“There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood,” Murtha said. “They actually went into the houses and killed women and children.”

What does Murtha have to gain for calling marines cold blooded killers?

Its unbelievable how someone can sit and write this up to make them feel better.

If you do not accept this comment on your blog, you yourself will be a coward for not letting people have their opinion.

I’ll wager that AKs sound noticeably different than M-16s, too, so it sounds to me like the LT called it and they did what they were trained to do.

Whether SSgt. Wuterich exercised poor judgement, is possible, but I wasn’t there being shot at just after a comrade has been blown to dog meat.
Some folks need to reread Grim’s comments to you and really consider his words. The blood of these dead people is on the hands of of whoever fired on the convoy; the sin is his, IMO.

Further, concerning room clearing procedures, many veterans of the 2nd battle for Fallujah became DIs (in boot) and instructors at SOI, and teach the same things that they did in Fallujah, as well they should.

As to cordon and knock, very well. Do it that way, and I have no problem with it. It appears that in Haditha that day and around the time of this incident, the level of hostilities and danger made it such that the decision had not been made to engage differently. Anyone can second guess this approach, but since it is in the past, this is not the point.

Again, I don’t know what happened concerning the auto. These parts of the reports are the least clear. The clearer reports come from roon clearing, and it appears that they all followed standard TTPs in use at the time. So says Lt. Col. Paul Ware.

I agree that the incident at the taxi is the most questionable, and it is difficult to place the men there as threats. The closest I have heard is that they could have been running to trigger another IED. Again it is the state of mind of the shooter that matters not the actual threat. Plus the men were said to have run well after the explosion and while being addressed by an armed US Marine.

“And the facts clearly bear out, as presented here, that they were wrong, the families were not insurgents. The five men were probably not insurgents so far as we’ve been told.”

I disagree that we know any of these folks, other than the young children, were not insurgents. Brass from AK-47s was found in the first house they assaulted later that afternoon, when SSgt Laughner examined the scene. So somebody was firing from that building.

I have said that I am only trying to see if there was a crime, or even more would they be convicted if tried. I think no in both cases. I also think that they operated at the very edge of the ROE and they could and probably should have pulled back and re-evaluated the situation.

Cordially,

Uncle J

The use of deadly force at the time was limited to those who display a hostile act or a hostile intent.

Some acts are determined to exhibit hostile intent that might ordinarily be seen as innocent, such as carrying a shovel at night along a road. Running from a bomb blast is not on that list. If these men popped up out from behind a blind or hole, that might be considered hostile intent as they are likely the triggerman. But it’s a bit of a stretch to decide that a car that is on the road and stops because of an IED blowing up nearby indicates that they were the triggermen. People are allowed, heck, expected to run when a bomb goes off next to them.

The car is “parked” because the Marines are driving by. In Haditha traffic is light enough that all vehicles are required to pull off to the side when Marines are drving by. They had to stop. I think it would be hard to get a car to pass a Marine convoy at the exact time they would need to stop so that they can detonate a bomb. The timing is not impossible, but unlikely. And it turns out that they were not the triggermen.

It is almost unheard of to find a triggerman at an IED incident. Shooting after an IED is pretty unproductive because anyone you see is likely not involved.

Haditha is not Iwo Jima. Haditha is not even Second Fallujah. They are not allowed to go around killing everyone in sight. It is the hallmark of Marines to be ruthless, but disciplined. Here they were only ruthless. Any numbskull can just be ruthless.

And the facts clearly bear out, as presented here, that they were wrong, the families were not insurgents. The five men were probably not insurgents so far as we’ve been told. So it would seem that not only were the rules ignored, but the very people the rules were designed to protect were killed. You can’t get much more wrong than that.

Perhaps Uncle J is correct in that Wuterich’s acts were not criminal, only negligent. I can see that argument. I think that is giving more benefit of the doubt than I would like, but it may be all that is provable in a court martial.

One Humvee just got blown up by an IED. Iraqi men run from a parked car immediately afterwards.

What is your logical reaction?

IED in the car, controls on the Iraqis. Shoot them dead or die in an IED explosion.

Jeez. Buy a clue. It’s an IED war. Shoot first or die.

You bring up an interesting point. LCpl Mendoza had charges against him for that shooting dropped in exchange for this testimony. So this incident was not subjected to as much scrutiny in the following hearings. I agree that ringing a bell and then shooting the person who answers through the door would be ridiculous and criminal. LCpl Mendoza’s testimony was deemed to be unreliable in the Art. 32′s. So if he did as he says then he committed a crime and skated by testifying against his buddies. Not very flattering if true.

Mike,

I have given SSgt Wuterich the most charitable reading possible of the ROE and his decisions and also his state of mind. I saw his interview on 60 Minutes and he did himself no favors there either.

You make good points about both his highly questionable but probably not criminal actions and how they affected the mission overall. They definitely adversely affected relations with many Sunnis.

Thanks for checking in.

Cordially,

Uncle J