Protecting FLDS Children: The Right Thing to Do
This is America, and people have the right to believe whatever they wish, to wear prairie frocks and think Sephora is Satan, or to follow some kook who calls himself the messiah. But when such groups wind up hurting others, then they’ve crossed the threshold of getting to operate with impunity and without prying eyes.
So with that acknowledgment, can we stop calling the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints an “alternative lifestyle” already?
In today’s anything-goes culture, the term “cult” is shunned for the innocuous “new religious movements,” lest we get into the bothersome habit of actually calling a spade a spade. When mind control and fear are employed to dehumanize members and make them bend to the will of a powerful one or few, that is a cult — whether they’re drinking the Kool-Aid, holing up for Armageddon, or marrying assigned strangers 30,000 at a time. When turning men and women into vacuous, unquestioning shells of who they once were, members and children get hurt.
And we shouldn’t be afraid to call a cult as it is.
“They’re all the same, really, these groups — they prey on the most lonely, vulnerable people they can find, cage you with your own mind through guilt and fear, cut you off from everyone you knew before, and when they’re done doing that, they don’t need armed guards to keep you,” the late Nobel-nominated psychologist Margaret Singer, who wrote Cults in Our Midst, once told the San Francisco Chronicle. “You’re afraid that if you leave, your parents will die, you will die, your life will be ruined.
“…A real religion is truthful, you can come or go from it if you wish,” she added. “And most importantly, there is no one leader claiming he is a god. Big, big difference.”
Amen to that.
And when a child is being raised in this environment, being told that betraying the group is a guaranteed ticket to Hell, how many chances do you think he or she will get to cry out for help?
“It is crucial to understand that behavior is the issue and not belief,” Rick Ross, a cult expert and exit counselor, explains on his extensive Web database. “When those concerned about someone’s group involvement find clearly destructive behavior, this is an issue for legitimate concern.”
Those condemning the raid and seizure of the Eldorado compound’s children into protective custody may be pleased to remember that there is powerful precedent for Texas authorities to have believed the “hoax” call: the conviction of FLDS “President and Prophet, Seer and Revelator” Warren Jeffs for marrying a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old cousin (the girl was brave enough to testify; the husband is now facing rape charges for allegedly forcing her to have sex). Three of Jeffs’ nephews have claimed they were sexually abused, one saying that Jeffs sodomized him when he was only 5 or 6 years old. Jeffs faces more charges in Arizona of forcing underage girls to marry older men.
And on Thursday, Texas authorities showed up to that Arizona jail where Jeffs is awaiting trial to take DNA samples in connection with allegations that Jeffs had “spiritual marriages” to four girls from ages 12 to 15. This after a disturbing “anniversary” photo was entered into evidence by Texas officials — in a separate case, one stemming from the ranch raid — showing Jeffs kissing a girl alleged to be about 12.
Texas would have been blind to not recognize there was an established pattern of abuse within this sect, and had the responsibility to exert the greatest of care in protecting the kids during their investigation.
Consider the cases of the “Lost Boys,” hundreds of teens as young as 13, according to a 2005 Boston Globe story quoting authorities in Utah and Arizona, pushed out of the FLDS to fend for themselves — and to reduce competition for the older men seeking a multitude of young wives. Parents aren’t allowed contact with the boys, and many willingly, completely disown the cast-outs.
One teen thrown out on the street at age 15 told the Globe that he tried to appeal his expulsion to Jeffs: “He told me I wasn’t welcome. And on the way out he said: ‘Just to let you know, when the final devastation comes, you will be destroyed.’ I believed it completely. If you are told your whole life the Earth is flat, what else would you believe?” Another turned-away teen told of being spurned by his mom when he tried to visit her on Mother’s Day.
In the compound raid case, one only had to turn on the television to witness the carefully scripted appeals from the FLDS parents for the state to release the children, the parroted responses and the slick attorneys hired to raise the specter of religious persecution over and over, while the youngest and most vulnerable members are condemned to silence.
When dealing with groups believing in the righteousness of “heavenly deception” — as former followers of Sun Myung Moon have termed his doctrine on lies being acceptable to achieve his ends — to trick followers into giving up their meager fortunes and their families, protecting the vulnerable becomes all that more difficult. Likewise, The Family International – first the Children of God, then The Family, a cult beset by allegations of abuse, even by the late River Phoenix — reportedly believes in the “deceivers yet true” doctrine whereby it’s OK to lie to an “unbeliever” to meet God’s (read: the group leader’s) goals.
Sending kids back into the same situation — while giving the cult a sense of empowerment that God is indeed on their side, no matter what they do to their children — is both frightening and irresponsible, but it seems that Texas courts think they’re just looking at the “alternative lifestyle” of a “new religious movement.”
It’s easy to point the finger at Child Protective Services for separating FLDS kids from parents, but pause to consider those who wish that, as children, someone had taken enough notice to remove them from an abusive home — before conducting the investigation that would just incite fury in a guilty parent, causing a painful backlash.
And when a closely guarded compound operates on a non-negotiable system of cultic groupthink, you’d better protect all those kids until you know the full story.
Consider the FLDS mothers who didn’t want their boys anymore — just because the leader told them so.
A good point is made here, but from where I stand the point that was made to me is that the state of Texas needs to follow the same Constitution and Bill of Rights the rest of the country follows otherwise one day we will wake up in a democratic society that believes the allegations of a couple are enough to arrest, hold and imprison people who do not agree with the “current” view of the government. If memory serves me right the biggest reason for writing down the Constitution and Bill of Rights was to show our country was governed by rule of law instead of rule by decree.
Yeah! Let’s here it for the Nanny State! CPS Rules!!!!!!
Look closely and we may catch a glimpse of how the Nazi’s took over Germany.
Did you ever stop to think that CPS is a prime example of big government run wild? They certainly were off the hook on this one, weren’t they? I wonder how many other families have been ripped apart without the media attention (pajama’d or otherwise)? This is MY tax dollars hard at work? I think I want my money back.
So allowing kids to live in dangerous conditions where underage girls might become impregnated by older men should result in CPS taking those children into custody? Interesting… when do the child purges of our inner cities begin then? And how many ghetto kids will you be fostering?
greywar: I’m not saying that the ghetto is a great place – God knows it’s not – but residents don’t have to fight active brainwashing to leave it and make a better life for themselves. There’s a HUGE difference between a cult and a bad situation.
the judge in this case is heroic. domestically and in our foreign policy, we have become ant farmers. Literally reproducing Animal Farm, of course all for our own common good.
it is time to let people live as they wish until a clear case of assault, theft or fraud is evident. indeed, if there was evidence, the children would not have been released. a pox on do gooders and ant farmers.
This is simple religious bigotry. There has been no showing of probable cause that any crime has been committed. Ms. Catalano apparently has a blind spot not only in history but in fundamental due process. There are many forms of coupling I detest, including this one, but the fact that I find them repulsive does not make them criminal.
Maybe we should separate Ms. Catalano from her family while we investigate any potential and inchoate crimes somewhere near her, whether committed by her or someone else. I suppose she would approve of burning or drowning witches and fully supports Tomás de Torquemada.
After all, look at her guiding principle: “And when a closely guarded compound operates on a non-negotiable system of cultic groupthink, you’d better protect all those kids until you know the full story.” Here comes the Vatican. Duck.
…the Texas Supreme Court officially confirmed that Texas CPS bureaucrats acted far outside the law, in what would be clear felonies if conducted by any private citizen(s).
Persons who act outside the law are ‘outlaws’ in Texas, and just criminals elsewhere.
Of course, some criminals somehow have automatic immunity from prosecution.
No, Bridget, It is not ‘irresponsible’ to give children back to their parents – because those children are NOT the government’s responsibility.
These children are the responsibility of their parents. So long as the parents are not proven to be criminal, the state should not act in loco parentis. At least not in the America intended for us by the Founding Fathers.
There are plenty of places in the world where children are presumed first to be the responsibility of the state. I think history has proven that America has chosen the better path – despite the exceptional cases that make us uncomfortable at times.
Freedom doesn’t really mean anything unless we have the right to be wrong.
Mark, I think you have me confused with the author of this piece. In my article, I defended the appeal court’s decision to give the children back.
Michelle, I appoligize. You are correct and I am wrong. In all my cutting a pasting, I wronged you. Thank you for correcting me.
I think it is fine to return the children at this point.
The state has the DNA samples.
Michelle, I have made a serious mistake. In my cutting and pasting I used your name instead of Ms. Johnson. I owe you an apology and I regret any confusion I may have caused. I’m apparently as sloppy as the Texas authorities. Again, I am sorry for the error.
Texas CPS is right to try to stop the use of just-post-pubescent girls as breeding stock/harem for middle-aged men, but whenever government agents seize anyone’s children by force, they have to do so within the law. That’s what the Texas appeals court said, and they were right.
Michelle, I have made a serious mistake. In my cutting and pasting I used your name instead of Ms. Johnson. I owe you an apology and I regret any confusion I may have caused. I’m apparently as sloppy as the Texas authorities. Again, I am sorry for the error.
(This is my second attempt to publish the apology.)
I mean….i gree with the courts that there is no immediate risk at this point.
The removal of the children has shaped the way the cult will act towards them in the near future at least.
The sect has come under fierce scrutiny.
There won’t be any abuse for a while.
[i]When mind control and fear are employed to dehumanize members and make them bend to the will of a powerful one or few, that is a cult — whether they’re drinking the Kool-Aid, holing up for Armageddon, or marrying assigned strangers 30,000 at a time. When turning men and women into vacuous, unquestioning shells of who they once were, members and children get hurt.[/i]
So we can expect the authorities to batter down Tom Cruise’s door in an effort to rescue Katie Holmes?
Meh.
I think the CPS believed they were operating within the law.
There were 3 dissenters on the deciding court.
Mark, it’s ok.
Bridget, while it is irresponsible to raise your children in such an environment, it is not the state’s job to take your children away for your irresponsibility. If that were the case, there would be millions of kids being taken from their homes today.
I don’t condone underage marriage and all that comes with it in that sect, but I certainly don’t condone a state agency running roughshod over laws because of something they think might have happened or will happen. Would you want them to behave that way for all citizens? Just a little hearsay that you might have slapped your kid too hard, and CPS will be at your house, taking your child away without any proof.
They will sort this out legally. If they have DNA evidence, then the rightful parties will be held responsible. Until then, we have to let this be handled within the proper parameters of the law. If due process is allowed to be ignored, then we will all suffer.
I guess I missed the part where polygamy became the law of the land. Why are these parents still walking around as free as the proverbial birds?
None of this case made good sense to me. These people, (adult men and women), were busted practicing multiple marriage. As sorry as I feel for the innocent children, the parents ought to be in jail. Religious freedom be damned in this case.
I can’t believe no one else here has said this, but I guess I will: The crime under investigation was being committed not by the children, but by their fathers. The Texas authorities should have arrested the men and left the women and children safe in their homes! Then they could have conducted their criminal investigation without traumatizing those poor children by removing them from the only home they knew. Having concluded that, they could have arraigned those men who were culpable (and any complicit women – I’m not saying all the women were necessarily blameless) and not punished the children for a situation not their fault.
michele, there is ample evidence that the FLDS parasitize and exploit our system of government.
Isn’t it fair for Texas to attempt to defend itself with what the state believes are legal means?
Addendum: I don’t want my remarks to be taken as man-bashing. The specific crime (i.e. grown man on underage girl), which is a felony — please forgive the circumlocution, as I don’t want to trip any bad-language filters — was committed by the men in the case. As for the crime of polygamy, it seems to me that a polygamous man and each of his wives would be equally guilty of such crime, although I don’t know what the law actually states.
michele, if there were 3 dissenters in the opinion of the superior court, that is hardly running roughshod.
These people, (adult men and women), were busted practicing multiple marriage.
There were no marriage certificates provided, hence no evidence of multiple marriages. Also, many of the ‘marriages’ were called “spiritual marriages” and not legally binding, therefore it is not legally polygamy.
And this is the whole problem with the case. The sect went to great pains to make sure there was no evidence present that could warrant the removal of the children. Yet, the children were removed anyhow.
Michele said: “Also, many of the ‘marriages’ were called ‘spiritual marriages’ and not legally binding, therefore it is not legally polygamy.”
Nah, just statuatory rape. Is that OK?
What I think people fail to see is the CPS actually won! The CPS got everything, and I mean everything they wanted and could possibly have hoped for before the raid.
1. They get to verify the parents of each child (not possible before)
2. They get to limit the travel of the children instead of allowing them to be shuffled out of state.
3. They get access to the children, including transporting them to interviews.
3. They get access to the ranch.
4.They get the cooperation of the mothers in any criminal investigation.
Before April 3, do you think the folks of Schleicher County could make the FLDS feel any more unwelcome?
It will be interesting to see how much this is going to cost the county and state in legal expenses and lawsuits, But they got what they wanted, now let’s see if they are going to be happy with the bill.
Please read the book “Under the Banner of God” if you think this is no big deal. The Fundamentist Mormons are a sick bunch. Girls as young as 12 are forced into marrying men in their 40′s and 50′s. Raped, beaten and mentality abused. Teenage boys are taken out and left on their own so they do not compete with the older men. The girl that made the call, if she exists was probably found out and traded to some other group. They have the women apply for welfare as single mothers so they can ‘Bleed the Beast’. The Jeff’s clan is a big part of this and those born into this sick group cannot escape without fear for their lives.
I think any girl or boy older than 10 should have been taken until the investigation is complete. I watched the women on Larry King and the all appeared to be brainwashed. I find it interesting that few news organizations has actually reported that the state had found that 5 of the teenager girls had been abused. I agree with the article, it’s all a part of the “Let’s not judge, its all cool, live and let live”. Well that’s easy to say when you are not one of the innocent trapped on the inside.
Nah, just statuatory rape. Is that OK?
No, it’s not ok. But there needs to be proof. And why not just take the pregnant girls and the ones who have given birth instead of ALL the kids, especially the nursing infants?
Among those practices that remain illegal and almost uniformly ignored are still those found in the lyrics to one of the songs from the 1968 Broadway show, Hair:
Sodomy
Fellatio
Cunnilingus
Pederasty
Father, why do these words sound so nasty?
This case is not about any violation of any law. There was, get this straight, no evidence of a crime. Oddly, in this funny little country, we require evidence. Not just feelings (a bad song).
The sect went to great pains to make sure there was no evidence present that could warrant the removal of the children. Yet, the children were removed anyhow.
yup, for long enough to do the DNA testing.
michele, why do you suppose CPS ordered DNA testing for all the children?
Bridget,
Crystal clear spot on description of the failure of our laws to protect the weakest among us. Failure of laws that instead protect, under the insidious veil of religion, the rights of abusers. Failure of many Americans who don’t get it – don’t see the damage – then scream “freedom” all at the expense of children.
Don’t be discouraged by the vast number of the same men commenters who in every PajamasMedia articles in which women are protrayed as “getting away with something” seem to enjoy this sort of “cultism,” who probably secretly drool with envy of the brilliance of Jeffs to pull off so successfully, a culture of religious freedom to child rape and subjugate females. Also I wonder if the women commenters who cry “oh but the mother’s!!!!” seem to realize that crying over the mothers, in fact, send these kids back to the abuse. Who cares right? They’re only kids.
For one, let’s call the male leaders of such Cults what they really are, misogonists. Let’s secondly call the men who come into such cults knowingly what they really are, pedophiles. Thirdly, for the sake of calling a spade, a spade, this IS a cult and not a religion (as you’ve articulated so rightly the difference – void of messiahs tooling around in red escalades and raping 12 year olds) whose sole MO is one in which indoctrination of pre-pubescent girls starts at an early age. And what is this indoctrination? their sexual servitude to adult males, not marriage, just sex and impregnation, at the time of puberty.
Also correct is your description of the women, brought up through the ranks as “shells,” void of thoughts of their own, living in seritude and afraid to question, taught to lie when asked their age or the ages of their children to protect, not their own childre from predators but the men who prey on them.
Wonderful article Bridget and I’m happy to see a “flip-side” to the previous article by another on the same subject. Thanks for speaking out in opposition.
John you are right, notice that in the case of these “EVIL” polygamists there has yet to be one single criminal charge filed against any of them, there was only one warrant filed in the case, on a man who was in jail in Arizona at the time, something the state of Texas knew.
You must first determine IF a “spiritual marriage” is recognized as a legal marriage contract in a court of law, in the state of Texas its not, that out of the way what about all the low life scum who father 4 or 5 children from different women, does CPS need to go detain the hundreds of thousands of men and take those kids away from their mothers because someday they may repeat the cycle. Whats next on the moral agenda then??
Polygamy is nothing new, we have seen many recent stories in the news from Utah and Arizona involving this same group of people and all the state of Texas can do is trample on the Bill of Rights like it is a piece of used toilet paper??
My biggest problem with this Texas case is the state did not follow any of the established laws of either the state of TX or of our Constitution when they “invaded” the private property of the FLDS without cause, broke down many doors, ransacked many rooms, hauled off many pieces of evidence and separated children from their parents. Under Texas law, children can be taken from their parents if there’s a danger to their physical safety, an urgent need for protection and if officials made a reasonable effort to keep the children in their homes. None of which was done by the state. FYI the last child removed from parental custody was taken by the state almost 30 days after the “raid” from the hospital just hours after birth.
What ever happened to the Fourth Amendment, you know the one that ensures protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
That said if the Fourth Amendment is no longer valid then why not get rid of all the other pesky Amendments as well and then we can make our laws the same way they are made in the democratic country of Venezuela under the “democratically” elected Hugo Chavez or would you rather our laws were made the same way they are by the “democratically” elected government of Iran.
oooh
Foxnews reposts Warren Jeffs just got swabbed for DNA.
protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
Texas will argue that it was not unreasonable search and seizure.
3 of the 6 judges on the higher court concur.
Texas will argue that the judge issuing the warrants held a “sincere belief” that general law was violated.
“The ambiguity of current Texas law has allowed for alleged crimes to be committed under the practice of religious freedom. Allegations including, but not limited to, practices of bigamy, polygamy, child abuse, incest, domestic violence, child endangerment, denial of equal education services or opportunities, election and welfare fraud are rampant in these religious sects, also known as “The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
“The U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled that while the government may not restrict religious beliefs, they may restrict religious practices. The court has said that no religious actions may violate general laws. Underage marriage, parental consent, education issues, and election fraud are all general laws. . . “
“…why do you suppose CPS ordered DNA testing for all the children?”
Why is CPS empowered to “order” DNA extraction, and recording to a data base, for all the children? Naturally, across the board DNA “printing”, for all the mothers and alleged fathers, will follow.
This does NOT bode well.
Where’s the subpoena/ warrant for the alleged
“mystery” hoax tipster? Is she now roomies with that nice girl of Duke University fame?
When agents of the gum’mint break the clearly defined the laws put fourth by the gum’mint, they are no longer entitled to ANY assumption of “special protections and exceptions” by the gum’mint.
Our founding fathers offered a remedy for just such a dilemma, right from the get-go.
3 of the nine, sry.
FOXnews reports the negotiations have just fallen appart.
the lawyers for the FLDS will have to file new appeals on monday.
Captn, read my post above.
If this was a slam dunk, there would have been no dissenters on the Texas supreme court.
I limned the argument Texas will use.
And, according to Volkh’s commenters, in the US it doesnt matter how the DNA was acquired. It can be used, just like fingerprints.
What if some of the children’s DNA matches up with Jeffs?
Most of the children’s surnames are either Jessop or Jeffs.
The entire premise (and laws of gov’t protection) of living under the banner of religious freedom needs investigation and change. When “religious” practices are in clear conflict and opposition with state and federal laws (that secular citizens must obey) then that needs a huge re-thinking of said laws. Especially where it affects minors,
It’s always children who suffer under the hands of mentally deficient adults who are permitted to get away with it. Does this country care about kids, or does it not?
We should be ashamed that such abominations happen. Apparently the mentally ill can dream up any “religion” proclaim themseves Prophet and get away with murder, as was the case of Cults who deny their children proper medical care which will prevent suffering and save their very lives, due to some ridiculous ideology and the religious freedom banner.
It is past time these laws that protect these sociopaths be changed.
All those parents getting their kids back ought to be viewed as “flight risks.” It’s happened before and it will happen in the future. They change names and poof – vanish.
I hope provisions that they must not leave the premises have been considered thoroughly.
michele, these photos were provided to the court by texas authorities.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Court_photos_show_FLDS_leader_Warren_Jeffs_with_child_brides
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/27/warren-jeffs-kissing-and_n_103805.html?view=print
What if the girls in those pictures are now some of the FLDS zombiemommies?
I guess we know why the court ordered DNA samples.
I hate polygamy but I love the constitution much more than I hate polygamy. There is much to prosecute in the FLDS culture and it needs to be prosecuted. Abandonment of boys, sexual abuse of pubescent girls, possible sexual molestation of children, welfare fraud (every polygamist woman knows who fathered her children) etc.. The government has the tools to go after the perpetrators of these crimes.
But the government has no blanket authority to change someone’s ideology or beliefs. What Texas did is truly scary and it must be vituperated and resisted.
Janet Reno had the right idea. Burn everyone, then there’s no embarrassing court ruling.
Guilty until proven innocent, yeah, an obama dream come true.
SNAG IN DEAL TO RETURN TEXAS SECT KIDS TO PARENTS
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D910ANPO1&show_article=1
Glad to see the caveats to this new ruling to allow SOME of the children back with some mothers.
Included in the conditions:
1. parents must show identification and sign personally.
2. restriction of travel outside the compound.
3. parents must start taking “parenting classes.”
4. CPS to have access to the ranch and the children at all times necessary for any investigation.
These conditions are a good start.
Ok Yes awful…yes I care about kids, but how about lesbian women having children (naturally or by insemination) how about lesbian and gay couples adopting children? How about the problems of teen mothers and having multiple children with multiple fathers that the children never even know? Do any of these parents love their children less than we do? Can anyone really define and never trepass that ideal? Are we really capable of running the world by laws alone? I am currently living in an European country and there are no laws protecting you from illegal searches and seizures…the police may stop anyone at anytime and ask for their identification, legal papers and search their car in case you have something illegal. I understand the arguement “yes but if you’ve done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear” … who amoung us has never done anything wrong? Who amoung us has never ever been falsely accused? Slippery slope people>>>
There is just one story of importance here…a phony call from a known scam artist launched a raid on peaceful, unarmed people by government thugs carrying machine guns. Children were ripped from their parents and carted off with no “due process”. This goes beyond disgraceful. It is a scary abuse of power by a govt which continues to grow out of control. Yours might just be the next door these people break down on the basis of total misinformation. And the fact that the MSM dove directly into the government tank, no questions asked, is even more frightening. Want any more reasons to buy a gun?
Griefer, gee, ask the esteemed commenter’s at Volkh Con. THIS
Have the esteemed members of the Texas (or any) State SC ever been overturned as simply wrong, on Constitutional grounds?
..in their persons and papers…
Is medical privacy to be tossed aside? Let’s revisit Roe v. Wade. I suppose the weasel word
“reasonable” comes into play.
Of course, the fourth may be, and has been, creatively re-interpreted by esteemed members of assorted judicial pundits, to meet modern challanges presented to appointed authorities bestowed with the right to use force upon the citizenry.
While admittedly more reliable than say, Wikipedia, Volkh’s comments are quite often contaminated with argument for the sake of debate sport.
Dang I wish there was preview!
I also see NO evidence that “The State of Texas” (and let’s just narrow that down to specific CPS officers in charge shall we?) believed they were acting within the boundaries of the law in their actions.
No “slam dunk”, in the OTHER direction, by their own Supreme Court, is evidence enough for that.
I suppose the adage “It’s far simpler to get forgiveness than permission” hasn’t been lost to the ages.
CPS Agents In Charge are to be weighed and measured,WITHOUT IMMUNITY, for clearly abusing a disingenuously imagined gray area if public confidence in “The State” is to be sustained.
If you are a parent who complies with the “scripture” of a pedophile “Prophet” to give your 12 year girls away to middle-aged men for sex and reproduction – NO, you DON’T care about children, YOURS or anyone elses.
If you are a parent who so easily complies with pedophile “Prophet” to dump your young teen sons on a highway because he is seen as “competition” for the older men in the child-bride sexual henhouse then NO you do not care about children, YOURS or anyone elses.
If you lie to authorities about the surnames and ages of your children to protect the pedophile men of your commune, then NO, you do not care about children. Yours or anyone elses.
If you consent to splitting your family and children up to be sent to different “sex farms” because one “sex farm” hasn’t enough child brides to satisfy the men of the farm, then NO – you do not care about children, YOURS or anyone elses.
THIS is the ugly face of FLDS Cultism, portrayed time and time again by people who have chosen to escape. This is the ugly face of FLDS cultism that Jeffs built as his sexual utopia with childern for which he sits – rightfully – behind bars.
There isn’t one instance where another banded group of cult-minded people people outside of NAMBLA and Muslim Sharia, neither of which can exist LEGALLY in this country. Both of whose “scripture” is at glaring odds with the laws or our land. Whose purpose for forming is to subjugate minor boys for the pleasure of elder men or subjugate one sex(women) for the benefit of another – respectively.
Having said that, I see no reason NOT to add the FLDS’ to these insidious groups and ban them completely from any state or federal protection.
related case.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5803869.html
why take DNA unless it it going to be used for something?
Unbounded glee about obtaining DNA may be unwarranted. Literally. Motions to suppress materials and information obtained during a flawed process are often successful.
I’m quite in agreement with transcende’s comments above. In these cases of child molesters and cult masters, (often they are one and the same), summary firing squads comes to mind.
not for DNA.
Volokhs commenters said DNA can be used however it obtained, like fingerprints.
there are no motions to supress evidence yet…it seems like in the Jessop case i just i just cited if Dan Jessop could have suppressed the pictures of Jeffs and his child brides, or supressed the testimony of the eight underaged girls (including Jessops sister) wouldn’t the FLDS lawyers have done that instead of agreein to the CPS keeping custody of Jessops baby?
Transcended, here is the problem with your last post and I believe it is the basis for all the discussion here.
IF
Yes, IF the state of Texas had followed the laws of the state of Texas and IF the state of Texas had followed the laws of our country as laid down for all to read in our Constitution and Bill of Rights before they started out that day in April, and IF they had found ANY EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING, then nobody here would be appalled at the states actions or supportive of the members of the FLDS.
James, Texas is following the law.
In 2005, Texas began legislation to allow prosecution of cults operating under the guise of religious freedom to violate general law.
http://soretoesandableedingheart.blogspot.com/2008/05/studying-change-of-texas-law.html
typical of the government is the attitude “we’re here to protect the children” as if that is mentioned anywhere in the constitution.
i for one don’t believe a word of the texas authorities. texan’s have been known to be liars and incompetents just like regular americans.
James,
I think all the evidence that put Jeffs, who acted as chief enforcer of religious pedophilia scripture reguarding forced and arranged “spiritual marriages” (rape) in Utah, not to mention his own “marriages” with 12 years old, is evidence enough to start with. Add to that the evidence and testimony of the lost-boys and those who’ve escaped or been exiled from FLDS cults. Put all together, these all raise enough red flags that warranted further investigation by law enforcement that wasn’t either bought out by Jeffs or already entrenced within the culture of pedophila within the cult compound.
The pleasure of hiding deviant and abusive behaviour with minors behind the veil of religious freedom in this country has to be put to a stop in this country. Wouldn’t you agree?
The best way to protect children is through transparency.
They are following a set of laws that were passed in 2005 that specifically target the FLDS, who first arrived in Texas in 2003 you are correct.
But as the article you link to reads,
Texas HB3006 was introduced by Rep. Harvey Hilderbran on behalf his constituents in Eldorado and Schleicher county, Texas.
“The ambiguity of current Texas law has allowed for alleged crimes to be committed under the practice of religious freedom. Allegations including, but not limited to, practices of bigamy, polygamy, child abuse, incest, domestic violence, child endangerment, denial of equal education services or opportunities, election and welfare fraud are rampant in these religious sects, also known as “The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
whereas,
“The U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled that while the government may not restrict religious beliefs, they may restrict religious practices. The court has said that no religious actions may violate general laws. Underage marriage, parental consent, education issues, and election fraud are all general laws. . . ”
and
“There is no actual evidence that this group is doing any of the things accused by local residents. Texas should not endorse laws aimed at one specific group lawfully practicing its religious beliefs.”
Additionally Judge Barbara Walthers is the district judge from that area and most likely would have provided some input to Rep. Harvey Hilderbran while he drafted the bill. As I lived (for 35 years) in TX during the time this bill was drafted I do not know for sure this happened but it does seem to me that you would want a legal opinion on what you were drafting before you sent it to the Legislature. IF this did happen, then her involvement in this case today should be looked at as a conflict of interest.
Also IF as you say the state of Texas is following the law, WHY did 2 different courts in the state of Texas say the states CPS “overstepped their authority” and must return the children to their parents??
There is much more going on in this case than has been discussed in the media and my perspective is our Country is supposed to be governed by rule of law and so far I haven’t seen Texas playing by the rules and that bothers me.
To date through 3 court hearings the state of Texas has not provided a single piece of evidence that anyone has broken a single law, yet they have taken 463 children away from their parents.
FYI one of the 35 “underage children” the state took into custody was 27 and another was 22, both who had valid state issued birth certificates and driver license.
I don’t agree with the FLDS, I have a teenage daughter and a 2 yo daughter myself, but I’m not ready to throw away the Constitution and Bill of Rights because of a few unproven statements and a fraudulent phone call.
You want to change my mind, show me some evidence that any of these people have committed a crime instead of showing me a Strawman Argument.
What of the remainding33 children? What of the cult’s Doctor’s records on births? All these things have to be looked at. This case is long from over. Jeff’s himself will be facing more charges to the already lenghty charges he has yet to go on trial for.
The last word on DNA investigating paternity of these children is not yet in.
The parents have been restricted with movement inside or outside Texas.
The Judge wants the CPS to have unfettered access to the children for further investigation as warranted.
This will continue to be an ongoing open case until all the information, names, ages, who belongs to whom questions are answered satisfactorily.
At the end of the day, I am betting this cult and those like it will be either banned from practicing or laws affecting such freedoms will be tightened. Either way, it’ll be good for children.
Transended you say “The best way to protect children is through transparency”.
All I can say to you is transparency should be expected as well from the Government in enforcing the law. IF anyone has committed a crime, charge them, try them and if FOUND GUILTY!!!, prosecute them. So far in THIS CASE, this has not been done. Right now the state of Texas is using a Straw man Argument to make their case in the media.
The court has said that no religious actions may violate general laws. Underage marriage, parental consent, education issues, and election fraud are all general laws. . .
google Texas law HB3600.
Texas is targetting GENERAL LAW VIOLATIONS.
The 22 year old just lost custody in this case in this case on Friday.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5803869.html
The 22 year old just lost custody of her baby to CPS in this case on friday
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5803869.html
there is no arguemnt from the courts about whether crimes were committed.
only about whether the children were at risk from the criminals.
read Beldar.
He’s a texican too.
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2008/05/beldar-on-volok.html
and ……the Jessops agreed to give custody of the baby to CPS so that the court would not hear testimony from 8 underaged girls about abuse.
one of the girls is Dan Jessops younger sister and is the little redheaded girl in the smoking gun pictures.
which, btw, were introduced as evidence of systemic abuse in the Jessop vs CPS trial that was concluded friday.
Watching this case unfold is like watching a malpractice lawyer duke it out with a used car salesman. They’re both so scummy, you don’t know who to root for. I feel like showering every time I realize that I have to support the FLDS in this case.
Years ago, before I had children, I watched the Frontline documentary about CPS and was absolutely appalled. This is an organization that is 99% bureaucracy and 1% caring about actual kids, petty tyrants who care more about exercising power than they do about destroying families. I live in fear that one day CPS will come knocking on my door and decide that my house isn’t clean enough and take my kids away. I have fibromyalgia and two of my kids have Asperger’s, but I can’t get respite care because they’re not mentally retarded.
So if Warren Jeffs were to drop the soap in prison, I’d be thrilled. But if CPS gets their peepee slapped badly enough that they start backing off their little bureaucratic crusade to control all the children in the country, I’d be even more thrilled.
why can’t i comment? how can i refute argument?
FYI one of the 35 “underage children” the state took into custody was 27 and another was 22, both who had valid state issued birth certificates and driver license.
the 22 yr old just gave her child over to CPS custody, btw.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5803869.html
Can you be legally married to multiple partners (since “spiritual marriages” aren’t legally binding) when polygamy is illegal to begin with?
If the government can use fingerprint evidence regardless of how such information is obtained, then it would be inevitable that a large group of people, say for example all of the residents of a Texas county — you know, the one you live in, could be rounded up and fingerprinted to clear a whole bunch of cold cases. Not to mention how useful all those fingerprints would be in future cases as well. Good grief; what a recipe for abuse.
think about it.
Dan Jessops agreed to let CPS keep his baby rather than have his little sister and her underaged friends testify about institutionalized child rape at YFZ.
What does that suggest?
these people don’t deserve their children, sorry.
however bad CPS is they are better than that.
Absurd … please use reason … innocent until proven guilty is the standard … your feelings are not the judge and jury
dude!
jessop GAVE custody to the CPS rather than have the court hear what what his own sister was going to say!
isn’t that what protective custody is all about???????
James
Transparency by the Government and CPS has been transparent by their constant contact with the media. Their activities have also been made transparent by attorneys representing parents and FLDS. What HASN’t been made transparent are the secretive practices of the FLDS cults whose leader resides in jail for coercing minors into sex with adult male members. WHat hasen’t been made transparent are the men who’ve father the children of the girls there or the girls rightfull surnames and ages, as well as allegations of other abuses of children and government.
Such is the job of both government and CPS. Innocent until proven guilty yes, however, in order to prove innocence or guilty, evidence is needed. The government and CPS have been thwarted at every path. It’s only just started.
You keep claiming “straw-man,” although I don’t see one. How many probable-cause reasons for investigating allegations of pedophilia would you need? There are already many, not the least of which are the survivors of this cult and the 14 year old who brought evidence as to the practices within FLDS that brought Jeffs down.
Substitute “Muslim” for “FLDS” in this article and these comments and see how loudly griefer screams.
Hey Mark – is this Grace’s dad?
Anyway, I agree with you and I have agreed with Michelle on her posting that the law is uppermost.
I notice, however, that some of the posters have changed their tune, eh griefer?
Most of us do not support the flds, not their hair, not their clothes, certainly not their religion, but what the cps has done to the families and to the children is criminal. I hope they sue texas for every last cent and get the judge kicked off the bench.
tah, won’t happen.
read beldar for a sanity transfusion.
if there are amerimuslims practicing child rape and childfakemarriage, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
just like the mormon patriarchy daddies will be.
please note: No court has made bill of attainder or due process argument for returning the children.
the court stated NOT that no crime had been committed, but that the response was too draconian, and the CPS had not demostrated sufficent risk from their home environment to remove all the children.
Never did the court state there was NO risk, only that ir was minimal.
FYI, i doubt the underage girls mentioned here will ever be returned to FLDS custody.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700229646,00.html?pg=3
What a crock. Both the court of appeals and the Texas Supreme Court say these kids were ILLEGALLY removed from their parents, and the judge who first allowed them to be kidnapped is now trying to dictate the terms of giving them back.
What is this country coming to?
This reminds me greatly of the Wenatchee Washington fiasco http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_sex_ring
There was a call that was a HOAX from someone who has mades similar hoax calls in the past and charitably is sick (claimed multiple personality disorder)
That was NEVER adequate justification to violate Texas law and common decency by removing these kids. If there exists other evidence that abuse is or has occurred, the Texas CPS should have produced it. There have now been four court hearings where they have failed to do so.
I hate to be the one who has to bring the real world to this blogger, but a MILLION teens are going to become pregnant this year….half of them 17 years of age or LESS http://www.coolnurse.com/teen_pregnancy_rates.htm
and if we are looking at groups at risk, three times as many of those underage pregnancies will occur in blacks compared to whites.
The percentage of underage pregnancies found among the FLDS teenagers was LESS than that of the black community as a whole. The rate in the hispanic community is midway between the black community and the Anglo community.
So does the blogger suggest en masse removal of teen females from the black community to protect from a black culture that uses and devalues them as ho’s as the ‘right thing to do’? Or from the Hispanics?
I realize the poster is a liberal and ‘feelings’ are important to her. Facts should be important to her as well, and apparently they are not.
For anyone who is interested in signing a petition against the judge’s actions or file a petition against her – there is a link on IPerceive.net.
This idea that she walked out of the court and will spend the week-end with her family (children?) and be able to go to the church of her choice and left the mothers and the children in limbo after the Supreme Court in Texas admonished her to get the children back to their families is arrogant, unfeeling, inhuman!
grfr – get a grip!
what the dolts, which keep bringing up INNER CITY pregnancies, DON’T get is that the girls in inner city scenarios are NOT being forced into spiritual marriages with old guys. They are not being indoctrinated by a pedo priest that the only way to heaven is to be raped impregnated by their elders.
Pregnancies, in the inner city and elsewhere are the products of boyfriend/girlfriend usually same age. In the cases of incest-rape and obvious adult-to-minor cohersion to rape, those are prosecuted where the perpetrator is found.
There is NO protective BS religious cover (of rapists) in the cases involved in inner city girls. Those inner city bums, when caught, get thrown in jail. FLDS bums, get Government protection. Therein lay the difference.
Amazing that this would be so difficult to understand.
Griefer, taken from the link you provided,
“Jessop’s attorney, Pat Matassarin, said the agreement was reached in a “collective effort.” She had filed a motion to continue the hearing when she learned the witnesses were going to testify and CPS lawyers had come to court with documents several inches thick — but she had no idea what they would be talking about.
“The only thing they’re supposed to be addressing is the physical well-being of the baby,” Matassarin said. “Not 13-year-olds, not 15-year-olds, none of that.”
Matassarin was referring to bombshell photographs introduced into evidence last week that showed Jeffs kissing a then-12-year-old girl in a manner that lawyers for CPS described as “how a husband kisses a wife.”
Apparently now CPS has the moral authority to judge how a man kisses a woman.
Anyway back to your link,
Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney acting as a spokesman for the FLDS Church, accused Texas child welfare authorities of engaging in a “publicity stunt” with courtroom evidence.
“They have nothing to do with this family,” he said. “It’s just an effort by CPS to get publicity for their larger intent to paint everybody with this same brush. These photos have no tie to this particular family in a way that’s relevant to these proceedings.”
more importantly,
Jessop’s baby was born while his mother was in state custody. CPS workers considered Bradshaw a minor. After the baby’s birth, however, CPS declared her an adult (she is 22) and sought to have the child placed in state custody along with more than 450 other FLDS children caught up in the raid.
While he considers it a partial victory, Jessop said he isn’t sure when his children will actually be reunited with their mother.
Promises of a reunion before have not been kept, he said.
which brings up these two links if you care to read,
http://www.mysanantonio.com/salife/family/stories/MYSA.052108.FLDShearings.EN.39759c4.html
which shows this,
came after proceedings in which more “girls” taken into custody by Texas Child Protective Services convinced the agency they are really adults, bringing the total to 10.
More are expected to be similarly reclassified this week, weakening the agency’s claim that dozens of underage girls were forced by the sect to have sex with older men.
On Tuesday, six “girls” were deemed adults, including 27-year-old Leona Allred, whose lawyer insisted CPS knew from the beginning that her client was an adult.
“My client showed them the same documents they showed them from the beginning: a valid Arizona driver’s license and a birth certificate,” Andrea Sloan said.
Two others, Merilyn Jeffs Keate and Sarah Cathleen Jessop Nielsen, were reclassified as adults on Monday as five judges began sifting through the cases of all the children taken from the YFZ Ranch in West Texas. Last week, the agency acknowledged that two “girls” who were among the more than 460 removed from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints’ ranch were really 18 and 22.
When all the legal wrangling is finished the number of underage girls who were pregnant or had underage sex will drop to about 5 and then because of when Texas changed the law in 2005, that number may drop more, only time will tell.
This should concern people who believe in rule of law.
Sloan and other lawyers for these disputed girls said on Tuesday they believe CPS deliberately classified them as children so that their own investigators, together with Texas Department of Public Safety officers, could interview them without their attorney present.
But a bigger concern to me is this story,
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_9238520
Mental health professionals who helped care for FLDS women and children in the weeks after an April raid on the YFZ Ranch describe conditions and treatment they perceived as harsh and unnecessary.
“Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people,” wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.
Staff members met with the center’s board of trustees last week, leaving them “spellbound.”
The board has gathered nine written statements critical of Child Protective Services.
Chairman John Kight said he wants state legislators and the governor to hear the employees’ stories. “You have damaged these children for their lives,” he said. “This is an agency that looks like it’s gone out of control.” A Texas CPS spokesman acknowledged the allegations were “very serious” and said they are being investigated.
also in fairness to CPS,
Not all Texas CPS employees were criticized by the Hill Country employees. One young man was described as sitting for two hours comforting a toddler separated from his mother. The Texas Rangers were “respectful and polite,” according to another statement.
Several of the employees stated they do not condone polygamy or the alleged abusive treatment of children. But, they added, the FLDS mothers were not silent or hostile, as CPS had warned they would be. Instead, they were polite, focused on caring for the children, and willing to establish relationships, the mental health workers said.
Several writers claimed CPS workers repeatedly lied to the mothers regarding where they were going to be moved to and other issues.
Crimmins said he disputed that. The state has asserted the FLDS mothers were uncooperative with authorities, such as providing inaccurate or changing information about names and ages.
On Yahoo alone, there are over 26.5 million hits on news stories related to the FLDS, meaning a person could spend every minute of every day reading and never be at the bottom of this story. Seeing as how I am not a member of the FLDS, I have not been to their “compound” I do not know what happened there, only what is being reported in the media and I am appalled at what appears to be the States attitude that just because “alleged” children are involved the rule of law doesn’t apply until after the fact. There was and still are legal methods the state of Texas could and should have used to determine if any laws were broken, then they could have filed charges, arrested, prosecuted and convicted the guilty party’s.
One of the reasons all of the children were removed was because the state considered the entire property to be one residence, that gives rise to the eventually that this case, if left unchallenged, would allow CPS to look at apartment buildings, Condos and other connected dwelling to be considered as one residence and that is a can of worms that doesn’t need to be opened. Something else to consider is if you start painting every religious group with a single brush, then logically you can attack the entire Catholic Church for the crimes of a few child molesters. Then the next step is to condemn all Moslem’s for believing in Islam because if Islam was started today in America it would most likely be considered a cult and would need to be dealt with accordingly. There I just offended over a billion people by comparing them to an evil cult, but the point is who am I to determine which religion is a cult and which isn’t??
That is why I am upset at HOW the state of Texas has handled this case and tried to share my reason for being concerned.
I’d be worried about CPS if this hadn’t come about because of acting on good faith to calls to an abuse shelter, in relation to a compound where their informant had given them reason to be jumpy. Given that most folks don’t live in compounds built under false pretenses and run by known child molesters, this is a rather unusual situation.
They only found the accused hoaxer when she kept calling after the raid.
BTW, there is evidence–from the cult itself–of underage “spiritual marriages.”
http://www.eldoradosuccess.com/graphics/BishopsList.pdf
Because “spiritual marriages” are not legal–to avoid the polygamy charges– every person you see there who is under 18 and listed as wife is evidence.
Texas allows folks to be married at 16, with parent’s permission, but that doesn’t really apply here.
James, toutes memes, Dan Jessop agreed to let the [evil satanic] CPS retain custody of his baby rather than let the court hear the testimony of the EIGHT underaged girls, including his young sister, mrs. jeffs.
sounds like evidence to me.
Thanks for the link Foxfier.
Polygamy is illegal in Texas. “Spiritual marriage” does not exist in the Legalities of Texas law or the laws of any other state.
1. Polygamy, honour killing, honour beatings, prohibiting female beyond certain grades, “spiritual marriages” with underage girls, rejection of state law-based legal age of content with adults, denying children life-saving medical proceedures(based on religious belief), wholesale abandonment of young boys represented as sexual competition, or any other cult practice that we, as normal law-abiding citizens must obey or WILL face serious consequences for breaking. None of these should ever be permitted to exist in this country as privledges under cultist ideologies.
The FLDS case has less to do with what we “feel” about their dress or look or living “Prophet” religion and much more to do with “special privledges” afforded or “overlooked” which are basic laws the rest of the country will be tossed in jail for breaking or ignoring. Laws BASED on basic compassionate moralities i might add. Laws that neither you nor I make, yet respect because they attempt to treat fairly ALL human beings. Especially women and children, who are mostly the preyed upon, and render us all hopefully more civilized. Once these individual rights break down, (and I am not talking about the right’s one man has over another – as in his right to dictate over his flock) or are glossed over, our society will quickly degenerate and all our base, animalistic instincts could take hold. One only has to look to any of the other continents OR other cults where and in which rule of law has either broken down or morphed into to see the result. From the taliban to darfur, rape and oppression always seems the first to surface.
The basic dichotomy comes down to one question.
Does the state of Texas have the right to protect itself from being parasitized by Warren Jeffs’ “Bleed the Beast” babyraping fundies or not?
According to FLDS liturgy and the word of the Prophet, Warren Jeffs, welfare fraud and polygamy are religious beliefs, and as such protected under constitutional freedom of religious practices.
griefer makes a big thing out of the three-judge dissent on the Texas Supreme Court, claiming that this minority dissent makes the decision ambiguous. However, the decisions by both the Texas court of appeals and the Supreme Court were not divided but unanimous in quashing the demand by the department that it be allowed to retain custody of all the hundreds of seized children, regardless of sex and proximity to puberty.
What dissent there was (3 out of 9 justices of the Supreme Court) was explicitly taken only concerning the minority of pubescent females who were regarded as being at some immediate risk. As the dissent reads:
‘I agree that there
was no evidence of imminent “danger to the physical health or safety” of boys and pre-pubescent
girls to justify their removal from the YFZ Ranch, and to this extent I join the Court’s opinion.’
Thus two separate Texas high court decisions both unanimously slapped down the Texas DFPS on its more extravagant claim that Texas law allowed the department to basically automatically remove all the children and keep them separated from their parents in state custody indefinitely.
Exactly Griefer.
FLDS isn’t any different than fundamentalist Muslim Sharia doctrine. Polygamy, opression of women, forced arranged marriages, fleecing of “dhimmi”(non-muslims) and so on.
An interesting metamorphosis is in play in the UK as we speak. British law is being summarily hijacked by Islam. In the name of “freedom of religion” Sharia law is becoming enmeshed in British society. It is already having its negative impact to British citizens financially(welfare checks to all the plural wives and children of those marriages) as well as medically (female muslim medical practitioners/surgeons refusing to treat male patients), not to mention the moderate Muslim women who embarked on western shores to escape such religious tryanny – who thought they were protected. When the laws are parsed to protect the few rather than the many, when passes are given to the practices (desires)of cults that seek to divide people rather than unite then we’ve got problems.
totally copacetic transcended!
How does the State rid itself of an icheneumon wasp style infestation that exploits citizen rights to parasitize the State?
The UK has the same problem as Texas.
To me, it seems fierce unrelenting prosecution of the criminals is the effect only response.
Only Texas is trying to do something about it.
The UK isn’t.
Then, Michael McNeil, why didnt’ Dan Jessop AGREE to let CPS retian custody of his baby?
Please, give us your analysis.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5803869.html
evidence that we know about so far:
Bishop’s List, wedding pictures of Jeffs with 12 and 14 year old “brides”, testimony from at least 8 underaged girls in CPS custody,….and DNA from 450+ children, assorted moms, some dads, warren jeffs and whoever else the state taps for a DNA test.
You are dreaming if you think there isn’t a conviction or 20 in there.
Non sequitur. The court decisions including dissent speak for themselves. But continue writhing in all directions in response, it’s quite a spectacle.
I think its fine for children to return home, with Walthers caveats, at least the ones not at risk.
I concur with the supremes.
But i don’t think the 8 underaged girls that were going to testify in Jessop vs Texas will be going back to the FLDS anytime soon.
Michael, what do you think those girls will say when they do testify?
Personally, I think they are gonna RAT OUT the FLDS patriarchy daddies.
It is what i would have done at 14 in their situ.
End result at end of the of court’s investigation?
Pedos = jailed
The innocent moms and dads = get a life
All the little girls = back in school
All little boys = no future threat of being kicked to the curb
Compound = sold
FLDS’s in neighboring states = investigation and purge
The laws that excuse crazy religions their secrecy = changed and tightened to prohibit said secrecy.
Laws banning polyamy = enforced.
Life goes on happily without these wacky groups.
michele said:
“why not just take the pregnant girls and the ones who have given birth instead of ALL the kids, especially the nursing infants?”
Why only the girls who are or were pregnant? I doubt every victimized girl got pregnant.
And why only the girls?
James: “Something else to consider is if you start painting every religious group with a single brush, then logically you can attack the entire Catholic Church for the crimes of a few child molesters. Then the next step is to condemn all Moslem’s for believing in Islam because if Islam was started today in America it would most likely be considered a cult and would need to be dealt with accordingly. But the point is who am I to determine which religion is a cult and which isn’t?? ”
The point is that basically every religion is cult-like. And they are all basically man-made. All cults are not created equally, obviously as well.
The difference is that the Head of the Catholic faith does NOT say he is a Prophet and as head of the faith, he does NOT condone pedophilia. Nor does he condone plural wives. In fact, as the keeper of the faith and as leader, the Pope does not even condone sex before marriage and also does not operate outside the laws of the land. Within the Catholic church there is transparency. Pedophile priests are not heads of the faith, they are employees of the Pope. Churches are NOT compounds in which families live. Pedo priests are NOT above the laws of the land nor are excused by the Pope for breaking laws of Land or the faith. Jesus, the rightful “prophet” of the Christian faith, “according to the bible” was neither married nor sleep with underage boys and girls. Are there what we would consider perverts (pedos) inside the Catholic faith that operate as employees? Yes. Are they punished? When caught and convicted, yes. Does that mean the Catholic faith is one that condones deviant behaviour? no.
Fundamentalist sharia Islam is based on the scriptures according to Mohammed. The man was what we, in the US and around the west, consider a pedophile. According to the Koran, he had a 9 year old bride. Also according to the koran he was a polygamist as he had many wives. Within the Koran there are many examples of how muslims should live. None of which has been changed. There is no seperation between “church and state.”
The differences between the Christian religion and fundamentalist Islam is Enlightenment. Christianity cannot dictate to the government. Islam IS the government. Christians may hate the idea of abortion but as a faith-based entity it does not have power to stop it in a legal sense.
Islam would not be able to exist in this country as it exists in direct conflict to our rule of seperation of church and state and much of Islams
practices are also in direct conflict to the fundamental equal rights present here.
The compound of a cult such as FLDS is no different than a mini fundamentalist islamic state, and its practices in direct conflict with laws of our land, therefore should NOT be allowed to operate.
I’ve noted quite a bit of emphasis on the fact that three of the nine Supreme Court Justices “dissented” in regard to the FLDS case.
If I’ve got it right, though, this was a very limited dissent, relating only to “pubescent girls” who were a small minority of the 450+ children involved. Regarding the other children, well over 90% of those seized, the Court was _unanimous_.
The problem is that Child Protective Services also has a bad record. It is not safe to assume that government intervention will improve the children’s lives. The Government makes a very poor parent, and I do not trust Social Services to know what is best for children – especially when they seem to think that the fourth amendment does not apply to them.
Indiscriminately seizing hundreds of children based on guilt by association is a crime.
Does anyone else feel they detect a recurring pattern in all this?
I’m getting the impression that something of this kind pops up in the US every decade or two – and always with much the same results. Iirc, there was a similar business in Atlanta five or six years ago, and still another in Vermont or somewhere about 20 years before _that_. Maybe others I haven’t heard of, going back to the ones in Utah and Arizona c1950.
The common denominator is that they all seem to end the same way – with the kids going home. Its as if the Child “Protection” Services in various states can’t resist the temptation to take a short cut, by just seizing _all_ the children in the place, and sorting out abused from unabused in their own time, with any who were taken unnecessarily just having to put up with it for the sake of whoever (maybe) was being – something they aren’t under the slightest obligation to do.
This tactic never seems to work, but that doesn’t stop another bunch from trying it on a few years down the line. It’s as if there’s a certain inability to learn from experience, or at least for one state to learn from the experience of another.
Mr. Stone-
bit different here because their own records show that abuse *was* happening, there is additional testimony from insiders, and former cult members say that the things being alleged are not unlikely or are the norm.
I think the Atlanta case you’re talking about is the one where they shut down the daycare on bogus charges? Not sure, from the details.
I guess that is how they do things in texas. Hey look, my great grandmaw got married at 13yo to my thirty-five year old great granpaw and I turned out just fine.
look closely at all the females of all ages in this sect. they all share the same facial features. they are inbreds.
Here is the bottom line-
What if your children were removed from your home-due to a phone call from an unidentified source? What if you were prevented from seeing them, comforting them? What if it was your religious beliefs that were being questioned? It sounds so innocent when it it “those” people. If we do not extend the rule of law to all, then we cannot complain when injustice comes to our house. You see, we must be just-even when we suspect the worse case. These children will be much safer,now. But some of the girls will remain in custody. Carefully..we must allow justice to prevail in the correct manner.
Foxfier.
No, the Atlanta case I had in mind related to some bunch called the “House of Prayer”. These were/are led by some guy named Allen who sounds to have a bit in common with that Jeffs person
Just to muddy the water, there’ also an Atlanta one called the “International House of Prayer” but I that seems ro be a different organisation.
I quite accept that the cases differ in their details, but my main point was that, despite any such differences, they all seemed to end up in much the same way – rather a case of “All roads lead to home”, though some kids might be longer getting back than others.
Avril- If there was a history of abuse in my household and someone got a 911 call, then when the cops came in I lied to them and my children lied to them, and they found write ups of abuse of a sub-group of the children for religious reasons, AND my religion required an illegal activity and/or child abuse….
I would be pissed, but that’s because if I was the sort to abuse children and keep written records, I wouldn’t be very objective.
I am very much for extending the rule of law to all. That includes folks who try to hide behind religion as a reason to have sex with teenage girls, and who abandon their teenage boys to lower the competition.
Mr. Stone-
Thank you for the information; I’m trying to do a writeup on these things, and that helps a lot.
The real problem here is putting faith in the government to right every perceived wrong. We don’t go there, the Constitution requires the government to trust its citizens (1, 2, 4th Amendments). We especially don’t go down the route with children, relying on maternal and parental affection to get children to adulthood.
Sure, there are some scary stories about that cult. Sooner or later they internally blow up and go away. CPS is not in the job of ironing out cults, it is to help children who are in clear and immediate danger. And besides, in our culture, who would trust a bureaucrat to disguish between, say, Catholics, who under close examination are weird enough (my religion, btw), and some LDS spinoff.
Pashley-
I’m not trusting the government to “right every perceived wrong.”
I’m trusting them to enforce the LAW. Even if screwing little girls is popular. Even if throwing away little boys is popular. Even if kicking out men and redistributing their wives is popularly ignored.
If the FLDS had just waited until the girls were 18, they’d be fine.
But evidence is toward them not doing so, and thus breaking the law.
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