to an equitable agreement in the private sector.
Public sector unions, which have no counterpart in the private sector, never have anyone, except the tax-payer to work against. Wisconsin just showed us how well that’s going. Why should a teacher get paid more than what most of the taxpaying public makes? How is that sustainable? Why does a public sector union employee get so many perks, pay incentives (“bonuses”) for doing what the taxpayers have charged them to do? And where do they think the money is going to come from when they demand more? The governor will give it to them because they want the public sector union vote….the apparatchiks in government will want it because they, themselves are part of said unions, and the taxpayers get left holding the bag; Held hostage by PSU’s.
What has been lost is the ability for people to actually be objective. That is, to willingly admit that they don’t need nor deserve so many perks, bennies and favors. To say nothing of the compulsory dues that end up being spent to get socialists elected. My own union did that with my $900+/year dues money and I’m furious about it.
Gaming the system, AKA corruption is and has been the bane of our presence on Earth since Cain and Able. Being reasonable is paramount and logic must prevail; Not selfish desire.
What has been lost is the ability for people to actually be objective. That is, to willingly admit that they don’t need nor deserve so many perks, bennies and favors. To say nothing of the compulsory dues that end up being spent to get socialists elected. My own union did that with my $900+/year dues money and I’m furious about it.
It’s not unusual for me to hear from union members that they are furious about something or another – or often many things – that their union has done. The thing I never understand is why union members don’t reform their unions from within. Why not choose more moderate representatives who actually see the employer as the goose that lays the golden eggs and who don’t want to kill that goose? Are unionized workers unable to understand the games that their leaders are playing, games that may lead to the company being weakened, forced to outsource offshore or even file for bankruptcy?
Or are they like the scorpion in the story of the scorpion and the frog where the scorpion kills the frog even at the expense of drowning itself because to kill its benefactor “is its nature”?
“I never understand…why union members don’t reform their unions from within.”
Because dental work is expensive, it’s difficult to make a living with two broken arms, and the union health plan won’t pay for injuries suffered in the alley behind Vinnie’s Bar (which is two hours away from your home, in the wrong direction, and nobody can quite explain why a sober man would pick a fight with three guys twice his size.)
You beat me to it, Dens. My reply was a variation on the theme: “Nice home you have, Mr Reardon. And your wife Jennie is such a sweet lady, driving that blue Chrysler van licence number ABC123 to pick up your kids Joey and Susan at the Millard Filmore School, then taking Joey to the YMCA at 23 Skidoo Street, and Susan to ballet lessons at Miss Hutchinson’s School of Dance at Oak and Elm…”
How perfectly hideous for a business to want to get as much production for cost out of its workforce as possible. That is just immoral! Meanwhile, an employee wanting to get as much compensation for as little work as possible? Why positively ANGELIC!
Let us acknowledge the right for all workers to collective bargaining with the limitation that it is a right, but should not be a condition of employment. The results of collective bargaining are often to the detriment of the workers. The UAW got sweetheart deals, and management looking the other way when workers got less and less productive. Result? Check out the nearest lot for Hondas, Nissans and Toyotas, and check out Detroit’s dismal streets or available manufacturing space here in Fenton, Missouri.
The public sector is much the same in that the negotiators across the table from the unions are as spineless, perhaps even more corrupt, then those of the Big Three who gave away the store to the UAW. So let us seek legislation that would require public sector contracts be put to the vote of the taxpayers, just as the UAW contracts and member behavior were put to the vote of the car buyer. Unions’ and management’s last best offers go on the ballot for a binding vote by the electorate. And, should we feel the politicians charged with representing us are too spineless, or have made too generous an offer to the unions, we need only look down the ballot to find the opportunity to throw them out.
By all means we need to consider both sides, that is why the right to work has the upper hand.
R.G. LeTourneau, the designer of the huge earth moving machines that built our highways like to say that men could have what men produced. The closed shop is not favorable to production so we have less but it cost more. The right to work means the right to produce.
The farmer doesn’t have to work but if he intends to harvest he will work. If he intends to eat he will have to produce a harvest. The unions can’t connect cause with effect.
I have worked in a unionized company. Does anybody remember Carborundum? Maybe not, they were strangled by featherbedding union members.
My wife is in a union. Again, closed shop. We can only hope that the company survives until she hits retirement age. It will be close.
The balance, alas, is no balance at all. The unions are simply fund raisers and political labor for the Democrats. They are parasites that do little to nothing for the members.
The NT nowhere authorizes choirs; but commands, in several places,all to sing,
Col.3.16; ICor.14.15; Eph.5.19, etc. The use of musical instruments is not authorized, either.
Nonetheless, most denominations merrily ignore this lack of authority and use choirs and instruments.
Perhaps the choir sometimes needs to be preached to.
The Old Testament however, contains psalms written specifically to choir directors, and I am not aware of anything in the NT abolishing choirs, and the same argument goes for musical instruments, so I think you need to find a better example.
God is not a “anything not specifically permitted is denied, but a “These things are prohibited, other than that, love thy neighbor and accept Jesus and you are fine”
Scot, if unions have real value, they can survive in an environment where membership isn’t coerced, by law or by mob violence.
Well said. Let’s see if their lavish salaries, perks and retirement benefits can withstand the pressures of the market. My guess is NO! Overpriced, substandard products do not last long in the market, unless they are Chinese and sold at WalMart.
[Scott Dunn] Interesting read. Instead of a meaningful debate, I see a lot of people here just agreeing with each other. “Preaching to the choir” is what they usually call that.
[El Wapo] You have got to be kidding me. Although Hot Air attracts conservatives, liberals and independents are free to comment, and usually do, without the intervention and harassment of the moderator, if any. Try that at Democratic Underground, where any dissenting commentary brings out the ban hammer.
[Scott Dunn] I guess that is one of the effects of the Big Sort.
[Scott Dunn] Thanks for so ably demonstrating the polarization of this country, *our* country.
[El Wapo] You can thank liberals, leftists, and the Democrat party for that. They are the ones with the “my way or the highway” mentality. Republican politicians of all shades are always “compromising” with the opposition, only to be betrayed by them.
[Scott Dunn] I’ve worked for unions and I see their value. They are a countervailing force to the “pro-business” faction that sees employees as only mere cattle. “Right to work” means, “right to exploit”. I’ve seen it myself.
[El Wapo] If unions are so valuable, and if employers are so onerous and evil, then why are so many workers voting with their feet and fueling an exodus from union states to right to work states?
[Scott Dunn] You would be wise to consider both sides of the story.
[El Wapo] I understand your point of view, since you’re completely invested in the union scheme’s survival. Many union members couldn’t hack it in a right to work state, where performance, both actual work performed and character virtues like punctuality, integrity, and a sense of community within the company, is the principal driver in determining employment longevity.
Scott Dunn, I once had the interesting experience of attending a Teamsters strike vote. I was only 16 but I’ll never forget it. Te young guys with no family yelled and shouted about “teaching the company a lesson.” The older guys with kids, some in college, stood their quietly and watched their saving go away.
I suggest you read “Crash Course” especially the chapter on the Saturn. The union supervisor at the Saturn planted wanted to try to compete with the Japanese car companies and prove union labor could do as well. The UAW president, Yokich, wasn’t interested and torpedoed the project. That was the year he opened the UAW Country Club.
“Thanks for so ably demonstrating the polarization of this country, *our* country. I’ve worked for unions and I see their value. They are a countervailing force to the “pro-business” faction that sees employees as only mere cattle. “Right to work” means, “right to exploit”. I’ve seen it myself.”
First, please enumerate three “values” unions have brought to any company? Keeping mind that I will retort to any by telling you how much unions have done for: steel industry, auto industry, airline industry, government at all levels, etc.
Why must unions be a “countervailing force”? That means they are acting in an adverssarial manner to the owner. How can that be good?
“…sees employees as only mere cattle.” Granted in the 1920s-1930s things were bad but unions helped on so much. Economics governed business and by that I mean if a shop owner did not treat his employees in a decent manner they quit and he could not make his product… Sure they helped with child labor laws and sweat shops, but when they started threatening business with the introduction of the NLRB they killed business.
‘“Right to work” means, “right to exploit”. I’ve seen it myself.”‘
Oh, please cite your examples here. I will ask for only three. I can’t wait for this. And please tell us how and why SEIU personnel were working with and helping pro-communists march in SF as documented by Zombie; how about unions breaking up TEA Party rallies and town hall meetings? Is this the right to exploit you speak of? Please explain how unions and dem. pols in local government such as WI are working in the best interests of taxpayers???
My very first job was a union job – forced to pay with nothing of value in return. I’ve never, in my entire life (35 years later) worked for another union and I’ve always been able to find fair employment and I have never been “abused” by my employers.
I don’t what world you live in but I’ve found in my life that work has been a 50/50 proposition. They need stuff done and are willing to pay for people who know how to do stuff.
So, Mr. Scott Dunn. Where is your debate? You post a few sentences and run, criticizing about lack of debate. I think SG-1 has presented a very balanced argument. So where do you stand? I would especially like to hear your opinion on the Boeing issue.
HEATHER BUSHEY received her Economics Ph.D. from the New School for School Research. This says it all. Plus her heavy union background.
Unions are parasites with insatiable appetites.
Read “There Is No Alternative: Why Margaret Thatcher Matters”, by Claire Berlinski, to see how unions can suck a nation dry, and leave nothing for people to recover with. Unions, and Democrats, don’t really care about the people they “represent”. They simply want to suck the life out of the host.
The Democrat Party and their communist supporters are funneling money from the “stimulus” funds to their Party through the unions in all these “closed shop” states. Just like involuntary union dues, they are EXTORTING money from ALL AMERICAN TAXPAYERS, union and non-union alike, for their election campaigns, and voting blocks.
And they quit caring about how obvious their criminal activity has become, since they have stacked the deck with their subservient cronies to use against anyone who files a complaint or law suit against their tactics.
If this corruption is not reigned in during the next election cycle, nothing stands in their way to enact their ultimate agenda of “unionizing America” in a fashion that will make Russia and all other marxist/socialist states look primitive against their massive machine of compulsory “membership” and “dues” requirements.
They ultimately want only two classes of people in America: The worker class who pays for everything through their hard labor, and the ruling class that collects all the revenue, and makes the rules to live by.
Is this isn’t obvious to everyone by now, you don’t deserve the umbrella of freedom you are living under.
EXCELLENT POST! Short, accurate, and directly to the point!
Just a little addition to my previous post:
You stated, “…the ruling class that collects all the revenue, and makes the rules to live by.”
If I was part of the ruling elite I couldn’t think of better “rules to live by” than Islam and Sharia Law. I’m sure our humble leaders must be envious when ever they visit the Saudi royal family. As long as you control the Imams, you have complete control of the zombie head-bangers. You’re alway above the law and you need not fear alla, unless you’re stupid enough to believe he really exists.
Maybe this explains why we are being flooded with muslims in every western country without having any say in the matter.
<> OK. This is the most stupidly blatant lie of 2011. Frankenstein is a member of SAG, and as with all the Hollywood Guilds, really had no choice but to become a member. In this light his statement is especially cynical.
@Scott Dunn
Duly considered. No debate needed. Seen union actions at townhalls last year. Seen union actions in Madison, Wisconsin this year. Seen Detriot, Pittsburgh, Allentown. Seen the UAW golf resort.
See ya. Raise you the right to work unmolested by union bosses who take a cut for no reason.
Detroit: highest per capita income in the universe in 1940. Always had unions, always governed by Democrats. The proof is in the pudding. The US had a two party system so that the DIALOGUE between Work and Capital could produce an equitable result for all involved. A perfect system it’s not and it has been abused by both sides. But if We The People are vigilant and vote with our brains we can make the system work to everyone’s gain.
Detroit: the proof is in the pudding: Henry Ford put lots of people to work. The unions and government came and now innovation, quality, and jobs are in Kyoto, Seoul, Shanghai, Ludwisburg, etc.
“What side are you on?”
Detroit 1940 was still in the great Depression. After WWII, Detroit had no competition, world wide: Germany and Japan in ashes, Korea and China in their infancy, England, already strangled by their union mentality.
Detroit today: destroyed. Destroyed. Destroyed. By unions.
A friend still in high school in 1970 got a union job at a local foundry, sweeping off the tops of the furnaces. He attacked the job with gusto. Our first conversation after getting the job included, “Man, I went to work and they told me not to work so hard…it was making them look bad.” The foundry is long out of business.
Ask anyone who’s ever worked in a union if they were instructed to slow down “cause it makes the rest of us look bad.” If they’re old-timers, they probably forgot. The rest are probably sons of union members who taught them the ropes before they even got to the job.
Only a matter of time until they all look like Detroit.
I’ve worked with Boeing union guys. They complain about the amount of work they’re asked to do, then complain if they are not included for the job because they’d miss out on the double or triple overtime and then go on strike at the drop of a hat if their demands aren’t met. Yeah, that’s a sure path to prosperity….
I received an education about unions when I was a college student in CA. I got a job working at a huge plant the processed cheese for a major pizza chain in the US. Since it was a temporary summer job, the boss said I would not have to join the union. About 2 weeks later, while working, the local union thug, walked through the plant. He took one look at me & said, “Who are you?” I told him & his next words were, “Well, if you want a job tomorrow, you better joint the union.” I was livid! Never saw this goldbricker again until the next summer,when I promptly returned to work, as a member of the late Jimmy Hoffa’s union. He was walking around w/ some tatooed long haired biker dressed guy in tow. Interestingly enough, he started work the next day. Naturally, he was said union official’s son. This kid later on passed away of a drug overdose.
Since then I have wanted NOTHING to do w/ unions. They ripped off a chunk of our pay & did absolutely nothing for us. This includes being a teacher in CA where I had to join the cussed NEA. Now there is a joke of a union for ya. Most of the $ they scammed from us went straight to democratic candidates. In all the years I taught, never once did I ever see them use their blood money for anything worthwhile & NEVER endorsed any republcan. Talk about hacks…
DEMOCRATS FIGHT FOR A WOMANS RIGHT TO CHOOSE IN ORDER FOR THE RIGHT TO KILL THEIR UNBORN CHILDREN WHILE FIGHTING AGAINST THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE ABOUT BEING IN A UNION. DEMS WOULD RATHER KILL BOEING AND OTHER BUSINESSES THAN GIVE UP THEIR MONEY LAUNDERING UNIONS. DEMS ONLY CARE ABOUT ADVANCING DEPENDENCY AND THEIR VOTER BASE FOR 2012. “DUNG HEAP” HARKIN IS A PATHETIC OLD FOOL.
Well if capital can’t within the U S it can move out of it,[ not necessarily true for Boeing]. And leftists wonder why. You can’t expect consistency from those bordering on the criminally insane,& who have found an outlet in politics, but weren’t they the swine oinking about the Global Community ? And yet you can’t move capital within the U S A. Come to think of it, they don’t want capital flow in the Global Village either. But it’s a great place to sing about, a chorus please of “We Are the World”, then duck.
Having been a member of a union throughout my working career I felt it was a necessary evil. It was ALPA or the Airline Pilots Association. It was more structured towards safety and job protection than straight money or feather bedding like most uninons. However when elections came up the union would take OUR dues money and give it to the Democrat who was running for president. The union body of memebers was about 85% Republican but the union boss decided who got the money. It was always based on what the Dems would “Give” us as a group. Never did the welfare of the company come into play until bankruptcy became common. At that point LOCAL unions stepped in to make drastic cuts in pay and benefits to keep their companies afloat. Have you ever heard of a state or city union doing that? Taking cuts to their pensions and medical benefits? Local unions are not the evil monsters that national unions are. One way to accomadate unions would be to make them local only to the plant they work in even throughhout one state where the company had several plants. And never allow them to become nationalized. Why should any state school teacher belong to a national union? Or trucker or car maker? As a last resort Boeing needs to make it clear that if this challenge prevails that they will start making ALL of their parts offshore and only assemble the parts in Wa. Think of the job losses then.
@inspectorudy See my reply to Hawkwatcher above and note what I say about the double tree.
You have made a point I believe to be important, the real reason for having a labor union or association, which is to work out conflicts of interest with businesses. Neither side will have all the right answers. Wage is always a conflict of interest but there are natural laws that govern the value of the job in question. With a local business owned by the boss there is little need to have an organization. You can speak for yourself, but with a corporation, everyone is an employee, including the boss. Then the need arises of an organization to talk to an organization. Using the Golden Rule as a guide we can see that we need to limit our wages to their value. In the vineyard labor is working against time to get the harvest before it spoils. Labor has some leverage but for labor to prosper the employer must also prosper which is a limiting demand on the cost of labor. This boils down to my best long range interest should be line with the best long range interest of the business. Labor wages become customer power and customer power means product demand. It is very straight forward but not obvious. There is a need for an organization under certain conditions that requires the exercise of wisdom rather than force.
When the Boesings of this country move their next plant out of the country will the Progressive Communists in Washington bring in the jackboots and firing squads?
If you look carefully, you will find that the 777, 767 have significant production plants (Chinese wings, Italian tails ect) outside the US. Boeing used to bring foreign engineers through the 747 fuselage line (then Northrop, now Vought) in recurring attempts to get an alternative production line. That non union plant continued to have higher productivity than any alternative. In many cases, the foreign country plants could not do the work, and subcontracted major parts to back to US non-union workers.
Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door. Unions and Democrat/Socialists conspire to prevent better mousetraps, and so grass grows on their streets.
I got my union eduction while working as an engineer in a non-union factory in the early 90s. We started a joint venture with a union company and the product had to go from our factory to thiers and back again during production. One of our direct labor (non-union) workers came up with a significantly faster and better way to ship the product. The union side would not agree to the change. When I informed our direct labor, their question was ‘why?…it is less work’. Being raised in Detroit, I said ‘exactly’. Oh – that union company is gone now – went out of business.
Senator Harkin is probably confusing Boeing with corn/ethanol & subsidies. I mean, you can’t move a corn field, so what’s the difference, corn, jet planes??
Franken the ugly stupid buffoon, a caricature of a civilized human, living testimony to the minds and judgment of Minnesota voters.
Congratulations to Senator Mike Enzi for not allowing the Democrat Talent Show to continue on its own agenda.
This should be standard fare in OUR CONGRESS.
DO NOT LET THE DEMOCRAT PARTY (OR UNIONS) DICTATE THE DIALOG.
Union Sundown – Bob Dylan
Well, my shoes, they come from Singapore
My flashlight’s from Taiwan
My tablecloth’s from Malaysia
My belt buckle’s from the Amazon
You know, this shirt I wear comes from the Philippines
And the car I drive is a Chevrolet
It was put together down in Argentina
By a guy makin’ thirty cents a day
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
’Til greed got in the way
Well, this silk dress is from Hong Kong
And the pearls are from Japan
Well, the dog collar’s from India
And the flower pot’s from Pakistan
All the furniture, it says “Made in Brazil”
Where a woman, she slaved for sure
Bringin’ home thirty cents a day to a family of twelve
You know, that’s a lot of money to her
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
’Til greed got in the way
Well, you know, lots of people complainin’ that there is no work
I say, “Why you say that for
When nothin’ you got is U.S.–made?”
They don’t make nothin’ here no more
You know, capitalism is above the law
It say, “It don’t count ’less it sells”
When it costs too much to build it at home
You just build it cheaper someplace else
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
’Til greed got in the way
Well, the job that you used to have
They gave it to somebody down in El Salvador
The unions are big business, friend
And they’re goin’ out like a dinosaur
They used to grow food in Kansas
Now they want to grow it on the moon and eat it raw
I can see the day coming when even your home garden
Is gonna be against the law
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
’Til greed got in the way
Democracy don’t rule the world
You’d better get that in your head
This world is ruled by violence
But I guess that’s better left unsaid
From Broadway to the Milky Way
That’s a lot of territory indeed
And a man’s gonna do what he has to do
When he’s got a hungry mouth to feed
Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
’Til greed got in the way
Copyright © 1983 by Special Rider Music
“Sure was a good idea, ’til greed got in the way”.
Greed is to be expected of all human beings. That’s why we fought to get rid of a king that thought his colonies were like hay that has to be cut from time to time for his use and pleasure. The problem is that the cocktail of high taxation + union dues dries the pocket of the workers. It’s all a tax on labor. Now, taxes are the price we pay to have ORDER in society (policemen, armies, roads, etc.) but once you go past a certain threshold the price of order is too high. At that point the worker realizes he is a fool if he does not cut himself a little slack, the employer starts seeing salaries as a heavy burden. Like they used to say in the USSR: “They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work.” Since unions are not as “international” as they pretend to be, and there is no country that can control the whole world… eventually the guy (worker or employer) that can move moves to a place where order is cheaper. That is why workers move to RTW states and corporations move to Singapore, Taiwan, etc. It’s the invisible hand of markets. A person much wiser than I am said once “the price of money is just another price.” Paraphrasing I could add “the price of order is just another price.”
The world is out of fools to freeload on. Unions are not aware of that reality and therefore their “no product” is not selling anymore. They are trying to sell it by force by getting in bed with Big Government. They don’t realize yet that you can sleep with Leviathan for only one night. In the morning he will have you for breakfast.
Unions accomplished much for the working man. The problem is BIG Union, no longer controlled by and no longer caring about individual working men and women. Just as in BIG government, the cure is now the problem. That does not make unionism a bad thing in itself any more than obesity makes eating a bad thing.
No doubt that a union where the workers are in control and bargain effectively without necessarily having to sustain a parasitic bureaucracy would be much better than the mafia-style unions of today. There is nothing wrong with workers united to avoid being steamrolled by unscrupulous businessmen. But if you combat one exploiter by adding another you’re not being smart. If that is accomplished by antagonizing capital at large then don’t complaint when no one in your union’s area of influence moves to Asia.
I meant to write “everyone” instead of “no one”. Lapsus scripti.
@Thomas_L…..
The problem is BIG Union.
They are more socialist than Lenin
and more antisemitic than Hitler.
Anyone heard of Sid Ryan?
I’m from South Carolina and I like seeing people raising hell over this issue. My uncle was hired and promptly laid off from helping build the Boeing facility because he wasn’t union. Sen Franken is plain wrong.
You think our economy took a hit when the auto industry could no longer compete with foreign competitors; what are we going to do when we lose our aviation industry? Like Harley Davidson, nobody builds an airplane like an American.
Your are right. I would add that nobody destroys wealth like an American union.
Another witness, Heather Boushey, is a forgettable economist from the Center for American Progress
(ah yes, that crowd funded by George Soros.)
… she spent most of her time attacking our “Wal-Mart” economy.
Democrats+Unions=Demonions, although they are better known as the ‘useful idiots’ of the communists who now control them.
Since the 1970s, US manufacturing increased 2.5 times (that’s 250% increase) yet manufacturing jobs decreased by 25%.
This has nothing to do with Democrats or unions. It has to do with global competition and economics and many assembly line jobs are being replaced with automation, which explains why jobs decreased.
Oh, some majority. Twelve democrats and ten republicans and this is the Senate where the Democrats hold a slight lead. The majority party is in charge as the Republicans in the Congress. It’s just politics.
Example: During some of the Clinton Administration, the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress and for several years under G. W. Bush the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress.
Explain how the Republicans still managed to spend more than the Federal government collected in revenues. How can it be the fault of the minority at that time?
In addition, there was mention of an American dream. Do you mean the one funded by credit card debt? The average American family has about ten thousand in credit card debt to fund that American dream and the politicians (Republican or Democratic) did not bend their arms to charge that lifestyle.
Wal-Mart and Costco are both non-union so explain why Costco employees are paid more, have a better health plan and retirement than Wal-Mart employees. In fact, where are most of the products that Wal-mart and Costco sell manufactured and assembled? Not in the US.
Apple Computer is now worth more than Microsoft. Where are Apples products manufactured and assembled? Not in the US.
In 2010, Intel opened its first manufacturing plant in China. Union membership is mandatory in China.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9193038/Intel_opens_first_chip_manufacturing_plant_in_China
Then there is the Ford manufacturing plant in Brazil.
This state-of-the-art manufacturing complex in the northeastern Brazilian state of Bahia is not only the centerpiece of Ford’s Brazilian turnaround plan, it is also one of the most advanced automobile plants in the world. It is more automated than many of Ford’s U.S. factories, and leaner and more flexible than any other Ford facility. It can produce five different vehicle platforms at the same time and on the same line.
http://www.isa.org/InTechTemplate.cfm?Section=NewHome&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=70848
In the US, the number of workers represented by unions fell from 9% to 6.9% between 2000 and 2010.
According to the CIA Factbook, the labor force in the US is 154.9 million, which means about ten million belong to labor unions. Wow, a big threat to the economic future of the US. There are more unemployed workers than members of labor unions.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html
The war on labor unions in the US will not end until there are no labor unions.
“This has nothing to do with Democrats or unions. It has to do with global competition and economics and many assembly line jobs are being replaced with automation, which explains why jobs decreased.”
The problem is that the unions are impeding “global competition”, with the help of the Democrats. All of those statements you made about which products are made overseas could be the result of the unions impeding global competition and companies moving operations overseas to get away from such impediments.
“According to the CIA Factbook, the labor force in the US is 154.9 million, which means about ten million belong to labor unions. Wow, a big threat to the economic future of the US. There are more unemployed workers than members of labor unions.”
It is a big threat when unions and government are in collusion. With their money they are a formidable force, much more powerful than regular voters. Why is the NLRB full of ex-union lawyers? It’s what the unions expect after putting Obama in office. The unions own the NLRB and have enough power to go after Boeing. It’s an economic threat if Boeing decides to move overseas. And the public unions are worse. Look at California, or don’t you consider that an economic problem? Unions are big business, in cahoots with the governments.
Sorry, hit the send button too soon. The above is from jarmo.
The NLRB may be able to temporarily stop Boeing from opening a plant in South Carolina, but in today’s global economy, such bureaucratic nonsense will just mean fewer American jobs and more jobs for workers in other countries. The most successful US companies (e.g., Apple) make all their products in China and similar developing countries. Sane managers prefer the problems of dealing with the Red Chinese rather than with the unions, the NLRB and the rest of the Obama administration. The “fundamental transformation” of which Our Dear Leader glowingly spoke before his election is from world leader to Third World Nation.
Bingo! Exellent post. Hey Scott, read this ya tool.
“Luttig emphasized that a union strike in 2008 in Washington shut down production of the 787, costing Boeing more than a billion dollars and “damaging Boeing’s reputation for reliability with its airline customers, suppliers, and investors.” Boeing took into account many different factors in making a major assembly investment decision, and the recurring strikes in Washington was just one of them.”
This is utter BS. I happen to have many friends who work at Boeing Everett where the 787 production line resides. I’m also a retired Boeing employee. The 787 line was in slow production BEFORE the 2008 strike due to problems getting assembly parts from various vendors – including Vought Aircraft and Alinia as mentioned by 3. aeroguy48 in his post. Even had the Machinists not gone on strike Boeing would have had no choice but to delay the 787 and slow production. There simply were not enough sub-assembly parts to put an airplane together. Even after that strike production was slow due to parts shortages.
I believe that Boeing will prevail in their wish to have an assembly line in SC – I think it’s the right thing to do. This ruling by the NLRB is ludicrous and will only serve to further Boeing’s desire to leave Washington State behind sooner than they had planned. Nobody wins when that happens.
There is a lot of skilled labor at Boeing that they’d be leaving behind if they moved to SC lock stock and barrel – I’m sure there would be many engraved invitations to move with them and for very good reason. While I’m sure there is much skilled labor in SC I know what it takes to build an airplane – a good mechanic takes 3-6 years to become proficient as an airframe mechanic. I was a Quality Assurance Inspector for many years at Boeing so I know what I’m talking about. I was also a Union Steward for many of those years – and a conservative for all of them. Sounds like a conflict of interest situation doesn’t it? It wasn’t. I let the Union Business Rep know where I stood when it came to politics. I was never bothered for not manning the phones for idiots like Patty Murray, et al.
Right on, KT. I’m a current Boeing employee (30+ years). Vought and Alenia were/are the worst performing, most mismanaged suppliers in the entire mismanaged 787 program, and that is saying something!
One Boeing executive I know who was demoted due to their poor performance in several assignments ended up leaving Boeing where their career was essentially over, and got a position with Vought.
Forgotten, or ignored, amongst the union and blue collar laments that all the manufacturing jobs are going overseas is the fact that the US remains (for the time being) the top industrial producer on the planet. Although our manufacturing output as a percentage of GDP has steadily declined over the last several decades, we still out-produce Germany, Japan and China. The real question for Democrats and the unions: Why is there so little of this activity going on in the Rust Belt and other closed-shop states?
Forgotten, or ignored, amongst the union and blue collar lamentations that all the manufacturing jobs are going overseas is the fact that the US is (for the time being) the top industrial producer on the planet. Although our manufacturing output as a percentage of GDP has steadily declined over the past several decades, we still out-manufacture Germany, Japan and China. The question for Democrats and unions, then, is why so relatively little of this activity goes on in the Rust Belt and other closed-shop states.
Oops, I thought I lost my initial comment. Apologies for the double.
I think you mean “union shop,” not “closed shop.” The latter was outlawed by Taft-Hartley in 1947. In a closed shop, you must be a member of the union to be hired. In a union shop you must, once you’re hired, either join the union or agree to pay the equivalent of union dues.
6 of one, half dozen of the other. All they did was make it ok to hire non-union help as long as they immediately started paying the union (one way or another).
That (even more than the closed shop – which eventually fails by running out of hirees) encourages UNION abuse of employees. If they don’t have to please their membership to keep their membership, what incentive do they have to actually help the workers (which, btw, includes keeping the company in business)?
So how did Franken get out of joining AFTRA?
No one is ever forced to join a union?
In a right to work state no less, I was cornered by the grocery store union rep and forced to sign up for the union. i had no desire to, no need, nor did I have the back bone back then tell em to go pound sand.
Why do Republicans, conservatives, libertarians, and Ayn Randians (rightfully) want to
outlaw mandatory membership in a labor union as a condition of employment, but
support mandatory membership in an HOA union as a condition of home ownership?
Answer: Because conservatives, libertarians, and Ayn Randians support the right of parasitic collections attorneys to abuse individual American home owners, such as Michael Clauer, Wenonah Blevins, Pamela Bernhardt, Andrew Clements, Debra and Jessica Cohen, and countless other property owners whose stories are consistently ignored by the right-of-center blogosphere and media, including Pajamas Media, Fox News, Overlawyered, Reason, and other modern day Walter Durantys who idealize and idolize The Privatized Toll Road To Serfdom.
Telling people who are having their houses stolen, having their lives at home dictated by petty authoritarians, and being extorted from by greedy corporate lawyers that “you agreed to it” is only going to go so far before the victims start looking for their rights elsewhere.
In response to 39
WTF?
Where do you get the idea that conservatives, libertarians, Randians, etc. in any way promote the silly notion that all home owners should, by force of government edict, join Home Owners Association Unions? You’re simply and carelessly wrong!
What we do believe is that HOA unions have a right to exist; they have a right to have rules and regulations so long as they don’t attempt to circumvent standing Federal, state or local authority and they are, HERE IT IS, voluntary!
If you don’t want to join an HOA union, then don’t buy a house in a neighborhood that has them. I have owned 3 houses in my life and have only been a member of one HOA – which was a pain in the ass, but I read the covenants and voluntarily agreed to their terms as I wanted to live in the particular neighborhood where they were.
When you sign a contract, you are responsible for the terms of the contract whether you’ve read them and/or understood them or not! If you didn’t read them, shame on you for signing the contract. If you didn’t understand them, either shame on your poor, liberally controlled education and/or shame on you for not getting someone to explain them to you. The point is the onus is on you, not the HOA to make sure you understand them.
That being said, it is really stupid of any HOA to exercise the right to evict a home owner for failure to pay their dues, unless ALL OTHER remedies have failed.
It is never wise to pass judgment on something based on specific examples such as the ones you gave because emotions take a front seat and logic is pushed to the rear.
In the case of Michael Clauer, the HOA acted in a criminally stupid fashion, assuming they tried to come up with alternative remedies, but they didn’t act in any way criminal in a legal sense.
Again – what fantasy life do you lead where you think those whose primary objective is freedom and liberty are in favor of anything other than voluntary memberships in HOA’s?
What is your end goal, to make them illegal? Really, if that’s the case, what about all other voluntary associations that millions of Americans choose to become members of on a routine basis? Should they be illegal too?
Brad,
Did you read the original article, or any of the comments here?
The right-wing’s cognitive dissonance regarding
mandatory membership in a labor union as a condition of employment
vs
mandatory membership in an HOA union a a condition of home ownership
as typified by your response to my comment is downright Orwellian.
anonymous
Okay, I get it now, you post on sites, bulletin boards, blogs, etc. in a desperate attempt to point out hypocrisy where none exists in order to further your idiotic agenda.
I read the article before I responded to your fantastical musings and re-read it, along with all of the comments at your suggestion, thinking maybe I missed something and guess what. YOUR A STRAIGHT UP NUT JOB!
The original article is completely and utterly silent on HOA’s and save for your lunatic ravings in post 39, so are the comments.
You, my friend, need serious help.
“a desperate attempt to point out hypocrisy where none exists in order to further your idiotic agenda.”
Brad,
I don’t deny having an agenda, but let me put this in terms of a simple yes-or-no question so you can understand my point:
1. Do conservatives, libertarians, Republicans, Ayn Randians, etc. believe that workers should be required to join a union as a condition of employment, where mandatory membership in a labor union is a prerequisite condition of employment? [ YES / NO ]
2. Do conservatives, libertarians, Republicans, Ayn Randians, etc. believe that home owners should be required to join a union as a condition of home ownership, where mandatory membership in an HOA union is a prerequisite condition of home ownership? [ YES / NO ]
If the answer for 1 is different than the answer for 2, please explain why.
In answer to your questions
1. NO
2. NO
Unions are fine and people can chose to work for a union company or live in a neighborhood governed by HOA’s.
The existence of unions isn’t what we have a problem with; it’s the political power they wield to the detriment of companies they took no risk in building in particular and society as a whole. When/if HOA’s have the same kind of influence as the big labor unions, we will take them to task as well.
You are stretching the comparison greatly. HOA’s are voluntary associations whose representatives are focused on the neighborhood in terms of safety, upkeep, appearance, etc. They don’t negotiate your wages, your work hours or your benefits. HOA’s don’t wield enormous political power that is beholden to one particular party. HOA’s don’t perpetuate the employment of inferior workers. HOA’s influence housing prices to be sure, but mostly in the upward direction which the homeowners desire. HOA’s are governed by elected homeowners who live in the neighborhoods and therefore have a direct, immediate and local relationship to the rules that they pass that govern themselves as well as all of their neighbors. Are all HOA’s perfect? Hardly, nothing that involves human beings is perfect. Are they the same thing as big labor unions? Absolutely not.
My chief complaint of big labor unions isn’t the dues that you have to pay, but rather how those dues are spent and the raw and ugly fact that the union representatives have long since abandoned giving to $hit$ about the employees they supposedly were put in place to represent.
HOA’s do not have the same capacity to screw up not only the lives of those living in such controlled neighborhoods, but the country as a whole.
Suggest you kindly find some other issue that actually matters in the broader scope. And frankly, I don’t give a crap if HOA’s boot people out of their houses for failure to pay their dues, assuming 3 prerequisites
1. If the house is forced to be sold, the home owner has complete control of the sale and receive all proceeds save the back dues they own the HOA. They shouldn’t loose their rights as the owners of that property from a sales point of view.
2. If the dues are brought up to date, they immediately should be allowed back in their homes.
3. The HOA must obey all local, state and federal laws that apply.
That being said, were it my choice, eviction would be the absolute last remedy for homeowners who do not pay their dues. If, however, the homeowners make it clear they don’t intend to pay their dues, regardless of the reasons, then the HOA has but one choice – eviction. Otherwise the right of the rest of the homeowners to voluntarily enter in to HOA agreements is being infringed upon.
It’s called personal responsibility. You sign a contract that makes all of this clear up front so it’s your fault responsibility to fulfill the terms of that contract. If you fail to do so, you MUST suffer the consequences.
You clearly don’t understand the concept of liberty and freedom as you conflate these two ideas with people who chose not to follow the rules.
Correction
I should have said
1. YES
1. YES
Brad,
Like the product of an unholy union between Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore, your writing dispenses so may big-lies, half-truths, and “reasonable sounding” misrepresentations that I’m not sure where to begin. So I’m going to break my response up into smaller individual comments, rather than one large one.
Note that some of the material I quote uses the industry term “common interest development” (CID) or “community association,” which I will simply refer to as HOA.
1. “When/if HOA’s have the same kind of influence as the big labor unions, we will take them to task as well.”
No you won’t, because it’s already happened.
HOAs are a $50 billion (with a “b”) per year industry, whose assets are trillions of dollars of homeowners’ equity. They govern the lives of 60 million Americans (20% of the population).
How much bigger do they have to be?
7. “HOA’s are governed by elected homeowners who live in the neighborhoods and therefore have a direct, immediate and local relationship to the rules that they pass that govern themselves as well as all of their neighbors.”
Are you going to tell me that “labor unions are governed by elected co-workers who work with the union members, and therefore have a direct, immediate and local relationship to the rules that they pass that govern themselves as well as all of their co-workers”? If not, why not?
Every HOA I have ever lived in has been governed by investment owners who did not live in the neighborhood. And do you seriously believe that the HOA board members who do live in the HOA neighborhood are held to the rules they create? If so, you are woefully ignorant about the corrupting effects of power in the real world.
8. “Are they the same thing as big labor unions? Absolutely not.”
For reason’s detailed above and below, HOA unions are far worse than labor unions.
9. “My chief complaint of big labor unions isn’t the dues that you have to pay, but rather how those dues are spent and the raw and ugly fact that the union representatives have long since abandoned giving to $hit$ about the employees they supposedly were put in place to represent.”
Replace “employees” with “homeowners,” and it’s common complaint about HOAs that you choose to be willfully ignorant of.
12. “If, however, the homeowners make it clear they don’t intend to pay their dues, regardless of the reasons, then the HOA has but one choice – eviction. Otherwise the right of the rest of the homeowners to voluntarily enter in to HOA agreements is being infringed upon.”
So do you believe that
“If, however, a union member makes it clear they don’t intend to pay their dues, regardless of the reasons, then the employer has but one choice – termination of employment. Otherwise the right of the rest of the workers to voluntarily enter in to labor agreements is being infringed upon”?
If not, why not?
Also, foreclosure is not the only option available to HOAs.
I realize that you support the idea of lawyers using foreclosure as a collections method, but can you think of methods used by other creditors and bill collectors? Should credit card companies have a right to foreclose on a cardholder’s house?
What I’ve learned over the last 20 years is that unions are some holy organization that we must all bow down to. After all, we’d all be slaving away in the salt mines if it weren’t for the AFL-CIO and Jimmy Hoffa.
So; Do you continue licking Barrack’s boots, or work your way up?
Boeing should float this sort of a trial balloon…
“WIth deep Regret, due to the NLRB’s unfortunate restrictions on our ability to run our business as we see fit, by not opening Boeing to open a South Carolina assembly line, in order to protect the interests of our shareholders, employees and customers, Boeing has determined that it will immediately begin investigating the opening of a production facility in Mexico.”
Watch the heads spin ala Rosemary’s Baby.
How about we start by outlawing union dues for federal and state workers. They can still pay in to pensions and insurance but the dues are knocked off the wages. The taxpayers get a break by lowering the wages without inpacting the workers true wages. They can still have their unions it’s just that officers will be working as volunteers. The dues can no longer be used for supporting political parties. Monies spent from tax coffers are not supposed to be used to support politicians or political causes anyhow.
If this happens the private union members might give it a try.
If you look closely; in the 2003 movie “elf”, Will Ferrell was not the only elf that left the North Pole. Santa Claus booted Robert Reich on account of his poor economic policies and union pandering which nearly bankrupted the toy factory…
One thing that I have not heard in this discussion is the bureaucratization of the unions and the union monopoly of the AFL-CIO. Unions should be busted up using the same logic as anti-trust. Union management (interesting term that) no longer have the true interests of their members at heart, only their own power and greed. If unions were truly there to further the interests of their members they would ruthlessly weed out those that are incompetent to show that they are serious about the quality that their members produce (for the alternative look to the teachers unions) . This would make it hard for businesses to deny them decent working conditions and wages since the alternative would be a less competent work force and bad publicity. Instead they demand more for less and less.
For those who wish to view the whole thing, it is here: http://help.senate.gov/hearings/hearing/?id=bf9cac77-5056-9502-5d75-3499b6f85bd2
“Santa Claus booted Robert Reich on account of his poor economic policies and union pandering which nearly bankrupted the toy factory…”
Now that would make a good political ad around Christmas.
This is directly for Alfonse Frankly:
Al if your statement is true why do unions want laws passed so they can look over people shoulders while they vote? All Americans see how Unions work and intimidate and they really want to see who votes against them so they can intimidate them and their families. Like kicking a blackman who is down,while strewing trash throughout the Wisconsin Capitol and not refusing to allow the legislative procedure to work if it disagrees with them. Unions are no different than the Nazi Gestapo and the stronger they get the more violent they become. Their nitpicking rules and procedures destroy the American worker and his ability to compete.If America continues to allow folks like you to lead she will unfortunately get what she deserves.
This decision by the NLRB, sets up a conflict between the states that could be as damaging to the Union (of the states, not labor) as the conflict over slavery was. If the NRLB is going to forbid companies from expanding in right-to-work states, then why should right-to-work states remain in Union with closed shop states?
Minnesota did not vote for Al Franken the secratary of the state stole the election with forged ballots.
There was a time early in this century when businesses really did oppress their workers, and unions had a useful function. But in todays economy, when retaining skilled workers is any businesses most critical need, unions are largely unnecessary. I think US workers are now realizing that union bosses, and the workers they supposedly represent, do NOT have the same interest.
I do not dislike public employees, but I hate public employee unions.
6. “HOA’s influence housing prices to be sure, but mostly in the upward direction which the homeowners desire.”
You obviously have not been paying attention to the housing market for the past five years. Or are you going to tell me that housing prices collapsed everywhere except in HOAs?
There is no evidence that HOAs “preserve property values,” the excuse they have used for years to wield more power over individual American home owners. Besides, didn’t Ben Franklin warn us about giving up essential liberties for (the false promise of) property values?
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