Right Answer, Wrong Question
What is it that Congress hath wrought with the debt limit deal? It apparently depends on to whom you are addressing the question. Liberals believe it’s the end of the world as we know it. Conservatives believe they’ve been snookered. And nobody knows what the president thinks because he’s irrelevant and no one has bothered to ask him.
In truth, we’ve been witnessing a rare moment in American history: a debate about the size, the role, and the nature of government itself. Of course, it’s been an extremely nebulous sort of debate. Nobody has taken out impossible-to-read flow charts and tried to explain how the federal government actually works. Nor have we heard much quoting of Locke, Rousseau, Montesquieu, or Burke. Americans debate difficult issues by not debating them at all. We talk about something else, and pretend we’re discussing the real issue. While this has the effect of keeping the country from flying apart at the seams, it does nothing to advance the vitally important debates that define us as a nation and a people.
Consider the issue of slavery. We managed not to talk about it for 80 years, preferring instead to nibble around at the edges of it by arguing over where it should be allowed or banned. Only the abolitionists were willing to confront the issue and they were considered “extremists” by the Democrats of the day. If Lincoln had not been elected, it is very possible that we would have continued to tolerate slavery for decades, patching together compromise after compromise, kicking the can down the road for another generation to deal with.
So, too, the matter of equal rights. The “debate” over civil rights tore the Democratic Party asunder in 1964 when, instead of the Democratic convention talking about the Voting Rights Act, or civil rights, they talked about credentials. The all white, regular Mississippi Democrats were being challenged for seating on the convention floor by the “Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party,” who were made up of both blacks and whites. The regular Democrats had systematically excluded blacks by denying them the right to vote in the Democratic primary.
In the end, a perfectly American compromise was hammered out when two of the Freedom Democrats were granted alternate status while the rest of their party were designated as “invited guests” and seated on the floor. Most importantly, no future Mississippi delegation would be seated unless they adhered to the rules governing the choosing of delegates.
Further, we still don’t talk about race in America in any meaningful way. It is impossible when one side believes that it has a corner on morality and that any deviation from their treasured definitions of the issues surrounding race is tantamount to racism. When winning the argument is more important than fleshing out the points of contention that divide us, regular conversation is useless.
So it’s not surprising that the debate over the size, scope, and purview of government would take the form of a discussion about taxes and spending. It is much less convulsive to the body politic than arguing over far more difficult concepts like what the Constitution means, what should government’s role be in a 21st-century, industrialized, continental democracy of 300 million people, or real questions of liberty and tyranny upon which our future as a free nation hangs.
Whatever… Debt ceiling, shmett ceiling… It’s irrelevant.
I wish I could be more optimistic about America’s future, but here’s some reality for you. Americans of European ancestry, or Caucasians (or whatever you wanna call them) will soon be minority (2041) in their own country. What’s wrong with that? I don’t know, you tell me. Look around you. The nation is over. It’s all over. America is dying. In 50 years it won’t even be here. America will cease to exist. America will be overrun by “immigrants” from Mexico and Central America in the next generation or two.
Your country is desolate; your cities are burned with fire; as for your land — strangers consume its [yield] in your presence; it is desolate as if overturned by foreigners.-ISAIAH 1:7
Since 2010 the majority of births in the U.S. were to “minorities”… part of a historic trend in which “minorities” are expected to become the U.S. majority over the next 30 years… Thank you Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and George W Bush for destroying America. It will soon be impossible for a Conservative to ever get elected as President in America. When New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Florida, Georgia etc. switch over to the Dems (due to their changing demographics) then what are you going to do? In fact once Texas switches over to the Dems, it’s all over … You can kiss your country goodbye. We are going to have Socialism in America way before 2050, it will happen as soon as the states that I mentioned above switch over (permanently) to the Dems. America is well on it’s way to becoming a Third World Banana Republic. The truth of the matter is… both parties (for their own reasons) are in favor of mass immigration from Third World Nations (the immigrants are mostly illiterate and semi-literate peasants who come here to live off the fat of the land i.e. the American taxpayer) so it’s pretty obvious that the fix is in.
We are living in the last great days of the Great Republic of the United States of America…
You have to be a Caucasian to be an American? Who knew it was so simple? Let’s just amend the Constititution to say so and be done with it.
Do we deport my kids to Japan, where they don’t even speak the language, or just kill them because they don’t really belong anywhere?
Your reply is idiocy and people who share your views will ensure the demise of this country.
Mark,
Excuse the length, but youve struck a chord
No, you dont have to be Caucasion to be American…
You just have to have the same VALUES as the the people who built this nation…
But when you START your career in America with overt acts of dupliciousness and dishonesty, by sneaking in under the cover of darkness, (or intentionally oversaying a temporary visa) and THEN you engage in Identity Thieft to ogbtain bogus documents, and THEN you demand welfare services from the taxpayers, all while working “under the table” and paying none yourself, you’ll simply NEVER develop the kind of civic responsibility, sense of commitment, community, and patriotic love for the nation you live in….A genuine love of nation that is required FOR the nation to continue to prosper, and advance
When you do the above, when you are ENCOURAGED to do the above, you become an alien entitlement whore….contemptuous, even resentful of the better, more disciplined, more generous, fairer and more accomodating culture that created this nation, while simultaneously trying to milk it for everything you can.
You do not assimliate, you are in fact insulted by the notion you should.
You demand limitless goods and services to be supplied to you, in YOUR native tongue, sevices that are normally reserved for CITIZENS (like drivers licences) and you freely engage in a kind of tribal warfare with OTHER immigrants of similar, but not exact ansestry as yours.
To those liberals living in the Lilly White Costal Enclaves, I’m talking about the regular, unmentionable by the MSM, racial/ethnic gang violence that occurs every day, in every American city school, between Dominican vs Hatian, Mexican vs Columbian, El Salvadoran vs Costa Rican, American Blacks vs Asians and recently arrived “african” blacks, while you entertain obsolete fantasies of White Guys in Pick-up Trucks with Rebel Flags, destroyng the infrastructure and oppressing the poor frightened immigrant masses…
Oh, contraire. Its the White Guys with families who pay taxes that fear to tread in these neighborhoods.
And one Political Party in particular encourages this resentment and consumption of resources…They fuel your “victimhood” fantasies and lavish you with unearned gifts…Free education, including school supplied breakfast, lunch, dinner and weekend snack packages, The Dream Act for college, Welfare, food stamps, and now in Philladelphia, FREE CELL PHONES WITH 250 MINUTES PER MONTH…all primarily funded by that ever shrinking (relative) population of “wealthy” caucasions you’re always encouraged to disparage…..
One Party in particular, for cynical political porposes, constanly practices the “soft bigotry of low expectations”. They excuses you from the duties and conduct expected of responsible people. They fan the flames of, and even outright FABRICATE, incidents of disrespect towards you, for political gain. They stunt your moral growth and poison your ambitions by coddling you with promise after promise, never once expecting you to become fully self sufficient, because they you would no longer need THEM.
But what will happen when people like this become the majority?
43% of the population currently pays no federal income taxes.
Dare we examine the racial/ethnic/immigration status that make up of the 57% that do?
Imagine the outcry if we simply look at the facts, financial and otherwise.
Gee, my wife only gave up her friends, family, nationality, culture and language to marry me, come here and become an American citizen. It’s not good enough for Savage, because she isn’t Caucasian. Oh, she works, votes, and pays taxes too. She’s spent more than half her life here, but evidently that isn’t enough.
I guess it doesn’t matter that she came here legally either.
She isn’t a caucasian.
When does the ethnic cleansing start? I want to make sure we are out of town.
Don’t mind me. I’m done here. Break out the hoods and crosses.
Mark,
Congrats on your wonderful wife taking the time and effort to become a citizen.
I’m sure it was quite burdensome for both of you, following all those rules and jumping all those hurdles to acomplish that.
I wish EVERYONE who came here was like her.
But the problem is, too many people are NOT like you and your wife.
They simply demand to be here, thumbing their nose at our sovereignty, at our rules, and jump the line to join their criminal bretheren already here exploiting our systems, with no intention of ever becomming part of our national family.
It is suicide to allow them here.
Decent people of good character show generally respect when entering another persons home…they say please, and thank you, and they are at AT LEAST A LITTLE HESITANT to go rummaging through the refrigerator, even when the Hosts says “go ahead, make your self at home”
Thats the way it used to be.
I am First Generation American.
My parents were brought here as children, during the Great Depression, by my grandparents.
Legally.
My Grandparents LOVED this country, in a way I cant even describe.
They WASHED the sidewalk in front of their house.
They would have skinned their kids alive if they saw them graffiti anything.
They learned English. Demanded their kids speak it in the house.
They wore “sunday clothes”, kissed the flag if it touched the ground, and sent their sons (11 all together) off to fight their original “homelands” without reservation.
But now, we allow the rudest, most unthankful, unproductive people from utterly failed states with no clue about the rule of law or common decency, to come here without restriction, while we ACTIVELY RESTRICT other people from cultures similar to ours from ever getting in the door again.
England? No chance.
Scotland? Na, we dont “need” you.
Italy, Ireland, Australia, Germany, France, Spain?
It would take years to get in here legally from any of those places.
There are active, mathmatical limits our government imposes on the number of immigrants allowed to come from any “westernized” countries.
But now we are expected to simply absorb, and provide cradle to grave resources for, any OTHER person who simply walked in, illegally, buys a stolen Social Security Card, and demands “respect”.
That is National Suicide.
Well said, Savage. You are reading the tea leaves perfectly. White liberal guilt and political correctness (invented by leftists to further the destruction of traditional American values) will morph America into a third-world country. What Mark isn’t able to figure out is that the average of one and three isn’t one. America’s days as a “first-world” country are numbered.
THE PROBLEM ISN’T IMMIGRANTS!! It’s immigrants who do not try to assimilate into and fit into american culture and values. And that brings in all the leftist efforts -education, welfare, multi-culturalism which inhibits or prevents immigrants from becoming Americans vice remaining Mexicans, Somalians, Polish who happen to be living in the US.
That’s the difference between current immigration and earlier waves of immigrants. The Irish, the Italians came to America and wanted to adopt the culture, to become american vice remaining citizens of their former country they were expected to do so by their new countrymen.
Nope.
There’s no reason whatsoever that a foreigner who becomes a citizen can’t be as good an American as somebody who was born here. To the contrary, people who choose to become American citizens are probably better at it than native born citizens, because they have made a conscious decision to do so.
Something is clouding your vision.
proreason,
Whats clouding our vision, and polluting our nation, are our immigration laws.
On one hand, we restrict immigration from productive, non “failed-state” cultures and countries, who’s citizens are most like us.
Got any Irish or German friends that want to immigrate here and become citizens?
France, Spain? Folks with decent resume’s, work ethics, credit ratings?
They’ll have a long LONG wait to get in.
On the other hand, we allow absolute unfettered access to ANYONE who can physically get here, from COMPLETELY Failed States, with zero job skills, zero ability to contribute, and no desire to assimilate.
With these people, their very first in our country act is criminal (sneaking in). That is then followed by Identity Theft (fake papers), And so on and on.
Millions of them. TENS OF MILLIONS of them.
And we cant even SAY “gee, ya think this is a problem?”,
without the Liberal Sensitivity Police trying to prosecute us for hate speech.
Should have been “their very first ACT in our country is criminal”
I agree with you 100%, SAVAGE.
If people can’t see that our immigration laws (1965, specifically), the U.N., NAFTA, and on-the-horizon CAFTA are not meant to dilute our Founding culture and grease the road to Global government, then they aren’t paying attention.
When in Rome do as the Romans do; but when Rome is vandalized (pun intended) then it ceases to exist as Rome.
We need more “IMMIGRATION” [illegal or otherwise] like we need a hole in the head. AGREED. We can’t even employ a huge chunk of the populace who are already HERE.
But, the white European nations are quite ‘Socialist’ and failing miserable. So, I wouldn’t brag too much on being a white Euro in America as some sort of example of ‘America perfected’.
A lot of the ‘Socialist’ programs created here in America were modeled after WHITE European Socialist nations.
The house of cards known as SOCIALISM is collapsing in all of those nations… If that isn’t a canary in a coal-mine…I don’t know what is.
I refuse to buy the idea that America is finished. We aren’t finished by a long shot, but we are experiencing (temporary – “temporary” as in “generational”) difficulties at the moment. For the record, I support legal immigration (has everyone forgotten that all our ancestors came from somewhere else, and yes, even you, American Indians, although yours have been here the longest?), but I categorically condemn illegal immigration. Most people who come here want to be Americans, or they wouldn’t bother to come. A few come here just for the goodies, but they are the minority.
However, it takes a minimum of three generations for someone to become truly “American” in the classical sense of the word. The first generation begins to build an American family structure, but they find it difficult to accept and assimilate all the strange new customs and philosophies, and they try to cling to Old Country ideas. The second generation strives to be more American than the long-time Americans, embarrassed by their parents’ old-fashionedness. The third generation grows up hungry to know all about their heritage, and desperately wanting to “belong” while at the same time celebrating those things that make them different. That’s usually an adolescent phase that matures over time, when the third generation begins to realize that, whatever they may have thought about themselves, they are quintessentially Americans. They cannot ever be true Chinese, or Japanese, or Polish, or Italian, or African, or whatever, because their whole upbringing and outlook was formed in America by other Americans. That’s when the divisions begin to break down.
Things are somewhat different concerning the Mexican illegal invasion, largely because of their proximity, their numbers, and an unfortunate separatist political movement (looking at you, La Raza and Democrats), but the differences are minimal, and even they are not immune. And I suspect the numbers of Muslim Middle Easterners coming in won’t be immune either. It’s going to be a rough ride for the next century or so, but America is big, and lean, and mean. Nobody takes us down, nobody, because we swallow whole whatever the world sends us.
Is future America going to be Beaver Cleaver and the 1950s neighborhood? No, certainly not. But we will still be America, body and soul.
Oops, sorry about the spilled bolds. I was sure I closed the jar.
If we cannot get back to the vast majority of voters being morally good, then you are incorrect, there is no hope. It is just that simple. Any fiscal sanity you impose today will be voted away in the next election, and at some point in time, another Obama will come along at just the wrong time and finish what he started. That is assuming that what he started is not already enough to finish us off. He has set into motion many subversive activities that will be working in the background sapping our national character.
I disagree with you that we are still the American heart and soul. Heart maybe, but there is not much left of this old lady’s soul in America today.
Keep writing, astonerii, everything you say is gold.
“However, it takes a minimum of three generations for someone to become truly “American” in the classical sense of the word”
Sorry to repost a portion of my previous rant, but:
Baloney.
I am First Generation American.
My parents were brought here as children, during the Great Depression, by my grandparents.
Legally.
My Grandparents LOVED this country, in a way I cant even describe.
They WASHED the sidewalk in front of their house.
They would have skinned their kids alive if they saw them graffiti anything.
They learned English. Demanded their kids speak it in the house.
They wore “sunday clothes”, kissed the flag if it touched the ground, and sent their sons (11 all together) off to fight their original “homelands” without reservation.
America, and being American, is about character.
You either had it when you got here, or you’ll never have it at all…
These were our demands:
1)We WILL NOT raise the debt ceiling one red cent!
2)We DEMAND IMMEDIATE CUTS of $1.6 Trillion!
3)We DEMAND a BALANCED BUDGET IMMEDIATELY!
4)We DEMAND $25 Trillion in spending cuts over the next 10 years!
5)All Unconstitutional programs (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid etc.) will be ELIMINATED IMMEDIATELY!
The gangsters and criminals in the Demican/Republicrat Party (or if you prefer, the Republicrat/Demican Party) foolishly chose to ignore us. They kicked 14 Trillion cans down the road to hell…
It is time for Tea Partiers to launch a jihad against the corrupt political establishment, against the criminal gangs (i.e. the Demicans and Republicrats). The democratic process has failed…NOW is the time for the Tea Party to wage a jihad against the traitors.
The Tea Party is dying out. In a few years conservatives will be hopelessly outnumbered. It is time for the Tea Party to wage a jihad against all the enemies within, the traitors, the Quislings. If the Tea Party doesn’t start a jihad — the country is lost…forever.
“I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!” — Barry Goldwater – 1964
When we come to power we will IMMEDIATELY ELIMINATE all of the unconstitutional programs. We will UNDO the welfare state. We will DESTROY ALL entitlements.
FDR and LBJ’s ticking time bombs are exploding…the debt is spiraling out of control…national bankruptcy is inevitable. Helicopter Ben’s printing presses are running overtime, in the middle of the night… you will get your government checks…in worthless dollars. Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe — Here we come!
Look where comprising has gotten you. Bush, Rove, Dole, McCain, Boehner, McConnell etc. You have nothing left to compromise. The left has defeated you on every level.
Due to the Immigration Act of 1965 (Ted Kennedy) and the cultural revolution of the ’60s, America is gone forever.
There is a widening divergence between young and old in America: The old are very white (with some black), and the young are very Hispanic (with some Asian). The principal beneficiaries of the mid-20th century entitlement programs are old whites. The fellows expected to fund them are increasingly “minorities”. 80%+ of Social Security and Medicare recipients are white; 50%+ of births in America are to “minorities”. Just wait til you see what happens…
Geez, take a deep breath, you can’t cancel all the programs like you “demand”, chill. I say give us all a million dollars, tax free, every year for life, what, that’s 350 million? The rest will pay for the military and the minimum. With the million, ppl can start businesses, buy health care, retirement, education, houses and so on. Let the free market work for once. These guys have spent trillions and what do we get but a pain in the ass, enough with these people. If the libs weren’t so stupid they would of demanded this a long time ago, but no they want cell phones?? We won’t need the crappy programs to bribe ppl with, we just want to be left alone to pursue our happiness:) We are awake now, things are going to change.
The welfare state is going bankrupt. If the parasites insist, they will get their entitlements and government checks…in worthless dollars — courtesy of Helicopter Ben’s printing presses. Wiemar Germany and Zimbabwe — Here we come!
The system has failed. Democracy has failed. All Democracies ultimately collapse. What did the Founding Fathers say about Democracy? It is coming to pass. I see the handwriting on the wall…
It is too late. America will soon be a Third World Banana Republic. Just look at the Demographics. Bye Bye Miss American Pie. The Tea Party came too late. They were unable to save us. Conservatives will soon be hopelessly outnumbered. Adios America. It was nice knowing you.
BTW, $1 million X 310 million people = $310 Trillion. Haha… Good joke…
That would be 350 TRILLION bucks, Bozo. That kind of money doesn’t exist on the whole planet and if it did, a damned hot dog would cost you a thousand bucks.
ignore this marxist troll and he will eventually get tired of wasting his time
It’s not even the size and scope of government, really. There is a fundamental flaw in the constitution, namely that it allows politicians to buy votes with services and benefits paid for with borrowed money. If we were forced to pay for services within existing revenue, politicians would be much more prudent… And the size and scope of government wouldn’t be a concern, since oppressive taxes would get them tossed out of office. By deferring the inevitable pain, they can obfuscate what is happening and stay in office. We’re sunk because there is no motive for the political class to change these rules… though it will eventually catch up with even them.
There is not a flaw in the constitution honey, there is corruption in Washington.
I agree that the root of the problem is corruption.
My point is that the constitution as it stands today has no guard against buying votes with borrowed money. it originally was only land owners who could vote. We now allow people to vote who have no skin in the game.
I agree and disagree.
There is a flaw, but it is not the ability of congress to buy votes. That just does not exist in the constitution.
The flaw is a lack of accountability. For Senators, they are not accountable to whom the founders wanted them accountable to, the State as an entity. Now they are accountable to the people.
This led directly to the unaccountability of the Supreme Court of the United States of America, as Senators accountable to the States would never allow Justices to be appointed that were not going to really uphold the constitutional protections of the states.
Can we go back to where we were? Probably not. But we can progress to accountability through additional actions.
1) Have a vote in July of each year where the people can vote the entirety of the House of Representatives up or down. If voted down, no member of the House of Representatives are allowed to run for federal office, other than president, until the end of their term in office.
2) Have a vote in July of each year where the people can vote the entirety of the Senate up or down. If voted down, then all 100 seats will be up for election in November, and no member of the Senate are allowed to run for federal office, other than president, until the after the election.
3) States are allowed to send one representative to a meeting after the close of the Supreme Court session to vote on each Justice individually. If a justice is voted to have not upheld the constitution by a vote of 50%+1, then that Justice will be terminated and barred from further being a Federal Judge anywhere in the United States of America.
4) States are allowed to send one representative to a meeting after the close of the Supreme Court session to vote on each District Justice that presides over cases that affect those states individually. If a justice is voted to have not upheld the constitution by a vote of 50%+1, then that Justice will be terminated and barred from further being a Federal Judge anywhere in the United States of America.
This should bring the government into check with the people. But it will not bring the people to being moral enough to make a better country.
Change each year below to every Presidential Election Year.
1) Have a vote in July of each year where the people can vote the entirety of the House of Representatives up or down. If voted down, no member of the House of Representatives are allowed to run for federal office, other than president, until the end of their term in office.
2) Have a vote in July of each year where the people can vote the entirety of the Senate up or down. If voted down, then all 100 seats will be up for election in November, and no member of the Senate are allowed to run for federal office, other than president, until the after the election.
You are correct…
The flaw is not in the ability to borrow, it is in the character of the borrower.
Its the same as insurance fraud…take a good faith agreement, and exploit by design what you are “allowed”.
No different.
So lets get this right America is struggling to fund the $14 Trillion debt they already have. So the Politico’s have come up with the solution borrow “Another” $2,5 Trillion and allow the debt to rise ‘Another’ $7 Trillion over the next ten years. This they then sell to the naive, gullible American public and the Lame Stream EneMedia pundits and Talking Heads as a debt ‘Reduction????” because they are restricting the debt ‘Growth” down from $10 Trillion to $7 Trillion.
Now someone is being stupid here and it sure as hell ain’t me.
What’s also stupid is the belief that the problem can be cured with a full employment economy. Since only 50% of income earners pay taxes and since most new jobs will be below the tax paying threshold the fiscal problems facing the nation can’t be solved with job creation. The solution is to cut spending. When those who want to cut spending are described by people in high places as terrorists the situation can only get worse.
Excellent post, Terry!
Please call into c-span in the morning if you can get through (hit redial repeatedly, that’s how I get through almost always) and voice that because I haven’t heard that said before and it’s an excellent point that should be hammered home!
…only 50% of income earners pay taxes [snip]
Where do you get this nonsense from? You’re talking about FIT income tax and conveniently forgetting that people still buy electricity and gas, live in homes, buy taxable goods and so on and so on and so on. They also have to contribute to SSA if they have a job.
The notion that people earning under a certain threshold pay NO TAXES AT ALL is simply rubbish.
I imagine most people here agree that progressive taxes are unfair, but arguing against this unfairness via absurdly false claims won’t get very far.
Those are not taxes, those are insurance premiums. Ask the progressives.
As for the others, they are targeted taxes for usage, which is pretty much more a user fee than a tax.
So, yes, what the other poster said was in fact much more honest than what you did.
No, he is right. if more people work, then more money gets paid to SS/Medicare, which is a huge part of the budget problem. When more people work, they buy more goods, which means more money for owners who DO pay taxes. When the money circulates, the government receives more money as they get a piece of each transaction.
The government currently is collecting only 14.5% of GDP, while spending 24.5% of GDP. The spending is too high, and the collections are too low. For the collections to increase, we need the money to circulate. It is not. Loads of money is sitting on the sidelines… because the owners of that money do not trust the government. People are hoarding, as they should. Businessmen are waiting for a change in government.
If the economy is unleashed by the coming change in government, much of the problem will resolve itself in a year. GDP will increase, so the percentage of spending will be less. Money will circulate, so the collections will be more, and collections will be of a higher GDP.
After one year, we will have a better picture of the future and a better idea of what needs to be done. You cannot make plans based on this economy, because it is false data. The economy is unnatural, being checked by fear as it is. All will seem very different by 2014… unless the Dems and Obama, “the wet blanket”, are still in power.
In 2014, collections will rise to the traditional 17% of a higher GDP. This means 100′s of billions more to the FedGov. It means far more to the States, too. The spending percentage, even if the new government does very little in 2013, will drop to about 20%. That is still too high, but by then, we will be able to make a realistic assessment of what more needs to be done.
The problem is, then it will not seem like such a crisis, and folks will not be willing to make the sacrifices, the tough decisions. The trick will be to have the will to do it, but also the ability to keep the Dems from being able to exploit it as a way back to power. It will be very delicate, but it can be done. It will be very important to continue to support those who will be making the necessary changes. We mustn’t become complacent too soon.
I think you replied to the wrong thread here. I was talking about something else.
I pretty much agree with you on all of what you say.
43% pay no Federal Income Tax
Fourty. Three. Percent.
The other half of the country pays 100% of the Federal Income Tax received by the Treasury.
They cover the Lions Share of the governments operating budget, by sending anywhere from 28-46% of their gross income straight off the top to Obama and Gietner.
THEN with whats left over, they ALSO have to pay the same miscellaneous taxes and fees for food, fuel, sales tax, etc. etc. that you say so heavily burdens Non F.I.T. payers.
PLUS, they also have to pay PROPERTY TAX for the teachers on top of that, too.
Because basically, if you dont even pay F.I.T. I can pretty well figure you most likely dont own property, and therefore arent contributing to the local school system, like I am with my Federal witholding, State witholding, AND local Property Taxes all flowing to the Teaches Union, to buy votes for
(wait for it!)
higher taxes.
There are indeed two Americas…
Half on the dole, driving us to bankruptcy, screaming everyday for more.
And the other half, paying for it all, wondering how to remain solvent (when no one seems to know what “solvent” means anymore)
But hey don’t worry 52% of the population pay NO TAX AT ALL they just get ENTITLEMENTS. Whats that you say thats the same proportion of people who voted for Obambi well I never.
“Quantitative easing” amounts to a tax on everyone. the value of your assets its diminished, and the amount of that diminishment is taken by government. the 50% who pay no income tax will only get poorer as their buying power erodes, and they are too gullible and brainwashed to realize what is happening.
To respectfully add my two cents. Quantiative easing only destroys SOME ASSETS, you want to avoid debt obligations, such as bonds and mortgages because the inflation that will result from the excessive printing of US dollars will destroy the value of all dollar denominated obligations. HOWEVER, you want to own real assets in an inflationary enviroment. Assets such as gold, silver, real estate, and all forms of commodities will “increase” (sic) in value as the value of the dollar goes down.
It should be noted that there will be positive things that occur as the US dollar declines in value, and the resulting lower costs of inputs in the US economy has the “potential” to make our exports more competitive on world markets. Unfortunately, with the current leadership not really interested in saving the US Economy this potential postive will likely never be allowed to arise and enviromental,legal and other forms of over regulation will be allowed to destroy the positive effects of a more cost competitive currency.
The Fiat currency scam has definitely run its course. The government doesn’t create ‘wealth’, it only creates more and more ‘debt’ the bigger it gets.
The solution rests on how many we can replace every single election. We put in 15% in ’10 and if we can get 30% more patriots to serve we can force the scum who are left to follow our Constitution.
Find nominees (and vet them!) and be in the voting booths in ’12.
I culdn’t agree more. There are millions of people waking up to the mess we are in every day and there is no reason that we have to be so negative. We are the greatest country in the world and it is worth saving. Your plan is the best way to achieve a turnaround.
If you are counting on the newly minted fiscal only conservatives that the Bailouts and then the stimulus created, you are going to be very disappointed. They are only here to save their paychecks, and once completed, they will revert back to voting for the immoral society politicians they love so that society will be immoral enough in the following elections to destroy America in a single term in office for the next Marxist democrat.
We are destroying your currency and economy. We are setting the stages for a New World Order and One World Government. The nation-state no longer exists. Patriotism and nationalism is dead. There will some pain for some people. Adjustments will have to be made. It will require a whole new mindset. Don’t think of yourself as an American citizen. Think of yourself as a global citizen, a citizen of the world. We are entering a new era in the history of mankind. Those who refuse to join us will cause themselves unnecessary pain and suffering. A New World Order and One World Government is inevitable, just a matter of time. Those who resist will end up in the dustbin of history. I hope none of you are foolish enough to attempt to resist. Resistance is futile.
Since there’s no (/s) sarcasm tag at the end of your screed, I’ll have to regretfully assume
you’re serious about desiring and demanding totalitarianism for the United States.
You are sick. Seek help.
“Those who refuse to join us will cause themselves unnecessary pain and suffering.”
In the past, this sort of “Do as I say or else” statement has invariably been a thinly veiled threat; “We will hurt you if you do not obey”.
As Mr. Wallis said, seek help. Now.
clear ether
eon
LMAO. Can’t wait to meet your azz in a dark alley.
I bet this twit doesn’t own a firearm.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Hey, GLOBALIST,
Look to the EUROPEANS and the ‘EURO’…
Didn’t work out so well.
You want to spread the ‘hard work’ of ‘other’ people? Fine. You go first. Sell everything off to those ‘poor’ nations and then kill yourself and leave whatever you have left to ‘the great global gai’.
Thanks.
People tend to forget that there is a massive fight about to take place in the Supreme Court over Obamacare. It will probably take place this fall, but it’s certainly one of the biggest cases the Court will ever hear. At stake is what the Federal Government can or cannot tell a citizen what to buy.
In this case, it is health insurance. If this law holds, it will not only mean the end of Federalism as we know it, but it will also be one of the largest tax increases in history. Obamacare is NOT going to be free and it’s going to take a lot of money to fund. It will bankrupt this country and kill whatever chance at a “recovery” we currently have. It will also mean that the Federal government will have total control over your lives. It will be able to tell you what to eat and how to live, what drugs you can and cannot have, what treatment you can and cannot have, and when you’re a “hopeless case” and should be allowed to die. This is a very big deal and most people seem to have forgotten about it. The Court really must strike Obamacare down, or else this country really will not be the same, and you will have Reid, Pelosi, and Obama to “thank” for it. God help us.
And yet there are provisions within the health care law that make sense and are needed. As things are now, if your spouse is diagnosed with cancer then you are stuck with the job and health insurance you have now for life because the spouse can’t and won’t be insured at your new job.
Meanwhile if you look at US expenditure (where does your tax dollar go) the largest expense by far is dealing with the elderly as in SS payments and health care. Retirees are who soak up the money. It’s not the immigrants. It’s not the fatties. It’s not the working age citizens who get an unlucky diagnosis. It’s the retirees.
The health care law is far from perfect, but your hopeful notions regarding the lack of constitutionality are pipe dreams in an era where the social security safety net is an established fact.
Things do need to change, and the first of these ought to be the retirement age. At one time the retirement age was 65 but the life expectancy of the average retiree was 67. Today retirement age is 67 and life expectancy is approaching 80. Financial difficulties re SS track with life expectancy, not politics.
No, health insurance should not be via your job. The government created that, and they are trying to tweak this fundamentally flawed thing they created.
Make health insurance premiums and co-pays tax deductible, and the problem goes away. Nothing in ObamaCare is any good. Nothing. It is just a power grab.
So long as insurance companies and government ‘insure’ health care, the arbitrary and inflated cost will continue to be above the reach of any citizen. Dispose of insurance and employer based health care along with government health care insurance and see what happens to health care costs overnight. Now government subsidized health care for the indigent can be successful…paying the ‘market rate’ for goods and services.
Insured and employer based health care is unsustainable!
I agree, T.T.Thomas. The employer-sponsored health insurance racket started up in response to WWII wage freezes, when in order to attract well-qualified employees, employers offered “benefits” when they couldn’t offer higher wages.
We now see the unintended consequences of what appeared a great idea: we’ve separated the purchaser of services from the provider of services, and the purchaser no longer cares to shop around — or even to know — the cost of the service; moreover, we’ve added an enormous administrative cost layer.
“So long as insurance companies and government ‘insure’ health care, the arbitrary and inflated cost will continue to be above the reach of any citizen.”
You are aware there is a federal mandate that no person be turned away from an emergency room and that they be treated until they are stable? You are aware that most healthcare is consumed at the end of life and without regard to a person’s ability to pay? The money for this comes from taxes or borrowed fed money and from people who have insurance being charged ridiculous amounts to help cover those who don’t pay? Yet you think the problem is with insurance comapnies and not what the law requires?
“Dispose of insurance and employer based health care along with government health care insurance and see what happens to health care costs overnight.”
Nothing will happen to the charges except they’ll go up. It is primarily the mandate to provide care without the ability to pay which drives up the cost for those who can pay.
“Now government subsidized health care for the indigent can be successful…paying the ‘market rate’ for goods and services.”
If you’re talking about vouchers and losing the mandates and accepting the inevitabilty that people who can’t pay will frequently not get the healthcare and so will die far sooner–then you’re accepting reality.
“Insured and employer based health care is unsustainable!”
Insurance is perfectly sustainable, both as insurance against the unexpected and as a payment plan. What is not sustainable is the mandate that care be paid for primarily by overcharging those who have insurance to cover the people who cannot themselves pay, and the notion that the governemnt should cover the remainder.
TomPerkins
You are incorrect. So long as the government subsidizes health care, and subsidizes insurance, the costs of medical care will continue to rise faster than the rate of inflation. But it is not the insurance companies fault. Look at every other insurance that is not subsidized, and you will see the rates are pretty reasonable. Now look at every aspect of life the government subsidizes, are the prices for those things reasonable? Schools, colleges, healthcare? Get rid of the subsidization, and the prices for both health care and for the insurance will start to go back down where it should be.
Debt ceiling? Really? Since when have they not become historical floors within months. The issue really is who has the right to our productive hours. When we labor for others as wage slave we get W-2′s. Other workers and investors get their IRS Form 1099-MISC. Until we make government give out IRS Form 1099-GOV for all the ‘income, redistributed’ for which they write checks to individuals we will never win this battle. The non-working, non-legal, un-interested will skim our hide. 1099-GOV 1099-GOV 1099-GOV California has rules about identifying yourself to apply for a job but fights that same process in applying to vote or get welfare. It is a sign.
“Consider the issue of slavery. We managed not to talk about it for 80 years, preferring instead to nibble around at the edges of it by arguing over where it should be allowed or banned. Only the abolitionists were willing to confront the issue and they were considered “extremists” by the Democrats of the day.”
Which 80 years is he talking about?
Has Mr. Moran never heard of the “Missouri Compromise”? The “Nullification Crisis” (state’s rights) during Jackson’s Presidency? How about “The Report of the Select Committee of the H.R. Feb. 12th, 1790? Has he ever read any letters on the subject by James Madison or Thomas Jefferson in the 1820’s? Has he ever heard of any of this stuff?
Slavery, as an institution, was draining southward out of the northern States as Massachusetts (1780), Vermont (1777), Connecticut (1792), Pennsylvania (1780) New Jersey (New York (1827), New Jersey (1804), Rhode Island (1784) began a process of gradual emancipation.
Because slavery was transmitted through the mother, all of these States devised plans to emancipate the children and compensate their owners through service until they reached a gender specific age which varied (21-28) or by self manumission whereby a slave could buy his freedom and essentially become an indentured servant. Which is how many of our forefathers & mothers got here. Learn the history of Venture Smith – he is my hero.
The progress of emancipation in the northern and middle States was slowed because of the “bad” behavior of the new freed but unassimilated blacks themselves. This forced actions by the Massachusetts legislature (1821) & the Connecticut Legislature (1834) to restrict the immigration of new freed Negroes.
Mr Moran displays a stunning ignorance of the Ante-Bellum Era by trying to claim Abraham Lincoln & the abolitionists as constitutional conservatives. This is “The Great Progressive Trap” that “conservatives” fall into.
Even, Mark R. Levin has yet to explain how he gets philosophically from strict Constitutional construction (St. George Tucker) to Stephen Douglas’ position of “Popular Sovereignty” (a concept Lincoln was forced to accept during their debates) to Lincoln’s distinctly anti-constitutional actions after Sumter with out going through the decidedly un-Constitutional proposition of “Te ends justify the means.”
If, Mr. Moran had actually studied the Declaration, he might have understood the Framer’s dilemma & conundrum over slavery involved two equal but competing concepts. i.e. – individual freedom and private property rights.
Didn’t you ever wonder why such huge liberals such as D.K. Goodwin, Sean Wilentz, Gary Wills, Gore Vidal, etc., etc. are so enamored of Lincoln?
It was Abraham Lincoln who destroyed the semi-unique feature of the Republic which is FEDERALISM – (got it from the Swiss) by forced centralization, which is the polar opposite.
(Federalist #10 & 51)
Here are Lincoln’s sentences the acceptance of which changed us from a Union to “Statist” nation and legally began the Civil War, for the North on July 13th, 1861.
“The States have their status in the Union, and they have no other legal status. If they break from us, they can only do so against law and by revolution. The Union, and not themselves separately, procured their independence and their liberty. By conquest or purchase the Union gave each of them whatever of independence and liberty it has. The Union is older than any of the States, and, in fact, it created them as States. Originally some dependent colonies made the Union, and in turn the Union threw off their old dependence for them and made them States, such as they are. Not one of them ever had a State constitution independent of the Union.”
I am quite sure that all of the above would be news to William Penn for example. These are the lies which destroyed a great Republic.
Exactly. Mr. Moran has to be ignorant of American history to have written that. Indeed, Jefferson’s original Declaration of Independence placed the blame of slavery on George III, but it got taken out in committee. The Founding Fathers knew slavery was wrong, but it was vital to the South’s economic system at the time, and the South was needed. They hoped that slavery would wither away. The Constitution had a deadline of 1808.
“We managed not to talk about it . . . by arguing over where it should be allowed or banned.”
That’s just a contradictory statement. We didn’t talk about it by arguing about it?
Otsig & rgb
Lovely arguments gentlemen,
I’ve never quite been able to nail down my own absolute position…too many aggreable principals on both sides to chose camp. I loathe to be a “sunshine hybridizer” of principals, but sometimes the path isnt crystal clear between whats “right” and whats “law”. I enjoy getting input from others like you two.
“Lincoln’s distinctly anti-constitutional actions after Sumter with out going through the decidedly un-Constitutional proposition of “Te ends justify the means.”
I’ve always cringed at the Emperor like wave of Federal hand under Lincoln, but I also rather consider Firing on Sumpter to be somewhat unjustified….To paraphrase “Throwing away institutions long held or light and transient reasons”, such as the election of a prsident you dont like, strikes me as an unduly rash act, creating a storm of social chaos than no simple adherence to “law” can mediate or mend….
Open warfare among neighbors tends to do that.
So, while I personally I detest Obama, I could not in good concious support, for instance, Arizona in secession from the union over him and his policies, no matter how “unconstitutional” they seem to be.
There will be other elections.
And we did declare ourselves, in the beginning, a nation called the “United States” rather than
The “States, United”…my personal loyalty tends more to those documented principals of Nation, than State.
I’m originally from New Jersey, for Gods sake.
Not much love there!
An acid test I sometimes use to test my loyalties is:
If my state attempts to bans handguns, I will justly dissent with the cry:
“Pound sand! 2nd Amendment, Federal, Bill of Rights, law of the land”
If the Federal Government attempts the same ban, I will cry:
The same thing.
Sounds like I’m a Federalist, but the Fed needs to tow a certain line to satisfy me as well.
Thanks for stimulating more thought on the matter
I’m saddened, embarrassed for you all really, that no one bothered to discount or distance from Savage’s original comment. As a terribly conservative (a lot of us are) Latino who agrees that the country has a disgraceful spending problem, needs boundaries (some sort of TABOR to drag spending without adding taxes), has an entitlement mentality that is leading us to ruin…but whose fault is it again?
We couldn’t vote regularly in this country (especially in my native Texas…and it is mine at least as much a yours; we’ve been here for 400 years and fought for our freedom from Mexico alongside some great folks from Tennessee and Germany) during the New Deal, were intimidated at the polls during the Great Society. You can blame Dem administrations and compliant Republicans in Congress, but don’t blame young Latinos. Hell, half of us aren’t even over the age of 18!
That said, the whole point of my frustration is getting past race. It’s not a brown issue, black issue or white issue. It’s a green issue. I’m assuming the vast majority of us reading PJM hold relatively conservative social values and (obviously) very strong fiscal ones.
Can we work on solving those problems without the focus on who is what color? That’s a long-term losing battle for our team from a demographic perspective, unless all of you are going to step it up and have kids at an crazy rate for the next 50 years. Let’s all work together on solving the problem. The demo’s are what they are. The attitude and complacency of Washington doesn’t have to be.
David, thanks for speaking up. My first ancestor to arrive in Texas was a Cherokee orphan whose family had been murdered by Jackson’s army in the southeast, simply because they would not embark on the deadly walk to Oklahoma, since European immigrants wanted their rich lands. That orphan was a devout Christian woman who passed down her gentle love of humanity and her forgiving nature. Studying my family history was gut-wrenching, because government schools had completely omitted such atrocious genocide. It took me a long time of prayer and commonsense to overcome my negative feelings, but eventually I realized the past is gone, and no American today had any role in it. People outside Texas have a hard time understanding the mindset, but the clues are in its early history, as people of all colors/stripes/nationalities banded together for the cause of freedom from the despotic Mexican dictator. Why cannot we all just be Americans? Traditional values made civilization prosper, and America has been the beacon for generations seeking individual freedom.
The power-hungry will always use whatever excuse/scheme to rule over others; that is the history of the world. We’ve been ‘divided’ into ethnic groups for decades by the political class, including the old MSM; it’s time we start reaching out to each other and standing up for traditional moral principles, because as Hayek explained in “The Fatal Conceit”, those principles are the foundation of civilization.
I agree, David. White people have voted PLENTY for the Socialism and other destructive policies that have put our country where it is and we are ALL in this together as Americans of all ethnicities. There are plenty of white people who are more than happy to suck of the ‘we the people’ government teat for life.
Or to set themselves up as a privileged “nomenklatura” that does well for itself by dispensing “social” “justice”…
(“…And those who push us down that they might climb…”)
“Race” is beside the point. So is superficial culture (music, food,…) Deep culture (work ethic, moral values,…) are what matters. And if I share those with a person I frankly don’t give a rat’s behind about their ethnicity.
No, most of the authors at PJ Media are libertarians. They have no care about any social issues. More people on this site are also against any social morals. Most have no idea why social morals exist, let alone what value to put on any of them.
You present a poignant portrait, David, but you miss the point of SAVAGE’s rankling comments.
MASS IMMIGRATION from third world countries is a MECHANISM by which our “illustrious” leaders intend to subvert what remains of our Constitutional Republic. Read that word again, “subvert.”
Whatever it is about America that you love is being ground into the sand by a “ruling class” that intends to OVERTHROW our country by making it into a one-party state. And they are using simple, ordinary, decent Americans like you to do it — by convincing you that compassion trumps rational insight regarding national sovereignty. This has nothing to do with race but everything to do with CULTURE, with numbers of people pouring into our country WITHOUT SPONSORS, not even a job, but with every intention of STEALING what has been earned by hard-working American taxpayers. It has everything to do with swelling the voting block of the Democrat Party (the Communist party by another name), with millions of entitlement-minded voters.
If you love your country you would fight against this as if your life depended on it. Just remember the horrific results of one-party rule during the 20th Century: 100 million people murdered by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others. Don’t think it can’t happen here.
The fundamental that needs to be confronted is a moral one. Does anyone have the right to vote money out of another’s pocket? Is the government above morality? Can they steal shamelessly from the citizens? Is this the morally right way to support our government and to provide services?
If taxes were completely voluntary, would anyone pay them out of a ‘moral’ obligation? Would people feel a moral imperative to pay what they could afford to keep the government running at a bare minimum? I’ve often wondered about that…
It would certainly be an interesting experiment.
I would gladly pay 5% of my income to the federal government if it were within its constitutional boundaries. It would be a moral obligation to pay for the defense of my family from outside forces, the upkeep of the government so it can continue to fairly adjudicate contracts and so forth. It would not have to be mandatory, and I would not cut off the top of my income when determining 5%.
In order to make it proper, I suggest that the government send to each person who pays voluntary taxes some form that indicates their generosity. Something that could be shown where others can feel shame for not paying any, and other can feel pride in paying more. Based solely on %, not actual dollars.
astonerii,
I highly suspect that the ‘usual suspects’ would pay NOTHING [i.e. the vaunted 'liberals' who are tax-cheats way high up the tax-bracket and also high up the 'zero' administration]. The greedy libs would probably not offer a ‘cent’ but, I bet the working middle class would definitely pitch in out of duty and honor and yes morality.
It certainly would be an interesting experiment to show who really pays ALL of the bills.
Not sure if I was clear. I would only pay this 5% if the government was within the plain meaning at time of ratification of the constitution and each of the individual amendments. In other words, not one red cent for an illegitimate government, which is what I know we have today.
As for the usual suspects, this is why I requested the proof of payment concept, so that a business that has proprietors which do not support the government, I can go somewhere else. Neighbors who do not contribute, I will know not to loan any tools or otherwise make their life easier, and in plain English tell them so when they ask for assistance.
Our government does not have the legitimacy of the consent of the governed anymore. When a full 14% believe congress represents the people, how can it have legitimacy? When more parts of the law are written that fall outside of the constitutional limits placed on government than fall within, how can it be a legitimate government? When no person could possibly tell you that they are 100% certain that they did not break any federal laws that day, how can the government be legitimate? I would pay to live under a legitimate government, and I might be willing to pay a little extra above that 5% that currently funds all the legitimate aspects of our government to make up for the deadbeats. Look at the books, and you will see, that if the government was within its constitutional boundaries, it would cost 5% of GDP to run.
I think I’ve said it before but i’ll say it again; corruption at so many levels has been exposed and is indeed been scrutinized now and even the I have come to learn that things need changing, in that both political parties are corrupt.
It’s not the Constitution or the immigrants; it’s the tyranny visited upon us by corruption. We should all be very happy that it’s being exposed for hwat it is.
Wow, great article! I agree 110 per cent.
When you see the most incompetent, ignorant people attaining status and riches based solely on whichever religious, sexual, or ethnic group they wish to endorse and campaign for, why would anyone select “other” and give up any chance of getting riches and status guaranteed by legislation and policy?
Constitution? We don’t need no stinkin’ Constitution. Look at all the work Congress had to do to make it work better.
Rick Molean has finally found an acorn. The issue is indeed the size and function of government, not the debt ceiling of the other dozen or so distractions the marxists will be generating in the next 15 months.
Rick Perry is right. There is not chance for the federal government to be responsive when each congress person either represents 600,000 people or worse, 20,000,000 people (in the case of California). Add to that problem the trillions of dollars that government spends, which simply lures in the master criminals who would otherwise be running global drug cartels (at must greater risk and with less reward), and you have understood the formula that has put our country on the brink of implosion.
If it continues, we are sunk. Period.
There is no chance that the House is going to be expanded to 4,350 members, and even if it was, that would be unworkable.
The only answer is to MASSIVELY restrict what the federal government does. Almost every discretionary program is in violation of the Constitution anyway. And those that may be constitutional are almost always perverse, limiting liberty and commerce rather than increasing liberty and enabling commerce.
It won’t happen instantly, but unless the Departments of Health, Education, Commerce, Energy, Transportation and many other are eliminated or reduced in size by 90%, the madness will continue until the implosion occurs.
Since the constitution grants to congress the welfare clause and the people vote their congressional representation, one cannot honetly conclude that by a majority of the people of the many districts, the people are not in the drivers seat of what and how welfare shall be defined and applied.
I disagree.
This scam has been hidden from the American people by criminals masquerading as politicians whose sole skills are acting and lying. Even they don’t understand the magnitude of this out-of-control government, so one could hardly expect the people to understand it when a group of profesional liars is deliberately burying the information.
It has only been in the past couple of years that even a small fraction of the country has become aware of the magnitude of the malfeasance.
See my post on another stream. Obama has increased DISCRETIONARY spending alone by half a trillion in 3 years, while tax receipts have plumetted nearly as much. Have you seen that written anywhere. ANYWHERE?
The coverup is more massive than the crimes.
["This scam has been hidden from the American people..... It has only been in the past couple of years that even a small fraction of the country has become aware of the magnitude of the malfeasance."]
Nothing is ‘hidden’ from the people! Not every minute of the process may be public but when a bill comes to the floor and before enacted, it’s all public. Legislator actually don and always have sought or otherwise recieved input from the people of at least their districts from which they elected to represent. If the people don’t participate thats on them….not the government!
Now, regasrding your latter comment. Malfeasance = The commission of an act that is unequivocally illegal or completely wrongful.
‘Illegal’ is not so subjective! ‘Completely wrongful’ is quite subjective and requires damage to a person or persons.
IF you really meant to use the term ‘malfeasance’ then I would suggest you have the legal recourse to file suit against such official or officials in the appropriate court of jurisdiction. There, you can address your tort case.
You mean this welfare clause?
“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.”
Welfare of the United States. Not welfare of the people.
Welfare Meaning near time of constitution written:
Exemption from any unusual evil or calamity; the enjoyment of peace and prosperity, or the ordinary blessings of society and civil government.
This was affirmed by James Madison when he wrote: “With respect to the words “general welfare,” I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
Education is good for you.
["Welfare of the United States....."]
Last time I checked the Unitied States is that, because it is a nation of people! Last time I checked, the governmernt is of the people…by the people and for the people!
Astonerii
Wonderful clarification, and added controversy to battle over…
oh, the perils of freedom!
The preamble of course states “Provide” for the common defense, and “Promote” the general welfare.
Often seized upon by conservatives (mea culpa!) to distinguish between that which is a required function, involving specific action and control by the Fed, and a mere, soft “suggestive nudge” of ideas about how things might be better for the little folks..
But of course, we see further language saying “provide” for both later on.
Bravo for reminding me.
The conversation goes on, and dealing with certain Constitutional Phrases that are not your “talking point” favorites to support your particular interpretation, is always a good thing.
Ok, so the argument is that we are not talking about the real issue. Why is there a big government? Government serves the needs of the people it works for. I agree that many of the big programs in this country were foisted upon the people by politicians, many of whom knew full well how destructive they would be. But explain why the destruction is not enough to cause the people demand they be either reformed to take away the destructive properties of them.
Yes government is big, it is a huge a nanny state, taking care of its kids, people who refuse to grow up and take responsibility for their own lives. Yet, on these pages of Pajamas Media you will never find a single person who writes here actually bore down to the real reason we are where we are today. We have an immoral society, and an immoral society cannot help itself but to create a nanny state to make up for all the personal failures that are assured due to that immorality.
People who go through life not getting married for life to someone of the opposite sex, having children and ensuring those children are raised properly to be successful and eventually being able to care for their parents and maybe even grandparents in their old age. Instead we have to, must, it is without question take three other peoples children’s hard work to support each old person for upwards of twenty years of end of life vacation. Why? Because an immoral people cannot be expected to put the hard work into making a marriage successful, the hard work of raising children responsibly into productive adults, the hard work to deny oneself today to save for tomorrow’s needs.
An immoral people cannot be expected to have women keep their legs closed until they are married, if they ever get married. We cannot expect those immoral single moms to care for their children on their own, so we have to provide welfare for life to these women and their children. Celebration of the slut and deadbeat father culture through rewards.
An immoral people cannot be expected to reign in government spending which is taking money from the moral producers and giving to the immoral mooches. So long as enough people are as this site Libertarians who think all cultures are interchangeably good and liberals who think the same, we will never get control of government spending, and its size will necessarily skyrocket.
“explain why the destruction is not enough to cause the people demand they be either reformed to take away the destructive properties of them.”
Because a thief’s vote counts the same as your own, and because since our grandparents blinked 98 years ago, our own money is used to buy them.
But you’re right that the underlying cause is immorality. The founders tried to set up a system to keep the immoral at bay. They did a pretty good job of it too, but once the 16th amendment was passed, the con artist and uber-criminals had the tool they needed to overcome any amount of morality.
government now subsidizes immorality while simultaneously punishing morality. What tools did our society have back then that it does not have today that allowed the citizens to self police their communities such that the vast majority of those in it were moral, or at the least far too scared to come out in the open if immoral?
We need to get back to a time when society could police its own with enough authority to force the immoral back into the shadows where they do not corrupt ever growing numbers of those in society.
“What tools did our society have back then that it does not have today that allowed the citizens to self police their communities”
You know the answer.
It was religion.
Unfortunately, religion has never been very good at politicing the politicians. More frequently, religion has been an ally of politicians. And in today’s world, the politicians have pretty much disabled religion as a political force, and been nearly as successful at disabling it as a moral force.
That’s part of the existential conflict we are in the midst of.
government now subsidizes immorality while simultaneously punishing morality.
Oh?
Define.
Lets see.
Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid.
Subsidizes those who life the lifestyle of death, no kids, and no savings for the future. (People who have kids, are supported by their kids taxes in retirement)
Welfare
Subsidizes the sluts of our society that cannot keep their legs closed and the deadbeat fathers who never marry their mothers or pay for their children’s rearing, let alone be involved to ensure they grow up to be good productive adults.
Government jobs.
Subsidizes the lazy and the the greedy, who do not want to work an honest day, or an honest period of time before being granted 40 years or more of end of life leisure.
AFDC (welfare) is a program where most recipients collect for a short time and acts as a safety net for women/children facing unlikely events and find themselves in a bad financial situation (e.g. woman with 3 small children whose husband runs off with the dispatcher.)
Immoral as hell, ain’t it?
You are clearly a nutjob. Do not respond to my posts again; I don’t converse with idiots.
“You are clearly a nutjob. Do not respond to my posts again; I don’t converse with idiots.”
Hah hah, obviously you do.
Now onto your argument about AFDC.
It is immoral. It takes money from me, and others who produce wealth in this nation using the power of the government, who uses the power of the gun to enforce the money grabbing. It enslaves us to provide for them. While, it is moral to help those in need for short periods when they run into trouble, particularly the unforeseen trouble, that help has been successfully administered through the church and other charitable organizations for centuries, and has the added bonus that those who help the person become intimate with them, and can work to ensure that it is in fact a temporary situation.
What really happens is the following. A woman goes onto AFDC, WIC, title 9 (one of the more important aspects here) and other short term assistance programs, and they meet the professional welfare queens. Before the end of their temporary assistance is up, they have had many contacts with their title 9 health care providers. In those contacts, they talk about things that the professional welfare queens told them would get them on the dole for life. Next thing you know, when those temporary assistance programs are done, they and their children are receiving several thousand dollars a month for the rest of their natural lives, on SSDI, Food Stamps, Rent Assistance (actually pays the whole rent) and several other for life benefits. This is much different than what would have happened if it was a church or limited income charitable organization that helped her.
So, in the future, if you do not want to converse with me, try to actually be an intelligent debater with some sort of fact, something beyond the, “this makes me feel good” argument.
astonerii @ 18
“Why is there big government? Government serves the needs of the people it works for.”
Seems more like nowadays government serves the needs of the people who work for it.
53 million Americans are retired, collecting end of life vacation funds, many are collecting those funds from other people’s children, as they refused to have their own. Many rely solely on the money stolen from other people’s children. 53 million on the dole from a single program out of a country that had record voting numbers of 128.5 million in 2008. You do not see the government working for them? How about the millions on food stamps, and other largess of government. Do you think the government is not working for them?
So ask yourself this question. If those millions of Americans were morally good, what would government be doing differently today? Ask anyone what they want cut, and you will find a few tiny items that effect no one are the only majority cuts possible. Foreign Aid for example.
In the 1910-1940′s government was not working for the people. It was laying the ground rules for socialisms rise. The people were not morally strong enough to resist the pull of candy for me paid for by thee.
Who do the government agencies, good and bad, work for? Themselves.
Who does Obama work for? HIs appointed czars who kiss his skinny ass.
What is Michelle’s job? To employ handmaidens, to wipe her big fat ass.
And what is the mission of Obama’s death panels? To kill off the elderly.
“Who do the government agencies, good and bad, work for? Themselves.”
Yes and no. If you wanted to embezzle a million dollars, would you find a small and tightly run outfit to work for, or would you target a massive and complex entity to get your money from. In effect, the moochers are embezzlers. The who myriad of good and bad agencies is intended to make it impossible to keep track of it all and hold any one part of it accountable. The voters are many times the embezzlers, in bed with the politicians. Why do you think Medicare can lose fully 20% of its money to cheats every year? Why do you think the welfare state never ended with Bill Clinton’s end of the welfare state? Government workers are voters as well. This country is a sinking ship, and the end of lifers and near end of lifers are working to strip every item of value from her before she goes down.
“Who does Obama work for? HIs appointed czars who kiss his skinny ass.”
Americans voted him. He works for us, but no one in power is willing to hold him to account, and the voters are refusing to as well. Maybe it is his race, maybe it is the fear that he really is not eligible for his position, and no one wants to unmake the mess he created that would enlarge 50 times over if he was found out to be ineligible to be President. But he still works for us, we are just too weak and timid to bring him into line or fire him. That is our choice, as a group, and I am obviously in the minority.
“What is Michelle’s job? To employ handmaidens, to wipe her big fat ass.”
Michelle is not a government employee. So attacking her as one elevates her position greatly. I would recommend avoiding that kind of attack before first lady becomes an actual power position beyond what the spouse is willing to toss that way.
“And what is the mission of Obama’s death panels? To kill off the elderly.”
Yes and no. yes, they need to have less care, that way they can remain bought off, as if they did not get less care, we would be bankrupt before he and his string pullers have strengthened their hands on the power they aim for. So, not to kill them off, but certainly to cut back on their cost. The vast majority of money spent on healthcare is for the last couple months of a person’s life, he is willing to lose those last couple months of their ability to vote in order to keep the bribery money flowing to them, those he works for.
Just because someone works for you, does not mean that they have your best interest in mind. It also does not mean they will do things the way you like them done. Who else are they going to hire, the Republicans who might actually cut significantly into their bribe monies?
We could of course go back to the founding fathers and find out what they thought this country might become. Of course most of them envisioned a shining city on a hill, where people lived in peace and harmony. Where they were free to choose good or good because no one would want to choose bad.
Of course today that can never be. As long as there is real choice there will always be crime, corruption, disloyalty and unhappiness. Some people for whatever reason just have to choose the wrong, that is their right. We the people however do not have to pay for their mistakes and that I think is the crux of the debate.
Government spends money it doesn’t have to “protect” us from ourselves. Where in the past those who chose poorly would have left the breeding grounds and their influence and genes would not have continued on to infect the rest of the pool. We now encourage people who perform no useful purpose except to breed new drones, become politicians or porn producers. We see them on reality shows and our children look at them and say “Hey I’m not near as bad as that guy”. What a great influence for them.
Socialism/ Communism and any other ism you’d like to name are made up of human beings. Today the only difference between most people and animals is that people have opposable thumbs and walk on their hind legs. Don’t believe me, just look at the news video from the half year, the riots in C A, the debt ceiling debacle, Greece imploding, the UK exploding and Denmark disintegrating. Animals, all animals.
The ONLY way to stop the escalating decline is individually. Stop holding others to standard that you yourself do not adhere to. Then adhere to some kind of standard yourself and once there insist that the people you associate with have some standard as well. The companies you buy from the people you elect must have some kind of moral compass. Then and only then will we be able to get our lives back, until then evil will continue to win.
Man! What are you smokin’?
The Founding Fathers didn’t believe in fairy tales, or they would have incorporated more “yellow brick road” in the Bill of Rights and Constitution.
Unfortunately, D.C. thinks it is “Wonderland”, and all they have to do is wave their magic wand and things happen, just like in their drunken stupor.
And since the Constitution is so flawed, look at all the work Congress has done to make it more “perfect”.
And Bernanke proves me right about the drunks:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/drunken-ben-bernanke-tells-everyone-at-neighborhoo,21059/
Moran is partially right here. While these arguments do rage amongst the electorate and within the States, the FedGov usually does not argue directly about the problem.
Cutting spending is not as bald a phrase as cutting government. It is not direct, so it does not specify the real problem, the role of government as it has evolved, rather than as it was created. It does not get to the core, the corruption, the perversion, of our government system. By not getting to the heart of the problem, it is, indeed, nibbling around the edges.
I agree, but the core problem with government is the voters. It is as large as the voters on whole demanded of it. While it will slow down a bit due to the Bailouts and the stimulus and other sudden lurches to the left, the fact remains that once the emergency is over, the voters will revert back to demanding the government take care of every minor problem in their lives. They are immoral and know no other way to solve their problems.
Congress is like a runaway barge loaded with scrap metal traveling at 12 knots. It’s going to take a helluva lot to stop the inertia it has put on in the last 60 years. And the salvage operation will be massive.
There is only one answer,
and we all know what it is.
But we pretend not to know, because
that is safer and more respectable.
But somewhere, in the darkness, small
uncertain voices are annunciating the doctrine
that will one day move into the light, struggle and
grow, and eventually attract enough adherents to
become the Grand Vision of the America to come:
VIVE LE GUILLOTINE!
Astonerii, you cannot read. I nowhere said the government did not subsidize healthcare, or that that subsidization did not tend to raise the cost of healthcare. What you are not recognizing is that is far from the whole problem or even the biggest part of the problem. The mandate that that people receive care means the money to pay for that will come from somewhere, and it comes from people with insurance that can pay–as opposed to tax dollars going directly to subsidize it, insurance policy holder’s money goes to subsidize it, without it ever going through government’s hand. It is not a subsidy if it is never paid in taxes–the gov’s are controlling that money flow without it ever going through their hands.
I’m just trying to pin down the pompous windbag T.T.Thomas down on whether he understand what he is claiming he wants done would within days kill tens of thousands and lower the life expectancy for this country by several years, and it will do it for decades.
He has this problem with being specific. The last time hewas specific he proposed death panels as the way lower healthcare costs, same as Obama.
And he thinks he’s a freedom loving patriot and sense and sensibility, unlike these Tea Party folks…
All three contribute then.
The subsidized aspect from the government/employers causes there to be significant inefficiencies. The free care for emergency room visits cause transfer of liability, which are compounded by the subsidization. Since I cannot find statistics that split the amount of money spent in emergency rooms compared to overall spending on health care, it is hard to see how much of a premium this aspect adds. The question is, does it drive prices to go up faster than the rate of inflation? That would only occur if the number of people abusing this system increases faster than the rate of population growth. Again, no statistics are easily found.
A good reason to secure the border though…
More Riotous Times in Obamaland
A great, new product, “delicious little mints” called “Disappointmints” and depicting President Barack Hussein Obama in a classic pose and the caption, “This Is Change?” is on the market. Priced originally at $3.00, the capitalist pigs selling the confection jacked up the price to $5.00 and delayed delivery until September when demand for “Disappointmints” far exceeded the on-hand supply.
I won’t furnish the details on the on-line dealer since they say in their sales pitch, “Hey, we’ve been as big a fan of Barack Obama as anyone,” even if they add, ”But with each compromise for the sake of unity, ‘Yes we can’ looks more like ‘No he can’t.’ “
In point of fact, the president definitely can. The issue is more precisely, What has Obama done and therein lies the aptness of Disappointmints.
Among a multitude of other domestic and international failed initiatives, he has managed to effect a virtual state of siege in various American communities where blacks have run amok.
Two recent incidents are only the latest illustrative examples of how well Obama’s post racial civility is going.
Following riots and pandemonium earlier this year in and around his adopted town of Chicago, in Peoria, Ilinois, in Bessemer, Alabama, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, (see “Riotous Times in America,” http://bit.ly/l5QQr0), and in Des Moines, Iowa, (See “They Eyes Don’t Always Have It,” http://bit.ly/riDuRM), new eruptions broke out this past week in Philadelphia and again in Milwaukee.
A public transportation bus became the site of an insane shooting scene in Philadelphia after a male passenger chastised a mother for spanking her 2 year old for acting up on the bus. The passenger threatened to turn her in for abusing her child. The woman forestalled that notification by immediately grabbing her cell phone and making a call.
She disembarked at her stop with the assistance of her brother who cleared the way for two men who then loosed a fusillade of 14 bullets from an assault rifle and a handgun into the bus.
Watch the mayhem and the actions of the black mother and the black gunmen on a surveillance video: http://bit.ly/mZpAbf
Some people may have forgotten that Philly was the scene of the 2008Election Day white voter intimidation by the New Black Panther Party, one of whom said at the time that this is what you get with a black man in charge. That implications of that threat have become very clear and were accented by Obama’s Attorney General refusal to prosecute the Panthers and subsequent indications the DoJ wouldn’t pursue cases unless the aggrieved parties were minorities.
You may have forgotten all that but the new Philly gunman evidently didn’t nor could the residents of Milwaukee have forgotten what happened there last Friday since it was a virtual re-play of the Mayfair Mall mayhem in January with the qualification that this time the marauders were more violently focused at the Wisconsin State Fair. . .
(Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=5191)
The bloating of Government so now we have scores of thousands of complex agencies is being fed by, and exists for, providing employment for the parents and children of a rather large number of Americans.
Another article at PJ media correctly points out we have spent trillions of dollars on poverty programs and the poor are still poor. It would be neat to say something pithy – like the poor will always be with us, or, an academic equivalent – the structures of America societal believes, as recent research has carefully (neat piece of baloney that “carefully”)indicate that blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
The trillions spent of poverty were never intended to do a thing other than to provide salaries and jobs to the people who administer the programs. And to do oversight on them.
Anyone here ever have to support a family of 3 on $25,000 a year (that’s about 2 full-time minimum wage slave jobs)? Just curious. Do the math there: first you take about a third right off the top for SS and insurance premiums. That makes what, about $16000. Subract another $750/month for rent on the only measly apartment available that you can afford, that leaves $7000. Then let’s figure food (around $350 per month), let’s see that leaves us with $2800. Then we’ll figure out let’s say $100/month for heat and phone (no cable) = $1600, divided over 12 months. Ooh yeah, $133 per month left after taxes to cover frivolities like clothing, travel (get to work – you know, being a contributor to the economy), and childcare and insurance copays.
My point? Before you go thinking that those of us who don’t make as much money have a greedy entitlement problem, consider what you would do in this situation. “Work harder”? Yeah, that’ll help raise healthy young Americans – since daycare is so cheap and extended family is ALWAYS available to cover the non-9to5 jobs most of us work. Since I didn’t have that abortion, I now have a mouth to feed. Excuse me for living and needing a little help. Oh that’s right, I’m supposed to hit up that local church that is full of judgemental jerks who don’t give enough to their church anyway to fund it, much less help someone who doesn’t have some flashy illness. Also, have you ever been in a DSHS office? I have. It’s a guaranteed 3 hours of being talked down to and told to “buck up” because Uncle Sam can’t help you because your income is too high. Yup, that’s right, even in liberal country, $25000/year is too much for public assistance.
Here I thought the United States stood for Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Those of us who don’t pay Income Tax are sure living the high-life. Apparently “Real Americans” only care about themselves. Excuse me if I get a little upset when people think the best thing to do is gut Medicaid. Yup. Nothing says First World Nation like 50% of the population being told by the Tea Party that they don’t deserve to live, much less vote because we “don’t have a stake in the country”.
No, I never had to do it, but was a member of a family of 6, 5 and 4 that never had income over $10,000/year growing up (til 1988). I guess the only advantage was that we grew up in a home paid for long ago. We shopped at goodwill, used our elder’s hand me down’s. I did not understand name brands, and in fact still do not. I buy for value, not a name tag. I got some new stuff too, from Kmart mostly and for my 14th birthday my grandma (the parent of the house) spent $350 on a moped for me, as I usually walked 5 miles to the next town to hang out with my one friend from school.
It is not an easy life, but if you make good choices, there is no reason you cannot succeed without relying on the labors of others. My Grandmother worked until she was 74, and only due to unrecoverable health reason’s did she stop, and to great distress to herself.
By the way, you say family of 3, is there a daddy there? If not, why not? Have you completely written off the idea of marriage? you did not have the abortion, but did you abstain from sex while unable to afford a child and while out of wedlock? yeah, poor you, having to endure people telling you that you might do better if you lived a moral life. One more reason I aim to help destroy the welfare state. You need that moral guidance. The number of self righteous envious and downright degenerate welfare recipients far out number those who are grateful for what they get.
Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
You have the right to your life, to do with as you please.
You have the right to your liberty, to spend your days as you please.
You have the right to the pursuit of happiness, but not the result of happiness.
When other people are required to work to pay for your poor choices, you have just taken their rights away from them. If you look at our government 4% of GDP goes to protecting the country from outside menaces. Maybe at most, another 4% goes to the rest of government that is legitimate (your medicaid/refundable tax credits and so forth are not legitimate according to the constitution). That means, I should not be paying more than 8% of my income for taxes. I think the last time I paid less than 10% of my income as taxes, income that is, not to include the FICA and such, was while I was in the military. That pretty much means that I spend a good part of each day working for someone else to be able to spend my labor.