Obama DREAMs of Amnesty
Republicans on Capitol Hill reportedly don’t trust President Obama, and with good reason. He’s nearly always up to no good, promising a “change in tone” while in reality, he’s pursuing the same old divisive, destructive policies.
According to Politico, President Obama wants the defeated Democrat majority to pass the DREAM Act on its way out as a “down payment” on “comprehensive immigration reform,” which in his world amounts to amnesty for illegals:
President Barack Obama told Democratic members of Congress Tuesday he wants the DREAM Act passed in the lame duck session as a “down payment” on substantial immigration reform, according to members at the meeting.
And, he said, he’d call resistant senators to get them on board.
The president told Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.), Reps. Nydia Velasquez (D-N.Y.) and Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.) in a meeting at the White House that he would call members holding out on approving the DREAM Act, which provides a path to citizenship for young illegal immigrants who complete two years of college or military service.
Among other things, the DREAM Act would put illegal aliens ahead of U.S. citizens and legal residents for benefits like in-state college tuition. It would put an estimated 2 million illegal aliens on the path to legalization. It’s unfair and expensive, neither of which seem to matter to Obama and folks like Harry Reid. Politics trumps common sense and the rule of law.
In ordinary times, it would be fitting at this point to say that someone needs to tell President “I Won” that he lost and therefore has no clout to get anyone to do anything. But these aren’t ordinary times and this president isn’t a triangulating self-preservationist. This president is a hard-edged ideologue and he knows exactly what he’s doing.
So the objective is to create 2 million more votes for him by making them a privileged group and then to buy their support with the dole system he is denying other citizens because….tey voted to many demonrats out of office and let the Tea Party in?
Precisely; It’s the same reason GM was ‘bought’; Bailouts are used ‘selectively’; ObamaCare Waivers are dispensed; Etc, etc, etc.
Haven’t you noticed the vitality the unions have since his coronation?
Given the age demographics of the illegal alien population (mostly young) and the vague way this bill is written, the DREAM Act would apply to at least 70% of the aliens present in the US. There are no concrete methods of verification of residency and these people have strong cottage industries manufacturing fake documents.
This is backdoor amnesty for almost all of them, make no mistake.
“There are no concrete methods of verification of residency and these people have strong cottage industries manufacturing fake documents.”
Not to mention illegals also have Bob Menendez who still claims to be the Senator from NJ (but we NJ TAXPAYERS know better)
resident non-citizens can vote? When did that happen?
Resident non-citizens can vote in local elections in at least 5 places in MD & in Chicago & there are probably more. Fortunately efforts to let non-citizens vote in local elections in San Fran & Portland ME failed. C’mon, do you really think once someone gets on the voting roles, he’d be kept from voting in a national election? NAH!
DREAM Act, which provides a path to citizenship for young illegal immigrants who complete two years of college or military service.
I’m willing to consider the merits of granting permanent residency with a fast-track to citizenship for illegals who serve in the military. Likewise, I support expedited citizenship for legal immigrants who serve in the military. I see no rational reason why college students who manage to stay in school for 2 years should get the same consideration. They probably outnumber those serving in the military by at least 50 to 1.
Exactly. Can anyone explain to me why we need more college educated pizza delivery drivers? At a time when college graduates go to work at Walmart to pay off their $100,000 student loans, we need more college graduates like we need more community organizers.
So, if I understand you correctly. You want people to drop out of college or simply not ever go because there are not jobs in their prospective fields right now.
That education is worthless, and educated, knowledgeable people cannot help the economy out? I think I understand, to fix the economy we need to be uneducated and aspire for minimum wage jobs.
Do you really think that if everyone in America had a college degree, the economy would be “fixed”? That is insane.
The bulk of jobs in this country do not require a college education. We have done a fabulous job of overselling the value of a college degree as the gateway to a great career and income. But we already have millions more with degrees than the economy requires, and millions of tasks that do not require a degree. Where do we get the people to fill those jobs?
Oh, wait, we just let them sneak into the country.
This is why we now have the Higher Education Bubble building and ready to burst, with millions of grads who have trillions in college loans to pay back, with no jobs for them, other than…delivering pizzas. But those jobs are already taken…by illegal aliens.
Ain’t leftism grand?
You’re talking common sense, aren’t you?
What does that have to do with creating another fault line for revolution in this country?
I, too, might be able to live w/the military service if it’s a 3 yr hitch at half pay which would prove a real commitment, but exactly how does 2 yrs of drinking beer in college qualify as any kind of “service to the country?” Also, since illegal immigrant “kids” up to age 35 (& older in “certain” cases) will almost certainly fall into the “poor” category, citizens would be forced to pay for their “free” college education. That’s an absolute non-starter.
It’s not simply Obama but Obama and Soros..and Pelosi, Reid and that gang.
Obama is unable to develop a policy or program on his own; he hasn’t the analytic capacity to see its political or economic results. His focus is on ‘who loves me today’ and ‘how can I harm anyone who doesn’t love me’.
At any rate, the agenda is indeed to ‘divide and conquer’. It is a massive polarizing tactic. The fact that it is profoundly unfair and undemocratic escapes Obama who hasn’t ‘thought’ about it. How can a government put people who have come here illegally, ahead of its own citizens and/or legal immigrants with regard to taxpayer benefits?How? Why?
Why? Ahh…for two reasons. For Pelosi and Reid, it’s about votes and the enormous hispanic populations in their respective states..to vote Democratic. That’s what it’s all about. Nothing more.
For Soros, it’s about dividing the electorate into adversarial groups, pitting citizens against each other…and thus diverting their attention from the basic agenda of increased federal centralist statism. Soros is a psychopath and he gets a vicarious thrill from setting up adversarial violence and anger..and weakening a population so that they can no longer fight an increasing authoritarian national government.
Obama? He’s a clinical narcissist – and his focus is on the ‘hispanic love’…and the far-left love. Anyone who doesn’t adulate His Will, is simply, for Obama, unAmerican.
What a perverse and cyncial trio. However, ignoring reality and the American people isn’t that easy.
“Obama is unable to develop a policy or program on his own; he hasn’t the analytic capacity to see its political or economic results.”
You, ETAB, are obviously gonna require more “training.” Repeat after me until Nov 2012: Obama…..GENIUS. Everyone else, but especially Palin…..DUMB-A$$ES. (Congratulations! Now, no matter what your citizenship status, you qualify as an official Democratic voter)
How about full payment being made by the new congress finishing the FENCE across the entire border, and not a virtual fence but a real one with trenches, barbed wire, concertina wire, surveillance cameras, easy paths for vehicles along the entire border and outposts every 10 miles, is this too much, I do not think so.
Get our soldiers out of Germany and Japan (leave the navy and marines there) and put them on the border of Mexico and Canada we are in a war footing there and need to prove it.
This can not continue if our country is to survive, not just for illegal Mexican and Latinos but others!
I have little doubt that Barack Obama would get the Dream act passed if at all possible. Fortunately, both Houses of Congress are probably hesitant to get that crazy. This bill will be placed on the side. Can you imagine any Democratic politician winning reelection in 2012 in a purple state if they vote for this nonsense? I also suspect that the Democrats will lose minimally two million more white voters—and even some black ones who realize the illegal immigrants economically threaten them.
But even if Obama fails to get DREAM passed, he’ll still get mileage out of the attempt; namely, that “Republicans are racist and the Party of No”, and that will resonate with some Hispanic and other minority voters.
Even so, the Republicans (and everybody else) are right to oppose this cynical and shameful ploy. It’s time America stood up to the progressively-correct crowd and called their bluff, stripping away whatever shreds of relevance they still have.
There is no calling their bluff because they are not playing a game. They will stop at nothing to defeat America. Therefore the Dems and progressive communists will continue to divide America by race and ethnicity until it is white America versus black, hispanic and communist invaders.
We must not only defeat them at the ballot box which means overcoming fraud like never before attempted but we must eliminate them.
It is all too obvious that we-true Americans and them cannot coexist here.
I wonder, if this was to pass, how many “colleges” would suddenly spring up out of nowhere (on line or elsewhere) that would automatically pass the students for any given course just because they signed up for it? You know, none of this judgmental grades kind of thing.
And I wonder too how many of those colleges would accept anybody for enrollment. Can’t read? Never had any schooling at all? No problem. The Acorn College of Social Justice will accept you as a pupil. You can have that degree and citizenship in no time.
DREAM act? A better description might be the DATE RAPE DRUG FOR AMERICANS act.
Good point. Kinda the way they treated draft dodgers during the Vietnam War. The Mandarinate in academia have no problem with treason, no matter what kind of treason it is.
Lenin: Class-based International Socialism
Hitler: Race-based National Socialism
Obama: Class- and Race-based Post-National Socialism
Right on!!!!! Down with the Intelligentsia. Anyone with a PhD. [they are, with almost NO exceptions, Socialists, albeit NONE of them are what could be accurately described as "Workers"...
] should be sent into the countryside, into hard labor on a Cabbage or Burley Tobacco farm. The only thing worse is the ones who use their high-falootin’ credentials to land jobs with Big Brother and His Gigantic Neo-Stalinist Bureaucratic State Apparatus. Vote out the One-Worlders and Big-Staters, clean out all those make Big Statism possible with their unpatriotic (=treasonous)academia-soaked Intellectualism, and SWEEP OUT THE PARASITES who serve them and drive up our tax burden, debt, and other general oppresions and tyrannies!!! Who needs them, we’ve got “dry powder”. A True Tea Party is a-comin’! Gahhhhhhhhhh!
Oh, dear, I must confess a grievous error, and retract entirely my earlier statements. It would appear that “mandarinate” refers to the bureaucratic system of Imperial China, and that the elimination of such a class (liquidation or farm-labor “re-education” of the intellectual class) is actually a hallmark of militant, Maoist COMMUNISM! So, then, perhaps the thinking Conservative may, in fact, not feel the need for a wholesale elimination of the Educated or Intellectually Gifted … ???? :-/ Whaddaya say, Khan Krum? Wouldn’t want to throw out all the babies along with that bathwater, methinks…
Of course he does DREAM, that’s one of the main reasons his handlers put him up there for him to push. The Bilderberg Group, mainly Bill Gates and Warren Buffett in it, want borderless countries – they think it’s good for efficiently producing and peddling their wares. Breaking down a nation and the substituting of national laws to international ones are integral parts of their agenda in a new world order they envision.
Hitler and Stalin wanted borderless countries too.
That would be UN “Agenda 21.” Check it out on Wiki., JjJ. Border-less countries that are just a geographical spot on the earth where all may come and go as they please yet hook onto the “administrative” support systems offered by the advanced *former* nations (now simply a part of a world-wide commercial complex) is the ultimate Nirvana for both the extreme left academics, “intellectuals” in the MSM, Hollywood, TV and publishing industries plus the “cosmopolitan” business and professional class working in int. trade and finance on Wall Street and in industry. Rationalized in terms of “efficiency” by the “free-trade” “internationalist” business class and of “fairness”/”social justice” by the extreme eco-Stalinist, neo-Marxist, post-modern, pot-colonial, multi-culti PC “deconstructionist” leftists.
I agree with Larry J (#2) that illegals willing to serve in the military for at least a four year term should get fast-tracked to citizenship, but not their law-breaking parents or grandparents or siblings, etc. In the military they will learn discipline, honor, love of country, and develop a strong work ethic, exactly what all citizens should have, even those born here. What a wonderful cohort they would be in the Hispanic communities when the return to civilian life.
If they go to “college” here instead, what will they learn? Phony Hispanic Studies, how to protest for more free stuff and open borders, and they will be turned into more leftling zombies that reliably vote Democratic.
Which is exactly why college is on the list. Let’s see now. Join the military (and go to war) or go to college (cheap beer, lots of sex, and leftist programming).
Who said the libs were dumb?
Which is why I said the Dream act would be quite acceptable to me if it ONLY allowed military service as the gateway to citizenship, but not college.
The Dream Act will be a nightmare for the remaining Obama Democrats since it will fracture them even in the Lame Duck Congress; this will backfire regardless. Obama is Captain Ahab looking for his while whale to get revenge. Obama remains radioactive. To put out the radiation, he must change course, but Obama is not going to change course. He’s going to destroy the ship & kill all of his crew in a vain attempt to kill the white whale. Obama will destroy the Democrat Party when he’s done & force another Democrat to run against him to save the party from his Marxist oblivion.
Folks: Contact your senators and representatives to defeat this bill. This will allow chain migration in which the illegal alien “child” who receives benefits because of the DREAM Act will be able to apply for citizenship for his parents(who broke the law to begin with),siblings, aunts, uncles, etc.
It gives all of these people the idea that they are above the law and entitled to more benefits in the future
I can’t wait for the elections of 2012. This idiot will be voted out and with him the remnants of the democratic party.
It would be difficult to distrust or to be more cynical about the Obama administration than it is already. Then this “priority” appears to push his agenda into a more comical yet dangerous farce. What selling speech could Obama deliver to put lipstick on this pig. Would he promise that it would lower the cost curve of the debt, reduce unemployment, increase health benefits by quantative easement? Does it give better relativity to the rule of law as does reparation, redistribution, and medical marijuana?
This is about buying votes with someone elses’ money and freedom. The new potential hispanic citizenry had better be able to hear the slaver chains coming over the smooth promises.
I think that Obama never had a good grip on reality – see oceans not rising, planets healing, fake greek temples, fake Presidential seals, 57 states, 2000 year old US constitutions and all the other Monty Python foolishness.
This DREAM act is more evidence of his continuing drift away from reality. His intentions may well be malign but he’s leaving many Democrats, who are tethered to the real world, as he floats away into fantasy land.
I’d give him a 30% chance of pulling this one off.
It has been obvious since well before he was president, that Obama and Pelosi were bat-shit crazy. They had somehow developed coping mechanisms when they were young, which allowed them to pass as relatively sane and normal.
Soros, on the other hand, is as brilliant and utterly evil and profoundly destructive as any super villian in a James Bond movie. In some ways he is the personification of the Antichrist or the Devil. If the machine gun, AIDS, and cancer did not exist yet, Soros would undoubtedly spend a large portion of his time, energy and money to invent and distribute them.
I would not be even slightly surprised if Soros were to buy nuclear weapons on the black market, give them to the craziest fanatical suicidal terrorists he could find, train them, then fly them to various spots in the U.S. on his private jets.
The idea is stupid no matter where the illegals serve. We do not need anyone who is illegal in any service nor in college. They need to use the front door – LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER IMMIGRANT GROUP ( I wonder how mny people would even give a squat about this if we were talking about Albanians) and consider going to school here or serving in our armed forces as a PRIVELAGE not as a payment for their lawbreaking. Accepting the basic premise is stupid and denigrates the whole idea of law(exactly what those shytewhole countries are missing – take my word for it, I am a 20 year veteran of frequent/constant business trips to latin america)and citizenship. How far will you soft hearteed dimwits bend over to help dedstroy the meaning of citizenship!
How about an illegal President? Would an entire illegal Congress fit the bill? They’re trying like hell, to get themselves labeled as felons; Ain’t that good enough?
A Frenchman? Let’s be real. The reason there is a problem with illegal immigration is because of people from south of the border. That is the situation. In my mind, when someone refers to some obscure illegal immigrant demographic it seems to affirm that he/she believes if we focus on those who represent 95 percent of the problem it would be racism somehow. This gives silent reassurance to liberal schemers that racism can still be their go-to accusation. Let’s be real. If we have a problem with Muslims we do not need to enact laws that address ALL religions. If we have a problem with Hispanic illegal immigrants we do not need to address every nationality of illegal. If you have a problem with cockroaches you don’t have to put out poison for spiders also, although dealing with the one might solve the other.
It has been said that “one day we will miss the old Communism”. That day is here.
Nothing will happen in the Lame Duck session…remember there were 47 Kommiecrats who voted against Palosi being Minority Leader plus some of those that did are rational enough to table this for later; much much later
All any Republican has to say to Obambi is; “We won”. Then walk out and get to work repealing his entire program of legislation and agenda.
Screw this Democrat Party. The Party is over.
They’re having secret meetings to draw up their battle plans against the Citizens of The United States at the most posh, expensive resorts they can find;
Story here:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45260.html
And at Google News; Citizens voting with their feet:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.economics/browse_thread/thread/d7c53aaacca46337
I’m not quite sure I understand the full measure of this proposal.
Maybe we have to pass it to understand what is in it, like most other Pelosi/Reid/Frank/Obama legislation.
However, the gist of it I gather, is that 15/16 year olds who are children of illegal immigrants and therefore cannot currently have citizenship rights, will be granted those rights if they do X or Y…or something else.
Ok….so how does one declare oneself a candidate for this program? By ratting out your parents? Give a name, address, phone number and an affidavit of criminal offense along with a 5th Amendment plea against self-incrimination by your parents?
YOU, as a minor…cannot sign a contract that is going to be binding…your parents must sign it as well, if you are below the age of consent? It’s a mass confession…absolutely brilliant for finding those in hiding, I would think.
And, if the parents are required to sign…do they have to give their social security numbers, so that they may be checked against the registered issued ones?
Their place of work? Pretty neat trick for finding employers who might have …um…an unusual amount of DREAM’ers parents on their payroll.
Utterly brilliant plan, I declare.
Keep the kid, deport the parents? Is that the tradeoff? Catch the employers in the dragnet?
It’s not entrapment…the kid isn’t being caught or punished. Again, maybe there is some loophole hidden in the goody bag of the Pelosi “find out what’s in it after we pass it” crowd. But, if I’m a DREAM candidate, I wouldn’t want it passed by leftist Democrats and enforced by Tea Party patriots. That would be a Trojan horse of a different color.
Mr. Preston:
“This president is a hard-edged ideologue and he knows exactly what he’s doing.”
I’ll conditionally agree on the hard-edged ideologue part, but I disagree on the “he knows what he’s doing” bit.
If you think about it, being an ideologue implies that by its very nature, one will only “think” one knows what one is doing, but will in fact be clinging to a formulaic philosophy.
The moonbats are all telling each other that the historic pimp-sticking that they received on November 2nd, (“November” being the NEW “N-word” that moonbats despise and decry), was all about Jobs and the economy.
So along comes the Puddin’head Of The United States and what does he propose for the Lame Duck Congressional soviet?
The DREAM Act and ratification of the START treaty, while playing coy games about signing on to the repeal of the Bush tax cuts expiration.
Where’s the “jobs” and the “economy” in these initiatives?
Right…nowhere.
“He’s in his community organizer/community polarizer mode here, dipping back into the strategies that he used as ACORN’s man in league with Chicago UNO to try to stir up heated rhetoric and action among his political opposites.”
And there’s his predictable formulaic ideologue thinking…”stick with the playbook”.
The Alleged Hawaiian has failed to learn despite the evidence of the hustings, that he is not exclusively the representative of a few narrow constituents, but rather of us all.
His self-limiting of his vision of “his community” to only encompass the fantastically small communities that he came from is what will doom the rest of his tenure in office to failure.
With Reid and Pelosi just barely managing to maintain their leadership positions in the Congressional soviet, and his core group of advisers remaining largely unchanged, I doubt very much that he will be altering his course too radically.
And if nothing else, November’s results showed that the Republic expects something different of him and his Odministration.
Obama is well aware that the upcoming Congress will never pass any of his delusional, destructive cra-, so per Soros’ direct orders, he will decree an immediate, full and unconditional amnesty (and a great many additional delusional Socialist policies) by Executive Order. We are about to witness Obama issue the most Executive Orders per month of any president in the history of our nation.
Obama is beginning to realize that there is not even a small chance he will be re-elected. So he and Soros are recalibrating how they can weaken the U.S. as much as possible in the 2 years he has left, while transforming the U.S. into as Communist a nation as possible given the remaining time and current political situation. Just yesterday Soros publically said he admires the Chinese Communist government, and said it is desirable and superior to the American government. He is not kidding, he REALLY means it, and he has billions of dollars to back him up (and not the slightest trace of a conscience).
What I find amusing is that the Dems are supporting illegal immigration based on a false assumption: A great majority of them vote for us, so therefore, they always will! Logic is never a Leftist’s strong-suit.
Perhaps we should reconsider this whole thing. America has always taken in vast amounts of foreigners. Sometimes there was some short-term harm, but in the long run, they all became Americans. At some point, we started trying to control the inflow, because of its sheer quantity, but it is important to remember that it wasn’t always like this. There didn’t used to be a question of Citizebship.
What if we sealed the border tightly to control the flow? Then, we grant amnesty. Once that is out of the way, will these hispanics continue to vote for the Dems, or will they move on to other priorities? Once they are legal, they start paying taxes. Once they are paying taxes, their attitudes will change some. Furthermore, there will be no fear of deportation to force them to tolerate the vicious criminals in their midst. Perhaps the flaw with the first amnesty was that they never built a wall. Reagan accepted empty Dem promises.
The Dems cannot make victims of them, if they have no grievance to exploit. One less wedge in our society. Once you destroy the single-issue voter’s overriding consideration, then what do they do?
I’m not saying this is right. I am merely throwing this out there for consideration.
Marc: You make sense but with the hispanics it is about benefits. they will never vote GOP or Tea Party because they know that means responsibility, work and less benefits. Voting Dem on the other hand means living off the white man’s benevolence. They see what black Americans have gained for their votes and the appeal is very strong.
Furthermore, and moreover they know our side demands obeying our laws and becoming an American and giving to her all that you can to support her. They are NEVER going to do that; they are Mexican and SA first and foremost.
“What I find amusing is that the Dems are supporting illegal immigration based on a false assumption: A great majority of them vote for us, so therefore, they always will!”
This is like hunting dairy cows with a deer rifle, but one of the major flaws in moonbat thinking, (as it were), is to conflate their “oppressed enslaved minority/ethnic” historical model, as commenter Dusty does below,
with what is purely a legal and sovereignty matter.
It also doesn;t help their case that DemocRats are great lovers of “the People”, (as they blab and yammer on about it so), but despise and fear the individual persons who make up “the People” that they try so hard to convince themselves they are the champions of.
To put it in a nutshell, moonbats know dick about Latinos/Hispanics/Chicanos. They think that a population that is proudly Catholic, hard-working, and family oriented, (almost to a fault), is just going to start supporting and voting for confiscatory taxes, gay rights, subsidized abortion on demand, “scientifulous” eco-moonbattery and all the other bottles of snake oil and pig shampoo that Progressives hold near and dear to their shriveled and blackened little hearts?
It is truly to laugh. A great deal of Hispanics/Latinos/Chicanos came here to get away from PRECISELY the kind of moonbat policy agendas that turned their native lands into basket cases and shit-holes.
None of this seems to matter to the inmates of the “Reality-based community”, for whom it is always “1965 in Mississippi” somewhere, and so they must reckon that all they have to do is convince Hispanics/Chicanos/Latino that they are actually no different than oppressed Southern “negroes” and then everyone together sing “Kumbayah” for the moonbat political hegemony to be established.
This is why they use the illegal aliens as they do. To try and make their “Mississippi Summer” model more realistic.
First of all, if recent studies are to be believed (http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/immigration/publications/impactofimmigrants08.pdf), then allowing immigrants to naturalize as quickly as possible is actually good for our economy.
The comments regarding the negativity of educating these immigrants is highly reminiscent of other policies refusing education to minorities; that they may get the intellectual tools necessary to combat their oppressed situations. Yes, going to college does increase your ability to understand reason and logic, increases your ability to write, and overall can help you to become a more responsible person to your fellow human. God forbid immigrants get access to that.
The military requirements give another option; enter the military, where you have a high probability of becoming physically or mentally scarred, or go back to your country. This actually seems detrimental to naturalization.
This conversation, the entire tone and rhetoric of it, reflects an utter disregard for the universal rights of humanity.
Give me a coherent argument that isn’t imbued with red-scare and Hispanic-scare tactics, please.
There are several problems with your argument.
First – there is no evidence that going to college produces an ability to use reason and logic. In fact, we have a great deal of evidence that it produces the opposite effect; namely, an ability in the use of sophistry, semantic double-talk, a focus on red herrings and irrationality.
Second, the focus is not on minorities, and your insertion of such an issue is, itself, an act of sophistry, i.e., it’s a red herring.
Third – there is no evidence that joining the military produces, in any measure, a result of physical or mental ‘scarring’ and your assumption of such a result remains …your opinion.
The above are all your unsubstantiated opinions.
However, the chief argument that so many of us have against this new proposal is that it is deeply undemocratic and unfair. That is, why should people who are here illegally, be rewarded by taxpayer funded education and military training – when citizens and legal immigrants are not offered such benefits? Could you answer that?
Can you explain the justice of a system that says that IF you apply to the US as a legal immigrant, and are accepted, THEN you pay for your children’s education. But, IF you sneak in illegally, THEN, your children will receive a free college education. Hmm.
Alright, fair enough. College is a good lesson in sophistry. I would argue to you that anyone can use sophistry, and at least collegiate education forces you to learn about logical fallacies, and understand that they’re inadmissible as argument. Also, give me your great deal of evidence that it produces the opposite effect, or you are relying on sophistry.
Joining the military doesn’t cause mental scaring per se, but the chance is higher that you will be forced to kill and see killing, and you can do a Google search yourself for evidence of the psychological damage incurred in recent wars.
The focus IS explicitly on minorities, just by the facts of immigration. Immigrants are largely minorities. I wasn’t relying on this being a proof, only an observation.
Another unsubstantiated opinion- maybe I’m wrong- but does the DREAM act actually pay for college education? It doesn’t seem to.
I’m making a hasty generalization here, but I’m assuming that you support a strong military. Does this mean that you will deny bolstering our troop forces at a time when military recruitment is sorely lacking?
Dusty – don’t move into red herrings.
First, a college education does not necessarily introduce or even teach someone to understand critical thinking tactics, including formal and informal logic and the various fallacies. There are very few courses given on these topics outside of the philosophy department. As for proof of the results of a college education and an increase in sophistry and ‘word-games’ – I’ll offer proof of my 30 years in the profession and of editing journals in the humanities and social sciences. I assure you, a college educated person can use words to say nothing with a great deal of skill.
Certainly, being in the military means that you might see killings; that is the nature of a military force. Are you suggesting that our nation disband its military?
Equally, a medical doctor can see horrorifying diseases, incurable illness in the young and so on.
Life is not all about picket fences and apple pie.
As for the focus being on minorities – as I said, that’s not relevant, for there is no just reason for a member of a minority group to be treated any differently, in an immigration application, than anyone else.
The DREAM Act: “It is a massive amnesty that extends to the millions of illegal aliens who entered the United States before the age of 16. The illegal alien who applies for this amnesty is immediately rewarded with “conditional” lawful permanent resident (green card) status, which can be converted to a non-conditional green card in short order. The alien can then use his newly acquired status to seek green cards for the parents who brought him in illegally in the first place. In this way, it is also a backdoor amnesty for the millions of illegal aliens who brought their children with them to the United States.
What is less well known about the DREAM Act is that it also allows illegal aliens to receive in-state tuition rates at public universities, discriminating against U.S. citizens from out of state and law-abiding foreign students. It repeals a 1996 federal law that prohibits any state from offering in-state tuition rates to illegal aliens unless the state also offers in-state tuition rates to all U.S. citizens.”
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/09/a-sleeper-amnesty-time-to-wake-up-from-the-dream-act
So, an individual who is in the US illegally, is allowed tuition rates only available for legal citizens of that state – and not available for legal citizens outside of the state. But the illegal student IS from ‘outside of the state’!!!
“For example, a student from Missouri who attends Kansas University and has always played by the rules and obeyed the law is charged three times the tuition charged to an alien whose very presence in the country is a violation of federal criminal law.”
So, the illegals pay no taxes, but the state subsidizes their college tuition, while the legal citizen doesn’t get such benefits.
Nothing to do with minority status, by the way. Just immigration law.
Of course I support a strong military. Since we live in a world of conflicts, then to do otherwise would be to refuse to support the safety of our citizens.
“There is no upper age limit. Any illegal alien can walk into a U.S. Customs and Immigration Services office and declare that he is eligible. For example, a 45 year old can claim that he illegally entered the United States 30 years ago at the age of 15. There is no requirement that the alien prove that he entered the United States at the claimed time by providing particular documents. The DREAM Act’s Section 4(a) merely requires him to “demonstrate” that he is eligible—which in practice could mean simply making a sworn statement to that effect. Thus, it is an invitation for just about every illegal alien to fraudulently claim the amnesty.
The alien then has six years to adjust his status from a conditional green card holder to a non-conditional one. To do so, he need only complete two years of study at an institution of higher education. If the alien has already completed two years of study, he can convert to non-conditional status immediately (and use his green card as a platform to bring in family members). As an alternative to two years of study, he can enlist in the U.S. military and spend two years there. This provision allows Senator Durbin to claim that the DREAM Act is somehow germane to a defense authorization bill.”
I suggest you actually read the DREAM Act – parts of it are in the link I provide to see exactly what it sets up. It’s total amnesty for illegal immigration and a violation of legal immigrant rights.
I suppose I see the flaws you point out as flaws in larger immigration policy, not just this act.
If a person has been working for 30 years in the United States, as the Heritage Foundation’s hypothetical entails, and wishes to get citizenship, I don’t see why they shouldn’t.
Tuition should be easier to get for everyone. If there’s one thing to subsidize, it’s education. Whatever you want to say about sophistry and the like, it doesn’t seem like a very cogent argument to argue that we shouldn’t be educating people. ETAB, you seem to have benefited from this system. The government should address making this feasible before the DREAM act, if anything.
These aliens aren’t going to be tax-paying citizens unless they are naturalized. So if we want to argue about the possibility of mass deportations or the fence at this point, I guess we should.
Lawfully present aliens should have a much easier time of things. We should focus on that before this act, yes. I suppose I don’t see the harm in making citizenship easy. Yes, I know, Pandora’s box is about to open, we would see a huge influx of immigrants stuffing our system. I don’t think we are at that capacity.
there is no evidence that joining the military produces, in any measure, a result of physical or mental ’scarring’
ETAB, this is a cherished theme of lefties. They view military men and women — especially veterans — as pathetic, abused, deprived, deluded souls. Whenever Michelle Obama wants to look patriotic by supporting the troops, she calls for more mental health benefits.
“This conversation, the entire tone and rhetoric of it, reflects an utter disregard for the universal rights of humanity.”
Take your rights of humanity and go live in the Sudan.
What a load of communist pap.
Didn’t we see you in one of Zombies pictures??
Regarding college education you wrote, “God forbid immigrants get access to that.” Is that a topic in current events? I don’t understand your statement… oh, oh, oh, wait, do you mean to say, “God forbid “illegal” immigrants get access to that.”? You forgot the illegal part, silly.
Why should some Frenchman whose family snuck into the U.S. or overstayed their visas immediately get benefits that an Oklahoman has to wait a year to get if she attends university ten miles from her home over in Arkansas? Make Obama’s Democrats answer that.
Better still, reverse that: Okies crashing the gates of Paris and demanding (in loud, corn-pone English) privileges of welfare, free healthcare, low-cost education, and other social services provided by tolerant, English-speaking government employees. Of course they’d also need bilingual schools and television stations, driver’s licenses, and a hands-off policy by local police. Regular demonstrations by American-flag-waving Okies at the Elysee Palace must be met by sympathetic French citizens. The term “Ugly American” would be censored, Yankee Doodle would be sung at French school assemblies . . .
The reason Obama and the Dems are pushing amnesty is clear and printed in many op-eds and other post election analyses, the Dems overwhelmingly lost the white vote and since that’s never likely to change the Dems need to reduce the percentage of the white vote on order to impose their socialist state on us. If they think we’re going to allow ourselves to be made into serfs and indentured servants to Democrat constiuents I highly recommend they attempt to better learn the nature and determination of we conservatives. We will NOT become subjects to our own government and their freeloading dependent classes.
#23 Dusty
This conversation, the entire tone and rhetoric of it, reflects an utter disregard for the universal rights of humanity.
It all depends upon what you think the universal rights of humanity are. To some it is the right to latch on to the jugular vein of others and feed, and to others it is the right to grab those same parasites that latch on to them and hurl them away.
“It all depends upon what you think the universal rights of humanity are.”
Doesn’t it, though.
“To some it is the right to latch on to the jugular vein of others and feed…”
I give you ObamaCare, where “Health Care as a human right” equates to the elderly forcing the young to buy health insurance, (thereby joining the risk pool), and subsidizing seniors’ electric mobility scooters and Viagra prescriptions.
Blotto up above has the plain right of it.
Whenever I hear some clown talk about “universal human right(s)”, I reach for my side-arm, as this almost always means a load of communist pap designed to rationalize a collectivist extortion racket.
How do illegals get in the military? Kick ‘em out and their illegal friends right back to Latino America. The Dream Act is a slap in the face of the idea of the rule of law or common sense for that matter. Under current US leadership in both parties, there will be 1 billion people in the US before too long rather than a prosperous country with a stabilized birth population. Welcome to the effects of the Third World baby boom which is as devastating as Cortes on the causeways of Tenochtitlan.
I wonder when the Blacks will realize that they are no longer the ‘preferred minority’? Those Blacks who can qualify for college are being displaced by illegal aliens. You just can’t make up stuff this good.
How about demanding that Obama produce a birth certificate prior to enacting even one more piece of legislation?
Relevance to the argument? Ad hominem anyone?
Desperate for some kind of appearance of success, I Won™ is pushing for passage of START and DREAM in the lame duck session.
John Kyl and others want to take their time for a detailed look at how START (in the words of C. Krauthammer, largely meaningless) 20% reduction in nuclear stockpiles might include language that would inhibit America’s defense capacity overall (hey, the Russians are cool with that)
Further in the words of Krauthammer, Obama’s problems are “…completely self inflicted by a man who doesn’t have executive experience.” He has also written of the ideological overreach and incompetence of governing democrats.
Much against their inclination over the past 2 years of subserviently doing the President’s bidding, the lame duckers ought to consider, at the very least, this incompetent administration’s desperate reach for “wins” in pushing START and DREAM.
I guess massive uncertainty over tax rates come January 1 can just sit on the back burner.
You, ETAB, are obviously gonna require more “training.” Repeat after me until Nov 2012: Obama…..GENIUS. Everyone else, but especially Palin…..DUMB-A$$ES. (Congratulations! Now, no matter what your citizenship status, you qualify as an official Democratic voter)
Yes, yes, all that re-education about which Kathleen Sebelius so lovingly spoke. (Are you getting all the pro-Obamacare propaganda spewing over the airwaves ? That Andy Griffith schmaltz, and more?)
Just adopt all the girl lines in this video and you’ll have the thing down pat
Dusty 323 – in reply to your latest comment in that thread (there’s no reply button to that comment).
I don’t know what flaws you refer to in the larger immigration policy, so you’ll have to be more specific. However, with regard to the Dream Act, it has its specific flaws that have nothing to do with immigration per se but with illegal entrants and how to deal with them.
Obviously, you can’t deport 10 million plus people, but there are several issues to focus on.
First – seal and secure the borders. That’s the prime and vital responsibility. Obama is refusing to do this.
Second – deal with the illegals who are here; that has to be dealt with purely for economic reasons. Let’s leave aside any emotional anecdotes or humanitarian ‘rights’ which are really not relevant.
What matters is the enormous cost to the taxpayer of supporting the illegal entrants’ use of the education system, health care, roads and other services – all without paying taxes. And, what matters is that the US taxpayer should not be supporting Mexico. It IS supporting Mexico because the illegals are sending their ‘unpaid tax money’ back to Mexico, in the billions every year, to support their impoverished relatives. Mexico provides no economic infrastructure, education, health care for this lowest level of their population. The US taxpayer is doing it.
So- they have to be ‘legalized’. For economic reasons. They have to start paying taxes. But it should not be at a further expense of the US taxpayer! No special college rates! No blanket amnesty for all your relatives! I’d even suggest a ‘head tax’ where, if you’ve been here for X number of years, without paying taxes, and want to be ‘legalized’ then, you owe the US taxpayer x-amount for each year you were here. Could be as little as $500.00 per year. But, the economic costs of choosing to come here and live off the US taxpayers should be acknowledged.
No, education is a benefit to an individual only if they are open to learning. I have always told my students that they can graduate and be even ‘stupider’ because they think they are smart when in reality, they have moved themselves into a cocoon of empty words. Sorry, but whatever ‘wit and wisdom’ I might have quite frankly has nothing to do with education from others but my own initiative.
What really benefits an individual is risk-taking experience in the real world, where you have to make decisions with results – and think over those results.
What harms an individual is cocooning them within welfare or safe tenured academic and govt jobs or whatever…where there is limited accountability for their decisions and limited risks. This is a recipe for being ‘stuck on stupid’.
I totally agree with you that people can use their education incorrectly, and that real-life experience is necessary. I’d like to point out that self-educated doctors are usually illegitimate, besides illegal, as with many other professions where higher education is necessary. But, from a lot of the immigrant students I’ve talked to, one from an undocumented family, they have a drive on the whole to make it if they get into the educational system. This is not necessarily true for all, but when you’ve come from a background where education is barely attainable, you actually try to get something out of school.
It’s important to remember that not all illegal aliens are Mexicans coming over the border to steal our money and send it back. Many here, hard-working, English-speaking, and country-loving, are forced back because they can’t afford schooling or other reasons. It doesn’t seem particularly fair to me to be sending these people back for our “economic gain”, when in reality, as I mentioned, naturalizing these people makes OUR economy money, and allows these humans to live the life they want.
Again, I want to see your doomsday scenario if we don’t seal up the borders (which policy, by the way, has led to a militarized death-trap for many people. You don’t have to agree that they should be allowed in more freely to agree that they shouldn’t be subject to violent reprisal.)
In addition, the money they send back to families is more efficient than government foreign aid, which often goes to infrastructure projects that do nothing to improve people’s lives. I suppose I’m working with the fact that one life is just as worth saving as another, and that certainly the shaky-at-best benefits we get from keeping these people from supporting their families shouldn’t trump someone getting a better life that benefits us.
I question your assertion that we shouldn’t be paying for Mexico, and say that this way, we are actually paying for foreign PEOPLE as opposed to funneling our foreign aid through their largely corrupt governments.
And, I think your argument on welfare is totally off-base. There’s a difference between taking risks and living a life where your kid is starving, and this isn’t just a sob story, but one that happens very frequently.
I’m not saying that academia isn’t a big pile of self-congratulatory smug guys that are out-of-touch with the real world. But denying someone a chance to learn is wrong. It’s easy enough to be an autodidact after you have some background, but not so easy without it.
I’m not going to leave aside human arguments. That’s really dangerous, to place an economic value ALONE on people, for a lot of obvious reasons.
Dusty – I think you are changing the topic and inserting irrelevant and false issues.
First, my comments on the fact that education does not necessarily result in critical thinking skills (which was your original point about the value of education) most certainly does not refer to technical skills of medicine, engineering and so on. Don’t introduce false analogies.
And a ‘drive to be educated’ is irrelevant to the issue – which is
that the US taxpayer should not be giving illegals cheaper tuition costs than they give to citizens.
I don’t know what you are talking about – with your reference to people being ‘forcd back’. My point about illegals is that they have ignored the right of the US to control immigration into this country and have come without such a recognition of our laws. They then work here, do not pay taxes, and send billions back to Mexico to support the lower class in Mexico. They make use of our education, health care, common services such as roads etc – but contribute no taxes for these services. I cannot accept such, and consider it an abuse of the US taxpayer.
I am certainly in favor of ‘allowing these humans to live the life they want’; I expect them to offer the same rights to US citizens. First, this means that living the life they want must be done within the laws of the land. If you want to immigrate to the US, then do it legally. If you want to work in the US, then do it legally. If you want to use the health services, then do it legally…etc.
The rights of the US citizen is not to be taxed to pay for people who disregard these laws.
Your analogy that our paying these illegal Mexicans is better than giving foreign aid to corrupt governments is a false Either-Or claim. After all, it is not the case that all foreign aid goes to corrupt government, and you fail to understand that this Mexican governmental tactic of offloading its lowest class on to the US taxpayer means that Mexico does not have to provide health care, education, jobs, etc..for these people. They live off the money sent by their relatives working illegally in the US. Mexico is using the US taxpayer …and not spending a penny of its own money on its own citizens.
My point about welfare has nothing to do with the sob story of the ‘starving kid’ but with the more usual scenario of welfare abuse where people get cocooned within its security and will not take the risks of a job. That’s hardly a novel situation.
You are diverting this topic – we are not talking about ‘denying someone a chance to go to school’ and it is completely invalid of you to introduce this theme.
The issue is – the US taxpayer subsidizing illegals to go to school, at rates below that of US students and which – quite apart from providing them with an education – also gives them a Green Card and a process to ‘green card’ all their relatives. That is the issue. It’s the subsidy and the Green Card for one and all.
As for sealing the borders – of course this should be done. No nation can permit any and all to enter; such an act removes the legal definition and obligations of ‘citizenship’. And if people intend to violate the border and the laws of the land – and if they do so violently, then violence is the reaction. I’m not sure to what you are referring here; you can’t be referring to the violence of the Mexican drug running at the border. That certainly merits violent reprisal!
No, the human element has no relevance here; that’s yet another fallacy – ad misericordiam. What is at issue is:
- the right of the US to control its borders, immigration and the definition of citizenship;
- the obligation of Mexico to support and nurture its people and not fob off its lowest class on to the US taxpayer;
- the enormous economic cost of illegals to the US taxpayer.
That’s it.
and what about the AMERICAN CITIZEN, you know the one’s that cannot get a loan no matter what, but illegals get a break, what have they done for OUR COUNTRY, NOTHING? THEY LIVE OFF OF THE AMERICAN PARENTS who can not afford to send their kids?
Dear President Barry Hussein Obama:
I’m planning to move my family and extended family into Mexico for my health, and I would like to ask you to assist me. We’re planning to simply walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico , and we’ll need your help to make a few arrangements. We plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I’m sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I’m on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:
1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. Please print all Mexican Government forms in English.
4. I want my grand-kids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.
5. Tell their schools they need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my grand-kids to see the American flag on one of the flag poles at their school.
7. Please plan to feed my grand-kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver’s license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico , but I don’t plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won’t make any special effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officer.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my housetop, put U S. flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.
13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely nice and never say critical things about me or my family, or about the strain we might place on their economy.
14. I want to receive free food stamps.
15. Naturally, I’ll expect free rent subsidies.
16. I’ll need income tax credits so that although I don’t pay Mexican taxes, I’ll receive money from the government.
17. Please arrange it so that the Mexican Government pays $4,500.00 to help me buy a new car.
18. Oh yes, I almost forgot, please enroll me free into the Mexican Social Security program so that I’ll get a monthly income in retirement.
I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who walk over to the U.S. from Mexico . I am sure that President Calderon won’t mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.
Thank you so much for your kind help.
Muy bueno!!!!
Do we have nothing to Impeach this creep for ? Honestly ! Constitutionally has he fulfilled his promise to support it and the American people ? He and his puppets should have to live on the border .
I guess if you never held a real job and had everything given to you, all your life. You would not mind giving away free money, medical, schooling, food and homes to live in paid for by the legal American tax payers. It is so easy and noble to give away the American rights to anybody for a vote! Our people better realize that there is not a border between America and Mexico. I am taking bets on which American city gets nuked first. Try getting into other countries and you would probably be shot. As we leave anybody come across that so called border we are just asking the terrorist to strike us. I just hope it is not your city or town!