Reflections on the Gilad Shalit Deal
The most common response in Israeli public discussions to expressions of doubt regarding the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange deal has been: “Well, what if it was your son who had been kidnapped?” This phrase, with its underlying accusation of patriotic posturing and hypocrisy, is something of a discussion-ender. It implies that you, the doubter, are willing to strike a cruel and self-righteous pose because of indifference to the fate of a stranger. The statement further implies that this mask of supposed strength and realism would of course rapidly collapse if an individual dear to you, the doubter, were involved in the equation.
This statement expresses two seemingly contradictory assumptions. The first is an immediate conclusion that any appeal to the general good and the collective interest contains an essential hypocrisy and artificiality. The second, however, is a passionate affirmation of loyalty to the communal interest expressed in a particular way: namely, that of non-indifference to the fate of the fellow community-member Gilad Shalit.
The seemingly simple, impassioned statement – “what if it was your son who had been kidnapped?” — is thus not simple at all. Rather, it is an accurate reflection of the attitude of a large body of Israeli Jews today vis a vis the collective “Israeliness” to which they belong. This attitude in turn represents a strategic dilemma for Israel, on which its enemies have pinned their hopes of eventual victory in their long war against Jewish sovereignty. What explains this attitude?
The deal for Shalit’s release saw the release of the kidnapped soldier in return for Israel’s freeing of 1027 Palestinian prisoners. Those freed included the planners of some of the most shocking and universally condemned attacks on Israeli civilians to have taken place in recent years.
From a strategic point of view, it is perfectly obvious that this deal makes no sense at all. Indeed, it is quite unimaginable that any country other than Israel would even contemplate concluding such an agreement. To assert this is not merely speculation, but verifiable fact. A near-direct parallel to the Shalit case currently exists in the case of U.S. Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, who has been held by the Taliban in Afghanistan since June 2009.
Bergdahl’s captors are demanding the release of 21 Afghans currently in U.S. captivity. There are no indications, however, that the U.S. is considering the offering of any terms at all in return for Bergdahl, a man whose name few Americans know.
So Israel’s response does not typify that of Western democracies. Is it then to be explained by reference to Israel’s unique Jewish identity, and to deeply rooted Jewish communal norms?
It is not. It is important to understand that whatever Jewish tradition may have to say regarding the redeeming of captives, the practice of massively lopsided prisoner exchanges is not of particularly long vintage in Israel. It dates in essence from the Jibril exchange of 1985.
So where has this entirely unique, relatively new, seemingly counterintuitive, passionately supported practice emerged from? I would suggest that it derives from Israel’s unique situation as a Western democracy which is forced by circumstance to require from its citizens a greater degree of collective involvement and willingness to sacrifice than any comparable society. The result is a curious and possibly dysfunctional
version of communal concern. The essential atomization and self-absorption of human beings and skepticism toward communal obligations is taken for granted, in a manner reflective of mainstream public views in most Western democracies today. But unlike in the case of the unfortunate Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, simply forgetting about the fate of a kidnapped soldier is impossible.
“What if it will be your son, daughter, father, mother, husband, and wife who will be killed by some of the released terrorist prisoners?”
Then it would be the effect of sticking one’s d*ck into a hornet’s nest if their current record of ass-kickery is any indication.
A rational sane leadership NEVER ransoms an entire nation to one family’s personal saga.
While it is true that our sons are citizen soldiers,(I have two of my own, so I am not talking hypothetically!) it is also true that they are soldiers first when they don their uniforms! Moreover, it is a testament to our politicians lack of political will (and their appeasement mentality)that Hamas leaders in particular, and Gazans in general, were not truly terrorized by our forces into releasing Schalit.
After all, they entered Gaza under ‘Operation Cast Lead’(with our vaunted Golani troops in the forefront) in 2009, supposedly to finally ! stop their missile attacks on our cities AND to retrieve Schalit. Alas, their shock and awe operation pummeled their buildings, but did little to subdue the Gazans.In fact, the main terrorists were comfy in their bunkers.They remained unscathed, alive and well to crow about ALL the heretofore ‘red lines’ our leaders crossed with these releases.
Furthermore, our politicians keep saying that they ‘know how to deal’ with the released terrorists. Okey dokey…..since they could not retrieve Schalit (their fear was that too many Gazans would be ‘collateral’ damage in such an operation….holy smokes) when they were deep inside Gaza, how in the hell are they going to protect us from newly released, hardened, highly motivated, revenge seeking MASS killers?
I can go on and on, but suffice it to say-unless and until the core Zionist public topples-democratically, of course-our mendacious, ‘what choice did we have’ failed leaders, we will witness more kidnappings and the emptying of all our jails!
In the age of Youtube style comments, the most eloquently worded response to an article I’ve ever read.
this action has actually put your children at increased risk! There will be MORE kidnappings because of it.
Exchanges like this are simply unsustainable. It is obvious that releasing of these beasts adds to the market of those that will commit terrorist atrocities and further kidnappings, and adds to the incentive to continue kidnappings; thus causing more prisoner exchanges and more and more terrorist atrocities and kidnappings. Obviously, this will end very badly in the long (or short) run for Israel. Unless Israel is willing to change the equation by imposing such force and pressure on their enemies, with less regard for the populace (which generally supports these terrorists and kidnappings, and their vicious government), such that they are able to impose their will on their enemies, there can be no justification for this. If it were my son, I would be doing much of same as what Galit’s father has done and I should not be blamed for it. But in the back of my mind, as was probably in the back of Galit’s father’s mind, I would know that it is the macro wrong course.
The problem is that modern Israel has abondoned its ancient principles and followed the weak effete European Socialist model. These murderers and terrorists should have been executed a long time ago. Now in order to save one life inevitably hundreds of innocent lives will be sacrificed. Justifying this with a phony moral superiority.
Very well said, especially the morally superior part. This feeling of smugness, self righteousness(a leftist disease) is well documented through the insane IDF Code of Conduct, where ‘havlaga’, restraint is strength, is its centerpiece.
In Orwellian doublespeak, an army’s self imposed restraint IS its strength.Huh and duh? This is like saying, I will stare down the enemy, in due time they will just go away.
However, all is not lost.Consider:This past week a meeting of core Zionists took place in Hevron, our ancient city of patriarchs. They set a goal-they placed a $ 100,000 price/bounty on the head of the newly freed killer of Benjamin & Talia Kahane.Not only did this monster (now free due to our demented politicians)kill two parents, but they maimed five of their children! The assembled decided, that since the politicians have turned justice upside its head (violating Israel’s own Basic Law and international law too-Nullum Crimen Sine Poena,No Crime Without Punishment, but I digress)they will have to do the heavy lifting.
When a leadership is derelict in its most sacred duty, the protection of its citizens, it is important for them to lift the injustice off the floor and take care of business.While some may call this vigilante justice, this is nonsense. In a country where law and order means less than squat the citizens are obligated ! to change the calculus.
There will be many more justice seekers.This the readers can be sure, as more Jewish bodies pile up due to these mendacious releases.By the way, those who assembled in Hevron are not just talkers, they are doers.
Enough said.
They are also fringe. I really don’t see a gazillion of Israelis joining this kind of “initiatives”.
The European Socialist model isn’t really weak or effete, garyj. It’s designed by the Left to spiral the society downward to “revolution”, their pretty word for a Communist coup.
Lenin and the boys were vociferously against capital punishment for ANY offense until they took power – then they hanged people for jaywalking.
The hard Left makes common cause with Islamist terror because what contributes to societal unrest – what makes citizens angry, sad, unhappy – brings power closer to the Left.
A person who protests the death penalty for one convicted of premeditated murder is probably just a dupe of the Left, but he might know exactly what he’s doing.
Israel has no death penalty because it was founded by the Left. They need to get beyond that or die.
Terrorism is constantly on the mind of Israel. If these prisoners were still in jail, terror would still be planned. I feel for the victims relatives but please don’t use the excuse that these terrorist will go back to terrorism. That’s a given and Israel knows it. Released prisoners or not, the number 1 objective of Hamas and the PLO is to wipe Israel of the map.
Wafa al-Bis who was freed is now inciting young children to blow themselves up.
But this indoctrination has been going on since Arafat returned to the region and if she did not get back there would be others to take her place.
Gilad Shalit release: freed Palestinian prisoner vows to ‘sacrifice’ her life
Israel has to ramp up precautions to cut down on the possibility of a soldier being kidnapped.
It took time and they seem to have reduced the numbers hitch-hiking.
One of those released is a Brazilian Muslim who took part in killing a soldier hitch-hiking in Israel proper.
Seeing she has gone back there maybe she will now attempt to kill some Brazilian Jew.
This is a classic example of Bastiat’s discussion of “Things seen and unseen”. Gilad Shalit is seen. He is an individual with a name, and he can be put in front of video cameras for all to see. He has a family who wants his safe return, all of whom can be put in front of video cameras for all to see.
The people who will die in terrorist attacks are theoretical. They are not visible because they haven’t happened yet. They are Bastiat’s “unseen”.
In a contest between things seen and unseen, our emotions will respond to the seen far more than the unseen. This is where our intellect has to override our emotions.
If it was my son, I would make the trade. That, however, is why we have leaders to make tough decisions involving others.
I would like Netanyahu to make this announcement. “All those released are subject to summary execution if they reinvolve with terrorism in any way, whatsoever. By word or deed.”
They should be subject to summary execution if they are seen.
The problem here in Israel is that when we say, “Gilad Shalit is the son of all of us.” like Netanyahu said to the UN a few weeks ago, that is not rhetoric, but the the simple truth. And yes that is our greatest weakness, because what would a parent not do for their children? They would try to move heaven and earth. They do not worry about the long term good of society. Knowing this is a weakness you would think we would try change, but the complication is that this weakness is the flip side to all our greatest strengths.
So the question becomes knowing that this is our great weakness, how can we manage it? The first thing that comes to my mind it the death penalty. Anybody else have any ideas?
I agree – from a purely politically strategic standpoint, the prisoner exchange seems like a bad idea.
However, from a corrections / prison perspective, there could be a very interesting economic strategy behind the exchange.
There is a serious Israeli Prison Overcrowding issue to consider.
Just a few months ago (in August 2011, 770 Palistinian Prisoners were released from Israeli Prisons due to overcrowding issues.
So…why not release 1000+ prisoners to get an Israeli POW back….and make solve some overcrowding issues as well?
Just a random thought.
1000+ for one guy is way too much, but a lot of them were low-level criminals. As for the rest, I have no doubt that a few were turned by the Israelis, and the “Palestinians” will spend many a sleepless night wondering which ones it is.
Not true. Most are hard cases. As more and more details are emerging families of those slain by these mass murdering butchers have been coming out to protest the injustice to their lost loved ones. The government doesn’t care.
Where was the media outcry when the Israeli’s released 770 Palistinian prisoners in August 2011 or the 500 Palistinian prisoners in February 2005 due to prison overcrowding issues?
Note – these prisoners were not traded for any Israeli POWs…simply released into the wind.
Just sayin’
People make the mistake of believing that this somehow shows Israel’s ‘strength’. They have created a multiheaded monster that simply cannot be appeased. Worse, they have doomed thousands of other people to the fate of this young soldier.
How long before the next kidnapping, and the next set of concessions? What they got was 1,000 human weapons handed to their enemies. How long before the murderers ask for a blockade to be removed to save a bus load of children? A section of the wall to save a mother and her babies? Let the next Gaza Flotilla through or these hostages get it?
Once they would have rescued him whether they would have had to fly to a hostile foreign country and fight a battle to do it they would have done it. Now they are so risk adverse that they fear even a righteous strike literally in their backyard. They would rather pay danegeld than draw the sword.
“We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!”
R.Kipling
Funny that it was the English who made a regular practice of paying Danegeld in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries. Guess Mr Kipling wasn’t nearly as good a student of history as he was a writer.
“Funny that it was the English who made a regular practice of paying Danegeld in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries. Guess Mr Kipling wasn’t nearly as good a student of history as he was a writer.”
Interesting bit of analysis. I thought Kipling wrote rather later than the 10th, 11th, and 12th centuries — after the English would have had time to learn why paying the Danegeld was not a good idea.
I think that Kipling knew about English kings paying Danegeld since he specifically used that term. I do believe he was aware of the history of England. Did you think because he was English he believed the English never made mistakes? Read his works. They’re good and you might learn something.
They probably didn’t know where he was held or the IDF would have tried a rescue mission during the Cast Lead operation. The idea that a rescue operation wasn’t attempted because we’re risk adverse is ridiculous since the IDF risks its soldiers to minimize the civilian casualties on the Arab side, no matter what your media tells you. We send ground troops when possible on occasions you would bomb from the air to minimize your military casualties. In the “Jenin Massacre” that never was, for instance, 23 Israeli soldiers died because we sent ground troops to minimize civilian casualties in a camp where hundreds of terrorists planted themselves in the midst of civilians and boobytrapped houses and other civilian facilities. Your dirty media then “reported” – based solely on the Arabs’ word – a “massacre” of hundreds of poor innocent Arab lambs at the hands of the evil blood thirsty Israeli wolf. At some point the Guardian outdid the Arabs and “reported” thousands of dead, no less. Turned out there were about 50 Arab casualties, half of which terrorists, and 23 Israeli soldiers. Your filthy media than published a correction somewhere down page 17, claiming that in spite of their insignificant little inaccuracy there is still “evidence” of “war crimes”, though they didn’t detail what “war crimes”. If we’re risking our soldiers to save enemy civilians, do you really think we won’t risk them to save an Israeli soldier if we could?
I did not say what kind of ‘risk’ they were adverse to. The Israeli government is afraid of casualties on any side. They are trying to appease the media and anti-Semitic world governments.
Being afraid to kill or afraid of being killed amounts to the same thing in the end for the Israeli’s because the enemy is afraid of neither. So you can either make the peace of submission or the peace of the grave with them.
They will never make a true peace and Israel has shown the lack of will to force them to quit. They are not longer stupid enough to depend upon their own military strength. They are counting on their enemy’s weakness.
Apparently there were doubts expressed about Shalit even being in Gaza; That he was somewhere in Sinai.
Can this be corroborated?
It is also apparent that many criticizing Israel’s conduct have forgotten or are ignorant of Nachson Waxman and what happened to him when the IDF tried to rescue him.
Greetings:
Back in my high school basketball-playing days, our coach had two favorite mantras that he inflicted on us with regularity. The first was “you have 32 minutes (referring to the game’s four 8-minute quarters) to figure these people out”; the second was “the opposition determines our tactics”. Several years later, during my all-expense-paid tour of sunny Southeast Asia, I realized that my two greatest fears were being captured by our enemy or having one of my infantrymen captured. Death and dying, I felt somewhat prepared for. The total loss of control involved in being captured or my responsibility to any captured subordinate was beyond my psychology’s ability to handle. Fortunately, I didn’t have to deal with either situation.
As Mr. Spyer concludes the problem is one of culture. The Western, Judeo-Christian world has become entranced by the if not “make love, not war” ideology, certainly the “make love or make ‘nice’ war” one. That it can so cling to the “rules of war” when its enemies show no inclination in that regard would be upsetting to my former coach. And, needless to say, Israel has long had plenty of time to figure those “people” out.
During my infantry days, part of the folk wisdom was what was referred to as “the nine-cent solution”. The “nine-cent” was thought to be the price of an M-16 bullet. The problem to be solved was what to do with any enemy prisoner taken. While what to do with a POW may seem to be a simple problem for those far removed, the reality has many more implications. While some POWs may have useful and extractable information most don’t. Likewise, the relocation, detention, and maintenance of POWs have real and substantial costs and risks which need to be considered early and often.
The lesson of Gilad Shalit for me is war is war; it’s not crime. Treating those who participate in “asymmetric” warfare as criminals is less than thoughtful. The participation in it, and the incumbent disregard for the “Judeo-Christian” “rules of war”, should expose those perpetrators to military justice, including the death penalty. Those who willfully attack civilians, and those who aid, abet, or conspire with them should suffer more than some temporary loss of freedom. Death is what they say they crave. Let their wishes be fulfilled.
I submit the need is there for getting tough with the Amalekites. Taking out Gaddafi isn’t enough.
In all honesty, don’t we know enough about those who bellow for the shedding of blood in the name of Allah, that we have to take prisoners?
You state: Taking out Gadaffi isn’t enough.
There is mostly silence about the horrors taking place against Libya’s blacks.
STOP the GENOCIDE of Blacks by the U.S. backed cruel Libya rebels!
The Obama-supported rebels left in charge are now conducting a “large scale cleaning in the areas under their control with the extermination of all blacks in the capital”, according to The Independent.
Barbaric atrocities, kidnappings and ruthless genocide of blacks in Libya by US/France/NATO backed Al-Qaeda/Hezbollah rebels has been going on for months.
US/NATO who have waged war for months for Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda
who MURDER our troops in Iraq-are RESPONSIBLE for stopping the genocide.
US/NATO are also responsible for rescuing the many terrified blacks kidnapped by the rebels, including the kidnapped black children who have been horrifically abused by the black-hater Muslim rebels.
Blacks must have human rights!
STOP THE GENO0CIDE!
United together in JIHAD, US/NATO, Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah triumph over Libya.
Admiral James Stavridis, NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander, Europe, and the commander of the U.S. European Command told the U.S. Senate that Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah fighters are among the Libyan rebels currently receiving support from the US and its NATO allies. This was confirmed by one of the Libyan rebel officers, Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, who leads one of the Al-Qaeda units.
U.S/NATO joined with Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah terrorists to wage war.
Gadaffi did some terrible things. But US/NATO consider barbaric Al Qaeda and barbaric Hezbollah to be good guys to be placed in power in Libya? US/NATO have great guilt in making the world a far more dangerous place.
Thank you for the excellent column.
All important points, for Israel and for all the West.
But there is a but.
There was another element in the situation, that you do not discuss: Israel has been unable to free Shalit with a direct action of the Army, or Special Forces, or Intelligence.
And that is a factor in moving the public opinion towards the compromise.
There has been a perceived impotence of the State.
Remember the past ? Bibi’s brother died in the operation IN UGANDA to free the hijacked plane. Israel could project its power very very far.
Another example: the hunt for the murderers that had acted at Munich and that were hunted down one by one in the following years.
Something has changed in the way Israel defends itself, and not for good.
The public opinion has witnessed the failure in Lebanon, and the inability to find Shalit and to free him using force.
No wonder the public opinion becomes “soft”.
In Italy there is proverb : the fish stinks from the head. In this case: if the State is weak, the public opinion becomes weak (with the only exception of our country, the USA.)
You’d be surprised, but it might be less difficult to storm an airport in another continent as long as you know exactly where the airplane is and where the hostages are located in it, than it is to find one hostage held in a hole in the ground when only a few people know the location. Also the rescue mission might be impossible if the hotage is wrapped with explosives and/or constantly has guards with guns pointed to his head. Such a rescue mission was tried and failed in the 90s with POW Nakhshon Waxman who was shot dead by his capturers before the IDF soldiers got to him. Also in Entebe 1 hostage was shot dead, but there were many hostages, so we remember the success. When there’s only 1 hostage and he’s killed it is a total failure.
The photo of every single one of the released Barbaric Muslim Terrorists who were released should be shown throughout the world. Their photos should be posted at all airports, railway stations, bus stations, movie theaters, supermarkets, post offices, parks, etc. People have THE RIGHT TO KNOW who these monsters are so that they can be on their guard against these violent, hate-filled terrorist killers.
INNOCENTS MUST HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE PROTECTED
In Judea and Samaria, Muslims are chanting: “The people want a new Shalit”
There is a radical difference between Muslim and non-Muslim culture and beliefs. Non-Muslims believe all murders are evil and when murderers are released, people are angry and disgusted.
But in the Palestinian Authority, savage murderers of infidel Jews are regarded as huge HEROES by PA Muslims. Sports teams, streets, schools, city squares are dedicated to, and named after barbaric killers of Jewish innocents. Muslims are filled with joy over the release of cruel killers-they are celebrating and setting off fireworks.
Non-Muslims regard murder as EVIL and the wicked breaking of G-D’s Law. It is revolting and inhuman that these Muslims regard murder as EXTREMELY GOOD. The “peace” they are planning is a Second Holocaust of Jews.
Britain’s Cameron: “I hope this prisoner exchange will bring peace a step closer,”
UN Secretary General: “Ban Ki-moon sees peace process boost from prisoner swap deal.”
For Cameron and Ban Ki-moon, “peace” is achieved by increasing violent jihad against Jews in the releasing of over a thousand inhuman Muslim monster killers with blood on their hands.
It is the violent, murderous “peace” the immoral Quartet seek for Israel.
In the past, hundreds of Jews have been barbarically murdered by Muslim terrorists that Israel released from jail. It is unbearable to contemplate the suffering of future victims. G-D help them.
“Well, what if it was your son who had been kidnapped?”
If it was my son, he’d know I would not approve a barter in which 1027 mortal enemies of our nation were traded for him. He’d also not expect such a trade, and quite likely would have been killed resisting his captors or in an escape attempt.
The correct response for Israel was not to barter with the Palestinians but to destroy them.
Disengagement was an act of national self-mutilation, releasing the killers an act of mass murder.
Israel is at war with itself.
These are two fundamentally different acts. The first decision was based on the false premise that if we’ll give them land they’ll give us peace – the delusion that is the basis for the entire Oslo War Process. The second decision was a conscious, undeluded, act of love.
About 80% of the population supported releasing terrorists for Gilad Shalit. None of these people had any illusions about the probable consequences, yet they decided not to let him die like Ron Arad, a POW captured in 1986 Israel refused to trade a gazillion of terrorists for. After years of failed negotiations Ron Arad had disappeared with no trace. Over the years there have been various conflicting testimonies about his fate. It’s considered a sort of a national trauma. There are popular songs about him, an association for freeing him and other missing slodiers (people remember missing soldiers from 1948), a yearly rally, a yearly air force ceremony (he was a navigator in the air force), bumper stickers, TV programs.
Crazy? Perhaps. Maybe it’s just a distinct Israeli characteristic that developed over the years. Maybe it’s the fact that the question “What if it was your son?” isn’t abstract to the average Israeli because most Israelis served in the army and have or had family and friends in the army, many have lost relatives and friedns or know people who were injured or maimed – if you’re an average Israeli it can be your son, and it can be you, and they kidnap civilians too if they can. Maybe it’s some of the songs we grew up on, the war related songs. The single overwhelmingly common theme in these songs is loss, usually in a personal tone – the loss of an individual, an individual that will never see the Sun rise again, will never love again, will never dream again, the loss of a friend, a boyfriend, a brother, a son, a father. Heart breaking songs. Another common theme is friendship. Indeed the most iconic Israeli “war song” is called “The Friendship”, an oldie from 1948/9. There’s a commitment to friendship and to remembrance. Maybe the ability to save someone from a certain death makes you feel less powerless in the face of all that loss. The deaths that will follow aren’t certain. Since we constructed the security fence successful terrorist attacks were reduced to almost none (isn’t that the real reason the Western left demands to destroy it?). Letting Gilad Shalit die would be a cold and calculated decision, and the Israelis aren’t cold. It wasn’t so much a decision of the government as it was the will of the people. Netanyahu listens to the people more than other PMs.
“Letting Gilad Shalit die would be a cold and calculated decision, and the Israelis aren’t cold.”
So? Now those people will have the blood of hundreds on their hands. Let me know how warm and fuzzy they feel with the coming atrocities of their fellow Israelis.
Agree 100%. This is not a soap opera that were watching.
While I understand the need to not to negotiate with terrorists and agree with it, it is hard not to be proud of a society that values each one of its citizens to the degree that Gilad Shalit was valued.
For the terrorists, – their value is solely dependent on the value that we place on our citizens. They have no value of their own.
” . . . a society that values each one of its citizens to the degree that Gilad Shalit was valued” would not sentence untold numbers of his fellow citizens to death for his release.
oh good grief. Get off your freaking soap box for one second and realize that the reason that we are even having this discussion is because our society values each life – not just the lives of kings and sons of important people, but every single life.
My comment is true: “For the terrorists, – their value is solely dependent on the value that we place on our citizens. They have no value of their own.”
The fact that you can’t and won’t accept this without jumping on your soap-boax is because you are wrapped up in being right on the issue of negotiating for terrorists. These two thoughts are not mutually exclusive.
It IS a good thing that we value life. Yes, it is a bad thing that they use our goodness against us. But it is not the only place that they use our goodness against us – far from it. They use it against us in every way they can, because they are evil.
This is a “showstopper” only in the same way that discussions about limiting free speech are showstoppers. For the most part, it is a really bad idea, but there are times we can – and should do it. It should be at least CONSIDERED – if only to be rejected.
I think a lot of people here, including some Israelis, miss an important point. Yes, from a rational point of view this deal makes no sense. But for a 17 years old boy that will join the army a year from now it means the world to know that the state, millions of his countrymen, the entire army, most of the security establishment, the Prime Minister and most of the government and Knesset – the entire country, in addition to his small nuclear family – will turn the heavens and the earth to free him and get him home alive. As a soldier you’re expected to give anything, up to sacrificing your life, for your country and your people, for their survival and freedom. Yes, you fight for your family and yourself, and that’s motivation enough, but does it make a difference to know that the entire state is behind you, that the entire people cares about you, that every child knows your name and wishes for your release, that your people will be willing to go to that length and take such risks to save you? One for all and all for one – remember? How do you think this kind of solidarity influences the army’s morale? And the people’s morale? We’re talking about a very long term conflict here, a century long struggle for survivavl. Morale is important. Does solidarity make a difference?
Do you think it’s a weakness? Look at our enemies. Hamas made prisoners of other movements part of the deal. Do the other movements feel grateful outside the required formal facade? No. Becuase they know Hamas didn’t do it for love, but as a show of force and a political bid for popular support and power. How do they know that? Because Hamas doesn’t hesitate to torture and brutally kill PLO people when it suits Hamas, and vise versa. In the long run who do you think is stronger – a solidary society, fighting for its survival, that is willing to risk hundreds to save one, or a society raised on hate, that sanctifies death for god, that fights to destroy another country and another people, while at the same time fighting – with arms, not words – within itself and ruling its own by fear? In a poll published on the last Jewish New Year’s eve 88% of Israelis said Israel is a good country to live in. How many Arabs would say that about their own countries? Do you really think that mentally Israel is the weaker side?
Wow – great post!
Actually with all due respect, Israel is not looking for respect and we don’t need to show how much we value life. This all looks like a roadway show and actually looks ridiculous. That video with the Chinese girl would never have happened in Israel. On the other hand taking a devil may care attitude shows a dangerous lack of concern for life. Now where did that come from?
It is honestly immaterial why the Israelis chose to release a thousand hostages. That very act ensures that more hostages will be taken. Some of those hostages must be killed so that the threat is considered credible. Since the trade is 1000 for 1 they can literally kill all their hostages save a few and get all of their murderers back.
True compassion is not weakness. You do not allow your child to avoid vaccination because he is afraid of shots. You do not free a criminal because he ‘languishes’ in prison. You do not trade hostages for prisoners because that guarantees more hostages.
So what will you say to the next set of hostages? And the next after that? What do you say when you are out of 1000 prisoners to pay for each hostage?
“Sorry we cannot ransom you we don’t have their price.” Or “Glad to get you back little one we only had to release all our remaining terrorists and arm them as they walked out the prison door.”?
So what if it makes you feel good that is beside the point. What matters is that while this felt good in the short run, you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that unless you are willing to concede or change your appeasement habit, you will lose.
Worse they will win and 85% of the skeletons can agree that they like their new graveyard so much better than a messy dangerous living world.
Thank you!
Compassion is not a weakness but misplaced use of compassion is stupid!
Perhaps I hold a view which may seem bizarre to some….but to critical thinkers not so much.
Culturaly Isreal places a high value on the lives of it’s people…..the design of the Merkava tank(the main design criteria being the survival of it’s crew) is testament to this.
Culturaly, Islam is a value/moral system rooted in brigandage. Mohammed was a bandit/Brigand. Arabs culturaly place not value on human life…theirs or others. Only gold, negotiable trade goods, horses, hostages and slaves have any value. Prisoners, historicaly, are routinely slaughtered….
This exchange compels the arabs to give quarter and take prisoners and keep them safe…live hostages have a high value.
Thusly this situation makes these non-participants conduct themselves, to an extent, with the Geneva Accords.
That is a major achievement.
As far as the freed terrorists…the pervasive, suspicious nature of their own people will without doubt reduce their operational value….and result in their de facto retirement…or relegation to the ranks of suicide bombers.
your post is truly moving, heartfelt, and eloquent.
It breaks my heart to say, however, that ultimately it is a sign of weakness, and I hope that this is the last time such a prisoner exchange, a release of hundreds of bloodthirsty killers who are bound by oath and belief to kill again, just as others released before them indeed have done, resulting in large numbers of civilian deaths, will ever take place.
The IDF is, in my opinion, honor-bound to inform all young soldiers beginning their service, that such a policy will no longer be in effect.
Thanks. And I don’t think it’s a sign of weakness. It’ll no doubt be *interpreted* by the other side as a sign of weakness, which will be tragic for both sides. We misunderstand each other – the Arabs and us. If they think we’re weak they’ll attack, expecting that with a bit more pressure we will all flee, leave our country to them and drown ourselves in the sea, only to find out they misinterpreted our “signs of weakness” and we have no intentions of going anywhere.
Hamas says their strength and our weakness is that we love life and they love death. But is that so? Look at everything we achieved and everything the Arabs achieved. We’re the only nation in the history of mankind that lost its country to the empires and suceeded in reclaiming her land, reestablishing her state and reviving her ancestral language. The land was mostly desert and we succeeded in building a country, creating advanced agriculture and a first world economy with an advanced hitech industry. We’re probably the only country in the world that had absorbed in a short period of time a number of refugees from different cultures that was about equal in size to the existing population, without them even being recognized as refugees by the world (apparently, unlike any other people, Jews who are expelled are not refugees – when it comes to Jews, so it seems, expulsion is just normal). We’ve never had a civil war, a dictatoship or a violent revolution in spite of all the challenges. Unlike Western countries in their current phase, we managed to develop our country, society and economy not in peace times in a sheltered environment, but under constant conflict, including several major wars, long term limited conflict and many thousands of terrorist attacks, rockets and missiles, and a general boycott by most of the Muslim world and their allies. Do you really think we’re weak people? I’d say we’re pretty determined.
What have the Arabs achieved? Dictatorships, dire poverty unless they have oil, wars, civil wars, bloody revolutions, rule of fear and a colossal waste of human talent. Like spoiled brats they have a tantrum whenever they don’t get everything they scream for. They want to dominate, but they can’t even control themselves. Our territory is about 0.2% the size of the Arab territory, yet they’re obsessed with destroying us and are willing to sacrifice a generation after generation to accomplish that most noble of ambitions. Is that really strength? If they are really the spiritually strong side and we are the spiritually weak side how is it that every time the Arabs tried to destroy us we ended up becoming stronger than we were before? Is that a sign of weakness of character?
After the Jibril deal many of the released terrorists went back to terrorism and killed hundreds of Israelis. Did we learn a lesson? Obviously we didn’t learn to not exchange a thousand terrorists for one soldier. But maybe we learned other lessons from all those kidnappings. For instance, methods to prevent kidnappings. We’ve learned that it’s important to minimize contact with enemy combatants on the border and minimize the vulnerability of our soldiers. For that purpose we develop innovative defence systems for tanks and armored vehicles, such as this one, and unmanned vehicles such as this one:
hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEUJl42zb9U
and gadgets like this “snake camera”:
hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-dzZBa6TQE
There’s also a change in opertaional instructions. Today soldiers are instructed to shoot the kidnappers even at a risk to the hostage’s life.
So kidnapping becomes more difficult, and also sending terrorists into Israel became more difficult with the security fence and may become even more difficult with additional pretty innovative technologies:
hxxp://www.israel21c.org/technology/sraels-top-10-airport-security-technologies
In addition to making the lives of the terrorists harder we also gain knowledge, improve our technological capabilities, and sell our technologies to other countries, plus an ever growing technological cooperation with the #1 technology innovator on the globe, the USA, which finds us an increasingly more valuable partner. So we become stronger.
So maybe the solution isn’t to let Gilad Shalit languish to death in a Hamas’ hole in the ground, but to free him and boost the army’s and people’s morale, and at the same time work on a variety of ways to prevent both future kidnapping and future terrorism, so we can significantly diminish the risks of such deals. Maybe that’s our strength.
Freeing Gilad didn’t boost the nations or the soldiers morale. We all know in the back of our minds that the next kidnapping is in the offing. Not only that but this Gilad deal want a case of I get something and you get something. Think about about it as a case of a huge breakout in the jail and a thousand prisoners escaped. Does boost your morale. Not to me it doesn’t. and don’t tell me “Ahh but we got Gilad back”
That’s like me stealing your wallet and then only giving you back the IDs and credit cards but taking all your cash. “Ahh but you got your wallet back”…
We got majorely screwed and while I sleep better that Gilad’s back I sleep a whole lot worse that we got screwed and chances are we will again.
Think about what your saying not emotionally but logically. I’m not here for “a few years of the Israeli experience”. I’m here to stay. And it’s beginning to look like a pipe dream, surrounded by enemies and having a suicidal government.
Maybe it didn’t boost your morale, but according to polls an overwhelming majority of Israelis supported the deal and it was followed by a huge public hug that made the Shalit family beg for a little peace and quiet and a bit of privacy with their son.
Rationally you should take into account the following factors:
1. Morale (again, not yours, but apparently it had a positive effect on the collective Isreali mood). It is LOGICAL to consider this factor since it is an important factor in enduring a long term conflict.
2. The increased ability to prevent terrorist attacks, much higher than it was after the Jibril deal, thanks to the security fence. Come on, how many terrorists succeeded in recent years in crossing to Israel from Judea and Samaria or Gaza and blowing up people? The new point of entrance is the Sinai, now that we have a shining new modrate liberal democarcy in Egypt, but we’ll seal it too.
3. The increased ability to prevent kidnappings that is yet to be tested.
Glad your so blissfully optimistic about our future. You can thank the media for that.
About the the majority of Israelis supporting the deal, being the majority doesn’t make them right. It just means that they haven’t thought about this too much. There seems to be a kind of national collective mood where we’re all “deeply saddened” or in a different case we’re all “ecstatic with joy”. Like you know that little bubble in the corner of the news with the person signing for the deaf people. Well its almost like they also placed subtitles along with the news telling us “emotionally deaf” people that such and such happened, “therefore we should all be concerned”… Such and such occurred, “therefore this a happy moment.”
Its time to start thinking for ourselves. Take no idea or cause for granted.
When they had the demonstrations over summer on Rothschild Ave. reading the papers made me feel like I had to support the protesters. The trouble is that there are buried assumptions in those articles that are taken for granted that we never question. Therefore based on such assumptions I would a 100% agree with you in this case of Gilad Shalit and 100% agree with the media in other areas. (Well with the media maybe 70%.)
Example. People I hear talking about how much the country owes them and how they have to own a house, all the time. And based on those assumptions (that the country owes them and house ownership) then they are probably right, they are being short changed and are standing second in line to big businesses and banks. The trouble is that when ones tries to argue with them, the argument will always be about whether or not they have been short changed, how much more should they be receiving and whether or not the taxes should be raised but not obviously on them, rather on the big companies. (You the the ones where the CEOs receive million dollar bonuses.) The argument will never tread upon whether those assumed rights.. are right. It’s therefore so hard to argue them with and, according my theory if someone is hard to argue with then they probably have some valid points.
But
The real core issues, the underlying ones which are subliminally assumed and consumed by us from the media are glossed over and remain unnoticed and uncontested. These issues are often basically right but remain out of context or out of proportion, leaving it hard for the unassuming person to tell that’s he is being manipulated or duped, and he never gets a chance to decide for himself – being that the core issues are never addressed.
Now, back to my example. You probably said to yourself “of course my country owes me, that’s an issue I agree on so lets get back to the housing issue at hand”. And maybe your right. But the automatic assumption by the media of these key morals disempowers you. They automatically take it for granted that you agree with these core “truths” and the only thing left to debate is the hot topic on the news like the housing demonstration on Rothschild Ave.
However you were never ever given a chance to disagree with the core “truths”. So I sat down one day and started thinking. Does my country really owe me? It doesn’t matter what the answer is, all that matters is that you decide for yourself and not let the media dictate to you your morals. I’m not saying your a sucker for the media. Obviously you wouldn’t be talking on PJ Media if you were. But maybe on certain issues you weren’t aware that your opinion was being taken for granted.
Here are some issues that you assumed as truths in your argument for Gilad Shalit.
(Please correct me if I’m wrong.)
The public and the army need high morale. (I’m not saying they don’t, but its an assumption you’ve made which may seem obvious but did you stop to think about it?) Who said? We’ve survived tougher situations and right now were stronger and richer than we ever were.. I’m just putting this out there.
Your based your argument on the fact letting him out would help our morale which you backed up by an poll that said that the majority support the deal. You said that it is LOGICAL, to consider an important factor such as morale. But have you thought about how it works, the mechanics? Higher public morale comes from Gilad coming back < which comes from us giving in to terror. This higher morale is based on our giving in. Is that good?
You also assume that we have to support our soldiers and take extreme measures to get them back. Well other countries don't… but we, were "special" in that regard – a convenient way of not explaining in words why we don't do what other countries do. So you'll repeat the refrain that we value our soldiers more. Fine. But does that automatically mean that we have to pay exorbitant prices?
What is a normal price anyway? In my mind 1. In most Israelis minds over a hundred. So we've agreed to give in to the terrorists for the Israeli public and soldiers' morale. But at what point do we say for only so much not more than this? Well I'd like to claim that the Israeli public confused the two questions.
One was. Do we give in to terror and therefore end up paying a high price?
Two was. What is a high price assuming were willing to give in to terror?
Now because of the fact fact that we've paid exorbitantly in the past we don't even realize how much of a high price we're paying. Its only double or triple than before. Big deal. But that "before" is in itself was exorbitant.
I'll bet that given the forced perspective of the passage of time this deal will stick out in history as a time where the country lost it's mind. And in Israel, time is usually a just few days, weeks….
The release of Gilad Shalit was well worth the price of 1000 terrorists. It ment the end of a national trauma, and a good end at that.
All Israel now needs to do is to ponder the question if they want to release the Fogel family killers and if the answer is not in the affirmative introduce the death penalty.
That’s all there is to it.
National trauma my ass. I’m Israeli and were tough but were a people who are sometimes too smart and too sensitive. Coupled with the leftist head-up-its-ass media, postmodernist thinking and post zionism, taken hold in the places that count (not with the majority of the people, though it certainly effects their thinking to a degree) like the media and the noise makers and then the decision makers who listen to them.. basically the people are confused.
Confused but NOT TRAUMATIZED.
The national psyche is so confused that we just see numbers and see no meaning in them.
So confused that every 5 minutes I have to keep reminding myself why they are wrong. It should be so simple. 1000 for 1 is ridiculous.
Hopefully now we’ll start soul searching and find out where we stand. This Gilad deal is only a symptom of what is a major problem of unsureness and lack of self confidence as a people/nation. It is not a direct problem of lack of legislation. Making laws may help slightly in another similar scenario but majors issues will keep popping up until we realize where we stand.
From my perspective were fighting for our lives.
As long as I have a keyboard and am able to speak up I”ll try to fight this and speak up. PJ Media is an oasis in this regard. Your strong point is your standing up for truth, which may be a week point in that you don’t attack your aponents with blatant lies and misconceptions.
You Americans have the same problems in your culture and should be speaking out in order to change the tide.
Or maybe it bigger than us and well be swept up in the waves.
At least I wont be caught unawares.
I agree with you about post-Zionism, the media etc., but I disagree that the Gilad Shalit deal is just another symptom of the confusion and lack of confidence. It was supported also by right-wingers who are not confused at all and who didn’t fall for a second for either the Arab line or the anti-Israel and anti-Zionist line, which suggests to me that there are other factors in play, far more positive ones, such as loyalty and commitment to the soldiers and just simply caring a lot for the guy. Of course it’s emotional, but people don’t live on logic alone, and I’m kinda glad Israelis care so much as to lose our head a little in a small way. And it is a small way. The unilateral pullout from Gaza was a huge insanity in so many ways. The Shalit exchange wouldn’t have had any effect on our deterence or projecting weakness without the pullout from Gaza. Even Bush concluded from it that we’ve become weak, so imagine what an impression it made on the Muslim mentality. If we hadn’t projected weakness in so many other ways, our exchange deals of a thousand for one would have been seen as a particular Israeli quirk rather than a part of a pattern.
And yes, I think it is bigger than us – the global left wing, I mean. You see the same patterns in all Western countries. In Israel at least the majority of the population isn’t falling for that to the same degree as in other Western countries because of our experience, but as you said, it effects our thinking. The leftists have started it – the takeover a-la Antonio Gramsci of the academia and media and mainstream political parties – decades ago, and we woke up very late in the game. I don’t think *we* can change the tide because we don’t have such access to the mass media, but I think events will sooner or later change the tide since the left is wrong about everything that matters – the economy, the Islamists, the reverse racism, the nation state, Muslim mass immigration. Too bad it’s gonna be later rather than sooner.
see # 1 above
Is the release of Gilad Shalit worth the deaths of scores of civilians at the hands of those released terrorists?
or, perhaps I should say, worth the deaths of more civilians to come at the hands of those released terrorists?
I am with Pnina.
Israel has promised to her soldiers “If you are lost on the field of battle, we will get you back. Whatever it takes”, as said in this article I want to share with you:
http://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/bravo-for-these-people-these-israelis/
And I think, Israel has always opted for non negotiation when possible (e.g. Entebbe). I am convinced Israel studied as hell the possibility of a rescue. If they opted for negotiation, after many years, is because there were no other options at hand. Also because they don’t want another Ron Arad.
Israel promised no such thing. Excuse me for being blunt. And if they would it is a stupid policy. Let one person stand up and explain to me the LOGIC in taking such a course. Israel’s official policy is not to negotiate with terrorists. Which makes a lot of sense. Terrorists aim for strategic gains by use of not greater military force, rather by starting a silent battle of wills. The ideal should logically be then to never to give in, because then you have lost to someone who is weaker than you. Conventional wisdom would be to beat your opponent militarily. Furthermore having given in once to terrorists reinforces them and they and continue ever stronger.
People seem to be repeating a phrase which is automatically assumed correct as a basis for their argument. They assume that Israel has to do anything for its soldiers. On wars and soldiers their have been many codes, conventions and morals. The logical basis of a person serving in an army, weather as a conscript or as a professional sold is that something could happen to him.
Now how do people jump from the fact that since he gave to his country now his country had better do anything for him? Obviously there is some degree of reciprocation, be it monetary compensation to bereaved families or willingness to either risk other soldiers in a military intervention, or giving up strategic positions or making concessions on behalf of a soldier being held captive. The key principle to be considered being the degree of HOW MUCH and HOW FAR the country should go.
The fact that Israel is willing to go so very far is laudable and shows that each life of its citizens is valued in its utmost. However the degree in which Israel goes in this direction should be no farther than a logical point where the entire country looses too much.
Obviously its a question of how much. And the starting point should be “definitely not more than last time.” Upping the price is stupid. That should be a no brainer. Because if your already giving in at a higher price an easy assumption to make is that next time there will be an even higher price. Remember any concessions made have not only lost this round but reinforced the terrorist’s future strategy.
Furthermore the goal should be to lower the price over time as much as reasonably possible. When you buy tomatoes no sane person is willing to pay 30 dollar for 1. The logical price for an Israeli soldier should start at one Arab prisoner. Being that they know we want the soldier back more than they want their prisoner freed brings the price up to more than one. Two or three prisoners is then logical. More and you loose dangerous ground. More and you encourage the kidnapping of soldiers. Now every time someone is conscripted that they are a prime target for kidnapping.
In theory, if it was literally impossible to kidnap a soldier then the price for one could be very high since Israel is willing to give up so much for a single soldier. This would be okay in a single case. But where kidnapping is an ongoing possibility and in fact a much publicized policy of the Hamas, run the scenarios over in your brain and you’ll see that while such a policy is admirable it is not at all practical. In fact it is downright stupid and dangerous. It is extremely easy to kidnap a soldier and the fact that Israel continues in the way it does makes kidnapping an obvious strategy of terrorists.
13,000+ prisoners given back has left us weakened so much that the only way back is a zero negotiation policy with terrorists. People are talking about a death penalty but that is skirting the hard but necessary steps that Israel must take for its security.
People need grow up and realize that it is not a black and white situation. Yes we are willing to go extremely far for even the bodies of our soldiers but not every time. Right now is the time to admit that we are stuck in an circle of terror that is becoming more and more costly and dangerous so sorry dear soldiers but if you are kidnapped your not coming back. Any mature soldier should understand that.
“The United States and other Western countries get around this by maintaining volunteer militaries whose members are loyal to a professional code, and with whom the public are largely unfamiliar except on a symbolic level.”
Wrong.
I see men and women in uniform every day. Lots of United States Army here in Texas. Makes me feel good.
The last stanza of the poem is what a nation should say in answer to such demands – not what England said then.
What the blazes do you think Kipling was writing about, except the disastrous course of English policy circa 1000 AD?
That was history with which Kipling was entirely familiar, of course, or he would not have written the poem.
Much more familiar than you are. Danegeld was paid only four times – in 994, 1002, 1007, and 1012. In 1015, King Svein of Denmark conquered England, and the “Danegeld” became an annual tax paid to the ruler, ending in 1051.
The claim that Danegeld was paid in the 11th century (by whom? Stephen of Blois? Henry II? Richard Coeur-de-Lion?) displays grotesque ignorance.
There is a proverb that it is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. There are many who ought to heed it, but clearly don’t.
The deal is to save every Israeli life, but also very tactical and calculated. Releasing so many Hamas murderers will be detrimental to Abbas and Fatah as they fight for control of the Palestinians. Their charter calls for killing every Jew and destroying Israel, so they cannot be negotiated with or given a state by the U.N. It is Abbas who pretends to want to live side by side with Israel (and is willing to delay its destruction) that is the West’s darling.
“Yet the question of how to adequately combine the modernity of outlook essential for social and economic success, with the communal commitment necessarily for societal survival remains a central and currently insufficiently unanswered one for Israel, on which the hopes of its enemies rest.”
You are correct in the diagnosis of the dilemma, except I don’t think it’s unique to Israel. The only difference between Israel and the West in this regard is that for you it is for now a theoretical question, so theoretical you don’t even recognize it has any relevance to you. The fact is that the model of absolute individualism is unsustainable exactly because it can’t withsatnd an external attack. The fact you’re currently don’t face a major external threat doesn’t change it. A completely atomized society can’t survive in the long term even without an external threat. And I don’t agree with your implied suggestion that communal commitment is opposed to modernity and certainly not to social and economic success – as long as it is balanced with a strong regard for the individual as well, it’s more likely to contribute to social success and not stand in the way of economic success.
I know that ‘collective’ is a foul word for American conservatives, yet paradoxically most of them are more patriotic than the left. The fact is that there are collectives, there are communities, ones smaller than the abstract ‘Humanity’ and bonded by shared language, culture, values, history and experience. There is your family, there is your town, there is your nation. What’s required, IMO, is a good balance between the principle of the individual and the principle of the collective or community, rather than take one of these principles to an extreme while completely annulling or delegitimizing the other. We saw what happens when the principle of the collective is taken to the extreme, whether in the communist form or the fascist form. Now we’re beginning to see what’s happening when individualism is taken to an extreme at the expense of the family, any duty to society (such as not committing crimes, which is the very basic duty to society, but today the criminal is considered a victim of society and even cool), the nation (which suddenly became a “racist” concept) and any other collective, except perhaps the very abstract ‘Humanity’. The results are growing loneliness, alienation and depression, higher suicide rates than in tribal societies, fertility rates that are too low to sustain the community, disregard for the past (as in history) or the future since they concern the collective much more than the individual and his/her short life span, lack of cohesion and solidarity, selfishness, and what increasingly looks more like disintegration, abandoning fundamental values (such as free speech) and growing chaos rather than diversity.
Israel is following the Western model and I really want us to stop. I don’t think you’re going towards a bigger and brighter future. I think you’re marching into the abyss, with Europe in the lead, the US following it and Israel limping behind (it’s kinda difficult to forget you are part of a collective when you’re surrounded with people who want to destroy you as a collective).
I think that psychologically people need both individual freedom and to belong to a collective they emotionally identify with. I think people will be most happy where there’s a good balance between them, though it always involves compromises (like everything else). Israel will have to learn that on its own since currently there’s no model for imitation. But at one point the West will have to learn it too, even though now it’s living under the illusion that such “primitive” concepts are a thing of the past.
Collectivism
Individualism
I never did study philosophy or read about it online. Rather I notice the effects of these ideologies from my window on the world.
I agree 100% with your take on both concepts, and that the ideal is the ideal balance..
(Didn’t the Maimonides say that?)
Pnina, your comments on this website are more interesting than any of the featured articles. Don’t stop!
A much as I disagree with Pnina on the prisoner swap, I’m inclined to agree with you Stan.
Personally, I think an Israeli life IS worth a 1000 Palis.
But I think this needs to be turned around – every time the Palis murder an Israeli, they should kill a 1000 Palis. They should try to get the murderer’s family and neighbors and any Pali leadership, PA or Hamas members they can hit, but after that, they shouldn’t bother discriminating at all. Just lay waste.
They should also cut off water and power to the Pali occupied areas, and not allow Palis into Israel for medical treatment.
Seriously though, do you really think that one Israeli is worth a 1000 Palestinians?
It all sounds like preschool talk. “My daddy is bigger than yours.”
Israelis respect all life including that of Palestinians and including the lives of terrorists who were caught or wounded. And if we ever instituted the death penalty it would respect the terrorists’ privacy and their bodies. Unlike those who killed Gaddafi.
This numbers game is pretty immature. For Israelis one life is sacred and there is no price that can be put on it. Gilad Shalit’s life isn’t worth 1027 terrorists. According to our heritage one person’s life is worth the whole world, i.e. Gilad’s life is worth much much more than the amount that was released.
The question is in practical terms what this means. There has to be some guidelines to the whole process and not some random sayings and popular quotes about the value of a Jewish life vs a Palestinian terrorist.
you are right. One Israeli life is not worth 1,0000 Palis. It is worth 1,027.
How many lines of what I wrote did you read.
7 lines down I wrote “Gilad Shalit’s life isn’t worth 1027 terrorists. According to our heritage one person’s life is worth the whole world, i.e. Gilad’s life is worth much much more than the amount that was released.”
I mean come on. When did we start thinking in code one line save the world plans and bumper sticker policies?.. Oh it’s when we started “parsing” the world’s intricacies with a facebook statuses.
Please think about it again one more time.
) Palestinians.
I mean it’s confusing for me toooo. Every where I look online, on blogs on facebook, I see this knee jerk reaction, “One Israeli is worth 10(27 for you Becky
Lets break it down logically.
Can you go around saying that Israelis lives are worth more than anyone else?
Isn’t that blatant racism.
Please note that I’m right wing as they come but I bass my ideology on common sense. A child is born in this world and he is worth to different people different amounts. At any time. To the Israeli government at this point in time where we have forgotten the pain of multiple suicide bombing every month and the press and the less mentioned President Obama and Leon Pannetta with his world changing plans of mainstreaming the Muslim Brotherhood are all hounding you (the Israelis government) to make concessions to the Hamas, (yes, I call this absurd deal concessions) then at such a point in time one Israeli soldier is worth 1027 Palestinians freedom. (Notice I said freedom and not life, because these Palis’ lives were never at stake.)
Moralizing this whole deal is absurd and immature. Making conclusions is so wrong and out of context…. I seriously don’t know where people are coming form anymore. Its emotional talk and that’s fine but people actually think this is all logic. (And then you get that ridiculous women in the UK Guardian who claims Bibi’s absurd racist deal with the Hamas is a travesty because he thinks that Israelis are worth more than Palestinians. ie. Bibi according to her told Hamas that he was only willing to pay a very high price for Shalit. http://calevbenyefuneh.blogspot.com/2011/10/fresnozionism-god-help-britain.html)
Yeah we value life. That the bottom line.
And the next moral principle is “your own before anyone else” so in such a case saving one Israeli for Israel should take precedence over one Palestinian.
I don’t know what my point is but all I know is this numbers game is wrong and will lead us down a sticky slope.
My apologies if this is cryptic. Even I didn’t understand what I wrote.
Also for the grammatical typos.
My excuse – I’m tired. Good Night.
Since the Israelis don’t behead prisoners, they have to do something to clean out their prisons once in a while.
Israeli Navy Seal from the “Shayetet 13″ by the name “Y” published a open letter on Facebook.
(My free translation from Hebrew.)
If, God forbid, I come to a situation in which a terror organization kidnaps me, I ask please from you: Don’t do demonstrations, don’t give interviews, don’t tell how much it hurts, don’t produce festivals and events in my name. Every amateur businessman knows – that’s not how you lower the price.
I’m not “everyones’ kid”. I’m a combat soldier who was taken prisoner.
Don’t turn me into a tool, I don’t want the whole world to know who I am and what my name is, when know one remembers the name of the soldier who died next to me. Don’t want the media to do a number on me, don’t want to be turned into a picked to pick at political agendas, power struggles and manipulations. Don’t want to be “the tribal bonfire” (literal translation) and the entrance door to Israeli consensus. I’m not prepared that the idea of my release turns into DOGMA (his words, caps) after which it’s forbidden to wonder. Don’t want them to shut the mouths of anyone brazen enough to think otherwise. Don’t want the media outlets use me for higher ratings, don’t want singers to make on me a ballad in order to substantiate their Google search output.
I am not a bottle of shampoo, don’t make a logo out of my photo, don’t add my face to your Facebook profile, don’t make a slogan out of my silhouette. Don’t high public relations companies to mold public opinion and those of decision makers. Don’t setup a creative staff, a optimization staff, a marketing staff, don’t setup an H.Q. don’t sit down to meeting with refreshments and slide shows, don’t have “brainstorming sessions” and don’t “make the public get swept away”, don’t build a marketing and market incursion budget (lit translation), don’t scribble down strategies and neatly slice up the population with cross-sections, graphs and tables. Don’t want an “panel of experts”, don’t want conventions, don’t want them to count the days I’ve sat and don’t want “contractors of depression” to make a career form my story.
Don’t make badges and flags and ties and shirts, don’t make marches and demonstrations and stand to sign up to on campuses.
It lower the chances of me getting out, it throws sand in the eyes if the decision makers. I’m not a reality show, don’t want them to come up and be photographed with my father at a time when they are letting out thousands of terrorists for me. Don’t want you to wave a blue and white flags at a time when the whole atmosphere is that of a white flag.
Don’t want to see a cold blooded murderer of sixteen people set free with a smile, slightly fatter then that time a few years earlier when he made to the families of his victims in their faces a V (me: with his fingers). Not prepared that hundreds of families who buried their babies will fume in anger and “be held in public” as “party ruiners”. I’m not prepared that a kid who went to eat pizza with his mother, father and three siblings – and came back alone, will watch as the murderer eats baklava in the victory tent (me: set up by his family for his release from jail) 20 kilometers away form him. Don’t want murderers released in East Jerusalem to ride the light rail train together with my niece. Don’t want families that the whole world came tumbling down upon them, will hear in the newspaper that that guy who murdered their child has been released to Club Med. in Turkey. Don’t want their pain to get an eighth of a column next to the sports section, because it’s more correct from a “reporting perspective”.
They already know that the blood of their sons is cheap, no need to stand on their hearts and make a ‘kvetch’ (his words). It really pacifies me that the President “..pardons but doesn’t forgive” (sarcastic).
Don’t want the next Intifada to be called after me.
“Y”, a combat soldier in “Shayetet”
Me: That my freinds is real Israeli compassion.
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/298669_299912700018783_192566467420074_1270476_535141432_n.jpg
I get it now, thank you.
Specially illuminating that part of “It lower the chances of me getting out, it throws sand in the eyes of the decision makers”, and also “Every amateur businessman knows – that’s not how you lower the price”.
Therefore, all this mess is in part the product of the, perhaps well intentioned but strategically bad, campaign to free Shalit by their own family and the always meddling press.