Pacifist Spain Abandons NATO Allies in Kosovo
What confounds many Spaniards is the abrupt timing of Zapatero’s move. Why now? If Zapatero was genuinely concerned about Spain’s continued presence in Kosovo, why did he not withdraw Spanish troops the moment Kosovo declared independence? Had he seized the opportunity then, Spain would have had a credible explanation for its position as well as the necessary political cover to bring the troops home.
Spaniards are also wondering why Zapatero failed to consult the Spanish parliament about Kosovo. After all, his government made changes to the National Defense Law, making it mandatory for the executive branch to confer with the legislative branch on military missions abroad. Zapatero said the changes were designed to increase transparency on military matters.
But longtime observers of Zapatero say his foreign policy decisions are always driven by domestic politics. And with Spain deep in recession and saddled with the highest unemployment rate in Europe, Zapatero is understandably worried about elections in June, when Spanish voters choose their representatives to the European Parliament.
During regional elections in March, the opposition People’s Party defeated the Socialists in the north-western coastal region of Galicia. Political analysts say the PP’s victory points to a future nationwide trend, and the Socialists are clearly worried; as the bad economic news piles up in Spain, Zapatero’s poll numbers are dropping fast.
By pulling out of Kosovo, therefore, Zapatero seems to be throwing a bone to voters on the far left, who are militantly pacifist and virulently opposed to Spain’s membership in NATO. They are also anti-capitalist and upset about Zapatero’s economic stimulus plan, which they say only serves to extend the life of a capitalist system they hate so much.
But Zapatero’s political calculations have backfired spectacularly. And in the process, Spain’s international credibility — and its global ambitions — have suffered a major blow.
Spanish officials had had high hopes for a closer relationship with the U.S. government after the election of President Barack Obama. Spain’s bilateral relationship with the United States has been in a deep freeze ever since 2004, when Zapatero abruptly withdrew Spanish troops from Iraq. Many Spaniards are baffled that Zapatero would make the same mistake all over again.
The diplomatic fiasco could not have come at a more inopportune moment for Spain. In less than two weeks, Obama is set to travel to Europe for a series of meetings with European leaders. Spanish newspapers have already been chock full of articles about how Zapatero will have no less than four opportunities to shake hands with “the most powerful man in the world” and to try to rebuild Spain’s broken relationship with America. Has Zapatero now jeopardized his chances of becoming Obama’s new best friend?
I wasn’t aware that Spain had any credibility left since they ran out of Iraq without firing a shot. I’d rather have local farmers with hunting rifles guarding my flank than Spanish troops. (Not a knock against the troops themselves but their cowardly, treacherous political leaders)
I promised myself not to return to Spain till Mr. Shoemaker exits, hopefully soon, as I always enjoy visiting.
What a joke this Ms. Chacon Defense Minister is, only President Shoemaker could have appointed her to that post, pregnant or not.
Spain – is there a more decadent society in the West? The only democracy in the world to have declared unconditional surrender to Al-Quaeda. Posturing over Glbraltar (ceded under a lawful Treaty to the UK and British by the will of its citizens) while retaining colonies in North Africa.
My beloved Spain,handed over to cretinous amateurish,60′s retreads by a hysterical mob,sounds a lot like the USA doen’t it?
Hold on a moment, ignoring the fact that this is a most awful Spanish Socialist government, the basic principal that Spain is racting to is totally and utterly correct in that a soveriegn state was dismembered to enable a minority to create a new state. Now while I detest Zapatero I happen to think that Spain is actually correct on the issue with Kosovo. The key thing is the last paragraph in this report.
For example as a Brit in the early 90′s I had a leftie Frenchie give me a tirade about Northern Ireland, after he finished, I looked him in the eye and started giving him chapter and verse on Corsica on exactly the same basis, he started arguing etc., my wifes father a Socialist, but a disillusioned one afterwards congratulated me on making this other person realise that he was a hyprocrite. Focus on the principal as stated at the end of this article, yes Spain is acting badly, Zapatero is awful, but in terms of Kosovo they are correct.
Spain is absolutely right about Kosovo. Albanians are not American or European friends, they are just pretending to achieve their goals. Four of Fort Dix terrorists are Albanian Muslims from the area and there will be more. It is time for the West to wake up and stop supporting the terrorists.
Although I can’t stand the current Spanish Prime Minister as he is a Quisling and anti-Semite, I cannot bring myself to criticize his decision to leave Kosovo. I never thought we have gotten involved in deciding which group of thugs should rule the place but my sympathies were with the Serbs rather then the narco-terrorist Albanians.
Kosovo, like Bosnia, is still a ticking ethnic time bomb that will explode once NATO leaves as it inevitably must.
Paul Casey: Do you play professional golf?
Gee, more socialists that have no idea how to run a country? Who would have guessed? High unemployment, no respect for their military, no respect for their allies, where have I heard these complaints before?
The only real question that I have is, how do these dumb-asses keep getting into power all over the place? I am never disappointed in humanities ability to vote in the most corrupt, incompetent leadership for itself time and time again.
Making a pacifist the Minister of Defense tells you just about all that you need to know about Spain.
#7 – Nope. I doubt that his agent would permit him to write foam-flecked rants on right-wing message boards, as I am inclined to do.
Paul:
The real Paul Casey is known for foam flecked rants directed at Americans.
Anyone who believes soon to be restored to islamanazism’s fold, “Spain,” to be ready to be accepted into the Civilized World is likely to also believe that the definitive Frankenstein of international bureaucracies, “NATO,” continues to exist for any purpose other than that of seeing to the maximum rate of transfer of the lives’ energies, blood and treasure of America’s most creative, innovative, industrious and productive to the defense and support of Europe’s most indolent, decadent and degenerate.
Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles CalifOBAMAcated 90028
Whether the government withdrew troops for domestic political reasons or not Spain was correct not to recognise the ‘independence’ of the narco pseudo-state of Kosovo. Indeed I’m surprised the Spanish Socialists even care about the principle of national sovereignty which it is upholding (unlike the US, UK, and others who have recognised Kosovo).
I happen to think that Spain is actually correct on the issue with Kosovo. The key thing is the last paragraph in this report.
I also find their reasonment logical, but the main cause for this retreat is, that Spain is broke and archi-broke, and can’t afford anymore to support Nato supplies,especially for a country whith which they she couldn’t agree on the very independence.
Now, I don’t see what you mean with your quotation of Corsica and northern Ireland, could you develop ?
Considering the lack of real help from NATO allies in Afghanistan, the US should do likewise.
jerryofva – You’ll hear none of that from me. I’d gladly emigrate to the USA and take the oath if only I could get used to your beer.
I worked in Kosovo. Most of the troops ought to be pulled out. All they are doing is driving around and burning up gasoline. True, ethnic violence will probably flare up but we can’t stay there indefinitely. Those people have long memories and still stew about 15th century grudges.
Spain might have good financial reasons for bugging out but it doesn’t look good. It sends a signal that NATO is a paper tiger.
Now, I don’t see what you mean with your quotation of Corsica and northern Ireland, could you develop?
He obviously meant it was hypocritical for a Frenchman to criticise the British for being in Northern Ireland whilst the French are still in Corsica, or for that matter Brittany, the Basque country, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Tahiti, New Caledonia, etc.
Paul:
We have some good beers now. Sam Adams, Lienenkugals to name two.
This is just another example of how unreliable our NATO “allies” are. Aside for Great Britain (who actually supported us when it counted, in both Iraq and Afghanistan), the rest of NATO really isn’t worth the trouble anymore. They are great at talking an issue to death, but they are always hard-pressed to back up any of their talk with military action. The NATO contribution to Afghanistan is almost laughable given the populations of each of the NATO nations. Sending in a couple of hundred troops, most of which are not allowed to actually fight (as in the case of the German troops), does not a reliable alliance make. In fact, there are probably almost as many New York City police officers as there are NATO troops stationed in Afghanistan, which shows you just how few NATO troops are stationed in Afghanistan. And every year our Secretary of State has to go crawling, crawling back to NATO asking for more troops and aircraft (primarily helicopters) for the war in Afghanistan. This is degrading to the United States and it shows that most of Europe is far more concerned in their social-welfare benefits than in their military committments. We really should just give up and go home, back to the United States. The Soviet Union is gone and, militarily, Russia is only a shadow of its former self. Eastern Europe is firmly in the Western camp and has no desire to form close ties with Russia. So why keep NATO going? Kosovo is also a lot closer to Rome than it is to New York, so if the Europeans want to stay there for 10 (yes, that’s right, 10) years, let them do it. Let them shoulder the burden for once. Let them take responsibility for their own continent. Let them actually pay for their own defense and stop getting a free ride from the American taxpayer for shouldering the bulk of NATO’s defense. It is time our troops go home. We should be winding down our committment in Europe so that we can focus our attention on Afghanistan. The sooner we complete our mission in Afghanistan (whatever that may be now, since the Obama administration doesn’t seem to have a clue as to how to end the conflict there), the better off we will be as a nation. And the next time the Europeans get themselves engulfed in yet another war, we can sit back and just say, “You handle it this time around. We’re done bailing you bums out.”
Coisty, that’s not knowing that the Corsicans massively voted to stay “french” in a lately referandum, hey, otherwise how could they get their allocations, and above of it, who is paying for their wellfares ? as so for our other islands, around where foreign proxy populations illegally infiltrate in order to become french welfared
The only disconnect I sense in the article is that our State Department under obama is upset about this nonsense? I would have thought that Spain’s decision here was right down his alley: your allies can’t count on you, you disrespect your allies, you join up with your opponents to undercut previous commitments: what part of this picture is NOT obama-like?
In 1973 I arrived in Madrid. I was 10. I didn’t leave till 1980, and no, my family was neither part of the embassy mission nor in the Airforce. (Torrejon AFB).
Spaniards are a strange lot. They’re very proud to be Spaniards, and their history and their connections to South and Central America (though there’s no love lost between Spaniards and Mexicans, I don’t care how many Mexican Telenovella they air on RTVE). They’re also very isolationist.
In 1992, I was visiting family in Madrid, it was during the olympics and the only other thing on TV (other than the comedy shows about fat Americans) was the constant barrage of news from the Balkans. It was very new at the time, and the U.S. was talking about going in.
Spain was dead set against it. You see, the Spaniards do have a bit of memory, no matter what anyone says. They remember their own Civil War, which is still very much a part of the Spanish Psyche. They know how connected it was to events in the early 20th Century, icluding World War 1.
I cannot and will not forgive Spaniards for the aftermath of the Atocha Bombings. That was a very real act of mass cowardice.
But they never wanted to be in the Balkans. This I can forgive them for.
Marie Claude: Coisty, that’s not knowing that the Corsicans massively voted to stay “french” in a lately referandum
Uh…I think you are totally missing the point David H was making. Unless, of course, votes in Corsica to remain French are more sacred than votes in Northern Ireland to remain British!
Cowards!! Like all of Europe…….
Well, the Spanish people committed one of the most blatent and transparently cowardly acts of appeasement back in 2004, handing their country over to hardcore socialists just like the islamists wanted them to. Who needs them? They’re worse than the French.
IT’s OBAMAS FAULT !!!!
IT’s OBAMAS FAULT !! HE’s ALIENATING OUR ALLIES !!
Seriously folks, it’s been 10years and a far cry from the 1 year promised by Clintoon.
If there was a phoney war, designed to take the heat off from a phoney…this was it.
Frank, I wish you not to meet a torero
Spain will rejoin the Ummah and then she will defend herself. Give it time.
And Spain is typical of European thought, they are just a few years ahead of the pack. Cowards all.
Coisty, Corse and Northern Ireland had a different fate :
1768, 15th of mai, Geneova gave away Corsica to the French, through a Versailles agreement. Louis XV was king of France then.
Where is Franco when you need him?
Marie Claude, Corsica was an independent Republic from 1755, but was unable to eject the Genoans from the coastal cities, in 1764 Corsica was purchased secretly (interesting that) from the Genoans by France and incorporated into France in 1770, there was a civil war in 1768 to 1769.
So we have an independent nation with pockets of its territory held by Genoa who sold the whole lot to France. Come on Marie Claude, your digging yourself a hole, in my view Corsica has more right then Kosovo to be an independent state which is why France should have said no like Spain, Northern Ireland is a good reason for the UK to have said no too.
Stop taking that as an anti-France comment, it was an anti hypocrisy comment. And cosity is spot on in terms of 24., there was a vote in Northern Ireland where the majority voted to stay British, is that any less valid than Corsica? That hypocrite ignored the vote in Northern Ireland causing my French father in law to roll his eyes in frustration. I don’t know whether Corsica had been given a vote when I had that discussion, it was fun though, he was red in the face when he realised what an idiot he was…, lighten up, I guess your a little bit touchy because the French are really the most strident in imposing the language on their subject people, though now they seem to recognising that Arabic is the language of the future as stated by Sarkozy the Socialist…, so in the face of the rioting might of the Muslims they have surrendered their great culture to them.
I wish the French had the same passion in dealing with the Muslims as they deal with Corsica and other regions…
And those knocking France, please note that France has troops in Afghanistan and are losing soldiers in combat, yes they are not in the more danagerous areas like the UK and the USA and Canadians, but they are doing their part and hurting, so lay off the cowards bit, they are not and the French soldiers have a lot of respect for your soldiers from what I have read.
Lat me make a correction, I abhor President Shoemaker and what he represents, also how he was elected just because that bomb by Al Qaeda (a masterful bomb indeed, for Rajoy was posed to win in every poll just a week before that unfaithful election). Since then, gay marriage approved, immigration out of control, you name it, but…it is correct the Kosovo thing was a mistake.
Bombing the Serbs was a betrayal of European history by Clinton. A betrayal of the victory of Poitier by Charlemagne and the lifting of the siege of Vienna by Charles V. They should had left the Serbs alone, as the Muslims of Bosnia were converts from the same race, traitors to their race, and as such are despised throughout the Balkans. Now Saudi Wahhabi has built a huge mosque in Bosnia, and they pay 500 Euros to each woman that dons the long Islamic robe. Albanians in Kosovo are birds of the same flock.
Miami:
As much as I disdain the Kosovars I have to say that they are not in the pockets of the Wahabis. They have their own traditions and revenue sources. They are the European Continent’s drug supplier. No need to suck up to Riad.
David, I know Corsica history, but you wouldn’t find one Corsican today that wants Corsica’s independance, excepted those of the terrorist front, which represent a handle in percentage, idem for the Brittany front of independance. Now, as far as corsican language is concerned, they can practice it on their island, but not on France metropole, idem in Brittany, there are still some parts where it is practiced, though not quit the original celtish one, but the universitary’s created one
I wasn’t taking your comment as an anti-french comment, just I like to add some “precisions”
though now they seem to recognising that Arabic is the language of the future as stated by Sarkozy the Socialist…, so in the face of the rioting might of the Muslims they have surrendered their great culture to them.
It still shows that you finally understood litle of our sociological realities, we have the most stubborn lefties that never would give up its secular prerogatives and or advantages, and it is in contradiction of what you said above,”the French are really the most strident in imposing the language on their subject people”
Besides, UK’s communities situation is far worst.
Anyway, thanks for your support
MiamaMan, I’m with you on that one the Serbs should have handle the issue of Kossovo alone
Marie Claude of course I undestand that the majority of people in Corsica want to stay French.
Marie Claude I also understand that being French made no distinction between colour and race, you speak French and accept the Republic then you are French, that is why of all the countries with large Muslim populations France was the best prepared to withstand the wave of extremism that has come with Islam, even though the accusation of racism and the like was thrown around with wild and stupid abandon by others.
Now that Sarkozy and the UMP are now flirting with multi-culturism, positive discrimination and the like that have put the UK in a much worse situation than France as you quite rightly point out, should be resisted by all true French people.
The way that the other languages were snuffed out in France is interesting history and aluded to in your comment on being allowed to practice it. My lament is that this present government is now making the same mistake as all the other European countries, it is losing its pride and certainty in being French. No I undestand the French and their system a lot more than perhaps you realise. Like many in Europe the French under Sarkozy are joining the English and many others in Europe as the whores of Islam…
I agree that they should get out of Kosovo. That’s not the point, however. One must follow the treaties and honor one’s word. They should have done this through NATO, even if it were to be unilateral. “We need to pull out of Kosovo. There is no support for staying, and we can no longer afford the indulgence. Please support us in our choice to withdraw.” Then, if NATO “allows” it, things would be less damaged. There’d be some grumbling, but nothing like this. It was poorly handled.
yes, but Sarkozy is failing on this policy, he is facing the left resistance, that has solid roots
39. Marc Malone, Spaniards, last time I was there, which admittedly has been a long time, have never been particularly wild about being a part of NATO either. I think what we might be looking at is the Spanish President getting political capitol out of sticking it to the U.S. through NATO, but that’s simply conjecture.
Frankly, I do not support our being there and never have. The region supplied the bulk of NAZI soldiers garnered from Bosnia by Haj Amin Al Husseini, and Bosnian Muslims were not exactly innocent in all this. In Kosovo is a primary staging area for Heroine traffiking into Europe. And then there’s THIS! We fought on the wrong side.
It’s been over 550 years since the area fell to Islam, and it’s been a war zone ever since with Islam as the primary agitator. IMHO, we should let the people there finish this one way or the other and quit playing God.
jerryofva…I was referring as Saudi Wahhabi influence in Bosnia, not Kosovo. I understand about the source of revenue in the latter being illegal drugs. Still, the NATO policy in Kosovo is a continuation of the Clinton’s meddling in the affairs of Bosnia by bombing Serbia, a mistake.
Spanish are strange people, there is no doubt about that. I know, as my blood is from there, from Galicia in northwestern Spain, there is a Celtic influence in that part and folklore is sometimes similar to the Scots and Irish, the main instrument the Gaita or Bagpipe (by the way, this same instrument is called in Bulgaria – Rodope Mountains – Gaida, same Celtic root).
Queer Mr. Shoemaker (Zapatero) is from Valladolid in Castilla. Rajoy, who lost in 2004 because of the Al Qaeda bomb, is Galician from Santiago de Compostela. The Caudillo Franco was from la Corunna, also Galicia. Now no one in Spain gives Franco an iota of credit for what they have, but the truth is different.
The communist influence in Spain has always been very strong since the times of Dolores Ibarruri (La Pasionaria) and the Civil War.
Mr. Shoemaker has literally changed the landscape there. Who would have though that in Catholic Spain the queers would marry legally? On immigration, a disaster, before him there was nothing compared to other parts of Western Europe, now 10% of the population is foreign, and already religious and/or foreign enclaves have formed in large cities with consequent getthoization and crime upsurge.
Hopefully the Popular Party will take charge again and boot out the Shoemaker.
41. wancow
“It’s been over 550 years since the area fell to Islam, and it’s been a war zone ever since with Islam as the primary agitator. IMHO, we should let the people there finish this one way or the other and quit playing God.”
You are totally right. The video you point out in your post about Muslim atrocities in Bosnia is not surprising. Differently from Albanians (or Kosovans), notice Muslims in Bosnia are not racially different from Serbs, Croats, or even Macedonians and Bulgarians. These are descendants from converts to the Turkish rule, as when you converted to Islam you ceased being a Dhimmi and took superior status. This was very important as in the 1700′s and even 1800′s even a rich person (Chorbayi) had to dismount a horse and bow to a Muslim who went by walking.
Then the Turks had a very bad militia, mainly made of these converts, called the Bashi Bozouk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashi-bozouk. They usually were let loose on rebel towns while drunk and committed incredible atrocities, the best example being the town of Batak in Bulgaria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batak,_Bulgaria, where all children currently are taken to see the bones of the 5,000 massacred in the church. They never forget. The report by a Scot newsman in 1878 aroused the ire of Victor Hugo in France who denounced the cowardice of Europe for not helping the Bulgarians.
Anyhow, I am sure if they would have let the Serbs alone, things would be different now. All Balkan Slavs were in favor of the Serbs, but hillbilly Clinton had another quixotic idea, rooted in his great knowledge of history acquired while chasing squirts in Little Rock.
The only allies the US might be able to count
on are in the anglosphere period. The rest of
the world is anti-american, it is their mother’s
milk. This includes their emigrants as well.
The only time they applaud the US is when the
US acts in concert with their desires. The
Muslim support for the US in Kosovo for example.
This does not buy any long term good will or
extend to other issues where they oppose US
interests.
The popularity of Obama overseas rests on the
feelings that he will conform to their desires
and not act according to US interests. The
mistake is made that they will abandon their
interests and conform to US ones because Obama
is a swell guy unlike Bush.
Kosovo was a stupid war. Milosevic was a
bastard but then so was everyone else. It
was only one result of a failed communist federal
regime and it is not over. We also set up a mini-Yugoslavia in Bosnia-really smart.
MiamiMan: “my blood is from there, from Galicia in northwestern Spain”
Okay, let me guess: you’re not only from Miami, but you’re also Cpanish by way of Cuba… right?
Fidel is also a Gallego
They’re a lot like the Scotts, feisty and non-conformist.
Re: BillyJeff’s quixotic quest… dead on. Thanks for the education regarding Hugo.
MiamiMan, maybe you can bring me up to date: back in the day (post Franco), it was mostly PSOE under Phelipe Gonzalez that held sway. PCE, (Partida Comnumista Española) was the outright communist party, but they had no traction at the time, and still seemed very marginalized in ’92… As I regall, Manuel Fraga was also fellow Gallego, he lead the conservative party, but I can’t remember the name of it…
My question to you is this, who’s in power, PSOE or PCE or someone else?
Spaniards don’t have the guts to defend themselves. In the back of their minds, Spaniards believe the USA will come to their worthless rescue. Think again socialist cowards! Obama is a Marxist coward too. Go back to killing defenseless bulls in the ring and pretend you are brave. The bulls are brave but Spaniards are yellow, knee-crawlers.
45. Wancow
Yep, you copied me right, by way of Cuba, only thing one grandpa was American born in ole USA.
I travel often in the Balkans by another family connection. Presently unemployed and collecting from the Gov with lots of time to write BS.
Yep, dirty Castro is a Gallego too, man.
Slick Willy, right, what a character man.
As for me, I am Miama Man not Miami, please. Presently Miami is not very pleasant. I associate better with the old gringos from Flagler up to 1960 who colonized the area and called it: MIAMA. They mostly came from Jew York (I mean New York) like Flagler.
46. Wancow
My pleasure. Them spics and Gallegos are a real bunch, make no mistake.
Fellow Gallego Franco, may his soul be remembered. I am a Franco man, period, and have had more than one fracas in Spain because of it.
Queer Mr. Shoemaker (Zapatero) that dour, dry, humor-senseless Castillian from Valladolid is the head of the state and party PSOE, which is the one in power.
The PCE (Partido Comunista) is the 3rd largest party after the PSOE and the PP (Partido Popular) of Aznar and Rajoy.
We need Franco to reincarnate and get them Spics in line again. Bring back the cry of the Spanish Legion under Franco and Millan: Viva la Muerte! (Long Live Death).
MiamaMan, but Spain was one of the poorest countries in Europe as long as Franco lived, besideS I also go often to Spain, about twice a year, I wouldn’t say that they are weak minded now, just that their appetite for life is free now. Because of this short delay after Franco’s death, they had no enough time to base solidly their finances, the money crisis hits them more than any other country in Europe, it’s may be the major reason why they leave Kosovo
Maybe we could send over Hillary Clinton, or even better, Obambi himself, to make it all better.
#16. You can buy a lot of imported beers here. What’s you’re favorite?
Sorry, I meant ‘your’ in #51
50. Marianne
Come on, Marianne, get your history straight. Spain was one of the poorest countries in Europe way before Franco, at the beginning and middle of the 20th century.
Franco was able to keep her out of 2nd World War (Hitler after his meeting with Franco at Hendaye said he would go first to the dentist to get all his teeth pulled that deal with Franco again).
Then Franco, little by little, contributed to the modernization and industrialization of Spain, which before his death could claim to be the second manufacturer of Ford automobiles in the world, after the US.
Alas, the current King of Spain was 100% picked by Franco and groomed for his position over another relative that was really in line for the crown.
It is true, Franco was a tyrant and a fascist remnant of the Europe between the 2 wars.
No, Spaniards are not weak minded at all, they are just capricious people.
The reason for the money crisis, and better the real state bubble, is basically because Spain does not possess, like the US for example, a broad economy, and they are accustomed to put all their eggs in one or a few baskets, for a while they were the poster child of growth based on a real estate bubble that burst a year ago propelling unemployment to almost 17%. They have calculated that it will take billions of Euros to diversify their economy.
Joke of the day: A Gallego arrives in Cuba in 1920, goes to the country, buys a bullock, takes a picture nest to the bullock to send it to his family in Galicia, and write on the back of the picture: Mama, the one of the right is me!
MiamaMan: “No, Spaniards are not weak minded at all, they are just capricious people.”
Hence: a little Rimsky-Korsakov
“Adolf Hitler’s Germany was one of the foreign countries most involved in the conflict, contributing economic loans as well as several thousand troops to the Nationalist cause. Hitler’s involvement in the Spanish war was consistent with a larger Nazi foreign policy aimed at diverting British and French attention from Central and Eastern Europe so that he would be unhindered in his plans for eastern expansion”
http://www.janus.umd.edu/Feb2002/spanish%20civ%20war%20tom/01.html
Franco was able to keep her out of 2nd World War (Hitler after his meeting with Franco at Hendaye said he would go first to the dentist to get all his teeth pulled that deal with Franco again).
Franco was redevable for his place from Nazy Germany, thus a neutral alliee that provided merchandises, minerals, free harbour accesses to Nazy Germany.
for the economical situation of Francish Spain, I got to get stats back, but hey had one of the poorest life earnings of this era,one of the highest percentage of anaphalbetism… Franco annexed Basque Land which had an autonomy statut for decades, because the industry was mainly situated there. If Spain was such a rich country as you advocate, then why as many Spanish emigrated to France, Belgium, Switzerland… as muslims nowadays ?
we had exactly the same number of spanish immigrants as Maghrebin
agree for the spanish money crisis analyse though
BTW, I’m Marie Claude, just I thought that my nic couldn’t pass trough, it still doesn’t in another topic
“If Spain was such a rich country as you advocate, then why as many Spanish emigrated to France, Belgium, Switzerland”
I think he admitted it was not a rich country at the time, and had not been since before the French occupied Spain under Napoleon.
Post Franco Spain boomed somewhere between 1980 and 1992. Madrid was like a different place. I do, however, disagree with MiamaMan on Franco. I happen to think he was the best they could hope for out of the Civil War. He was as benevolent a dictator as there has been, but he was still a dictator.
Ma Cherie Marie Claude!
Hitler asked Franco to allow Germans troops through Spain to attack Gibraltar. Franco answer to Hitler was to remember what had happened to Napoleon in Spain.
As Monsieur Wancow stated, I already agreed that Spain was poor under Franco, but when he started governing, the country was devastated. At that time, there was also large emigration from Portugal with no Franco, and a large one too from Sicily and Calabria to northern Italy.
As for Monsieur Wancow, please read what I wrote: “It is true, Franco was a tyrant and a fascist remnant of the Europe between the 2 wars.” I know his limitations.
Voilà!
wancow, right, I read it too quick, I still had his previous post in mind
well poor since Napoleon ? umm, yes we got some Goya painting in Louvre museum, dunno if Napoleon brought them
I think this is more due to the spanish kings that focused on latin America for keeping their richnesses
Spanish throne was vacuant around 1870, that that Bismark wanted to give it to a preussian noble, that France opposed, cuz she didn’t want to be encircled by ennemies, but thus it degenerate into a war in France, not in Spain
MiamaMan
“Hitler asked Franco to allow Germans troops through Spain to attack Gibraltar. Franco answer to Hitler was to remember what had happened to Napoleon in Spain.”
hey, one can’t say he was an idiot, But he rather didn’t want to taste the english bombing and their invincible armada
All this back-talking between numbers one, two, and three fools above, doesn’t get to the core problem. Spaniards are “soft”. They like to kill brave bulls, but they don’t have the “you know what” (aka “balls”) to defend themselves. Sorry cowards, but sometimes the truth hurts.
uh, still Bill, yours are on your key-board I believe
MiamaMan: “As for Monsieur Wancow, please read what I wrote: “It is true, Franco was a tyrant and a fascist remnant of the Europe between the 2 wars.” I know his limitations.”
In that case we don’t disagree :p
#62 Marie Claude: Yes, “Big Willie” and “Big Willie Junior” are on my key-board. Do you want me to send you a digital photo?
#61
Spaniards aren’t cowards, nevertheless they are soft. Majority of spanish (and european) population is over forty and old people have to take care of themselves. Their feebleness informs their decisions even though they may not notice that.