Obama and Netanyahu: A Historical Perspective
On May 19, when President Obama endorsed the Palestinian goal of “the 1967 lines, with agreed swaps” (by which the Palestinians mean the 1967 lines with minor changes), without insisting the Palestinians sign a conflict-ending agreement or recognize a Jewish state with defensible borders, the president gave Israel only a few hours notice, rejected its urgent protest, and proceeded without waiting to meet the next day with its prime minister.
The next day, sitting next to the president, Prime Minister Netanyahu delivered a message as direct as diplomacy permits:
[W]hile Israel is prepared to make generous compromises for peace, it cannot go back to the 1967 lines — because these lines are indefensible. . . . And these were not the boundaries of peace; they were the boundaries of repeated wars, because the attack on Israel was so attractive.
In a high-profile panel discussion Wednesday in Jerusalem, involving Martin Indyk, Elliott Abrams, and ex-Rep. Robert Wexler, one of the topics discussed was whether Obama loves Israel in his kishkes. Wexler argued Obama had objectively shown “a lot of love,” including lobbying European leaders against recognizing a Palestinian state after “a White House session [May 20] not the easiest for an American president to get through in terms of blunt statements” by Netanyahu.
It is not clear whether Obama is still seeking to push the 1967 lines on Israel, and it is not likely his subsequent lobbying, assuming it occurred, resulted from love. It is more likely it resulted from the resolute position Netanyahu took. In that connection, it is worth noting that the confrontation regarding the 1967 lines was not unprecedented. It has happened at least three times before — and the three prior times are instructive in understanding the position Netanyahu took during the fourth.
The prior three times are described in Yehuda Avner’s invaluable recent book, The Prime Ministers: An Intimate Narrative of Israeli Leadership. Avner was present as note-taker each time, and the quotations in his book are verbatim transcriptions of his notes.
In early 1968, Eshkol came to the United States, desperate to obtain American military equipment, since France — who had previously been Israel’s supplier — had imposed an arms embargo. Eshkol explained to President Johnson and Secretary of State Rusk that the Syrian and Egyptian armies had already been rebuilt for another war, with Soviet help, and Israel lacked what it needed to defend itself.
It’s funny how our leaders have repeatedly tried to convince Israel to accept the ’67 border.It is contradictory to our own best interests and a death sentence to Jews.
Thankfully Israeli leaders are gracious,forgiving and understanding when it comes to our putz POTUS’.
Am i the only one that had a crush on Henry Kissinger at 8 yrs old?
Yes.
I’ll second that.
Part of this is explained by the simple fact that the State Department has much more invested in the Arab world than the Jewish world. Just take a brief look at the number of “Arab” and “Islamic” nations versus the number of Jewish nations. This was as true in 1947 when State tried to convince President Truman not to recognize Israel as it is today.
State is and always has been the driving force behind the “Peace Process.” Today, that “Process” has fallen to a comedy routine, or, perhaps, just a simple oxymoron. With Hamas collaborating with Fatah and the Abbas government in “Palestine” there can be no peace.
What it comes down to – today as then – is oil and numbers. They have the oil and gas, and even recent discoveries in Israel will only change that disparity at the margins. And Israel’s antagonists have the overwhelming numbers. There’s but one Jewish state, while the Arab League numbers 22, and the OIC numbers 57. In Europe Jews are outnumbered 20:1 by Muslims. Israel’s Jews are outnumbered more than 40:1 by Arabs. And Muslims outnumber Jews 100:1. But we should recall that the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans and the Byzantines are all gone; we’re still here.
True.
But, Israel should beware maneuvering itself into a Masada position, alienating even their allies.
Look, from a european pov: Foreign Minister Lieberman has continually insulted his european counterparts in really bad uncivil language. A lot of statesponsored NGOs spew out accusations of sstate anti-semitism in Europe, as well as in US academia. This is the public face of Israel currently, showing everybody the finger. Except Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. And Geert Wilders. Peres is the only exception, and even he is mostly full of platitudes. This is a problem for you, guys. When Jeffrey Goldberg is suddenly a kapo, when Lippstein is selfhating *and noone on the right challenges this language, then you know your PR efforts are spining out of control.
Just saying. Feel free to call me an antisemite for this observation
US acedemia IS anti-semitic and IN.YOUR.FACE! about it.
Please remember that the Jews (IMHO) are always the canary in the mine shaft. When people (and Europe and US acedemia are prime examples of this considering the attacks on Jews in both places) feel absolutely free to Jew-bash and and say the most hateful things – even though we have seen the result of this in our living memory – then we do find ourselves at the cusp of a world about ready to go insane – again! And it always starts with picking on the Jews. Don’t ask me why – it’s just a historical fact.
Fjord wrote, “Look, from a european pov: Foreign Minister Lieberman has continually insulted his european counterparts in really bad uncivil language. A lot of statesponsored NGOs spew out accusations of sstate anti-semitism in Europe, as well as in US academia. This is the public face of Israel currently, showing everybody the finger.”
The problem is, Fjord, what is the much sought after end-state that Europe seeks. If it could have its ‘drothers’, what would the status on the ground look like in 5-10 years? Does Europe seek Israel’s emasculation or does it want to force Israel to defend itself by refusing to come to Israel’s assistance? What does being ‘reasonable’ mean when people in Europe and academia apply it to Israel and the hard decisions it must make? If Israel returned to the ’67 borders with swaps, would the attitudes of European decision makers and American academics soften toward Israel. I say ‘no’ based upon Europe’s reaction to Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza. There was no movement toward Israel, but away from it. Israel was expected to hold on and fight. When it did not, Europeans lost some of their own hope and hated Israel more for its weakness. Whatever conscience European countries have is battered brutally every time Israel does not face her enemies with force. Europe can criticism Israel’s strength to cover their own rear-ends, but it cannot tolerate Israel’s weakness. It removes the vestiges of hope that still persist in every human that he can be free of the unreasonable demands of others as a matter of right.
I’ll never understand why the old UN boundaries are not recognized. Why are the boundaries that Jordan STOLE for 20 years always the defining line? Judah and Samaria are the breadbasket of the old Israelite country. Nobody ever asks the arabs to go back to Arabia. THEY are like a plague – a cancer – spreading all over every corner of the planet, bringing war, discontent, and mayhem with them.
Lydia — why would the ’67 borders be “a death sentence to Jews”? Those borders were not indefensible before 1967, why would they be indefensible in 2011 or 2041? Next time around, Israel will wipe out the Arab states in a six-hour war, not a six day war.
The security issue is bogus. The real reason Israel needs to rule over millions of non-Jews in “Judea” and “Samaria” is because the big pumpkin in the sky supposedly gave them the land.
sfreeman7@verizon.net — since you believe that Judea and Samaria ought to a part of Israel, are you willing to give the non-Jews of those areas the same political rights that non-Jews within Israel proper have? If not, how do you rationalize Israel retaining the lands it conquered in ’67, while treating those Arabs in the conquered territory differently than those within inside the pre-67 borders?
Nice way of sidestepping the whole idea that it’s ok to make Jews give up their historical lands – lands they were given in 47 by the UN and STOLEN by Jordan – but never EVER force arabs to give up the very lands they stole. Why do arabs have more rights than everybody else. That includes Persians, Indians, Egyptian Copts, etc. Arabs are NEVER asked to give back diddley as they expand, rape and pilage. That, to me, is a truly barbaric stance to take.
I have no problem with Israelis holding onto land given to them in perpetuity by the Big Cheese in the sky. Heck, they can claim the East Bank too for all I care, everything Lord Balfour supposedly gave them nearly a hundred years ago.
Simply annex the territory and give its non-Jewish residents the same rights that non-Jewish residents have in Israel today. Or annex the land and give up all pretense of being the only democracy in the region. Or embrace Kahanism, the logical extension of expansionist Zionism. In any case – stop doing it on the American dime, and stop the hypocrisy of believing “Eretz Israel” can be both a Jewish-ruled state and a democratic one.
Again – balderdash. You have used every leftist talking point while still ignoring the fact that the arabs – the inhabitants of Trans-Jordan – invaded Israel and ethnically cleansed it (read MURDERED the inhabitants). These SQATTERS have “historical” homes in Jordan. Why can’t they go back to their homes? Indeed, why can’t the entire arab tribe go back to arabia? Most of it sits empty, after all.
This is all DESPITE their claim of being God’s chosen people – which brought them to that land in the first place. This is man’s law we are talking about. A UN Partitian Charter. Try sticking to the facts and leave your snide comments aside.
I used to have no problem with arabs and Jews living together in harmony – but that is a pipe dream. Arabs are barbarians and you can’t live with a rabid dog in your midst. You either have to chase it out or kill it. But you certainly don’t raise your children around the foaming beast.
Finally, the Israeli’s are not living on the US’s dime. They are given credits that actually forces them to purchase our military equipment – which means they are unable to shop anyplace else. They are essentially our captives in this manner. They are also forced to give is all their technological patents, which has given us our cell phones and computers. In essence WE are living off of THEIR intellectual inventions. Another fact leftists love to ignore is that the so-called “dime” we “give” them was our price for us FORCING them to give up land with Egypt which we also match (with no strings attached) dollar for dollar to Egypt.
what are you talking about when you say that the inhabitants of trans-jordan invaded Israel and ethnically cleansed it?
do you have any problem with israel holding on to the west bank in perpetuity while refusing to grant west bank arabs the same political rights as israeli arabs?
can israel do this and continue to claim with a straight face that it is a democratic state?
@Mickey – I see I am discussing a serious and historical situation with someone who is not cogent of the facts. Any further discussion with a political idealoque is impractical and a waste of time.
mickey mischling:
“what are you talking about when you say that the inhabitants of trans-jordan invaded Israel and ethnically cleansed it?”
When Jordan invaded Israel, they slaughtered en mass the Jews in what is referred to as “East Jerusalem”. Those that survived, fled.
They then proceeded to burn down all of the Synagogues and then gave the homes of the Jews to the arabs. If you were to go into this section of Jerusalem, you will very plainly see the cut-outs on the door frames where the Jews placed their Mezuzahs. Jews, by the way, are the only people in the world who use Mezuzahs.
Then, the Jordanians took the tombstones from the Jewish graves and used them to pave their army’s latrines.
Yes, the Jordanans in fact, intentionally, barbarically, methodically, ethnically cleansed this section of jerusalem, commonly referred to as “East Jerusalem” of the Jews.
This link will show you plenty of pictures and give you further documentation. I am sure that you will not like this site, as it puts the facts out there to people in no uncertain terms. Given what is going on today, it needs to. But the truth is the truth.
http://www.masada2000.org/index.html
mickey,
1. Here’s a short video clip that demonstrates the huge strategic disadvantages and Israel’s critical security needs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfJY60zGGs8
We can’t just rely on luck or even on having a perpetual technological advantage. In 1948 both sides didn’t have much of an air force, nor missiles or rockets, and we hardly survived that with tremendous cost in casualties. In 1967 Israel preempted and destroyed most of the enemy air force while still on the ground. Today the situation is even more dangerous. Our enemies have advanced weapons including advanced aircrafts and missiles (the farther away from the border the missile is launched the better the chance of intercepting it and the more time there is for people to run for shelter, and in this regard every second matter), some even have American weapons, and terrorist organizations arm themselves with rockets and missiles. Nuclear weapon is a deterrent, but we don’t want to use it since a.) we don’t want to kill millions of people, b.) we have enemies on our borders, so Israel itself will be affected. We should be able to defend ourselves with conventional weapons to avoid a nuclear catasrophe.
2. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria (these are historical names, the “West Bank” is a relatively recent invnetion adopted by the American State Department in the 80s or some such) currently have autonomy and it should remain like that until the day they are sincerely ready to make REAL peace, which includes accepting Israel as a Jewish state, relinquishing any and all intentions to annihilate it or turn it into another Arab or Muslim state, reforming their education system and media in a way that reflects recognition of Israel’s existence and education for peace rather than educating their public and children to continue the war until Israel is destroyed and disseminating anti-Jewish propaganda the level of Geramny in the 1930s and 40s, taking responsibility for both refugee problems (the Arab refugees from Israel and the larger number of Jewish refugees from Arab states) that were a result of Arab aggression (there were no Arab refugees before they launched the 1948 war to destroy Israel. On the contrary – Arabs migrated into the Jewish territories because the Zionists developed the desert and swamp lands which created job opportunities), which means renouncing the demand that they’re descendants will be resettled in Israel proper. The descendants of the Arab refugees should be resettled in the new Arab Palestinian state and other Arab states like the majority of Jewish refugees were resettled in Israel and the rest in the West.
Their aspirations can’t come at our expense. If they want to be free and sovereign in their own state so do we. As long as they don’t accept our right to exist as a sovereign nation in security and peace we have do defend ourselves and contain their genocidal threat. We can’t afford to make a genocidal enemy stronger and make ourselves more vulnerable to its attack.
@pnina – I don’t think the arabs deserve yet another arab state. Jordan and Egypt should take their people back. Israel is such a teeny, tiny strip of dirt anyway, any further concessions will just further encourage the arabs to chip away at her.
@mickey: you are only a little bit right. Ideally all citizens should have equal rights, but there are numerous exceptions. Illegal immigrants do not gain voting privileges in America though they can attend school and university, hold certain types of jobs, and collect payment for their labors. Another example: Copts in Egypt are ten percent of the population but do not find representation in the government at that level or perhaps at all.
Re Swiss citizenship (from Wikipedia)
Swiss citizenship is propagated by Jus sanguinis. A person is a Swiss citizen at birth (whether born in Switzerland or not) if he or she is:
born to a Swiss father or mother, if parents are married
born to a Swiss mother, if parents are not married
Where parents marry after birth and only the father is Swiss, the child acquires Swiss citizenship at that point.
There are exceptions if only the mother is Swiss and she acquired Swiss citizenship on the basis of a previous marriage to a Swiss citizen.
Jus soli does not exist in Switzerland, hence birth in Switzerland in itself does not confer Swiss citizenship on the child.
Mickey, your need to foist absolute equality on those who would destroy the Jewish state does not comport with the diversity of definitions of citizenship that exist in the world. You might ask yourself why you insist upon equality that can lead to civil war within a country, when there are benign alternatives. Being a citizen of a city or canton can be just as satisfying for participants.
Arabs are not asked to give back the lands they stole, and neither are the US, China, and Russia, because they are too strong. Realpolitik, pure and simple.
The security issue is bogus? Really? Well General, then how do you explain 12,000 rockets and missiles fired into Israel over the past few years? How do you explain why over 1 million Israelis have to sleep in bomb shelters at night…….?
And, just for the record, I am Jewish, Tribe of Judah and my family is Judean. Judea is my family’s territory. My ancestors are buried there. Members of my family have always lived there. Those lines of 1967, they are not borders, nor were they ever borders. And it came at a great cost of life, and a miracle from G-D. It may interest you to know that even institutions such as West Point Military Academy cannot provide logical explanations as to how the Israelis were able to win the wars…..the odds were absolutely appalling.
That being said, I am really sick and tired of bigoted idiots such as yourself twisting and revising facts to make Jews look evil. In Israel, all non- Jews have the same rights as Jews. They vote, they hold jobs, own property, they are even members of the government. They have the right to protest, although, they do so violently.
The Jews of Israel, however, are seeing their rights being taken away, along with their land, and often, their lives. They are not allowed to worship on the Temple Mount because the Muslims built a mosque on the most sacred holy site in Judaism, which is on Jewish land. Jews are not able to pray at the tombs of our Matriarchs, Patriarchs and prophets without IDF escorts, as the arabs are trying to claim and/ or destroy them too. Examples? Rachel’s Tomb, Joseph’s Tomb, Samson’s Tomb, just to name a few.
Why is this? Because the Muslims kill Jews while they worship, and at every opportunity possible. Jews who lived in Arab lands had no rights. They were “Dhimmis” and they were abused, butchered, raped, beaten, and lived in hell simply because they were Jews. And for the miserable 19 years that Jordan held a section of Jerusalem, they butchered the Jews, stole their homes, and even used their tombstones as paving for their army’s latrines. They did not let Jews or Christians worship freely-Islam never has. So don’t give us this crap about rights.
Dull Moment —
“In Israel, all non- Jews have the same rights as Jews. They vote, they hold jobs, own property, they are even members of the government. They have the right to protest, although, they do so violently.”
You’re more or less correct. Now, since you believe that Israel ought to hold on to Judea in perpetuity, do you support giving the Arabs in Judea the same political rights that they have in Israel? If no, why?
Judea and Samaria are in Israel.
If Judea and Samaria are a part of Israel, why do the Arabs living there lack the political rights given to Arabs in other parts of Israel?
I don’t know who is feeding you this bogus information, but Judea and Samaria are in Israel and the arabs living there do have the same rights.
As Secretary of State Rusk in his
So what we would like to hear from you today is, what kind of an Israel do you want the Arabs to live with? exhibits a profound ignorance of the Arab world’s wants given the Arab League’s posturing and resolutions during the 1950s, so we witness today the same lack of cognizance.
So the borders are indefensible? So how is it that in 1967 Israel cleaned the combined Arab nations clocks in only 6 days! Todays Israel, with its advanced weapons and nuclear arsenal is what, perhaps 2 to 3 times stronger in relative terms to its situation in 1967. And by the way, in what possible scenario does anyone see Israelis being pushed into the sea and annihilated without using its nukes to obliterate the oppositions capitol?
I am strong supporter of a strong Israel- but I am an American first. I don’t like being played for a fool as anyone who bought this Bibi BS was: in November of last year, 2010, Sec of State Clinton and Netanyahu issued a joint communique posted on the Israeli foreign ministries government website, that called for, amongst other things, a peace process that would be based on the 1967 lines with land swaps. On their own website!!! Bibi counts on the ignorance of the american people to think that he can gain political advantage by throwing a hissy fit- he’s right, unfortunately.
Indy 48 — you have not correctly described the November 2010 statement. See http://tinyurl.com/63h2gsp
For what it was like, in real time, living behind indefensible borders in the lead-up to the Six Day War, I recommend this brief article: http://tinyurl.com/647hpy5
ah…the trusty holocaust card.
i guess every nation is entitled to its own paranoia, even a Goliath-like nation that has just captured its ancestral homelands (“Judea”, “Samaria”) on the last TWO days of a six day war. but if you’re going to let this paranoia guide your foreign policy, don’t do it on America’s dime.
Stop, please. You are boardering on the anti-semitic.
I understand that one could quibble with nuance here, but not on substance. From the dictionary, to “reconcile” the Palestinian and Israeli goals means ” Cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible. ” That is, the goal of an independent and viable state for Palestine based on the “67 lines with swaps, can be made to coexist and be compatible with the Israeli goal of secure and recognized borders.
And of course all that is really being rehashed here is different ways of implementing 242- which has consistently been the US position as well as carrying the weight of International Law. It’s also summed up in the beginning of 242, “Emphasising the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security;”.
For the record I wrote a paper in college on the 6 day war, specifically on Sharon’s brilliant work in the Sinai. I fully sympathize with its situation in late may with a homicidal megalomanic like Nassar at their throat. But, those in Israel who think that they can play a waiting game and “God” will see a way to give them the whole or almost all of their historical homeland, I believe these people are putting Israel and its future generations in great peril.
What waiting game? The arabs have been offered all (or 99%) they asked for and the arabs rejected it – at least twice. Why should they listen to the arab UN any longer? The arabs transfered large groups of their population to squat in lands they were utterly uninterested in before the Jews returned home.
Frankly, I’m getting pretty sick of the world holding the Jews up to an untentabled standard yet allow the arabs to run amuck like rabid dogs taking landmass after landmass. Ask the Greeks how they feel about 100,000 Turks just landing and squatting on their island? Yet the world will allow the arabs to keep this (yet again) stolen land. The entire country of Pakistan was stolen from India yet the arabs now want Kashmir. When is it ever enough?
Why the hell doesn’t this administration, or ANY American administration, start demanding, yes DEMANDING, that the Palestinians start making some concenssions for “peace?” Why is it always, ALWAYS, on the Israelis to give land back, to give what they fought for and WON, back to the people who tried to drive them out into the sea? Why is it Obama and Europeans always the ones to demand that Israeli give in, but never, ever, the Palestinians?
I’ll tell you why. It goes back to Obama’s insane foreign policy (such as it is). He still really thinks that if he backs the Muslims on ANYTHING and throws Israel under the bus, that the Muslims will love him for it and that peace will flourish throughout the land. What a joke. And that’s why he’s having such “success” with people like the Iranians, the Syrians, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood, right? He still wants to throw Israel under the bus and the Muslims STILL want all the infidels, Obama included, DEAD!
I’m so sick of seeing a staunch ally of this country sold out this way. Well, I hope they know that there are at least some people in this country that support Israel and know, really know, that they ARE the solution to the Middle East’s problems, and not the problem itself. Yet you will never see a Muslim country in that part of the world be what Israel always was and still is, and that is a democracy.
Why?
Why do we not “demand” anything from the Arabs?
For the same reasons the Liberals sympathize with muggers, rapists and murders…
Always blaming “society” and “poverty” and asking us to disarm ourselves and expand welfare, food stamps, affirmative action, hate speach and bias crime legislation.
Something WE did “made” them respond the way they do. The LA riots, looting, the Reginald Denny (misspelled sorry) beating, liberals have to get to “the root cause” and cant “demand” people behave like human beings…
Because liberals are the worst racits on the planet…
Thiers is the soft bigotry of low expectations.
They will deny it forever, but liberals believe superior White, Western societies must craft all the solutions that “other” people cant fathom for themselves…
Whereas, conservatives treat everyone exactly the same, and condemn evil behavior as a concious decision by those who commit the deeds.
Actually, the west did and they complied. It was called the roadmap for peace, and both israelis and Pals signed. The pals mostly kept their promises, but Israel stalled. Wich was how this whole conflict started, anyways. Not passing any judgment, but it went down sort of like that.
Exactly, Fnord, which promises did the “Palestinians” keep? I think we would all like to know because all of the records and the arab actions certainly state to the contrary.
The PA has broken all agreements, such as:
–to declare that Israel will be a Jewish state
- that the PA will halt all incitement and will dismantle the terrorist infrastructure
_And.the PLO also has not changed its charter denying the existence of Israel.
The 1993 agreement states, “The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security [and] commits itself to the Middle East peace process… all outstanding issues … will be resolved through negotiations…
However, the PLO never deleted its denial of Israel, while the Palestinian Authority has escalated through its school curricula claims that the entire country of Israel is “Palestine.” The volent Second Intifada in which over 1000 Israeli civilians were murdered and cynically called the Oslo Accords War, erupted after the accords were signed and without any PA request for negotiations prior to its outbreak.
The Palestinian National Council voted in 1996 to amend the charter by “canceling the articles that are contrary to the letters exchanged between the PLO and the Government of Israel.” A legal committee was supposed to re-draft the charter, but it never did so.
And here is, in Arafat’s and the PLO’s own words just how honorable they really are:
“In an interview with the Dutch newspaper “Trau” (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said: “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.”
Arafat was granted the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 for renouncing terrorism and promising to change the PLO charter’s goal of eliminating Israel. None of these promises have been kept, despite Arafat’s solemn oaths.
On September 13, 1993, the same day Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin signed the “Declaration of Principles” embodying those ideals for which he would later get the Nobel Prize, he explained his motives on Lebanese TV:
”Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.”
Yet, Israel was forced to give them many concessions. Gush Katiff was only one of them….. Since then, 8 Israeli PMs, including Barak, Sharon, Olmert, to Netanyahu made numerous concessions and offers. The arabs rejected every one of them. Everytime the arabs were given land, they set up missile bases in which to attack Israeli citizens. In the past few years over 12,000 rockets and missiles were fired into Israeli civilian areas.
1 million Israelis sleep in bomb shelters every night- another little item the MSM will never tell you. recently, they even fired at a yellow school bus and a child was killed. They broke into a Jewish home one night and violently butchered a entire family- including a baby. And, while at prayer at Joseph’s tomb, they murdered a Jew at prayer. In the past week, on 2 separate occasions, they threw bricks down 11 stories at Jews praying at the Kotel -the Wailing Wall. There is no “Road Map for Peace”. Only a map for death of the Jews, and Pieces torn from Israel. The arabs and their supporters can go to hell.
I think I might disagree with Richman on one issue he presented – I’d have to talk to him about it. But one thing’s fer shur, he is rapidly becoming one of my favorite commentators on Israeli/Palestinian matters. He presents things in such a clear, coherent (and, importantly, civil) manner.
Greetings:
I grew up in the Bronx of the ’50s and ’60s. Our rather small neighborhood’s two predominant demographics were those of Jewish heritage and those of irish heritage. Needless to say, the Six-Day War in 1967 was a topic of discussion in our neighborhood, and personally with me as I was expecting to be drafted into our military. One evening, my father, born in southwest Ireland and a WW II graduated infantryman, took some time to reveal his assessment of the situation to me. When I asked him what the Israelis should do about the “Palestinians”, my father said, “Take them down to the river [Jordan], point ‘em east, and give ‘em a decent headstart.”
Recently, I have been reading Benny Morris’ “1948″ and Michael B. Oren’s “Six Days of War”. Both books indicate that some of the Israeli military and political leadership saw something similar as the best strategy, but were over-ruled more for political than military reasons.
As long as the Arabs, the “Palestinians”, the Muslims keep the millstone of Islam around their necks, I can see no hope of resolving this problem. Population transfers, with or without compensation, is the only thing that makes sense to me. Nobody got very upset when the Jewish populations were banished from Arab/Muslim countries.
Yes – something close to a million people banished from their homes with the arabs stealing their property and wealth. Talk about a trail of tears. Most of them had to walk to Israel.
This exact merciless historical account have frightened some(Jews) and have irritated others like mischling.”That is allowed to Jupiter it is not allowd to a bull”.But Israel is not a bull but the surviving David and one can`t throw anything from the History.
In Years of Upheaval, Henry Kissinger reflected on the remarkable nature of Israel’s not infrequent resistance to U.S. pressure, given Israel’s unique dependence on America. It takes, he wrote, “a special brand of heroism to turn total dependence into defiance.”
I protest the word “defiance”. It’s not defiance, it’s a perfectly legitimate act of the Israeli government setting the Israeli policy regarding Israeli security. Israel is a sovereign state, not an American colony. We’re a free people, not a nation of slaves that exists to serve a foreign master. Nor are we rebeling teenagers who defy their father’s authority. The Israeli government is not installed by the US, but elected by the Israeli people and has the obligation to act in defense of the Israeli people. If the US adopts a policy the Israeli government deems mistaken and a threat to Israel and its people it has the right and the duty to reject it and follow its own more sensible policy. Israel takes the American interests and positions into account and often abides by them, and the US can exert all kinds of pressures, but the final decision regarding Israeli policy is legitimately Israel’s. Not accepting American dictats on every issue is not defiance, but a legitimate course of action for every sovereign state.
The thing is that if you’re forced to make suicidal decisions dependency will vanish anyway together with your life, so you have nothing to lose. If someone shoves you to the edge of a cliff, puts a gun to your head and tells you: “Jump over or I’ll shoot”, you have more of a chance to survive pushing back than jumping into the abyss. Existential threat is the line where American pressure stops having an effect. You can’t force a person to commit suicide on pains of death because both courses of action produce the same result. He will have more of a chance to survive by resisting than by complying. In this case resisting is the rational course of action, no matter how risky it is, since the other alternative is more dangerous.
And Israel isn’t a charity case. It’s been very useful to the US during the Cold War, being a strong regional ally and providing the US with invaluable intelligence such as photocopies of Khrushchev’s secret speech that exposed Stalin’s crimes, hard evidence that dealt a harsh blow to the image of the USSR and to its supporters in the West, a fully working Mig (Israel was the first in the Western bloc to capture and fly a Mig), an advanced Soviet radar system Israel airlifted in its entirety, and many other items that helped the US keep its edge. We’ve been more helpful than many of the US’ European allies. Yet we’re treated with contempt and about to be fed to the wolves, and accused of “defiance” for not obediently submitting to American folly that puts us in harms way.
Obama doesn’t treat Israel like an ally. He doesn’t use the usual diplomatic behind the scenes channels to reach a compromise that will take into account not only the current American demands, but also the most vital Israeli interests and concerns. He makes crcucial decisions that have a grave impact on Israel and its future and announces them publically without consulting the Israeli goverment or taking its concerns into account. He treats Israel and its elected leaders with hostility and disdain. In addition to that Israel has no voice in the majority of the American mass media. Under those circumstances Netanyahu chose to voice Israeli positions and concerns publically and address the congress because Israel is left with no other recourse and no other way to make its case to the American people. Israel can’t just silently submit when its existential interests are on the line. No country should be expected to do that.
But Kissinger concluded that:
“Israel’s obstinacy, maddening as it can be, serves the purposes of both our countries best. A subservient client would soon face an accumulation of ever-growing pressures. It would tempt Israel’s neighbors to escalate their demands. It would saddle us with opprobrium for every deadlock.”
So true. After 18 years of “peace” process, or rather war by diplomacy and deception process, which I wrongly supported most of the time I came to the conclusions that its Israel’s compliance rather than intransigence that brought us to the brink of disaster. Kissinger’s remark was prescient and describes the process of our ever deteriorating position with chilling accuracy. The Arabs never conceded on any issue, while Israel made far reaching concessions and far reaching proposals the Arabs rejected. The Arabs simply don’t accpet the Jewish state. They either want all the Israeli Jews dead or expelled or they’re willing to “compromise” on Israel turning into another Arab-Muslim state. That’s as far as they’ll go. They won’t respond to pressure, while Israel is squeezed to make concession after concession and proposal after proposal in return for nothing but more terror and more rockets. The result? Exactly as Kissinger described it: “A subservient client would soon face an accumulation of ever-growing pressures. It would tempt Israel’s neighbors to escalate their demands. It would saddle us with opprobrium for every deadlock.”
Why? Because pressuring Israel is the only course of action that produces any results at all. Trying to pressure the Arabs is like banging your head against the wall, they won’t compromise on any major issue, so you pressure the more pressurable side. The more concessions Israel makes, the more the Arabs and the world demand. Israeli self-defense in the face of massive terror campaigns and daily rocket attacks has been delegitimized. The Arab narrative is fully and unquestionably adopted by Western academia and media. Everywhere initiatives to boycott and embargo Israel flourish. Our mere right to exist is called into question. At some point we have to draw the line or else we’re doomed to annihilation.
A majority of the American people stand behind you. Our cr@phead-in-chief has his jackboot on our throat, too. It’s going to be a long 2 years. Watch your backs and we have you in our prayers.
*sigh* There are a lot of anti-semites posting here. Let’s be clear about something – THERE ARE NO PALESTINIANS!!!!!! THEY ARE ARABS!!!!!!
Look up your history, folks. When Rome FINALLY beat the Israeli’s and scattered them into Europe they renamed the land Palestinia and forbade the remaining inhabitants to even speak their own language. If there any Palistinians they are the Jews – the people who remained.
Please name me a pal before the Egyptian, Arafat. Please provide examples of their language, writings or currency. How about archealogical sites (beside the temple mount that is clearly built on top of the old holy grounds of the Jews).
Further, I find it interesting that the arabs don’t even have the letter “P” in their language and refer to themselves as BAListinians. The Gaza pals are Egyptian arabs and the Judean/Samarian pals are Jordanian arabs. Make THEM go home and stop allowing arabs to steal land!
Lolly,
You are correct. There is no “P” letter, or sound in arabic. Only in the Canaanic-Biblical Hebrew language groups which the arabs do not speak. The names “Palestinian” and “Palestine” is Greek. When the Romans invaded they renamed Israel as a way of separating the Jewish people from their land and beliefs, and gave them the name as an insult and reminder of the Greeks who had invaded previously, and who the Jews had a hard time defeating. Our holiday of Channukah commemorates this war and the miracles that took place.
Yassar Arafat coined the term ” Palestinian,” in the 70′s as a way of trying to lay claim to the land of Israel, History, and the archeology prove differently, which is why the arabs try to prevent the Jews from doing Archeological digs, while they destroy anything they find.
Arafat, who claimed to be born in “Palestine” was actually born in Egypt. The majority of the arabs came in as migrant workers after the Ottoman Empire fell. They saw the Jews rebuilding their land and draining the swamps, “making the desert bloom.” They became squatters and are originally from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Kwait, and Arabia.
The fact remains, there is no such group of people called “Palestinian” There is no trace of such a culture, history, houses of worship, language, pottery, coinage, or any other archeological artifacts. What is found is in Hebrew, is Jewish and backs up a lot of what is written in the Torah.
Good grief, lolly. You sure have your work cut out for you. Israeli government leaders, from Prime Ministers on down, refer to them as Palestinians. The Israeli government’s website, including the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, refers to them as Palestinians. Why don’t you correct them first?
Biggest mistake they ever made was to adopt their enemies terms. Just as they did when they started calling Judea and Sumaria the west bank. Seriously! Sometimes the Israelis are their own worst enemy!
I have held the position that Obama’s statements about “1967 lines” with mutually agreed upon land swaps were of little or probably no significance. Richman is the first commentator holding the opposite view whose arguments to the contrary that I have been able to understand. (And believe me, I have tried to make sense of the others’ arguments.) I do see his point and I will have to think about it. Maybe he’ll change my mind, maybe he won’t. I’ll have to think about it.
What makes subjects like this more difficult is the language of diplomats. Nuance. Code words. Diplo-speak. Diplomatic maneuverings. I never was much good at that.
On another comment above, – yes, UN Resolution 242 does speak of “the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.” But it also, in a very contradictory manner, through careful wording, allows for Israel to keep *some* territory won in the 1967 war. There is a brief but good discussion of this subject at wikipedia, under UN Resolution 242. (There are also good discussions at legal blogs about how “international law”is applied only selectively, and sometimes simply ignored by the international community. It has been said, only half-jokingly, that the term should be “international guidelines” instead.)
On yet another comment above, there is never going to be a transfer of the Palestinian (or “Arab”, if you insist) population from the West Bank. Nor is Israel ever going to annex the West Bank. It’s simply not in the cards. Never going to happen. There’s no use in wasting time or bandwidth on it. Don’t get me wrong, I am one of the most hawkish people you can find regarding dealing with Israel’s enemies. And I have *zero* sympathy for the various Palestinian positions/stances/demands. But let’s stick to plausible options in our support for Israel.
When they meet for the purpose of dividing the land God is going to be angry. when they say ‘peace and safety’ sudden destruction comes apon them and they shall not escape…The Day Of THe Lord is oh so close people. the only qustion is ..Who is going to fire first?
Joel chapter 3