ObamaCare: The Devil Is Not in the Details
This has been the long, hot summer of ObamaCare. The president’s plan to change our health care system has led to ugly confrontations between ardent supporters and those who want no part of it. Repeatedly, arguments have broken out where opponents object to some provision and the president’s zealots retort that they’re lying or have been duped.
I would like to suggest that such arguments are beside the point. The specifics of the legislation are shifting and liable to change. What’s really important is the overall concept. We’re used to hearing that “the devil is in the details,” but in this instance, we should instead concentrate on the big picture.
Here is the big picture: Do we want a health care system that’s overwhelmingly political in nature? President Obama believes we need a system mainly directed by federal mandates and prohibitions. If he has his way, our already somewhat politicized system would become heavily politicized. Supposedly that would be in the public interest.
There are many Americans, however, who think that a heavily politicized health care system would be much worse. I’m among them. We believe, fundamentally, that systems of any kind that are dominated by politics do not do a good job of satisfying human needs. Whether it’s health care, food, housing, or anything else, government intrusion leads to increasing costs, declining quality, and the loss of freedom.
We get far better results from systems based on freedom and voluntary exchange. When individuals make decisions, they know their own circumstances and will either benefit from good choices or suffer the consequences of bad ones. That creates a strong incentive to make good choices and quickly change when you realize you’ve made a mistake.
When government officials make decisions, things are different. That’s mainly because there is only a weak feedback loop. Politicians may say they “feel our pain,” but they really don’t. They know almost nothing about individuals they represent and when they make bad decisions, they aren’t the ones who are harmed.
Even if a lot of voters complain, rarely is a politician voted out of office over some bill he supported. Besides, voting out a politician doesn’t repeal the damaging law.
To make matters worse, politicians tend to think short term (popularity at the next election) and are heavily influenced by special interest groups that know how to play the political system for favors. Therefore, the more politics intrudes, the more likely that average people will suffer from mistakes that are never corrected.
Here are some examples.
Public education. Our public education system is highly politicized. It’s very costly and yet produces remarkably poor results, with many students never graduating from high school; of those who do graduate, many have dismal basic skills in reading, writing, and math.
Housing market. Our housing market used to be free of politics, but within the last several decades politicians have intervened repeatedly to push their idea that home ownership is necessarily good and to undermine longstanding lending standards to accomplish that. The resulting housing bubble did enormous economic damage to the nation, thanks to political intrusion.
The Post Office. Since 1845, the Post Office has enjoyed a monopoly in delivering first-class mail, courtesy of politicians who didn’t like it losing money when it had competition. Prices keep rising rapidly and still the taxpayers have to make up huge annual deficits. Service can be slow and unreliable.
Communist nations. We can also see the effects of politicization by looking at whole nations. Under communism, which left little outside the realm of political control, most people experienced miserable goods and services across the board. Government officials constantly proclaimed that they worked only for the public good, not profit, but the results were so bad that people risked their lives to escape.
Now let’s look at some examples where politics plays little or no role.
Grocery shopping. Stores decide what items to offer and consumers buy what they want. The profit-and-loss system leads to variety, innovation, high-quality merchandise, and good service.
Personal education. When people want to learn about anything from home repairs to the history of the Byzantine Empire, they have available a wide array of books, recorded lecture sets, the internet, private tutors (e.g., music lessons, perhaps the freest market we still have), and more. Prices are low and consumer satisfaction is high.
I could go on and on, but I think the point is clear: the more anything is politicized, the less well it serves people. That’s why I dread ObamaCare. It will make something very important much more politicized. Whatever the details, it’s a move in the wrong direction.
Don’t misunderstand. I have no doubt that there are many devils lurking in the heavy stacks of paper that comprise the legislation. If people choose to dig into the pages and expose them, good.
But instead of trying to decide whether you’re for or against this on the basis of what some bill may or may not say on page 852, the easier way is just to ask if you believe that a highly politicized health care system will work better than other highly politicized systems we know about. I can see no reason to think it will.
Another great article.I really like this site.Keep up the good works. and THANKS
It really disturbs me that some “conservatives” are scrambling to find ways to reach a compromise with the National Socialists’ take over of medical care. Moves toward totalitarian control should be resisted completely. We must be pushing back the other way. Accommadating the progressive agenda has become a dangerous habit. Let’s hear more about the 10th Amendment and why the feds have not business forcing me to buy their medical insurance. McCain said he would fight for us. That must be after he first surrenders. He still can’t identify the enemy, that Obama is a clear and present danger. Retirement would look good on old John and a boatload of others like him. We are headed into serious times, the republic needs some serious representation.
I think the article makes a good point. However, confronting ObamaCare has been a process. First, there was the fact that no one had read the bill and Obama was insisting that it be passed pronto, read or not. Citizens(not including congress, Obama and the media) read the bill and didn’t like it. Congress, Obama and the media then denied what was in the bill. When that didn’t work all 3 declared that the bill really wasn’t a bill. Now that all 3 know that we know what is in the bill, that isn’t a bill, but had to be passed anyway, rightaway, we can move on to saying “No” to socialism.
Most politicians never think past the next election. We now have Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security – all programs that are unsustainable in the long run without massive tax increases to pay for their unfunded liabilities. Rather than considering real reform of any of these dinosaurs, politicians are looking to create even more unsustainable, excessively expensive programs, such as Obamacare and Cap’n Trade. Eventually, the house of cards will collapse of its own weight but until that happens, the politicians just look for some new program to tout when the public asks: What have you done for us lately?
Obama is the ring leader of a governing body that intends to force every man, woman and child in the United States of America to kneel before them.
If you want to know what the end results will look like, check out the hole in the ground where the World Trade Center used to be.
The big picture is simple. The deeper you dig into the details of what’s going on in Washington, DC right now; the bloodier the big picture gets.
Well, the hell you say? Why don’t we have to fight the specifics as well as the overall desire on the part of the NSDP to impose radical socialism on the populace? Of course the clowns in Congress didn’t read the bill. They didn’t read the “stimulus” package and they haven’t read “Cap & Trade,” either. Reading is hard on the brain, you know? It might cause one to think and/or understand. Not good for a NSDP politician to actually know and understand what [s]/he is voting for. So if those of us who are not followers of The 0ne must fight back it is important to use those tools of truth which are most effective. If that means citing single portions of an overall noxious bill, great! Informing the people is the most important thing we can do. Niceties be damned.
“When individuals make decisions, they know their own circumstances and will either benefit from good choices or suffer the consequences of bad ones. That creates a strong incentive to make good choices and quickly change when you realize you’ve made a mistake.”
But the reality is that many people DON’T want to make decisions. They want something simple and fast, something easy.
People don’t make decisions at grocery stores. They go for what they know. Buy the same brand over and over again. True shoppers read labels, compare ingredients and value. People think they don’t have the time to do comparisons and decisions. And repeated TV advertising subliminally guides those ‘decisions’. That’s what marketing is all about.
Legislators will make those health care decisions for us, they are the true shoppers. I hope they do their homework rationally.
We have to hammer our point away on BOTH the detail and the principle. While it would be nice if all Americans were interested in preserving our birthright. But the fact is, there are quite a few who are willing to sacrifice liberty and ideals for a little bit of free health care (and, assuredly, “a little bit” is all they’re going to get, if even that). For them, we need to explain, EXACTLY why this bill will screw them and their little ankle biters over.
If we truly believe this bill to be bad for America, we shouldn’t worry about running out of specifics. Nor should we be scared to get our boots muddy in order to show how craptastic the bill is.
However, I do agree that we need to start a heavy push – including buying advertising, pushing a three-part health care reform centered on tort reform, opening markets, and decoupling health care and employment.
I wouldn’t even mind (and I know this will be controversial here) having the law require employers to pass on what they would have spent on health care to the employee, for the first two years. Yes, I know it’s more government involvement, up front, but the tradeoff is less government involvement after the provision sunsets. And it hammers home the fact that the employees are already paying for health care – they just never see the money.
Legislators will make those health care decisions for us, they are the true shoppers. I hope they do their homework rationally.
This has to be the scariest thing you have posted in a comment (that I have taken the time to read) yet. I hope that someone with clearly superior intellect and motives, like you, is voted into the legislature in order to take care of us poor, uneducated folks who are incapable of making such important decisions on our own.
Has human history and nature been completely lost on you?
“That’s why I dread ObamaCare. It will make something very important much more politicized. Whatever the details, it’s a move in the wrong direction.”
Spot on! I received a letter from my private insurance with the opening sentence “year after year of increasing healthcare costs have made insurance reform a top priority for our new administration and the people of our country.”
It went on to inform me that my premiums were to be increased and my network had changed (had to find new doctors, what facilities I could use, etc.). What a mess!
Even though I’m not happy with my private insurance right now, I know what I’m experiencing would only be the tip of the iceberg under Obamacare.
Screw human history and nature. How about liberty?
Oh, and BasicMath, there’s a reason I call Obama the Godfather-in-Chief.
7. vivo. ”But the reality is that many people DON’T want to make decisions. They want something simple and fast, something easy.”
“I hope they do their homework rationally.”
Are you including the “Hope and Change” menagerie that was recently voted into office by the electorate?
What details? There are multiple plans out there and will have further amendments written into them at the last moments, guess pork, like every other massive bill. Details don’t persuade like fear and greed.
Opponents of socialized medicine would be wise to focus on the big picture, rather than the specifics of individual bills.
Yes, they’d better start doing that now that they’ve gotten the death camps, euthenasia, and mandatory Hitler position out of the bills.
Some form of this ObamaCare will become the rule, I have no doubt. Congress can not meet every year and not change, revise, or add another rule to be followed. Ever wonder why so many rules? How many rules are there currently and when will all this rule making come to an end. Got to have it now!!! Can’t make it if it is not done right now!!! Bull!!
George Leef I’m with you. Why, why is this even being considered??? With all the objections being brought up by so many with a brain, there is still this drive, we must have something, anything!! On they go!!!
I long for the day congress meets and some wise member(one of a very few) states “we have nothing to do, we have passed all the rules required, lets go home”!!
10. Kriska: ‘I received a letter from my private insurance with the opening sentence “year after year of increasing healthcare costs have made insurance reform a top priority for our new administration and the people of our country.” It went on to inform me that my premiums were to be increased and my network had changed (had to find new doctors, what facilities I could use, etc.). What a mess! Even though I’m not happy with my private insurance right now, I know what I’m experiencing would only be the tip of the iceberg under Obamacare.’
Oh, absolutely, Kriska. Who would want to change such a wonderful system. And, btw, keep watching your mailbox for future changes.
No senator or congressman should be re-elected if he has not read the bill. And for this particular bill in congress if it passes I will vote against every Democratic candidate who comes up for election. Whether it is for the school board, mayor, governor, congressman or senator. They need to get the picture that they can not keep doing this to us. If the Republicans did the same I would vote accordingly.
This time however, the Dems have the majority and the nuclear option and I will hold them accountable.
ObamaCare: The Devil Is Not in the Details
The Devil is in the theory underlying the Details.
Which is what this President is interested in, the power grab of so much (more) of the economic activity of the nation.
Which is why this President is unfamiliar with the Details of this or any other piece of legislation that he may sign.
And why can’t we pass legislation requiring one item one vote? That way it would be clear who is supporting what and our representatives would have much less wiggle room. Oh yeah, they draft the bills!
The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise.
Even if a lot of voters complain, rarely is a politician voted out of office over some bill he supported. Besides, voting out a politician doesn’t repeal the damaging law.
Hm. Proponents of the current health care reform proposal(s) have been noted by media as having been slain by the amount of in-person, on-site protesting done this year by opponents, a demographic that apparently has never been this openly known to do so in the past..
Election 2010 will be providing a definitive twist to your proffered “rarely” if H.R. 3200 perchance passes as is.. :WINK:
I agree with this column. It’s not a complicated issue. Would you rather be a citizen, or a subject?
(7)Vivo is a complete airhead. Hope and change my a**.
Oh, absolutely, Kriska. Who would want to change such a wonderful system. And, btw, keep watching your mailbox for future changes.
bibio44, you’re not being very honest about the issue. It’s a rare animal who doesn’t want to reform the health care system. The only question is how. The current bill is not Health Care Reform, it is ONE possible option for reform. Likewise, to oppose the bill is not to oppose reform.
That said, as bad as our current system is, the current bill will be even worse. You don’t have to support the status-quo to recognize that, yes, there ARE changes for the worse, and this is one of them.
No senator or congressman should be re-elected if he has not read the bill.
Actually, jimpres, I have to disagree on the count of one exception. I can see a legislator opposing any bill that takes seven times as much real estate as the National Defense Act of 1947, just on general principle.
The Big Picture…
The last time a socialist tried to make this many sweeping changes to the Republic was when FDR’s so-called “New Deal” succeeded in exacerbating and prolonging the Great Depression by almost a decade.
Not only is this failure now part of FDR’s legacy, but even in his own time he was slapped down hard by the Supreme Court, and much of his program was repealed because it was unconstitutional – including his National “Recovery” Act.
What was FDR’s response? He tried to pack the Supreme Court with additional justices sympathetic to socialism. His attempt resulted in a monumental and humiliating failure that has been all but completely airbrushed from the U.S. History taught in our government-controlled, “public option” schools.
This has been the legacy of socialists in American for over 70 years: When you lose, cheat; if you cheat and still lose, hide the evidence.
Since FDR’s time, those who know better have compromised endlessly with socialists, to the ongoing detriment of the Republic. They thought the left was compromising in good faith. We now see that this is utter nonsense. As America has become more socialist over the past 70-odd years, so have we become more disliked and despised, more feared, more blamed, more corrupt, more open to attack from without, more conflicted within, deeper in debt and, generally, more ignorant as a nation. In short, nascent socialism is slowly turning America into an also-ran no different from any of the culturally stagnant and demographically declining nations it destroyed across the Atlantic, and which now lie prostrate under the thumb of the EU.
Go back and look at the historical record. There is absolutely no evidence to be found that government is competent to handle a facet of society as complex and critical as providing health care for all 300-million-plus American citizens… to say nothing of the millions of illegal aliens. There’s a reason for this. As FDR learned, the hard way: it’s not in their job description.
Dear Mr. Leef
It must be nice to be naive enough to say: the market knows best as you do. Yes, we witnessed that in the financial markets; thank you very much. I guess you are also fond of the insurance companies, rejecting patients with pre existing conditions. Or cutting loose those who have cost them way too much (by their standards). You probably believe that it is healthy that such corporations should then use the excess booty they skim to sway our venal politicians over to their side so they can bilk us even more. I suppose those of us who are not employees of some large corporation, or are self employed have no rights to affordable care. The pool we are from is too small to be lucrative and hence we deserve no health care.
There has to be some protection for the consumers.
I find your views too partial to deserve a serious consideration.
Petrous
9. SteveInNJ: “This has to be the scariest thing you have posted in a comment (that I have taken the time to read) yet. I hope that someone with clearly superior intellect and motives, like you, is voted into the legislature in order to take care of us poor, uneducated folks who are incapable of making such important decisions on our own.
Has human history and nature been completely lost on you?”
Um, we live in a representative Democracy in which we vote for people to make important decisions on our behalf.
Has junior high school civics been completely lost on you?
http://www.omahacityweekly.com/article/2009/08/27/web-exclusive-map-quest-town-hall
At a town hall meeting, Ben Nelson (D-NE) and found that the health care protesters actually aren’t all that informed about public policy. He asked 40 pro-reform and 40 anti-reform attendees to locate Iraq on a map. The results:
A full 75%, 30 of 40 pro-reform attendees, could identify Iraq in its rather eye-catching, dead center position on the map. Only 52.5 %, 21 of 40 anti-reformers could do so.
More telling was the startling reactions he got while conducting the test. Pro-reform people, even those geographically challenged few who laughed out loud at the futility of the task before them, portrayed a uniformly agreeable front. Most gave a knowing, touch_-like nod and smile. I received no negative comments, none at all, from that group.
The same could not be said of the other camp. Far from it.
Many sneered. Most at least glowered. Four accused the test itself of being somehow biased.
One anti-reform Vietnam veteran also responded, “Why the hell should I care where Iraq is?”
Durrrr.
Victor, we’ve got sitting Congresscritters, e.g., Silvestre Reyes (D-Tx) who can’t tell you the difference between Shiite & Sunni. And Silvestre is “…Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the primary Committee in the U.S. House of Representatives charged with the oversight of the United States Intelligence Community”
We’ve got other Congresscritters (e.g. John Conyers, D-MI) who openly admit they won’t read HR3200 ’cause they wouldn’t understand it anyway (without 2 days and 2 lawyers interpreting it for him)
And then there’s Nancy Pelosi who seems permanently stuck on stupid.
I wonder how informed Ben Nelson is on the particulars of HR3200. The townhalls I’ve seen haven’t really shown much depth on the part of many members of Congress who are supposed to be answering questions for critics.
Anyway, whatever this poll is supposed to prove, what you write would lead one to conclude Nelson had asked the question.
He didn’t, the newspaper/news writer did.
12. Mr Lucky:
“7. vivo. ”But the reality is that many people DON’T want to make decisions. They want something simple and fast, something easy.”
“I hope they do their homework rationally.”
Are you including the “Hope and Change” menagerie that was recently voted into office by the electorate?”
Of course.
What a shame to see this reduced to politics.
Sure those of us in the ‘biz’ have a lot to say. But few of us are saying it. We gave up a long time ago.
We know that we are pawns in corporate or government dreams. We see the waste of what really happens.
Now y’all have got this into an us vs. them fight at any cost battle over stuff that doesn’t matter much in the real world where choices are made in real time.
We missed a golden opportunity to talk about the real issues.
How many CT scans and at how much cost in radiation or contrast risk? Why are we far over the real benefit of more Diagnostic Breast imaging and procedure? No unusual thing for me to see a woman whom has 4 negative breast biopsies over the last 5 years getting ‘the best medical care in the world’. Yep her survival stats are solid.
How can we benefit people by working closer together instead of what is being driven now in terms of how many RVU’s you generated this month?
Please, Republicans and Democrats. You dont belong here. We need help but this doesnt work for us.
Most medics just want to know the parameters so we can work within that. So tell us, what do you want and expect?
I think not much more than you are getting. You and I relate much better on the human basic level.
Let us declare Obamacare dead. Now we can talk about what really matters.
Spindok
#24 Ken wrote:
“That said, as bad as our current system is, the current bill will be even worse. You don’t have to support the status-quo to recognize that, yes, there ARE changes for the worse, and this is one of them.”
Thanks! That was the point I was trying to make about being the “tip of the iceberg”.
YES, changes need to be made (tort reform, deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, vary state by state,,)because the system isn’t perfect by any means, but for the moment I still have some choices. Under Obamacare I would have NONE!
TO: All
RE: Heh
WHO IS this ‘fool’?
I get the distinct impression, after reading enough of the article to recognize someone who is a ‘babe in the woods’, this character has no clue on how government works.
How do you think that the government gains control of matters? Saying, outright, we’re going to govern your life-care from here on in and you have nothing to say about it?
No. It does it by enumerating odds and ends in the details of the law that make is so they CAN ‘govern your life-care from here on in and you have nothing to say about it’.
Sakes!
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth is coming out....]
Wonder why the Democraps and Obama are in PANIC MODE?
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 57% would vote to replace the entire Congress and start all over again.
Today, 70% of those not affiliated with either major party would vote to replace all of the elected politicians in the House and Senate.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/august_2009/57_would_like_to_replace_entire_congress
OBAMA PANIC!
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Seventy percent (70%) of likely voters now favor a government that offers fewer services and imposes lower taxes over one that provides more services with higher taxes, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/america_s_best_days
OBAMA PANIC!
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Experts see double-digit Dem losses
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26393.html
OBAMA AND DEMS PANIC!
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Overall, 46% of voters say they at least somewhat approve of the President’s performance. That’s the lowest level of total approval yet measured for Obama. Fifty-three percent (53%) now disapprove. Eighty-one percent (81%) of Democrats approve while 83% of Republicans disapprove. As for those not affiliated with either major party, 66% disapprove.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
OBAMA PANIC!
=====================================
I’ll wait to celebrate when Obama hell-care is completely dead and socialist-Obama himself gets kicked out, very soon, on his ass. There is no end to voters’ realization that Obama’s REPUGNANT policies STINK. Obama’s lack of experience and his childish ideas betray his faux demeanor.
When Obamaites are encountered, REALIZE, by what they say and do, who they are; and, be very careful to know your facts. If so, Obama’s socialist “reforms” will die. There is no room in America for the ideas we’ve been taught to fight — socialism, fascism, communist and, snake oil salesmen.
This is the sole argument. If you perceive a problem with our health care system, it is the fault of the Federal government. I have been in medicine for over 30 years and have seen the changes and watched the cost go up. All secondary to Federal policy formed by both parties. The cost of care and your insurance is the direct result of the fact that neither Medicare or Medicaid pay their bills, in fact they don’t even come close. So the cost is passed on down the line and is thus a secondary tax on you. Futher, many personel are hired to review the charges to the government by both the doctor, hospital and the government that create a system most are not aware of but doubles the cost of care. Then there is the malpractice issue and the cost it adds. None of this is addressed in the legislation. The answer is for the government to get out of health care and out of our lives.
GUSTAV:
YOU ARE WRONG, this is most certainly NOT a representative democracy it IS a Republic. There is a distinct differene between the two. It is YOU that requires a refresher course at the most basic level.
Prediction: Health care reform will pass and it will pass with a strong public option. This is necessary to keep the private health insurance crime syndicate honest. The fact of the matter is however, this back and forth about the proper way to reform our health care delivery system isn’t about policy differences the Republicans have with Democrats. It’s about killing the most surefire means the Democrats have of securing political majorities for perhaps the next generation–bringing real, substantive healthcare reform–health security–to the American people. The prospect has Republicans terrified, and Democrats need to recognize that. They need to steamroll the GOP. This is one defeat that will hurt them real bad. I’m not the vindictive type but I want to see these corporate concubines pummeled.
AdrianS (#34), Rasmussen is well known for putting his thumb on the scale when conducting polls. You guys live by the twenty-four hour news cycle and you can stay there for your short term buzz. Democrats think long term. Even if they were to sustain losses at the midterm, and that wouldn’t be unusual for the party that holds the White House, it is far better for them to do so with something under their belt. It would be a major legislative accomplishment and a major defeat for the GOP of epic proportions. Once health care reform with teeth passes you won’t be able to pry that vote out of the recipients of health care reform largess with a crow bar. You guys are scared, really scared.
The truly disgusting combination of strawman arguments and a complete lack of any economic understanding by our leftist trolls here is mind numbing. The conservative mainstream does not hold the position that we should do nothing. Pushing that meme is typical political pap from the left and a complete lie.
Second, if you think that creating yet another massively inefficient, politicized government welfare program is anything other than a recipe for disaster, you are a fool. It crushes innovation and does nothing to create incentives for better personal decisions. Without that, rationing is the only way to make it work and we see that creating misery for millions in other countries just as it will here.
There are ways to approach this problem without repeating all the same mistakes of the past. But as long as we have these naive fools trying to delude themselves that massive government control is the answer, things are going to continue to get worse.
Arrrggghh!
The Big Picture? How about the Constitutionality of it all?
Stop fighting this on the details and fight it on Constitutional grounds. The Democrats can’t possibly claim Obamacare or any manifestation thereof is Constitutional. If they claim otherwise publicly challenge them on it. Go on offense!
If we can’t or won’t draw a Constitutional line in the sand here and now then ultimately we are finished. Progressivism will resume its inexorable march forward. It may have been stalled for a decade or more but it won’t stop until we kill it by demanding ultimate fealty to the Constitution starting with passage of the Enumerated Powers Act which, the Democrats won’t even allow to come to the floor for a vote.
“In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.” – Thomas Jefferson
“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence (OBAMACARE – mine), the money of their constituents.” – James Madison
It’s too bad that Dave (#39) views providing health care and welfare as synonymous. Countries like France, for instance, provide a superior benefit at a far better cost. They have a system of both public and private entities. We could only be so lucky as to get a system like the one in France, or even Germany (Canada and the UK are grossly inferior to these systems). French citizens get excellent benefits. They live longer and are healthier for less money! Anyone who would be against having such a system must have something to lose if the system we have here is thrown out. The days of spa vacations and caviar dreams for the shareholders of private health insurance companies on the backs of hard working American families are OVER (maybe Dave is a shareholder). But, see for yourself, the French system was rated #1 by the World Health Organization.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273
38. Praetorian:
Read the Constitution. Obamacare doesn’t fall within the enumerated powers of the federal government.
I don’t understand the hostility you socialists have toward the business community. Who will your next target be? The retirement industry?
Copied and pasted from my facebook page:
I have an idea: Since the liberals/leftists want to have a socialized, universal health care system, why don’t they organize a giant trust by which needy people can get insurance for themselves free of charge? Donations to the trust could be made by those leftists willing to donate and those donations would be tax deductible. Folks needing insurance could apply and demonstrate their financial neediness to get help.
It would keep government out of the whole healthcare issue.
They could name this new, private entity “Socialized Health Insurance Trust”, or “SHIT” for short. With a little help from “SHIT” people with preexisting conditions such as irresponsibility, laziness, stupidity, or drug addiction could be given all the medical care they need, and apparently, deserve.
This sort of plan wouldn’t be a huge additional burden on the deficit.
All it would require is that the do-gooders to put their money where their mouths are.
But we all know that the leftists wouldn’t donate nearly enough to the trust to support the lazy and shiftless.
I suppose, in that instance, that people who applied for the free help would be “SHIT out of luck.”
Furthermore, I’d like to think that there would be a substantial social stigma for being so screwed-up that somebody would be willing to try to get help from “SHIT.”
And that’s how I feel about it!
TO: All
RE: Fools!
They’re everywhere.
If Praetorian thinks that private health insurance companies are criminal syndicates. He’s not paying attention to the high crime on Capital Hill.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Crime doesn't pay....as well as politics.]
TO: Eric, et al.
RE: Understanding
It’s because business is competition for socialist government.
Look at what Lenin and Stalin did to the small business and land holders after THEY came into power……HERE.
Notice the ‘liquidation’…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
TO: All
RE: [OT] An Observation
Anyone get the idea that ‘Praetorian’ thinks along imperial lines? With himself as the imperial ‘guard’?
We’re talking REAL self-identification, here.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[He walks as if balancing the family tree on his nose.]
Its very telling that our leftist friends want to turn the US into France. France is fine for the French. WE are not French. They live under the burden of a massive welfare state with huge unemployment, innovation crushing structural and economic rigidity, and quite frankly (pun intended), I have no desire to live as a serf to the state as they do. Oh, by the way, the French system is going broke and the French people are having a hissy fit over even basic co-pays. They are also starting to see the rationing and decline in availability of specialists as is the problem with other socialized medicine countries. The dependence on the state to take care of their basic needs is now a permanent part of the French culture and something we should avoid if we value our freedom.
Again, we can find better ways to do this. The public option is absolutely the wrong idea.
If you perceive a problem with our health care system, it is the fault of the Federal government. I have been in medicine for over 30 years and have seen the changes and watched the cost go up.
Absolutely David (#35), your observations exactly parallel my own.
And the notion of government interference being the cause of something shooting craps isn’t limited to medicine. We can expand the idea to most areas of human endeavor, education, business etc.
Examples are myriad and convoluted.
Quite astonishing that many seem to want more federal government interference & regulation.
“the definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior, expecting a different result”
How many CT scans and at how much cost in radiation or contrast risk? Why are we far over the real benefit of more Diagnostic Breast imaging and procedure? No unusual thing for me to see a woman whom has 4 negative breast biopsies over the last 5 years getting ‘the best medical care in the world’. Yep her survival stats are solid.
Well, Spindok, if your point here is that so called “high level” medical treatment today leaves a lot (a whole lot !) to be desired in terms of worth & value, I heartily agree with that.
Many doctors seem to be heavily invested in things like that RVU thing you mention, jamming as many patients as possible into the hour, getting paid by insurance cos., reams of paperwork seeking payment for Medicare/Caid, even exploiting those systems…
…while notions of medicine as Art as in the Hippocratic Oath seem to have flown out the window.
All the things that Dave said in his post (#47) can be said in terms of what is happening here. No we are not France, and no one has claimed that the health care system in France is without its problems. The article that I posted the link to indicated that. That said, the French system is STILL BETTER. Dave says that the French system is going broke. Well, the system we have in place is not sustainable in its current form and it will crash and burn. At any rate, the French system is superior to ours and that is demonstrated by the result, which is longer and healthier lives. How could he be against that! Moreover, the claims Dave makes about the economies of France are without basis. They are pulling out of the recession according to Fox News. The public option is the way to go and we will fight for it. Bye the way, Dave lives as a serf right now. He carries water for those who could care less if he drops dead. You see, the private health insurance crime syndicate does not care about your health. They care about profit. Their only function is to take in more money in premiums than they pay out in claims. They answer to shareholders, not patients and doctors. We’re going to change this.
The link for my post #50
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539305,00.html
#43. John, that’s great. In addition, there are those who want the illegal aliens to have health insurance and tuition so they can take up spaces in school that our kids deserve. We should randomly assign an illegal immigrant to each of those people so they can salve their consciences by using their own money to solve that problem.
Praetorian, #37, #38, #41, etc.
Nice try. However, manifest evidence of a great opposition to Obama’s health care plan send you to the corner with the dunce hat. For the benefit of Praetorian and those in Linda Vista, Praetorian is wrong.
Obamacare is less popular now than Hillarycare was at the same stage and looks very likely to become a tremendous failure for Obama.
For the terminally deluded, from the NYT
…Long-term care constitutes a difficult and expensive challenge in any health system. But the American patchwork, full of cracks through which people fall, has a special problem with medical expenses of all kinds bankrupting couples.
A study reported in The American Journal of Medicine this month found that 62 percent of American bankruptcies are linked to medical bills. These medical bankruptcies had increased nearly 50 percent in just six years. Astonishingly, 78 percent of these people actually had health insurance, but the gaps and inadequacies left them unprotected when they were hit by devastating bills.
M. still helps her husband and, quietly, continues to live with him and care for him. But she worries that the authorities will come after her if they realize that they divorced not because of irreconcilable differences but because of irreconcilable medical bills. There were awkward questions from friends who saw the divorce announcement in the newspaper.
“It’s just crazy,” she said. “It twists people like pretzels.”
The existing system doesn’t just break up families, it also costs lives. A 2004 study by the Institute of Medicine, a branch of the National Academy of Sciences, found that lack of health insurance causes 18,000 unnecessary deaths a year. That’s one person slipping through the cracks and dying every half an hour.
In short, it’s a good bet that our existing dysfunctional health system knocks off far more people than an army of “death panels” could — even if they existed, worked 24/7 and got around in a fleet of black helicopters.
So, for those of you inclined to believe the worst about President Obama, think it through. Suppose he is indeed a secret, foreign-born Muslim agent who is scheming to undermine American family values while killing off as many grandmothers as possible.
If all that were true, why on earth would he be trying so hard to reform our health care system? We already know how to prod families into divorce and take a life unnecessarily every 30 minutes — all we need to do is reject reform and stick with exactly what we have.
and for the those totally in denial, from a someone close to the action
…but I work in a primary care doctor’s office, and her statements about health care are simply untrue! Under the government-run health plan, Medicare, patients choose their own doctors, hospitals, labs, dialysis centers, etc. In contrast, those insured under private insurance have little choice. The private insurers even stipulate what medications that doctors can prescribe for their subscribers. Further, the private insurers deny care when patients are ill. We have to petition the private insurers to agree to treatments that their subscribers need. We get denials all of the time. Talk about death panels! It is proven that stress is bad for our health. Imagine being sick with a life-threatening illness and then having to deal with the stress of fighting with your health insurer to cover your care! Imagine doing that when you are in your 70s or 80s! I deal with these issues on a daily basis for patients who have dropped Medicare and have private insurance. Private insurers also pay primary care doctors less than Medicare-some up to 50% less! A health insurance corporation’s job is to maximize profits for its shareholders, they can do that best by rationing and restricting coverage to their subscribers. That is not in the best interest of a patient’s health!
Praetorian (you astroturfing shill)
You see, the POLITICAL crime syndicate does not care about your health. They care about profit. Their only function is to take in more money in TAXES AND BRIBES than they pay out in claims. They answer to UNIONS AND OTHER CORRUPT ENTERPRISES, not patients and doctors.