Our Neighbor and Why We Have to Kill Him
Our neighbor lives in the house in which our grandfather used to live. He claims he bought the first part of the house from a Turki, and later the second part from a British bank, but that doesn’t make the sale any less illegal: my family lived in that house for hundreds of years and we don’t accept the documents of sale. Now he’s living there. He is the son of monkeys and pigs.
The problem is that he’s not just brazen, he’s also strong, although he is a tiny guy.
The whole neighborhood hates him. He’s a thief and possessed by the devil. But he seems to be able to beat everyone. We tried to force him out of the house together, but it didn’t work. He has bulletproof windows, and the roof is made of inflammable material.
All we think about is him. Our own home is in ruins because all our efforts, all our money and ideas and energy are devoted solely to destroying our neighbor’s house. We’re utterly convinced that we will be perfectly happy just as soon as we’ve killed him and his house is a heap of smoking rubble. We live for one thing only: our neighbor’s demise. It’s a noble ambition for which we’re all willing to die.
Sometimes our neighbor seems to forget we exist, then we throw a couple of pebbles at his windows. If we’re lucky, there’s a window open and we toss a Molotov cocktail inside to start a nasty fire. That makes our neighbor angry, and that’s good. We don’t want him to forget us. Life means nothing to us as long as our neighbor’s living in that house. So we make sure he remembers us, even though we can’t force him out and he sometimes beats the hell out of us.
Every now and then our neighbor gets fed up with our stone-throwing — those are the best moments. Then he storms out of our grandfather’s house and smashes our kitchen or bathroom or refrigerator to pieces. By doing so he proves that it’s right that we hate him. We provoke him until he reveals his true demonic character. That’s what we live for. We can’t beat him, but there’s something satisfying about watching him kick our old, worn-out, empty refrigerator to shreds after we have tried to ransack one of his freezers — he has several, all full of food which he bought with the wealth he found in our grandfather’s house. What he does to us is much worse than our provocations, but we keep provoking him because that’s the main thing we want in life.
I wonder which political, moral, or religious thought causes individuals to hate, and believe some humans are from monkeys, and pigs. I am confident we all know it is not the religion of peace.
It must be Satanism.
An incisive depiction of inherited insanity.
Wow. As an Israeli, I so often throw up my hands, unable to explain to friends and family abroad just how crazy our enemies are, and why we consistantly lose the PR battle. This piece is helpful … but of course, will only be read by people whose minds have not been poisoned by the reflexive Israel bashing that dominates the media.
For more on my views, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hToxAai9uME
dude, you need to be in a mental institution with heavy medication. obsessive-compulsive behavior, as well as irrational hatred, coupled with grave antisocial personality disorders is a danger to yourself, as well as the entire community.
get yourself some serious help if you care about anything or anyone other than your wretched self.
I wish the media and world at large would read this–several times. Until they realize the type of mentality that we are dealing with nothing will change. As to what causes this type of hate–it is pounded into the children from birth. They are denied any type of education that would allow them to develop free thought. Even now as Israel helps rebuild the infrastructure and continues to treat their people in its hospitals, they still hate. Don’t be surprised if they try to strap a bomb to a leukemia patient going into Israel. There is no sense or reason to a madness like this.
While Israel is the most direct focus of Islamic hatred and resentment, the thing that Islam as a whole resents most of all is that the entire world has passed it by.
There are 3 types of cultures;
Type 1- Innovative, values industry, inventiveness
Type 2- Duplicative, may not innovate but skilled at adopting the innovations of others
Type 3- Tribalist, tradition-bound, suspicious of change, hostile to any challenge to the authority of their “elders”
China was a Type 1 culture during the Ming dynasty- until the stultifying effects of an entrenched bureaucracy stifled it. Japan was a Type 3 culture- until it lost World War 2. It is now one of the foremost Type 1 cultures on the planet. Europe was full of Type 1 cultures before WW 1; today, they are mainly Type 2s. The U.S. has always been a Type 1 culture, but again, bureaucracy is changing that.
Islam began as a successful Type 2 culture, taking knowledge from other cultures and improving upon it. But the inherently “tribal” nature of the Islamic culture, with its inherent suspicion of anyone not part of the “extended family”, soon put a stop to this. Islam’s ability to innovate came to a screeching halt in the 10th Century AD, when they failed to conquer Europe (even though they kept trying for another 500 years). Since then, Islam has been a Type 3 culture, seeing the world around it outperforming it in every way imaginable- and for the most part resenting that other world’s existence.
And to add insult to injury, the only way its resentful elements can accomplish the “cathartic” violence they dream of against that other world is by using the tools created by the very cultures which they seethe with hatred for. Whether it’s an AK-47, a Molotov cocktail- or an atomic bomb.
But even if they succeeded, it would not quell their hatred and resentment. Because their problems would still be the same. Because they created the problems themselves, through their unwillingness to permit any change in their society which might conceivably impact the almost limitless power of their religious hierarchy, and the titular rulers supported by that hierarchy. And until that changes, Islam, as a whole, will remain mired in resentment, backwardness, and tribal primitivism. A stage the other cultures on this planet have, for the most part, outgrown.
To put it bluntly, Islam, as a whole, needs to grow up.
clear ether
eon
Cute
But strange that they say they have been there for hundreds of years? Maybe it was after they massacred the Jew who lived there and stole his property
. mike:
dude, you need to be in a mental institution with heavy medication. obsessive-compulsive behavior, as well as irrational hatred, coupled with grave antisocial personality disorders is a danger to yourself, as well as the entire community.
get yourself some serious help if you care about anything or anyone other than your wretched self.
what the fu– has this got to do with. Using all these ridiculous medical terms to describe the author only highlights your stupidity.
Well, no one has accused the Islamists of having a brilliant strategy. Remember, while thousands may support this whine, millions don’t.
Mike,
I can’t believe you didn’t know he was writing about Islamofascists. What planet are you from?
He gave us a true picture of Islam, a culture locked in the 7th century: religion,culture,etc.
They see nothing wrong with using the latest technology to bring us (the world) down to their tribalist mind-set, but won’t allow the use of our technology among their own populace to improve their lot in life.
Neat analogy, the maddness becomes instantly apparent when taken away from the agenda driven media and placed in a erstwhile normal and civilized setting.
Until the world realizes that terrorists are waging a religious war, we will not win. Their ideology is psychologically compulsive and their commitment is suicidal. It is not possible for life loving people to compromise with death loving people.
Pajamasmedia is conservative (this is my first visit) — or what has become described as conservative? And, they support Israel (from the well written satirical article above).
But, the article is one sided. The neighbors have done nothing wrong; the rest of the neighborhood is consumed with futile hate. All I learned from the article is that this is a polarized issue. I’d like to understand the issue, but I don’t. And, the one-sidedness is less than helpful.
Maybe one day Israel will get fed up enough to change this part:
“We want to kill him, but we don’t have the right weapons. He has the means to kill us all, but he doesn’t, the coward. If we had the weaponry he has, we would have killed him long ago. And the fact that he doesn’t kill us, although he could, is a sign of his unbearable arrogance.”
One day Israel will have to either kill them all or (more likely) expel them all. If they are to be expelled, where to? Only countries without a real government are possible. The 2 options are Lebanon and Somalia. Lebanon is easier, but the enemy can still fight from there. Somalia is better, but very hard logistically.
If Israel waits too long to deal with the problem, they will find that the Palestinians will acquire the means to eradicate Israel, and it will be too late.
Interesting…..
The God of peace is just;
The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:9)
[He is] the Rock, His work [is] perfect; For all His ways [are] justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright [is] He.
(Deuteronomy 32:4)
Lives of those who truly know Him will be marked by doing what is right and by peace. Both belong inseparably together and have been missing increasingly in this world ever since Adam and Eve’s disobedience towards their Maker. Similarly to a snowball that becomes more and more intermingled and bigger as it is rolling down a mountain, injustice has increased to an almost unbearable extent. Who can stop it or avoid committing more wrongs while trying to put things right? Who is able to determine truth from falsehood in the heat of battle? Depending on one’s perspective it can be difficult to see why things are perceived as unjust by an enemy.
The situation in Gaza is “a” case in point.
Whose land is it anyway? Does the Quran and the Bible not speak about God having given it to the Jews (Surah Al-A’raf, 7 verses 133-138, Joshua 1:1-5)?
To add to the complex picture, Mousab Hassan, son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, a founder of Hamaz recently announced his decision to follow Jesus as described in the Bible. Mousab was appalled when he found out that Hamaz reigns in terror and was not even shying away from torturing and killing its own members. What kind of freedom do they propagate?
Jesus’ command to his followers to love their enemies compelled Mousab, one of the leaders of the Islamic youth movement in Gaza, to find out more about this unique and strange teaching.
Love your enemy! Where is the justice in that?
How can Jesus command his followers to forgive sinners and to love them? Would that not be grossly unjust? Indeed it would if it was not for what God said in the Tawrat:
‘Punishment is mine and reward, at the time of the slipping of their feet: for the day of their downfall is near, sudden will be their fate.’
(Deuteronomy 32:35)
The Qu’ran calls Jesus ‘al Masih’, ‘the Messiah’ (Surah Al Imraan, 3, verse 45).
In contrast to that obscurity, the Messiah fulfills a central role in the Biblical revelations. The Hebrew word means ‘anointed one’, translated into English as ‘Christ.’ The term has been used on different occasions mapping out the work of the one to come, foreshadowing the ultimate Messiah. He is chosen by God, he saves his people, he judges God’s enemies and will eventually rule all the nations in justice and righteousness for eternity.
He is described as a God like figure, living in heaven and becoming a man who took the punishment for sin that we deserved. (Isaiah 9:6-7, 53:1-12, Daniel 7:13-14)
Why Doesn’t everyone just leave Israel Alone.They Are peace loving people.This Sh*t has got to stop!
For a race of people who had no land for 2 thousand years, they should know better than occupying someone else’s land and expect the occupied to like it.
As a coastal Rhode Islander I feel for this guy. Every summer animals from ma, ny nj and ct come to torture bully locals, overcrowd our towns, foul our beaches and raise the price of housing. Summer houses of these hords have pushed housing prices out of reach to the year round residents. The same people actually make up these sceanic villages. I feel for the man whose home was taken just as my family lost our land. We had to sell because of out of control taxing and the need for water view land to grow mini-mansion. homes occupies for 8 weeks per year. This article my be a view of a fictional extreme individual but it does have meaning to other people who feel helpless rightfully or not.
The author choose a different approach to get people to be non biased. I don’t think it worked.
From a secular point of view Israel has no right to state hood in the middle east. No reasonable person who knows the history of modern Israel can disagree.
From a religious point of it is a total hypocrisy to think modern European Jews deserve a country. And how can you use the holocaust as an excuse to commit genocide.
Israel is doomed in the next 25 years. More Americans are realizing what is really going on in Israel. Most Americans were force fed that it was another attack against Jews so we supported Israel. Now we realize it has nothing to do with religion.
The fact is Israel is stealing peoples land, allowing raw sewage from settlements to flow in Palestinian streets, Steals natural resources, and murdering people.
It was not Barren land when Israel was formed and Jews were the small minority.
Another View changes correct history to fit his/her agenda of hate for Israel.
Reads just like a moon god worshiping rant of hate to me.
ROPMA!
IS this for real?
Love your neighbor as yourself. Take your documents to court and have them decide what the proper disposition is. Hire an investigator to trace the house legal ownership.
Please steer me correct. What is the correct modern an ancient history of Israel? Show me. I can back up anything I say. But I can only lead you to the water.
I have no problems with Jews. Not at all. Zionism yeah I do. It’s apartheid.
…you moronic imbecile….how would you define/describe the “Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians, Lebanese, Saudis, Egyptians, Hamas, and PLO that want to “wipe Israel off the map”….?….they would have to be defined as “Nazi/Fascist Jew-hating Muslim Extremists”…Israel should officially adopt a published strategy of “Mutually Assured Destruction”: Attack us and we will defend ourselves with all meams available, up to and including the nuclear destruction of Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem, and the capitals of each and every one of our enemies; Israel will never again be subjugated….”
The land in palestine would not be barren if the people who lived there would stop trashing it and maybe sewer would not run into the streets if the Hamas and terrorist in Gaza would stop sending rockets over everytime they dont get their way I feel bad for those who have nothing to do with it but they voted for their government maybe when they get tired of starving and being killed they will do something about their own people oppressing them for their own political agenda(this has nothing to do with stolen land just hate that will never change because a whole culture of people in whole are always vistims)but they wont the palistines have been here before and as usual intstead of doing something about it they wail and whine and try to justify the launding of rockets into Israel whenever they fill like it if sorry Palestine I remember 80s and the Billions of dollars you were given instead of making palestine better they just bought rocket launchers and guns and wait for any excuse to shoot them off,Israel ought to nuke all those little third world idiots off the planet and stop putting up with this sh*t that is hellbent on destroying them
As a Jew I am less than sympathetic toward the plight of the Palestinian People and of course more iterested in Israel’s point of view, however self-centered, but the meataphoric story above makes me wonder…
Every time I read stories like the one in this article it reinforces the one thing that has not changed in the world. “With peace the rich have no power, no control”. If the world has forgotten and doesn’t believe what I say look back at all the people who tried to bring people together and remember what happened to them…. John Kennedy, Martin Luthur King, Robert Kennedy, Gondy. The list goes on and yet parts of the world still fight. What control do you think the powers in the world would have if people could settle their disputes simply by talking? Not much and everyone (but the rich)would find life easier and more enjoyable. I’m glad I don’t have to spend hundreds of years on this planet, in this world. Thank god for his wisdom in giving our bodies the opportunity to expire with age, in death.
Gondy? Really?
The one from Endeya, back when parts of it spilt into Pokustein and Bongledash?
Another View, you are a bigot, racist, and full of hate. You claim Israel has no right to exist, yet you ignore the hundreds of countries that have propped up and taken over other people’s lands and civilizations over the centuries. You cannot use a war that happened 50 years ago as your justification for Israel to cease existing. You cannot supplant the millions of people in Israel and force them to move out.
The ancient history of that particular land is as meaningless as the ancient history of north america, africa, australia, and many other countries and continents that were claimed and conquered. That is no justification for your sick and selfish desire to see Israel be destroyed.
The only solution is peace between Palestine and Israel, which will require compromise on both sides and elimination of hateful ideology on both sides. But since you’re “anti-zionist” you are nothing but a bigoted hateful person who uses stupid excuses to justify that hate.
if the neighbor hired a lawyer (let’s try to imagine an attorney at law in this lawless neighborhood)she would present some evidence backing the neighbor claim to the house:
1.Neighbor ancestors live in the house long before the grandfather from the story and these ancestors were illegally thrown away from the house.
2.When the neighbor appear on the horizon, he never tried to kick out the grandfather; he said: let’s share the house. That’s was the grandfather who rejected coexistence and started fight.
3. These so called neighbors-victims once have stolen the whole Middle East and deprived statehood from several indigenous nations (Kopts, Assirians Kurds etc) The fact that it happened 1300 years ago doesn’t change anything: these peoples still have no State
One martyr away from success.
The day one Suicide bomber explodes in an Israeli city with a load of Radioactive dust is the day before the exodus where the Euro-Russian Israelis decide to go home and leave that grandpas house to his rightful heirs.
Israel is too small to withstand this sort of terror. It wouldn’t kill many but they would leave rather than expose themselves to increased health risk.
How about this as an intro:
When I was young, my father used to beat the sh*t out of me. Sometimes he made me bleed. Now that I am a grown man, I do the same. It makes me feel strong. I hurt them because it makes me forget a time when I was the victim. I know they have done nothing wrong. But who cares? It’s all about me exorcizing the ghosts of my past. Sympathy for them? Nah. After I beat the sh*t out of them, I walk away as they lie on the floor injured with nothing but hatred for them. I lock myself in my den. And I cry. I lick my wounds from my childhood and I feel sorry for myself. They are not the victims. I am. Poor me. Poor me. Poor me.
A generation and a half ago, Alvin B. Toffler wrote Future Shock, a proposal that humans experience stress when the world around them changes rapidly. It is a syndrome similar to culture shock. This is the world we have today, in which humans are required to deal with all sorts of unpleasant changes in a very short period of time.
In 1972, when my Father retired from the Arabian American Oil Company, Saudi Arabia was a collection of tin huts and the abjectly poor. When I went to work in Arabia in 1978, those tin huts had been replaced with air conditioned houses and shopping malls. All that in a mere 6 years. Such a rapid rate of change is bound to trigger nostalgia for the “good old days” and the stress might well result in neurotic/psychotic behavior however, the Saudi Arabs have tolerated this better than any had a reasonable right to expect. They are a gracious people, generous to a fault. That a few might go round the bend and indulge in destructive activity is a given but such are a very small minority. They have adapted astonishingly well.
Islam was/is a religion that attempted to weld the disparate tribes of arabs into a coherent whole, a functioning society with a single over riding connection: their religion. That religion prohibits the killing of Muslims,,,a prohibition which, as has been seen with Christians, is regularly ignored. Just because it fails to accomplish its intent all the time does not mean it is totally ineffective. Most of the time, the religious teachings result in peaceful behavior,,,most of the time may be the best humans are capable of,,,
It appears that the most rational solution to the Palestinian/Israel situation is two separate nations, with all that implies. Trade, argument, tirades and, eventually, mutual respect(though I expect it will take many generations before they can really LIKE each other).
Here’s hoping everyone involved can survive long enough to get to that point.
GAry 7
Videos for your discussion
http://freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=208
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSPatKNo-3Q
http://freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=169
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3AjnmDWDC8
Another view states in post #24; “Please steer me correct.”
OK, I will.
Whose land is it anyway?
The Quran and the Bible speak about God having given it to the Jews (Surah Al-A’raf, 7 verses 133-138, Joshua 1:1-5).
In the Qur’an, Muhammad commanded Muslims to read the Bible. What is your guide? If hadiths or imams differ with the Qur’an, which would you believe?
1) “Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light” (Surah 5:44a).
2) “And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah – a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil)” (Surah 5:46).
3) “It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)” (Surah 3:3).
4) “And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers” (Surah 10:95).
If you are a Muslim, you have no excuse not to read the Bible. The Qur’an commands and praises it.
Why don’t you start today? Begin with the Gospel of Luke which tells the story of Isa. “He alone” can give you assurance of paradise.
EGO = Easing GOD out
Both sides are guilty
Consider how the Native Americans felt when the colonists said this is ours because we have the might to take it. Somehow we do not consider they had rights as human beings. And when they fought for their survival, there was no one to rescue them. What will you do if the Chinese decide the USA is rightfully theirs? After you have made your own response clear in your mind, then consider the partition in 1947-8 and what happened to the residents of the territory that was made Israeli land. Also consider that the inhabitants have never had their portion of the partition, from the very beginning. There is also a significant Christian population in the West Bank.
20. Another View:
“From a secular point of view Israel has no right to state hood in the middle east. No reasonable person who knows the history of modern Israel can disagree.”
Than Obviously, you have no knowledge of this region’s history.
Please go back to the history books and check how many people were in the land called Palestine on 1867. I’ve already done that for you. It’s about a quarter of a million, out of which 70,000 were Jewish.
Than Jews started arriving from Europe, and AFTER them, Arabs came from nowadays Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and other countries. They came here BECAUSE Jews brough technology and work with them. In the neighboring countries there was no work and poverty drove them to follow the Jews.
By 1948 there were 1.2 million Arabs in Palestine. Natural growth ? NO WAY. They immigrated following the Jews.
Since you call yourself a secular, please show me one, just one reference to a Palestinian nation or people prion to 1948. You will find very few even if you search prior to 1967. Even the UN decision refers to Arabs in Palestine, not to Palestinians.
And while we are on the subject and you know the region’s history – please explain while the Palestinians that rightfully own this land according to you NEVER DEMANDED IT FROM JORDAN AND EGYPT between 1948 and 1967. After all, id it’s rightfully theirs, than Jordan and Egypt should have given it to them during these long 20 years, don’t you think ?
Having said all that, it is clear that today there are Palestinians, even if 50 years ago there was no such thing, and if the Palestinians could produce even one worthy leader that has any othority over the Palestinians and will be willing to work toward a two nation solution I assure you Israel will be more than happy to work with him. As long as the Palestinians refuse to accept Israel and work with her, there will never be peace.
Good luck with your history studies !!!
Interesting take on the situation. However, a bit one sided. Both sides are full of lunatic murderers. Both sides have deliberately targeted children and old ladies. Both sides have legitimate claims to the land.
Both sides also are full of intelligent people who want this to change. (and who are usually the first to die at the hands of their own family/friends if they express a wish for peace, or love for a member of the “others”)
BOTH sides are perfectly willing and EAGER to murder the children of the others. BOTH sides take the slightest insult from the other as rational for murder.
Yes, there is a side that deserves to be eliminated from the region. Is it the Israeli’s or the Palestinians? Neither, because that’s not the real battle here. The battle is between murderous and human beings.
Anybody who keeps a cool head and is willing to either tolerate or negotiation may stay. Anyone who implies their ethnicity deserves full ownership, or rationalizes the actions of racial/ethnic/religious extremists, should be raped to death by syphilitic baboons.
I am not from the region, but neither am I brain-washed by the media. (Neither the media percieved to be run by Jews nor the media percieved to hate jews) My opinions come from my friends from the region. (Palestinians AND Jews) Indeed, at my favorite falafel house, they are usually seen eating together and fantasizing about how lovely it would be if they could back to the land that rightfully belongs to BOTH, and still be friends.
What an excellant peice! Best one in a long time.
Another View:
Israel has no secular right to be there?
On the contrary. That bastion of world order, the United Nations, hardly a religious institution, said in 1948 that they do. If you are siding with the Palestinians, then dollar to donut you think the UN is a great thing.
Go back to the League of Nations and the original mandate, and you will see that it is Jordan that has no right to be there.
But then, if facts were important to you, you wouldn’t have the opinon you do.
Nan and Nevis provide the best answers. Too bad they summarized…….. The problem is that most Americans have a very distorted sense of history and their place in it. Their world is shaped by cherry trees.
These Muslims have created thier hell and will long endure its wrath.
Ah, the Native Americans, the First Nations, the Indigenous Peoples of Mexico, Central and South America — so pleased you mentioned them, Nevis. I have always wondered why the people of these countries are so anxious to involve themselves in Middle Eastern events about which they have little or no accurate historical information and even less personal involvement and yet are silent as to the plight of indigenous peoples living just a few miles from them in their own countries. Any idea what life is like on the average reserve (Canada) or reservation (U.S.) or the many indigenous villages of Central and South America? Maybe you should all start minding your own country’s business and butt out of things that do not concern you.
This is a very good picture of the hard reality in this bitter situation. And there are so few examples of truth to found, for they lay buried under all the insanity and lies. Well written!
Land disputes still exist in Kashmir where fight is going on nearly as old as palestine. Best way forward would be resolve all refuge situation and bring all Palestanian and Israelies together and form one country. Israel needs labor and Palestanian need jobs and system. Israelies need to stop fearing that Palestanian will over populate their system. I think President Elect Obama will support this path as he hinted that he wants whole jerusalem as Israel’s capital. Lets pray and hope that this part of the world would see some change during Obama’s time.
As the Qur’an says, reading the Bible will answer your questions:
“If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt” (Surah 10:94).
Is Jesus God’s Son? How could Allah, being one, have a Son?
One God, one Lord
As monotheists, Muslims, Christians, and Jews all agree that there is only one true God. Jesus Himself upheld monotheism. When asked for the greatest command, Jesus responded, “. . . The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength” (Mark 12:29-30).
The Apostle Paul, leader of the early church, also taught monotheism: “There is no God but one. . . the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him (1 Corinthians 8:4-6).
As followers of Jesus, the early Christians preferred to reserve the title “God” for the one whom Jesus called “my Father and your Father” (John 20:17) and the title “Lord” for Jesus. This title indicates that Jesus is both Master and deity.
Rest assured, the Bible (which the Qur’an commends in Surah 4:136) does not teach a parental relationship between God and Mary. That idea is as blasphemous to Christians as it is to Muslims. Rather, the concept of Christ’s being God’s Son demonstrates the relationship between the two and the shared nature of deity. At Isa’s birth, the angel told the virgin Mary:
“‘Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!’ But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. . . . of his kingdom there will be no end.’ And Mary said to the angel, ‘How will this be, since I am a virgin?’ And the angel answered her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God’” (Luke 1:26-35).
Yet another piece of bigotry coming out of the Israeli nation. Do you realize that it was this contempt, that you feel for your victims, that the Nazis once felt for you? #31 is right – this whole exercise really IS about you exorcising your past.
this has nothing to do with exorcising anything from the past. this has to do with israeli’s right to be alive. just last week there was a poll in the west bank where 68% said a peace should only be made so that they can continue to attack israel and destroy them. a piece giving up land would be nothing more than a cease fire. It would prevent israel from protecting itself from the entire region that wants to destroy them and only entice them to try even harder to do so. Israel would be happy for a piece, but knows all too well that it is unrealistic to believe a true piece can ever happen with a ppl that overwhelmingly wants to destroy them. the demands of the fatah party for any piece show that they really dont want it. They think Israel will ever give up Jerusalem or allow for the “right of return” to Israel of all “Palestinians”. native Americans would have a better chance of asking for all their lands back. the entire premise of their stance is beyond ridiculous and the fact that they have any support shows the true nature of the world today, that they have been and always will continue to be anti-semetic. Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization by the US and EU. Asking Israel to sit down with them is like asking the US to sit down with Al-Quad-ea. Would you negotiate with a ppl that have said and continue to say that your destruction is their mission as both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority’s mission statements still include. You are clearly an anti semite no better than a Nazi and I hope you get what you have coming to you
The Jew haters of the world debate whether Israel has a right to exist. The Jews are probably the only ancient people that still exists despite continuous attempts to exterminate them. Where did this people come from. They did not emanate from under a rock. They started out as a people in a part of the world that is now Israel, Jordan Gaza etc. History intervened and they were sent on the run where they met with ultimate evil in many places.
For a brief moment in eternity of time the world had a conscience and the UN voted to return some of the ancient homeland to the Jews. It was so wonderful for a while, but then buyer’s remorse set in. Does the world question the right of France, England, Norway, Hungary, Russia to exist. All those countries have a complicated history of inception as well. The world has always been so preoccupied with the Jews, the TYPE 1 culture. Innovative, creative, resourseful.
Just one more thought. In Los Angeles, there was a strike. “A day without Mexicans” How about a day without Jews. Sound good to all you antisemites?? ha! You and all your Arabs friends would all have Polio!
Bob and Robin
50 years is not that long first of all. Second Israel was not to build settlements outside of the British mandate which they did anyway. They did not only build settlements they confiscated homes.
If you had your house stolen and were made refugee. I guess you would just be thrilled. And you wouldn’t fight back after your family was murdered. If so you are not human.
Its amazing that you can have the gaul to blame the Palestians for the Isrealis sewage they let flow into Palestianian areas from the illegal settlements. I guess proper Israeli plumbing would be a gift if they didn’t protest the bulldozing of homes.
And that cry of hate doesn’t work. I did not call for the destruction of Israel. I am putting it right in your face that Israel is the aggressor, and has been over a long period of time.
And no religion deserves a state. Let alone European Jews who converted to the Hebrew religion in the 12th century and the majority in 18th century. It’s a sham.
My only complaint is my tax dollars are supporting apartheid. All Americans deserve the truth.
14. rc:
Welcome to Pajamas Media. Its true that most articles have either conservative or libertarian slants. Sometimes there’s more variety.
Most issues are too complex to understand from a single article or even a thick book. Sample what information you have from every source you can find. Use that brain of yours and do some critical thinking. If you don’t disagree or at least question some tiny point in everything you read then you aren’t thinking.
Back to the article:
Its important to attack this suicidal hate mindset for what it is. But be careful in lumping the ideology on every Muslim in the Middle East. There are quite a few that may be verbally hostile to Israel when questioned, don’t give a rats a** about it. They’re quite busy trying to live their life, run their business and provide a future for their children to succeed.
They speak the party line because they’ll be assaulted or worse if they don’t. These are the people who need to be mobilized to create a change.
Has the “victim” actually considered the idea that the grandfather lied, or that they remembered it all wrong? After all, the “victim” hasn’t even been to the house before. Perhaps the grandfather was the illegal squatter, raiding the house and living in it after chasing away the original owner with brute force and violence, yet not acquiring the house legally. Of course the grandfather wouldn’t tell his children or his grandchildren that he took the house illegally, because he wouldn’t want to lose his face. Alas, the grandfather is now dead, and the grandchildren are misled into thinking that the neighbor took over the land illegally.
The fact that the neighbor is living in peace and not destroying the surrounding areas shows that the neighbor is willing to simply live in peace. The neighbor could in fact take over the rest of the land if he wanted to, since he has the means, but he wouldn’t, because he only claims what is rightfully his. The neighbor would only retaliate on occasion because if the neighbor does not, the “victim” would think that they are invited to continue the incessant attacks, which are themselves unlawful to begin with. The fact that the neighbor chooses to retaliate on his own instead of calling upon the authorities indicates mercy; or else the “victim” could have easily been evicted from the house he is currently staying in, whether or not it is legally acquired.
Sure, the “victim” might think that they could use bigger and more weapons to defeat the neighbor, but they often do forget that the neighbor still has his Father on his side; the same Father whom the grandfather claims to belong to.
Kevin, you do realize that this article is written from the Palestinian POV, do you not?
I think Jodi.H (post no. 38)
has told us what the people of Israel and palestine are secretly thinking and hoping for!
The Elimination of hatred.
I think this viewpoint is simplistic and characterizes Palestinians unfairly.
The assumption that the Palestinians could build themselves up but don’t
because they are solely obsessed with lashing out at the Jews is wrong.
The Palestinians cannot build themselves up because their land and the
resources that go with it were stolen. Even if the land was given to the
Jews by God, I find it difficult to believe God would condone the lack of
compassion and justice with which the Israeli government has shown the
Palestinians. The Palestinians live in untenable, substandard conditions–
and that is largely why that cannot build themselves up. The Israelis know
that and, believe me, do not want the Palestinians to “build themselves up.”
Have you ever read the bumper sticker “If you want peace, work for justice?”
The assumption that the Palestinians should just suck it up and be “mature”
about living in a situation in which they feel continually humiliated is, itself,
immature. Israel wants to act as if the injustice they visited is perfectly
okay, but it isn’t. Yes, the Palestinians pander to the media–but what else are
they going to do?? Seems like common sense to me.
Israeli:
Uh ok. you made my point before I even check my numbers again. 70,000 Jews and 180,000 semetic.
It doesn’t matter what the western name of the region or people was. The fact is the area that is now Israel was occupied by people of that region Jewish or not. Not occupied by zionist Europeans that have used the Jewish faith to build a zionist state.
like all u islamist u think u own that little piece of realestate called israel well think again u schmucks when u throw a rock u will get back a boulder u dumb a so when u think about we need 2 move all those residents out of gaza and put them in the west bank where u all belong so u can stop throwing your little rocks it gets 2 be a pain in the ass we have 2 start throwing boulders and the innocent get hurt but stupid muslins dont care never have an never will thats y we need 2 push all u fkrs out so we can have a little peace.just remember your time is going come when u all should of listen u stupid fn muslims…
Jews need to stop thinking the world is against them and that everyones out to kill them. You aren’t alone! There are several examples through out history
Native Americans were killed by the European Settlers
Albanians were killed by the Serbians
Blacks have been killed and forced in to slavery by Whites
Aboriginals in Australia had been killed and exploited by Settlers
…and hey, Jews as well.
But one thing is for sure…going on and on about how the world hates you and how the world is against you isn’t going to help. And by justifying your actions currently by how the world has treated you does not make you any better.
I guess my point is that Jewish people should stop accusing the world that “your either with us or you’re an antisemite”. Firstly because by claiming that being Jewish is the sole qualification for being a semetic person is wrong, and secondly, just because someone chooses to stand on unbiased ground to look at the situation and comment about how he/she feels shouldn’t be criticised by such awful accusations.
Both sides of the conflict have pushed each other to polarised extremes. Thats final. You guys need to talk between yourselves and resolve. I found this piece a tad bit tasteless for that reason, but nevertheless truthful since there are SOME people who think like that, but i can assure you. Shooting children and their families sure doesn’t help people who think like this go away…
Sorry, clarification on the last comment. I meant to say that Jews have also been exploited and killed in the past, not “…Jews as well”
When will time come that we realize we are destroying our own home. I see no elevators leading into space. I see no supply lines coming down to earth. Earth is our home. It deserves respect from humanity who will only be here long enough to destroy Earth’s majesty. We are all one people from one Father, no matter which religion you believe, even evolution. Stop fighting your brothers. Unity amoung all races and sharing wealth with the poor is the ultimate solution.
What a dream of a perfect world. Even in the most beautiful stories the hero/heroine needs a villain to make the hero just. It is truly sad when one plays the hero during the daylight and waits for the concealment of night to carry out treachorous acts. In the end we will all answer for ourselves. Purgatory for the unjust and contentment for the just.
Another view states in post #24; “Please steer me correct.”
OK, I will.
Whose land is it anyway?
The Quran and the Bible speak about God having given it to the Jews (Surah Al-A’raf, 7 verses 133-138, Joshua 1:1-5).
In the Qur’an, Muhammad commanded Muslims to read the Bible. What is your guide? If hadiths or imams differ with the Qur’an, which would you believe?
Lilith~ I have Native Blood and I agree with this story sorry and think all people should be paying attention. I am doing considerably better here in Canada because there is no shrapnel or bomb packing child intent on killing me today or tomorrow or the next. And I see a Aboriginal Canadian as Prime Minister in my future,its a given,we will be fine we are strong. I care about whats going on all over the world, its my business,the worlds business. It is also important for countries to keep tabs on each other. There are genuine holocausts going on in African countries right now, wheres the out rage? Oh and I live in a nice place, sorry to disappoint you.
In response to DonJoe above, who conveniently selected Bible verses that supported his “God of Peace” argument, I would like to highlight a few more verses from his book:
Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Exodus 31:15 Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers…
Hosea 13:16 …their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Thank you Nevis.
You are one of the few people here who seems to understand that life on planet Israel did not begin in 1947. When the Israelis were SENT AWAY from Europe after WWII, the Arabs accepted them and let them settle amongst them. Little did they know that they would we stabbed in the back and have their land stolen by a people who believed that they were the only chosen ones on Earth.
Do you wonder why your Foregin Minister was recently called a terrorist in New York?
If there was an Academy Awards ceremony for terrorism, Israel would sweep every category-and every acceptance speech would have to thank the government of United States,whose generous sopport has made Israel the most successfull terrorist in the world.Israel has its own special way of recognising the achievement of its great terrorists by electing them prime minister.ariel sharon 1982 invasion of Lebanon the massacres of Palestinian refugee camp,slaughter of 69 civilian in Qibia,1937 the Irgun setting off bombs in market Haifa market 74 killed King David hotel killed 100.Yitzhak Shamir he assassination of the UN mediator in Palestine,Count Folke Bernadotte and French UN observer in sep 1948.One of the worst act of terror was in Deir Yasseen massacre.on april 1948,the Irgun and the stern gang attaked the village of Yasseen and massacred 120 villagers .To insure that the massacre had maximium effect in forcing Palestinians to flee,the terrorist forces raped women and girls,butchered infant and cut open the womb of a nine months pregnant woman .These was only few of the massacres .There is no question of seting up democracy in Israel because democracy mean equal rights for all.Irrespective of racial or religious origins.you cannot,on the onr hand want a jewish state and at the same time give non jews the right to be come a majority.Denying the right of Palestinian refugee to retun is therefor essential to maintaining Israel democracy.
SINCE WE ARE ALL INDULGING IN FICTION, I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT ENJOY THIS INTRO INSTEAD:
When I was young, my father used to beat the sh*t out of me. Sometimes he made me bleed. Now that I am a grown man, I do the same. It makes me feel strong. I hurt them because it makes me forget a time when I was the victim. I know they have done nothing wrong. But who cares? It’s all about me exorcizing the ghosts of my past. Sympathy for them? Nah. After I beat the sh*t out of them, I walk away as they lie on the floor injured with nothing but hatred for them. I lock myself in my den. And I cry. I lick my wounds from my childhood and I feel sorry for myself. They are not the victims. I am. Poor me. Poor me. Poor me.
Hate only brings forth hate. Violence brings forth violence, but kindness begets kindness.
People like this know nothing but hate and that is what they want and chose and it consumes them.
WHAT A NASTY PIECE OF WRITING. IT SHOWS ISRAELI XENOPHOBIA TOWARDS A PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE KICKED OFF THEIR LANDS AND PUT BEHIND BARBED WIRE.
“IT IS HARDEST TO FORGIVE THOSE WHOM YOU HAVE WRONGED”. THIS EXPLAINS ISRAELI HATRED FOR THE PALESTINIANS.
SHAME ON YOU FROM NOT HAVING LEARNED FROM THE HOLOCAUST.
Ava; you got it all wrong. Bad analogy. Its more like they robbed my bank and they still have my money. And I want it back.
DonJoe; Read Deuteronomy(original old testament)
Tully: The Israelites came out of Africa. The middle east is Africa. Or at least before the rewriting of history. Hebrew is a offshoot of the Egyptian religion. Thats the irony. Europeans convert to a African religion then use that religion oppress African people.
Jews aren’t ancient.
Mikey: I know the history of ww1 and the division of Ottoman empire. Please stay on topic.
I urge all of you to take a few minutes, turn up your volume a little, sit back and watch this.
Then pass it on to your friends, collaborators, neighbors, business associates, etc.
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened
“Israeli:
Uh ok. you made my point before I even check my numbers again. 70,000 Jews and 180,000 semetic.
It doesn’t matter what the western name of the region or people was. The fact is the area that is now Israel was occupied by people of that region Jewish or not. Not occupied by zionist Europeans that have used the Jewish faith to build a zionist state.”
Read what Mark Twain wrote when he visited this area in the late 1860s. It was EMPTY. All the people were living in several large cities, such as Jerusalem, Teberia, Zefat, Hevron (Jews), and Jaffo, Nazereth and Akko (Arabs). Most of the land, again, was EMPTY.
Most of nowadays “Palestinians” were not here 140 years ago. That’s history, and that makes most of your claims pointless.
For the sake of the argument (and it won’t change a thing anyway) – my mother’s side has been living in Israel for 10 generations – more than the majority of your Palestinians.
By the way, if we go by your logic – give back the land you stole from the indians and go back to England\Ireland\Spain or were you came from ! Otherwise – you are living in an Apartheid yourself.
If we go on with your logic – we all came from Africa in the first place, so let’s all go there !
As for a serious ending – you can keep saying whatever you want. Israel has been trying to reach a peacefull solution for 80 years. The Arabs always rejected any offer made by a negotiator. It will only end when a real Palestinian leader (not Abbas who has no followers) will step forward and find a peaceful solution that will allow all of us to live peaceful. Until that happens, we’ll keep fighting for our lives.
Meanwhile, you can stay with your hatred and ignorance wherever you are …
Another view states in post #24; “Please steer me correct.”
Islamic Women Vs. Jewish Women
Rules of Islam that oppress and insult women!!!!
Islam in its purest form honors and elevates women, so we are told. But does it?
Truthfully, too often textual reality (the Qu’ran) matches up with seventh-century Arabia. Gender inequality and oppression in the Qu’ran reflect this excessively patriarchal culture. If Allah and Muhammad improved on this patriarchy, then they did not go far enough for a worldwide religion that claims universality.
The Violent Oppression of Islamic Women
Produced by the David Horowitz Freedom Center
For Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/videos/108/the-violent-oppression-of-women-in-islam/
Jewish Women
http://jwa.org/exhibits/wov/
Wow.. sounds like the neighbors are some sort of an extreme religious group that’s always trying to cleanse “the neighborhood”.. They won’t be happy until everyone is dead..
Doc Mike #62:
I am quite aware of God’s sovereignty.
So who’s land is it?
“Who’s land is it?” The land belongs to whoever can hold it. That’s been the history of mankind since the beginning. Waves of invaders have always washed across the earth, taking over from whoever was there. In the vacuum in Europe after the Romans fell, waves of Visigoths, vandals, Huns, ad nauseum, rolled across Europe. The ancient Egyptians at one time ruled over much of the Middle East. Genghis Khan conquered China. The Europeans took over the New World. More recently, the Jews occupied Israel.
Should we go back hundreds, even thousands, of years, correct for the predations of all the invaders who ever marched, and return those lands to the descendants of those dispossessed? Good luck unraveling that knot.
If you want to hold your land, first you must be strong. If you’re a relatively weaker state next to a strong state, don’t piss off the strong state or you’ll be consumed. As an alternative, you might form a coalition of the weaker states to balance the strong. But the basic rule stands: don’t start something you can’t finish.
Wars have always adjusted borders. That’s why it’s a bad idea to start one (or piss off your neighbor) if you’re not ready to accept the consequences if you lose. This has held true throughout history, regardless of the cultures involved. Heck, even the Native Americans warred against each other; rose, expanded, fought, contracted, etc. It wasn’t all sweetness and light before the Europeans arrived.
The notion that you have to “give back” land you took in war — i.e., return to the status quo ante — is very recent. It started after the ’68 Arab-Israeli war. Israel kicked the Arabs’ asses, but suddenly the “international community” demanded a return to pre-war borders.
Unfortunately, this foolish notion persists today (thanks, UN!). The problem is that it’s like a no-fault clause: if the Palestinians piss off the Israelis, they know the Israelis will be pressured to eventually withdraw.
We need a return to the old way. Sometimes, the only way to get rid of a persistent problem is to burn it out, and occupy the land to ensure it doesn’t grow back.
Actually, God is a God of justice who comprises aspects of peace and love for those who honor and worship Him and keep his laws, and a fearsome God (who is slow to anger) of righteousness who exacts just penalties on those who repeatedly fail to honor His laws and live a just, peaceful life themselves. By the way, leading a just and peaceful life does not mean you are required to give up your own right to self-defense.
I had a feeling on the first page this was about Isreal and the palastinians, It is very accurate. The history of that land is often falsely told and distorted, by both its enemies and the liberal press. I just wish some shred of truth would still be known to the world, so rather then bash a country valiently defending itself against insurmountable odds, they could congratualate them for surviving those odds.
Good Story
I obviously am missing something concerning the dust up in Gaza. Let’s see; the idiots of Hamas lob missiles into Israel, finally Israel gets fed up and decides to kick Hamas’ butt; and Israel is the bad guy? Good grief. This seems to be a no brainer. If you play with fire, sooner or later you will get burned. Hamas found that out. However, i doubt if the lesson will stick with them.
The never ending wars of existence have always been here. As brutal as it sounds,we must not interfere and let the strongest prevail. Let them get this done and over. If you start a fight you can’t win ,,,you are stupid
Are you sure, Mulliganman?
You say that we “should not interfere and let the strongest prevail.” So you don’t believe that the Holocaust should have been stopped? The Nazis were, of course, the stronger ones.
Goliath started a fight it was thought he couldn’t win.
I hate that survival of the fittest crap. Also, in considering
all these viewpoints, it’s important not to lump all people together.
Some Jews are moderate or liberal and feel their govt’s policies
toward Palestinians are wrong. Not all Iranians feel America is
the “Great Satan” Not all Americans think all Arabs are
terrorists, etc….
Hey Peacock Chaser,
Do you really believe that the problem began with the Palestinians lobbing rockets at the poor Israelis? Have you ever questioned why 1.5 million people have been shoved into a concentartion camp with barbed wire around it?
Lets go back to WW2 when the Europeans kicked the Jews out of Europe and decided to give them a piece of land which was already settled by Arabs. Let’s go back to the time when these very Arabs were murdered and colonized and you might find your answer. Otherwise you will continue chasing peacocks.
2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of staggering unto all the peoples round about, and upon Judah also shall it fall to be in the siege against Jerusalem. 3 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a stone of burden for all the peoples; all that burden themselves with it shall be sore wounded; and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it.” (Zacharias 12)
It’s an age-old story that’s got to be settled. The Judge of the Universe will soon do it.
well said.. yeah i am sure that the those animals revel in the death and destruction around them…i didn’t really think of it from that perspective ..i guess only a typical white euro/american priviliged *sshole would have time and energy to develop this analogy (not that it is a particularly complex one ,it is just that people being bombed and shot at rarely have time for literature) …perhaps a vacation in the middle east would be give you the chance to participate in a little “research”…hey, btw, if you are ever in the area look me up i would love to talk a little more in depth about reasonable justifications for violence…
Why don’t you all just stop hating everyone. Jeezzzz. You keep throwing rocks at someone and sooner or later they will pick them up and throw them back, or come over and punch you in the nose. You have no right at that point to say “oh, please stop hurting me” you started it. If they did not have their neighbors to hate they would find someone else. I am seeing that therse folks seem to hate everyone that does not see things as they do. Wait, what is that called “prejudice” or “Stupidity”? Duh – both. Stop, stop, stop.
All the so called “Abrahamic” religions have the same philosophy. There can be only one . . . Their own book purports to describe the genocidal ethnic cleansing of the land’s original inhabitants, but THAT was OK because it was their “god’s” will and doing . . . The world would be better off without any of you, Xtian, Muslim AND “Jew” alike. Meanwhile, the U.S. is held in thrall of the “state” of Israel, ignoring the many crimes that “state” has perpetuated against humanity, as well as it’s own interests.
Isn’t this the outfit that sent the neo-nazi skin head “Joe the plumber” to report on this mess in Gaza?
To Mike and all the others who were unable to grasp what has been written -
President Roosevelt promised the Saudia King, on a trip to the RED SEA via boat, that the jewish refugees WOULD NOT take over the soveriegn country of Palestine at nthe end of WW II- When President Truman was asked why he did not keep this promise his reply was ” He is not here right now to answer to these jewish bankers ” And has anyone read Jimmy Carters book on this subject ? very few have as the TV and News media plus Hollywood are under the control of the jewish state AND his book is labeled a lie – History so many times is distorted to pertect certain interest and seldom is it told as it actually happened – in the early 40′s the USA was the most revered country to ALL in the arab world – and today? Terroism was solely created by one USA President refusing to honor a promise – sad sad world with no solution. above facts in the Roosevelt Library
bottom line GOD gave the land to the jews. there is nothing anyone can do .its all about the Bible read it .historic prophetic realistic bam !its all there David and goliath again and again in 48 in 67 in 73 and little skirmishes here and there GOD warned king Saul about the thorns of the world, uncircumcised philistines who do they think they are anyways to dare to defy the armies of the living GOD!!?
bottom line GOD gave the land to the jews. and there is nothing anybody can do about it bam in your face !!Its all about the bible, the history ,Prophetic. GOD warned King Saul about the thorns on the side, uncircumcised philistines do they dare to defy the armies of the Living GOD ?!!
I think it is time for everyone to start reading the bible. And there is a awesome bood called A Divine Revelation Of HELL written by Mary K. Baxter. Remember there is only one God, and if anyone has any comments about this truth, educate yourself before debating. JESUS IS LORD.
Hi Anna (81)
Could you please tell me why the Palestinians never demanded a country from Jordan or Egypt when they controlled the west bank and Gaza until 1967 ?
How come they only demand land from Israel ?
Is it because there was no such thing as Palestinian people prior to that time ?
Is it because the rulers of those neighboring nations would simply slaughter all of them like Assad murdered 30,000 Syrians in 1983, or King Hussein killing well over 3000 Palestinians in 1970 in Jordan when they commited terror attacks ?
As for a solution – when a decent Palestinian leader accepts a two state solution – there will be peace
Poor, poor Palestonians(rock throwers). The article was nicely written, but didn’t this land belong to Israel before the Palestinians had it? The reason Israel lost the land was as a punishment from God for worshipping idols. Now that the Israelis are back where they belong, they are berated. The Israeli nation are the chosen one’s of God. Maybe this is what the Palestinians have a hard time accepting. By the way, I am not Jewish. I do love my Jewish brothers and will stand by them for eternity!!!
“His death is our ultimate ambition in life.”
Get real.
http://www.warhw.com/2009/01/15/the-war-of-words-israel-and-hamas/
Israeli Deputy defense minister Matan Vilnai wanted all of Gaza to be declared a “hostile entity” trying to create a legal loophole so that Israel could kill Palestinian civilians, promised to bring a holocaust on Gaza, wanted to declare sections of Gaza “combat zones” where the Israeli military could attack without repurcussions.
Major-General Gadi Eisenkot in the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth in October 2008: “We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective these [the villages] are military bases”
Disproportionate force and a failure to distinguish civilians from combatants are both violations of the geneva convention.
“Palestinians are like cancer. There are all sorts of solutions to cancerous manifestations. For the time being, I am applying chemotherapy.”
Moshe Y’alon, Israeli Chief-of-Staff
You’re little story is little more than propaganda.
Here are some facts to go with your version of reality:
http://www.warhw.com/2009/01/06/israeli-ceasefire-violation-november-2008/
In 2008, Hamas rockets killed 17 Israelis. Most of them before the ceasefire took effect in July. The ceasefire was working for four months when Israel violated the ceasefire by sending troops into Gaza and killing 6 members of Hamas. Hamas offered to extend the ceasefire for an additional year if Israel would lift its blockade of Gaza. Instead, Israel bombed and invaded Gaza for three weeks, killing 300 children, 100 women, displacing 100,000 people from their homes.
The blockade of Gaza is collective punishment, condemned by Amnesty International, condemned by Human RIghts Watch, condemned by various other humna rights groups. Jimmy Carter called it a “human rights crime”. In October of 2008, Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead McGuire protested Israel’s blockade of Gaza.
Anyone who wants to couch this narrative into some nonsense about someone living in their grandfathers house, and pretend like Israel has contributed nothing to the current situation is a propagandist or a fool.
“A little further along in our neighborhood we have a friend who supplies us secretly with stones and Molotov cocktails. He’s working on a big bomb that will reduce our neighbor to a miserable pile of atoms in a fraction of a second. That bomb will kill us too — that hellish thought is almost erotic. Our neighbor will burn, and we will as well, but one thing is certain: we won’t feel inferior anymore; at last we’ll have beaten him, in death — which we don’t fear, but he does.”
Wow, how this article gets to the heart of the matter better than anything else I have read.
——————————————-
By the way, I hope all you rich liberals out there are going to pay a bunch of taxes because Joe Biden said it’s your patriotic duty to do so and I am waiting for my share of the free stuff Obama promised me.
Might I suggest reading Joan Peters’ book “Since Time Immemorial”? She uses British records to look at the population change of the area that is now Lebanon, Israel and Jordan from the 1850s until 1950. Since the British Foreign office at the time was neither pro-Zionist nor pro-Jewish, their numbers are quite informative, as is her research.
A very accurate and decisive piece of writing that looks into the persona of a terrorist. If you rewind time back a couple of decades, you can apply this to white hatred for blacks, a couple of more decades to Nazi hatred for jews and I could go on and quote examples for every era. Unfortunately, in todays context it looks at Islamic Terrorism that exists. It is sad that teachings of a Prophet aimed at bringing his “tribal” people together divides them from the rest of humanity
Excellent piece – and some of the commenters…prove the point. They just can’t stop the hatred. It’s in their blood, or something. It’s hard to grasp for sane people – peace loving people just how warped the Jihadi folks are. Send women into buses on suicide missions. Dress up 3 year olds with a terrorist outfit, and preach hatred 24/7 to them, then watch them grow up to take down tall buildings.
I just shake my head. Give it a rest, just for one day. But they can’t and won’t. and don’t want to. Riding a powerful tsumani, and couldn’t get off if they wanted to.
There was never a Palestinian state. Go read a history book before reading Arab propaganda. The British gave Israel after the holocaust on territory the british controlled, and also created Jordan and Syria in the process. People should get their facts straight before making up lies on the Internet.
This used to be my house, you know
—So you say; if it was, it was a long time ago
It was my house before you ever lived here
—A very long time ago. If at all
It’s a big house, you weren’t even using all of it when I moved back in
—Even so, it was mine and I never asked you to move “back” in
I had the landlord’s permission; you didn’t even own the house
—It was still mine; I lived in it; no one asked me if you could move in
I’ve taken much better care of it than you ever did
–Doesn’t matter
My part has been renovated, yours is still rundown
—Doesn’t matter
I could help you fix up your part of it
—Don’t want your help
Look, I needed a place to live, I was desperate
—Too bad
They were trying to kill me out there on the street
—Not my fault
They did kill half my family
—Still not my fault
You shouldn’t have tried to break into my part of the house
—Why not? It was all mine
You organized your cousins to come and try to break my legs
—I’d do it again
That was the only reason I took over 6 more rooms that had been your family’s
—Yes, and my nephew had to move into my room, and 2 more nephews are out on the street.
Look, can we share the house?
—Give me back my 6 rooms first and we’ll see
But my brother-in-law and his family are living in two of those rooms now.
—Get him out.
There’ll be trouble if I try to do that.
—Not my problem.
If I do it, then can we share the rest?
—We’ll see.
Hey, do I have to drive you out of all of it!?
—Come and try. What if I set fire to the house?
What if I set fire to the house?
—What if?
What if?
Leave it God loving Christians with a “higher” sense of morality to attempt to justify their own completely immoral actions. Anyone who can’t understand why someone would fight back against a neighbor who hoards all of the resources in the area, treats the rest of the neighborhood like they are animals or worse, and then uses its vast media networks to spread propaganda and lies to gain support for their cause must be the truly insane people. Religion and the Bible were created by and written by MEN, not God. Ever wonder why the Vatican and the many closely tied banking families are BY FAR the wealthiest entities in the world? Tell people you can make them live forever and they’ll give you everything they have, including their own lives.
Terrorism is caused by oppression from people like yourselves who can’t figure out why treating people like animals would make them angry. You support oppression and justify it by pointing at a fiction book written by the same people who do the oppressing, and the people who are usually just trying to fight for some resources needed to live are the crazies. Stop the oppression and you stop the terrorism; it’s a very simple concept. If there aren’t people who have nothing left and nothing to hope for then there would be nobody to recruit into terrorist organizations.
I wonder what the United States would do if Canada started shooting rockets into the states from just inside the Canadian border? Would the whole world come down on the states for attacking those who hide weapons in hospitals, or shoot mortars from schools? Palestine is to blame for electing a radical bunch of animals that call themselves Hamas. These people are 13th century barbarians, Iran still uses stoning as a death penalty. Israel is the only sane country over there and if turning Gaza into rubble stops the rockets, so be it.
I have a big problem with Jews justifying their hold on the land because it was mandated by ‘God’. I can say the same thing, I can point to an ancient book written by my forefathers as proof, I can use the horrors of past injustices to soften opinion, but it won’t make my hold on someone else’s land any stronger. Oh, and you can’t reference that ancient book filled with wonderous stories as proof that those wonderous stories ever took place. And IIRC, wasn’t the land occupied when the Hebrews stumbled upon it? Kinda makes ‘God’ seem error prone.
Not very subtle, but mostly on-point. Though inclusion of such things as Palestine Mandate and the fact that there is an indigenous population of Christians (and even of Muslims that would rather be at peace) might strain the metaphor, these factors shouldn’t be forgotten. Still, this is, in broad strokes, a fairly accurate assessment of the situation.
FIRST OF ALL, IHOPE THAT PEACE FROM BOTH SIDE PREVAIL. HOWEVER, IT IS OPPRESSION, EXCLUSION, BIGOTRY, ECONOMIC SANCTIONS, AND HORRIFIC INTENTIONS, MOTIVES AND PURE BAD POLITICS THAT HAS CREATED THIS MESS. HOW CAN THE PALESTINIANS BE A TYPE 1 OR EVEN A TYPE 2 IF THEY ARE SANCTIONED AGAINST, THEIR AIR SPACE IS CONTROLLED AND THIER COAST AS WELL THEIR LANDS TAKEN FROM THEM. HOW CAN THEY PROSPER INTO A NATION, ITS OWN ARMY, ITS OWN ECONOMY IF THEY ARE NOR ALLOWED. THAT IS COMMUNISM. AGAIN, I HOPE THAT THE NEW ADMINISTRATION SEES BEYOND WHAT HAS SUMMED UP TO NOW. I HOPE THAT EQAULITY, FAIRNESS, JUSTICE, INCLUSIVENESS, LOVE PREVAILS. NO MORE CALCULATING POLITICS AND MOTIVES FOR POWER AND GREED. WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH HERE AND ABROAD. THANK YOU ALL FOR READING THIS. SHALOME AND SALAM-MALIKAM.
Here are some facts about the Middle East:
1/ Arabs are afraid of women. They may have been before, but they certainly were after the mother of Arabs and Jews sided with the (future) Jewish son. Tribal memory is eternal. They’ll never trust women.
2/ Israel is an arrogant, obnoxious neighbor, at ANY point in history. Just read the old testament. Jews know plenty about Jihad. If you weren’t going to worship ‘the one god’, you died. If you did, well, David boned your best woman.
3/ Arabs/Palestinians were accurately portrayed in the piece this blog is about, their cultural mindset that is.
4/ The once commentor saying Israel has about 25 years before the ‘ultimate suicide bombers’ take out Israel is right.
5/ When occupying someone else’s land, there are only 4 ways to do it:
a/ Kill them all, or so many it no longer matters, ex, the US Indians.
b/ Starve them out and retrain them. Britain did this during the Vietname war to some area it was having trouble with. There was no jungle warefare because the ‘enemy’ came out of the jungle just to eat.
c/ Leave and give them back their land.
d/ Take all their children, as they are born, and raise them as children of the occupiers. Or find some other way to erase the tribal memory mechanism. Essentially, murder the culture and the families’ cultures.
The easiest ones most used are (a) and (c), (a) most of all. The only known instance of (d) was done to, you guessed it, the 10 lost tribes of Israel. Why? Because the Turkish empire displaced the Jews, because they were low in power and arrogant neighbors. THEN, they found out how EXACTLY like the Palestinians were going to be, that the Jews became. While modern Jews are great contributors to any culture they live in, when they are in their ‘we have been wrong and we will fix that because we are god’s chosen people’ mode, they don’t integrate well. Hell, all desert cultures, ESPECIALLY Judaism don’t integrate well period. Anyway, accounts that I’ve read say that no Jew could marry another Jew, and teaching of ANYthing related to Judaism was instant death for the whole family. Hence, any remaining members of Jewish families who stayed around after the Assyrians took their lands stopped being Jews.
So, those are Israel’s choices. Because, the original article was right, the Palestinians will never lose their, “Must…Kill…Neighbor…With…Fist…of…Death!” thinking. Kill he Palestinians, leave them, or brainwash their children to not be Palestinians anymore.
I am a muslim who was born in a british colony. There is a big problem with the Jews and Palestinians they have no love and respcet for each other , they insill hate in their children at a very early age, i think if the people of Palistine get rid of Hamas who started it all, they will be better off, no one can bring peace if either of continue to hate each other. My heart ache for the poor little children and mothers they are the loosers not Hamas.And shame on Israel to continue the bombing on the poor innocent ones. Palestinians please don,t let Hamas use you this way.
now here is some real stink’in think’in
Hamas rockets killed 17 Israelis in 2008. Most of them were launched before the July 2008 ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
Israel violated the ceasefire in November.
Hamas offered to extend the ceasefire to a year if israel would lift its blockade.
Israel bombed and invaded Gaza for 3 weeks, killing 300 children and 100 women.
All because Hamas rockets killed 17 Israelis.
Before the ceasefire.
That Israel violated.
The Jews may have been motivated to move where they did by their biblical history: in modern times, though, they either bought the land, or properly gained it through right of conquest after being attacked.
The Palestinians can start by repudiating the Hamas Covenant. The surrounding Muslim and Arab countries can allow well-behaved Palestinians that want to move away from Hamas, to do so and re-settle in Arab and Muslim countries aside from Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt, and buy houses with their own money.
That would end the problem, and it would do it in less than a year.
After watching the show from post 69, I feel I have a much better understanding of the area. I was right behind Another View up to that point.
I think a lot of the problem with people not knowing these things are two things, one: the Jews I’ve known assume everyone knows this stuff, so it’s hard to get the information there. Plus they get pissed when I don’t know, but I can’t blame them for that. And two: Most of the religious fundamental Christians I’ve known, and/or heard of, are extremely antisemitic. Most who spoke up during the creation of Israel seemed to do so in order to keep the Jews out of their respective countries. Considering a lot of Nazis came to the Americas after WW2, the last thing they would want would be for the Jews to come here too.
Now why is this information so hard to come by? Most supporters of the state of Israel I’ve heard from rarely bring up any facts (they tend to be the crazy religious types, not saying religious types are crazy, just the crazy ones who also happen to be religious), while they might be correct in their feelings, they rarely know why. It is the same with those who believe Israel should not exist, although there seems to be even less truth behind their feelings, as they tend to just repeat the propaganda that tends to only bring up biblical reasons for Israel being recreated (before today I was one of them). If biblical reasons are the justification, then when the Romans tore Israel apart one would think that God wanted that to happen, since everything that happens is gods will in this line of logic.
It is almost like 2 groups of people, both historically despised by the traditional western world for one reason or another (and historically way ahead of the west until relatively recently in history, pre-crusades), are being pitted against each other to get them out of the way of the rest of the world’s dominance. I hope I’m just stretching my imagination, but then again, so did the Nazis AND the Romans, the things they pulled off still blow my mind. Romans are notorious for pitting cultures that were in their way (as in the way of their international/intercultural dominance) against each other, and eventually that led to their downfall when those different cultures stopped working for the Romans. Britain has also done the same thing in their history as well, and the US did the same with the natives here in America. We can’t turn back the clock and make the bad things that happened right, but we don’t have to repeat these mistakes by forgetting the past and becoming the next generation of people who fight amongst each other over lies that lead to hate and murder, and at the same time feeling like we don’t need to know the truth, or even understand why we do it. My faith is just in God and luck, not the power hungry who try to tell me what I should believe is true.
But then again, what do I know, I’m as much of a peasant as the rest. All I can say for certain is that I can’t say much with any certainty, especially when the mechanisms of propaganda as a tool to mess up other cultures and start wars is an art thousands of years old.
If I had known before what I know now about the middle east, I would have been more supportive of the ousting of Saddam, unfortunately it was orchestrated by a group of people who have no respect for a peasant’s intelligence. Or they just don’t like it when too many people support Israel, I don’t know. Times are crazy, too crazy. Feels like there’s a madman at the helm of the good ship Earth.
Oh, and the article sounds kind of nuts and oversimplifies the situation in a way that appears very counter productive. But I’m glad for the comments and what I was able to learn from everyone. Truth is truth, it’s not conservative or liberal or religious, it just is. These labels are being used to divide us when we should easily be able to agree, and we usually do if we take the time to give the other the same respect we want in return.
The person who keeps bringing up scripture and Mohammad telling his people to read the Bible should find out how much of the current Bible actually existed back then, especially before the Romans got their hands on it. You’ll find a few extra books, and a lot of missing ones, when compared to the current version. The older version was pretty good and popular, and it was able to “convert” people without the need for war. It’s one of the reasons the Romans made Christianity their official religion, while the rulers at the time tended to not adopt it themselves.
History is complicated to say the least.
Bob1, your post on history of conflict is perfect ‘common sense’ and in my view every bit as good as the article that started this comment string….
Lilith, your post on Native Americans is not. Native Americans have one of the longest histories of violence on the planet, (as Bob1 pointed out, that is a part, though sad, of the human condition). If you dispute this, explain why the oldest skeleton ever found in the Americas, Kennewick Man, had an arrowhead imbedded in his pelvic bone 9500 years ago…
I love how this author obviously thinks he is clever with his neighbor analogy but actually shows his stupidity by missing 99% of the complexity of the Israeli/Palestinian relationship. This author is just another conservative, ideologue idiot. Sure you can find Palestinians AND ISREALIS with this kind of bent thinking, but they are minorities. Its asses like this author that help foment anger by focusing on the most radical. The irony is that the story about someone who is so wrapped up in his bent view he can’t see any other perspective. Maybe its an autobiography.
You forgot to mention that your Grandfather was also HIS Grandfather, that’s kind of important.
this is a terrible work of fiction that fails to address the underlying causes of the conflict. My only fear is that sooner or later the oppressed will become the oppressors, just as the jews are doing it and the blacks in Zimbabwe ended becoming to the whites there. Sooner or later, unless we break this cycle of senseless oppression, the Palestinians will become the oppressors. No empire or kingdom lasts forever, and this region will be no exemption. Let’s work on reconciling without resorting to war or suppression. And if you think that the problem lies with Hamas, think again.
there is such a thing as an eye for an eye. some people got what they deserved. but in this case one side has overzealously gone overboard. a few men dont represent a whole people. i mean i get it if the perpetrator is caught and headshot but i dont get it when innocent lives are lost. and too many of them too. and disturbingly disproportionate. what of War Crimes and Criminal Negligence? does it still apply? Or is there a double standard that comes with the “victors” of war.
First of all, i find it very funny that all the people on this board that are throwing out slurs and hate speech are actually jews and zionists not arabs, yet they claim they are a peaceful people and that the arabs are the ones who are barbarians and full of hate. they completely missed the point of the article, although i dont think it accurately portrays the actual situation on the ground.
Basically the Israelis want to OCCUPY someones land, beat them down, take everything theyve ever had, destroy thier hope, put them in TWO VERY SMALL peices of land that arent even connected (Gaza, which is the 5th most densely populated piece of land in the world, and the West Bank), close thier borders to the outside world so they live in isolation, humiliation, and desperate poverty with barely anything or anyone going in and out, bombing the heck out of what little they have, flattening homes, killing innocent men women, and children, and then have the AUDACITY to claim that they have the right to live in peace on OCCUPIED LAND THAT BELONGS TO SOMEONE ELSE and label anyone who stands up to fight back for whats rightfully his as a terrorist!!! There whole argument is flawed!!!
Since when is the victim punished for the crimes of the perpetrator???? what kind of justice is that??? and then people wonder why the palestinians hate the israelis
Have any of you actually sat down and thought why the palestinians and arabs acutally hate the Isreali Zionists (and i say isreali zionists because it is them we dont like, not the jews)??? NO, they DIDNT just wake up one day and say F the jews, lets kill them all. in case you forgot, Isreal didnt exist 60 years ago. The isreali zionist people (who are acually from european and russian decent, not as they claim from “isreali” decent) didnt live ther 60 years ago, except for a small minority. The actually came from Europe after the horrors of the holocaust, helped the europeans who didnt want them in thier land so they shipped them to Palestine with the illusion that that land can one day be thiers.
Even then, the arabs welcomed the jews to thier land, and treated them with respect and dignity not showed to them from the europeans. Again, read that last sentence over and over because zionist seem to have selctive memories and dont tell you about that. The arabs actually welcome the jews, and lived peacefully side by side with them And then once there were enough jews there, a group of zionist claimed the country as only for the Jews, with the help of mainly AMerica, Brittain, and France, and slowly started stealing the land. These people are from european and russian decent. so how the hell can jews claim it is thiers now???????? they didnt even live there 60 years ago????????? Because thier religion said so???? Does that make it theres????? Again, These euro-russain jews werent even there in the first place!?!?!?!? if thats the case, then i can create a religion tomorow and say god told me that the world is mine and that i should be the king of the world. does that give me a legitimate claim??? HELL NO!!
I dont get how people dont see that, its so plain and easy to see. how can you claim Palestine is yours because supposedly your ancestors lived there THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. and even if they did, does that give you the right to steal it from the people who HAVE LIVED THERE FOR THE THOUSANDS OF YEARS SINCE THEN, and kick them out of it. Not only have they stolen Palestinian land, but they also stole land from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan!!!!!
Is this a nieghbor who wants peace as so many of you claim above?? Is this a civil, peace loving people??? I think not. actually, HELL NO is the better answer. I hate sound like some of the people on this board that i mentioned earlier, but to be honest it sounds more like a sneaky, greedy, thief who took advantage of the arab genoristy and sympathy to the horrors the jews suffored in the Holocaust. Zionists conveniantely forgot this point and are quick to label arabs as hateful terrorists. how conveniante. if you cant understand this point you are a RETARD, plain and simple. sorry to hurt your feelings retards, but TRUTH HURTS and the truth CANT HIDE FOREVER. as long as there is NO JUSTICE, THERE WILL NEVER BE PEACE because the arabs will never bend over for you, no matter however many you kill, torture, starve, imprison, etc. Again say that to yourself over and over. NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!!! its as simple as that.
The arabs dont want to “kill all the jews” and “wipe them off the map” as zionist and the media make you believe. They just want thier land back, which is rightfully thiers. This is not to say that the Jews are not welcome to live there alongside arabs, because THEY ARE. in the same way that they were welcomed there by the arabs in the first place. The difference is they are welcome to stay there NOT in the OCCUPIED LAND OF ISREAL, but in the FREE LAND OF PALESTINE.
Its really a simple matter at the end of the day. this is not a religious conflict no matter what radicals, the media, and politicians on both sides try to make you believe. It is simply A POLITICAL CONFLICT. A two state solution will never work because the arabs always feel like there land was stolen from them, and the isrealis will alsways feel like they didnt get enough land. The only solution is for them all to live in ONE, FREE, DEMOCRATIC STATE called PALESTINE. This, in my opinion is the only way Peace will ever happen there. The ball is in the ISREALIS court, if they really want “true, lasting peace” as they claim, then this is the road they should follow as they, not the arabs, are the ones that can make this a reality. Cus remeber, as long as there is NO JUSTICE, there will NEVER BE PEACE. thats not me saying it, but simply put, that is the way the world works. SIMPLE, RIGHT?
LOVE
And now I will show you the most excellent way. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the por and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Oh and in case the above is to complicated for some of your simple, ignorant minds, ask your self this simple question:
-What came first? The OCCUPATION or the “terrorist”?
To start with, most of you people who are against Israel
don’t know or have never read the Bible!! If you would read it, you would learn that because the people who had
become so wicked, to the point of offering their children
to idols by throwing them in the fire, or bowing down to
man-made idols (who could not talk or see)to worship them,
which GOD said “don’t do this”. This angered GOD. He let
them do this for years, hoping they would change. When Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt, GOD told them HE would
give them a “land flowing w/milk & honey.” HE told them
(after 10 men out of the 12,doubted who had been sent as
spies to spy out the land gave a fearful report)HE would
be with them to fight these enemies (who had angered GOD
by their wickedness)and take their land. SOoo,Who are you
people that think Israel has taken what wasn’t their’s that GOD gave them? Even after all the lands & people they conquered (with GOD’s Help) they even became wicked.
THEN..GOD allowed them to be taken into captivity by the
King of Babylon and Persia (Iraq & Iran). After 70 yrs of
captivity, some were allowed to go back to their beloved
Jerusalem and, rebuild the walls that had been torn down.
SO, before you ‘know it all’s’ start ranting and raving
@ Israel being so mean & killing ‘old women & chilren,
you need to read the Bible to get the whole truth!! Israel
has been very tolerant. What She should have said to the
palestinian arabs is : Go to Egypt, or Libya or Syria and
ask for some of their land, & see how far you get!! In
most places in the Bible GOD has told the Israelites
to kill the whole group of people, including the women,
children, all livestock! WHY? because GOD knew that if they only killed the men, the children would be raised up
to continue doing as they had been taught by the parents.
Actually, Lebanon & beyond belongs to Israel, if you look
at the boundaries of the land GOD gave them!
But, I’m sure most of you spouting hate against Israel will not even bother to read the Bible…you just don’t
want to know the ‘real truth!’
The land in question has always been a jewish land.In the year 70 AD the romans burned the jewish temple in Jerusalem.After that the occuping arabs came over the lands.But the land had been jewish for THOUSANDS of years before.The occupiers are the arabs.The reason Islam cannot compromise is because the Devil is intransigent and the king of lies.Islam is the Devil’s answwer to Christianity and Christianity message of love.If one reads the word ISLAM from right to left, as the arabs read and write, it gives you the real meaning of the religion (cult).It read MALSI:MAL means EVIL and SI means YES.Any religion that sentences you to death because you want to change to another religion,as Islam does,is not a religion but a cult.Islam has gone so far as to steal the discovers of the greeks,chinese and romans and told everybody it was their own discoveries.They did that at the begining of our era after they conquer the ancient lands of the Roman Empire.Islam is a religion (cult) that denigrates women although they proclaims the love them.Any religion that kills a woman because she falls in love with a man from another religion is sick and perverted.Until Islam is destroyed or at least marginalized, there will be no peace in this world.Islam hates everybody, including themselves.
I HAVE ONE COMMENT TO MAKE AND IT IS THAT WHEN A GROUP OR SOCIETY OR RACE OR IS UNDERMINED, NOT RECOGNIZED, AND TREATED AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, THEREFORE CREATES UPHEAVAL AND RESISTANCE. THE BIG QUESTION SHOULD BE ASKED BY ALL “WHY” THIS HAPPENING NOT WHAT BANDAID WE ARE GOING TO PUT ON IT FOR THE MOMENT. THE STRONG AND THE POWERFUL SHALL HELP THE WEAK WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS AND MOTIVES AND SELF INTEREST. RANDOM ACTS OF KINDNESS DOES NOT SAY WHAT DO I GET OUT THIS.
Ridiculous on every level. And not even good writing.
How about the embargo? How about the bombardment of the entire refugee camp? And that is just recent events? Oh, and about your little snide garden reference, Palestinians have lost like hundreds of thousands of live trees to Israeli destruction. Burnt and cut olive groves. There is an embargo on supplies, seeds, compost, etc, the things that help a person actually garden.
It is shallow analysis from war mongers in the USA (and my own country too) that is a threat to me and other Israelis’ security for real.
Another View states in post #24; “Please steer me correct.”
As per your request:
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 12:1-3)
“Let peoples serve you, And nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, And let your mother’s sons bow down to you. Cursed [be] everyone who curses you, And blessed [be] those who bless you!” (Genesis 27:29)
They shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David [shall be] their prince forever. (Ezekiel 37:25)
I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” (Ezekiel 37: 26-28)
Forever means FOREVER!
If you don’t like it, take it up with God, but leave His people alone for your own good.
I am their “adopted” brother, throught the Blood that was shed by Isa, Jesus!
You have been corrected!
Israeli states in post #90; “As for a solution – when a decent Palestinian leader accepts a two state solution – there will be peace”
It is not about land, it’s about the extermination of Jews. Read the Hamas charter.
Ha, you got me. I thought from the title that this was an interview with Arnon Soffer the Israeli advisor to Ariel Sharon.
“When 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe,” said Arnon Soffer, a prominent Israeli demographer who once advised Ariel Sharon. His observation was not made out of any sympathy for the people of Gaza but as a warning of what to expect if the Palestinians refuse to accept peace on Israel’s terms. Has the “shock and awe” unleashed by Israel in the last three weeks made the Palestinians any more pliant? All indications are to the contrary.
“If we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day,” said Soffer.
simple truth #90,
Is your middle name “deluded?”
Your rant exposes your pathology.
The simple truth…go back to what Bob1 wrote…while in your view, (and many others), the state of Israel exists on land stolen from the rightful owners…the reality is that it does exist.
That being the case, answer this one question: do you believe that the “Zionists” will ever agree to give up their country? If you answer yes, then the “retards” must have punked you out in jr high, and if you answer no, then what is your solution?
I get so tired of the meme that Israel hogs all the resources of the are. This was profferred twice in the above comments, and I’ve seen it elsewhere.
When the Jews were relocated to Palestine, it was barren. It was a desert. The Jews made the desert bloom. They built something out of nothing. They’re not hogging all the resources. The area actually has no resources. What resources it has, the Jews created.
greg in london has a strange way of rationalising the events… I assume he believes that israel should have killed 17 palestinians,and left it at that…
the rubbish about proportionality has no place in a war…should the US have bombed the japanese fleet after pearl harbor,and left it at that…? of course not.. crush your enemy…
although the palestinian children are brainwashed from their earliest age,and led to believe that killing innocent jewish people is their honor bound duty,it is very sad when they get killed or maimed…
as for the palestinians,they lie in the bed they made, electing a terror organisation to govern them,does not seem well thought out…
it is difficult to understand the widespread sympati for a people,including women and children, that all over the world was singing and dancing in the streets with joy, when 3000 innocent people was killed on 9-11..
that alone should be enough for any thinking person to support israel in it’s fight for survival in a sea of fanatic islamists….
Wow, what a gross oversimplification and generalization about an entire ethnic group of people. Let us ignore that Hamas was elected by a very tiny margin in Gaza. Let us just stereotype an entire group of people in order to justify our own racism and intolerance.
Perhaps Mr. Winter would like to write a follow up piece that equates all Israelis to the ultra-Orthodox as that appears to be who is currently running Israel’s policies right now. Or maybe a piece that accuses all Black people in America of being lazy and of using slavery as an excuse. Or, even better, perhaps he could go dig up some of the old racist rhetoric used by the Germans to depict “all the Jews” during the 1940′s for background in his next childish attempt at propoganda.
Ilan, the embargo, as well as the onerous checkpoints withing the west bank, as well as the blockade, came into being in 2007 after Hamas took over and are intended to prevent the smuggling of arms that would be used against Isral. Another goal of the embargo, (and a Mercy Corps shipment was held up for 2 days recently because it contained 500 pounds of dates, considered a ‘comfort food’ and thus denied by Israel) is to pressure the palestinians in Gaza to get rid of Hamas. The Palestinians who live in the West Bank under Abbas are going to school, work, and their church or mosque, and live in much better conditions than the ones in Gaza. For that matter, the 1.5 million Palestinians who live in Israel itself live even better than those in the West Bank. So they are living in the land of their ancestors, making better lives for themselves and their families, able to worship as they will….contrast that life to that of Palestinians under Hamas in Gaza…
This story, in a nutshell, is why we’ll NEVER have a lasting peace in the “Holy Land”, at least not until mankind has managed to exterminate ourselves.
De Winter’s article reminds me of a story I heard years ago, that comes from the region:
A turtle (an Israeli) was going to enter a river to swim to the other side. A scorpion (a Palestinian), seeing that the turtle was going to swim across the river said, “Will you let me ride on your shell so I can also get across the river?”
The turtle replied, “No, because will sting me with your stinger and kill me.”
The scorpian replied, “Oh no, I wouldn’t do that. I just want to get to the other side.”
The turtle thought about it, finally decided to assist the scorpian, allowed him unto his shell and started swimming across the river. Half across, the scorpian raised his stinger and struck the turtle in the neck; injecting the turtle with his poison.
The turtle, in shock and beginning to succumb to the poison said, “Why did you do that? Now both of us are going to drown.”
To which the scorpian replied: “But at least now YOU won’t make it across the river!”
excuse me the japanese were armed to the teeth with naval vessels subs n fighter planes and then-state-of-the-art-weapons. just kill the fighting/guilty party.. no need to PURPOSELY inflict damage to other innocent people. there are many stupid people in this world but that is no reason to kill them. stupid people have rights too. take alot of people here for example who fail to see the bigger picture and fail to see why the rest of the world are so angry and want a ceasefire.
Brilliant !!!
both sides hate each other. the west created the current state of isreal for their convenience . colonial masters have never really seriously cared for their colonies or their state creations . i am not aware of any just person from any religion or tribe who will want innocent people to suffer or die .nobody really owns land , we all are really caretakers . for all we know chinese may own the current land in dispute in time . what is needed now is peace , all sides have sinned and killed, though the isrealis have killed more innocents . isreal by virtue of their current superior military and economic might are in a better position to make peace.isreal should not add more hate unto themselves . isreal may not always have the upper hand , in time.
my solution seems crazy . .remove all borders.let their be only one state not named isreal or palestine with just laws and like a federation. isreal cannot lose because they are stronger. palestine cannot lose because they will have their land back , though to share. the hand that scolds should also draw closer.peace
Just a thought….if you’ll reread this slowly and carefully, could this also include some of the happenings in our own country? Do we not exhibit these same thoughts and feelings toward our neighbors across the street, or in another state or in the bigger or smaller house? Do we not want “dead” our neighbors who are of different faith, different color, different dress? Just because we feel “right” and it would be “justified” that we cause them intolerable “harm” so we deem our actions “proper” and “good”. And if by chance this neighbor was to “die” would we really be “happy” or would our hunger keep growing for yet another “neighbor” to die just because we said so? Where does all of this stop..better yet..why did it all start? I really hope anyone reading this does not waste a lot of his/her life trying to answer this thought. You all have a great day.
common sense…i dont know the answer to your question. its up to the isrealis to decide that. You obviously missed my final point. They do not have to give up the land as you put it, but to live in it peacefully as equals alongside the rightful owners as they did before the creation of the state of Isreal. This country would be called PALESTINE, not Isreal as it should be. I think this is the ONLY way peace will ever be possible, in my opinion. there is no other solution, as everything else weve tried obviously doesnt work and just make shit worse. can this actually happen? i dont know. the future holds the answer. but in this way the arabs get the land that was thiers back (in a methaforical sense)and the jews can live in the land that “God promised them” or whatever. win-win as i see it.
Look, at the end of the day God gave the world to humanity, not little pieces of land to different people. countries and politics and borders and all that BS is man made, and really the root of all evil not religion. like i said this conflict is poliical not religous. this is the only rational fair solution. unless u have a better idea.
And no, i dont let retards like you punk me. cus as i see it, you just exposed ur ignorance by trying to personally attack me to prove ur point.
anyways i have a question for you too. Do you think the arabs will ever get up and leave thier land for you?? i can help you with this one, the definate answer is NO unless you kill them all
>Read the Hamas charter.
And while you’re at it, listen to what Israeli officials say.
http://www.warhw.com/2009/01/15/the-war-of-words-israel-and-hamas/
“Palestinians are like cancer. There are all sorts of solutions to cancerous manifestations. For the time being, I am applying chemotherapy.” Moshe Y’alon, Israeli Chief-of-Staff
“Eventually we will have to thin out the number of Palestinians living in the territories.” Eitan Ben Eliahu, Israeli Air Force Commander
Israeli Deputy defense minister Matan Vilnai talked of bringing a holocaust down on Gaza.
“We will wield disproportionate power” Major-General Gadi Eisenkot
Who’s land is it?
According to God, Israel’s.
When did God promise the land?
Approximately 585 – 573 B.C.
“They shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever;” (Ezekiel 37:25)
When was the Qu’ran written?
In AD 633, the written text was compiled, and in AD 653 it was standardized.
Do the Qur’an and Muhammad affirm or reject the Bible? NO!!
Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light” (Surah 5:44a).
And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah…
(Surah 5:46).
Should a Muslim read the Bible? YES!
As the Qur’an says, reading the Bible will answer your questions: “If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt” (Surah 10:94).
Who’s land is it?
The Jews.
common sense….oh and to go back to what bob1 says, he writes:
“Who’s land is it?” The land belongs to whoever can hold it. That’s been the history of mankind since the beginning.”
well i can tell you this, times is on the side of the arabs. little isreal cant hold on to this land forever. they will eventually have to rethink things. so to go along with bob1′s train of thought, then basically the land will be for the arabs again
Well written. I like that this can be superimposed over almost any situation. The root of it all – in it’s most simplistic form – is wanting something that you don’t have any more and the refusal to start over with what you do have.
None of us can change the past, only the future. There are always choices – some are just worse than others.
First of all ,the jewish faith is about 5000-6000 years old ,way older than ‘the religion of peace’,so from that perspective alone jews have greater claim to that entire region, not just Israel. the jews were forced out of their ancesteral homeland by others, had they just been left alone they would never have ended up in places like europe,for example. its kind of ironic that the so called “palestinians”,many of them anyway, share common ancestry with the jews,that is to say that their ancestors were forced to convert to islam at the point of a sword.its either submit to the “religion of peace “or be executed,some choice! anyway,what kind of religion has as its founder a child molester? mohammed married a 6 year old child and consumated ,that is ,had sexual intercourse with the poor girl when she was 9 years old,so from the very start that religion was warped and twisted.
As portrayed in this article, I’d rather side with the arabs.
To be beaten down like a dog, but still stand up against your hated usurper in the face of all his torments is a noble thing. They’ve got a “never say die” attitude and are willing to throw everything else away in the pursuit of what they feel is justice, even as everyone else tries to lure them away from it with promises of rewards and peace.
Whether you disagree with their actual premise or not, their motivations are respectable. There is nothing inherently wrong with hate if it’s rooted in cause and reason.
DonJoe, i have a bit of knowledge in this.only a little. the real books wos unchanged but it became changed so muslims had the quran for their time. the unchanged book is a rarity and ver hard to find if not verifiable. that is what muslims believe i think.
How About Beginning the Article LIke This:
When I was young, my father used to beat the sh*t out of me. Sometimes he made me bleed. Now that I am a grown man, I do the same. It makes me feel strong. I hurt them because it makes me forget a time when I was the victim. I know they have done nothing wrong. But who cares? It’s all about me exorcizing the ghosts of my past. Sympathy for them? Nah. After I beat the sh*t out of them, I walk away as they lie on the floor injured with nothing but hatred for them. I lock myself in my den. And I cry. I lick my wounds from my childhood and I feel sorry for myself. They are not the victims. I am. Poor me. Poor me. Poor me.
Simple truth…I don’t mean to make this a back and forth between us…you’ve posted a number of viewpoints that a great number of people are in sympathy with and that in itself is educational, especially for some that don’t often read opposing points of view. You made my point for me…”anyways i have a question for you too. Do you think the arabs will ever get up and leave thier land for you?? i can help you with this one, the definate answer is NO unless you kill them all”
This is the same argument that the Israelis make when you ask them to give up their land. As I pointed out in #129, palestinians are living in the land of their ancestors alongside the jews. As I understand you, you have no problem with jews staying in the area, but you want it called “Palestine” not “Israel” correct?
I totally agree with your point “Look, at the end of the day God gave the world to humanity, not little pieces of land to different people. countries and politics and borders and all that BS is man made, and really the root of all evil not religion.” So if we agree that both the jews and the palestinians are always going to live in the land in question, and we also agree that the Palestinians deserve to have their own country called “Palestine” and that unless all the jews are killed, (not likely), then we are really only squabbling about whether or not East Jeruselum becomes the capital of a Palistinian country.
And, Mr. Common Sense, when was the first Qassam rocket launched into a civilian area in Israel from Gaza? Was it after Israel had begun to truly strangle off Gaza’s economic development? Because I think it was, in fact, I believe the first Qassam fell shortly after Israel decided to start destroy all of Gaza’s citrus orchards during the Second Intifada (i.e. prior to Hamas taking power). And Israel’s “closure” policies since Israeli’s forces left Gaza, has done little but consolidate Hamas’s power in the area. Because Israel has cut off Gaza from import/exporting any goods at all – the people of Gaza have no choice but to smuggle supplies from the outside world through underground tunnels. And who controls those tunnels? Hamas. Which means, that most people in Gaza have to do business with Hamas if they want to, say, not starve to death or buy stuff from criminals who may rip them off. Which, in turn, means that Hamas gains even more power Gaza and gets to shoot even more rockets at Israel.
If you want to talk about “common sense” and a pragmatic perspective of how to end the growth of militant groups in Gaza bent on attacking Israel – then Israel needs to recognize that Gaza needs alternative poles of power to emerge through economic development in the society. Unfortunately, Israel’s policy over the last several years has simply been to bulldoze, sanction, and blow up any sign of economic development in Gaza and reduce the ability of any moderate (or even alternative) poles of power in the area to emerge other than Hamas’s. In 2000, Israel crippled Gaza’s economy by, effectively, bulldozing its citrus sector to death. In 2005, Israel’s closure policies led to over 90% of the factories in Gaza being shut down. The result has been that Hamas began to gain power. When people lose their jobs, they get angry. When they get angry, they give support to people who reflect that anger – and Hamas has been feeding off that anger to its advantage for years.
In short, if Israel wonders why Hamas took power in Gaza – it only needs to look at its own policies. Now, you could argue that Israel’s policies are only in reaction to militant activities, and are a legitimate attempt to get the Palestinian people to rise up against groups like Hamas who are the “real ones” to blame for their predicament. But can you think of a single example of when restricting economic development in a nation at odds with your own has ever actually worked?
Because, lets see, we (in America) have had sanctions on Cuba forever – which is right next door to us – and Castro’s still in power. We had sanctions on Iraq – and Saddam’s power within the country only became consolidated to the point at which we then had to go invade the entire country. Our sanctions on Iran apparently haven’t worked since it’s still an Islamic theocracy. During the Cold War, China didn’t begin to liberalize its economy and begin to make changes to their regime until Nixon opened up trade with them. In short, carrots always work better than sticks. You use a stick and people get mad and then they go and give immediate support to whoever is in power. We gave it to Bush after 9/11. He invaded our privacy, reduced our rights, and otherwise acted like an imbecile – and he still got re-elected.
In short, you want to get a group of people to stop hating you and shooting at you? Engage in trade with them and make it against their vested interests to shoot at you. Mexico doesn’t fire rockets at us because we’re their best client. That would be stupid. Who else would buy their fine manufactured goods? Or their drugs? Or employ their children? Unfortunately, the radical, nut-job – and I’m going to say it – racist elements within Israel refuse to trade with Palestinians or engage them in any manner other than to shoot at them or, as the ultra-Orthodox settlements in the West Bank like to do, go lynching and burning down Palestinian homes. They don’t want economic development in those areas because they believe that G-d has given them a mandate to take back ALL of the lands written about in the Torah. For them, the Six Day war was a miracle and sign from G-d that they have a religious imperative to eliminate all non-Jews from their biblical lands.
So, perhaps, a more balanced piece on this debate than the one Mr. Winter has written would analyze why Israel continues to allow its own government’s policies to continue to be dominated by a handful of insane religious fanatics instead of more “common sense” approaches.
patrick, the age of aishah when she married wos and still is highly debatable even in the muslim world. some say 9, some say 12,others 14 and some 17 or 18. It rly is easier to choose the youngest age to demean people. do also consider the accepted norm of the people of the time.
except that everything in this article is a bunch of garbage. we are really to believe that the “neighbor” in this idiotic little story is just a helpless victim that wants to live in peace. well maybe that neighbor should stop slaughtering the children in the neighborhood and building walls through my yard. the one he didnt buy. and maybe he should stop grabbing me by throat and humiliating me by forcing my face into his dogs shit every time i want to go to the store for a pack of cigarettes. maybe if my neighbor stopped firing his bazooka at my children every time they threw pebbles at this bulletproof house and building his relatives homes in my yard…i might think him neighborly.
Simple truth…also, I didn’t call you a retard, (and you are the one who began calling people that name, btw), I simply pointed out that no logical person could answer ‘yes’ to that question…and if you think that the arabs are going to beat Israel on the battlefield, you need to brush up on your history…oh, and despite how the relationship is often characterized, the US serves to rein in Israel in a lot of situations. You think time is on the side of the Arabs? The jews have stuck around for thousands of years under a common belief structure against almost the entire world, been massacured numerous times, and still kicked the absolute s**t out of the entire arab world in the ’68 war. Oh, and they also have about 100 nukes…I wouldn’t hold my breath for them to lose any armed conflict…
Why is it that the Palestinian people are rejected by other Arab countries? Jordan doesn’t want them, neither does Egypt. They are pawns in the Geopolitical grab for power by the Shia and Iran. Let’s get real. Yassar Arafat, the former Palestinian Leader stole billions and left his people in poverty. No money for education, schools, hospitals….the power vacuum left Hamas the defacto “protector” of the Palestinians and look how well that’s going.
I know a lot of pro-Jewish/non-Jewish posters are aware of the Old Testament texts concerning God’s commandments to the Jews on their return, but the passage I take to heart most is Gen 12:3
As an American citizen, all I’d like to add is Thanks Harry [S Truman] …
At least when a mole digs a tunnel, it does so to find plant roots on which to feed itself.
Sandy Cash: you are so right. I want to ask the world why, when Palestinians lob dozens of rockets over the border into Isreal, on a daily basis… do you remain quiet over that violence? Nothing is said or done.
Then, when Isreal cannot continue to allow its citizens to be threatened any long, and they retaliate, the World cannot condemn Isreal fast enough. That is not justice.
If you want to reduce the authority of a militant government – you need to create economic development and encourage the emergence of different, balancing, poles of power. Our (American) society is based on the idea that we divide poles of power, not only in our government, but in our society as well. Business, Religion and Government are all separated. When Business and the State becomes one – you get Facism. When Religion and the State becomes one – you get the Dark Ages or, even worse, Missouri. The judiciary, legislature and executive powers are, again, all separated. Even our government itself is sub-divided between the states and the Federal government. Why? The point of separating power is that it reduces the ability of extremist nut-jobs to dominate the affairs of a country. When you divide power amongst competing groups, it becomes the middle – and moderate – portions of a country which tend to exercise the most control. And people in the middle generally don’t go shooting rockets at their neighbors.
Unfortunately, Israel’s policy over the last several years has simply been to bulldoze, sanction, and blow up any sign of economic development in Gaza and reduce the ability of any moderate (or even alternative) poles of power in the area to emerge other than Hamas’s. In 2000, Israel crippled Gaza’s economy by, effectively, bulldozing its citrus sector to death. In 2005, Israel’s closure policies led to over 90% of the factories in Gaza being shut down. The result has been that Hamas began to gain power. When people lose their jobs, they get angry. When they get angry, they give support to people who reflect that anger – and Hamas has been feeding off that anger to its advantage for years.
Case in point – when was the first Qassam rocket launched into a civilian area in Israel from Gaza? Was it after Israel had begun to truly strangle off Gaza’s economic development? Because I think it was, in fact, I believe the first Qassam fell shortly after Israel decided to start destroy all of Gaza’s citrus orchards. And it’s “closure” policies have done little but consolidate Hamas’s power in the area. Because Israel has cut off Gaza from import/exporting any goods at all – the people of Gaza have no choice but to smuggle supplies from the outside world through underground tunnels. And who controls those tunnels? Hamas. Which means, that most people in Gaza have to do business with Hamas if they want to, say, not starve to death or buy stuff from criminals who may rip them off. Which, in turn, means that Hamas gains even more power and gets to shoot even more rockets at Israel.
Brit, in an ideal world if 1 person died, 1 person would stand up and protest. if 100 pepople died, 100 people would stand up and protest. it’s very simple mathematics really.
Why has GOD,not put an end to all this conflict,this death,this destruction on his sacred land.
In the bible, God does wonderful awesome things, He caused the great flood to wipe out sin, He gave powers to Moses to free his people. Yet he allowed things like slavery,the holocaust. When is enough. enough? Sometimes i think our awesome god has been weakend, by mans continued destruction of mother earth. When will he reach his next breaking point. When will he decide to bring this wicked world to its knee’s. GOD HUMANKIND IS EVIL<WE ARE WICKED CREATURES, Who destroy what we dont understand. We kill you’re animals not to survive, but just for the heck of it. It makes us feel good to slaughter creatures who have walked this earth for years. Its time God, to end all this. Only you have the POWER, to bring mankind to its knee’s.
thank you R seeing this objectively.
Those who hate shall and will be consumed and destroyed by their hate. While both sides have been guilty of getting disagreements going at least Israel has been trying to forgive, forget and live at Peace with their neighbors. However, as this article plainly states—the neighbors have been thawing rocks at the other side and it is the Palestine who are causing the problems by teaching their children to hate Jews. This is not solving a 2000-year-old problem that goes back to Masada, is directly responsible for the problems of today, and made worst by the British. Israel has been forced to take extreme measures to defend herself, which even Jews within Israel and in other countries have been shocked and disagreed with these actions in favor of better treatment of Palestinians. Do you think that they Palestinians appreciate Jews caring about them? No because they are too consumed by hatred and the immovable stance that all Jews should be exterminated—that to Jews is a re-hash of the Nazi fallacious philosophy of the final solution.
Yes, the Palestinians deserve to have their own country but so does Israel and both deserve to live in peace and tranquility with each other. To that end, Israel agreed to try to live in Peace by giving up lands for the Palestinians forcing Jews out of the Golan Heights and Gaza. This was not appreciated and the children of the children’s children continued to throw rocks and hate because their parents taught them to and spread this societal sickness to their children. The hatreds and misgivings on both sides are very profound–so profound that those who have immigrated to other countries quickly become enraptured with hate and anger when the subject of Israeli-Palestinian relations comes up—as my Lebanese neighbor does who has been in the US since the 1960s.
What needs to happen to resolve these problems is that the children of both Jews and Palestinians need to be conscripted from their parents for 40 years and required to attend integrated schools which will teach these kids to live in peace and harmony with each other and not listen to or fall subject to the hatred sicknesses of their parents. This will work–it has worked in South Africa and in the United States–although no conscription was necessary in these countries.
Conscription would be necessary because the hatreds are so profound and deep-seated that they will not go away as easily as they did in the US and South Africa. Fifty years after the legal ban on racial discrimination in the United States—one does not see the kind of things that one saw during the apartheid of segregation.
For Mr. De Winter’s analogy to be correct, it must be explained that the neighbor who lives in our grandfather’s house controls when we can enter or leave our own house. He has had a nasty habit of building more houses for his relatives in our yard. More recently he has built a giant wall through our yard. And in the case of Gaza, since we chose Hamas to run our house for us, he has tried any way he could think of to make us change our mind, including a total siege of our place. He now wants to control when and how we can buy food, go to work, etc. Now, if you were faced with such a neighbor, and the “authorities” were either unable or unwilling to help you, you might turn violent too.
Remember that God created us in His image – that is why we have Free Will. That means not everything that happens for good or bad comes from Him. Man has to take responsibility for his own actions.
God has intervened in the past and will do so in the future, when He chooses.
The Israelis and Palestinians both claim the land as their birthright. Peace will only come when they decide how to share the land or one/both are wiped out. The latter seems a very poor choice IMO if you look to History for examples.
R…WOW! A literate and well read person who can also string together a logical and evidenced based argument?? You should be advising Obama, (and I’m serious).
The radical elements do truly run much of Israels government. I am not defending their actions. It simply seems to me that when they do take unilateral steps in the right direction, i.e. forcibly removing settlers out of the West Bank and ceding it to the palestinians under Abbas, the radical elements opposed to them respond by calling Abbas weak and a pawn of the zionists, (even though he is achieving something Hamas is not, namely to creation of a peaceful place to call their own).
Your post shows the complexity of the situation and obviously it will not be solved by anything as simplistic as people posting, “why can we just all get along,” but some basic first steps can be made.
It is difficult for Israel to find anyone to actually talk to in Gaza. Nothing Israel promises to do will extract a meaningful promise from Hamas to stop shooting rockets at them. If Israel opens up the borders of Gaza, I’d lay money down that rockets and mortor shells beat rice and figs into Gaza.
I’ve yet to have anyone explain how Israels initial position can be faulted, “stop firing rockets at us, stop smuggling weapons, and we will begin to normalize relations with you.” And they are doing just that in the West Bank.
I have some questions to the Israel supporters among your readers:
Is Israel able to defend itself (without American support, of course)
Is such a situation what Zionism was about?
Are Jews around the world safer now that the state of Israel exist? And after the Gaza war?
What is Israel going to do to survive the decline of the USA as the sole world superpower, if it ever happen?
Does anybody doubt it will, eventually?
What is Israel going to do if public opinion in the USA about the Middle East changes, and a strong outspoken constituency starts seeing things from the perspective of human rights, (you know one person one vote, democracy, that kind of things)?
Assuming that Iran is destroyed in a nuclear holocaust, how many years will it take until some other Middle Eastern power gets the bomb?
How will Israel survive in a radioactive neighborhood? Who is going to buy her products?
If Israel’s neighbors are so irrational, evil and satanic, why do you think that bombing them to bits is going to do any good?
Gaza was a waste land b-4 the Jews settled it. If the Arabs were so concerned for the Palestinians why did they not take them in prior to 1948? They did not want them, they considered them sub human. The Arabs, just like Hamas, use them like a tool for their needs. They don’t care for them or they would smuggle in things their people needed rather than bombs and tools of their own destruction. As far as the argument of dis-proportionate retaliation, riddle me this: If someone came up and slapped your Mother you can do one of three things.
1.) Turn the other cheek (and hope that they don’t slap her again.)
2.) Slap them back (and hope they don’t slap her again.)
3.) Beat the hell out of them so they know not to slap you mother again.
Which one would you choose?
explain how Israels initial position can be faulted, “stop firing rockets at us, stop smuggling weapons, and we will begin to normalize relations with you.”
Hamas stopped firing rockets in July 2008 when Israel and Hamas signed a ceasefire agreement. In the next four months, rockets stopped. In november 4, Israel violated the ceasefire by sending troops into gaza and killing several members of Hamas. On November 5, Israel tightened the blockade on Gaza, freezing currency, stopping fuel and medicine, and even slowing down food to a land where half the population lived below the poverty line.
Hamas rockets only started up after November 4.
The ceasefire had been working until Israel violated it. Hamas even offered to extend the ceasefire by a year, if Israel would lift the blockade. Israel turned down this offer and instead bombed and invaded Gaza.
Israel’s war against Gaza had nothing to do with stopping the rockets, anymore than George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq had anythign to do with WMD’s.
When the British gave land to the Jews so they would have a state of their own the arabs in the region were nomadic and had done nothing to improve their own lot in life.
When offered the choice of staying in the new state of Israel or going to other muslim countries people had a choice. The ones who chose to live in Israel now have a decent standard of living and have been treated fairly (they are now almost the majority of people in Israel).
The ones who went to muslim countries are still living in relocation camps. They have never been integrated or assimilated into the country where they sought to live with their muslim “brothers”. That is how muslims treat their own people. Let’s see, it has been over 60 years and they are still living in relocation camps with no chance of decent jobs, education etc……and this is where they train the terrorists…..men and women who have no hope as they have been treated so poorly.
When the people arrived in Israel, finally having a place to call home they immediately made the desert bloom. They were the first to use hydroponic gardening. They were industrious and created a decent place for all to live. Ask the arab people who live there if they want to leave and live in a muslim country……no way! I agree with the people who have stated there has never been a Palestine or palestinian country. That is a figment of the imagination in the mind of people who have chosen time and again the wrong leaders and stress, instead of a decent work ethic, that the way to success is to kill, maim and hate your neighbor. None of this is part of the Bible….that they are to read but it is illegal to have……or their Koran (Quaran). Just like making women go back to living in the 15th century…..no where in the Koran does it call for hijab or burkas. It says to dress modestly….which is good for all women and men alike everywhere.
Instead women are being denied basic rights in these male dominated muslim states. Look at Saudia Arabia…..supposedly a friend to the USA. How many “Palestinians” have they brought into their country to educate and place in decent living conditions…..you won’t run out of fingers when you count. Saudis live like pashas and care not one iota for their own brothers and sisters in the muslim faith……in fact they might just want you dead if you do not adhere to Wasabism (sp?)
Personally, although I am neither jew or muslim I wish the Israelis would stop catering to world opinion and just get rid of these troublemakers who constantly kill and harm peace loving people.
I do not know about sewage running into villages but historically the Israelis have improved their land whilst the arabs have done not one thing to improve their land, or lives for hundreds of years. They are a sorry lot and until they educate their children properly and work to make a better life they will only cause problems for any people who do.
A prominent “Palestinian” woman scholar called her own people to task regarding what they had done with their lives vs what the Israelis had done with theirs. Her TV address can be found (if it has not been eliminated) on youtube…..She itemized what the Israelis have accomplished in science, music, technology, medicine, etc, etc, etc. and contrasts it with the fact that arabs have not contributed anything since the 10th century. Look her up……especially those of you who are arab/muslim…..this is one of your own telling it like it is. AMEN
The best way of understanding Muslim/Arab intentions, is by looking at what they have created in the regions in which they hold the power.
Here it is: death to the Jews, death to the homosexuals, death to brazen women, death to persons with an independant religious conscience, death to Copts, death to Yahdzis, death to Assyrians, death to Maronites, death to the Druze, etc etc etc.
It’s just awful, the way that people pick on them.
The creation of israel displaced thousands of arabs who had ancestral ties to their land going back hundreds of years. If your father and granfather had their land taken away and the aggressors subject u to daily humiliation with checkpoints, blockade, walls, prevention of self rule etc. i guess u be pretty pissed off as well. And please dont give me that rubbish about israel having a valid claim over palestine just becaise supposedly their ancestors live there 3000 years ago. If thats case then the native americans should have their land back
It’s really a pretty good little story. It may not reflect the viewpoint of all Palestinians, but it certainly reflects the viewpoint of the militants. Of course, the reality isn’t that simple. The reality is that some “grandfathers” stories about stolen houses are accurate. But, it is more likely that grandfather really did sell all or part of the house. The story also leaves out little details like it was the “neighbor” (Jews) who introduced terrorism to the region (check out the King David Hotel bombing). Previous posters who pointed out that there were no people called Palestinians at the time of the UN Mandate are accurate. If the “cousins” and “neighbors” of their own religous persuasion had opened their borders in 1948, there wouldn’t be a problem today. Another View–you need a good course in Middle East history. For those who made the analogy of Native Americans…go study their history. I live in an area that was occupied by the Sioux tribe when Europeans arrived. You won’t find any Sioux reservations in several hundred miles because the Chippewa drove them out and stole their land. Hard for me to get too exercised about Europeand doing to the Chippewa what the Chippewa did to the Sioux 100 years earlier. The truth is that throughout human history, land belonged to the people who were strong enough to take it and keep it. Germany is German today because the Germanic tribes drove the Celts out. England is England because the Anglo-Saxons drove the Celts out and were in turn beaten by Normans. Israel is Israel because Jewish settlers in the early 20th century were strong enough to take the land economically and then hold it militarily in the second 1/2 of the . Islam exists because Muhammed burned and killed his way through mostly animistic tribal territories and established central government under the guise of religion. Shia and Sunni have been kiiling each other for generation on generation because of a political feud that took on a religous nature. There is no clear moral high ground here and never will be.
In response to #62 DocMike: I noticed that most of ur bible texts r taken mostly from Old Testiment…Ur not suggesting that (Mathew 10:34) Christ was refering, that, if need be, he and his followers were to kill non-believers, even women and children, for the sake of Christianity, r you? After all he did rebuked Peter when Peter used the sword to cut-off the soldiers ear…I do understand that with the Old Testament came New Testament, a “New Covenant”…In reference to Mathew 10:34, “but a sword”, we all know that the Bible is refered to as the “Double-Edge Sword”.. We also know that Christ is the “living word (the Bible)”… try to put those two together…Scince Christ and his disciples never killed or even hurt anyone physically, (please correct me if I’m wrong) wouldn’t U agree that Mathew 10:34 can b taken out of true meaning? I think that “turn ur other cheek” and “love ur enemy” fit well with Christs teachings of Infinite Love…I will not comment on the Israel/Palistine issue yet, I will study more and more on this issue, but as for Jesus Christ, My “Savior”, I will say that he represents “Love and Peace” (prince of peace) not hate and kill, most specially women and children (the woman at the well)…After all what poeple will we try to convert into our loving faith if we decide to kill them all? Yes, the Old Testament has bloody stories that r hard to explain…”Horrendous thing it is to fall in the hands of God, our creator”… but U leave Jesus Christ out of it. His Father has passed on permission to save the world…There’s no blood on his hands! He has no sin! Please don’t try to tie him up with any Old Testiment killings! After all, if we were to live in Old Testiment times, God would not have sent his son to save the world! “My Hero” Jesus Christ!
Kudos to Leon de Winter. This is a very good article. A++++
Kid Kev that is a very interesting question. however some options are wrong. if someone came up and slapped ur mother, you can do one of three things:
1.) Turn the other cheek (and hope that they don’t slap her again.)
2.) Slap them back (and hope they don’t slap her again.)
3.) Beat and kill the hell out of them, their family, their neighbors and any other person in your way be it an innocent child or some UN worker, so they know not to slap you mother again.
which one did israel choose? can u tell me which one? dont get me wrong, hamas is clearly wrong but u guys are wronger
Remember…God supported by biblical / Jewish writings did not give the Jews land for their state…the UN did. And the subsequent displacement of the indigenous Arab population is the core of the Mid east crisis.
Even if the Iraq invasion had had short term positive results the US would still have to deal with the Palestinian question. With the US’s unabashed support of Israel we will be perceived as not sympathetic to the Palestinian / Arabic plight.
Now the question of how to equitable compensate the the Arabs or Israel abandoning lands is now a complex question. Israel’s policy of encroaching and building on Arab lands has exacerbating the situation.
I believe that there are plenty of people in Gaza and the West Bank who want nothing more than to leave Israel alone and be left alone by Israel. I don’t believe that the mindset portrayed in this piece is the prevalent mindset.
The Palestinian people have always been dominated by terrorists. First was Arafat and now Hamas. They run the Palestinians like the Mafia used to run the neighborhoods in New York. No one resisted, everyone went along and everyone lived in fear. It’s the same in Gaza.
The only way for the Palestinians to have peace, the only way for Israel to have peace is for Hamas to be destroyed. Wiped out and destroyed. Then peace will come. We are already seeing it in Iraq. The people have turned on the terrorists and peace is coming.
First, I find it hilarius that some don’t understand what the message the author is trying to convey and simply agree with him, I guess it shows why some narrow mindedly see only one side, which help to fan flames of antisemitism. Secondly, I know it may seem odd, but why not try a differnet approach, since the way currently taken isn’t working. Try giving your neighbors what they want. Let then see you angry, upset, mad. Let them see the government of Israel trample on it’s citizens and their rights for the sake of the palestinians. Let them see the images beamed across the globe of the IDF ripping innocent settlers out of their homes and having rocks thrown at them, causing greater divides among citizens of the jewish state. Then have some of the lands they have been “freedom fighting” for given back to them, with all the amenities they didn’t have, with all the blessig of the nation of Israel. Let them see. But don’t really do. Let it be an open secret among jews. a conspiracy theorists fantasy. That way the world can see that no matter how much Israel gives, no matter how much it seems it is ready to surrender for the sake of piece, that never will it be enough. Or maybe it will, and in these places, which the world “seen” the “settlers” “uprooted”, then maybe that wil give them satisfaction and give rise to a new time of peace. If all the world is a stage, then all the world will be watching. I dont know, maybe just try something new, since this way isn’t working, or are the lives of innocents not worth the trouble of some theatrics and a few dollars? Might it work?
Wow..when palestinians standing for their rights its terrorism but when jews took away arabs lands (because lets face it thats what happened when israel was created) its ok because “The truth is that throughout human history, land belonged to the people who were strong enough to take it and keep it.” Hypocrites
Ken, u wrote: Islam exists because Muhammed burned and killed his way through mostly animistic tribal territories and established central government under the guise of religion.
i dont know… thats not what the history books wrote. rly i cant find any references on that. i thought they were the ones who were attacked by tribes when muhammad wos around? n he took over some place when the other side broke a truce?
170. the rest of the WORLD:
These innocent people are killed because these cowards use them as shields! That is why they fire them from schools and other public places, so they can use the innocent people as collateral damages. Last week a mortar position was bombed and a dozen innocent people standing 100 yards away were injured. I don’t know about you, but if someone was launching rockets at other people that I knew would strike back I would not be standing around watching. They were probably there cheering them on. I cannot think of another reason they would be watching this can you?
Let me tell you story. My family immigrated to the USA in Colonial times. Signed the Declaration of Independence, fought the british, fought the indians, defended the USA during the Civil War. Then one day my Great-Grandfather was forcibly removed from his home by the Army. Dragged across the country, deposited in Canada and was warned that if he re-entered the country he would be shot on site. Then they filed a court order to have all of his belongings confiscated and sold, the family cemetary was dug up and the the corpses destroyed. My father contacted the Federal Government and they were nice they helped us get our home back and compensated us for our belongings and now my neighbor keeps trying to kill me. They call me monkey and pigboy. Someone help me please my neighbors are trying to kill me!
Hey Greg, So basically, you’re saying that Hamas, from July 2008, until Nov. 4, 2008, fired not rockets into Israel? I’m curious what your opinion of the real motivations of Israel. Why in your view did Israel violate the cease fire? (And I’m pretty sure that the ceasefire expired, and within a week Hamas sent 200 rockets into Israel). But seriously, you don’t think Israel wants to stop the rockets, you don’t think Bush went into Iraq because he was worried that an anti-American dictator possessed chemical and biological WMD and that dictator was involved in funding suicide bombers and might want to give said bombers some nerve gas to use against americans, (btw, this is kind of cute, notice how you blame Israel for their military policy, but don’t blame the US, just Bush…like he went in alone…), What is their goal?
Excelent article. But it is not very reassuring to see leftists such as Another View and Bannister cheering for nuclear holocaust. They are clearly as bent on destruction and as deranged as the palestinians themselves. No wonder they love them.
Sad fact is, if the jews (Israel) were not there, the place would be as desolated and miserable as so many other regions in Africa or in the muslim world. The idea that the Palestinian Arabs, who could not build anything by themselves in Gaza or or the West Bank, would finally build a free and prosperous society once they destroy Israel and have their land is laughable. Gaza (Hamastan) is “Palestine”.
common sense…look when i say time is on the side of the arabs it is because of the demographics of the region. basically as of 2008 in isreal and palestine, the population is such that there are 5.5 million palestinians and 5.4 million jews. by 2020, the population will that there will be 8.5 million palestinians and only 6.4 million jews. the palestian population includes arab-isrealis living within the isreals borders. this is according to the current 2009 january Time Magazine article called Can Israel Survive? you can check it out if your interested.
So basically in just 11 years, the isrealis will find themselves significalntly outnumbered. the balance of power will slowly shift, and eventually after some time, and thousands of innocent people senselessly dieing, isrealis will actuually find that they will lose the upperhand and might end up with the short end of the stick. so unless the two sides can find a just solution before that happens, which i think the solution i proposed is the only logical solution, zionists might find thier dream of an isreali state soley for the jewish people lost sooner than they think as it cant last forever as it currently exists. and zionist now this, which is why they are desperately opposed to the right of the 2 million + palestinian refugees to return to palestine today because that would be like pressing fast forward.
and before you or someone here tries to make the flawed assertation that isreal is a democratic country, and the palestinians can live with them if they behave, let me enlighten you. The whole premise of the State of Isreal is a Jewish state SOLEY for the jewish people. so to be an isreali citizen, you HAVE TO BE of jewish decent (pretty much a decendent of the euro-russian jews that are nnow occupying palestine) which i believe is traced back only through your mother not father. otherwise you cant be a full israeli citizen. yes there are arab-isrealis (muslim and christians) and other peoples that live within the borders of isreal, but they are not considered full isreali citizens. they are considered second class citizens, if that, without the same rights as isreali citizens and are discriminated against socially, economically, and politically. they are in no way equals. even black jews of african decent are not considered full citizens because they do not meet the required criteria.
so overtime, based on population birthrates, the isreali-arab minority within isreals border will eventually be the majority, and based on that and history, isrealis will not be able to hold them down as second class citizens forever, and the arabs would eventually overthrow the isreali government. add to that the growing populations of gaza and the west bank, the current sate of isreal as it stands today is a ticking time bomb.
all the weapons isreal will be useless then, even its nukes. even today, the nukes isreal has are kinda useless against the palestinians any way because the isrealis will be f-ing themselves up too since the whole area of palestine plus isreal is very small. it would be like shooting yourself in the foot to kill a fly. add to that the possibilty of iran getting a nuclear weapon, and isreals arsenal is more or less useless. i dont think isreal and iran would ever use nuclear weapons against each other, but isreal desperately fears iran gettin a nuclear weapon because it will dramitically shift the balance of power in the region. isreal would no longer have the upper hand and will not be able to bully its nieghbors to get its way anymore.
so again i say, the only practical logical solution is to create one country, something like the United States, where arabs and jews or anyone for that matter can live together equally represented in there governtment. Jeruselem would be the capital and you can call the country whatever you want. palestine preferably but honestly at the end of the day, who cares? whats in a name anyway?
however, if this zionist mentality of occupying and oppressing the arab popultion continues, what i explained above is bound to happen as has happened over and over thorughout history and zionists will find themselves sh*t out of luck living within a possibly hostile arab state.
on the other hand, if both sides cant agree on living together in one state, and insist on the zionist and hamas mentality, then this conflict will last forever continueing until the day of judgement because realistically speaking niether side is just gonna get up and leave. hopefully this isnt the case. well see
oh yea, i forgot to add this. in case your wondering the population within the borders of the state of isreal is 7.1 million of which 5.4 million are jews and 1.6 million are so called israeli arabs.
To all, my brothers,
If people will put God, His words and His wishes, manifested through His Laws, into the EQUATION of our lives, then we WILL have PEACE and TRUE HAPPINESS in this world. If we all do that, or if we can all do that, then Satan will have no followers.
As it has been and as it is now, Satan has the great majority of peoples in this world following him and many adoring him and his ways. Satan exists and he destroys men’s lives through false religions, money, women, fashion and many more. We can only have the power to outwit Satan if we put God into the equation or our lives.
It is obvious that as human beings, we have failed in our quest for peace and happiness simply because we have excluded God and His Words in the Equation of our lives. Our sorrow is of our own making from the beginning of time.
But surely PEACE and HAPPINESS will be back to this world when JESUS THE MESSIAH comes back to rule with an iron fist in justice and love. He is now just around the corner and soon will be at the door to our world.
The world is appalled by 1100 deaths in Gaza. How do you think we will react when two thirds of mankind perish in the conflagration that is coming soon before Jesus Christ comes back to save and to rule. Believe, follow and humble ourselves to save our souls. It is the only way.
The problem here that exists is a mind state, in which we have to change. The myth that there is a chosen people of God has been permeated throughout the centuries, and the masses of people have been taught to believe this shit which therefore creates inequality in this world. If we learn to respect people equally regardless of who they are, then we will know true peace. No offense to the Jews and I am not praising him, but viewing from an objective manner, I see why Adolf Hitler developed a hatred for the Jews, because he began to see how the myth of the “chosen people” affected the reality of his countrymen. So in his mind, why not create a myth that the Germans are a supreme master race in order to mobilize them, because the Jews did it? When is this non-sense is going to stop? Haiti is viewed as a backward, savage, un-Christian country because the majority of its citizenry practice Vodun, so since they do that, they shouldn’t be afforded any type of privileges and investment…The Jews are a Type 1 culture (who ever said that)..so we are saying they are better than everyone? How about we learn to see how every culture, nationality, race, ethnic group, etc can bountifully contribute to humanity!
Ann, that’s a question I wonder too. Shouldn’t the surrounding countries of Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon be helping the people of Palestine? Hasn’t that always been a central motif of the Koran, to help the poor? Couldn’t any or all of those countries provided money, supplies, hospitals, schools, clean water, houses and sewers? It’s been more than 50 years since the Partition. How could someone in Jordan, as an example, let his poor brethren live behind barbed-wire for that long? Were the displaced Palestinians welcomed as immigrants? Did any of those countries at any time offer those poor people any kind of helping hand? How could they watch that kind of suffering without wanting to give them the basics of life, like clean water, food, and shelter?
Why our goverment gives the people that hat us and want to kill us all the tax breaks and will do nothing to help our one people. what is wrong with the goverments of the peace loveing people
This is a riot. Everybody screaming at each other (by text). Personal attacks, history revisions, Bible quotes, bigotry, racism–you name it. If we as Americans can’t come together and agree on some basic principals, who can? These comment pages do nothing but perpetuate the culture of moronic rhetoric (more like moronic diarrhea of the mouth). Nobody’s opinion is going to change, in fact, opinions will be more resolved. “I saw my neighbor across the street. I was asked, ‘who is that man?’. I said, “brothers and sisters have I none, but that man’s father is my father’s son.’” Who was that man?
This is the best article describing the mindless hate of the Hamas led Palastinians I have ever read. It amazes me that this stupidity continues. I guess it will until the Palestinians wake up, or the so called Moderate Islamic governments put down this hate once and for all…. Or the neighbor might not stop next time. Someone needs to man enough to explain that Hamas or Hezbollah under an Iranian ( The other neighbor) nuclear umbrella.. will cease to exist. That is what a nuclear armed Iran will lead to.. A nuclear war!It would be inevitable. Period!
Greg, BTW, according to CNN, (feel free to look it up) ‘militants’ were the first to violate the ceasefire on JUNE 24, 2008. And to ‘the rest of the world…’ the history books show that Muhammed was certainly a military as well as religious leader, and did indeed convert people to Islam at the point of the sword. It is also theorized that his mandate that muslims perform the Haj to mecca every year if possible or at least once in their life, was at least partly motivated by economics. If the pope mandated that every catholic must visit the Vatican, it would be pretty good for the Italian tourism business, wouldn’t it!
Nilebaby, so israelis displaced arabs frm their land and some other arabs are suppose to just take them in. Jews must the only people who are allowed to do that
common sense, if the place where u lived in (which is not even a state because your fiendly neighbour wouldnt allow you to have one) is blockaded, wouldnt you try to do something about it?
Islam is not as much a religion as it is a political agenda. If a male Muslim disagrees with the religious aspects he is a heretic and deserves to be killed, if the male Muslim disagrees with the State he is a traitor and is to be killed.(catch 62?) Forget the women they are things to be kept stupid and pregnant. Both Islam and the Jewish are religiously based in the old testament. The big difference between the two is one Israeli Jews moved with the times and two do not teach their babies to kill from birth. The Muslims do have weapons of mass destruction they are called Ayatollahs, Imam’s and Mullah’s!
Another view is clearly politically motivated and cares nothing for a real solution. Besides the fact that Jordan and Syria would ruthlessly murder any and all of the fake Palestinians if they had a Hamas problem, that the surviving Jews of racist, Anti-Semite Europe realized that they alone have to be their own protection, that the Arabs of ancient times murdered/ran out the Jewish tribes out of their homeland, and, . . that the UN did this mandating AFTER the organized (and un-organized) mass murder of the Jews: there is the fact that Hamas is a murderous organization killing more fake Palestinians by far than the Israelis have. All other refugees on earth become part of other lands, but not these people, because of the hardness of Arab hearts. I think the Israelis should stay in Gaza for months and kill all Hamas. Then the “Gazans” would have a thin, thin chance of becoming emancipated from their culture of endless and wasteful hate.
BTW, the way I see it, there will never be a two-state solution to this problem, for the simple reason that it’s too convenient for the muslims to keep Gaza and the West Bank as unorganized territories.
Contemporary international relations work according to the Westphalian model of the nation-state. If the Gazans, et.al., ever established a formal nation, for one thing they’d have to recognize Israel’s sovereignty, as they would any other country’s sovereignty. Further, if the Palestinian government tacitly allowed the radicals to keep lobbing rockets into Israel, Israel would be entirely within its rights under the Westphalian model to declare war and occupy whatever land it took. With the establishment of a nation-state comes the responsibility to play by the rules governing international relations.
As long as the Palestinians are “unincorporated,” the Israelis have no formal government to hold responsible; the Westphalian model doesn’t hold. And that’s why it’s to the radicals’ benefit to not establish a formal Palestinian state. Too useful a tool as it is for harassing Israel.
Holy land tours in october 2015
For all those alive and well by then, we have economic tours to see the crystalized remains of the shiite persian empire, the hole were Mecca was located, the radioactive holy sites of Jerusalem,and many more!
We will provide you with masks and radiation proof suits, so you can experience the tour in a non-toxic way. Reservations can be made, but travelers can expect the tour to start sooner than the date given, because the actors in the region are eager to get the show on as soon as possible. We must thank Hatred inc, for assisting the regional factions in the creation of this new radioactive park. We have not mentioned the possibility that the big leaguers of the world may join in the play for the grand finale,the fireworks display will be visible from Jupiter and vicinity, if that is the case, there are no refunds, since the whole planet may be gone, martian tourists are welcomed,just don’t get out of your saucer without a radiation suit…
do you know about the 72 virgins–well if not pay attention–if a jihad soldier dies in holy war he is promised to go straight away to paradise and part of his reward is to have 72 virgins as a reward–now consider that this is promised to men jihadist mytyrs women for some reason are totally omitted to having any reward in paradise or any other blessings–the whole concept of islam is pro -male the only joy for the women is what they recieve from their male masters while here on earth–look at all the rights they have under is lamic law 1st there is the total fullfillmentthey feel from obeying without question every command given them by their loving masters–if they should falter no problem the masters are quick to show them the error of their ways the same way as they do to their enemies–they are subjectedto some lavish means of torture debasement and public disgrace even dis figurement or worse even some slow means of death–how lucky they are–they know only men get to paradise so they thank their masters every day for the love that is bestowed on them NO I MEAN NO OTHER RELIGION IN HUMAN HISTORY TREATS WOMEN WIYH SUCH DISGUSTING CONTEMPT AND MAKES THEM LIKE IT–go figure i cant have you ever read in the bible where man is offered any WORLDLY rewards by YAWEH OR YASHUA ? i did not think so dont believe me read the book–the concept is entirely based on rewards of a earthly nature to the sole benifit of the male gender HOW DO THEY GET THE WOMEN TO GO ALONG
Perhaps the most concise definition of evil ever written is by the late Dr. M. Scott Peck: “To destroy life or liveliness in defense of a self-image of perfection.” In other words, those who are evil narcissistically refuse to accept that they are flawed and need improvement (i.e., are only human). It is this self-deception which characterizes what Peck calls “people of the lie”. So when the evil invitably encounter others who, by comparison, seem in some way superior, they feel the excruciating shame of inferiority, which they then try to eliminate by eliminating them. And in the Israel-Palestine conflict, there isn’t much doubt about who envies whom. As long as Muslims lash out (under various meretricious pretexts) at the Jews whose advantages they envy, rather than work in a civilized manner towards their own culture’s progress, that isn’t likely to change.
Curious how many readers didn’t recognize the essay as a parable.
nilebaby….they dont help because the current rulers of many arab nations are corrupt and are after thier own interests. they do not represent thier people, and will never stand up to protect them until they are overthrown from power. jordan, egypt, and saudi arabia to name a few are puppet governtment more loyal to money, power, and even america than they are for thier own people. which is why groups like hamas get the support they do. the arab people see thier governments watch the injustice happening in palestine. they want them to stand up for thier own people using thier national resources (whether economic, political, or militarily) yet thier voices are not heard cuz these dictators dont give a sh*t. the people have no say in what the govt does. so when a group like hamas and hizbollah stand up to resist the israeli occupation, they get the respect of the arab people because they are the only ones that arent just standing around watching everything go to shit. that is not to say that people agree with some of the charter and tactics that hamas or hizbollah use (such as suicide bombings and killing innocent ppl or whatever, which is against our religion anyway) but just the fact that they are seen as somewhat standing up for them earns them the respect they get. something is better than nothing, even if its not the best way. in a way, these groups are kind of seen as david standing up to goliath while thier govts idley stand by. dont get me wrong, arabs dont want hamas and hizbollah and these extremists to run thier countries with thier retarded extreme ideoligees. they just like them now while thier standing up for them. so unless arab govts stop just watching, and listen to thier people, start representing them and actually stand up to the isreali injustice against the palestinians, these groups will continue to gain power. its really complex and hard to explain all of this by just typing it down but thats just the basics. so to summarize, the arab people are trying to help the palestinians and feel for them and wish they can do more, but thier govts dont help them out
Reds, yes I would. I would make sure that the idiots down the street who were lanching rockets from my kid’s school stopped doing that. Look, this same problem happened in Ireland…it took the people in each neighborhood to say, “Hey IRA terrorist, if you build a bomb in my town, I’ll turn you in” and the provos did the same thing…this is now happening in Iraq…Hamas deliberatly targets civilians in it’s strikes. How on earth can you EVER justify that?
Reds, I know the Germans took in Bosnians and Serbs as temporary and then later permanent immigrants. I know the French took in Algerians and Turks. The British took in Indians, Pakistanis, Kenyans, South Africans and many more. Not taking refugees in is the exception. So what is the humane rational behind the lack of aid from Palestine’s neighbors?
nilebaby….you said, “So what is the humane rational behind the lack of aid from Palestine’s neighbors?”
the simple answer is because palestine is blockaded and israel chooses what and who goes in and out of palestine, from who the stuff comes from, to who the stuff goes too, when it goes in, and even if it ever goes in. there are harsh economic sanctions on palestine so now one can help them. thats why the palestinians are pissed and thats why the arabs cant help. plus arab govts are pretty currupt and dont give a sh*t
This proves there can be no peace in the middle east until the palestinians want it. They will never have peace, because peace is not in thier hearts. The analogy of the “evil thief” is ridiculous. The palestinians kill innocent jews who were born in isreal with no say in the matter, and yet they claim by doing so, they show the true evil nature of the evil thief? YOURE KILLING PEOPLE you idiots. not the offspring of pigs and monkeys. Palestinians will never know peace until they let go of thier hatred. In the words of Golda maier (sp?) “Isreal will know peace when the palestinians love thier children more than they hate the jews”. Words of wisdom indeed. And the writer of this article is so full of hate, thier can be no room for God in his heart. His words make me wonder if satan himself owns this mans heart. He is certainly not representing any God I would choose to worship. Eventually, there will be peace in palestine, but I wonder if on that day, will it be because there are no more palestinians? Palestinians, wise up, forgive your enemy. the day of judgement approaches all of us, and do you reall think God will be amused by your calling those created in His image the offspring of pigs and monkeys? You say islam is a religeon of peace. PROVE IT.
good grief what a lunatic… islam is a cancer.
whack job nutballs… eliminate all of them…
Hey Simple…I think Nile was speaking more of the Palestinian refugees in southern Lebenon and the ones who were barb-wired into their camp in Jorden…
Hi, Angel — I think you have totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. In all likelihood this is my fault. I too, totally agree with this article.
My point was that it might be more useful and productive if those that are so ready to pass judgement on Israel, looked to the problems in their own countries, in terms of aboriginal land rights, rather than involving themselves superficially (ie. coffee talk, party talk, dinner table talk, writing to blogs, union talk, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum)in the problems of the Middle East. It’s so easy to criticize other countries. It requires little or no effort to wag one’s tongue or dash off a comment on a blog. It requires far more effort to actually get out and work for what one believes. For example, First Nations land claims.
I have a great deal of admiration and respect for the independence of First Nations people and their desire to build their own destinies and live their own lives.
The dignified and non-violent way in which they have persisted in their demands for a return of their lands and compensation, should be held up as an example to other nations.
Of course, I know that all First Nations people are not poor – anymore than all Jews are rich!! In fact, I live near a very wealthy reserve with beautiful homes, two schools, a longhouse, etc., etc.
I have always thought that, just as we are very different, we are very similiar in many ways – aboriginal people and Jews. In fact, an old friend and a former schoolmate collaborated on a book that you might find interesting. “In honour of our grandmothers” honours First Nations and Jewish women and looks at the historical similiarities between these two nations through painting and poetry by First Nations and Jewish artists and poets. It’s a Canadian publication, (and you must be Canadian since you see an aboriginal PM in our future!)so hopefully it is available through your library.
I think this is a wonderful time to be a young aboriginal person – and I totally agree with you that aboriginal people have a very bright future ahead – here’s to an aboriginal Prime Minister – wouldn’t that shake things up!
Simple Truth, sure there is a blockade now, but what about ten years ago or fifty years ago? Israel was not stopping them then. I do understand that their governments are corrupt, as you pointed out in your later post, but when are the good people, the common people you’re talking about, going to do something about that corruption? And even if the government is corrupt, why haven’t philanthropic organizations, private organizations from those countries, reached out to help?
Until people in the free world understand that as long as we put up with their hatred and sick mind sets, there will never be peace. I only see a great war coming for us to fight. They think so much of Alah, I’d personaly like to see all of them go there, RIGHT NOW……..My friend feels so sorry for the little children. I tell her, well, give those little darlings 8 to 10 years and with the teachings of their parents, they’ll slit your throat and laugh while you choke on your own blood. And they call us Infidels……………………..
Clearly, the Israelis are nothing more than terrorists and baby killers who lack the morals to even acknowledge this deviant behavior.
Yeah, I read this and maybe some do in fact feel this way. Justified, absolutely! What it fails to show is how not only were these people forcibly removed from their homes to make room for Jews, instead of continuing to live together as they were, IN PEACE, but are currently subjected to deplorable conditions in ghettos they have been forced to live in. They are continually oppressed and to top it off, the little land they were given is currently occupied by the oppressor (settlers) and still expanding to this day. The Israelis were not only given most of the country but live/d within Gaza and West Bank, taking the best areas for themselves, removing people again, locking these people out, abusing them hence creating even more misery. I didn’t read that in this text. Oops, left that out, convenient. Hard to live in peace when salt is poured into open wounds that will never heal. Luckily, human rights groups have supplied them with video cameras to document the continuing violence from within the land they have been forced to live in. See for yourselves, just you tube “jewish settlers” and a plethora of video is available. Shame on all you one siders who refuse to look at the entire picture as I have. This is the reason for 9/11, can you imagine so much hatred and misery of a people that they feel that they have no other means but to kill themselves and others to open our eyes. I don’t know about the rest of you, but if I were put in the same position, who knows. I live for freedom, peace and prosperity. Take this from me and my children, unjustifiably, and continue to beat me down and watch the animal come out in me and any other civilized, god fearing, educated man. It fuels my fire knowing my hard earned money helps fuel this fire. Open your eyes people. By the way, I HAVE ALWAYS defended the jews in the past, especially because of the holocaust but now feel the the victim has become the perp and for what? Land they could have shared, as they did for centuries, in peace with the Arabs.
In reference to the Jesus and his apostles: They were confronting one of the most militant of militant states in known history. For example, Saint Valentine was executed for marrying people since there was such a demand for soldiers.
To see all this immoral violence and dare to confront it was one of the most brave things early believers had to face. Now to say that Jesus didn’t believe in self defense is… well evil. The problem is defining the line between preemption and provocation.
It’s hard to get a peaceful society without the basic means to be healthy, yet keeping it. This is one of the symptoms of humanity. When you solve this, then call me because I’ll be shocked.
nile baby… you said “why haven’t philanthropic organizations, private organizations from those countries, reached out to help?”
they have, but they can only do so much. with out the resources of the arab countries and the world in general, you cant expect a few charities and prvate individuals alone to support a whole people. billions of dollars in aid are needed to feed and rebuild and support the palestinians. without governments around the world doing anything, money from charities is like a drop in a bucket. for example you cant expect philanthropic organizations and private organizations alone to solve the aids epedemic, or poverty, or the disaster in africa without the help of govts. they obviously wouldnt be abe to do much
Gina, the Palestinians were forced to live in ghettos because their Arab neighbors would not take them in or give them humanitarian aid or help them rebuild. I asked Red and The Simple Truth and now you, what is the humane rational for this blindness in the face of such suffering? Are the Arabs of the Middle East exempt from that human standard?
Israel needs to give Palestinians equal rights and equal citizenship in order to have long lasting peace. You cant subjugate, disenfranchise, and oppress a people no matter who you are. And no matter what innocent people shouldnt die, especially in the name of justice.
Everyone should read that article! The Israelis have their hands full trying to cope with such brave men that throw stones at windows and then run away leaving their mother’s, wife’s, and children in the middle of the horror’s of war. I can’t understand why such brave women would want to call those cowards their father’s husbands, or brothers! I wouldn’t be surprised if those Palestinian women wish their men were more like those Israelis men, able to feed their familys, take care of their property, and made sure they are secured! It’s sad that those stone throwing cowards can strap a bomb to one of their own children but cannot stand up face to face and duke it out with their enemies. Maybe if the Palestinian corwards cry long enough someone with more courage will come to their aid. If I were them I wouldn’t hold my breath!
common sense…why are the “Palestinian refugees in southern Lebenon and the ones who were barb-wired into their camp in Jorden” there in the first place???
isnt it cuz they got kicked out of thier land in the first place by the jews??? the palestinians shouldnt even be in refugee camps in lebanon and jordan the first place. other than the humanitarian standpoint, why should lebanon and jordan be responsible for the chaos israel created? why should they foot the bill? at the end the day they are the problem israel created and only israel can solve. why shlould only the arabs feel compassion for them? shouldnt israels feel bad for creating this situation in the first place. the more and more a talk to you people and listen to your arguments, the more i realised how flawed and hypocritical all these zionist arguments are. your rationales always apply to others and not yourselves. i think its funny, and dam right pathetic
So Simple Truth, why should Lebanon and Jordan be exempt from the humanitarian standpoint?
Sorry, I sent my response too early.
So Simple Truth, why should Lebanon and Jordan be exempt from a humanitarian standpoint?
You want the world to care. You want everyone else to meet the humanitarian standpoint.
No one should be exempt, particularly countries, like Lebanon and Jordan, who use the Palestinian cause for their own uses.
Hey all,
Read the Bible. Maintain the Faith of a Mustard seed and be at Peace in God’s will…. Do what you can to help, and Leave the rest to God, trusting in Him always. Because what will be will be, regardless of our wills. HE only knows the way, and HIS is the perfect path…
they shouldnt. the people try to do what they can to help the palestinians, the govts dont. the people can only do so much by thier own. i told u this before, what part of that is hard to understand. if it was up to the people, palestinians wouldnt be in these refugee camps.
but to be even more specific, the arab govts have taken lots of refugees but they cant take in all of them. its very hard to do for several reasons but ill try to summarise them. basically they dont take these refugees in because they cant. its mostly politics as well feasibilty. just like every part of the world. no contry can just all of a sudden just take in 2 million refugees into thier countries and make them citizens. where are they gonna get the money to build them roads, homes, schools, hospitals, jail, police forces and so on and so on. who should pay for these things??? lebanon and jordan???? or is it israel who displaced these people from their homes and sent them to refugee camps???? do you know how much that sh*t costs?? why wont israel let these refugees come back to thier land??? do you even know what a refugee is??? look up the defination. you obviously dont understand politics. ur just spitting out some propaganda with no substance behind it.
now let me ask you, why is israel exempt from the humanitarian standpoint??
Simple truth…You’ve picked and chosen what you respond to all day…your arguments are specious and you now resort to name calling…
Bottom line…yes, the Palestinians got a bad deal. So did the Irish, the aboriginal people Lilith keeps talking about, blacks in america, etc etc etc. What to do about it?
1) Israel will never give up their country.
2) the Palestinians and Arabs, (and Iranians) will never defeat them militarily
3) There will always be some nutjob out there willing to throw a rock, bullet, or bomb at Israel
Like Hope said, Israel needs to treat the palestinians and others in their country as equal citizens.
Someone needs to tell the people of Gaza to tell the missile squads to knock it off.
Swizzle is an uninformed, bigoted idiot.
Nilebaby, do you know that there is a blockade imposed by israel on the gaza strip. Of course you didnt. You’ve only been fed with pro israel media all your life. Reporters couldnt even enter gaza during the recent bombings. Only limited numbers of humanitarian trucks were allowed to enter gaza.
nilebaby…in case your to lazy to educate yourself, heres the definition:
REFUGEE – Any person who is outside any country of such person’s nationality or, in the case of a person having no nationality, is outside any country in which such person last habitually resided, and who is unable or unwilling to return to, and is unable or unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of, that country because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular
so let me ask you again, why is israel exempt from the humanitarian standpoint?? why arent you more outraged at israel than you are at jordan and lebanon??? atleast jordan and lebanon give palestinians refuge in thier countrys. israel ADAMENTLY REFUSES to allow ANY palestinian refugees to return to thier homes in palestine that israel took.
common sense…so at the end of the day ur basically saying that the palestinians shouldnt complain about getting the sh*tty end of the deal and just deal with it. right? so to use the same rationale, then israels shouldnt complain when stones and rockets are sent there way. they created this situation and brought it onto themselves anyway right?
and yes i completely agree, the palestinians wouldnt be throwing stones and sending rockets in the first place IF they were treated equally. so the question is what are YOU gonna do?
—-”You’ve picked and chosen what you respond to all day…your arguments are specious and you now resort to name calling…”
its funny how you do the same things that you accuse me of.
you know my dad once told me, ‘never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to thier level, then beat you with experience.’ lol its funny how true that is. i keep showing you how flawed your rationale is each time, and then you come up with a new flawed argument. this is why the peace process has never gone anywhere. i think the biggest problem is zionists actually really truelly belive thier own BS even though the truth is right in front of your eyes.
Hey Simple…My last response to you, but I have no idea where you get your information…I read extensively, but in addition, my girlfriend, her mother, aunts, uncles, and cousins are all christen arab palestinians. Some were born in Israel, some still live in Gaza, but almost all of the christens have been kicked out of Gaza by militants, (not Hamas in this case apparently). They still own and rent out land in Israel. As you pointed out earlier today, 1.6 million palestinians live within the borders of Israel, (not counting Gaza and the West bank). While they are admittedly treated unfairly, (and I advocate changing that injustice), they are content enough to not bomb innocents in their neighborhoods. BTW, the two largest donors to the Palestinians are Israel and the US…
Do your own research and try to read both sides before you start insulting people…
common sense:
common sense my a**, more like CON-MEN Sense
No worries dude. Obama’s gonna go talk to your neighbor. He’ll stop your neighbor from causing you harm and then you’ll be able to bask in the rightful glory of all your accomplishments.
One last time…and my father told me “never wrestle with a pig, you both get covered in sh*t and the pig enjoys it”
I’m not a zionist. I have never said the Palestinians shouldn’t protest and seek to improve their condition and treatment from both the Israelies and the world. I simply think they are being counterproductive in achieving their goals when they target civilians with their tactics. I’m looking toward the future, not wasting time wishing things hadn’t happened, but dealing with the reality of the situation.
As far as you “showing me how flawed my argument is,” I haven’t seen any evidence of that. All I’ve heard you say is “the palestinians got a sh***y deal, Israel is to blame, and they should let the palestinians take over the place they now live and call it palestine”
You’re not being realilistic
or CON-MEN NON-sense actually….
Israeli supporters would just conveniently leave out the part where arabs were displaced from their homes, the economic blockade, the fact that Israel continues to assert control over activities in gaza that rely on transit through Israel, as well as air space over and sea access to ports in Gaza. Israel approves all immigration to and emigration from Gaza via Israel, as well as entry by foreigners via Israel, imports and exports via Israel, and collection and reimbursement of value-added tax in Israel.
The Simple Truth is you resort to insults because you fail to make your point with logic or reason. Nor do I understand your father’s saying. I don’t think I’ve brought you down to any level and I certainly haven’t called you any names. And ‘they beat you with experience’ is this literal? Or did he mean experience as a form of learning and education and judgment? And if he did, isn’t experience a good way to learn?
I don’t think Israel is exempt or should be exempt from humanitarian standards.
I also think you should double check to see exactly how many refugees Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon have accepted in the last 50 years.
Putting the Palestinian refugee crisis in perspective
Let’s make a historical parallel.
In 1959 Castro and his revolutionaries overtook Cuba. Thousands of Cubans fled. Why did they flee? Some were probably expelled, but many fled out of fear of the new regime. Most came to America.
What was the U.S. responsibility to these Cubans? Did they deserve to be a part in this nation? The U.S. did decide to take them in. But what if the story had been different? What if the U.S. had decided to keep these Cubans in confinement camps, much like the Japanese Americans in WWII? After all, they didn’t belong here, they belonged in Cuba. They were Castro’s problem. What if the U.S. were to then hand over these confinement camps the U.N.? I mean, why should the U.S. foot the bill for housing, feeding, and clothing these individuals who were Cuba’s -not America’s- problem? What if they were to limit the Cubans’ mobility, not allow them to move out of the confinement camps and into U.S. society, not allow them to practice most lucrative employments outside the camps, not give them or their children born on American soil citizenship? (What would the ACLU or Amnesty International have to say about this?) What if this were to go on for nearly sixty years, and the number of people living in the misery of these camps rose to 3 million? Why should the U.S. care, it’s Cuba’s problem. What if during all these years of living in squalor, America inculcated into these Cubans that the problem is not America, it’s Cuba and the revolutionaries that live there, to the point that the Cubans in the camps truly believe this? What if the Cuban refugees learn to hate Castro and all his revolutionaries to the point they just want to kill them? What if America were then to turn around and tell Cuba that the only way this problem could be resolved is that Castro and his revolutionaries accept the return of these 3 million people to live among them in Cuba? Would any nation in the world accept these terms for peace? To top it off, let’s also assume that when Castro took power, America expelled 800,000 Communists, with little more than the shirt on their backs, shipped them to Cuba with no intention of ever paying reparations for all the lands and valuables these individuals left in America. Would that be fair? Would that be humane?
This is not what happened in the U.S. Despite the installation of a hostile government 90 miles from its shores, America never expelled its citizens on the basis of belief, simply as revenge. And America did in fact take in the displaced Cuban refugees. It allowed them to participate in society, eventually granting them and their children citizenship. It allowed them to become productive, dignified individuals in this new, welcoming land, despite the fact that they did not share the same culture, religion, or language as the Americans.
But this is what happened in the Middle East. After the creation of the State of Israel, and the ensuing war brought upon by Arab armies, about 600,000 Arabs fled Israel. Some were expelled, but most fled, fearing becoming a minority under a Jewish government, or simply escaping the war. How were they welcomed in other Arab nations? Only Jordan granted them citizenship. They were mostly restricted to living and working in and around the refugee camps established for them, and run by the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which was mostly not funded by Arab nations, but by the U.S. This has gone on for nearly 60 years, the number of refugees blossoming to 3 million, with no end in sight. Why?
“The Arab States do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don’t give a damn whether the refugees live or die.” -Ralph Garroway, former UNWRA director, 1958.
At the same time as a Palestinian refugee crisis was created, so was a Jewish refugee crisis. During the 1950s an estimated 800,000 Jews who had been living in various Arab nations, from Morocco to Iraq -some in communities that had existed for centuries- were forcibly expelled. Most went to Israel, where they struggled to be absorbed into society. No mention is ever made of their repatriation or payment reparation.
So why did America accept all those Cubans, and why didn’t it expel the Communists among us? Because that would have been brutal, inhumane, and immoral. It would have meant mean placing political motives above the well-being of millions of innocent refugees year after year, decade after decade.
Those who truly lament the plight of the Palestinian refugees should question not only how it began, but why it has become perpetuated. They should question why the suffering of other refugees has ceased, while theirs is prolonged by the very people who claim to protect them, who claim to be their “brothers.”
D…oh, you funny! With that comment being the total of your contribution to this discussion, I’m just going to bed proud to know the American educational system is still producing rocket scientists…
If Israel compensated the Palestinian refugees for their losses, would this satisfy them? No.
If the Jews permitted a Palestinian state to be established next to theirs, would this satisfy the Palestinians? No.
Why? Because though loss of land, lack of self-determination, and desire for a homeland are all valid Palestinian grievances, they belie the real goal: governance by Palestinians over ALL of Palestine. The issue is not land ownership, it’s land SOVEREIGNTY. Hamas will never stop fighting Israel, as Israeli sovereignty over part of Palestine is incompatible with this goal. Even moderate Arabs who espouse the “one-state” solution are essentially working for the same goal of complete Palestinian governance. The difference is that Hamas would kill the Jews, while the moderates would tolerate them as a minority (though most must realize that religious minorities have historically not fared well in Muslim-dominated societies).
The irony is that Palestinians vehemently claim sovereignty over a piece of land which they have never governed. The Ottomans ruled over the land for centuries, until they transferred sovereignty to the British. Why did the British transfer partial sovereignty to the Jews? As far back as 1917, Lord Balfour declared the British intent of helping the Jews establish a homeland, long before the Holocaust. Jewish immigration was already in full swing in the 1920′s and 30′s, helped by European anti-Semitism, including the 1935 Nuremberg Laws that that stripped over 300,000 Jews of their German citizenship. It soon became obvious (even before WWII) that the growing Jewish and Arab populations in Palestine would be ungovernable under one state, so the British decided to partition their Palestine Mandate to create a homeland for each. The Arabs rejected the offer of partial sovereignty, as they still do to this day. The Jews accepted it, as their agenda has always been simply to have a homeland, as do the Armenians, the Turks, and many other ethnic groups. It is curious to see how Muslims vociferously rejected the British partitioning of Palestine, but none opposed the British partitioning of India -to create Muslim Pakistan.
So while the West may rightly pressure Israel to compensate the Palestinian refugees and to accept a Palestinian state, it is questionable whether this will stop the conflict. The main issue has never been the refugees, or the creation of A Palestinian state. The issue is the existence of Israel, and how it blocks the creation of THE Palestinian State.
If Israel compensated the Palestinian refugees for their losses, would this satisfy them? No.
If the Jews permitted a Palestinian state to be established next to theirs, would this satisfy the Palestinians? No.
Why? Because though loss of land, lack of self-determination, and desire for a homeland are all valid Palestinian grievances, they belie the real goal: governance by Palestinians over ALL of Palestine. The issue is not land ownership, it’s land SOVEREIGNTY. Hamas will never stop fighting Israel, as Israeli sovereignty over part of Palestine is incompatible with this goal. Even moderate Arabs who espouse the “one-state” solution are essentially working for the same goal of complete Palestinian governance. The difference is that Hamas would kill the Jews, while the moderates would tolerate them as a minority (though most must realize that religious minorities have historically not fared well in Muslim-dominated societies).
The irony is that Palestinians vehemently claim sovereignty over a piece of land which they have never governed. The Ottomans ruled over the land for centuries, until they transferred sovereignty to the British. Why did the British transfer partial sovereignty to the Jews? As far back as 1917, Lord Balfour declared the British intent of helping the Jews establish a homeland, long before the Holocaust. Jewish immigration was already in full swing in the 1920′s and 30′s, helped by European anti-Semitism, including the 1935 Nuremberg Laws that that stripped over 300,000 Jews of their German citizenship. It soon became obvious (even before WWII) that the growing Jewish and Arab populations in Palestine would be ungovernable under one state, so the British decided to partition their Palestine Mandate to create a homeland for each. The Arabs rejected the offer of partial sovereignty, as they still do to this day. The Jews accepted it, as their agenda has always been simply to have a homeland, as do the Armenians, the Turks, and many other ethnic groups. It is curious to see how Muslims vociferously rejected the British partitioning of Palestine, but none opposed the British partitioning of India -to create Muslim Pakistan.
So while the West may rightly pressure Israel to compensate the Palestinian refugees and to accept a Palestinian state, it is questionable whether this will stop the conflict. The main issue has never been the refugees, or the creation of A Palestinian state. The issue is the existence of Israel, and how it blocks the creation of THE Palestinian State.
Eloquent, reasonable, factual and a pleasure to read. Thanks, Chileno. You have certainly elevated the discussion.
The quarrel is over an area that has been conquered and reconquered so many times that no single group can justify ownership through prior occupation. Palestine has never existed as a sovereign nation. The area, once known as the Levant and comprised of several small kingdoms was renamed Palaestina by the Byzantines. From ancient history to present it has been ruled, among others, by Jews, Babylonians, Assyrians, Arab Caliphs, Persians,Greeks, Romans, Turks, and the English. During the period when Turkish control was ending and English control was beginning, two movements began that led to the present conflict. The Arab population in the Palestine region began to desire a Nation of their own, dominated by the Arab culture. In Europe, Jewish leaders began a movement to leave Europe and return to the region of Palestine to establish a homeland as a solution to the pressures the European Jews were experiencing; this movement was termed “Zionism.”
In the beginning both groups coexisted peacefully. The Arab population began to fear that they would be outnumbered by the Jews and found it hard to compete with the European Jewish immigrants.
Arab militant groups were formed; raids and attacks on Jewish settlement occurred during the 1920′s and 1930′s, along with several Arab uprisings. The U.N proposed a plan in the 1940′s to “partition” the region into an Arab state and a Jewish state. Because the proposal was rejected by the Arab population while approved by the Jewish population it was never enacted. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, which established the State of Israel, many Palestinian Arabs fled the region claimed by the Israelis. although many remained.
The Gaza strip where many descendants of the Arabs who fled the newly formed State of Israel live lies within the original Palestinian region.
Given the history of the Arab-Jewish conflict, it would seem that the occupants of the Gaza strip are beating a dead horse. It was the Arabs, not the Jews who rejected the opportunity for independent statehood, the Zionist movement has been accomplished, and warfare has served no Arab purpose.
It would be far more productive to focus on building a future for their children and descendants. The energy wasted on fomenting hate and retaliation against a perceived enemy saps the will and motivation that could be put to better use building a community that will be ready to lead the population in the Gaza strip to a peaceful and prosperous future.
In terms of lost property by the Arab population after 1948, it would be fair of Israel to provide equitable financial compensation to descendants when presented with proper documentation of proof of ownership.
@Reds, you keep mentioning the Israeli economic sanctions against the Hamas rulers in Gaza but you seem to be missing the context.
In 2006 Hamas ran in the elections in the Pal territories and won a majority. They became an important part of the Pal govt. Israel chose not to engage with Hamas at that time but did continue to engage with Mr Abbas.
In 2007 Hamas executed a violent putch and took control of Gaza. They killed about 350 members of Fatah, throwing them off buildings, shooting them in the legs and doing the things that terrorists do (they’ve been busy killing Fatah members since Israel withdrew couple days ago also). At that time the Quartet offered Hamas a deal. Hamas had to accept three demands of the intl community and the intl community would recognize Hamas and engage it. The demands were: recognize Israel, renounce violence, and accept previous signed agreements. Hamas refused. Can you imagine that? The Quartet consists of the UN, USA, EU, and Russia. Israel isn’t a member. This organization offers to give Hamas international legitimacy and Hamas refuses. It’s flabbergasting really.
After that Israel chose to impose economic sanctions on Gaza. They allow humanitarian goods to pass to Gaza but the free flow of goods that passes to the West Bank isn’t allowed. Did you know that Hamas has attacked the crossings into Gaza from Israel on numerous occasions? Imagine that! Makes no sense.
On top of that Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel from Gaza since 2001 and after Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 the rocket fire increased.
What can be the possible explanations for these frankly counter-intuitive actions by Hamas? Hamas doesn’t want to negotiate with Israel for anything. They want to destroy Israel. Failing that they want to force Israel to make concessions. Hamas is paid by Iran to fire the rockets at Israel. IJ even more-so is paid a fee for each rocket fired into Israel. They get more money for shooting attacks and kidnap attempts. They’re sub-contractors.
There is no possibility for a negotiated settlement as long as Hamas controls Gaza. There is no possibility that Fatah can take back Gaza by itself.
Economic sanctions are a legitimate tool to combat terrorists.
124. DonJoe:
What can I tell you – you convinced me with your informative and relevant answer.
If you have something to say to discuss – please say it.
If you don’t – well …
To 230. Chileno:
What an excellent comment !
I’ve been saying the same thing for years.
About 600,000-700,000 Arabs fled the new state of Israel in 1948 with promises of the advanced Arab armies to give them their homes back AND the homes of the Jews. My own grandfather was in touch with some of the Arab leaders in Haifa (in northern Israel) and he begged them not to leave. They fled promising to return with “their armies”. Those who remained in Israel now live 10 times better than those who fled.
At the same time about 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries, lost their homes and money. They have been living there for over 1000 years, in nowadays Iraq for 2500 years ! They chose to do something with their lives for their children, and the second and third generation now live modern and western lives.
All of the above brings me to quote Golda Meir, the PM of Israel in the early 1970s. She once said :
“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”
Love for their children brought the Jews thrown from Arab countries to build their lives. Hate led (and still leads) the Arab refugees to live in poverty and misery.
The ignorance and bigotry spouted by so many of the writers here is astonishing! So many opinions from so many people who seem to know nothing about the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (Reds–learn some factual history!)and who have never even visited that part of the world — they drown out the few sane and informed comments here (thanks, Chileno, for sounding an intelligent note and pointing out some facts). Many things might be said to correct this ignorance. Let me mention just a few of the more salient points. First: What should be most interesting about the Palestinian refugees and their miserable plight is that of all the millions and millions of displaced populations who emerged from the conflicts of the mid-20th century, they are the ONLY group for whom no permanent solution has been found in 60 years. Why is this so? Part of this crime may be laid at the doorstep of the UN: the UNHCR (United Nations High Commission on Refugees) was created to address the ongoing problem of refugee populations; but Palestinians are the sole group of refugees with a UN agency dedicated exclusively to their care: The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which operates independently of the Convention on refugees. Moreover, while the UNHCR actively seeks durable solutions to refugee problems, UNRWA has declined to entertain any permanent solution for the Palestinian refugees, insisting instead on a politically unfeasible “return” to pre-1967 Israel. The Arab nations are also responsible, having refused to take in these refugees and instead having cynically decided to leave them to rot as a wonderful public relations image to keep their fight against Israel alive — a good way to keep the “Arab Street” ablaze and thus unable to look too closely at the corruption and misrule they live under in most of their countries. Let’s leave aside the fact that many Palestinians voluntarily fled their homes in 1947-48, and accept that others were forcibly ejected by the new nation of Israel. And let’s remind the world that while those 500,000 Palestinians were changing domiciles, nearly 1,000,000 Jews were forcibly expelled — or fled — from Arab countries at the same time. However, of all the millions of displaced Jews, from both Europe and Arab lands, all who wished to settle in Israel were not only admitted, but welcomed and assimilated as quickly as possible. Today, those 500,000 Palestinians and their descendants number in the millions, a leaderless, miserable, poverty-stricken population that is a cauldron for terrorism and suicide bombers. Of course their Arab brethren who, along with the UN, are largely responsible for their plight, will not take them in now — how great a force for destabilization would they be in Egypt, Syria, Saudia Arabia, Jordan and so on?
On a personal note, and back to the article by de Winter which sparked the discussion of “whose house this is” and “whose land this is”. Let’s ask the questions, “Who is a refugee”? and “How long can one maintain legitimate refugee status”? I was born in France into a family of Ashkenazi Jews who had already fled or been expelled from their homes in Hungary, Germany and Poland before WWII. I was brought to the US as a small child. While most of my extended family perished in the Holocaust, those who survived made their way to the United States and Israel, or returned to France. I do not consider myself a “refugee,” my adult children can in no way be thought of as refugees, nor can I fathom that my grandchildren in California might consider themselves “refugees” from a house in Hungary or a farm in Poland or Germany which they have never seen and which is now probably a factory or a school — or someone else’s house! If we did think that way, or worse, allow others to encourage this fruitless thinking, we all might be the miserable occupants of slums like the Palestinians. I have also lived in the modern post-Soviet Czech Republic and witnessed a civilized system at work in offering reparations to those who had lost lands and property under the Communist regime. The lesson I learned from the Czechs, both those who fled to the West and those who didn’t? They understood that after fifty or sixty years, you can’t go home again: people were paid for homes that had become factories or schools or whatever. That’s a lesson yet to be learned by the Palestinians and those who have worked so hard to keep their anger ablaze for generations.
LIFE MOVES IN ONLY ONE DIRECTION: FORWARD. That is the main difference between the misery we see today in Gaza and the vibrant nation built by the Israelis — or, for that matter, by other countries whose populations have undergone forced or chosen removal: India comes to mind here! The conspiracy of the UNRWA and the Arab League to keep this population in “refugee camps” (please read “slums”) has sown the seeds of today’s disaster. And one last thought about the silence in the West Bank during this past month (those Palestinians are not interested, it would seem, in continuing this long agony), and the contrasting havoc and in Gaza: de Tocqueville said that in a democracy, people get the government they deserve. I do not wish death and disaster on anyone, most especially the Palestinians, who have been so cruelly used by so many outside parties. But they elected Hamas in a democratic process. If the last month has not convinced them of their error in choosing hatred and terror and a fruitless yearning for a lost and largely imagined past over liberty and prosperity, what will?
Since I was a kid (I am now 42 years old) I have always wondered why the world HATES Isreal (the Jews)! It is mind boggling…this very tiny country, a small group of people who want to live like every one of us do…..what’s about them that the world hates them? I remember several years ago, I think it was during the Clinton Administration, there was a meeting in South Africa where Isreal was condemned by world leaders as being “racist” and oppressive! The ONLY country which sided with Isreal was the United States of America (and rightfully so)! African leaders, too, (hypocritically) joined the condemnation….Africa, of all people…Africans who cut off human heads, hands, and feet without remorse and for no apparently logical reasons, had the guts to condemn Isreal! Insanity beyond understanding…isn’t it?
I am of the opinion that the reason why the world hates Isreal and Jews is because these people are “wonderfully mysterious” people who are very successful at whatever they do! Put them on a dissert, and they would turn dessert land into “gold”. The Palastinians and the Moslim/Islamic world cannot understand what makes these people so innovative, successful, and prosperous. Instead of seeking out ways to “learn” how to be prosperous and innovative like their cousins (the Jews), they instead “hate” them out of jealousy and malice!
Do you know who were the basis for Barack Obama’s successfull candidacy? The Jews! Check it out. Obama had the most successful money-making candidacy in U.S. History! Or, world history! Who headed his campaign? A Jew! True or False? That’s what I mean that these people are fantastically mysterious ! It is for the same reason that Hitler did not like them.
I think what Isreal should do is this: Blast the Palastinians away! The Palastinians are unjustifiable enemies to a group of people (the Jews)who have done nothing wrong to Palastinians. Isreal should blast Gaza away inch-by-inch to wipe away hidden places of terror and terrorist groups and their weapons! You do NOT make peace with your enemies…….your enemies will be your enemies no matter what. When you become kind to your UNPROVOKED enemy, he believes you are rewarding him/her for the wickedness done to you….your kindness reinforces their wickedness as “good” within/to their sick minds.
Now that the United States supports Isreal, the world turns against America; but we forget to know that when Hitler burned them/the Jews by the thousands, the United States refused, at that time, to allow the Jews to enter this land even as Refugees. Now the U.S.A., recognizing its error, has decided to correct it, and we don’t like it.
The other question is: With all the money in the Arab/Muslim world, why has not the Arabs supported its own people with the “oil wealth”? It’s a stupid undertaking when the Arab countries in the Middle East complain that Palastinians are “poor” BECAUSE of Isreal, yet they have money and won’t support their own Muslim brothers and sisters.
“The story also leaves out little details like it was the “neighbor” (Jews) who introduced terrorism to the region (check out the King David Hotel bombing).”
Check out the Hebron massacre (of Jews by Arabs incited by the Mufti) occurring many years before the King David bombing.
Basic fact: After the 1948 war, the West Bank and Gaza where the Palestinian state was supposed to be were still in Arab hands. Jordan took the West Bank, Egypt took Gaza, Israel had no control over either area. It is not Israel’s fault that no Palestinian state was established.
There is ONLY one solution to this problem: let the stronger of the two win! The world should leave the Palastinians and Isreal alone and let them fight their guts out! It’s like two siblings who always like getting into fights. Some times the parents break up the fight, but the kids would continue. Now, if the parent leaves them alone and let the stronger win, the weaker, who likes picking fights, would come to understand that he had no business starting the fight anyway. He might think it over seriously before engaging. The Hamas said it would make Gaza a burial place for Jews, but ends up with over 1000 dead bodies and their homes and properties demolished to rubble! Isn’t that insanity beyond understanding? If the Palastinians are NOT interested in lasting peace, Isreal should NOT engage in peace talks with them. You see, you should NOT make your perpetual enemies your friends, they will always be enemies. And if you are nice to them(your enemies) they would think that you are rewarding them for their behavior. So, the only solution is: wipe them out! Or, be wiped out!
In response to 209 Joe: #1 “Jesus did not believe in self defense is evil” #2 “confronting immoral violence”………..First of all Joe, I thank you for ur interest, I thank you for ur comments without any ugly and malicious words…I will once again repeat my understanding of the life of Christ. He never killed or even physically hurt anyone. He set the perfect example for the disciples to follow…As far as I can understand, Jesus knows exactly what self-defense is (remember when he rebuked Peter with the sword, He stated that at any moment he could have many angels from heaven to keep him from harm, if he wished). He decided not to use it (self-defense) and laid his life for our chance of salvation. He taught the disciples to b like him…(now, not for one minute am I saying that I could do the same)….. Now as “confronting immoral violence”, ur right, Jesus and his disciples were doing exactly that without the use of violence,though. Keep in mind, Martin Luther King’s movement was based on Christ’s teachings “non-violence”, very effectively…so I would ask the question: is “non-violence or non-self-defense” evil as U put it?…..I do believe that healthiness can bring peacefulness in society but greediness will always bring war…I will not comment on the Israel/Palestinian issue. I will study more…But I will defend my hero “Jesus” as the “Prince of Peace”…
if the stronger child enjoys mental torture and is just waiting for a reason to be sadistic, then u are not a good parent.
knowing the characteristics of ur children, one who likes to provoke, and the other stronger kid who is mentally sadistic and waiting for a chance to unleash, you would allow them to do that? rly bad parenting i would say. i say spank both of them naughty kids. spank them until they understand and spank them until their behinds are sore. in this case:
1. cut israels military funding
2. go after targeted terrorists
210. the simple truth:
“they have, but they can only do so much. with out the resources of the arab countries and the world in general, you cant expect a few charities and prvate individuals alone to support a whole people. billions of dollars in aid are needed to feed and rebuild and support the palestinians. …”
Well, Mr. (or Miss) simple truth, the truth is actually pretty simple.
Billions of USD were poured into the west bank and Gaza in the past decade. Money from the US, EU AND Israel was transferred to the Palestinians. The problem, that I am 100% you never heard of in the media you are exposed to, is that this money was STOLEN by their leaders. Yaser Arafat was the biggest of all. He took the money and transferred it to accounts on his name abroad. Suha Arafar now lives a very comfortable life. His successors followed in his footsteps, taking the money given to build a better life for the Palestinians and using it for the benefit of the few “elite”.
The best example would be that during the fights last week, Israel transferred trucks full of food to Gaza. Hamas officials took control over the trucks and instead of spreading the food to others sold it to the highest bidders. But I am 100% sure you never heard about that, now did you … ?
One of the problems is that many are not aware of this SIMPLE TRUTH.
I’ve seen several people who say that if not for the Jews, the area would be a wasteland. How do you know that? Do you have some sort of alternate universe time-machine? Fact is, you don’t know. All you know is, that with the help of the Americans, Isreal was given every opportunity to prosper and it did. Would they have prospered without the help of America? I don’t know, because I don’t have an alternate universe time-machine either.
And please leave God and the bible out of this crap. There is no more God sanctioned mandate for Jews to be in Isreal than for Bush to invade Iraq. Hell, in a couple of years, we’ll all worship Elvis as Jesus. He rose from the dead as well.
The actions of countries in the aftermath of war matter. Graciousness, on the part of winners and losers, is essential to secure the future.
In the aftermath of WWI, France proved a most ungracious winner, dismantling and taking entire manufacturing facilities from Germany. They had other punishments in mind as well, and they preserved the enmity of that war, and so contributed to the continuing anger that resulted in WWII. The United States, drawn unwillingly into a second World War, decided to try something different at the end of that conflict: it included occupation, yes, but also rebuilding both government and infrastructure in the areas within its control. The Marshall Plan is credited with the rise of Japan and Western Europe, including Germany, after the end of that conflict.
The US was also gracious in its provision for the areas of the Middle East that might have fallen under its control. The US has no taste for empire: the Middle East was not occupied, but given enormous amounts of money to go forward.
And the backward-looking Arab and Muslim governments, not content, decided that they had not had enough war, and have wasted most of that beautiful money.
The course of history in the Middle East after the end of World War II is an object lesson in the power of ungraciousness on the part of losing parties to harm their peoples’ future.
The present situation is controlled by a document put in place with the support of the surrounding Arab and Muslim countries, a document that is outdated, but is still being given full effect, to the embarrassment of the Arab and Muslim governments, because it has resulted in disproportionate harm to their own people.
That document is the Hamas Covenant which includes a provision that NO Arab or Muslim government has authority to conclude any kind of peace treaty with any non-Muslim entity, so long as it cedes control of any bit of land that had ever been held by a Muslim entity.
This document has fallen out of use by some governments in the Middle East, but it has been employed with devastating effect by others, and the worst of its effects have fallen on the Lebanese, Iraqis and Palestinians. This document is unIslamic, and it needs to be repudiated.
This document includes a provision to engage in an advertising campaign to convince Muslims that they have a personal, religious duty to kill any non-Muslim that travels to any land held at any time by a Muslim regime. The adherents to this Covenant found out a long time ago that mere bigotry is not enough to inspire Muslims to harm or murder their neighbors, and so the adherents have fallen to the use of false accusations of wrongdoing by their “enemies.”
The Hamas Covenant is a terrorist writing of the type that has been denied the effect of legal precedent by the Organization of Islamic Conferences, and it is inconsistent with the fundamental principles of Islam as recorded in the response by Muslim scholars to the Pope’s University at Regensberg’s address, And reiterated in the follow-up document A Common Word.
This document is a tool of oppression, much like the Iron Curtain. The Iron Curtain was torn down, and the people trapped behind it benefited. When the Hamas Covenant is torn up, the Palestinians will benefit in a similar manner.
Hey Chileno, Wickedwitch,
I went to be too early:( I’ve printed a screen capture of both your comments as I’ve never seen the issue put so elequently. Honestly, very little remains to be added to sum up the situation, but I would like to see a similar summation from the Palestinian point of view just to see if they can provide any rational to refute your thesis….
WELL DONE!
In reference to Mathew 10:34, I believe Jesus is referring to his second coming.
If you look at Revelation 19:21 it should make the verse clear.
Also you can compare Mathew 10:35-36 to Micha 7:6. You can go on to verse 7:7 which reveals Micha is waiting for the Lord.
Re: Comment 247, Huh?
Fact is America didn’t seriously wake up to Israel’s troubles until the ’70s. First it was Britain and France, and neither of them dumped foreign aid into Israel.
Fact is that Israel prospered in spite of having to spend 25% of it’s GDP on defense in the 50s. Without aid.
I don’t know about a time machine, but it’s obvious you don’t own a history book.
Innocents Abroad, by Mark Twain. Read it, and you’ll see the Land Israel described in exactly those terms: wretched muddy wasteland. Chapter 41 and on.
“Innocents Abroad, by Mark Twain. Read it, and you’ll see the Land Israel described in exactly those terms: wretched muddy wasteland. Chapter 41 and on.”
My 1969 Encyclopedia World Book describes Zionists as draining swamps to build up cities.
W
E
We have to kill our neighbour before he kills us……..
(of all the userid’s yours has to be the
commonsense@178: “Hey Greg, So basically, you’re saying that Hamas, from July 2008, until Nov. 4, 2008, fired not rockets into Israel?”
I’m not saying that the Israeli Foreign Ministry said that:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10123.shtml
ABC news reports here that Hamas agreed to a ceasefire on July 9 for extra food shipments (since Israel was blockading Gaza and half the population was below the poverty level and many were relying on humanitarian aid to eat)
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=5336909
The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (a centre-right Israeli intelligence think tank) in a December 31 report titled “Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report,” confirmed that the June 19 truce was only “sporadically violated, and then not by Hamas but instead by … “rogue terrorist organisations”. Instead, “the escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement” occurred after Israel killed six Hamas members on November 4 without provocation and then placed the entire Strip under an even more intensive siege the next day
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009110112723260741.html
I’m curious what your opinion of the real motivations of Israel. Why in your view did Israel violate the cease fire?
Wow. That’s just rich. I present you with facts confirmed by the ISraeli government, ABC news, and an Israeli think tank, and you want to cast doubt on its accuracy because you can’t come up with the kind of *motivation* that would explain it? Get real.
Facts are facts. The numbers are the numbers. Israeli apologists like you don’t want to acknowledge the numbers and the actual history because it conflicts with your propaganda version of history.
“(And I’m pretty sure that the ceasefire expired, and within a week Hamas sent 200 rockets into Israel).”
You may be “sure”, but you’re wrong.
“But seriously, you don’t think Israel wants to stop the rockets, you don’t think Bush went into Iraq because he was worried that an anti-American dictator possessed chemical and biological WMD”
Gee Wally. Funny how Scott Ritter, head of American inspection teams in the 1990′s, published a book around the year 2000 saying that Saddam was 90% disarmed of WMD’s. Funny how Hans Blix, head of the UN inspection teams reported around February and March that Saddam was cooperating with inspections and Blix said he’d be done in a few months.
Funny how everyone who was actually on the ground actually inspecting weapons said Saddam was disarming, and yet propagandists like you hiding behind pseudonyms and with no directly observable data you can somehow divine the truth that there really *were* WMD’s in Iraq.
Except there weren’t, were there? After the US invasion, American forces scoured Iraq looking for *anything* that would justify the invasion. There was huge pressure to find so much as a bottle of chlorine bleach, and they came up empty. A year or so after the invasion, an American who had been in charge of searching for WMD’s in Iraq reported that there were none and that Iraq had probably been complying with inspections.
Seriously. Do you any facts of history? Or is it all just anger and fear and you make up some story to justify it?
“and that dictator was involved in funding suicide bombers and might want to give said bombers some nerve gas to use against americans,”
The facts do not match your fiction. Which will you keep.
“(btw, this is kind of cute, notice how you blame Israel for their military policy, but don’t blame the US, just Bush…like he went in alone…),”
Who said I never blamed Bush? I opposed invading Iraq from the beginning. So did a lot of the world. Bush had to purchase a “coalition of the willing” just so he could say *someone* in another country was going along with him.
“What is their goal?”
Elections are in February. Here’s a quick report on the politics in Israel right now.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200912022614134691.html
Basically, Netanyahu is ahead in polls and he is the most hawkish candidate. The incumbent Livni is trying to look tough in time for the elections. The current Defense Minister Barak is also running and he’s probably been trying to look tougher for the last year or so.
Of course, an Israeli apologist and propagandist will never admit the possibility that Israel went to war for political purposes.
254. Greg London:
Nice piece of work (you and your comment).
I didn’t enter all the links you entered and didn’t read everything. I’ll try to do it later (honestly), but I don’t have the time right now.
I just wanted to comment on one small lie you entered there – your first link was to an article from electronicintifada.net
You wrote that Hamas didn’t fire any missiles from Jul to Nov. Yet in YOUR link is clearly states that 12 rockets and 14 mortars were fired between Jul to Oct (the numebrs are correct if I can read the small numebrs …).
Now you sheepishly claim that Hamas had nothing to do with it. Yeah, right. And Hizballah had nothing to do with the missiles fired in the last three weeks towards northern Israel.
Either Hamas controls Gaza or they don’t, but no way can you claim that some other organization fired and they had nothing to do with it. When Hamas wants to enforce a cease fire – they can.
You just proved that Israel did not attack in Gaza for over 4 months while Hamas (sorry, someone in Gaza) kept firing at Israel, several rockets and mortars every month. Than you say Israel attacked “unprovoked”.
Maybe you’d like to rephrase that long essay of yours … ?
Hi Greg, speaking of anger…lower the blood pressure for today…Obama is taking over and a new era is upon us…I appreciate the time and references you provided backing up your point of view and acknowledge that my points were not as thouroghly researched as yours…I will point out that I ask you if you thought Hamas fired any rockets in the period of calm. Your reference like shows that 27 rockets were fired into Israel during that period. The distinction is apparently that Hamas did not claim responsibility for those particular rockets, (like it matters at all who fired them to those on the receiving end).
Of course politics play into the Israeli decision to invade. And I was genuinely looking for a response and you provided me with a well thought out one. I’m trying to get real opinions here and other places and gather information that is not always available, (about either side) from the main media outlets. I still think Israel wants the rockets to stop. I still think Hamas has as a key component of their charter the total destruction of the state of Israel. I’m through with this for today, but thanks for your insite.
Read Chilean’s post.
Oh, one last thing…while I liked your references, and most of the thought put into your comment, using verbiage like “propagandists like you hiding behind pseudonyms” and “an Israeli apologist and propagandist will never admit the possibility that Israel went to war for political purposesand ” takes away from the power of your argument.
For the record, I’m neither an Israeli, (I’m Irish-German by heritage), nor a propogandist, (read my posts more carefully and you’ll see that, I hope…as for the pseudonym, well, ‘Greg’ is a little more telling than my handle, but if it makes you feel better, my name is Dan…
30. bannister wrote:
One martyr away from success.
The day one Suicide bomber explodes in an Israeli city with a load of Radioactive dust is the day before the exodus where the Euro-Russian Israelis decide to go home and leave that grandpas house to his rightful heirs.
Israel is too small to withstand this sort of terror. It wouldn’t kill many but they would leave rather than expose themselves to increased health risk.
Peter replies: Your comment just proves how little you know about Israelis. Maybe you might go run and hide if attacked badly enough, but I think the Israelis would simply wipe whoever is responsible off the face of the Earth and then go about cleaning up the mess.
How many people here use Wikipedia?
Wikipedia builds on consensus. And though sometimes the general consensus is not necessarily correct, it does filter out any single person’s bias, which is hard to do when discussing the Middle East.
I challenge all to check out these two Wikipedia entries, on “Jewish Refugees” and “Palestinian Refugees.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees
For those who can’t (or don’t want to) see the facts written on these pages, here are some excerpts:
First, the Jewish refugees: Of about 1 million Jews that lived on Arab or Persian lands before 1948, only 50,000 remain today. 41% of Jews living in Israel are of Arab (NOT European) descent, heirs to ancient Jewish communities from Morocco to Iran who fled in fear to Israel.
“The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews…from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. According to official Arab statistics, 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s. Some 600,000 resettled in Israel. …The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries estimates that Jewish property in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[2][3] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel)….Although some of the Jews emigrated because of the influence of Zionism that proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to return to their homeland, most Jews came to Israel as a result of persecution by Arab countries. … the declaration of the State of Israel in 1948 led to anti-Jewish actions in Arab countries…. Arab pogroms against Jews appeared to spread throughout the Arab world… In Libya, Jews were deprived citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized. As a result, a large number of Jews were forced to emigrate and they were not allowed to take all their property.”
The second page deals with the Palestinian refugees. Given that descendants from these refugees are also considered refugees, their number has grown from 711,000 to over 4 million. It is disturbing to see the precarious living conditions the Palestinian refugees live under. More shocking is how the very same Arab governments who criticize Israel for its mistreatment of Palestinian refugees deny these same refugees even basic rights.
“After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Arab governments expressed concern for Palestinian refugees and criticized Israel for standing in the way of helping the refugees. Critics argue the Arab governments could have easily provided the refugees with new homes, just as Israel resettled Jewish immigrants and refugees from foreign countries. Arab governments did not grant refugees citizenship and did not provide funds to improve the conditions in refugee camps.[20] Some parties criticize the lack of government assistance to relieve the refugee crisis as a way of using the Palestinian Arabs as political pawns, exploiting them as tools against Israel and promoting anti-Israel sentiment.[21][22] In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating that “Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason.[23][24] The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) “to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland”.[25]
Syrian Prime Minister, Khalid al-Azm, wrote in his 1973 memoirs:
” Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees [...] while it is we who made them leave. [...] We brought disaster upon [...] Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave. [...] We have rendered them dispossessed. [...] We have accustomed them to begging. [...] We have participated in lowering their moral and social level. [...] Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon [...] men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes.”
“Since the first 100,000 Palestinians entered Lebanon in 1948, they have lived in “legal limbo.”[29] The Palestinians’ Lebanese camps became ghettos as the Palestinians were barred from citizenship, finding certain jobs, or traveling abroad.[29] Lebanon barred Palestinians from 73 job categories, including professions such as medicine, law and engineering. They are not allowed to own property. Unlike other foreigners in Lebanon, they are denied access to the Lebanese healthcare system. The Lebanese government refused to grant them work permits or permission to own land. The number of restrictions has been mounting since 1990.[30] In June 2005, however, the government of Lebanon removed some work restrictions from a few Lebanese-born Palestinians, enabling them to apply for work permits and work in the private sector.[31] In a 2007 study, Amnesty International denounced the “appalling social and economic condition” of Palestinians in Lebanon.[32] Many Lebanese deeply oppose expanding the Palestinians’ rights.[29]…There are still about 350,000 non-citizen Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.”
“After the Gulf War of 1990-1991, Kuwait and other Gulf Arab monarchies expelled more than 400,000 Palestinian refugees and ended financial support of Palestinians[34]) in response to the PLO’s support of Iraq during the invasion of Kuwait. During Egypt’s occupation of the Gaza Strip, Egypt denied the Gaza Strip’s residents citizenship rights and did not allow them to move to Egypt or anywhere outside of the Strip. ”
There is also an excellent page in Wikipedia regarding the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, and the events that led up to it.
In essence, this was a barren land, until migrating Jews developed it, creating job opportunities which unemployed Arabs in neighboring regions took advantage of. It is unclear whether the Arabs could have done a similar job to develop the land, but the point is moot. The fact is the Jews did it, not the Arabs. At first the Arabs welcomed the Jews and the economic prosperity they brought, but they quickly realized that as more Jews came, they would be outnumbered. This is similar to the struggle that was fought in North America between Native Americans and the colonists. The major difference is that the Jews were not “colonists.” There has always been a Jewish presence in Palestine. The analogy would only work if the so-called “colonists” were actually an ancient Native American tribe, whose numbers had dwindled but not disappeared, welcoming the return of their long lost brethren to their homeland. Couldn’t this tribe live in peace with its neighbors? It tried, but the other tribes declared war as soon as they arrived.
Conflict between the Jews and Arabs in Palestine predates WWII, starting as early as the 1920′s. By 1948 Palestine was already in the midst of a civil war. Israel’s declaration of independence merely formalized the war between Jewish militias and the Arabs. Arab army units were already present in Palestine, as the British were more interested in exiting this deteriorating situation than maintaining order. The Jews originally accepted the tenuous borders the UN had prescribed them (in which they were a majority). During the war, however, the Jews were not only able to repel the Arab armies of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq, they were able to take adjoining pieces of land that made feasible the securing of borders against hostile neighbors. Of course, many Arabs living in those tracts of land who decided to flee the war were left on the wrong side of the armistice line, and were made homeless. The Jews were not interested in seeing the return of thousands of potentially hostile Arabs to the land they defended with their blood. Compensation for losses was conditioned to Arab compensation to the Jews who were also made refugees. Those Arabs who decided to stay in Israel, however, were granted full citizenship. The few unfortunate Jews who were living in the Arab-controlled West Bank, however, were expelled. Jewish refugees from the Arab world were incorporated into the growing Israeli society. Arab refugees were cramped into unsanitary refugee camps to serve as political pawns against Israel. 60 years later, many still live in the same conditions.
Thus began the refugee crisis and ensuing cycle of violence in the Middle East: A struggle between an ancient Middle Eastern people who have had to use force -sometimes to excess- to re-establish their homeland, and their neighbors forever bent on destroying them.
“I just wanted to comment on one small lie you entered there … You wrote that Hamas didn’t fire any missiles from Jul to Nov. Yet in YOUR link is clearly states that 12 rockets and 14 mortars were fired between Jul to Oct (the numebrs are correct if I can read the small numebrs …). Now you sheepishly claim that Hamas had nothing to do with it.”
The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (a centre-right Israeli intelligence think tank) *sheepishly* claimed that it was not Hamas but “rogue terrorist organisations”.
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009110112723260741.html
The question is simply whether Israel demands perfection on the part of all of Gaza before it will make a single concession. Was the ceasefire perfect? No. Was it *working*? Yes.
And what did Israel concede after four months of a working ceasefire?
Nothing. Or rather, Israel attacked Hamas and killed several of its members.
If Israel demands perfection, it should start demonstrating perfection.
Was Israel’s blockade of Gaza for the last two years perfect? Or did civilians suffer for the actions of Hamas? Was Israel’s three week war with Gaza perfect? Or did 300 innnocent children die from Israeli weapons that shouldn’t have died?
17 Israelis were killed by Hamas rockets in 2008, most before the ceasefire started in July. at least 300 palestinian children and 200 adult unarmed civilians were killed by Israel’s war against Gaza.
And you want to quibble about perfection?
Anyone who quibbles about perfection hasn’t looked in the mirror.
Hey Greg…sooooo you read aljazeera often? Hmmm don’t suppose there is any slant in their reporting is there?
thereligionofpeace.com
And this Satanic cult is about peace?
prophetofdoom/prohet_of_doom_prologue.Islam
See the words for yourself!
Obsessionthemovie.com
Watch the video!!
As an Israeli traveling abroad, I do not quite see what those arguing for liquidation of Israel have in stock for Israelis. I see, wherever I travel, desecration of Jewish tombs, synagogues, attacks on Jews etc. The only place I feel safe is in Israel, and you won’t move me from there alive.
I consider Israel as rightfully mine. Jews lived there for thousands of years (e.g. Hebron community), have their main holy place there, were awarded the state by international community and defended it successfully every time against aggression.
Most of the people in Israel were born there and lived there the whole life. Whatever their grandfathers did or did not is already history, and they cannot be collectively punished for this now. You can speak about historic justice here but those to be judged are mostly dead.
We do feel threatened by surrounding Muslim world. After all, they are about a billion, and we are 6 millions (this ratio 1:160 is reflected in e.g. our exchange deals with Hezbs, and somehow nobody is arguing about it, unlike war losses ratios). We do not like being shot at, and will answer in traditional, disproportional manner, the only manner wars are conducted and won for thousands of years. We are ready to make peace, and do it whenever possible (Egypt and Jordan). We offered full peace to Arafat, and moved from Gaza, and get intiada and rockets as the answers. I think we did our part. I will not apology for my existence and will not shoot myself, the only proposition they seem willing to accept. They will have to learn to live with it. Till then I’ll have to defend myself (as nobody else seems to care).
About Gaza IMHO the case is clear: it is a sovereign territory governed by criminal and terrorist organization, using Iranian and UN money to construct and shoot rockets, which is clear casus belly. Israel does not control or occupy it, no more than Egypt. If you shouldn’t wage war in this case, when you can?
Would everybody just leave islam and other muslims out of this?. Just hold the arabs and the jews responsible for whatever mess they make in the mideast, and please tell israel to lift the blockade on gaza,it is not an extension of the jewish territory
Wow, I’s never call somebody a son of a monkey or a pig. Throw your damn rocks, or your damn missiles. Don’t cry when you’re slapped back.
“Hey Greg…sooooo you read aljazeera often?”
Actually. No. I mostly use google and use whatever sites show up that have some sort of verifiable information. You may notice that my posts try to remain tied to objective facts. Number of rockets fired. Number of civilians killed. If I present a subjective judgement, I generally try to back it up with various expert opinions, like the UN, Amnesty International, the Red Cross, international law experts, and so on.
The link to Al Jazeera pointed to an article the quoted the Israeli think tank. I’m not quoting Al Jazeera’s opinion at that point, I’m quoting the Israeli think tank. It just happens that pro-israeli sources are more likely to bury something like that report.
If the think tank’s report didn’t actually say what Al Jazeera said it said, then Al Jazeera is to blame. But if the think tank report actually said what Al Jazeera said it said, then bringing up AL Jazeera to cast doubt on a factually true quote is a red herring on your part.
For example, you might have noticed that pajamasmedia has three articles including this one that are all vehemently, almost rabidly, pro-Israel and pro-war. Subjective information from this site is suspect, but if this site quotes the UN as saying “blah”, then the fact that pajamasmedia reported that fact doesn’t make it a nonfact.
“Hmmm don’t suppose there is any slant in their reporting is there?”
Let he who is not biased cast the first stone.
Greg London
I take it you want to get stoned or something like that. You’re not Christ and you’re not protecting Mary Magdelene. If something looks like sh’t and smells like sh’t it doesn’t matter what orifice it came out of. Its how its used that really matters. Are you open minded enough to go to Sderot and count the actual number of missiles that hit there? Then try living there. Take along an umbrella, just in case its raining mortar rounds.
“Are you open minded enough to go to Sderot and count the actual number of missiles that hit there?”
Are you saying the Israeli Foreign Ministry didn’t report all the rocket attacks from Hamas? That they underreported the numbers for some reason? Or are we supposed to disbelieve those numbers from the Israeli Foreign Ministry because Al Jazeera happened to report them?
Otherwise, you have no point, other than an attempt to distract people from the facts, reported by Israel’s own government, based on little more than your attempt at shooting the messenger.
trucker gal ,
why don’t you go and drive the lebanese into the mediterranean sea and invite the israelis to come occupy lebanon just because tbe bible says so
Greg London
Israel is a conundrum. It will report the news whether it is good or not. It will pay for a film like Waltzing with Basher which really damns it. This is because there is a real vein of morality which it is built on. That is what makes it truly different from the Arab side. You’ll never get both sides of the picture from their side. You’ll only get what they want you to believe. So far dear man, you’re only seeing with one eye. Opening both eyes may not be pretty and probably won’t change your mind. Binocular vision isn’t always nice. What flows out of you right now is like a poison. In the end, like any organism, we will become immune to it. In the end, you’ll see there is no right or wrong. The Moslem world does horrible things, so do the Israelis. For Israel it is simple. It faces a world of 1.3 billion Moslems who want to destroy it. Yes it does some ugly things. Israel will admit it. Ask the Moslems about the ugly things they do and they will deny it, justify it or change the subject. Example: Darfur where Moslems kill fellow Moslems because they are black. Hundreds of thousands have been killed there but the media and you are tune in on Palestine. If I listed every hateful thing the Moslems have done my list would be many pages long. I’ll take the Jewish list of horrible things any time. It is much shorter.
To 264 delarosa — Are you an ostrich, with your head in the ground? How can anyone discussing this topic “just leave Islam and other muslims out of it”? The biggest supporter of Palestinian terrorism at the moment is Iran — a muslim, non-Arabic nation. And it is the Arab and other muslim nations that have conspired to keep Palestinians as “refugees” for the past sixty years, inciting them to nurse their grievances (like picking at an open wound) instead of helping them to achieve the nationhood they want . . . and never had historically (see many factual posts above, or go do your own homework.) Also, who are the perpetrators of violence against Jews and Israelis outside of the Middle East? NOT Palestinians, for the most part, but followers of Islam. Islam has, from its inception, been a crusading, proselytizing religion that never hesitated to convert by the sword. “Death to infidel” isn’t a phrase the Jews invented! You may not subscribe to these twisted beliefs — if so, why doesn’t the world see massive uprisings by muslims like you who AREN’T Islamo-fascists wanting to ram their beliefs down everyone’s throats? Don’t their terrorist actions shame you and besmirch your religion? As for the rest of us non-muslims — pay attention. When Europe cringes and turns its back on the very foundations of Western civilization (check out the cowardice over the Danish cartoons and what free speech means in true democracies — not to mention the rights of women, equality, freedom of — and from — worship) we’re all in trouble. You can spout all the anti-semitism you like and hate both Jews and Israelis — but if we allow Islamic terrorism to win there, who do you think will be the next target? It’s not Israel that has dreams of territorial expansion — it’s the 1.3 billion Muslims who do.
43. Lilith asked:
Any idea what life is like on the average reserve (Canada) or reservation (U.S.)…
Peter responds: I don’t know about where you live, but where I live the Native Americans living on the reservations are raking in the bucks by the bus-load, to the point where almost every other recognized tribe is doing the same thing, and expanding their reservations by buying more land, not by invading neighboring towns or launching missiles at innocent civilians.
Hmmm… Buying the land. Sounds like something a country called Israel did several decades ago.
77. peacock chaser wrote:
If you play with fire, sooner or later you will get burned. Hamas found that out. However, i doubt if the lesson will stick with them.
Peter writes: It’s already happening. During The One’s coronation… I mean, inauguration, Hamas leaders (the same ones cringing in fear in the basement of the hospital a day ago) were declaring victory over Israel and dancing in the streets.
Would have been a good time for some last minute ordinance to just happen to arrive on scene.
79. Ava wrote:
So you don’t believe that the Holocaust should have been stopped? The Nazis were, of course, the stronger ones.
Peter writes: Obviously they weren’t. Because the Allies beat them. World War II was not simply the Nazis against the Jews, as you seem to imply.
81. Anna wrote:
Do you really believe that the problem began with the Palestinians lobbing rockets at the poor Israelis? Have you ever questioned why 1.5 million people have been shoved into a concentartion camp with barbed wire around it?
Peter responds: Hey Anna, have you ever questioned where you get your information? The Jews were contained in concentration camps. Gaza is an area of land that Israel gave up willingly under the impression that the Arabs might get off their lazy @$$es and actually try and build a country out of. The only reason there are walls and fences around the borders is because instead of actually doing something productive, the Arabs decided they liked the land on the other side better, except for those nasty, pesky Jews who would simply not just die and solve the whole problem, so they started sending bomb-laden suicide attackers into Israel.
It has been said before and it will be said many, many times again, if the Arabs would just give up attacking Israel, the Gaza alone could be as rich and productive as Hong Kong or Singapore.
86. Govan wrote:
President Roosevelt promised the Saudia King, on a trip to the RED SEA via boat, that the jewish refugees WOULD NOT take over the soveriegn country of Palestine at nthe end of WW II-
Peter asks: And where the heck did you get that line of BS? There is not, and NEVER HAS BEEN any country, sovereign or otherwise, called Palestine! Get it through your thick skull. Go read a REAL history text, not something you picked up in an Arab pre-school.
98. MIke Reynolds wrote:
I had the landlord’s permission; you didn’t even own the house
—It was still mine; I lived in it; no one asked me if you could move in
Peter responds: Mike, I want to see you try and use THAT excuse the next time your landlord rents out your apartment to someone willing to pay a higher rent. Then tell it to the Marshals who throw all your belongings out on the street as they evict you. And be sure to tell it to the moving company when the new tenant starts moving his stuff into ‘your’ apartment.
“Yes it does some ugly things. Israel will admit it.”
Actually, they don’t. Israel will not admit to its actions without putting the “spin” on it that someone else “made them do it”.
Hamas rockets killed 17 Israelis in 2008.
Israel killed 300 Palestinian children in the last 3 weeks and another 300 unarmed adult civilians.
I cannot post these factual numbers without having teh Israeli apologists trying to change the subject. Hamas hides among civilians. Hamas shot at us first. Hamas this. Hamas that.
“Ask the Moslems about the ugly things they do and they will deny it, justify it or change the subject.”
I’ve been calling for holding Hamas responsible for those deaths too. Hamas rockets killed 17 Israelis in the whole year of 2008. They should be held to account for those deaths.
THe thing is I’ve been calling for holding Israel responsible for the deaths Israel causes, and it’s the Israeli apologists who deny it, justify it or change the subject.
This may seem like a benign point to make, but it wasn’t the Muslims that kicked out the Jews. It was actually the Christian’s, because they blamed the Jews for killing Christ. The Diaspora during Roman times scattered the Jews throughout the middle east, but they were relatively well received. It wasn’t until the rise of Christianity that they fled further into Europe. All in All, I thought it was a pretty good story, and I definately don’t have an answer. As a person of Irish descent, my grandfather came to the U.S. because he was in the I.R.A. and the Brits were looking for him. He was just defending his homeland against what he saw as English tyrany, and the English had been in Ireland for like 500 years. I feel for the Palestinian’s, but enough is enough. They both need to learn how to resolve this thing.
275, 276 and 277 Peter the Bubblehead — you are among the few people posting here who knows any of the actual, factual history of this tortured land. I’m really appreciating what you have to say, though it appears you are reaching a point of high frustration with these knuckleheads, like Govan. Unfortunately, you will never convince him even if you drown them in facts that there never was a sovereign nation called “Palestine” governed by a peopled calling themselves “Palestinians” (or that such a nation STILL doesn’t exist) The Big Lie that has kept these people marooned in Gaza, and unwelcome anywhere in the large and oil-rich world of their Arab cousins has become a truth to them. I applaud the optimism of your suggestion that if the Arabs would just stop throwing their entire life’s energy into hating and killing Jews, they could have a Singapore or a Hong Kong in Gaza (or a major tourist draw like Dubai??) I don’t think I’ll live to see it, do you? What I do know is that DN (post 263), who says he is “an Israeli traveling abroad,” says, “I see, wherever I travel, desecration of Jewish tombs, synagogues, attacks on Jews etc. The only place I feel safe is in Israel, and you won’t move me from there alive. I consider Israel as rightfully mine. Jews lived there for thousands of years (e.g. Hebron community), have their main holy place there, were awarded the state by international community and defended it successfully every time against aggression.” Most of these posters not only have no knowledge of history, or who rightfully possesses the land, or how many times the Palestinians have blown their chance to get the independent state they were awarded at the same time Israel was created — they are too stupid to have noticed that the Israelis are tough, smart, productive, well-trained, well-armed — and they will never give up. The population consists of people who have been kicked out of too many countries to count, and trust me, DN is right — they aren’t going anywhere. Again, Thanks, Peter, for your sage commentary.
The real problem here is Islam,the Muslims refuse to live peacefully with non-muslims not just in the ME but everywhere. Check the globe,throughout history,and especially now,everywhere that Islam rubs up against non-muslims there are problems. It is in the Koran that Islam must be spread,that infidels must be killed..etc. While Islam continues,unexamined by reason,with no progress along with the rest of humanity there will always be problems. The Arab mentality that dominates Islam is a vicious,tribal,totalitarian,backwards and immoral culture,with no justice or freedom. No freedom to even dream of questioning the religion, this leads to ignorance and fanaticism. In this culture,morality means nothing,might equals right. IMO, Islam is the greatest threat facing humanity today, it enslaves its followers and seeks to do the same to us all.
These people quoting the Bible are laughable,quoting a fairytale to justify or explain anything is ridiculous. ‘God said this,God said that”…LMAO, It sure is odd that God only spoke to Moses,Jesus,and Mohammad,no one else,EVER. Odd that he only appeared back when mankind was ignorant and fearful of everything.What about all of the other “Gods” throughout history ? Where’d they go ? Eventually this one will become extinct too as peoples minds open up. Surely he could appear to everyone,all at once and end all of the arguing and violence once and for all,that he has not points strongly to the absurdity of it all. Is it just me or does anyone else find it odd that he hasn’t ?
you are factually incorrect. the bible states that god spoke to all of the people at mt sinai. unless you believe that a mass conspiracy of atleast 1.2 million people(there were specifically over 600,000 men there over the age of 20) would lie and tell their children that god spoke to them and not one person would deviate from that lie it must be true. since history shows that conspiracies on much larger scales tend to fall apart due to 1 person. but ill give you jesus and mohamed as they were the only ones who aparently spoke to god by themselves and started a religion based on that. and if u do believe a mass conspiracy of that size is actually possible, just remember ure cell phone camera is recording you so the government will know everything u r doing
to #146.
The age of Aisha is NOT debatable,you don’t have to lie for Mohammad, she was married at 6,raped at 9, and lived with Mohammad until his death when she was 18. To try to excuse it as a thing of the times makes it no less immoral. I highly doubt that a 9 year old girl has ever been viewed by any culture as a woman. Even in the most backwards of societies a girl was a child until menstruation at least.
It is fact that Mohammad was a pedophile,thief,murderer,and a rapist. Don’t take my word for it,read the Hadiths. The Hadiths and Koran make it clear to anyone with even a tiny bit of sense that Mohammad made the whole thing up as he went along, aside from what he borrowed from the Jews and Christians. That the Arab culture view him as the ideal Islamic man says a lot about their culture or lack thereof.
NILEBABY,
when the Palestinians were in Jordan they did nothing but cause trouble,Hamas was doing terrorism there too,that’s why they were thrown out. Then the were in Lebanon,they destroyed that country too,killed most of the Christians,and destroyed a once prosperous country. To be honest, the world wouldn’t miss the Palestinians one bit……
to 271 clairrette
There is no compulsion in religion so the issue of trying to ram a belief down anybody’s throat is out of the question. You talk as if all muslims are terror minded,if that was the case then the world would have been destroyed by now.
You said iranians are not arabs,are they americans? or why else are they in the arab league, and as for moderate muslims not doing anything about hardliners, what do you call what the pakistani govt is doing along it’s border with afghanistan(attacking millitant’s stronghold)
And are the CRUSADERS not x-tians?!!!!
Hi Greg
I am certainly not saying my country is perfect.
I don’t think everything we have done is OK, and I certainly don’t think we didn’t make errors. Everybody makes errors. We are humans, even though some think we (Israelis) are not. Are we not the children of monkeys and pigs ?
I should tell you that for years I was a very big peace supporter. I went to meetings with Arabs in the west bank, I went to more domonstrations than you can imagine demanding my country does anything in her power to make peace. I believed in giving back all the occupied territories to appease the Arabs around us be it the west bank, Gaza or the Golan heights. I KNEW even than that the Palestinian people is an invention made in the second half on the 20th century, but since they now define themselves as a nation – I thought (and still think) I can’t argue with them. It doesn’t matter what the historical truth really is. They deserve to live just like you and me. Maybe it’s also time that I tell you that my heart goes out to those poor people in Gaza. They are being used by so many countries around. They are really poor people. But instead of building their lives they vote for Hamas and allow their homes to be used as terror bases. They allow Iran to steer things up for them instaed of controlling their own lives.
Something changed in the last 5 years for me. I learned that our partners (and you make peace with partners not with yourself) simply don’t want to make peace with us. The writer put it perfectly in my opinion – they are more interested in killing us than prospering themselves. Obviously there are a lot of different people on both sides. There are peaceseekers on both sides (yet you hardly hear them on the Palestinian side), but no Palestinian leader could ever give up on the right of return, and no Israeli leader could ever accept it – it would be the utter destrcution of Israel as a Muslim state would rise instead, no doubt about it. The two state solution is unacceptable to them, as it always has, since the Peel Commission on 1937 till the negotiations with Yasser Arafat that ended in his refusal to accept a Palestinian state in very close borders to the 1967 borders.
Anyway, to make a long story short – please leave your prejudice and ask yourself truly – are the Palestinians willing to make peace ? Are they willing to accept the fact that Israel is here to stay, get the best deal they can get (1967 borders) and start building up their country. I used to think they want it. I now believe they will never stop at that. As long as Israel exists, even if only in Tel-Aviv, they will never stop. I am TELLING you that Israel would make this peace if only we had a partner. I voted for Rabin, Peres and Barak wanting them to make peace. And they tried, offering perhaps more than they should have, but the other side refused.
As for your specific remarks about the IDF hitting civilians – it is obvious you live in the US or Europe and not in the middle east.
You have no idea what’s going on here, and it seems I won’t convince you. It won’t matter if I tell you that your number of children killed you wrote is a joke. EVERY child killed anywhere is horrible, but these numbers are absurd. A 16 year old kid sent to fire a rocket dies while firing, and you count him as an innocent child. An armed militant picks up a child while crossing the street to make sure nobody shoots him (have you seen that one on youtube ?). Hamas sending children to deliver arms thinking – “hey, the Israelis won’t shoot them – they are children. We can use them.” Sorry, but when you use civilian population for military purposes, they are legitimate targets, as bad as it sounds. When you fire from a house it becomes a target. If I were a Palestinian and a militant would shoot from my own home I’d kick him out. I know you are now saying – no, you won’t, but I would if I’d want to live. If I’d want peace.
I know you’d say that Gaza is very small and denstly populated. So what. If you shoot at me from a building that building is a legitimate target. If you hide weapons there – I’ll bomb it. I realize it sounds bad, but any other way and these rockets will would have been fired at me.
I assure you that when the US and Europe bomb trains or populated areas in Afganistan or Iraq, they don’t care about civilians as the IDF does.
I assure you that when NATO attacked in former Yoguslavia they didn’t care about civilians as the IDF does.
I assure you that when Russia attacked in Grozny, Chechnya or in Georgia last July, they didn’t put even 1% of the time put by the IDF to prevent civilians from getting hurt.
This is not “Zionist propoganda”. These are facts, and I am sure you didn’t put even 10% of the energy you put into condeming Israel into demanding Russia\US\EU or NATO stop their attacks. I am also sure you are not working so hard on helping the millions getting killed and raped on a yearly basis in Africa. You, like so many others, have a big problem with Israel, and you completely ignore the wrongs of your own country.
I’ve done enough talking.
When a Palestinian leader rises and really aceept a two-state solution that allows both sides to live in peace – there will be peace. Israel will give up territory that is RIGHTFULLY hers, territory Israel got through a DEFENSIVE war (go and read what happened on May 1967 before Jun 5th). When Israel has a partner to make peace with, we’ll all have peace.
Here’s a brief overview of the history of Palestine from 600 A.D. until the late 1990′s.
During the A.D. 600′s, Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900′s. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers.
In the 1000′s, the Seljuks, a Turkish people, began to take over Palestine. They gained control of Jerusalem in 1071. Seljuk rule of Palestine lasted less than 30 years. Christian crusaders from Europe wanted to regain the land where their religion began. The Crusades started in 1096. The Christians captured Jerusalem in 1099. They held the city until 1187, when the Muslim ruler Saladin attacked Palestine and took control of Jerusalem.
In the mid-1200′s, Mamelukes based in Egypt established an empire that in time included Palestine. Arab Muslims made up most of Palestine’s population. Beginning in the late 1300′s, Jews from Spain and other Mediterranean lands settled in Jerusalem and other parts of Palestine. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Mamelukes in 1517, and Palestine became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish population slowly increased, and by 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine.
The Zionist movement. Beginning in the late 1800′s, oppression of Jews in Eastern Europe set off a mass emigration of Jewish refugees. Some Jews formed a movement called Zionism, which sought to make Palestine an independent Jewish nation. The Zionists established farm colonies in Palestine. At the same time, Palestine’s Arab population grew rapidly. By 1914, the total population of Palestine stood at 700,000. About 615,000 people were Arabs, and 85,000 were Jews.
World War I and the Balfour Declaration. During World War I (1914-1918), the Ottoman Empire joined Germany and Austria-Hungary against the Allies. An Ottoman military government ruled Palestine. Britain and some of the European Allies planned to divide the Ottoman Empire among themselves after the war. The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 called for part of Palestine to be placed under a joint Allied government. Britain offered to back Arab demands for postwar independence from the Ottomans in return for Arab support for the Allies. In 1916, some Arabs revolted against the Ottomans in the belief that Britain would help establish Arab independence in the Middle East. The Arabs later claimed that Palestine was included in the area promised to them, but the British denied this.
In 1917, in an attempt to gain Jewish support for its war effort, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration. The declaration stated Britain’s support for the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine, without violating the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities.
After the war, the League of Nations divided much of the Ottoman Empire into mandated territories (see MANDATED TERRITORY). In 1920, Britain received a provisional mandate over Palestine, which would extend west and east of the River Jordan. The British were to help the Jews build a national home and promote the creation of self-governing institutions. In 1922, the League declared that the boundary of Palestine would be limited to the area west of the river. The area east of the river, called Transjordan (now Jordan), was made a separate British mandate. The two mandates took effect in 1923.
The terms of the Palestine mandate were not clear, and various parties interpreted it differently. Many Zionists believed that Britain did not do enough to promote a Jewish national home. They especially opposed restrictions set by the British on Jewish immigration and land purchases. The British hoped to establish self-governing institutions, as required by the mandate. But their proposals for such institutions were unacceptable to the Arabs, and so none were created.
The Arabs opposed the idea of a Jewish national home. They feared that the British were handing Palestine over to the Zionists by allowing too many Jews to immigrate to Palestine. During this period, a Palestinian Arab national movement first appeared. On several occasions, riots and demonstrations were mounted by the Arabs to protest British policies and Zionist activities.
In the early 1930′s, over 100,000 Jewish refugees came to Palestine from Nazi Germany and Poland. This development alarmed the Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs organized a general uprising that almost paralyzed Palestine during the late 1930′s. In 1939, the British began to drastically limit Jewish immigration and land purchases for the next five years. Any Jewish immigration after that would depend on Arab approval.
World War II and the division of Palestine. During World War II (1939-1945), many Palestinian Arabs and Jews joined the Allied forces. After the war, the Zionists used force to stop Britain from limiting Jewish immigration into Palestine. The Zionists wanted the British to allow immigration of several hundred thousand Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, the mass murder of European Jews by the Nazis.
The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international control. The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947. The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. Fighting broke out immediately.
On May 14, 1948, the Jews proclaimed the independent State of Israel, and the British withdrew from Palestine. The next day, neighboring Arab nations attacked Israel. When the fighting ended in 1949, Israel held territories beyond the boundaries set by the UN plan. The rest of the area assigned to the Arab state was occupied by Egypt and Jordan. Egypt held the Gaza Strip and Jordan held the West Bank. About 700,000 Arabs fled or were driven out of Israel and became refugees in neighboring Arab countries.
The continuing conflict and peace efforts. The UN arranged a series of cease-fires between the Arabs and the Jews in 1948 and 1949. Full-scale wars broke out again in 1956 and 1967. By the time the UN cease-fire ended the 1967 war, Israel had occupied the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Israel also held Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula and Syria’s Golan Heights. In October 1973, Egypt and Syria launched a war against Israel. Cease-fires ended most of the fighting within a month.
The 1967 war brought about a million Palestinian Arabs under Israeli rule. After the war, the fate of the Palestinians came to play a large role in the Arab-Israeli struggle. In time, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) became recognized by all the Arab states as the representative of the Palestinian people. The PLO pledged to liberate Palestine. Israel strongly opposed the PLO because of its terrorist acts against Jews.
In 1978, Egypt and Israel signed the Camp David Accords, an agreement designed to settle their disputes. Israel withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula in 1982. The agreement included provisions for a five-year period of self-government for the residents of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. This period was to be followed by a decision about the future status of these territories. But no arrangement for such self-government was made following the agreement.
Beginning in 1987, periods of violence occurred in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank as protests by Arabs swept through the regions. These actions were called the intifada, which means uprising in Arabic. Israeli troops killed a number of protesters. In 1993, 1995, and 1997, Israel and the PLO signed agreements that led to the withdrawal of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip and most cities and towns of the West Bank. As the Israelis withdrew, Palestinians took control of these areas. In January 1996, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the Palestinian-controlled parts of the West Bank elected a legislature and a president to make laws and administer these areas.
Might as well include the conflict.
Arab-Israeli conflict is a struggle between the Jewish state of Israel and the Arabs of the Middle East. About 90 percent of all Arabs are Muslims. The conflict has included several wars between Israel and certain Arab countries that have opposed Israel’s existence. Israel was formed in 1948. The conflict has also involved a struggle by Palestinian Arabs to establish their own country in some or all of the land occupied by Israel.
The Arab-Israeli conflict is the continuation of an Arab-Jewish struggle that began in the early 1900′s for control of Palestine. Palestine today consists of Israel and the areas known as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The Palestinians lived in the region long before Jews began moving there in large numbers in the late 1800′s.
The Arab-Israeli conflict has been hard to resolve. In 1979, however, Egypt became the first Arab country to sign a peace treaty with Israel. In 1993, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Israel agreed to seek peace between themselves. The PLO is a political body that represents the Palestinian people. Jordan, another Arab country, signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1994.
Historical background. In the mid-1800′s, Jewish intellectuals in Europe began to support the idea that Jews should settle in Palestine, which the Bible describes as the Jews’ ancient homeland. The word Palestine does not appear in the Bible. But it has long been used to refer to the area the Bible describes. The idea that Jews should settle in Palestine became known as Zionism. In the 1800′s, Palestine was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, which was centered in present-day Turkey.
Zionism became an important political movement among Jews in Europe because of increasing anti-Semitism (prejudice against Jews) there. The anti-Semitism resulted in violent attacks on Jews and their property. In the 1800′s, the immigration of European Jews to Palestine accelerated. At first, many of the immigrants and the Palestinian Arabs lived together peacefully. But as more Jews arrived, conflicts between the two groups increased.
After World War I ended in 1918, Britain gained control of Palestine from the Ottoman Empire. In the Balfour Declaration of 1917, Britain had supported creating a national homeland for the Jews. Under British rule, the Jewish population of Palestine continued to grow.
During World War II (1939-1945), German dictator Adolf Hitler tried to kill all of Europe’s Jews. Thus, about 6 million Jews were murdered. After the war, most of the countries that defeated Germany supported the idea of creating a new Jewish state where Jews would be safe from persecution.
The 1948 war. In November 1947, the United Nations (UN) approved a plan to divide Palestine into two states, one Jewish and the other Palestinian. Zionist leaders accepted the plan. But Arab governments and the Palestinians saw the division as the theft of Arab land by Zionists and the governments that supported them.
British rule over Palestine ended when Zionists proclaimed the state of Israel on May 14, 1948. The next day, armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan (which became known as Jordan in 1949), and Iraq attacked Israel. Israel fought back. In the war, Israel absorbed much of the land the UN had set aside for the Palestinians. Egypt and Jordan occupied the rest of the area that was assigned to the Palestinians. Egypt held the Gaza Strip, a small area between Israel and the Mediterranean Sea. Jordan held the West Bank, a territory between Israel and the River Jordan. By August 1949, Israel and all five Arab states had agreed to end the fighting. Because of the war, about 700,000 Palestinians became refugees. Most fled to Jordan–including the West Bank–or to the Gaza Strip. Others went to Lebanon and Syria.
The Suez crisis of 1956. During the 1950′s, nationalism spread among the Arab countries of the Middle East. Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser and his followers sought to rid Arab lands of the influence of Western nations. On July 26, 1956, Nasser took control of the Suez Canal from its British and French owners. The canal connects the Mediterranean and Red seas and is a key shipping route between Europe and Asia.
Many countries protested Nasser’s action. Britain, France, and Israel secretly plotted to end Egypt’s control of the canal. On October 29, Israel attacked Egyptian forces in Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula and quickly defeated them. The Sinai lies between Israel and the canal. Israel, with British and French help, occupied most of the peninsula. The UN called a cease-fire on November 6. By early 1957, Israel, under international pressure, returned the Sinai to Egypt. The canal reopened under Egyptian management in April of that year.
After the Suez crisis, Arab guerrillas launched small-scale attacks inside Israel, and Israel responded with raids into Arab territory. At the same time, the Arab nationalist movement began receiving financial and military support from the Soviet Union. The United States, fearing the spread of Soviet-sponsored Communism, gave financial and military aid to Israel.
In 1964, the PLO was formed to represent the Palestinians. It included guerrilla groups dedicated to defeating Israel and creating an independent Palestinian state.
The 1967 war. In May 1967, Nasser closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping. The gulf was Israel’s only access to the Red Sea. By June 5, Egypt had signed defense agreements with Syria, Jordan, and Iraq, creating a joint military command.
These apparent preparations for war alarmed the Israelis. On June 5, they launched a surprise attack on Egypt. Syria, Jordan, and Iraq joined Egypt in fighting Israel. Within hours, Israeli warplanes destroyed almost all the Arab air forces. Israeli tanks then retook the Sinai Peninsula. Israel also gained control of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. It had taken West Jerusalem in the 1948 war. In the north, Israel took Syria’s Golan Heights, an area bordering Israel. The fighting ended on June 10. Israelis call this conflict the Six-Day War. Arabs call it the June War. After the war, Israel decided it would return the territories it had taken only if the Arab countries recognized its right to exist.
Also after the 1967 war, the PLO sought to become the representative of the Palestinians in world politics. It developed educational and social service organizations for Palestinians, mainly in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan.
The PLO also began to take independent military action. In the late 1960′s, PLO groups began to attack Israelis both inside and outside Israel. In response, Israel attacked Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon, in which many guerrillas were based. The Israelis also assassinated a number of PLO leaders.
The 1973 war. After the 1967 war, Egyptian and Israeli troops continued to attack each other across the western border of the Sinai Peninsula. On Oct. 6, 1973, Egypt and Syria launched a massive assault on Israeli forces in the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights. The attack took Israel by surprise, in part because it came on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in Judaism.
At first, Egypt drove Israel’s forces out of the western Sinai, and Syria pushed Israeli troops from the eastern Golan Heights. However, the United States gave Israel large amounts of military equipment. By October 24, Israeli forces crossed the Suez Canal and surrounded the Egyptian army. They also defeated the Syrian army in the Golan Heights. Israelis call this war the Yom Kippur War. Arabs call it the October War or the Ramadan War.
The Camp David Accords. In 1978, Egyptian President Anwar el-Sadat joined Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and U.S. President Jimmy Carter in signing the Camp David Accords. Under these agreements, Egypt recognized Israel’s right to exist. In return, Israel agreed to give back to Egypt the part of the Sinai it still occupied. Israel had returned the far western part of the Sinai in 1975. Sadat and Begin also agreed there was a need for national independence for the Palestinians. In talks leading up to the accords, Egypt and Israel received promises of large amounts of U.S. economic and military aid. In 1979, Egypt and Israel signed a treaty that confirmed their new peaceful relationship.
Most Arab leaders strongly opposed the Camp David Accords and the 1979 treaty. As a result, Egypt was expelled from the Arab League, an organization of Arab nations, in 1979. In 1981, Sadat was assassinated by an Egyptian religious group that opposed his policies.
The Israeli invasion of Lebanon. After the signing of the Camp David Accords, the PLO continued to launch guerrilla attacks on Israel, especially from southern Lebanon. In 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon and drove the PLO out of the southern part of the country.
The intifada. In 1987, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip began an uprising against Israel’s military rule of those territories. The uprising became known as the intifada, an Arabic term meaning uprising or shaking off. Demonstrations occurred throughout the occupied territories. Entire towns refused to pay taxes to Israel. Palestinians quit their jobs with Israeli employers. Most of the demonstrations were peaceful, but a few became violent. The intifada grabbed international attention and triggered criticism of Israel for its continuing control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and for its extensive use of force in trying to control the Palestinians.
Peacemaking. In 1988, the PLO recognized Israel’s right to exist. It also declared its readiness to negotiate with Israel for peace in return for the creation of an independent Palestinian state. In addition, it declared it would no longer use violence against Israel. But some PLO members continued to attack Israeli targets.
In 1991, the Soviet Union, long the main foreign supporter of anti-Israeli governments and the PLO, was dissolved. Thus, the Arabs found themselves with much less international support for their fight against Israel.
In 1993, Israel and the PLO, aided by Norway, began secret peace talks. As a result, the PLO and Israel signed an agreement in Washington, D.C., in September 1993. Under the agreement, the PLO again stated its recognition of Israel’s right to exist. Israel, in turn, recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people. It also promised to withdraw from part or all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and to consider allowing the creation of a Palestinian state in those lands. In 1994, as a first step, Israel gave the PLO control of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank city of Jericho. In 1995 and 1996, Israel gave the Palestinians control of most cities and towns of the West Bank. Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1994. Israel then continued to seek a treaty with Syria.
101. Huh? wrote:
I have a big problem with Jews justifying their hold on the land because it was mandated by ‘God’.
Peter asks: Where was it written anywhere that Israel’s claim on the land is mandated by God? The only people claiming that are some of the people posting on these threads. Either that or cite a link.
107. Greg London wrote:
Israel violated the ceasefire in November.
Peter responds: WRONG! Hamas broke the cease-fire and announced to the world they would before hand. Get your facts straight. Stop posting fantasies.
117. the simple truth asks:
-What came first? The OCCUPATION or the “terrorist”?
Peter replies: The terrorist. Somewhere around the 7th century. Tried to spread his rule and religion through terror and violence.
120. ah wrote:
I HAVE ONE COMMENT TO MAKE AND IT IS THAT WHEN A GROUP OR SOCIETY OR RACE OR IS UNDERMINED, NOT RECOGNIZED, AND TREATED AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, THEREFORE CREATES UPHEAVAL AND RESISTANCE.
Peter replies: And I have one comment to add to yours, ah. If that group or society or race CHOOSES to be treated like second class citizens in order to curry sympathy or favor for other more powerful groups and to appear the victim in everything they do, then it is their own fault, not that of the so-called oppressor. If the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank simply CHOOSE to go to work and make something of themselves and the land they do control, then they would be much better off than they now are. But instead they choose, key word, CHOOSE to play the victim card and incite violence against a nation that, were it given the choice, would much rather work WITH them in friendship and peace than have to constantly protect themselves and fight back.
“Peter asks: Where was it written anywhere that Israel’s claim on the land is mandated by God? The only people claiming that are some of the people posting on these threads. Either that or cite a link.”
I see that what I posted had “see Mandated Territory”, I’ve been pasting from the “1999 World Book”. Access to it can’t be obtained online without subscribing
Since the link was there, and if your interested, I’ll post what it has to say about it.
You can decide whether it was inspired by God, or not. Each to their own.
Mandated territory. After World War I ended in 1918, certain colonies and territories were taken from the defeated nations and placed under the administration of one or more of the victorious nations. These areas were called mandated territories. The League of Nations, a forerunner of the United Nations (UN), supervised the governing countries in the administration of the territories. The League expected the governing countries to improve living conditions in the territories, and to prepare the people for self-government.
Britain received mandates for Mesopotamia (later renamed Iraq); Tanganyika (now part of Tanzania); and Palestine. Palestine was later divided into Palestine and Transjordan (later renamed Jordan). France received Syria, which was later divided into Syria and Lebanon. Both Britain and France were given parts of the Cameroons and Togoland. Belgium received Ruanda-Urundi. Japan was given German islands in the North Pacific Ocean. Australia received German islands in the South Pacific, including the northeastern section of New Guinea and Nauru. New Zealand received Western Samoa, and the Union of South Africa (now called South Africa) got German Southwest Africa (now called Namibia).
The mandate system ended in 1947. By that time, several mandated territories, including Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, had become independent countries. The remaining territories, except Namibia, were placed under the stronger United Nations trusteeship system. The same countries continued to administer the territories, but they were under the control of the UN. Namibia became independent in 1990.
Contributor: Anthony D’Amato, Ph.D., Judd and Mary Morris Leighton Prof. of Law, Northwestern Univ. Law School.
To Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish:
You wrote (or copy-pasted) a very long essay.
Sorry I didn’t read it all, but I stopped after seeing how BIASED it was. You forgot to mention the killing of dosens of Jews in Hevron on 1929 for no reason. You didn’t mention the Arab raids on Jewish settlements during WW1 and after that. You certainly didn’t emphasize the amount of raids and terror attacks by the Arabs between 1936 and 1939 made on Jewish villages. You wrote : “The Arabs organized a general uprising that almost paralyzed Palestine during the late 1930’s”. They also massacred Jews all over.
You wrote : “Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900’s”. Well, that’s rewriting history … Christians controlled this land for a century (most the the 12th century). That sentence could have been “The only time Arabs controlled Palestine was for a short period in the 7th century”. After that Muslims from Tunisia, Bagdad, and the Ottoman Empire ruled the land, but not Arabs …
You “forgot” to mention the Peel conmmision in 1937, which offered a solution that largely preferred the Arab’s interests (Israel was to be a tiny state, about 1/5 of its pre-1967 size), and still the Jews accepted while the Arabs rejected its suggestions of a two state solution.
While that long comment of yours may seem impartial, it’s really biased.
Sorry, but I stopped around the late 30s. No point in reading on …
There are 22-something Arab states and one little Jewish state (with more than a million Arabs living in “Israel proper” — and the other half is a sweltering desert (would you like to live there).. So the Arabs have all this vast land and the Jewish people have one country of their own — and you want to divide it into unrealistic, dangerous slices……………Now tell me,,in all the honesty you can,, whom is being unfair to whom???
Thank you
107. Greg London wrote:
Israel violated the ceasefire in November.
Peter responds: WRONG! Hamas broke the cease-fire and announced to the world they would before hand. Get your facts straight. Stop posting fantasies.
facts:
Israel and Hamas reach an agreement in July. Hamas wanted more food shipped through Israel’s blockade. The mindless Hamas militants who cannot be reasoned with and only want death to israel somehow managed to agree to a truce in exchange for food to feed people struggling under a blockade.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=5336909
Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (a centre-right Israeli intelligence think tank) report “the escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement” occurred after Israel killed six Hamas members on November 4
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009110112723260741.html
The standard response from teh propagandists at this point is to essentially argue that Hamas wasn’t perfect therefore Israel was in its moral right to do whatever it wanted. And yet, Israel’s actions during this same time were less than stellar. Israel’s blockade has been condemned by multiple rights organizations as illegal and creating inhuman conditions in gaza. This blockade was still in place during the July-November ceasefire. ISrael called Egypt’s blockade of Israel in 1967 an act of war, and Israel is committing an act of war continuing its blockade during its “ceasefire” with Hamas.
Egypts ceasefire, which Hamas supported, offered a year long ceasefire in exchange for Israel withdrawing its invading army from Gaza and lifting the act of war that is the blockade. And Israel refuses. Israel would rather continue its act of war blockade, that any fool knows will only further radicalize gaza, rather than sign a treaty and make a single concession to its sworn enemy.
That’s what it comes down to. Hamas swore destruction of Israel. And in return Israel has sworn destruction of Hamas. Yet Hamas has been willing to honor ceasefires in the past and has offered a ceasefire recently. Israel violated the original ceasefire, Israel kept the blockade in place that could only damage the hopes of the ceasefire succeeding, and Israel refuses to engage in any ceasefire agreement now, enacting a “unilateral” ceasefire which is a fancy way of saying “we will do whatever we want”.
To Israeli (286):
Very honest commentary. I do not agree with everything you say, but I commend you!
Israel has, in the name of security, killed hundreds of Palestinians. Whether they were “valid targets” or not will forever be debated. I sympathize with Israel’s position, though I do wonder if it sometimes goes too far. Israel, as any state, has a right to defend itself. Of course, every defense has its limits. We can disagree on the details. Dissent is normal in any democracy (notice the lack of dissent in the Arab world?). I question the legitimacy of some of Israel’s acts. However, I do NOT question the legitimacy of Israel.
Many on the left imply that, given Israel’s acts, it has no right to exist. Curiously, there have been reprehensible governments in countries like Zimbabwe, Rwanda, or Serbia, but nobody questions the existence of these states, yet they question Israel. A condemnation of Israel becomes a condemnation its very existence, and of its people.
Palestinians as a group did not exist 60 years ago, but have since developed a collective identity. They should have the right to a homeland as well. The trouble is, their leaders won’t settle for partial sovereignty over Palestine, they want sovereignty over all of “Palestine,” which is incompatible with the existence of Israel. Hence, the push to create the impression Israel has no right to exist.
Israel is stuck in the difficult position of establishing secure borders, yet searching for peace. It has proven it cannot be militarily defeated (unless Iran exercises a nuclear option), it cannot be destroyed by suicide bombers or guerrilla tactics, nor will it be pressured by international “committees”. But could it do more to show it can cohabitate with the Palestinians as well?
Palestinians must open their eyes to the fact that there is no future in armed conflict. There will be no return to all of Palestine. If they made peace with the Israelis they could surely live much better than they do today, in cramped refugee camps. There will always be some who would rather see their children be killed as “martyrs” against the Jews, than to see them grow up and be happy. But there must also be those who would simply like to lead a normal life. The Arabs have done their part to squelch these hopes of normalcy. That is precisely why they have been kept in confinement camps for 60 years. If you had hope for a future, you would be less likely to kill yourself or your children as “martyrs” for the cause. I find it ironic, how Arabs criticize Israel for stifling the freedoms of mobility and employment of the Palestinians, when they do the same to the Palestinians living in refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.
If the Arabs cannot show the Palestinians hope, perhaps the Israelis could. However, the ongoing pressure tactics, such as the bombing and the economic blockade of Gaza, the encroaching West Bank settlers, and the constant harassment, with limited mobility and employment, only serve to perpetuate the image of Israel as an oppressive master that must be resisted.
Why have the Iraqis stopped their attacks against the Americans? They learned that, though they mistrust the Americans, what the Americans offered was ten times better than that which Al Qaeda offered. The Iraqi people chose the American plan. Israel must find the way to do the same.
Israel is stuck in a difficult situation where it must balance its security with the need to find peace with its neighbors. I understand Israel is willing to find peace (as it did with Egypt and Jordan), though some of its neighbors are not. Israel could do more to convince the people that the only way to live better is through peaceful cohabitation in a two-state solution.
To Greg:
Hamas honors cease fires so much as they can use them to consolidate their positions. If they were really interested in peace, why don’t they use the cease fire as a period of time to improve the lives of ordinary Palestinians, instead of as a time to smuggle more weapons into Gaza? The fact is, Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of Israel, it specifically bars any negotiations with Israel, as they will not advance the ultimate goal of dominance over all of Palestine. Cease fires are used by Hamas as simlpy a way to buy time.
I personally believe the economic blockade and the bombardment of Gaza are counterproductive to Israel, but hold Hamas as equally responsible for the terrible outcome of the past few weeks.
145. R asked:
And, Mr. Common Sense, when was the first Qassam rocket launched into a civilian area in Israel from Gaza? Was it after Israel had begun to truly strangle off Gaza’s economic development? Because I think it was…
Peter responds: No, the first rockets launched at Israel occurred almost the moment Israel pulled back from the Gaza in order to let the Arabs govern themselves and build a new quasi-nation. Instead, the Arabs immediately turned to launching weapons at the sovereign nation thet have vowed to wipe off the face of the Earth, thus causing Israel to impose sanctions, tighten borders, etc.
154. the rest of the WORLD wrote:
Brit, in an ideal world if 1 person died, 1 person would stand up and protest. if 100 pepople died, 100 people would stand up and protest. it’s very simple mathematics really.
Peter responds: It’s also a fantasy. You need to live in the real world.
Hi israel
You said the entity “palestine” was made up and that about 60 years ago there was nothing like palestinians,then what was that nation called in pre- conflict times and the inhabitants? Thank you.
158. Yusuf wrote:
For Mr. De Winter’s analogy to be correct, it must be explained that the neighbor who lives in our grandfather’s house controls when we can enter or leave our own house.
Peter responds: And for Yusef’s analogy to be correct, he must add that control of travel was only imposed when you tried firebombing your neighbor’s house, and why not touch on the fact that the rest of your neighbors on your street, the ones that hate the neighbor in your so-called grandfather’s house as much as you, won’t let you move out of the neighborhood or even live with them?
298 Chileno wrote
Hamas honors cease fires so much as they can use them to consolidate their positions.
Are you serious? So they are determined terrorists who will not relent in their attacks but if they do it is only to re-arm? Damned if the do and damned if they don’t. At least they can be trusted.
299 Peter the bubblehead. Very generous of Israel to “let the Arabs (sic) govern themselves”. A much nicer way of saying an illegal suppressive occupying force withdrew from another state.
Your Arab Grandfather’s house was my Great
Great GreatGrandfather’s house before your Arab Grandfather even dreamed of it. The Arabs – let’s not call them Palestinians because Palestinians only came to be 60 years or so ago – Arabs only got the House because they stole it when my Great Great Great Grandfather was sent out of his home in Palestine originally the land of Israel/Judea renamed by the Romans 2000 years ago as Palestine, and the Arabs rushed in from the desert and usurped all the lands and houses of the Jews. So sorry to say, that my Great Great GreatGrandfather was the first Owner of the House.
Israeli typed:
“Sorry, but I stopped around the late 30s. No point in reading on …”
I guess you’re right, I should throw my World Books in the fire.
In all respects though, I did say it was a brief overview.
What parts did you think were biased? The ones that weren’t there, or because they weren’t there?
Here’s a link that plagiarizes the World Book http://www.eylerz.net/brief_history.htm
It does mention the Peel and Woodard commissions of 1937.
The site also goes more in depth than points you brought up.
It leaves in that pesky statement about “during the A.D. 600’s, Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900’s.”
I myself thought it was a little off base, but I took at as a generalization.
Hi sylvie, what was the place called before the romans renamed it-as you claimed.Can you give me some references cos this is the first time i’m hearing this. Thank you.
210. the simple truth wrote:
you cant expect a few charities and prvate individuals alone to support a whole people. billions of dollars in aid are needed to feed and rebuild and support the palestinians.
Peter asks: And why shouldcharities, individuals, other countries be required to support these freeloaders? Why can’t the Arabs just get off their lazy, hate-filled @$$es and go to work building their own regions just as the forebearers of modern Israel did? The deserts didn’t bloom by power of imagination or wishes on magic genies. It took hard work, sweat and, in some cases, blood. Let the lazy Arabs do the same!
Delarosa;
It was called- shocker- Israel; In the year 70 (68 in traditional Judaism) the Roman empire conquered it and began expelling its inhabitants.About 100 years later, the remaining Jews revolted and the rebellion was crushed and more Jews were expelled.
The Romans wanted to erase any memory of Jewish settlement so they renamed the Country and localities- some of which survive until today.
here are some examples.
Palestine- named after the biblical Pelishtim,or Phillistenes who inhabitad a coastal area; the name Phillistine was corrupted to Palestine (Falestine in Arabic as they do not pronounce the “p”.
Nablus (naples)
Ceasaria (named for Ceasar);
Tiberius
240 This view
Your comments about africans portray you as a racist,what you are telling us is that africans have no right to express their views like everybody else,just because things happen in africa which also happens elsewhere.At least we all know the only country ever to have used atomic bombs in history, not once but twice.
228. Reds wrote:
Israeli supporters would just conveniently leave out the part where arabs were displaced from their homes…
Peter writes: And Red convieniently leaves out the Arabs were no more displaced than I was when I sold my house in NY. The only time the Arabs were FORCED away from land they occupied was when several Arab nations ganged up and attacked what they foolishly believed was a weak, newborn nation and got their @$$es handed to them for their troubles when Israel had to occupy the West Bank, Gaza and Sinai for their own protection.
georiehboy
Lets give California back to Mexico. Aren’t we an uninvited surppressive government?
247. Huh? wrote:
I’ve seen several people who say that if not for the Jews, the area would be a wasteland. How do you know that? Do you have some sort of alternate universe time-machine? Fact is, you don’t know.
Peter writes: How about just basing it on the fact that for the decades that Arabs did control the land, they did nothing with it? With the exception of a few cities, most of the population continued the nomadic existance they maintained since Arabs first appeared on the scene. And unlike most financial commercials, past performance is probably indiciative of future results in this case.
In a search for solutions to this conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians there are some that feel the window of time for a two-state solution has passed.
That being said, I came across this article in the Washington Post that offers the idea of a three-state option. It seems to address the problem from a different perspcective. Here’s the link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html
But would Egypt and Jordan show enough love for their fellow brothers, the Palestinians? Maybe with the two countries policing the West Bank and Gaza order might be restored. It would certainly relieve the pressure on Isreal to control the situation.
I’ve also heard that the Golan Heights could be an option.
All it takes is willing parties, and up until now and counting, some have showed no interest in solving the problem peacefully.
285. delarosa wrote:
You said iranians are not arabs,are they americans?
Peter replies: Even the Iranians do not call themselves Arabs, because they are not. They are (historically) Persians. (Thus the source of the name, The Persian Gulf.)
311. Oscar the Grump wrote (with sarcasm):
georiehboy
Lets give California back to Mexico. Aren’t we an uninvited surppressive government?
Peter writes: Careful, Oscar. That’s exactly what some hispanic groups are working toward. And not just California, but Arizona and New Mexico too.
Sorry Peter.
Peter
I just had another thought. If we gave back those states, they could be run just as well as Mexico runs everything. You know Tijuana and all.
Can’t we just give back east LA?
Re 304, Sylvie — Thanks for the succinct explanation of how to trace ownership. We must be cousins, since the same story holds for my great, great, great, great grandfather’s house. It’s still in the possession of our extended family. Even better, some of the posters on this site might like a short course in the law: by the rules of “adverse possession,” the Arabs of Gaza who now call themselves Palestinians have long since given up any right to this land. (You don’t have to be a lawyer to understand this rule: look it up! Here’s a link: http://definitions.uslegal.com/a/adverse-possession/ ) One could also go to the common law, more ancient than this, and simpler, to learn that “Possession is 9/10 of the law,” meaning that at law, the person who is not in possession of the items is the one who has to prove his right to them. If he can’t then the possessor remains in possession. It would seem that the Arabs of Gaza haven’t been able to do this.
So yammer on all you want about “Israeli occupation”: had Israel not kicked the butts of the Arabs who launched an all out war of aggression against them in 1967, and had the Arabs taken Israeli lands, would we have seen the Arabs giving those lands back, as the Israelis did in 2005? In your dreams!
To Delarosa 285 It would enhance your ability to form intelligent opinions if you took the time to check your facts before forming your opinions. (ditto for a lot of other posters on this site.) Iranians are NOT Arabs — in fact, many would be offended to be so typed. Iran is the modern name for the ancient country and empire of Persia. Iranians are aryans; they speak, for the most part Farsi, not Arabic; and their main relation to the Arab world is their practice of Islam, which began when they were conquered by Islamic/Arab invaders in the late 7th Century. Conquest is one of the main themes of Islam, by the way, in case you haven’t noticed. But why am I telling you this? If you didn’t learn about this in your high school or, worse, if you never learned anything except to memorize the Koran in your madrassah, then take the time to do the simplest research: ANYONE can check a few simple facts on Wikipedia. That source is far from perfect, but it’s at least a start!
“Peter writes: Careful, Oscar. That’s exactly what some hispanic groups are working toward. And not just California, but Arizona and New Mexico too.”
I believe the term is “Aztlan”.
Here’s a link with a little more explanation:
http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm
@85 Delarosa — Just one more thing: Iran is not an Arab country, and therefor NOT a member of the Arab League, comprised of 22 Arab countries, if you want to include “Palestine” which is actually not a country. Rather, it was Arafat’s terrorist PLO which was admitted to the League in 1976. And, while I won’t bother to repeat all the factual and important twists and turns in the sad fate of the Arabs who lived in the place the Byzantines named Palestine, and who might have had their own state in 1948 had they not so badly wanted to destroy the new state of Israel, it might be good to remind all the posters here of the essential topic of de Winters brilliant little fable about “Our Neighbor and Why we Have to Kill Him” None of the 22 countries in the Arab League really gives a hoot about the Palestinians or their fate. If they did, they would have helped them to peace and prosperity decades ago. Please note that Egypt was kicked out of the League in 1979 after signing a peace treaty with Israel. This is a bad neighborhood, and if you even speak with an Israeli, you are blackballed! The large land mass occupied by the countries of the Arab League and the 1 + billion Arabs who live there can’t afford to share an inch with their once-nomadic brethren who are now called Palestinians, and while they may not all want to see Israel erased from the map, they wouldn’t mind if someone else did the deed for them. Problem is, the Israelis, as mentioned before, are tougher, better-armed, smarter, and not lazy. They’ve buil a good life out there in the desert, they’ve gentrified the neighborhood, as it were: don’t expect to see them leaving anytime soon.
Thanks, but can we still give back east LA?
“Thanks, but can we still give back east LA?”
I imagine it would be possible, but it would still be there.
Georgiebhoy wrote: “Chileno wrote: Hamas honors cease fires so much as they can use them to consolidate their positions.” Are you serious? So they are determined terrorists who will not relent in their attacks but if they do it is only to re-arm?
YES! You finally understand the kind of group Hamas is. Let me quote from their charter:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it…”
“… the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
“The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”
If this was your organization’s raison d’etre, wouldn’t you spend every moment advancing your military struggle against Israel, including so-called cease fires? During the cease fire, Hamas was busy building tunnels to Egypt in order to smuggle better, more accurate rockets to fire deeper into Israel, the goal being to eventually strike large population centers, such as Tel Aviv.
Let me go on and quote Hamas’ Al-Aqsa television, where last year cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, “Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam…. I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them… [Rome will become] an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe.”
IF Hamas hasn’t killed many Jews it has not been for a lack of will, but simply for a lack of better weapons. It’s hard to negotiate peace with someone who openly calls for your people’s destruction. Quoting Golda Meir, former Israeli PM (kudos to Israeli for the quote!): “We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”
Chileno typed:
“Hamas was busy building tunnels to Egypt in order to smuggle better, more accurate rockets to fire deeper into Israel, the goal being to eventually strike large population centers, such as Tel Aviv.”
I saw that on the nightly news.
Leaves me scratching my head as to how Egyptian authority has allowed this to happen, if in fact they are not part of the problem.
Leads me to believe it’s not only Hamas involved in the desire for Israels’ demise.
(That’s not a news flash, just another day
tolerated at the office.)
This could actually make you feel sorry for the Muslims because they are so pathetic.
317. Oscar the Grump wrote:
Can’t we just give back east LA?
Peter writes: Personally, I would be willing to give them all of LA. But you know the saying. Give ‘em an inch…
Office- any prescribed religious service.
Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish
I read your article on Aztlan. Suddenly my jokes aren’t as funny. Thanks for the info.
Ref: 250…Sorry! My reference… Mathew: 26.53
Thank You!
“If this was your organization’s raison d’etre, wouldn’t you spend every moment advancing your military struggle against Israel, including so-called cease fires? During the cease fire, Hamas was busy building tunnels to Egypt in order to smuggle better, more accurate rockets to fire deeper into Israel, the goal being to eventually strike large population centers, such as Tel Aviv.”
And who is permitting the tunnels to reach Egypt? Have the Egyptians no authority to stop this?
You can say it’s for the Palistinians’ livelihood, but then why not open the boarder? They make up to $4000.00 a day off a tunnel. And they’re being payed by whom? More lucritive to go underground.
Doesn’t look too promising for Israeli/Palistinian peace, in the big picture. Especially after the recent military skirmish, tempers are still flaring.
More killing and condemnation appears to be on the horizon.
Really sad, the sacrifices, we as humans are called upon to endure, for the sake of the perversity of a few.
Sorry about the repost. It looked as if post 325 wasn’t going to posted. I came back to the site and it appeared to be deleted. Anyway, my post 329 is still awaiting moderation as I type this.
I give the moderator permission to delete it. If not, that’s okay too.
Let’s compare Israel and Hamas
Imagine two drivers barreling down a street. The first sees a boy playing on the road, swerves away, but still strikes and kills the child. This is Israel. The second driver also sees a boy playing. He smiles as he guns the engine, and rams the car into the child. This is Hamas. They have both killed a child, a reprehensible act for which they should be held accountable. But one committed manslaughter, the other committed murder. Hamas has not killed as many civilians as Israel, not for a lack of a will to do so, but for a lack of better weapons. Given Israel’s war machine, it could have killed thousands more civilians. They didn’t, not for a lack of weapons, but for a lack of a will to do so.
Intentional or not, the Palestinian civilians have suffered greatly. The killing of civilians by Israel is not welcomed. It is usually regretted, regarded as a mistake, and usually brings protests and calls for accountability. In Gaza, however, the killing of Jews by Hamas is seen as a victory, and usually brings cheers. Who holds them accountable? I do feel sorry for the misery the Palestinian people have suffered. But it’s hard to empathize with a people who show no remorse at their own acts of cruelty.
Israel’s objectives in Gaza may at times be suspect. But Hamas’ objectives are always clear: the destruction of Israel as well as the Jews. Israel’s actions, however reckless, respond to a desire to protect its citizens in Sderot, or any other Israeli town. Hamas’ actions respond to a desire to protect its military hardware, irrespective if this places its citizens in harms way. Israel has spent its resources in building a wealthy society. Hamas has spent what little resources it has into building a war machine. Israelis, like any in the West, promote hope for a future in their children. Hamas promotes children becoming “martyrs.”
In 2005, Israel pulled out of Gaza. Hamas would pull into Jerusalem. If Hamas laid down its weapons, there would be a chance for peace. If Israel laid down its weapons, there would be no chance for Israel. Because in the end, Israel goes to war, but would rather live in peace. Hamas would simply rather Israel die.
To Chileno
First of all thanks for all your long answers.
You certainly have more knowledge about the region and the conflict than most of the people around here.
You touch the heart of the problem – why the Palestinians are located in refugee camps for so many years, and what Israel can do to improve their lives. Well, the fatal mistake Israel obviously made in my opinion was not returning those territories to Jordan and Egypt on 1967 or shortly afterwards. Than again I was not alive myself at the time, and it’s very easy to judge it 40 years later. The P.L.O was established on 1963, and Israel experienced terror attacks on a weekly bases, fighting back once in a while. All those territories provided Israel with the ability to protect its largest cities simply by moving the border futher away. Those territories were (and in some areas like the Golan Heights still are) the buffer allowing us to take the battle away from the most populated areas if\when it begins.
But than Egypt REFUSED to take back Gaza on 1978. They knew what’s going on there and Sadat refused to get the responsibility over that small peace of land and all those miserable people. Had they agreed to take it, they could have formed a Palestinian state there, but than they would have been responsible for them as well …
Many Palestinians worked in Israel, and many Israelians went shopping in Gaza and the west bank until 1987, when the Palestinians started the first Intifada. I remember myself as a child going with my parents to several places in the west bank. You see, Israel provided work and improved the economic state of the Palestinians until they decided to revolt and attack Israel. Since than many things changed. Very few Jews would hire a Palestinian to work for them (less than a month ago, when the battles in Gaza began, an Arab working for over 15 years for a Jewish construction engineer stabbed him and three other workers and tried to escaped). The Palestinians want a country of their own, but their official currency is still the Israeli Shekel. They demand Israel leave but at the same time demand Israel improve their own lives and their economy.
So what can Israel do to improve the lives of Palestinians ath the current state of affairs ? I am sure that if we’ll have a few years of peace and quiet here than Israelis will go back to trade with them, go to eat in Palestinian restaurants, and hire Palestinians providing them both knowledge and work. While we are at war, though, I will never hire a Palestinian who might murder me tomorrow morning.
You wrote :
“If the Arabs cannot show the Palestinians hope, perhaps the Israelis could. However, the ongoing pressure tactics, such as the bombing and the economic blockade of Gaza, the encroaching West Bank settlers, and the constant harassment, with limited mobility and employment, only serve to perpetuate the image of Israel as an oppressive master that must be resisted.”
So after all I wrote before – I agree with you that the settlements in the west bank must be contained and stop growing, I have been saying that myself for years, and I have my own criticism on my country on that matter. However, as long as there are militant groups like the Islamic Jihad working both in Gaza and the west bank, smuggling rockets and arms, shooting at Israel whenever they can and send suicide bombers to kill dozens of people, I fully support the blockade, I fully support firing back at whoever fires at me, and I also fully support entering Palestinian territory and exploding a tunnel dug from the Palestinian side toward Israel as a preparation for an offensive action. That was actually what happened on Nov 4th, 2008. That was the action that others here claim that was a violation of the ceasefire. Israel sent armored vehicles to destroy a tunnel some 300 meters inside Gaza (a tunnel just like the one they used to kidnap Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier that is still a prisoner of Hamas, and that the red cross refuses to act on his matter), and the Palestinians started shooting at them. The IDF fired back and 6 ARMED Palestinians died. That was the Israeli breach of the agreement that I fully support – if you know that such a tunnel shall be used against you in a few days, than you cannot allow it to remain operative. The IDF did not go in blazing and firing – they sent an armoured tractor to destroy the tunnel …
You see, I can criticize my country, but you barely hear Plestinians saying they do not agree with the actions of Hamas. In Israel Arab parties that undermine the mere existence of Israel are allowed to take part in the Israeli parlament, but the penalty for criticising Hamas in Gaza is death – ask the Fatah supporters there …
301. delarosa:
Hi israel
You said the entity “palestine” was made up and that about 60 years ago there was nothing like palestinians,then what was that nation called in pre- conflict times and the inhabitants? Thank you.
Hi delarosa,
You already got part of the explanation, but I’d gladly sum it up for you.
Palestine, as was written before, was a name given to this region by the Romans in the second century. That name remained sicne then.
The people called Palestinians are actually Arabs from the region, but not necessarily from the land called Palestine.
The exact numbers are still in dispute and probably always will be, but the numbers I found show that there were approximately 200,000 Arabs in Palestine around 1870. about 70 years later there were 1.2M Arabs there. Many of them came from noadays Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. They came here looking for work as that land was growing rapidly with Jews coming in from Europe bringning advanced technology with them.
As for what those people were called – they were never called Palestinians. There was no such thing … They were Arabs like all the Arabs in the region, except they were living in historical Palestine. The British established Jordan and Iraq without any historical reference. That’s why some of their borders are straight lines …
To Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish
Two comments.
1. As for your comment #305, I didn’t say you should thow your World Books in the fire … I specifically said “You wrote (or copy-pasted) a very long essay”, I didn’t know where you took it from, or if you wrote it yourself.
I still think that this summary of events is biased. The events mentioned there are mostly one-sided and fail to give the neutral reader a balanced view (again, IMHO …).
2.As for your comment #325, you wrote : “Leaves me scratching my head as to how Egyptian authority has allowed this to happen, if in fact they are not part of the problem.”
That’s a very big mistake in a very subtle and delicate issue.
Egypt is involved in this situation more than anyone else.
Egypt controlled Gaza between 1949 and 1967. Egypt REFUSED to accept Gaza back on 1978 because it would have been a serious burden on Egypt to take care of the refugees there. They could have taken Gaza back from Israel in the peace settlement, and establish a Palestinian state there, but they chose not to do it. They chose to leave this problem to Israel to deal with, and wash their hands clean. They now (in 2009) know that this problem might blow up in their faces. On February 2008 Fatah supporters broke through the border with Egypt trying to escape from Hamas militants. Several dozens were shot dead while trying to escape.
Egypt must be part of the solution in Gaza, but they really don’t want to get too involved. In the last conflict in Gaza Egypt actually at least partly supported Israel blaming Hamas for what happened …
Israeli,
Maybe you can give me a better perspective on the tunnels that are being used to smuggle rockets into Palestine by Hamas.
On the nightly news last night, may have been NBC (I tend to switch back and forth during broadcasts), it showed a Palestinian youth digging and repairing a tunnel right out in the open, in Gaza.
Now what I want to know, when they are able to finish them and surface in Egypt, aren’t they easily spotted? And if so, is nothing being done to stop them from continuing?
Is Egyptian authority that weak that they dare not stand up to Hamas, or are they just turning a blind eye?
As for what I spammed out of the World Book, it was I who was making the statement, “I guess you’re right, I should throw them in the fire.” Didn’t claim you stated it. I can see how you interpreted it as me saying you were the one that told me to throw them in the fire.
Nevertheless, if you get a chance look at the link on 305, it is a little more detailed. It may subdue some of the bias you claim.
Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish,
First of all – a short comment about the World Book – I didn’t mean to insult you, and I obviously didn’t understand what you meant in the second comment. If I did insult you in any way – I apologize. Please let’s close that issue
To the best of my knowledge, many of the tunnels dug under the Egyptian-Gaza border are between the Egyptian part of the city of Rafah and the Palestinian part of the city.
There were several films released by the IDF showing some of those tunnels found by soldiers entering the city. In one of them I saw the tunnel starting at the kitchen of a home, under the sink. When the soldiers moved the cleaning material there, and moved the wooden plate they sat on, they found an entrance to such a tunnel. This is why it’s so hard to discover them.
One of the offers Israel made was to create a second border crossing, south of the Egyptian city of Rafah, that will make it impossible to get out of such a tunnel as you’ll be out in the open (and the tunnel will have to be 3-4 KM long). So far they rejected it.
There are tunnels that one of the sides is in the open and hidden by rocks or other things, but the large tunnels are usually between two built houses.
Here’s an example :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0nRu1L8Oto&feature=related
That one was made on Nov 2008, and it’s from the Israeli TV (so some might say it’s biased), but you can see the tunnels out in the open. If you watch the end of it, the reporter says that in the city of Rafah there are at least 100 tunnels, and the IDF cannot reach them except in a large scale operation.
ou can also take a look at :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBg8qUj_okU
The interesting thing in that video is to watch the secondary explosions. If you watch closely, you’ll see the missiles hit the ground, and since there are weapons hidden in those tunnels, you’ll see the secondary explosions which are actually greater than the original explosion …
There are many other videos – you can search youtube and find them.
You ask about Egypt’s interest. It’s a very complicated situation.
Mubarak, the Egyptian president, is in a very problematic position. The “Muslim Brotherhood” (you can read about them in wikipedia) are pretty strong in Egypt, and they demand that Egypt cancels the peace treaty with Israel. They are extrimists, but they are also very influencial in Cairo. While Mubarak may see the need for action against the tunnels, he is not at liberty to do whatever he wants without causing ritos inside Egypt.
As part of the disengagement plan on 2005 (when Israel left Gaza), the Philadelphi Route which is the southern border of Gaza was transfered to Egyptian control. The Egyptians did close the border above the ground (except for a couple of massive break-in by the Palestinians), but mostly closed their eyes regarding the tunnels, ignoring this problem. I read somewhere a few days ago that the Egyptians are likely to start acting in order to stop the smuggling of arms in Gaza from those tunnels, but I’ll believe it when I see it. As I mentioned before, the interests of the Egyptians are not that clear …
By the way – there’s another BIG problem hiding here that no one seems to address.
During the 1950s and 1960s (and actually until the revolution) Iran was on very good terms with Israel. Israelian engineers worked in Iran building facilities, aiding them in numerous aspects. My grandfather worked somewhere around Tehran for “Solel Bone”, a large Israeli construction company. I’ve seen pictures
Than came the revolution and you know what’s the status between Iran and Israel right now. We are now counting on the Egyptians to stop the rockets smuggling into Gaza. Since Egypt is not a democracy, we are actually counting on Mubarak to do the work for us. While right now he is partly cooperative, we might wake up tomorrow morning to a revolution in Egypt and to a large and powerful Islamic state right next to us, and we’ll be counting on them to sopt the shooting on us … Mubarak is not a young man, and after he’s gone it’s going to be a real mess there.
You see where I’m heading ? Israel could never be truly safe counting on others to provide safety for its citizens …
I hope that all Muslim would read this simple story that maybe somewhere, somehow in there minute minds there is a words that they can absorb that there militant brethren is in the wrong side public opinion, or maybe as we see it you need a mass brain therapy and advices you in your ritualistic prayer not to bang your head in the floor so you may not lose your logic of reasoning.
Not to throw oil on the fire but do Palestinians even qualify as refugees? Most are under the age of 40 and therefore were born in Gaza and the West Bank after the formation of Israel. Are they not therefore stateless with no right to entry into Israel?
Just a comment “Our Neighbor and why we have to Kill HIm”
There is now in Israel an influx of black Sudanese Moslems. They cross the border from Egypt into Israel for two reasons. One is economic, they want to work and earn a living. The other is protection. Israel seems to be the only country where they can go to and not fear Arabs. Their families have been murdered, raped, robbed and thrown off their ancestoral land by Sudanese Arabs. Mind you these are Moslems coming to Israel for protection from other Moslems. Israel on the other hand went out of its way to bring to a new home the unwanted black Jews of Ethiopia. Yet, I hear Israel being called racist and an aparthide state by whom, the Arab Moslems. Note the words used by Arabs to describe the Jews (Israelis): monkeys, pigs , racists, baby killers, nazis and the list goes on. Believe me, you don’t have to love your neighbor. You have to protect yourself from him. That’s why we have fences and walls.
Israeli,
IMO, I believe it’s not so much as other’s not being reliable for Israels’ safety. It’s more like, how to devise an effective strategy for diffusing pockets of peace breakers, while implementing it and maintaining peace.
From what you described about Egypt, an analogy can be made to it as being like the USA’s war on drugs, I suppose. Although there are those who are willing to combat it, there are still those in authority who are corrupt, perpetuating the problem further.
There doesn’t seem to be any reasoning with those bent on your destruction, though, short of war. Hence parts of America and some allies war against the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
Power shift is what a growing amount of countries and factions seek, away from the USA. It’s the style of leadership they are wanting to usher in, that so many oppose, but are weak or just passive toward the opposition’s will and determination.
I try to stay objective when looking at both sides of the Palestinian and Israel issue, with the objective meaning peace and harmony. It is difficult to defend one of the sides when the objective is not peace and harmony.
Knowing that throughout known history that each, in their own right, can lay claim to the territory they reside in, and what is done is reality in a “granted” civilized world. One has to side with those who are motvated by using peace for peace, as a means to an end. The dispute over territory then becomes a non-issue.
Sacrificing your life for what you believe in, once defined, takes alot of courage and a little insanity, or vice versa.
What lies before and beyond that, takes faith that you are right in doing so.
What exactly do you believe Hamas, and others with their mindset, depise about Jews? Is it Jewish influence they fear? Perhaps the loss of control leadership will appear to have lost, with Israels’ continued presence?
Do you think their followers just enjoy imposing their will upon others, not realizing that they are just pawns in a pyramid scheme of oppression?
others- did you do a switcheroo?
Oscar the Grump,
I thought you were joking, despite knowing about the implications of Aztlan.
Anyhow, it does seem to hold merit and is worth thinking twice about immigration from Mexico.
To Israeli:
Very thoughtful, and candid reply! You explain yourself well, and I can tell you are willing to find peaceful solution, yet are frustrated by the ongoing hostilities, and the lack of a serious partner in peace on the other side.
I understand many Israelis consider the expansion of the West Bank settlements a potential obstacle to a future peace accord. Why does the government continue to expand them? If a peace accord is ever reached, the most outlying settlements would likely have to be demolished (like in Sinai and Gaza), so why build them? Is it a political move to satisfy the religious parties? A need for cheap housing? Or is it simply because, given the lack of a credible partner to negotiate peace, there really is no impetus to prepare the road for a peace accord? They do give the impression the Israelis are slowly encroaching on the West Bank, and the news stories regarding some settlers harassing Palestinians don’t help Israel’s image.
I understand some territories bordering the Green Line will likely never be returned (though they could be compensated for). A buffering tract of land is justifiable, given that the Green Line is at some points only 15km from the coast!
I still feel the blockade of Gaza, and the security measures in place in the West Bank, besides causing undue grief on the Palestinians, could ultimately backfire on Israel. But I will concede that our difference of opinion is likely due to a difference in perception. Living in America, I do not feel the potential threats you feel in Israel, so I don’t sense the urgency for these security measures. It’s ironic how Palestinians, in using violence to protest their grievances, invite violence (and greater misery) upon themselves. Had they followed the path of Gandhi or Martin Luther King (who “resisted” the greatest Western powers) they may have gotten more concessions, with much less suffering.
I’ll tell you my interest in the region is very personal. Two of my dearest friends live in the Middle East: one in Tel Aviv, the other in Beirut. It’s interesting to hear the stories each tells me. At the same time, it’s heartbreaking for me to think it’s far easier for a message to travel from there to here in America, than between the two of them. I’ve always dreamed of driving from Tel Aviv to Beirut. Maybe someday in our future.
To atadoff:
You touch on an important point the MSM has ignored. The UNRWA (U.N. Relief and Works Agency) defines as Palestinian refugees all persons displaced from Palestine during the 1948 war, AND their descendants as well. This is the reason why the number of refugees, instead of shrinking, keeps growing. From the original 700,00, the number has blossomed to over 4 million. Arab nations, who use the refugees as political pawns, probably enjoy this fact, as the more suffering Palestinians, the more pressure on Israel. It’s disgusting how Arab nations criticize Israel for its treatment of the refugees, when they themselves deny citizenship and even basic rights such as freedom of movement, employment, and healthcare to thousands of Palestinians born and raised on Arab soil. They demand the refugees be granted a “Right of Return” to lands in Israel, when the vast majority of them have never set foot on these lands -ever! Most Palestinians have been living in a state of legal limbo for 60 years, as no state (other than Jordan) will give them citizenship. So much for Arab “brotherhood.” I made an analogy between their mistreatment and the treatment of Cuban refugees earlier in this thread (#230) you may want to check out. I also posted a long but interesting summary of information from Wikipedia regarding the treatment of Palestinian and Jewish refugees (#259).
Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish wrote: “What exactly do you believe Hamas, and others with their mindset, depise about Jews?”
It’s late at night, I may be out on a limb here, but hear me out:
What drives radicals to covet the land of Israel? They don’t just want land rights, they want SOVEREIGNTY. Why is it so important to assert Arab dominance on a tract of land they’ve never governed? Their hate goes beyond anger about losing their land. It’s a visceral reaction of fury against the Jews. It’s beyond envy or jealousy. It’s something deeper.
I believe it all goes back to the radical’s view of the world, and their place in it. For years, they’ve been taught by radical mullahs to believe they are superior. They despise what they consider the weak, decadent Western culture. Their god, Allah, is the ONLY God, and they are His people. Everyone else is an Infidel, somehow a lesser being than they, the True Believers, are. They even espouse lofty dreams of resurrecting the grand Muslim empires of yore, and finally overwhelming Europe. They call Spain by its Moorish name, “Al Andalus,” and recall how wonderful it was under Muslim rule.
Many ignorant, impoverished Arabs buy into this notion. It is, after all, easier to believe this beautiful fantasy than to face the harsh reality of the Arab Street. There is a chilling parallel here with the rise of Nazism in the 1930′s: a desperate, beaten down population is presented with a notion of past glories, of being a superior people, and are convinced that their destiny is to conquer the world to set it right.
This grandiose image, however, is shattered by the very existence of Israel. How could a group of infidels, the “sons of monkeys and pigs,” with their decadent culture, not only survive, but thrive in the heart of the Muslim world? How could Israel defeat time and again the attacks of multiple Arab armies? If the radicals are superior, and aspire to conquer the world, how come they can’t even conquer Israel?
Israel represents a crisis in the belief structure of a radical. The military and economic supremacy of Israel puts into question the radical notion of Muslim superiority. It forces the radical to think the unthinkable: that they may not be superior, that their god may not be the One God, that their whole life construct was based on lies. Hence the fury with which they fight, because Israel threatens the very foundations of their lives.
The only way the fantasy of superiority can persist is if the radicals reestablish dominance over the infidels. They must defeat the Jews. And to that end they will fight for as long as it takes. Their whole belief system depends on it. It is easier to fight on, than to accept they were wrong all along.
If the radicals had their way, they would gladly use a nuclear weapon against Israel. The land would be uninhabitable for decades if not centuries, and many Arabs would die as well. But the image of the superiority of Islam, the notion that nobody could ever defeat them, would live on.
Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish,
You asked :
“What exactly do you believe Hamas, and others with their mindset, depise about Jews? Is it Jewish influence they fear? Perhaps the loss of control leadership will appear to have lost, with Israels’ continued presence?
Do you think their followers just enjoy imposing their will upon others, not realizing that they are just pawns in a pyramid scheme of oppression?”
The answer is actually pretty simple. Hamas is a religious party. When you hear their leaders speak you understand exactly what they want. They are driven by Jihad. They will drive the infidels out (of Israel AND Europe), and with Allah’s help they will prevail. They will stop at nothing. Tahadya, or Hudna (or the dozens of other words which means ceasefire in Arabic) all mean the same thing – regruop and fight back.
For them it’s pretty simple – they will only agree to a ceasefire with you if you are much stronger, and it could only last for 10 years, no more. That’s because Muhammad, the last profit according to Islam, agreed to a cease fire with a strong tribe he fought when he realized he is going to lose. He agreed to a 10 years ceasefire. After 2 or 3 years he was strong enough to take on them, so he simply massacred them.
For Hamas – the ultimate destruction of Israel is the only target, but they are willing to wait until the power shifts at some point in the future … Till than they will fight small wars and end them in Hudna, or Tahadya, or another name that means the same thing.
On the other hand, most of the other Arab countries around us have reasonable leaders, at least partly non-religious. When I say reasonable – I mean reason you and I can understand. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon – have reasonable leaders. The problem is that all those countries also have religious groups who get stronger all the time and might at some point revolt. In Lebanon, it’s already happening. Hizballah practically controls all of south Lebanon, and they are now taking part in the elections on May. If they win, I’m afraid it’s going to be a real bloodbath up there in a couple of years … The only reason they settled for firing only several missiles toward Israel in the last conflict was for political reasons, nothing else …
I hope that answers your question, or at least give you some insights into how Israelis view Hamas …
Chileno,
The settlements on the west bank are likely to be an obstacle in the future. I agree. Like you said some territories around the green line are likely to switch sides (by the way, I am certain that if Israel agrees to transfer some cities of Israeli Arabs around the green line to the Palestinian Authority, they will object. Right now they define themselves as Palestinians, but if they’ll become part of the Palestinian Authority some of them will relocate into Israel).
Why my government acts that way ? I am not sure, and I don’t feel the need to defend it. I criticize my own government for doing so. There is natural growth of the population there that needs housing, and that’s one thing. The illegal settlements are the real problem. Once in a while the army and the police breaks into an illegal settlement with a judge’s warrant, and removes all the people there, but they are back there the next day rebuilding whatever the army destroyed.
As for the people – until the mid 80s it was idealism that drove people over there. Now it’s simply for financial reasons. It’s cheaper for Israelis to buy land and build a house there. For the same amount of money you get a small 3 rooms apartment in Tel-Aviv you can get a 6 rooms house with a large garden in a settlement …
You also have to understand that we have a bigger, similar problem within Israel itself.
Large parts of the Arab population here won’t pay taxes. They don’t ask for permits when building or expanding their homes – they simply do it. If the police tries to do anything they riot. If I decide to add a window in my home or a wall to “close” a porch (add the porch as an interior part of the house) without a permit, I will get sued and might go to jail. The Arabs in Israel are allowed to do practically whatever they want in those issues. So, when the army is sent to remove settlers from an illegal settlement, they scream (and they are right !) that there is injustice. It’s pretty complicated, and it’s an interior issue here, but it also has influence on the Palestinians, of course …
Sorry I can’t give you a better answer than that.
Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish,
Read Chileno’s comment #347.
It’s much better than mine
Chilano
So how does the UN differentiate between those people (and their decendants)who were living in Gaza and the West Bank before the war(s), and those who fled during the conflict(s). Surely these “original inhabitants” are not considered refugees. What percentage of the population are they? Or does UNRWA even make the distiction?
atadoff
I am not Chilano, but perhaps I can give you some useful information as well …
There are 1.4M people living in Gaza today, most of them children.
I saw somewhere (but I can’t find it now) that there were about 200K people there before 1948.
Obviously most of the children there are descendants of people who ran away from Israel during the independence war.
I am Jewish, and I am from Israel.
Three of my grandparents came from Europe around 1930. One of them, however, was 8th generation here. What does that make me ? Am I 10th generation in this land or 3rd generation ?
You see where I am going … ?
By the way, you may want ot read this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_the_Palestinian_Refugee_flight_of_1948
Especially the following interesting line :
“Since in those areas that eventually became the state of Israel there were according to the highest British estimate 561,000 Arabs (Oscar K. Rabinovich, 1959) some have suggested that because after the war there were 140,000 Arabs in the new state, the number of refugees therefore couldn’t have been greater than 420,000 (also see Dr. Pinner, Tel Aviv 1967).”
Hope it helps …
Israeli
Thanks for the info. I guess the point buried in my questions is that the “right of return” is impossible to enact justly or to anyones satisfaction.
Israel and Chileno,
Thanks for your summary of what you think Hamas despises about the Israelis. But what I was really wanting know, what, if any, do think the Israelis are doing to provoke hatred?
Could it be perhaps, deep rooted in a “my God is better than your God” syndrome? Or something else you can share?
“Israeli”
atadoff,
The “right of return” implemented on most of the descendants of the refugees would mean the immediate destruction of Israel.
Imagine over 4 million Arabs entering Israel and getting to vote. There are already around 1 million Arabs out of a population on 7 million. Many of the Arab families have 6,8 or even 10 children. Jewish families mostly have 2,3 children. The “right of return” could never be implemented while Israel still exists …
The biggest problem, as others wrote before and the article itself implies, is that 60 years later many of those refugees are still in camps and many of them are not trying to improve their lives.
354. Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish: Israel and Chileno, Jan 23, 2009 – 1:01 pm
Pajewmas wrote: what, if any, do think the Israelis are doing to provoke hatred?
Could it be perhaps, deep rooted in a “my God is better than your God” syndrome? Or something else you can share?” Absolutely NOT — the whole “My God is better than your God” syndrome, as you call it, is prertty much the exclusive property of Muslims and Christians. As far as I know, Jews have never attempted to proselytize — through preaching OR the sword. No crusades, no pogroms, no great sweeping military/religious campaigns (I think it was “by the sword” that Mohammed managed to “convert” so many to Islam, and conversion or eradication was the purpose of the Crusades . . ) Though the ignorant are constantly referring, erroneously, to Israel as a “theocracy,” it would seem to one of the few countries in that part of the world where you can practice your religion freely. (And I’m not so sure about Egypt!) Most of the 22 countries of the Arab League, all of which are Muslim, discriminate against those who aren’t Muslim. In some countries, it’s a crime to be anything but a Muslim. Actually, given the violence against Jews in Western Europe these days, it’s getting pretty hard to get into a synagogue without injury.
clairette,
How about if I re-worded it as, “God favors us more than he favors you” syndrome?
Do you think that’s exculsive to Moslems and Christians?
At the root of this, according to Tunisian Al-Afif Al-Akhdar, is the contrast-ridden and explosive mixture of a collective narcissistic wound and religious narcissism that has caused a collective mental paralysis.
This historic narcissistic wound is a perennial pernicious envy and frustration which makes its victim despise himself, a blow which makes him see himself as nothing. It is, according to Al-Afif, a symbolic castration that causes a crushing sense of shame and inferiority, the sense of which is ever present.
The religious media and education appear to provide an easy answer – since the Muslim has given up on Allah then Allah has given up on him. Therefore they must return to Allah, riding upon a belt of explosives.
The narcissistic wound leads to narcissistic rage, the results of which we have seen in the Islamists’ attitude to Israel, most lately in Gaza. They is in the grip of that narcissistic rage and cannot be reasoned with because it consumes them. In their rage, they are as likely to destroy what they want as what they hate.
Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish
In Israel about 15% of the Jews are religious. The rest celebrate Jewish holidays, perform only the basic Jewish traditions, but live non-religious daily lives. Many of them don’t believe in any God.
In most families, including my own, it was the Holocaust that changed that. Many very religious Jews stood paralized after the horrors of the Nazis and could not go on beiliving there is a God after what happened. After all, I am writing to you on Saturday morning …
Israel is run by non-religious Jews, and therefore the argument that “God favors us etc.” is not practical.
On the other hand, the percentage of very religious Palestinians must be very high (I don’t want to write a number because I really don’t have anything to base it on, but if turns out to be 80% I wouldn’t be surprised). Furthermore – inside Israel, the Muslims are becoming more and more religious. Lately a Muslim I work with who was practically non-religious started “acting religious” – wearing mroe religious cloth, saying more religious sentences etc. The religious Muslims parties are getting pretty strong lately in other countries around, including Egypt, and that’s bad news for all of us …
Israeli typed:
“In Israel about 15% of the Jews are religious. The rest celebrate Jewish holidays, perform only the basic Jewish traditions, but live non-religious daily lives. Many of them don’t believe in any God.”
What I was trying to find out with the “God favors us more than you” statement was; is the variation of God between the two ideololgies, not only now, but in the past relations, the the impetus of impediment for peace? And as MINTAGED commented, there are those that believe that, with the onus only on Islam. I think all in all rightfully so, but is there anything that can defuse the pattern of violence, peacefully?
As you stated, most of the Jews in Israel are not religious, but still go through the motions of being religious. That seems to still send a message of religiosity. Toning down God on the Judaism side and ratcheting it up on the Islamist side. Maybe mocking God is the problem?
Funny thing, I saw Benny Hinn trying to drum up support for Israels’ attack on Hamas. It wasn’t the support that was funny, it was where it was coming from. With current conditions, it looks as if war is inevitable. The Rabbi General was talking about having to force Islam into submission. And also, Iran was included in the rhetoric.
Two too many “the’s”
I went and googled one of the commentators with Benny Hinn. Dore Gold was his name.
I found him on this site:
http://www.onejerusalem.org/index.php
Doesn’t look like it receives much traffic, due to the amount of comments on the blogs.
We know from the beginning of time, from many centuries before the birth of Christ, the ownership of the land and changes that have occurred. The Biblical promises are to the children of Abraham (Abram) for which both children of Ishmail and the children of Isaac (Israel)are from, both serve the God of Abraham.
So lets try a different of approach one of simple mathmatical statistics, not every one shares the extremest views as the view described above.
So when we will our hearts be open to the suffering of people on an individual bases, not soley on the misguided agenda that caused the situation, for which we have no control.
Lets open our hearts to every soul in this world, Preach Love, Peace and Prosperity. Don’t let anything provoke you and react to anger with anger, but react with Love and affection.
Read this story from and Israil website about a Palestenian Doctor.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056198.html
What a great piece…Only one thing is missing:
“A few years ago one of my cousins made a comment. He said, ‘Why don’t we try a different approach to our neighbor? Let’s be kind to him, get to know him, see why he acts the way he does. Maybe he’ll start to see our perspective, and we can work out some sort of compromise with him. Our harassment and violence are getting us nothing–maybe we should try to live in peace with him?’ Of course my uncle jumped up and cut his throat right there at the dinner table. So we never even think of crazy ideas like that any more.”
With the campaign atheist are waging around the world, how likely do think giving up God will eventually eliminate wars and violence? And do you think Islam will be the most likely not to jump aboard this bus?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090119/lf_afp/lifestylebritainreligiontransportatheism
That should read on 366, “the least likely to jump”
JewishOdysseus,
Sounds like your uncle was a real “suicide” bummer.
To atadoff: Regarding the definition of a Palestinian refugee, this is what Wikipedia says:
“The UNRWA defines a Palestine refugee as a person “whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict”….UNRWA’s definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948[2] regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as refugee camps or in established, permanent communities.[3] This is a major exception to the normal definition of refugee. Descendants of Palestinian refugees under the authority of the UNRWA are the only group to be granted refugee status on that basis alone.[4] Based on this definition, the number of Palestine refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950[5] to over four million registered with the UN in 2002. ”
To Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish:You wrote: …”what, if any, do think the Israelis are doing to provoke hatred?”
Suffice it to say Palestinians truly believe the Jews are European immigrants stole their land. When they talk about “ending the occupation,” they’re usually not talking about Gaza and the West Bank, but of the “occupation” that began in 1948 with the creation of Israel. The mere presence of Israel humiliates them, and tarnishes their sacred honor. Certainly there have been excess committed on both sides. And there are things the Israelis could do better, such as in controlling the settlers. But any act of Palestinian violence is considered a valid act of resistance against the occupiers, while any Israeli action is more evidence of the Jews’ violent oppression. Hamas probably welcomes the tragic death of Palestinian civilians as yet another propaganda tool to show the West, and a new excuse to incite Palestinians into seeking revenge. As Charles Krauthammer said, “For Hamas, the only thing more prized than a dead Jew, is a dead Palestinian.”
To Israeli: Acting religious is not necessarily a bad thing, I do it all the time!
Just joking, I understand your point. Just wanted to clarify that religion itself is not detrimental, it’s when the fanatics take over that things get screwed up. We have that problem in Christianity as well! I believe even the Quran has rules of engagement, whereby you are forbidden to assault/kill an unarmed opponent. Of course, that part is conveniently ignored by fanatics. On the other hand, Israel gets some of its greatest support in the US from devout Evangelicals, who believe the rise of Israel is necessary for Christ’s second coming. Imagine that?
All in all, this has been a great thread. I’ll have to keep a copy of some of the comments here made, for future reference! Curiously, the anti-Israel crowd kind of fizzled away… Couldn’t take the heat?
358. Pajewmas tuba teakettle of fish wrote: How about if I re-worded it as, “God favors us more than he favors you” syndrome?
Do you think that’s exclusive to Moslems and Christians? Not really — but, metaphorically, the elephant in the middle of this query’s room, however you put it, is the historical notion of the Jews as “the chosen people.” I’m not sure how many Jews really feel “chosen,” and given the tragic history of the Jews, many might ask, as I often do, “What were we chosen FOR?” And, let’s keep in mind, that most Israelis are not at all religious.
369. Chileno: Thanks for the succinct report on UNRWA, details of which I wrote about in post 239. When you say about this thread, “Curiously, the anti-Israel crowd kind of fizzled away… Couldn’t take the heat?” you are probably noticing the effect of confronting passion and prejudice with FACT. There’s not much of this old “you are occupying my grandfather’s house” argument that will stand up to hard facts. And in any case, for those who were driven out of what is now Israel, as I said in Post 239, if everyone in the world who was displaced between 1930 and 1948 refused to accept that it is impossible to “go home again,” the entire world would be in flames, like Gaza. Only the Arabs who lived in the former Palestinian mandate (which was not then and never was an independent country governed by a people called “Palestinians”) are still “permanent refugees” This tragic fact can be laid at the door of the Arab countries (there are 22 of them!) who refused to take them in and who also refused to aid them in their misery, and also to UNRWA, which fostered the belief that life can, indeed, go backwards instead of forwards. With the Arabs looking eternally backwards, they have achieved economic, political and personal chaos; with the Israelis looking forward, in spite of the incessant attacks by their neighbors who wish them dead, they have achieved a vibrant modern society, economically and politically strong, productive and inventive. I never thought I would be able to return to the Paris apartment, nor did my parents and grandparents think they could or even wanted to return to their lost homes in Hungary and Poland. They learned new languages, forged new lives. As I said before, how unimaginable to think that my grandchildren in California are “refugees” from somewhere they have never even seen!
Thanks to all who have posted so intelligently on this thread. . .
clairette typed:
“What were we chosen FOR?”
I think it is very clear to the Christians.
I’m sorry if what I typed earlier caused a defensive reaction. What I was wanting know was, personally, if there could be changes in behavior that could help bring about peace? Besides the concessions that already have been tried.
Or do you think Islamist extremists have always been unwarrented in their hostility toward Israel?
On the other hand, do you believe blame can be shared by both? And sadly, there is no returning from crossing the threshold of mutual or unilateral bitter feelings. No hope for an understanding of each other, will never be trust, gave up peace, and war is the best way for a solution?
The same goes for Moslems who might read this. Also, have there been any concessions of land, besides Israel itself, for peace. I know Israel might be against the Golan Heights, because of the trust issue, but where