Pay No Danegeld: Teaching Western Civilization
Why do most colleges require students to take a semester (sometimes two) of Western civilization? We want students to know about the history of our civilization because, amazingly enough, humans keep making the same stupid mistakes. The historian’s hope — well, at least this historian’s hope — is that students will recognize the stupidity of first century BC Rome, and fourth century BC Greece, and Weimar Republic Germany, and about nine zillion other moments in time — and not do it again! It’s probably a hopeless task, but I try.
But there is another reason as well. The West has a rich heritage of faith and reason that we want our students to understand. There are so many historical and cultural references contained in our books and literature that will be utterly mystifying if you do not know from whence they came. My students (well, most of them) now know why “Spartan” as an adjective refers to very primitive or basic services or provisions. They know what “crossing the Rubicon” means — and whose crossing of that river meant that “the die is cast.” They understand the importance of channelization in warfare, because of how the Greeks used it to defeat the Persians at Marathon, Thermopylae, and Salamis. They know why “Praetorian Guard” often means someone who is as much in charge as the person or institution that they are supposed to be protecting.
A recent week was devoted to a discussion of the conflict between centralization and localism in the medieval period. King Alfred the Great, the Danish invasion of England, and Afred’s efforts to drive the Danes out of the land inevitably led to a discussion of the Danegeld. The Danegeld was the tribute that the Danes required of the English to avoid further depredations — and England’s decision to no longer pay the Danegeld is part of the war that drives the Danes out.
During the cultural connection part of the class, I pulled out Rudyard Kipling’s 1911 poem called “The Dane-geld.” Shortly after 9/11, throughout the Western world, this marvelous poem was briefly in vogue again — until it became fashionable to hate and fear George Bush more than Osama bin Laden. I had thought of reading the poem myself, but decided to look for a dramatic reading instead.
After a little digging around, I found someone reading it, all right. It was not a particularly dramatic reading. But it was who read it, and where, and when that grabbed my attention quite powerfully.
Yes, it was President Ronald Reagan reading the poem at a meeting of the National Security Planning Group in 1985, when we were confronting a terrorist hijacking problem in the Middle East. (As Mark Twain observed, “History never repeats itself, but at least it rhymes.”) It is unfortunate that Reagan’s legacy of “No Danegeld” will always be tarnished by the Iran-Contra affair. (Strictly speaking, this was not paying Danegeld — but it certainly is not the muscular response that Kipling’s poem brings to mind, is it?) Nonetheless, in the larger scheme of twentieth century history, Reagan’s willingness to stand firm against the Soviet Union, and bluff them with SDI into bankruptcy, is a powerful reminder of what Kipling meant when he ended that poem:
“We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!”
“Millions for defense. Not a penny in tribute.” – Thomas Jefferson (regarding the Barbary Pirates)
We should put that poem on billboards everywhere. Maybe print it on T-shirts and anywhere else that would put some sense in people.
I’m a little confused: so we’re NOT going to pay Sarah Palin to NOT run?
Sorry.
I got my history from Sherman and Peabody and my ideas about central gov’t largely come from the 1959 film version of Li’l Abner.
What a coincident that I just bought a book called ‘Alfred The Great’ by Eleanor Shipley Duckett in the Goodwill thrift store. As soon as I finish ‘The Autobiography Of Benjamin Franklin’ I intend to read it. While pondering the life of Franklin it occurred to me that each individual is responsible for his or her own education, and that no amount of money thrown at education will matter if people don’t desire it for themselves. Sadly, many people are content to be ignorant and they deserve whatever that gets them. Western civilization is immensely rich and valuable. We should endeavor to keep it.
Kipling also wrote, in “The Gods of the Copybook Headings:”
In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”
“It’s Tommy this and Tommy that
and ‘throw the blighter out!’
but it’s ‘he’s a bloody hero’
when the guns begin to shoot.”
- R. Kipling
“We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!”
The shorter, American version: “Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYZ_Affair
What are we supposed to tether our new nation to?
Our own bubblegum chewing, tattooed, half naked generations that have no idea who the Vice President is and their only goal in life is the pursuit of dope combined with an endless stream of physical gratification and sexual stimulations?
If not our own youth then, for the sake of compassion and human decency should the investment be in the multiple millions of illegal Latino immigrants that our Presidents and Congresses are trying to buy off with our money as we head towards the inevitable Hispanic takeover in the near future? Will it matter then that these people do not; and never will give a tinkers damn what the United States of America used to be like, hence might even be again?
Would the new world order be wise to continue the concessions and dues we pay that free us from the terrible acts and fears imposed by extreme terrorism coming from the religion of Islam? After all it is a religion of peace they say.
Maybe I am too down or too cynical or too old anymore?
But I see a thumbnail of Sarah Palin heading Mr. Cramer’s article calling to America and somehow I know that this nation will never invest itself in her or any similar person.
What empires and nations survived after they sold out their citizenships, hearts and souls for any reasoning?
I would not work hard either, if I was still in my twenties. Why would you, given that the nation is likely to become increasingly confiscatory in its attitude towards producers during the next 3-4 decades?
It takes a lifetime to build a productive career and business. If the chances are good that your toil will not garner you much 40 years hence, why not simply enjoy your twenties as much as possible, with leisure and hedonism taking up your time? No sense waiting until 65 to enjoy life, if nearly everyone is going to enjoy the same penurious existence at that point, regardless of effort between now and then.
Kids are just being rational, I think.
Ah those were the days when; prior to their induction physical some of my “friends” spiked their morning coffee with a box full of sugar cubes or just tippy toed safely across the northern border and leeched off of Canada for a few years.
Others, myself included went because it was the right thing to do. None buckled, none groveled, none kneeled (except to worship God) and many never came home again.
Albeit, in the end I know that it was our sacrifices and our services that preserved the freedoms that protected the aforementioned social exceptions who echoed the same sentiments you do Noway: They were just being rational.
In example William Jefferson Clinton knew enough then to “save himself” for the future betterment of our country. Should we rebirth our country and selves in his image?
Or choose a hero that likes nothing better than bad mouthing our nation while remembering the days he flung his military awards and honors over the Whitehouse fence to squeals of delight coming from Jane Fonda and the Chinese / North Vietnamese Communists?
So, in my mind the question remains, “What then do we make ourselves back into..?”
It isn’t easy to soar like an eagle when you are forced to deal with turkeys.
I would also point out that old codgers shaking their heads at what’s become of those darn kids today is a cliche literally as old as the civilization we’re trying to preserve.
Why work hard, for no reward? Because there is one reward they can’t take from you – PRIDE, and another – knowledge. Two years ago, I could have taken a medical disability, and retired, at 80% pay the rest of my life. I didn’t, in fact, I FOUGHT my MD to go back to work. Since that time, I’ve been laid off, and I’m now working for that same 80%. (BTW, I had enough warning of the layoff, I probably could have hustled up the same disability ‘out’) Why? Because I refuse to be in the ‘leach’ category
Oh, another poem you should read to your students – and do so on 11/11 (and maybe again right before Memorial Day weekend) “Flander Fields”
Oddly enough, that does not describe many of my students. (Okay, a lot of them are tattooed, and some of them are turning in papers in my wife’s English class about the importance of legalizing pot.) I am sometimes startled at how aware many of the traditional age students are what a disaster the generation that grew up in the 1960s made of this country.
Why study history? I believe the best reason is captured by this quote (source unknown):
“Any damned fool can learn from his own mistakes. Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others.”
The quote, “Any fool can learn from experience; I prefer to learn from the experience of others,” is from Bismark.
And Bismarck was probably paraphrasing Franklin’s comment about experience being a very dear teacher but many will have no other.
In Naval Aviation we had a slogan: “Learn from the mistakes of others. You won’t live long enough to make them all yourself”.
False advertising! You have a picture of Sarah accompanying this article, so I thought you’d eventually get around to her. As a Sarah supporter I was disappointed. Pajamasmedia — don’t do that to me again.
Hindsight is always good, but even during the Iran-Contra “scandal” it was clear to me and my colleagues (in the counter terror business) that it was a very good thing to help the Contras, and a very bad thing to arm the Iranians.
Especially since the 1983 barracks bombing in Beirut, which was clearly sponsored by Iran and its puppets in Lebanon. And in response to which Reagan did next to nothing (thanks, Cap Weinberger…).
Next to nothing? He sank Iran’s Navy ( http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_032808/content/01125118.guest.html ) to the point that they still harass our Navy in little speed boats.
Good idea, but would you or anyone who learned history at home or before 1960, i.e. ordinary American, believe teachers/teaching of history in not only what,but in the ideas gleaned from THEIR history. Kipling to many/ most? of the politically correct “educated” in universities, through the “History Channel” or the BBC and their ilk is anathema as member of these teachers designated vile /evil western imperialism.
It is simply not possible to learn history from useful idiots who beat the drums of their tribe of “best and brightest”. Their history as weapon against tribes of “ordinary” Americans (what exactly is an ordinary American?), and thoughtful persons who decide from their independent searches (there’s that “ugly” American word again, remember Independence?)what to think about the world, their country and their place in them.
Politically correct teachers display by dismissing question, reservation about material taught with sneering disdain. Rather than respect for students’ willingness and action to evaluate rather than parrot – repeat repeat and repeat as litany.
Their styles of teaching ought to have alerted sentient persons that they are propagandists/brainwashers, clerics who joined historical figures whose social purpose was to push other, weaker persons around, even to murdering them in the millions if they did not comply with the “politically correct” take of the “leaders” on the world.
Question: WHAT is political correctness in a nation of free citizens free in law and custom to believe, espouse and state publicly,if they do not impinge on others rights,what they believe, however disliked by others. EVEN the self appointed “elite”.
It is the history they teach that makes Kipling and his like such danger to them.
Read another Kipling poem The Gods of the Copy Book Headings for a thorough understanding of his knowledge of “doing good” via government control.
Well, your statement,
“The historian’s hope — well, at least this historian’s hope — is that students will recognize the stupidity of first century BC Rome, and fourth century BC Greece, and Weimar Republic Germany, and about nine zillion other moments in time — and not do it again! It’s probably a hopeless task, but I try.”
implies a focus on the failing part, and failures in Classical Greece and Ancient Rome (forget the Weimar Republic – it doesn’t even come close to these times of past glory); your selective references to a small sample of historical quotes from that GLORIOUS era is indicative of your negative manner you chose to approach that golden age of human (not simply Western) Civilization.
And I found it to be the case among students, when I taught it for a semester at my University, while on the faculty there. What I would like to ask here is this: it’s about time we, in the West, start looking at what made the rise of that really GOLDEN AGE possible, focus on its ascendancy and quit the whining, the inevitability of failure and all the negativity associated with lamenting its Fall.
We have a job to do, the challenges from within and from without are formidable, we don’t need losers around us any more.
“What I would like to ask here is this: it’s about time we, in the West, start looking at what made the rise of that really GOLDEN AGE possible, focus on its ascendancy and quit the whining, the inevitability of failure and all the negativity associated with lamenting its Fall.”
1. Sorry, but what’s the question?
2. What’s with “we, in the West”? Does the East conform to your teaching philosophy?
3. In my mind your “whine” is analogous to a) fire burns, and b) fire cooks meat, positive and negative of the same action, and any teacher who doesn’t emphasize (b) is a “loser”. When teaching history, it’s impossible to dissociate one from the other. Can’t teach the fall of the Roman Empire without teaching about the glories that were Rome.
OK, I’ll go slowly ‘jarmo’ let me know if it’s too fast for you:
(i) ‘I ask’ as in ‘I plead’ or as in ‘I appeal earnestly’ with you readers…?
(ii) East? Did you read the title of the article my eastern esteemed friend? Speaking of that ‘East’ do you mean the ‘Soviet Union’ ‘Persia’ the ‘Huns’ or the ‘Mongols’?
(iii) Sorry, I can’t answer mumbo jumbo.
I am way ahead of you on this. Understanding the mistakes is important because we are not trying to avoid repeating the successes.
Excellent, but your emphasis here in your article with the narrative and the quotes, alas, shows differently.
What is this gratuitously shown, unreferenced picture of Sarah Palin doing here?
Does she represent, or is she somehow related to, any of these quotes?
Her limited understanding of Western Civ certainly doesn’t bode well for it, WC that is. As does the implied message of the article, that bluffing (Reagan’s alleged bluffing of the Soviets in the 1980′s on Star Wars) is a real winner for Western Civilization. Banking on bluffs alone won’t get you much during a pocker match, never mind the future of the West. There’re far deeper issues involved, and there isn’t enough space or time here to get into even some of them.
I have no idea why the Sarah Palin picture ended up there. Not that I object to seeing her smiling face!
First of all, it’s “poker” not “pocker” in my post, sorry for the typo.
I was expecting a different response on SP’s picture from you, Clayton – but I’m happy with your confession.
“Her limited understanding of Western Civ certainly doesn’t bode well for it, WC that is.”
Your belief that an “understanding of Western Civ” is a prerequisite to government leadership is the height of conceit. You sound too much like an elitist. Who, pray tell, has this “understanding”? And because the issue is so complex, “understanding” is nothing more than a matter of interpretation. Ten different scholars will give you ten different “understandings”. Name a single president who had or has this understanding of “Western Civ” (sounds like a college term, and you are trying to impress). It may be more beneficial for today’s Western leaders to have an understanding of Eastern “Civ”.
” It may be more beneficial for today’s Western leaders to have an understanding of Eastern “Civ”.
Yeah sure, multi culti, pc-er. Didn’t we all hear that before.
Indeed; as the careers of Muhammed, the Hung Wu emperor, Aurangzeb, and Stalin show, the important thing is the ability to kill everyone who opposes you.
“Her limited understanding of Western Civ certainly doesn’t bode well for it,”
I almost CERTAIN that you have an example of this supposed ‘lack of understanding of Western Civ” on Gov. Palin’s part…right? Right?
(cue the crickets chirping)
I can only sigh at your stupidity, PA.
I definitely won’t try to ‘refudiate’ that one, smartypants.
Hey smartass…can you guess what Oxford English Dictionary’s word of the year for 2010 was?
I bet you’re one of the monumental intellectuals who slammed her for warning TEA Partiers not to ‘party like if was 1773′, am I right?
I bet I am.
She’s still smarter than you are.
When she considers islam to be just another religion to be treated as such and tolerated, she doesn’t have a clue about the foundations of the West.
And I’m sure you’re all over it, ain’t ya…Dr. Hawking?
Do you even pay attention?
I’m rushing to the library (errrr, her FB page I meant) to get her latest treatise on the subject of Western Civilization.
Do you happen to have the exact citation?
It’s listed right under the treatises of Western Civilization that every other President published…
Oh wait.
Why was she supposed to have a treatise on Western Civ again, when no other American President has? Becasue, as wer know, every President has been a history professor.
Just curious.
Then maybe I should check the numerous tomes that her closest associates on National Security, Strategic Analysis and Defense, Fiscal and Monetary Policy, Government Social and Public Policy, International Trade, Techonological Innovation and Economic Affairs, Rebecca Mansur and Tammy Bruce (two of her closest advisers and experts on all of the above subjects, great Historians themselves, and lecturers on Western Civilization) have written on the subject.
Come on AF Vet, give it a break; she’s street smart but otherwise clueless.
Newt Gingrich, before running for office, was a history professor. His doctoral dissertation is on educational policy in the Belgian Congo. But my guess is that few critics of Sarah Palin would find Gingrich any more acceptable.
And for the confused, condemning Koran burning because of its potential reaction is paying Dane-geld.
A great video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeyrp-V3Jvc&feature=related
more than 110,000 hits in less than a week, about this koran burning issue.
It is perfectly sensible to tell this pastor that burning the Koran is dumb. Argue against it. Point out the barbarism of many of its teachings. Point to the serious questions about whether the Koran as we have received is the document that Mohammed wrote. But burning it is provocative without being effective.
That said, any politician that supports a ban on Koran burning out of concern for Muslim sensitivities, while rationalizing gay marriage, is not being honest.
There are three powerful Kipling poems that all seem especially pertinent right now: If read by Dennis Hopper; Danegeld; and The Gods of the Copybook Headings.
But we DO pay Danegeld. Tom Wolfe wrote about it years ago in an article he titled “Mau Mau-ing the Flak-Catchers.” We pay it through Affirmative Action and Welfare, e.g. the War on Poverty that has no end.
Danegeld is something that is paid for ‘peace.’ And it does not have to be money. It can be paid out in different standards of justice. See, for example, Victor Davis Hanson’s most recent article about California and his description of the differing treatment of the person using a cell-phone in the car compared to the ecological disaster surrounding certain communities. And Danegeld can be paid in other ways, like the differing treatment of Christians vs. Muslims here, in the U.S. We pay Danegeld every day.
history teaches us that for a nation to remain vibrant it needs to win its wars and its citizenry need their skin in the game
The danes are running our country.
Balderdash. The Danes were the only folks with enough pride in their own culture to endorse its freedom of speech by printing the ‘Mohammed’ cartoons. The ‘Dane-geld’ quickly materialized as the riots and deaths and burning embassies employed against Western civilization by Mohammedans. All the other Western democracies paid that Islamic Dane-geld, by suppressing the vigorous printings of those cartoons that should have followed, and assuring themselves that by paying that price, the rioters would postpone their riotings and deaths and burning buildings – until the next trumped-up cause became convenient for the Islamists.
What is this all about?
Your remark has absolutely nothing to do with my comment, which, obviously, is that our own “leaders” are the people we need to be worrying about.
If I had wanted to comment about cartoons, fanatical Muslims and the Danish people, I would have done so.
Our ‘leaders’ are the people who felt, and feel, it more prudent to pay the Dane-geld. It’s paid by the craven expedient of giving up one or more of our freedoms. Example: General Petraeus, wishing that no Korans be burned by eccentric Florida preachers. Earlier examples: the learned Editors and Publishers who sacrificed their first amendment rights by suppressing publication of the Mohammed cartoons, earnestly blathering about them but denying the American public a view of the caricatures.
Why pay gold, when sacrificing some ancient freedoms will do as well?
@Mark Malone: The quote itself is from the “XYZ Affair” a few years before, during the Adams administration. Jefferson paid $60,000 ransom for captured Americans as part of the peace treaty ending the Barbary War, but the war itself (a US victory) ended the both the tribute paid and the predations on American shipping.
The socialist/marxist agenda can huff and puff all they like. They have thrown enough propaganda on the west, via media, academics and articles, to sink and murder a dozen nations.
But the one world order will not prevail. They did not study how the western civilization’s golden era was built and are running blind.
You see, the golden era was built with permission from the Throne. The one world agenda has no such permission.
Unless the Lord build the house, the builders build in vain.
I guess you have a hard time with 3000 years of Chinese history, then?
3000-years?
That barely takes us back before Confucius.
Certainly there was something going on in China before then, a lot of something in fact.
“implies a focus on the failing part”
Maybe if you make a lot of wrong assumptions.
Interesting video. If there was a similar video of Obama and his staff, how many would be over the age of 60 or even 50?
Interesting video. If there was a similar video of Obama and his staff, how many would be over the age of 60 or even 50?
Aside from their ages, I’d also like to know how many of Obama’s senior staff have ever held a job in the private sector or done military service. I’ll bet most of them have spent their entire careers in government “service” or “working” in non-profit groups as social “activists”.
How many…I bet you can count them all on one hand and have fingers left over.
It is always easy to stop paying the Danegeld… it is, however, much harder to get rid of the Dane.
…and I like the tall, blond, long legged Dane ladies.
Things are not that bad in the academy. There are certainly the sort that you describe, but they are not quite the dominant force that you think.
History Channel is actually surprisingly free of cant–at times, almost conservative in how it presents history.
I saw a survey a few months back indidating that more of today’s grammer school kids knew of Harriet Tubman than Benjamin Frankin. No knock on Tubman, but, I mean, come on.
If you think about it, it’s form of Dane-geld.
I saw a survey a few months back indidating that more of today’s grammer school kids knew of Harriet Tubman than Benjamin Frankin.
A PJM article here a few months back revealed that every American kid these days learns about George Washington Carver, the successful black scientist-entrepreneur, but very few learn about Thomas Edison! What person in their right mind teaches Carver but ignores Edison? No disrespect to Carver but surely Edison accomplished much more of lasting value than Carver ever did. If you only had time to teach one of these two figures, surely it should be Edison; not because Edison is white but because he is more significant.
One grammatical issue I have to take up: “from whence” is a tautology. The meaning of “whence” includes “from.”
I fully admit this is both minor and pedantic.
You are correct.
I taught both “If” and the supposedly grammatically challenged:
I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth. He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber. Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.
<>
You snuck that past the Tweed Monitors? Blathering Blasphemy Alert!
More like – from whence cometh a taut Red Pencil Neck Tongue Depressor Tax Rap Pick It Fence But 4-4-4 is more than 2-2-2 will solve Mr. President’s Libyan erectoral woes.
Words are fun, aren’t they? Just cut ‘em up and toss them in the air and you are a Modern Liberal… artiste. You do prefer a taut Palin. Taught? If… Whence Fred Meyer Firecrackers.
Hey, D-White, what, how about Mr. President joining the Tea Party? Everything is on the table! Even your Tweed Life Supporter!
Will Palin and Mr. President date?
You see somebody naked
And you say, “Who is that man?”
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
How doth Belial tap thou vein, and the people under Belial’s hoof not rage?
“thou?”
Then Red Pencil Neck it. I see “taught”. Past tense…
One does teach both “thy” and “thou” to the challenged progressives.
Beware, Belial is consuming challenged progressives out in the open now.
Which panel of The Garden of Earthly Delights does Belial inhabit?
You walk into the room
With your pencil in your hand…
I think I went to green ink after a while, because the red was so connotative and stereotypical.
Just don’t try to give me any “For thou is the kingdom” or the blaze and the glory shall be quenched, the cisterns shall be dry, and the grasshopper shall rule, leaving a whimper and gasp, rather than a bang. Selah.
The Greeks defeated the Persians at Thermopylae? I suppose Travis defeated the Mexicans at the Alamo, too.
Yes, the Persians won Thermopylae–but the delay made it possible for the rest of Greece to be ready for the Persian army and navy when it arrived. When you are outnumbered as dramatically as the Greeks were at Thermopylae, it is hard to call holding the Persians for that long a defeat.
It certainly became an inspiration to the Greeks, due largely to the way the Spartans went to their deaths. But the actual delay gained was minimal, and Leonidas set out hoping to hold the Persians up for far longer than a few days — he wanted to block the Persians from entering the Greek heartland, not merely a glorious defeat. And if Ephialtes hadn’t betrayed the pass, or if the Phocians had made a better stand at the pass, he might have succeeded. I agree it became an important rallying-cry in the long struggle, but it wasn’t a victory for the Greeks or a defeat for the Persians — that came later.
The Persians ‘won’ at Thermopylae!
Ὦ ξεῖν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
Ō ksein’, angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tēide
keimetha tois keinōn rhēmasi peithomenoi.
“Stranger, announce to the Spartans that here
We lie, having fulfilled their orders.” (from wiki)
Leonidas’ ‘Molon Lave’ the story of the ’300′ and the above quotation have all really been lost in the dustbins of history I suppose, while treason has become a virtue, and Xerxis of Persia has been transformed into an idol of bravery and military genious and an example for all leaders and military commanders to follow (certainly for Mahmoud Ahmedinejad).
Absolutely, the Persians ‘won’ the battle at Thermopylae and didn’t lose the war of conquering Greece. It’s the new pc history lesson, and a new version in the greatness of Persia and the lowlessness of Classical Greece: the Glory of the East and the disgrace of the West.
Not in my Western Civ class.
Of course, you do realize that King Alfred did not actually drive the Danes out of England? All he did (and likely all he intended on doing) was defend the Saxon Kingdom of Wessex. The end result of his campaigns confirmed Danish presence in Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria, an area called the Danelaw. The Danes remained a force in Saxon England right up to the end, even to providing some of the Kinga (Cnute, anyone?). Eastern England was a meld of Saxon and Danish culture and ethnicity.
Kipling had a point, but lets not exagerate Alfred’s accomplishments to make it.
You will notice that I referred to Alfred’s “efforts.” I did not claim that Alfred drove the Danes out.
1. Like other commenters, I wonder what Palin’s picture has to with the post. Is it an oversight, or has Sarah Palin become the face of Western Civilization?
2. I have not followed the execrable Righthaven copyright trolls in detail, but my understanding is that serious legal reverses have been inflicted on them. Afaik Clayton Cramer’s blog, having settled with Righthaven, did not participate in that effort.
Being a mild sort, I might well have done the same under the circumstances. I do not know Cramer’s situation well enough to form an opinion about his decision to settle.
Nevertheless, put me down as surprised that ‘pay no danegeld’ is Cramer’s choice of topic.
My blog did not get sued. The Armed Citizen blog, which I had only minimal involvement with by then, was sued. Unfortunately, our attorneys told us that it was going to cost at least $30,000 to get to court–during which time Righthaven was going to keep the meter running with constant discovery motions to make it very expensive. Now, if we could have found some attorneys interested in fighting this battle, that would have been fine. But unfortunately, not being Democratic Underground, we were out of luck. The prospect of spending $30,000 at least to go to court was pretty terrifying.
“my understanding is that serious legal reverses have been inflicted on them.”
Yes, by attorneys who were prepared to fight them, pro bono, out of a principled concern for justice. We could not find such. Of course, we weren’t Democratic Underground.
There’s another pernicious example of Dane-geld, which has ruled our universities and much of our politics since the onslaught of the barbarians of the 60s.
That’s the payment made by surrendering your principles, and your carefully worked-out governing proposals, at the first screech of ‘Racism’! The barbarians employing that screech have never gone away, and won’t until a critical mass learns to articulate and cogently defend the proper reply of ‘Bullshit’! It’s never too soon to start.
“Why do most colleges require students to take a semester (sometimes two) of Western civilization?”
Nonsense! Very few colleges require Western Civ. these days.
“Why do most colleges require students to take a semester (sometimes two) of Western civilization?”
In short, to get their students to hate the “racist” “colonialist” “profiteering” “Christian fundamentalist” evil “West.”
Well, sort of.
I am sure that there professors that do that. They probably are not using either of the texts that I have used for this class, which is actually quite fair to present the complexity, both good and bad, of Western Civ.
I’m sure you do Clayton, that’s why I’ve always enjoyed your articles here at PJM. They’re always balanced, at least as much as expected in a forum such as this. Cheers.
#10 Rightmindedmom
While the presence of Sarah’s picture has been discussed above; let me say that I do not think it was a “bait and switch”. I speak as a TEA Party supporter, who after the budget fiasco this weekend only remains tethered to the Republican party by hope that Sarah will run. I went to the link to the YouTube video of President Reagan reading “Danegeld” during the 1985 hijacking crisis. My first thought when it ended was, “God I wish we had a real President again.”. And the picture of Governor Palin suddenly seemed very right. Of course, YMMV.
Subotai Bahadur
Take this from a former supporter of hers: it’s now paifully clear she’s not educated enough and smart enough to be President. Moreover, her associates are not what a President should associate with.
We’ve had a moron and a fraud already President since Jan 2009. We don’t need another uneducated and idiotic person in the Oval Office.
As much as it hurts to say it, I think she is not ready to be President. I think highly of Sarah Palin, but we need some extremely well-educated and experienced for the job. She was certainly more qualified than the Zero in 2008. She may still be more qualified than the Zero is today. We need someone much more qualified than that, however, and I see no way for a democracy to pick someone that qualified. This country is headed into deep and serious trouble.
BTW, Clayton; I’m sure we all appreciate very much your willingness to interact at length with your audience in your blogs. Certainly, I do. Further, i fully agree with your assessment of SP.
We are ruled by liars pimps and thieves. There is no politician alive in America with the backbone or the cajones needed to do the right thing. All they care about is getting re-elected to sell their influence, and staying knee-deep in gin and hookers.
Guy Fawkes was onto something.
You are engaging in stereotyping. There are politicians with courage and character (such as Sarah Palin). There are politicians with considerable intelligence and education (such as Newt Gingrich, Ph.D.) Unfortunately, finding a politician who has both of these characteristics is a bit difficult.
“…and staying knee-deep in gin and hookers.”
Can you translate that into Pelosi-ese?
I’ve heard that ‘danegeld’ quote so many times in recent years it’s sickening.
You Americans aren’t paying the Danegeld: you’re the Danes…
Exactly, we’re the Danes; which is why we have all this plunder… wait, debt.
Did the Danes have massive debt from their plunder? Dang, we’re really bad at this “Dane” thing aren’t we.
Probably killing the women and raping the cattle too… that or maybe you’re not as accurate as you think you are with this accusation. Wouldn’t the raiding plunderers have something to show for their plundering?
Apparently you don’t understand this quote you’ve heard a million times if you think the US are the Danes.
So before you make another stupid comment go do some studying.
We must be the anti-Danes. Instead of invading Iraq to settle our people there, and demanding payment to leave, we spent vast quantities of blood and treasure to remove a monster who made such heavy use of torture that the systems of human intelligence that worked against the Soviet bloc did not work there.
Clayton E. Cramer
we need some extremely well-educated and experienced for the job.
and
There are politicians with courage and character (such as Sarah Palin). There are politicians with considerable intelligence and education (such as Newt Gingrich, Ph.D.) Unfortunately, finding a politician who has both of these characteristics is a bit difficult.
With all due respect, we are up to our gluteal musculature in Republican politicians who have been to all the right schools, and have been in politics to the exclusion of any contact with reality for their entire lives. And they have watched this country being destroyed for the last two years. Not one of them has stood up and fought back. Not one of them has the support of any large portion of the American public. Not one of them has put themselves on the line in the 2010 elections that gave us a chance to save this country.
I am not anti-education. But I am painfully aware that modern education, especially in the Ivy League, has nothing to do with learning and everything to do with credentialing in the Political Class. I think it can be honestly said that in the last two generations, one would be hard pressed to find an American political, economic, fiscal, or strategic disaster that has not been the product of the Ivy League. The “Right Schools” have not worked out for us all that well.
Going back to the second quote, having a politician with “considerable intelligence and education” does no good if his loyalty is to the Political Class and he will not fight, really fight, for the country. We are in the midst of a “Cold Civil War” for the survival of the United States as a Constitutional Republic. We have a plethora of Pope’s, Burnside’s, and McClellan’s. They won’t fight back against the enemy [and they ARE the enemy, and in a very real sense not our countrymen which subject will require a far longer discussion], and frequently consider themselves closer to that enemy than to the American people.
We need a Grant, a Sherman, a Sheridan. For over 20 years, Republican leaders have promised all sorts of things, called for the rank and file to rally; and every time have cut and run away from confrontation at the last minute. This budget deal, which now it seems not only went from $100 billion in cuts [specifically promised, on video, at CPAC by Boehner] got reduced to $61 billion, and a final deal was made that got us none of the policy initiatives that we wanted, even the small ones, and only putative cuts of $38 billion. Unfortunately for Boehner, it has come out that because of double counting and smoke and mirrors it may be only $8 billion and it locked in the Left’s priorities.
The educated and experienced political professionals will not fight, and value collegiality over victory every time. They espouse a public morality that they do not live. And by that I do not mean mere sexual fidelity. I mean honor and integrity. I want someone whose head is on straight, whose values reflect the American people and not the Political Class; and who has a record of fighting and not getting along and going along with the destruction of the Republic.
My father came to this country, 12 years old and alone from China, just in time for the Depression. At that time, we Chinese were literally NOT human beings under American law. He got his citizenship after 1943 when the law changed by fighting across Europe with Patton’s 3rd Army. He built several businesses before he died. He raised me, and I have had a career as a Peace Officer. I have raised my kids. Of the 4 that survived [I lost a son]; one has two degrees, one is about to graduate with her bachelors, and my son is working 3 jobs and going to school working on his bachelors. The daughter who has not been to college owns her own business. I believe in education, and having each generation living better than the last.
If this country is going to be destroyed, wasting what my father and I have built in our lives, and endangering my children; I will not have that end come about through an excess of civility. And I want the politicians I support to believe that too.
No politician has done more to actively resist, and mobilize resistance, to Obama and the Left in the last two years than Sarah Palin. She may only have a degree from a state school. Fine. My dad had a 6th grade Chinese education. He made up for his educational lack by having his priorities right, and drive and determination.
She has more experience, especially executive experience, than Obama. However, unlike Obama and most politicians of both parties today; she is on the side of this country and its people. I do not share her Christian faith. But I see how her faith informs her character and gives her a center and sense of ethics that goes far beyond the normal political public worship and private mendacity.
Competence, when being judged, has to specify competence in what. The experienced Republican politicians are competent and practiced in compromising away any principles they may have once had, betraying their own base, and at waffling at all times. Governor Palin has shown executive competence in governance, sufficient to satisfy me, shown fidelity to her principles in her life and politics, and has taken the lead in fighting the Left.
I do not claim omniscience. I am willing to listen to others. If you or others here can suggest “an educated and experienced” Republican politician who one can trust to lead and who is capable of mobilizing the fight against the Left, I am more than happy to hear arguments for them.
You go into the election with the politicians you have, not an ideal but non-existent perfect candidate you want. After what we have seen so far of the gorm-less, goolie-less collection of capons that is proud to consider themselves the leadership of the Institutional Republican Party; I’ll support Governor Palin. YMMV.
Subotai Bahadur
There’s a big difference between a father like your father, the goodness of your father’s work and accomplishments (and yours), and being President of the US. My neighboor is a common sense, hard working, successful business woman, with a husband and four kids. I’m very happy to have her and her family as my neighboor, but I hardly think of her as being capable of becoming President of the US.
Because SP is an attractive woman, that suggests people still in her camp today have an infatuation with her, in spite all evidence that she isn’t have presidential timber. Get over it; that’s all.
In my “…that she isn’t have presidential…” take out ‘have.’
My point in comparing Palin and Gingrich was precisely to point out that the politicians with character and courage are often the ones that are unacceptable to the elite. If my choice is Palin vs. Gingrich, I know that I would prefer Palin. I just keep hoping that we can get someone a bit more experienced.
I was disappointed that the financial problems caused her to resign the governorship: that would have been great experience for her in 2012. But I also know (from personal experience) that if you are not a multimillionaire, you can’t afford to engage in recreational litigation, and the lawsuits being filed to push her out of office were going to destroy Gov. Palin personally. (That’s why they were being filed, of course.)
I am curious to know how your father became a citizen in 1943. The change to U.S. naturalization law to allow non-white immigrants to become citizens was in 1952. (Interestingly enough, this provision, which dates back to the 1795 Naturalization Act, was originally aimed not at Asians, but at making sure that African slaves did not apply for citizenship.) Was there some procedure that allowed non-whites in the military to become citizens earlier than this?
who is “afred”?
Clayton E. Cramer
The bar to citizenship was not because of regular immigration law, but because of “extraterritorial rights” that the US had with China, dating from the mid-1800′s. Very short form:
1) During the peace negotiations between Britain and China at the end of the Opium War, an American diplomat named Caleb Cushing [our ambassador to the Chinese Empire] was there as an observer, and suggested what became known as “Extraterritoriality”, which the Brits adopted and made part of the treaty. The theory was that since no Westerner could ever get a fair trial in a Chinese court under Chinese law; that therefore all Westerners were exempt from and outside of Chinese law while in China. It was left to the home government to punish any crimes that they committed in China. In order to make it “fair”, all Chinese who were in Western countries were placed outside the coverage and protection of Western law. Functionally, they could be robbed, murdered, attacked, or anything and could not appeal to local law for protection. It may have worked out equitably if there were Chinese gunboats and Marines on the Mississippi the way there were Western gunboats and Marines on China’s rivers. The European powers were in general less strict in applying Extraterritoriality, in large part because they had far fewer Chinese there.
The United States did not take part in demanding territorial concessions from China while carving up spheres of influence in China like the European powers and Japan did. But they did insist on full access to all trade and political concessions extorted from China. Thus, Extraterritoriality became part of US law when Cushing included it into the Treaty of Wanghia in 1844, which first defined US-Chinese relations.
One reason that there were “Tongs” acting as government in Chinatowns was that there was no access to the local government. By the way, “Tongs” are not criminal organizations. They are more like fraternal organizations based on clan, area of origin, and sometimes occupation. “Triads”, however, make the freaking Mafia look like a day care center. They are criminal gangs literally thousands of years old [and still exist]. What are called “Tong Wars” should be called “Triad Wars”.
2) By 1941, all the powers except the US had given up their Extraterritoriality rights in China; even Japan who was conquering and pillaging China.
3) Within a couple hours drive from where I am now, is the former Pueblo Army Air Force Base, where the AAF was training crews to fly the B-24 bomber. In 1943 the Nationalist Chinese government was trying to form several groups of B-24′s to help defend China from the Japanese. The crews were being trained in Pueblo. The locals treated them with the same contempt and hostility [and occasional violence] that they were used to treating their own Chinese.
4) The Chinese government screamed bloody murder, pointing out that we were allies trying to fight a common enemy; and wanted to know why their people were being treated that way. As part of the solution, Roosevelt’s State Department waived the US’s Extraterritoriality Rights in 1943. Chinese in this country became human beings and were covered by American law.
5) My grandfather was smarter than the average Chinese peasant. Our family was “middle class” owning some land and sharecropping some other. My grandfather counted sons, and land and realized that there was not enough to give each son enough land to support a family. My dad was the youngest; and so he was told that instead of land, my grandfather would get him to America to try to make his way. My dad came to NY from Hong Kong [family is from Guangdong Province just up the Pearl River] steerage on a freighter. 12 years old, alone, not speaking English.
When he landed, the Tong our family was affiliated with took him in, found him a place to stay, insisted he work in a restaurant [and thus he learned the business], and did the best thing that they could do for him. They insisted that he learn English, because he was alone in this country without family.
Americans would use Chinese, just not consider them people. When the law changed, he was a food service supervisor at the old Lowry AAF base in its original location in what is now the Park Hill neighborhood in Denver. Keep in mind that soldiering is a young man’s game [18-20 mostly], and how old he was [he actually arrived in 1927]. As soon as we were people under American law, he [and a lot of Chinese in this country] enlisted in the Army.
I never knew the details of his military service before he died, because he would not talk about the war. I found his records and pictures of him in service after his last heart attack. Not to brag, but his records show that the Army wanted to make him a cook, and he fought his way into the combat infantry. He qualified Expert on damn near every infantry weapon we had. And he was one of the first non-white squad leaders [SGT] in the combat infantry; fighting his way across Europe. And yes, he was decorated. And though I did not find out about it until years after his death when I was researching his division; his company liberated the last Death Camp in Nazi hands at Gunzkirchen, Austria less than 48 hours before the German surrender.
After the war there were a number of bills passed by Congress granting citizenship to limited numbers of foreign nationals fighting for the US. He was covered by one of those. He earned his citizenship in 1943-45, getting it finally granted in 1945. I got my citizenship the easy way, being fortunate enough to be born here some years later.
Subotai Bahadur
Your name hardly lokks like a Hun Chinese name. What is it, if I may ask?
Your father had a choice when he came over here, didn’t he? It was because he thought he would be better off here than staying there.
Your narrative sounds to me like whining, when it shouldn’t be, and you sound a bit bitter when you shouldn’t. This country offerred your grandfather, father and you far more than what all three of you offerred her. This comment isn’t meant to be negative, but just a comment given from an outsider (i.e., someone outside your family with a more objective and less sentimental viewpoint).
Your statement: “My grandfather was smarter than the average Chinese peasant” shows you’re very arrogant and condescending. Here in America it’s considered very tacky talking like that, especially in a forum such as this.
This is fascinating, but I think a little oversimplified. There are a lot of anti-Chinese laws passed in the 19th century, especially in California. (For example: the article of the 1879 California Constitution simply titled, “The Chinese” which is truly astonishing to read.) However, there are a number of anti-Chinese laws that are struck down by state and federal courts, such as the 1870 Cubic Air Ordinance and many others, as violations of equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. (Of course, many others were not struck down.) It does show that Chinese at least theoretically, and sometimes actually did enjoy the protection of U.S. law.
There is no question that in some parts of the U.S., prevailing sentiment against non-whites meant that it did no good to have a theoretical right, because the court system was not going to enforce those rights.
“Your name hardly lokks like a Hun Chinese name. What is it, if I may ask?”
Assuming you meant “looks” & “Han,” I’ll try answering in his stead. “Subothai” is Mongol, & “Bahadur” is a Persian take on another Central Asian title. SB is the *screen name* of a guy whom I do not otherwise know but who is perhaps the most talented writer (unless you prefer pure polemic) on a certain uncompromising “right-wing” blog which I also frequent.
“Your narrative sounds to me like whining, when it shouldn’t be, and you sound a bit bitter when you shouldn’t.”
I’d say he reserves bitterness for the enemies of freedom–including those in the GOP.
“Your statement: “My grandfather was smarter than the average Chinese peasant” shows you’re very arrogant and condescending. Here in America it’s considered very tacky talking like that, especially in a forum such as this.”
And *your* snap judgment brings to mind a taunt about rubber & glue.