ObamaCare and the ‘R’ Word
As House members and senators drift back from the August recess with the shouts of angry constituents still ringing in their ears, they face a knock-down, drag-out fight over the fate of health care reform. And while conservatives may take pride in the outpouring of public opposition to a government-run health care program, they shouldn’t take comfort. The future of American health care and control of 17 percent of the economy may be determined by a procedural sleight of hand and an anonymous bureaucrat.
How could this be? Well, earlier this year Senate Democrats pushed through reconciliation instructions in the budget. Although Senate Budget Chair Kent Conrad objected, he was in fact the decisive vote to bring out of committee and to the floor for passage a federal budget with a set of instructions that now could control the health care debate.
A Senate aide describes reconciliation as “a partisan process rigged in favor of the majority.” It works as follows: The Democratic Senate leadership would at some point make a decision to use reconciliation rather than the normal lawmaking process to pass health care. The budget instructions would come to the floor and together with the proposed health care bill go to Senate Parliamentarian Alan Frumin. Appointed by both parties after then-Majority Leader Trent Lott fired his predecessor, he is supposedly a neutral arbitrator of the Senate rules, but simple survival dictates that his rulings will generally favor the majority.
Frumin’s job will be to determine if the health care proposal meets the reconciliation rules and specifically the Byrd Rule, which requires that only items germane to the budget be included in the reconciliation process. Would a public option meet the test? Would empowering a Medicare board to control costs? Those and hundreds of other queries will be Frumin’s calls.
Once Frumin agrees that the health care plan in conformity with Senate rules, the bill would go to the calendar and to the floor. Remarkably, that will be in all likelihood the first time the Republicans even see the bill, which is likely to be another thousand-page tome.
The debate on the future of America’s health care then would be limited to just twenty hours. No filibuster is allowed. At the end of the debate, a series of votes on proposed amendments would take place, culminating in a simple majority vote — an unprecedented process on a hugely important piece of legislation. If Frumin finds any portion of the bill to violate the Byrd Rule, that ruling could still be overridden and the provision at issue could then be passed with 60 votes.
Numerous questions remain. For example, could the Republicans filibuster some other piece of legislation in order to shut down the Senate and preempt the reconciliation process? A Senate budget guru points out that given the Senate calendar, that would likely entail a spending bill, meaning the Republicans would be threatening to shut down (at least a part) of the government. With memories of the disastrous face-off with Bill Clinton still vivid for many Republicans, that option doesn’t seem very attractive or likely.
Never happen!
The Democrats now realize if they push this thing through,
Obamas presidency is over.
He is already hovering at 45-50 percent unapproved.
Daily KOS has him at 55.
They also know they will lose 15-20 seats,
Harry Reid is going down hard in 2010-
“WE HAVE WON”..
Trolls,
Liberals,
and Lefties can just muck on it.
It is over-
Bambie only has one place to run.
In baseball/softball it is called ‘center’ field.
He will govern from the center or he will no longer govern.
“Lying back in my computer chair smiling,
smoking a cigar,
thinking about Bill Clinton.”
The odds are no more than 20% in favor of the highly controversial reconciliation option becoming reality. The purple and red state elected officials are fearful of enraging their voters. They don’t dare jump on this bandwagon. It’s for losers only. Who cares what Barack Obama wants? He’s already a marginalized figure in Washington, DC. We simply must keep up the pressure. Obama burned his bridges with white middle-of-the-road voters during the “Skip” Gates affair. He blew their doors off when he employed the race card. These people thought that the election of Obama would put an end to this nonsense. They will never again trust him.
If the dems are stupid enough to try and jam this health bill mess down our throats by force there is going to be revolution in the air.
“The more practical question is would Democrats, faced with Obama’s collapsing approval numbers and a precipitous drop in support for government-run health care, really try this stunt?”
Does the pope wear a funny hat?
“He will be president of 35 percent of the country — and good luck getting anything done after that.”
Done.
Unfortunately, 0bama still thinks he is too big to fail.
What a lovely, libtarded mess. -And, wtf about the economy, Dohbie Bro?
Aside from changing the rules during the middle of the game, this would effectively kill the filibuster. But like the Kennedy succession farce, how long would it take Democrats to insist on the vitality of the fillubuster once they again found themselves in the minority?
With their willingness to cheat on such naked display, how will they adjust themselves to losing an election? Can we expect Obama to try to amend the Constitution to permit him to serve more than 2 terms? Or worse, will he follow the examples of his simpaticos Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and Manuel Zelaya in Honduras and seek (or in Zelaya’s case, attempt) to make himself President for life?
If Senate Democrats use this procedural sleight-of-hand to ram health care “reform” through, I believe it will lead to massive voter retaliation. Many in Congress would face expulsion next year.
It would nationalize the 2010 election, making dozens of Democratic Representatives (along with a good many Senators, 1/3 of whom also face reelection) vulnerable.
But that would be cold comfort. Because it would also mean that America would be saddled with a questionable changes to its health-care system. It would also mean that the camel had, indeed, succeeded in slipping its nose under the tent.
Because it would then only be a matter of time before larger, more crippling, changes could (and would) be instituted: Some via subsequent legislation; some via executive order.
And it would also, I fear, lead to nothing less than socialized medicine — and the governmental takeover of (yet another) private U.S. industry.
#3 erik of dale:
If the dems are stupid enough to try and jam this health bill mess down our throats by force there is going to be revolution in the air.
Erik, there already is revolution in the air.
Furthermore, given the likelihood of Reid’s defeat in the next election, he may opt for being remembered as the senator who pushed through ObamaCare — regardless of how hated the legislation is by most Republicans, Independents and, most importantly, the people. Let’s not forget that nearly every politician in America does not begin to live-up to John Adams’ view that “because power corrupts, society’s demands for moral authority and character increase as the importance of the position increases.” Today’s power-mad politicians are unresponsive to their constituents and sociopathic. Moreover, if we consider men like Adams, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, and George Washington to be “patriots,” how can any right-thinking person use that word in reference to Ted Kennedy? It doesn’t make any sense, but neither does the country we once thought of as a Constitutional Republic.
Mark
I find it hard to believe that the Deomocrats would resort to reconciliation. When HB3200 gets to the Senate it will be less popular than it is today, unless it is substantially amended. The more sentient members of the Senate majority are going to realize that this is cryptonite and that it is not worth the political capital to employ reconciliation which will effectively shut down the Senate for other legislation. The minority in the Senate can employ procedural tactics requiring bills to be read prior to voting and effectively close the place for business. The remaining comity that currently exists would be gone for the foreseeable future.
The Democrats are more likely to regroup and try to fix HB 3200 than employ reconciliation to suspend Senate rules and ram the bill through. If they would listen to the minority, they would realize they could neutralize much of the opposition to the bill by changing a number of items that are offending voters. That is more likely than saddling their members with the consequences of the use of reconciliation.
If the Dems do force this legislation upon the American people they will pay a terrible price for it. They will forfit their majority in Congress and it will be a long time before Americans trust them with majority status again. They may not even survive in their present form.
On the other hand, Americans will award the Republicans huge majorities and demand a repeal of Obamacare. Obama will almost certainly be a one-term President and his replacement will cheerfully sign the repeal.
Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi will go down in history as the authors of their party’s virtual destruction.
So, do you want reconciliation or do you NOT want reconciliation? You can’t make up your minds whether it would be the worst thing or the best thing. Reagan and Bush used it liberally. I’m guessing you’re all fine with that. This is the problem with being out of power – you’re left with only outrage and rationalizations, as illustrated in these “real’ and “informed” Americans.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/01/protester-holds-up-copy-o_n_274611.html
Healthcare will pass, a bit stunted but it will pass. The economy will continue to improve. End games will be in place for Iraq/Afghanistan. And by this time next year, Obama will still be president, and Dems will still enjoy majorities in the House and the Senate. I know you don’t like that. And I know you know I don’t care that you don’t like that.
President Obama is turning up the propaganda with so-called specific talking points about his bill; however, I do not trust Obama. Obama is going to try to force this terrible legislation through to as a lesson in ego, yet all I see is a sure way to destroy his administration from within as he acts like a spoiled brat instead of POTUS.
The Democrats cannot use reconciliation without destroying the Democratic Party. The public will revolt & throw them out; Obama’s other legislation will come to a halt & his administration will be stagnated the next 3 years. President Obama will assure himself to be a failed 1 term President as a result of his power grab. The people will demand Obamacare to be repealed. And the Democratic Party will be locked out of power for the several years. Their voices will not be heard given the Democrats readiness to betray Americans on a dime.
On the other hand, Americans will award the Republicans huge majorities and demand a repeal of Obamacare.
The danger for Obama and the Democrats is that a GOP-majority House of Representatives can launch investigations into the administration. I believe the administration wants to pull out all the stops for the 2012 election, using the full power of the federal government to try to ensure its own success in the election (e.g., dropping the Black Panthers voter intimidation case, firing IGs investigating Obama supporters, unleashing government employee unions on individuals, folding the Census under direct control of the White House, ‘investigating’ major GOP donors, etc.). If, however, the House at least is GOP-dominated, it will be harder for him to consolidate power in the White House and apply extra-legal or unethical forms of intimidation on his political opponents (including, I believe, everyday citizens, as we’ve seen already with the Orwellian appeals to report ‘fishy’ thoughtcrimes).
And, of course, any and all items on his legislative agenda will be dead in the water.
Beware a ridiculed, marginalized narcissist. They want to lash out at any who refuse to recognize their wonderfulness — it’s just a part of the personality profile, and as predictable as the sunrise. When that narcissist is the President, however, it’s the American people against whom he will be lashing out. I believe Obama views criticism of his administration as ‘white’ and automatically unfair, and therefore not legitimate. Thus he thinks he’ll be justified in putting the American people (whitey) ‘in their place’, Reverand Wright / Saul Alinsky / Chicago style. To him it’s just a fairly administered form of reparations.
Don’t let up; God & Alinsky know Obama won’t.
Seizing control of health care is the fulcrum in the socialist strategy here in America. That’s why it was tackled first. With that, the left can effectively rule this country for as long as they like, since any and all human liberties can be regulated, restricted, governed, mandated, rescinded, legislated, abridged, infringed or postponed in the interests of reducing the “cost” of health care. (For anyone still wondering, this is one of the biggest reasons why the short list of the federal government’s enumerated powers does NOT include the authority to legislate on individual health or run an insurance operation hedged by Taxpayers’ money.)
So this legislation is far too important to allow it to go without passage in the strongest form possible. And the corporatist junta now in control of our federal government and two of our economy’s most critical sectors has demonstrated it will take any action necessary to do that. Reconciliation is a perfect choice because few Americans are even aware of it, let alone understand it. The media will ensure this remains the case.
Brooks is thinking with the “old rules” here. He doesn’t understand Alinsky OR liberal fascism. Rather than warn against it, Brooks actually explains why this path will be attractive to the Corporatist-in-Chief:
“If Obama agrees to use reconciliation, he will permanently affix himself to the liberal wing of his party and permanently alienate independents. He will be president of 35 percent of the country — and good luck getting anything done after that.”
Here’s a tip, Davey – BHO is ALREADY permanently affixed to the liberal wing of his party. With the most liberal voting record in the Senate, he had that going for him the day he announced his candidacy (where the hell were you? asleep)? And contrary to your miscalculation, Davey, BHO is president of only about 30% of eligible voters. That means he’s ALREADY president of less than 20% of the country, which includes those not eligible to vote like visa holders, illegals, young people, etc. This is clearly demonstrated in his plummeting approval and approval / polarization indices.
Much of that 20% is his vanguard – the unhinged left, media sycophants, SEIU and OFA hardliners already wedded to the cause – who will form his squadristi and keep dissenters in line by shouting them down if possible and beating them down if necessary. This has already been demonstrated. It’s not simple speculation.
BHO’s approval has been in a long, remarkably consistent swan dive since the day he took office. It affects his decision-making not one tiny bit. This is not a politician concerned with public approval or leadership. He’s been raised since birth to understand the mob and coercion, and aside from the largest increase in government spending in all of human history, that’s all we’ve seen come out of this administration.
An ideologue who’s already chosen the path of violent revolution he was raised to worship, and who is already supported by the most brazen collection of lying, Fifth Column media shills in U.S. History isn’t going to be swayed by the negative press reconciliation might bring. Reid and Pelosi have already made their choices. If there are any quasi-statesmen in Congress or the Senate, they may still quash this power grab. If so, it will be the first time we’ve seen them pop their heads up at all.
Even a mouse when cornered will put up a heck of a fight. The stealth president will have to either double down, go all in, or parlay part of a reform which can build to a larger package later. Ego is the chips on the table as his inner circle and organizers still wave the flag of the “Mandate of November.” Big (translate as radical) changes were promised for some sacrifice and that sacrifice list is long. This reminds me of what they said about Nixon: “He will defend (now spend) you to the last drop of your blood.” Reconciliation is a big step to facism.
13. goy:
“BHO is president of only about 30% of eligible voters. That means he’s ALREADY president of less than 20% of the country”
Whew! Close call on that election, eh? Amazing how he could win with just 20% supporting him. You might want to revist you datum manipulatus. (That invoice come in yet?)
“The future of American health care and control of 17 percent of the economy may be determined by a procedural sleight of hand and an anonymous bureaucrat.”
Medicare and Medicaid currently comprise 35% and 11% of health care spending. Or about 8% of the economy.
The public option is expected to be about 10% of health care spending. So you can add another 1.7 %. So we will near 10% of the economy under ObamaCare versus 8% today.
That is your first lie.
The second lie is that passing it under a the reconciliation process is somehow out of the ordinary.
See Bush Tax cuts, in 2001, 2003, and 2005.
That’s 2 lies and I’ve only read the title and the first paragraph. Well done.
On the bright side if the left uses Reconciliation to pass this then in 2012 when Repubs have control of all three branch’s of government we can then get rid of it and substitute real Health care reform, as well as a private option in social security reform. All with just 51 votes in the Senate.
It will set the precidence.
There is real anger and fear out there.
At work, at the soccer field, at church, the one thing I hear over and over again is, “Why won’t they listen to us?”
Let the liberals have no delusions, these people aren’t ignorant right wing Nazi kooks.
I hearing this in San Francisco!
If the Democrats try to use the reconcilliation process to pass Obamacare, I guarantee our nation will explode.
A Senate aide describes reconciliation as “a partisan process rigged in favor of the majority.”
Is it just me or does that sound like a description of democracy in general?
Seriously though, the division of American politics down hyper-partisan lines is going to cause reconciliation to be used more and more often unless Senate rules are changed. Filibuster used to be considered the weapon of last resort for a minority that couldn’t tolerate a piece of legislation. Now, it gets threatened on virtually every bill that comes to the Senate. The effect is to give the minority almost as much power as the majority in the shaping of legislation, which doesn’t seem terribly democratic to me. Democrats abused the filibuster before 2006 and now Republicans are repaying the favor.
You can’t always get what you want. It’s a statement with wide application.
To socialize this country, the Boy King needs to pass certain legislation, eg, Stimulus One, Cap and Trade, install socialist judges, bring into the government socialistic and communistic thinkers and planners like Mark Lloyd whose life goal is to kill free speech.
Obama calls them Czars. (The communist language kind of gives their purpose away, wouldn’t you say?)
In the Socializing process, it would help if Obama were able to control another 17 % of the economy.
This is, of course, where single payer, Socialized Medicine rears its ugly head.
We need no reminding to know that Obama has pretty much devoted the month of August to jamming Socialized Medicine down our throats.
First his pitch was to provide medical insurance to 44 million uninsured illegal aliens and various groups of people.
When that appeal rang hallow, Obama backpedaled. Now he’s started to say he wants to give Americans a choice with regard to medical insurance coverage. Keep the medical coverage they have or turn to socialized medicine to be covered.
He lies.
This isn’t really a choice because it’s a choice with a time limit. Obama knows that, given time, socialized medicine, like PacMan, can be used to kill off private medical insurance carriers.
But there’s a fly in the ointment.
The people that do the working and the tax paying, and the war fighting and the dying in this nation don’t want it. And the parents of the American warriors don’t want it.
Most slackers like the idea because they like living off the government dole.
After all is said and done, though, Socialized medicine is a mine field; little disasters just waiting to happen.
It would greatly reduce the quality of medicine most Americans receive.
Necessary procedures, especially expensive ones, especially for senior citizens would be rationed.
Or done away with completely. Which is just the tip of the iceberg.
So why would Congress vote for a Socialized Medicine bill? First because it would put a lot more money at their disposal. Create bureaucrats like crumbs attract ants.
What’s more, Congress would continue to be covered under a private plan. In other words, if it’s not good enough for Congress why does Congress think it’s good enough for the rest of us?
The answer. Congress cares most about themselves. Their Lear jets. Their lavish lifestyles. They’ve got a nice gig and they’re not stupid in the sense they don’t want to give any of their perks away.
So some smart Obama procedural lawyers figured out a way to pass socialized medicine, bypassing the usual process, a procedure called reconciliation.
But even for Congress, it would prove to be a tough pill to swallow.
A metaphor to explain the choice they face.
It’s like if somebody’s in prison and they want to get out. In fact, they’ll do just about anything to get out.
So they find a pill that effectively fakes their death. But the pill is only about 70% effective. Chances are high the pill that causes the prisoner’s body to fake death will actually cause the death.
If Democrats use the poison reconciliation pill to pass what amounts to single payer, socialized medicine, for many the jig, or more painfully for them, the gig it up.
Among the side effects, it’ll kill their chances of being re-elected. Even if Obama fashions some kind of emergency event that temporarily rallies the country around the President.
Even if that happens, the American voting public will be so incensed at Obama and his hench-people, most if not all will be voted out or booted out of office Italian style.
If he tries to declare some kind of unique national emergency that, in Obama’s judgment, justifies a new constitutional amendment that pushes the next election back for three or four years, the armed members of the population along with the national guard and our militia will likely lead Obama out of the White House in shiny metal handcuffs, along with all of his closest cohorts.
No, you can’t always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you deserve.
Fantom:
On the bright side if the left uses Reconciliation to pass this then in 2012 when Repubs have control of all three branch’s of government we can then get rid of it and substitute real Health care reform, as well as a private option in social security reform. All with just 51 votes in the Senate.
It will set the precidence.
_______________________________________________________________
Congratulations, Fantom.
Finally a winger gets it. It’s kinda sorta, you know, exactly why we have elections.
And the precedent has already been set. The reconciliation process has been used many times.
NOW AND THEN AND JHARP: Me thinks the populace is beginning to realize that they elected a man with all the vision and moral clarity of a guy who got his start turning tricks for a slumlord. Servicing his slumlord pimp and sugar daddy…
You see ‘goy’ thats why he calls himself Now and THEN because he has difficulty in distinguishing how it was THEN when the Obamanation supported by his Black Racists and foolish uniformed white and Hispanic voters won the election and NOW when thank God some Americans are waking up to the huge mistake they have made., Fools like Now and Then of course are impossible to educate and will never wake from their self induced daze they will forever stay in their moonbat ‘libtard’ blind, gullible, emotional, hysterical Obamanation worship state.
Subject: Second-grade math for previously-pwned trolls
Activity: Word problem – basic multiplication and division for civics
# in 2008 voter turnout: ~132,618,580
% duped into voting for an inexperienced racist: 52.9%
# individuals now ruled by said inexperienced racist: ~314,000,000*
132,618,580 x .529 / 314,000,000 x 100% = _______?
————————————————–
*including visa holders, refugees, young, asylees, illegals, trolls
Remember to work from left to right.
Remember to show your work for at least partial credit.
answer key for trolls: 22.3%
#23 Goy
The math makes sense but what’s your point? That elections are determined by the people who bother to show up?
goy,
Still trying to come to grips with Obama’s landslide win?
The only number that matters is 365. That’d be the electoral votes cast for Obama. Versus McCain’s 173.
It wasn’t even close.
Obama could have spotted McCain New York, California, and Iowa. And still won.
And the fact that he’s black with the name Hussein Obama, ouch, that’s gotta hurt.
Get over it. The American people have spoken. You lost. Were rejected.
And we all know elections have consequences. Bring on the reconciliation process! Obama Care here we come!
Zer0:
#23 Goy
“The math makes sense but what’s your point?”
Goy has no point. He’s simply whining about his losses.
By the way goy, why don’t you run your math on the 2000 and 2004 elections?
And quit yer whining.
#23 Goy
I ran the math on the 1984 election, which Reagan won in the biggest landslide in modern history.
Votes Cast: 92,653,233
% for Reagan: 58.8
US Population 235,824,902
(92,653,233 * 0.588) / 235,824,902 = .231
So 23.1% of the American people voted for Reagan and he won 49 out of 50 states. I’m not trying to pick a fight but your math is meaningless, dude.
Whole Foods stock is down 5% today. What a shame.
I think this is the first sign the teabaggers have not picked up the slack after Whole Foods lost it’s more wealthy and more educated progressive shoppers. Maybe it’s time for another Mackey op ed bashing Obama Care.
On Obama Care.
* Votes for seats held by GOP filibuster supporters: 44.2 million
* Votes for seats held by Dems who may filibuster: 2.5 million
* Votes for seats held by Dems who would support cloture: 79.8 million
Or in other words nearly twice as many people voted for senators likely to support a cloture motion than voted for a senator who is likely to thwart health care reform with a filibuster.
And you bozos somehow believe there is some kind of problem using the reconciliation process to pass Obama Care.
On what planet do you spend most of your time?
There will be much unrest this Fall-maybe a little Swine flu to distract the masses? Once again the gender challenged trolls squeal out the same old stuff. . . .How long will soros keep paying you clowns?I hope we can hold out till the 2012 elections. . . Was this moderate enough for you monitors?I hope I didnt offend anyone. . . .like I really care.
Poor jharp, still stuck in his time warp. Pretending it’s still January, and ignoring Obambi’s record plummet in public estimation. Pretending that his kook leftist fringe actually represents more than a tiny fraction of the populace, and never, ever admitting to himself that Obama ‘won’ in principal part by bamboozling the great American electoral center into believing he was a moderate (!!). The American people will never *knowingly* subject themselves to lefty moonbattery- they have to be duped. Problem is, no imposture can go unexposed forever.
Well, the Hopium buzz has worn off. The people have awakened with a pounding hangover in bed with a major two-bagger- yes, it’s the coyote ugly scenario. Guess what, denial-boy: self-identified conservatives now outnumber liberals in all 50 states. Put that in your electoral map and smoke it.
Get over it, harpy. You won last November, but you’ve lost now.
JHARP:Still no brave words defending your street trick of a messiah? Can’t muster a syllable in his defense when confronted with the specter of his past as cork boy for the slumlord? All that money that got pushed his way for his working that street up and down, back and forth?
@25. Zer0: – The math makes sense but what’s your point? … I’m not trying to pick a fight but your math is meaningless, dude.
Hello? Here’s a novel thought: why not try actually reading Jennifer’s article, “dude”?
If the math is “meaningless”, please write Brooks an email explaining that not only is his 35% number wrong but it’s also – in your distracted opinion – meaningless, m’kay?
@26. jharp: – Still trying to come to grips with Obama’s landslide win? (p.s. – here’s a landslide
Oh, not at all. As soon as I realized how many millions of clueless lemmings like you infest this country, it became completely clear how you were duped into electing him.
- …elections have consequences.
Abject incompetence also has consequences: stupid polls as stupid does.
Bohemond:
“Guess what, denial-boy: self-identified conservatives now outnumber liberals in all 50 states”
I guess that’s why the most liberal senator won the White House in a landslide.
And the liberals have strong majorities in the House and Senate.
Yep, the country is a majority conservative, except on election day.
“Get over it, harpy. You won last November, but you’ve lost now.”
Let me get this straight. My guy won the White House. My guys won 60 Senate seats. My guys have a 75 seat advantage in the House. This, until at least 2012.
And I lost? Do you ever think about the gibberish you write before you hit post.
32. Bohemond: “Pretending that his kook leftist fringe actually represents more than a tiny fraction of the populace, and never, ever admitting to himself that Obama ‘won’ in principal part by bamboozling the great American electoral center into believing he was a moderate (!!).”
He is a moderate. It’s just that you’re so far over the edge of reactionary right-wing that you’re falling victim to an optical illusion in which everything just west of you appears to be liberal.
That goes for your “kook leftists fringe” as well. If you hadn’t noticed, the kook leftists fringe includes Nobel Prize winners, legislators, journalists, veterans and scientists, as well as all those other idiots who had it right on Day 1 when they said that the rationale we were being fed to justify the invasion of Iraq was bogus.
I’d rather be a correct kook any day of the week than some flagwaving numbskull mindlessly bleating “four legs good, two legs bad” as he watches the Sean Hannity Comedy Hour.
The obstacles in the path of the so-called “healthcare bill” are well beyond whatever health care issues are raised by this initiative alone. There are at least four major prior offenses, which together are bigger than whatever issues can be directly related to health care concerns:
1. 878 Billion stimilus, both ineffective and unfunded, together with the tacit promise of future inflation.
2. The financial and automotive industries takover. Ominous echoes of Fascism.
3. The Cap-and-trade passed by the house, another tax in the name of saving the planet.
4 Leaving Israel to confront her existencial threat alone.
Each of these is an ominous threat to the welfare of America, and untold burdens on the next generations, so the current zeal on trying to propel the health care bill through the process is just the trigger to an already well loaded gun. Don’t lose sight of the war on the foundations of America beyond the battle on health care reform. If it was health care alone, one could argue that the current opposition constitutes a “disproportional response”, but disproportional to what? it’s not disproportional to the threat of reducing America to some ordinary nation.
Winning a critical battle like this one depends a lot on how many mistakes the opponent makes and how ready we are to exploit them. The biggest mistake is to argue the case as if it was one of healthcare alone. Let them get mired in this myopic framing. In the meantime, keep the pressure up, so their options continue to get worse and worse.
Threading the “reconciliation” needle is difficult and dangerous, but not necessarily unsurmountable. We need to block all pathes leading to any significant health care reform. We can give them a fig leaf. We cannot let them reduce citizens into subjects. We know the difference!
rachel p., your assessment is a sound one. One additional consideration though.
Seizure of the health care sector was tackled first – with the knowledge that reconciliation is a handy backstop – because Americans forget. Health care can be rammed through on this basis and the event will be forgotten by next November. The Democrat-controlled Congress already has the lowest approval rating in the history of the statistic, so it’s not like they have to worry about losing anything meaningful if they “allow BHO to talk them into it”.
What’s more, BHO knows that Americans can be encouraged to forget more quickly through various events that demand their attention.
Thus we have seen things like the OKC Bombing, the miraculously well-timed credit meltdown, Clinton’s wag-the-dog foreign policy, the Waco massacre in ’93 preceding the AWB in ’94, years-long fishing expeditions like Plamegate pursued (and leveraged by the Fifth Column media) long after it’s known that no crime was committed, and media misfeasance in reporting on everything from the Iraq War, to Hiz’b'allah attacks on Israel to Katrina.
Watch for it. BHO and his liberal fascist ilk want an Off Switch for the Internet and Talk Radio for a reason.
And it’s not to support your Constitutional Right to exercise Free Speech.
That goes for your “kook leftists fringe” as well. If you hadn’t noticed, the kook leftists fringe includes Nobel Prize winners, legislators, journalists, veterans and scientists,
Most of the accolades these people win are self-referential. Believe in Lefty ideology, win prizes from Lefties. That’s pretty unsurprising and unconvincing in any objective sense.
goy,
I feel sorry for you. It’s one thing to be ignorant, that can be fixed. But ignorance and paranoia is a dangerous combination.
Stay away from sharp objects.
And face the facts. Obama Care is going to pass. Obama ran on reforming healthcare and won in a landslide.
I don’t see how could be any more clear.
Oh, and don’t forget to hide your guns. Obama has a plan to seize them and melt them down into a giant statue of Allah.
After he pulls the plug on grandma, provides federal funding for mandatory abortions, and provides heathcare insurance for all illegal aliens. Even the ones who aren’t yet here.
40. jharp: – …ignorance and paranoia is a dangerous combination.
A fact that your ignorant, paranoid behavior proves daily.
- Obama Care is going to pass.
Try paying attention, troll. I’ve already predicted as much. But as you’ve now admitted, it can only be done through misdirection or procedural coercion, which are the only things a fascist / corporatist / national socialist like BHO (or you) comprehends.
21. jharp:
Fantom:
Not for such fundamental and sweeping change has it been used. The closest you will get is Repubs using it to pass some tax cuts. Hardly fundamental or sweeping change.
If the democrat party/left uses it to impose socialized medicine. That is like using a nuke and excusing it for the fact an explosive hand grenade had been used before.
That is to say, for the soro’s impaired… it is an escalation an order of magnitude beyound anything reconciliation has ever been used for.
obama and fellow marxist will set a precedence allowing Repubs to do the same thing on any host of issues.
Go for it, in 2010 it will stop in 2012 it will reverse and be used by decent Americans. It will be the end of an error.
[i]39. venividivici:
Most of the accolades these people win are self-referential. Believe in Lefty ideology, win prizes from Lefties. That’s pretty unsurprising and unconvincing in any objective sense.
[/i]
Yeah right. That is what is so funny. Left wingnut’s give each other a reach around and think they won something real.
goy,
“But as you’ve now admitted, it can only be done through misdirection or procedural coercion, which are the only things a fascist / corporatist / national socialist like BHO (or you) comprehends.”
So the republican Congress who used the reconciliation process to pass the Bush tax cuts in 01, 03, and 05 were facist, corporatist, national socialists? And used misdirection/procedural coercion?
You really are an idiot. Do you even understand what you post? I, for one, don’t think you do.
Maybe your kid didn’t need any ear implant, but was just pretending not to listen to you because you’re such a dick.
I don’t see how they are going to be able to do anything with HR 3200 in September. September is for passing appropriations bills to keep the government running as of October 1.
So, jharp, another day earning your Soros (or ACORN) money? It also looks like you’re having some personal fun riling the folks with ad hominem arguments.
Anonymous:
“looks like you’re having some personal fun riling the folks with ad hominem arguments.”
Do you mean stuff like pointing out the truth?
Like this?
“Medicare and Medicaid currently comprise 35% and 11% of health care spending. Or about 8% of the economy.
The public option is expected to be about 10% of health care spending. So you can add another 1.7 %. So we will near 10% of the economy under ObamaCare versus 8% today.
That is your first lie.”
Or this?
“On Obama Care.
* Votes for seats held by GOP filibuster supporters: 44.2 million
* Votes for seats held by Dems who may filibuster: 2.5 million
* Votes for seats held by Dems who would support cloture: 79.8 million
Or in other words nearly twice as many people voted for senators likely to support a cloture motion than voted for a senator who is likely to thwart health care reform with a filibuster.”
To answer your question. No I don’t enjoy it.
I am disgusted with the lies and misinformation published by the likes of Limbaugh, Fox, Hannity, Pajamas, Malkin, Coulter, Beck, and too many others to mention. And that far too many Americans believe to be true.
No I don’t enjoy it, I wish the media would stick to the truth and an honest debate. Death panels? Give me a break. Is our country really that ignorant?
I challenge any Liberal to cite just where in the Constitution of the United States that the federal government is granted the authority to create a public option or otherwise be involved in health care. In this effort you will fail because the Constitution grants no such power. We need to draw a Constitutional line in the sand here and now or else the Constitution will truly have been rendered meaningless. If not now, when? If not the GOP, who?
James Madison, one of the authors of our Constitution, wrote, “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence (OBAMACARE – mine), the money of their constituents.”
@44. jharp: – … the republican Congress who used the reconciliation process to pass the Bush tax cuts …
No. Tax cuts aren’t socialist. Or fascist. Or corporatist.
And BTW, that talking point email you received at 3am? It left out the fact that welfare reform was also passed under reconciliation rules. Also not socialist. Or fascist. Or corporatist. But of course that’s moot now, since the corporatist Spendulus bill undid those reforms.
They also forgot to mention that Reagan’s 1980 tax cut program was passed the same way.
Yes. They used procedural coercion.
No. They didn’t use misdirection.
But here’s the difference:
Welfare reform led to people getting jobs instead of a handout through theft of U.S. Taxpayer dollars.
Bush’s policies:
- led to tax cuts that stimulated economic growth for several years straight;
- led to real GDP growth of over 3% per year;
- by early 2008, had encouraged the real economy to grow about 20%;
- until late last year, when the Democrat Congress’ policies began to take effect, had led to economic growth in every single fiscal quarter;
- helped personal, disposable, inflation-adjusted income to grow by 9% in the first six years;
- kept the unemployment rate under 6.3% and yielded an average of 5.2%;
- encouraged all-time-record-high tax revenues (yeah, it’s one a’ them paradox things);
- as late as January of ’07, had federal revenue/spending trends due to the tax cuts pushing the government on a track for a balanced budget by mid-2008 (wouldn’t THAT have been interesting in an election year!).
But again, the Democrats destroyed that momentum when they took over Congress in late 2006, after 6 years of media lies blaming Bush and the Republican party for everything from Clinton’s wag-the-dog foreign policy to acts of God. Since the Pelosi-Obama-Reid economy settled in, it’s been all downhill.
BHO’s coercive corporatist policies, on the other hand:
- have only guaranteed an extended recession;
- instead of record-high revenue, they have led to the largest increase in government spending in all of human history;
- they strong-armed banks into accepting federal funds when they weren’t needed or wanted;
- they’ve destroyed the credibility of both GM and Chrysler, virtually guaranteeing they’ll fail and leave tens of thousands of Americans unemployed (not to mention increasing the trade deficit);
- they’ve run the debt so high that middle-class tax increases are now inevitable;
- with the Democrats’ min. wage hike they have increased unemployment – he promised no higher than 8% to get the Spendulus passed… we’re now at 16%
- and they’ve soaked up any political capital he and his minions in Congress had.
Even the media is having trouble covering for them and they show obvious signs of tiring of the whole affair.
If you can’t see that difference, just keep struggling. You’ll get it. Eventually. I’ve been through it. So have lots of others. You wouldn’t be posting nonsense here every day, knowing your comments appear to be the result of a traumatic brain injury, if you weren’t crying out for help, looking for someone to explain the truth to you. I’m happy to provide that service. As are others.
I know it’s frustrating, but remember – trolling isn’t your choice, it’s a calling.
Eric:
“I challenge any Liberal to cite just where in the Constitution of the United States that the federal government is granted the authority to create a public option or otherwise be involved in health care.”
Here you go.
“The Constitution empowers Congress to “lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises,” to “provide for” the “general welfare” of the United States, and to “make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.”
As Matthew DeLong noted, “I’m no constitutional scholar, but enacting laws to reform the health care system to help provide insurance to the roughly 45 million Americans currently going without sounds like it might be covered under a reasonable reading of the ‘general welfare’ clause.”
You are welcome.
Oops, I forgot to put in my tag, didn’t mean to post as Anonymous…I note that you didn’t bother to refute the first suggestion, that you’re a single issue poster and that you’re being paid for it. And the second observation was that you throw numbers around, but you then insult anyone who doesn’t buy into them, that was the ad hominem part, it’s Latin. The numbers you threw up in the previous post would suggest that Obama won by 30 million votes, he didn’t, it was 10 million. So maybe you’re not quite as accurate as you try to suggest.
Eric, that is a great line, bumper-sticker-worthy. I’d like to hear our local lefties react.
But while we’re quoting Madison, I’d also like to pause to wonder at how the Founders are all the talk nowadays. It’s amazing and inspiring. I’m proud of my fellow citizens.
I am disgusted with the lies and misinformation published by the likes of Limbaugh, Fox, Hannity, Pajamas, Malkin, Coulter, Beck, and too many others to mention. And that far too many Americans believe to be true.
Dude, Rush Limbaugh, or any of those people on that list, could say the sun rises in the East and you’d call it a lie and ignorant. Your opinion is far too biased to be of any use.
@ 51. jharp:
Seems to contradict Madison’s words doesn’t it?
Nice try but that was neither the intent nor the meaning of the clause. Here is what Madison and Jefferson said in their own words on the aforementioned General Welfare clause. Do you want to dispute the words of the authors of the Constitution themselves?
Madison:
“With respect to the two words “general welfare,” I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.”
Jefferson:
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”
@ 53. arhooley:
You’re absolutely right – it’s about time we rediscovered our Founders, their vision and their wisdom. It’s refreshing to read all the conversations about the Constitution and the Founders.
jharp,
45 million without health care? Maybe without insurance, but not necessarily without health care. And the 45 million number has been refuted any number of times, so no need to repeat.
@51. jharp: – to “provide for” the “general welfare” …
Notably, it does NOT say “the individual welfare, which is what socialized medicine is about. Government already provides for the general welfare by funding public health programs. This is the inconvenient truth you socialist trolls keep ignoring.
As Matthew DeLong noted, he’s no constitutional scholar. That’s abundantly clear, because a reasonable reading of the ‘general Welfare’ clause was provided by Jefferson and Madison long before LeLong decided to post his insipid brainfart about it instead of doing a little research on it.
Jefferson: “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”
Madison: “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions. … With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
Kevin S:
“I note that you didn’t bother to refute the first suggestion, that you’re a single issue poster and that you’re being paid for it.”
I am pretty much a single issue poster. Not always but mostly. And it depends on the political climate. When the Iraq war was being sold I was pretty passionate in my objections mainly because health care was off the table.
Our health care system is and has been for some time my passion. It’s hit me personally and I’ve seen firsthand how’s it’s hurting our economy.
And I’m not getting paid. Never have been able to figure out this baseless accusation.
Do folks actually get paid to do what I do?
People like jharp #35 show how the MoveOn.org crowd always present partial amounts of information and then try to sell them as established “facts.” Jharp says, “I guess that’s why the most liberal senator won the White House in a landslide.” Uh, sorry chum, your boy ran as the great “centrist,” the man who was going to “Cross the isle and work in a new bipartisan environment.” What a lie. Then Jharp says, “And the liberals have strong majorities in the House and Senate.” Wrong again, buddy. You people always seem to forget the Blue Dog Democrats, the very people that got you those majorities. Obama could pass anything he wants in Congress with the majorities he now has. What’s stopping him? The Blue Dogs. They know that if they vote for this bill they’re finished and so will the majorities you so cherish in Congress. It will be 1994 all over again in 2010 if the Democrats force this bill through, and they know it. And finally, jharp uttered, “Let me get this straight. My guy won the White House. My guys won 60 Senate seats. My guys have a 75 seat advantage in the House. This, until at least 2012. And I lost?” Well, if Obama can’t pass his healthcare bill with a single-payer plan that the liberals want so much while having such an overwhelming majority in Congress, yes, HE LOSES BIG TIME. If Obama loses this and the Blue Dogs see that the president has lost all of his political capital (which he has), then you’re looking at a lame duck for the next three years. Sure, Obama may get a few minor things passed up until the mid-term elections in 2010, but, after that, he won’t be able to get a Post Office named after somebody if the Republicans win back the House and win more seats in the Senate in 2010.
But if you really are an American and even have a faint glimmer of love for this country, Reconciliation is a horrible idea for a bill of this magnitude. I really fear for this country at this moment in time. If Reid is stupid enough to try this, what little faith the American people have left in Congress (and today it was reported that it has reached a 24-year low) will be totally gone. If the Democratic party wants that as their epitaph, then have at it boys! You will drive the final nail into Congress’ coffin by forcing through a bill that is supported by less than 40% of the population. Good luck ever getting re-elected with those numbers. And remember, bills can always be repealed, no matter how complicated they are. I know this is like whistling in the wind, but if Reid and the liberal Democrats really cared about this country, they would scrap this monstrosity of a bill and start all over again. But they won’t do it. They are following the liberal holy grail of “free” healthcare for all and now that it’s so close to coming true, they just won’t be able to help themselves.
And that, my friends, will spell the end of them for at least a decade to come. Bank on it.
Does anyone have any citations to demonstrate that the trolls are being paid by Soros, ACORN, etc.? I’d like to know.
I just want to know where to send the thank-you card. The trolls are entertaining.
29. jharp:
“Whole Foods stock is down 5% today. What a shame.
I think this is the first sign the teabaggers have not picked up the slack after Whole Foods lost it’s more wealthy and more educated progressive shoppers. Maybe it’s time for another Mackey op ed bashing Obama Care.”
I suppose jharp doesn’t think that a P/E ratio of 40 on a $30 stock in the middle of a sharp overall market downturn this week has anything to do with it. Nah, it was purely the purchasing power of the “more wealthy and more educated progressive shoppers” flexing its political muscle in a boycott only a couple weeks old.
Hmmm…must have been a lot of “teabaggers” in there the other day at my local Whole Foods, ’cause the place was PACKED. Or could it be that their typical shoppers aren’t a bunch of angry fringe lefties?
jharp might be able give a tip or two on trolling message boards regurgitating far left talking points in an incredibly obnoxious manner, but I would not recommend taking any financial advice from this guy/gal/whatever.
55. Eric:
@ 51. jharp:
Seems to contradict Madison’s words doesn’t it?
Nice try but that was neither the intent nor the meaning of the clause. Here is what Madison and Jefferson said in their own words on the aforementioned General Welfare clause. Do you want to dispute the words of the authors of the Constitution themselves?
Madison:
“With respect to the two words “general welfare,” I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.”
Jefferson:
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”
That was worth reposting.
The 60 vote rule isn’t to equalize the minority party, but rather prevent the passing of extreme left or extreme right policy…checks and balances. It’s meant to make bills more difficult to pass, which helps to insure the laws that do get passed are best for the country.
Reconciliation has been used in the past, mostly for tax cuts. While healthcare will effect the budget, this reform is primarily being used for more government control. Trying to use it now would not only be a misuse of power, it would be suicide. But typical Liberal moral equality…they did it, we can do it too. How ’bout using it to lower taxes?
Regarding 2012, not sure what the Dems will run on. High unemployment, high deficits, Afganistan, the Porkulus Spending Bill? Only thing they have are negative ads. Republicans would be smart to counter that tact early, with ads that say “Dems are going to run negative ads because that’s all they have left.” A smaller government campaign, using revenue to determine the budget rather than setting spending goals trying to find a way to pay for it, will be just what the country is looking for. Let’s remove the Czars and return government to the people.
Honestly I hope the Dems ram it down your throat with reconciliation. I don’t care if Obama never gets another Republican vote on anything. That much better for us and this glorious nation we call America. Yes, we’re taking our country back from the extremist right wing theocrats. Jesus told us to.
jharp
yes people do get paid to do what you do…so, please don’t assume everyone is as ill-educated as your constituency.
Just simply ask…how is it that people show up at events with professionally printed signs when the other side doesn’t? Does that mean the other side is far more sophisticated in their thought? But you’ve spent the last 10 years telling all and sundry how smart you are and how stupid the other side is. Seems like a disconnect to this unsophisticated thinker.
oh well…
Just look around here and on other blogs at what sorts are supporting and cheering on this “post racial” president. Of course the democrats would go this route if it let them get a bill implemented. They have absolutely no concept of the difference between pissed off republicans and independents taking it to the streets and their own who see protest as a hobby and often as a means for some quick paid protest money.
It’ll finally sink in when Reid and his pals publicly agree with Obama that they don’t care what happens to their next term if they can just pass health care. Of course they don’t mind, since once they have the bill, they will have established themselves as life-long nobility with a separate and unequal right to life itself. Your very right to life will be in their hands from the moment of conception until they think you’ve served your purpose. Why would they worry about which duchy or fiefdom they’re appointed to after they’re voted out of office under those circumstances? Any appointed position they get if they’re will be far better than any elected office is now. They know from history that people who can have their lives taken away at the whim of the commissar or plantation owner will fall in line with any bribe and any demand they make. Which demands will your refuse when it’s your child, wife, or parent, in need of medical you know is available but have been told you don’t merit?
There are huge piles of evidence that at least since the eighties democrats have received massive foreign funds for their campaigns. Far, far, more evidence than there is for anything democrats have slandered republicans with during the past fifteen years. In spite of the mountain of evidence, the only thing being investigated is whether the CIA used harsh language when investigating terrorists. Not terrorist suspects, but known terrorists capture on the battlefield, terrorists who like the Japanese in WWII do not abide by or even acknowledge the Geneva Conventions. That exemplifies the kind of “fair”, “honest”, “responsible”, and “caring” government the democrats always have run and always will. It’s no accident that once illegal contributions became the norm for the democrat party that the democrats from Chicago came out on top. It’s the inevitable outcome of and proof of what the democrat party has become at all levels nationwide.
Obama cannot go much longer without having either a breakdown or a public display of his madness, so Reid and the other top dogs know they have to act fast. If they don’t win this one, they probably lose their last chance to own the entire population; and make no mistake they would own everyone even more than they now own those poor souls who were born on the welfare plantation and have never known any other life.
Regards
We have to vote out every democrat we can and start repealing these bills before they completely destroy this country as predicted so they can turn it into another form of goverment. I was raised during the cold war and was taught 1 individual thinker can out do thousands of communists so lets all use are heads and get this bad bunch out of congress.