Oy Canada
The Canadian national anthem, “O Canada,” affirms of our country that “we stand on guard for thee,” a noble sentiment that I suspect is often more honored in the breach than the observance. For “standing on guard” means not only defending our shores from invading armies — what invading armies? — but from those amongst us who would unravel the fabric of civil life. Though the country remains economically viable and maintains a decent standard of living, we could do a much better job at keeping the national tapestry intact, especially when it comes to the strand representing our Jewish citizens.
Several recent events make it hard to resist the impression that anti-Semitism, often masking itself as anti-Zionism — the difference between the two has become negligible — continues to flourish in Canada. I have space here to mention only a few such occasions. The United Church of Canada, the largest Protestant confession in the country, has tabled motions to divest from companies involved in building Israel’s security fence or that provide “products, services, or technology” to Israel. And at every major convention, UCC poohbahs, strutting about like lord high auditors in a clerical version of The Mikado, never fail to introduce anti-Israeli boycott resolutions. Naturally, the church has not seriously considered divesting from real human rights offenders and undeniably oppressive regimes, of which there are no scarcity.
Although the divestment motions are annually prorogued (though not defeated), this does not impede church leaders from reintroducing them with enteric regularity at every new session in the hope that they will one day be passed. Church spokesman Bruce Gregersen did not rule out the possibility of a boycott as, in his words, “a means to ending the occupation” — a highly problematic concept in light of the authentic historical context. These facilitators of anti-Israeli propaganda might profit from what University of Haifa professor Steven Plaut calls “an antibiotic of familiarity with Middle East history,” a possible cure for the triple whammy of ignorance, malice, and sophistry.
There are many people, it appears, who are desperately in need of this medicine. When the Royal Ontario Museum hosted an exhibition of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the summer of this year, protests erupted in Toronto sponsored by various organizations, like Palestine House and the Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid, which consider the scrolls as “Palestinian artifacts.” This is to be expected, of course, but what is more disquieting is that individual citizens also threw in their lot with the demonstrators. One such incident which made the news involved the owner of a popular French bistro, Le Select, who posted a memo on the restaurant’s website decrying Israelis as looters. The underlying reason for such objections, I’d surmise, is that these ancient texts confirm beyond the slightest fashionable doubt that the Jewish presence in the Holy Land is historically incontestable. Such people seem to think that the Hebrew Bible is an Islamic patrimony.
One recalls as well the comments made on December 12, 2002, by David Ahenakew, then chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. According to this authority, Hitler was right to have “fried” six million Jews. At his trial in April 2005 for inciting public hatred, he stated for the court that he stood by his earlier comments. It took a full two years for Mr. Ahenakew to have his membership in the Order of Canada revoked by the Office of the Governor General. Yet, even though he was finally drummed out of the Order, following a brief resignation Mr. Ahenakew subsequently resumed his position as a senator with the Federation and has now won his court appeal. On February 23, 2009, a Saskatchewan judge found him not guilty of incitement to hatred.
It is only fair to acknowledge here that the Conservative government has reversed its predecessor’s anti-Israel voting pattern at the United Nations, for which it has been roundly taken to task by the likes of the Globe and Mail’s Jeffrey Simpson, Canada’s most pontificating journalist, who accuses PM Stephen Harper, Canada’s most intelligent politician, of “align[ing] the country with the preferences of the Canada-Israel Committee.” This is to the administration’s credit and a sign that it is at least moving in the right direction, which may well turn out to be temporary should a Liberal administration return to power. The Liberals would likely revert to business as usual. This is called being an “honest broker.”
And one must be thankful, too, for that platoon of brave and honorable Canadians, like National Post columnists Barbara Kay, Robert Fulford, and George Jonas; David Warren at the Ottawa Citizen; national security consultant David Harris of the Canadian Coalition for Democracies; Point de bascule founder Marc Lebuis; and authors Kathy Shaidle, Howard Rotberg, Jamie Glazov, Ezra Levant, and Mark Steyn, who have taken a principled stand against the spreading infection of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism within the body politic.
Nevertheless, the beat — or the beating — goes on. The Ontario branch of the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE), effectively violating its institutional mandate, tabled a resolution to support organizations and unions engaged in the BDS (boycott, divestment, sanctions) movement against Israel. Ditto the Canadian Postal Workers Union (CPWU), which seems less concerned with delivering the mail to Canadians than with delivering pronunciamentos to Israelis, giving a whole new meaning to the idiom “going postal.”
Given that the Tories are the only party not infected with Nazi Jew-hatred, this portends real problems.
Liberal Party leader Ignatieff in particular is a vile Jew-hater. I guess he inherited that from his Russian nobility ancestors.
A Canada free of Quebec and all the frothing Jew-hatred among the French would also help Jews.
The absolute disease of anti-semitism is incurable.
However, it could be held at bay IF the powers that be were not immoral cowards AND political whores.
It is shamefully clear that two converging points also add to the disease. The fact that Muslims/Islamists are barbaric in their outrage, and the fact that Jews are the polar opposite, is what contributes to the outrages described by David.
Imagine, just imagine what would happen IF the otherwise law abiding Jews in Canada-as well as elsewhere-were to say ENOUGH, and then act on it. What would happen IF they were to march en masse at every anti-semitic hatefest, brandishing their own fiery rhetoric which scared the Jew haters witless? What IF they were to storm EVERY stage which gave a platform to Islamists and their co-conspirators?
I suspect that the immoral left would at the very least eschew many of these dastardly events, leaving the Islamists alone to fend off the pissed off Jews!
Canadians have long considered themselves morally superior, especially to the United States. Now Israel has been added to that list. This is just another demonstration of the expression of quintessential, core Canadian values that make Canada which she is today. Canada can’t help but keep being Canada.
Don’t you get tired of Canadians whose $### never stinks?
No different from metrosexual yuppie PC/MC yalies except they’re spread out over a large area and not well read.
Checking in to note that Adina’s approach, storming the barricades with loud words, would not work, even if there were Canadian Jews with the guts to do it.
The only way to deal with savages is with savagery. We lost much the day Rav Kahane, z”l, hy”d, died. The concept of barzél yisraél, using strength against savagery, has been forgotten entirely in North America. North American Jews are bereft of courage, both in the English and French senses of the word.
Anti-semitism, no matter in what country, is a very serious matter. It is not getting the press it needs and people simply don’t realize that it is becoming a problem world-wide. All of us, whether we be Jewish or not, had better take a stand now! This is wrong, and furthermore, uncivilized.
Eric R. What’s the scoop on Iggy? I am not aware of that side of him.
Ruvy # 5 – Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I am not aiming for just words, but the threat to more action-whatever it takes. After all, the Islamic barbarians at our gates are acting on their words, as they cause mayhem for all who cross them.
Turnabout IS fair play.
Rabbi Kahane certainly was ahead of his time, a ‘prophet’ of sorts, as his clarion call went unheeded and we are at the precipice.
I followed the travesty that was the Canadian Human Rights Courts and it showed a clear anti-jew sentiment in Canada while at the same time bending over for militant and violent muslims. I’m not sure what Canadian media is like but if it is anything like the pro-muslim anti-jew European media its not surprising that there would be an anti-jew movement.
The term anti-semite while encompassing jews is not unique to jews and also includes any christians, muslims, atheists, ect. from south west Asia.
So much for our plans to vacation next year in Canada.
The Jewish population of Canada has always been small in comparison to that of the U.S, but they have contributed greatly in terms of the academic, economic and intellectual aspects of Canadian society. The Moslem population has only been visible in Canada since 9/11. Prior to that date, I never saw, or heard of one single Moslem in my city, Toronto. Now they are almost 3% of the population and growing. So too has the violence, anti-semitic incidents, honor killings and hate-spewed speeches coming from their mosques and community leaders. The combination of a growing Islamic population and a politically correct and multicultural-driven society such as Canada has led to the increase of anti-semitism here, especially on our campuses. Would someone please tell me what are the benefits of Moslems being allowed to enter Western countries?
11: I don’t oppose orderly migration of muslims, many of whom seem to work hard and well and obey the law. But I too have a tough time grasping the wisdom of voluntarily resettling large numbers of indigestable poor and deeply religious muslim immigrants in the US, all with generous benefits of course. In Minnesota, somali cab drivers decided they would not drive people with dogs, alcohol, etc. Elsewhere, they insisted that its against their religion to remove the veil or hajib to be photographed for a driver’s license. And these are the things its easy to fix. Moving on to hate filled speech, mosques that are gathering places for antisemetic invective….please tell me what the benefit is when you find out.
Who knew that anti-semitism in Canada is similar to anti-semitism in other countries? Of course it is. Past Liberal governments cultivated Palestinian sympathies. These were also the people who invented and sold a stereotyped Canada whose history began with Pierre Trudeau. This Canada was full of timid PC, anti-American citizens with a leftist, entitlement philosophy.
The real Canada that I have lived in for almost 40 years is robust and confident. The people are anything but timid,are self sufficient, have a long and proud history, see the US as a friend and often scorn PC. This Canada also has a federal government that makes a point of being a friend to Israel. I see more happening in Canada to counter anti-semitism than in, say, the UK. I also see Jews doing something about it, like Ezra Levant who confronted, ridiculed and neutered the outrageous Canadian Human Rights Commission.
Anti-semitism will never go away. Currently it is in vogue with the “progressive left” and is growing, which serves the Muslim world very nicely. How many Jews are there in my home town? I have no idea. Meanwhile, a few blocks from the Pacific Ocean I can have breakfast in a great restaurant which flaunts it’s Jewishness, has “Israel” throughout it’s menu and gets a truckload of customers who are not Jews.
you said in above
”
And one must be thankful, too, for that platoon of brave and honorable Canadians, like National Post columnists Barbara Kay, Robert Fulford, and George Jonas; David Warren at the Ottawa Citizen; national security consultant David Harris of the Canadian Coalition for Democracies; Point de bascule founder Marc Lebuis; and authors Kathy Shaidle, Howard Rotberg, Jamie Glazov, Ezra Levant, and Mark Steyn, who have taken a principled stand against the spreading infection of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism within the body politic.
”
those list are too brave to support Israel and Jewish and got pay and donated by them again that is fine with me who care every body need market something to make money even politician made market to make money
but can we say those above list also
named
are too braved to talk too much
hate and slander or wrong information to cause Canadian automatically hate Muslim Canadian as well
then in balance of defence of justice
either both parties must talk reasonable to the point or talk both nonsense ” brave” to each otehr slander I mean
Now the solution is:
what is funny I just observor sometimes I saw my point take people attention or sometimes I am too ” brave” to say what Muslim may think of what you or when you talking about us I am sure restricted muslim do not like or have habit to reply you back for security reasons
the funn and hate is not land or land rubbery for sake of new make money or relgion it is matter of not make sense when I look at Palstinian and Israel hwo many time they shake hand for peace and lead to hand shake for death later and too many civilan for both parties are left on ground for me
this is commitment like marriage when you agree with contrac you must have god intention to do it even if you may not have all the time to stay with one person return commitment
these people playing and this play is reason for it and when some one not like to do peace since without peace make them more profit
all goes to profit and power then security of people this is a fact and must go in revers that security is first then profit then who can manage this to run this power game not vice versa nobody hate jewish they hate play around and think all other people are stupid and not know they are playing around with them .ethic.
plus I have no problems talk to jewish or I did alot and not do wrong while I do not apprecite you telling me how to put the sentence for you to like me while I do not put my opionion to you like me or earse me or tell me what funny word I can say I only have opionion and based on fact and I will say since I did change world for good not for sake of power or money but also I like if I can help people if i can human are human even army are human not toy in hand of poltician must respect human right
#13 Western Canadian,
Can you tell me what restaurant that is? I would like to check it out.
if you prefer: truepeers@gmail.com
The parallels with the rise of anti Semitism in the thirties and its rise today in Canada is eerily similar. The Liberal and NDP parties and their supporters and policies being one of the main supporters of anything anti Israel.
In the familiar fashion of the gutless lib/left they cannot do something face to face so they pick on the state.
new – got tired of spewing your incoherent nonsense at SDA so now you have to do it here? Look folks, “new” is definitely a scroll-by. Even if you are interested in reading what he has to say, you won’t be able to make any sense of it.
Regarding Iggy (Michael Ignatief) and his noble ancestry, google Nikolai Pavlovich Ignatiev. Iggy is his great-grandson.
Please reassure Solway that we don’t have to worry about a _krystallnacht_ on Bloor Street anytime soon, okay?
The United Church never even came close to adopting an “anti-Israel” position. The parishioners would have turfed them, double quick, if they did.
And if Canada is anti-semitic, why is Steyn its most popular journalist? Why is Ezra a folk hero? (Not based on their looks, obviously. Sorry guys, but it’s true.)
And Mackenzie King was a spiritualist flake – a perfectly representative PM for Canada at the time, but someone who would be well outside the political mainstream **cough** Natural Law Party **cough** today.
And what people who don’t live on Planet Toronto have to understand about York University is that it’s Canada’s UCLA: big, rich, with a few good departments but mostly mediocre to bad, and most importantly, prone to faddish media-centred behaviour, and with a student body that is mostly quite trendy and, because of this, usually very dumb.
אני מתנצל עדינה, סליחה! את צודקת מאה אחוז
Please forgive me, Adina. You are 100% right.
Adina, your suggestion is their aim, they’re inviting it, and they’d gladly reciprocate, 10 fold, because they can and want to, that’s the reality. Why storm a wasps nest when you can warn others of the dangers, if they don’t believe you, let them get stung.
David Solway – I’ll strongly disagree with your merger of anti-zionism and anti-semitism. I’m certainly anti-zionist but I also certainly not anti-semitic, and I clearly can differentiate the two.
Jews are not necessarily defined by being a citizen of Israel, but, in my view, by their religion. The two are not identical. The Judaic religion has a long, deep, beautiful and noble identity and can stand on its own, in any country, without any geographic territorial requirement.
I also think that you are magnifying the anti-semitic actions in Canada, by your merger of those who critique Israeli politics and defining such criticism as ‘anti-semitic’ rather than criticism of Israeli politics.
Certainly, there ARE anti-Israeli political actions, by CUPE, by the United Church and others. So? Any political entity has to be open to critique. What about all the anti-American demonstrations that have taken place?
I don’t see that Canada is a hotbed of anti-semitism. The kangaroo courts that are the Human Rights Commissions are not the handmaiden of anti-semitism,and the Canadian Jewish Congress strongly supports this HRC! Just read what Ezra Levant say about the bond between the two.
Eric R: Liberal Party leader Ignatieff in particular is a vile Jew-hater. I guess he inherited that from his Russian nobility ancestors.
I’m no fan of Ignatieff. I want him humiliated in the next election. But it is wild speculation to say his Russian ancestors make him anti-Semitic – or that he is a “vile Jew-hater” as you irresponsibly put it.
If his ancestry were that important he would not have supported the 1999 American-led atrocities against Orthodox Christian Serbia. Ignatieff not only supported the bombing campaign but was among the its most passionate public advocates in Britain. If you know anything about Russians (which I doubt) you will know that pro-Serbianism is more important to them than anything involving Jews, both pro or con.
Ignatieff’s sympathy for the Lebanese during the 2006 conflict with Israel had more to do with Quebec politics. The Liberals need to regain their strength in Quebec.
Eric R: …the Tories are the only party not infected with Nazi Jew-hatred
Yet how likely are Canadian Jews to vote Tory in the next election? About as likely as they were to vote GOP in the US last year.
marcopohlo: Please reassure Solway that we don’t have to worry about a _krystallnacht_ on Bloor Street anytime soon, okay?
He won’t be convinced. To this day the Canadian Jewish Congress re-prints articles insisting that Canada faced a serious Nazi threat in the 1960s therefore the need to regulate speech!
My parents were German Jewish refugees in London, UK, where I was born. In the 1970′s and early 1980′s I took a long look at how the UK was selling itself to the sheiks of the Middle East — decided I didn’t like the look of folks in desert regalia in Kensington, Bayswater and West Finchley — and decided that Canada was my future, and Toronto my city. I became a naturalized Canadian citizen in the mid 1970′s.
After 20 years or so of business experience in Toronto, I realized that (a) the demographics of Canada had shifted; (see #11 and #9 above); that certainly the Liberals had shifted — witness the purge of folks like Herb Grey and Chaviva Hosek from government — and that by and large the Canadian Jewish establishment had too close a relationship with the government of the day to be effective in protecting the Jewish community. My suspicions were confirmed when reports leaked from that (a) multiculturalism is a failure; (b) Canada provides funding for a lot of terrorists abroad, Arab and others; (c) the Canadian Revenue people tried for years to remove charitable status from Magen David Adom and other organizations while permitting tax free status for among others, Hamas; (d) it became the kiss of death in polite society following 9/11 to breathe a word of criticism about a certain religion of peace; (e) anti-Americanism and anti-Zionism of the european style became accepted currency among many Canadians, even among the Jewish population.
I believe that that Canadian Jews should cast their eyes at the Jews of England and France, learn from those communities and prepare their exit strategy. The golden age of Canadian Jewry — the country of “none is too many”, circa 1938, is over. At an age when others are enjoying their grand-children I am happy to be starting a new life in my third county, the USA.
ETAB: “The Judaic religion has a long, deep, beautiful and noble identity and can stand on its own, in any country, without any geographic territorial requirement.”
Why does the merger of anti-zionism and anti-semitism make YOU feel uncomfortable?
Why does magnifying the anti-semitic actions in Canada make YOU feel uncomfortable?
Never mind, I know why invalidating anti-Israeli political actions, by CUPE, by the United Church and others, make YOU feel comfortable?
David P – the reason why I reject a merger of zionism and Judaism is because I don’t think that the Judaic religion is specific to a geographic territory. It stands on its own as an emotional and intellectual construct of man’s relation to spirituality,and to the reality of living as a mortal and moral entity.
Equally, I believe that a political construct, a nation, is not and cannot be also a religious construct. That is, its activities can’t be defined as determined by or determining of, a religion. So, I consider that if I critique Israel’s actions (whether the critique is positive or negative)..I am critiquing its political actions. Not the religion.
So, I reject any statement that says that IF I critique Israel THEN, I am also an anti-semite. That’s nonsense.
I reject any distortion of facts, so, I suggest that the author’s outline of anti-semitic actions in Canada is magnified beyond reality.
I don’t think that you can, or ought to, presume to know whether or not I am ‘comfortable’ with CUPE and United Church public statements against Israel. Actually, I’m not, but for my own reasons.
First, I think that a union has absolutely no right to make political statements of any kind. A union (and I dislike unions very much) has only one purpose: to assist its member workers in their work relation with their employer. [And I think the workers would do far better without a union but that’s a different issue![. A union has no right to speak for its members on non-union matters. After all, its members have the right to make up their own minds and speak for themselves.
The United Church, from what I can gather, seems to have little to do with the metaphyical and seems primarily to be a leftist organization. I’m conservative, in case you are interested. So, I am sceptical of the church’s comments.
But that wasn’t my original point – which I probably muddied by including the terms of ‘union’ and ‘church’. My point was only that Israel can’t be immune to criticism of its political activities.
OK?
#23 -HOW DID YOU GET INTO THE U.S.? I went to an immigration lawyer since the Green Card lottery is now closed to Canadians.I was informed that the only way is to marry an American or pay big bucks.
I would like to ask those so called “anti-zionists,” versus anti-semitics, that since Zionism is simply the national liberation movement of the Jewish PEOPLE, they mention ANY OTHER nation whose existence they oppose?
If you can not, and I am sure you do not, then you ARE a racist and anti-semite.
You have just singled out only the JEWISH nation for opposition and THAT is the very definition of anti-semitism…
So admit who you are and get help, or wallow in hatred and idiotcy…
Ian – I suggest that you stick to the issues and not move into insults. Furthermore, these have to be as YOU or I understand them.
For example, I disagree with you that zionism is a ‘national liberation movement of the Jewish people’. That’s your view.
I think that Judaism is a religion and not a ‘people’ .I consider such a definition akin to the Third Reich definition of Jews. Jews are not a race. They are not an ethnic group, for I’m sure you know that many different ethnicities make up the people who follow Judaism. And one doesn’t need liberation as a Jew.
I consider that a political state should be secular and I support the separation of church and state. Therefore, I reject the Islamic nations’ that merge church and state.
I don’t oppose the nation of Israel. Or any nation. I oppose the merger of church and state in any nation.
No, your definition of anti-semitism is invalid. In common parlance (I am sidelining that most arab peoples are ethically defined as semites)…anti-semitism means a bigoted rejection of Jews, i.e., people who are members of the Judaic religion. It has nothing to do with critiquing Israel. That’s YOUR definition of anti-semitism…critiquing Israel! I certainly disagree.
I don’t confine Judaism to any geographic territory. The Third Reich did just that; it rejected the right of members of the Jewish faith to also be citizens of the nation of Germany. Since you seem to agree with the concept of a geographic attribute to the Judaic religion, does this mean that you would have supported the Third Riech’s rejection of Jews in their territory?
What about the Islamic nations. Do you support their rejection of Jews and Christians in their geographic territory? I don’t. Do you support the fact that they have merged ‘church and state’; that their laws are Sharia rather than civic, and that their ‘citizens’ must all be Islamic? I disagree with this.
A religion is not an ethnic group; it is not a ‘race’; it is an emotional and intellectual set of beliefs and behaviour about man’s relation to the spiritual, to his mortality and his morality.
As such, Judaism has no geographic confinement. It has existed in all parts of this globe and should continue to do so. I disagree with bonding a religion to a geographic terrain. And above all, I separate church and state. A nation should be open to all religions. Religion ought to be private not ‘nationalized’.
I think the era of tribalism is over, and religion and the political, which are merged in a tribal society..ought to be separated in a modern world.
the war against the jews and israel are world wide.
canada is a little more quiet about it and the media like the USA doesn’t want to alienate the muslims (and it is not only the muslims who wish to destroy israel and the jews).
the anti-jew anti-israel plague is a 24 hour a day thing, like rust on a car …slowly eating away at it.
it starts with education and the media. and the enemy has a generational head start.
To #26. Why should the Jews of Canada be any different than others?
Within the last 30 years, look at the shrinkage: Jews in Iran, destroyed. Jews in Venezuela — the early adopters left years ago, and the rest are struggling. Jewish remnants in Cuba, another sad story. Jews in the uK — through intermarriage and exodus, the community is half the size of the 1960′s. Jews in the FSU walked as soon as they could get out. Jews in former Yugoslav states … Jews in the “stan” states of central Asia…
Why should the Jews of Bathurst Street be any different? Once you get to Keele or Victoria Park, Toronto is a different city than it was in 1980, 1990 or 2001.
Make your plans, keep the suitcase packed and under the bed, metaphorically, if not in actuality. (this from my late Mother, who exited Vienna, April 1938, a month after Anschluss). Her brother and mother didn’t have valid passports….
“I don’t think that the Judaic religion is specific to a geographic territory. It stands on its own as an emotional and intellectual construct of man’s relation to spirituality,and to the reality of living as a mortal and moral entity.”
What an enormous crock. Almost everywhere else in the world religion and nationality are tied together, especially in the vast Muslim world. But it’s OK to demonize Israel, a tiny sliver of land providing a refuge for the 0.25% of the world’s population that is Jewish – not to mention the intimate 4000-year historical and spiritual connection between Jews and that land.
Gary – does this mean that you reject the right of people, of any religion, to live anywhere in the world?
Could you tell us where, ‘almost everywhere in the world’ your statement that ‘religion and nationality are tied together’? Do you have to be Christian to live in France? Canada? USA? Indeed, anywhere in the west?
Do you agree with the tribalism of the Muslim world? That’s what it is – tribalism. You have to be a member of the tribe to live there. They are quite hostile to non-tribal peoples, as I’m sure you must be aware. Do you approve?
Does this mean that all Christians must live..where? And all Muslims must live in the Middle East, and all Jews must live in Israel? What about the other religions? Are they bonded to a land base?
And must they forbid or inhibit the peoples of other religions who live in that same land?
And must their political system by also ruled by their religion? I’m sure you’ve read the Qu’ran and Hadiths and what they say about Others. Do you approve of such a mentality?
Christians also have a long history with that ‘same sliver of land’ but that doesn’t mean that they are setting up a political nation in that area whose laws are religious rather than secular. Only Israel and the Muslim states do that. And..what are the results?
ETAB: “I think that Judaism is a religion and not a ‘people’ .I consider such a definition akin to the Third Reich definition of Jews.”
Dividing us is their goal, to separate Israeli from Jewish, driving a wedge between diaspora and Eretz Yisrael. Once were estranged from one another we become easier to conquer, leading diaspora to seek comfort in the arms of their garroters.
It doesn’t matter what you ‘THINK’ individually, collective perception labels us Jews as a people, culture, religion, race, ethnicity all combined into one indivisible entity, Jewish.
Which brings me to my next point, what makes you think you know better?
What makes you believe it’s your ‘right’ to critique the way in which Jews secure themselves in their own land, Israel?
You have no formal military service in the IDF, you didn’t raise your children in the region, then send them off to war. It’s very likely you haven’t lost any relatives, friends or acquaintances to terrorism, who were murdered for being Jewish. Chances are you have not a working understanding of the topographical, security, economic and social challenges the Israeli’s face. Yet on the very limited information you have, mostly from the tainted and propagandist MSM, your critical of how 5 million Jews defend themselves against 500 million savages who’ve obligated and pledged to ensure the destruction of the Jewish State.
5. Ruvy: “The only way to deal with savages is with savagery. We lost much the day Rav Kahane, z”l, hy”d, died…. North American Jews are bereft of courage, both in the English and French senses of the word.”
“Ruvy” is obviously a plant from J Street to malign Israeli settlers and recruit new members.
David P – I’m not into identity politics; i.e. I think that all members of our species have the capacity to be rational, logical, emotional, and to learn. That means that I reject any insistence that:
You must be black to comment on black issues;
you must be Christian to comment..
you must be Jewish or more specifically, an Israeli citizen… etc.
Of course it matters what I, and you, think individually. Groups don’t think; only individuals think.
And I don’t think it’s logical to use fallacious arguments such as ‘ad populum’ (what do the majority say?) ..After all, at one time, the Third Reich popular view of Jews was that they were a race, a genetic typology, and were ‘scum’. Did such a collective perception have any relation with Truth?
Who says I know better? Or that you know better? As I said before, we are each expressing our opinions, our own conclusions about the situation. I hope our opinions are based on facts and reason but we may not be able to persuade each other of the validity of each view.
Again,I reject ‘identity’ politics. And I will not therefore discuss my heritage, or my past experience – of which you know absolutey nothing – for such experiences and past do not innately give me a right, or cause me to lose my rights..to think and comment.
Nor can you conclude that my information is limited and from the MSM (you are very, very wrong on that!). Please don’t speculate; stick to the facts.
And I reject any political system that does not separate church and state. Such systems are found in Israel and all the Arab states. I think these are dangerou and unsuited to the modern global world.
Therefore, I reject the Islamic merger of state and religion; the Qu’ran, as you probably know, actually says little about the metaphysical and is primarily a socioeconomic and political ideology…suited only for a militant 7th c tribe.
My main argument and how I began on this thread is that a rejection of zionism OR (and please note this ‘or’) a criticism of Israeli politics cannot in any logical sense be defined as an act of anti-semitism.
What was the reaction of some posters? To move into a defense of Israel as a nation. But who was arguing about this? I certainly wasn’t. My point was only that I reject church-state mergers; that I feel that Israel as a political entity is open to criticism, and I have no criticism of the Judaic religion. Don’t merge the two.
Wherever radical leftists rule, there lives anti- Semitism. Too bad, Canada. You had such promise. But don’t forget what’s next, because anti-Semites always turn out to be anti-human at the end of the day. That means you, eh?
Sorry ETAB,
The unbridled criticism, slander and blood libels leveled at Israel is disproportionate beyond ANY rational. If other nations were held to similar standards or even fractionally admonished for the exact same behavior, I’d concur. But they aren’t, Israel is all alone on the stage, absorbing condemnations at an institutionalized rate that supersedes any warranted discontent. Why? Because, its a Jewish State!
The problems in Canada is drug and dirty prostituation women in Canada
I think majority of blogg owner in US UK and Canada are also using drugs or kind of smoking weed and some police need to check them too all hate talker is not because their brain is working well.
DO not blame it to Muslim.
regular ordinary people can be Jewish Muslim or christian may not involve any politic has no idea what the media are plan to do but they may get those all lie story
Well, that’s your opinion David P. I don’t agree that the criticism of Israel is just because it is a Jewish state. I think that any criticism of Israel is immediately denied by both Israel and many Jews (but not all!)as having no validity and defined as ‘just anti-semitism’.
When I say ‘not all’, I refer to the many Israelis who criticize their government, and the many Jews in other parts of the world who critically debate Israeli policies.
One could equally wonder about the ‘unbridled criticism etc’ against the USA – and that’s hardly a religious basis.
Certainly, there is a lot of attention on Israel and the ME, but is that just because Israel is also a Jewish state? Or is it because of the unresolved issue of the Palestinian people and the occupation? That’s quite a unique situation in the world. Is there any comparable situation?
And the emerging-from-tribalism status of the Islamic nations…which are emerging from their repressive tribalism with great conflict and difficulty. That’s unique to the area, and these Islamic states are trying to set up a red herring of ‘Israel-Palestine’ as causal of unrest, ignoring that their own denial of freedom and economic/political power to their own peoples is the basic cause of unrest.
So I’m afraid I’m unconvinced that the criticisms of Israel are unrelated to its own political activities and rest solely within its Jewish identity. Anti-zionism does not mean anti-semitism.
ETAB
I clearly understand your point about identity politics, unfortunately their are no other predominantly Jewish nations to compare Israel with in order to support or invalidate your position. However there are dozens of Christian nations, or nations who identify themselves as majority Christian. There are also a variety Buddhist & Hindu nations, as well as an abundance of Muslim nations, who coincidentally form a voting block in the U.N. to systematically ridicule, condemn, harass, and slander the only Jewish nation. They aren’t driven, motivated or inspired by Israel’s action, but it’s very existence, and have historically demonstrated this for centuries.
David P.
I think ETAB is just egging you on and having fun with you.
Look at his statement,
“Certainly, there is a lot of attention on Israel and the ME, but is that just because Israel is also a Jewish state? Or is it because of the unresolved issue of the Palestinian people and the occupation? That’s quite a unique situation in the world. Is there any comparable situation?”
Only someone completely ignorant of the world and obsessed with Israel would seriously claim that the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is “unique” or not “comparable” to any other situation in the world – outside of the fact that it is exaggerated all out of proportion because the Jews are involved.
Now that Saudi Arabia and Yemen are carrying out massive indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations in the rebel provinces in Northern Yemen, I wonder where Goldstone and the UN Human Rights commission are? Haven’t heard much from Amnesty International or Human Rights watch either.
David P.
I don’t think that anyone can clearly conclude that the Christian nations are criticizing Israel because of any Christian beliefs. That is, I don’t think you can link their criticisms of Israeli political actions as due to their Christian majority population.
You are by such a statement denying that one can, on the basis of reason/facts alone, legitimately crticize Israeli politics. That doesn’t seem to be a viable opinion. Criticism can’t be only religious bias.
With regard to the Islamic nations, it’s a different situation. As I’m sure you know, the Qu’ran and hadiths are quite explicit in their rejection of other religions, both Judaic and Christian. And, a key problem is that the Islamic nations, like Israel, merge ‘church and state’. So right there, is a volatile situation.
I’ve long maintained that the Islamic nations don’t give a heck about Palestine and indeed, don’t really want a democratic Islamic state in their midst..as an example which their own repressed peoples could try to follow. They don’t want a Palestinian state.
I think that the Islamic states are trying to prevent the development of modernism in their own states, Trying to prevent a middle class, rather than the elite tribe, having the economic and political power. They’ve used a repressive Islamism, theocratic totalitarianism and repression of freedom of speech etc.. to do this.
AND – they’ve set up Israel-Palestine as a red herring to divert anger of their people against their own repressve states…to the West and Israel. The real problem with the Islamic states is their own repressive tribalism, their refusal to move to a civic rather than tribal political mode..and give the economic and politcal power to the people.
And..this movt to a civic model, would, I hope, enable Islam to modernize. At the moment, Islam is a tribal ideology…filled with rejection of any and all Other Peoples. A militant rejection.
Israel? I think the smart thing to have done..right from the beginning..would be to have enabled a Palestinian state. Confront the Islamic states..by enabling a democratic Palestinian state. BUT…with its economy totally embedded with the Israeli economy.
Then you’d have TWO democratic states there in the midst of that repressive Islamic tribalism, one Jewish, one Islamic..but both democratic, and operating within ONE networked economy. Together, that ‘dyad’ would have confronted the Islamic states…with a ‘so there’ We’ve done it; We get along…
And you know what? Those other Islamic nations would have tried to stop this dyad! They’re using the Isr-Pal situation as a red herring to divert their own people from their own internal problems. You can see how Iran is doing this all the time..
ETAB:
Sure, it might be a good thing if states were not bound to religion. Although, if you had a religion and had suffered for it for much of its existence, you might be excused for wanting a haven where you might practice it, unopposed. Perhaps.
Perhaps we should investigate the degree to which states are bound to religion. We might discuss how, in the United States for instance, it is impossible to buy liquor in many municipalities and counties on a Sunday. Impossible completely, in some places. As a merchant, in some localities, it is illegal for me to open my establishment at all on a Sunday. And do we really need to investigate how churches pay property taxes? I know…I know…no church, of any denomination, pays property tax. Protestations of unchurched Americans notwithstanding. In spite of public America’s headlong rush to divest itself of all things religious, much remains and, yet, few feel particularly put upon. But perhaps I’m projecting my own feelings upon all the other unchurched Americans. It could be so much worse, and you know I do not mean ala Israel.
Back to degree… Would anyone like to compare Saudia Arabia with Israel in regard to freedom to worship? How about freedom to criticize? Freedom to change your religion? And Saudia Arabia is relatively, what.., civilized?!?
Yes, all such systems are not well suited to the modern global world, or one’s vision of one. But they exist and will for a very long time. Someday, perhaps, we will see a truly secular world. Until then, let’s at least try to make the world safe for everyone to be whatever they will.
It has been commented on that despite the left’s anti-semitism, that jews continue to vote for the left…..
Perhaps this explains it…
The scene in 1900, in the Pale of Russia.
A Pogram is proceeding.
Two jews are stood before a wall and a firing squad assembled.
The officer in charge—sneeringly enquires of the victims—”any last requests?”
The first Jew replies that a last cigarette would be nice.
The second Jew scolds him “Shutup! Don’t make trouble!”
Go figure…….
Steve- I’m definitely not egging anyone on or having fun with them. I’m serious about these opinions.
I think that the Israeli-Palestinian situation IS unique. You have an outside agency, the UN, acting as if it owned the land, and carving it up, and allotting ‘this space to you people’ and ‘this space to you other people’.
People aren’t block of wood; they live in their local territories within long histories of adaptation, culture, local economies, etc. To have an outside agent tell you what your land is, and where you may live…that’s authoritarianism and I suggest, not the way to do things.
You are right, however, about the UN ignoring what Saudi Arabia..etc do to their own peoples. I haven’t heard the UN saying anything about Iran’s repression of their own people. [And note that Obama utterly ignored the Iranian people's demonstrations for democracy]. That’s my point that the Islamic nations are tribal, repressing the emergence of a middle class..and are using the Israeli Palestinian conflict to divert attention from themselves.
The UN is completely corrupt.
I maintain that the Islamic nations don’t want a Palestinian state. They don’t want an Islamic democracy in their midst..and they DO want to divert attention from their own internal totalitarianism..and their refusal to reform Islam.
#38 – You know as much about Canada’s problems as you do how to write coherent English. That’s right, all of Canada’s problems are due to loose drug laws and loose women. The secret is out! What do you suggest? Flogging? Decapitation? Stoning? Sorry, those laws only apply to your country, not mine.
#30 – I did better than packing a metaphorical suitcase, I got my firearm’s license.
Crossbow – yes, I agree with you about the ‘normative habits’ in many small towns in the US, Canada, Europe and elsewhere. These derive in large part from Christian modes of belief, eg, the Sunday closing, the liquor, and so on.
I think they are gradually withering away – but only if the local population wants such withering, and any retention is due to normative habit rather than religious adherence. But even if it IS due to religious belief, this doesn’t mean a merger of church and state! It means that the local population wants their local lifestyle to function in that way.
Same thing with taxes on churches; these have become normative habits of history rather than policies based on religious adherence.
But, these ‘ways of life’ have little to nothing to do with the separation of church and state, and the equation of anti-zionism with anti-semitism.
As I’ve tried to point out, Saudi Arabia,and the rest of the Islamic states are tribal dictatorships. Not democracies. And they are trying to repress any moderniztion into a modern civic political system that removes power fromthe Old Tribal Hereditary Elite..and gives it to the people.
a middle class.. would have the economic and political power. Iran is right now trying to execute those dissidents who are trying to enable Iran to become a democracy and empower a middle class. I think the Islamic hostility to Israel is not entirely because it is Jewish ..though that is a factor ..read the later hadiths…
But above all because it is a democracy and has a middle class. The Islamic states are desperately trying to prevent the modernization of the Islamic states and the emergence of a free middle class and democracy in their own countries. I also say that this repression..is the cause of Islamic fascism.
ETAB:
And, yes, I agree with you that much of what remains in the west is normative. But it may not have started out that way. And may not be all that normative in, say, Latin America. Or much of the Bible Belt (been there, lately?) If you were Jewish, or Hindu, or athiest and wanted to do business on the Christian Sabbath, and were legally prevented in an overwhelmingly Christian community, would that not be a church-state issue?
Still, I was merely addressing where Israel may sit on a scale from 0 to 10, where 0 is Talibanistan and 10 is, say, Las Vegas. I’d put Israel somewhere in the middle. To lump Israel in with the Islamist states is disingenuous.
Where does the Grand Mufti’s cozy relationship with the Nazi’s, long before there ever was an Israel, fall with regard to the Islamist states “merely” trying to suppress modernization? Ie; Islamic hostility to Israel actually is entirely because it is Jewish (read the book). All the rest is a “factor”.
I am a Christian but I understand that Zionism is a self-determination movement that made the state of Israel a refuge. Some people who have not been exposed to anti-semitic hate-commentary may not realise that anti-Semites use Zionism as a back-door, or excuse, to weaken Jewish resolve(“never again”)and bring on the demise of the Jewish people. In Europe, and elsewhere, these people use Zionism v.Palestinians to further their hate campaign. Aside from the US, who else has been maligned to this degree ?
So, whenever you see someone defending anti-Zionism, your ears pick up. Take a look at the on-line newspaper forums in the UK sometime. The NYT was also notorious.
I am myself, trying to think what I would criticize Israel for. I am sure there are mistakes made-everyone makes mistakes. No one is perfect. However, I am tired and can think of nothing at the momement. I think Israel tries its d@mndest to accommodate its ally, the US, even when the US has been a tad selfish at times-had no appreciation for what the Israelis have endured(what we would not endure), and I believe Israel plays by the rules,attempts to work with other nations, has even bent over backward to co-operate- which led to its own detriment.
I am no expert, and I could be entirely wrong, but I don’t see Israelis as being tribal. I see them as robust individuals who debate their politics, along with every other issue, vigorously.The state of Israel is the moral support the rest of the world refused the Jewish people ?
Trully ironic, yet inevitable, that the “thought crime” laws and Orwellian “commissions” were pushed by idiots who trully, trully believed they were fighting anti-semitism. Few groups have shown such self-destructive intellectual naivite as have the self-described chosen. Totally senseless to think the thought police commissions were going to protect jews, ever.
ETAB: “People aren’t block of wood; they live in their local territories within long histories of adaptation, culture, local economies, etc.”
This is why I know that “tranfer” is unrealistic, one thing is clear, no one is going anywhere. So what’s left, you try for alternative measures, a balance between trust and security under Israeli territorial sovereignty.
“transfer”
The question for me is this all freedom speech link to land and power not really relgion attached to it
now people more spend time over figtht over nuclear or land or size less pay attention to their relgion or talk god or voice of god
as we study history of past over all kingdom attack cities and fight over all civil war to take more land
such as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm
such common wealth country under united kingdom are:
The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy and unitary state consisting of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales
Monarchy of Antigua and Barbuda ,Monarchy of Australia ,Monarchy of the Bahamas ,Monarchy of Barbados ,Monarchy of Belize ,Monarchy of Canada , Monarchy of Grenada , Monarchy of Jamaica , Monarchy of New Zealand , Monarchy of Papua New Guinea , Monarchy of Saint Kitts and Nevis , Monarchy of Saint Lucia , Monarchy of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines , Monarchy of the Solomon Islands , Monarchy of Tuvalu , Monarchy of the United Kingdom and lots of small island in world
and you can see Canada is in Edward V was join united kingdom and US get independten from UK and we also noticed that all
land of Israel was before link with UK and also if we study land ownership and
what quality may king or queen bring it to it and also national security is important for all citizen now as pririty
http://news.sympatico.ca/World/ContentPosting?newsitemid=184972329&feedname=CP-WORLD&show=False&number=0&showbyline=False&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=False
We also know Iran and Aryan believe first kingdom in earth was Iran as well and still if you look at history of land of where they come and how board for security was booked to not move easy for sake of national security and nobody like to care about where to live and now people live every where
we also some times put question that UK has so many of land and Hitler and Sadam also wish more land and some in Russia wish some land seperated as Azarbajan and some land still under dispute is Israel and Palstinian
so as result all is land argument not consotituion right for human right or even both Iran and Israel spend more money in army than proceed peace may they enjoy make money by continue war inside to do peace and talk less about isalm or jewish or christinaty while all claiming their war and argument is related to their relgion
while poor increase and dead in civilan are increase too
then give this debate to hand of honest and gifted peopel can have all info to related and not give world war II and quebec and Canada english another play for sepeartion for land play in Europe game let leave in peace
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/18/tarek-fatah.aspx
The G8 had already been scheduled to be hosted in the Muskoka region town of Huntsville in 2010. But at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh in September, Harper announced Huntsville would also host the 2010 G20 summit.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/727885–pm-s-jewish-pitch-hits-a-new-low-critics-say
at the end of day jewish or muslim or christian live in Canada welcom all secure bueiness in Canada and look for profit and rather than any war inside or outside any more and Canadian are freindly people becaues all must live together, no matter what
while still some area bother relgion group live in Canada is number of people who are not respect relgion or think they can change rule of having child and then wish to have one to grow then up and put peopel who wish to have child vers thos group in security too
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=number+of+gay+marriage+and+population+of+gay++in+canada&meta=&aq=f&oq=
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