No More ‘Peace Talks,’ Please
The current round of Israeli-Palestinian meetings in Jordan ended with a Palestinian decision to leave. “The Israelis brought nothing new in these meetings,” said one official, without bothering to note the obvious — neither did the Palestinians.
The talks were the result of a Quartet plan to have Israelis and Palestinians make proposals on territory and security in hopes of reaching a deal in 2012. Questions abound, but the most important is, “How many more times will this farce be played out without recognition of the real and incompatible bottom lines of the two parties?”
It is that fundamental incompatibility — not the lack of pressure or lack of bribes — that prevents the present creation of the mythical “two-state solution” embedded in the Oslo Accords, negotiated without U.S. participation, and signed in 1993.
From the Israeli side, Oslo had three underlying assumptions:
- That Palestinian nationalism could be understood as the mirror image of Jewish nationalism (Zionism);
- That Palestinian nationalism could find its full expression in a West Bank and Gaza Strip state; and
- That there is a price Israel, the United States, and Europe could pay to the Palestinians that would overcome any remaining Palestinian objection to Jewish sovereignty in the region.
All three assumptions have been proven wrong.
Jewish nationalism was based on the idea of “regularizing” Jews in their historic homeland. David Ben-Gurion is said to have wanted to see Jewish policemen arresting Jewish criminals because that’s what “normal” people do. For most Zionists, statelessness was an impediment to normalcy; getting a state was the highest priority, even if that required territorial compromise.
Israelis projected their own definition of nationalism onto the Palestinians, reflected in the idea of territory for peace, i.e., a Palestinian state at peace with Israel.
Palestinian nationalism is not based on a passion for normalization through getting a state as quickly as possible, but rather on the idea that “their land” was usurped by Israel in 1948. Therefore it is more important for Israel to be wiped out than for a Palestinian state to exist. It is more important to get all of the territory than to achieve benefits by compromising to get part of it.
The Palestinians already have a state. It’s called Jordan and they should really move there if they find life in or near Israel so offensive. Israel is the only country that I know of that is constantly attacked by its neighbors, wins every war as a result of those attacks, but is expected to give land back to the losers who attacked them! If I were the Israelis, I would give back nothing. And as for the Israel’s right to exist? It already DOES exist, and so long as they have a strong military they will keep existing. Nobody guarantees you a “right” to exist. Countries have a “right” to exist as long as they can defend their own borders. So long as nobody can invade them or destroy them, that country already has the “right” to exist. Do you really, honestly, think that if Mexico could take over the United States it wouldn’t do it? Or if China could take over Japan, it wouldn’t try it? Countries exists because their are strong enough to defend their borders and their independence. If they can’t, then they end up like Libya, at the mercy of other countries that can successfully attack it.
Actually, the Palestinians already have three states: Jordan, Gaza and the West Bank. (Or, if the idea of Jordan as a Palestinian state makes you, um, uncomfortable—admittedly, the Palestinians only make up about 65% of Jordan’s population, officially (heh)—we can call it two states: Gaza and the West Bank).
So what we should really be talking about is the Four-State Solution (or, Three-State Solution).
To be sure, what the Palestinians are going for is the No-State Solution.
The No (Jewish)-State Solution, that is.
And they’re absolutely certain they’ll get it. Eventually.
File under: As long as it takes.
Bravo LiberyShip, bravo!
– FF
There will never be a final resolution to this problem until one side is utterly defeated. The differences are irreconcilable. One side wants to be left alone and one side wants to wipe the other off the face of the earth. I defy anyone to tell me where there are grounds for compromise….
Actually if Israel ceased to exist this afternoon the Palestinians would simply look for someone else to conquer for some other legitimate reason. The concept of peace being the normal condition of state to state relationships does not exist in the Arab world.
How right you are Bob. Indeed, there has already been much chatter over these past years as certain Muslims have been flexing their muscles about “re-conquering” Al-Andalus (since, once it was “holy Muslim land” for even a second, then it becomes part of the Umma forevermore, and, like a missing finger, is ached over and groaned over if lost, until it can be “re-attached to the ‘Muslim Mother-ship’”).
To the uninitiated, Al-Andalus is Southern Spain to you and I. Once “touched” by a Muslim, a land is forever “theirs.” Which is exactly their attitude with Israel as well. If the Mexicans thought this way, they’d have mounted 100 years of raids, suicide bombers, attacker, raiders sneaking through tunnels, etc — all to take “back” Texas. Buildings in Dallas would be blown up, the possibilities, endless. Alas, however, the Mexicans do not behave in this way, and thus we Americans cannot possibly understand the perversity of what Israel must go through on a daily basis.
So, again, there is a perfect example of your thesis. And indeed, Iran, or the I.R.I. rather, has ensured that their main offensive rocket can and does right now easily reach that entire Southern segment of Europe. The Shahab-3 I believe it’s called (with or without nuclear warhead — that choice will be available in the very near future, customer, please be patient, as this very year it is expected).
Why is it painfully obvious to everyone but the Palestinians that their claim to land possesed by Israel is based on lies? Continuing to pursue that claim shows why their hope in doing so rests with the help of the United States, because our recent culture of exchanging the truth for lies in becoming noteworty around the globe.
“How many more times will this farce be played out without recognition of the real and incompatible bottom lines of the two parties?”
Yeah, I suppose you could look at it like Col. Sanders negotiating with the chickens but I think you’re overlooking the other obvious flaw in the system – the world at large doesn’t want peace. The “Peace Process” has produced exactly what it was intended to produce, a 40-year proxy war. The continual strife and unrest advances agendas, furthers careers (imagine how quickly your job as a “Peace Process Coordinator” would disappear if peace suddenly broke out), and provides a useful rational for governments to grab more power.
There has never been any intention for peace because this point “That there is a price Israel, the United States, and Europe could pay to the Palestinians that would overcome any remaining Palestinian objection to Jewish sovereignty in the region.” is absolutely true. There was a price, and it wasn’t initially the extinction of Israel, but the Palestinians have learned that not complying with their agreements is a very lucrative business. Now the United States, Europe and the rest of the world could have enforced the agreements but they choose not to, they choose not to have peace. You can’t have a Peace Agreement when the “honest peace brokers” are neither honest nor peace brokers.
An excellent column, an excellent overview, Ms. Bryen.
I fllly agree!
An excellent column, an excellent overview.
“Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an ‘Israelite’ or a ‘Hebrew.’” First Sentence of the First Chapter (entitled “Identity Crisis”) of the 1980 “Jewish Almanac.” Read it for yourself at http://www.missiontoisrael.org/id-crisis-pics.php. The Jewish Almanac’s confession that today’s Jews are not genetic Israelites is also confirmed in all four major Jewish Encyclopedias.
So we are not descendants of the Israelites? Oh, my! And this is documented? O Lawdy, Lawdy, Halaluyah, and everyone say AMEN! What a relief. Now JewHate will go away. I can hardly wait to spread the news!
Um, there is just one thing: We are called both terms by the goyim. It is thus they who define us with all their self-directed hatred projected to us. Some wit once said also that a Jew is anyone crazy enough to call himself or herself one.
Does anyone really think that we Jews can make some kind of a disconnect argument between the Israelites and the Jews by citing this DNA thingie? Eh? I think not. Also there is this continuous documented historical flow from way back to Sinai to the present day. Thus, somehow, we lost the DNA connection? Oh, well, guess we’ll just have to live with this mystery. Ahhh, the mystery of it. Where O where did our DNA go, do you suppose?
Sparky: “So we are not descendants of the Israelites?” I didn’t say that but your own almanacs, encyclopedias, and historians.
If jews did not exist anymore, could you please explain to me how I can rightly spot , 5 times out of 10 minimum, a so-called “jew” just by his/her looks ?!…
Annex the West Bank, allowing its Arabs residdents to continue to live there as permanent residents with no voting rights if they wish to and if they accept that they are guests of the Jewish state.
Defend this position before anyone who dares to state that Israel has become an apartheid state by screaming at the top of your lungs “how dare you dare you dare you you’re an antisemite an antisemite an antisemite God gave the land to the Jews the Jews the Jews Jordan Is Palestine is Palestine is Palestine!!!!!”
That’s the psycho viewpoint, common here at PJ Media. The sane viewpoint is that Israel must continue to hold on to the West Bank, until a suitable Palestinian peace partner can take over. Meanwhile, no further settlements, except the ones that are within the Clinton parameters should be tolerated.
I agree with other commenters, Ms. Bryen recited an excellent summary of why the peace process could never succeed.
However, when it comes to what to do, I think you are still a captive of peace process thinking. Is it really in the long term, a wise thing to invest and build the Palestinian economy in the West Bank? For what purpose? So that they will eventually accomodate and make peace with Israel when you just recited exactly why that will never happen. You still accept the fallacy that economic prosperity diminishes the desire to make war. It is a fallacy of wishful thinking. It is the wealthiest nations in the world who have launched the most devastating wars in human history. Nazi and Kaiser Germany, Napoleonic France, Imperial Japan were all far wealthier than their neighbors when they embarked on wars of aggression against their poorer neighbors. The West Bank Arabs should be ignored and allowed to bring their economy down to the level it would really be if there wasn’t billions of annual aid provided to them every year.
You cannot argue with Steve’s dead-on logic! Rather, let them wither on the vine, or more realistically, be taken over by Hamas the SECOND — or again, more realistically — 2 days after Israel stops using HER OWN military to prop up the Palestinian Authority! Amazing isn’t it: the truth.
Then with Hamas ruling over all Quote, End Quote “Palestinian Land” ANY, and I mean ANY attack can be viewed as an attack by a “hostile entity” just as rockets are today that emanate from Gaza. This notion will simply be extended to all lands controlled by Hamas. Then at least Israel will have a wee bit more “moral authority” with which to defend herself PROPERLY — at least a little more than the whores of the European Human-Rights councils currently allocate Israel and (lest I forget) before the Guardian runs yet more “multi-part specials” on how Israel is an “Apartheid country” with Syria meanwhile torturing daily 13 year old children then indifferently, and with the full pomp of putting out the trash, dumping their horribly disfigured bodies outside, in the middle of the road for all to see.
All of this… all of this, mind you occurring right next to — not 100 Kilometers from — where Harriet Sherwood and her coterie of Israel haters are writing ever so self-importantly about how “horridly” Israel treats Palestinian “children” like, for example the 17 year old “child” who slit the throats of the Kogel children and actually managed to sever one of the Kogel family’s heads off! This is the righteous work of the British press, “fighting for the underclass” but not if they’re Syrian apparently — and only in Israel for some reason that nobody at the Guardian can quite explain.
I couldn’t agree more with the above mentioned. The PA leadership has proved lack of competence in basic nation-building as documented by David Schenker in his study of “Palestinian Democracy & Governance”. If the flow of EU and US funds stopped overnight, the collapse of the semi-state would be instant. The right policy for Israel to follow is that of annexation of the ostensible West Bank. The policy should be of constant growth wherever it would be opportune. – Let the Pal-Arabs live within Israel’s border, but only those who pledge allegiance to the Jewish State. The rest has the Kingdom of Jordan as their homeland. The after-match of such a reasonable position will be, that Israel continues the proliferation of IDF, so the slogan “Don’t mess with IDF” settles in Israel’s neighbors.
bravo! this is one of the best columns I’ve read on the subject in months. would that the Obama administration would read it. unless it’s also appearing on huffington post, tho, there’s no chance of that!
The Peace Process is not about peace. It’s about dolling out chunks of Israel, over time, in return for Arab good will and acquiescence to American goals in the wider mid east.
It’s about lubricating American machinations in the mid east with the best possible lubricant when it comes to dealing with Arab peoples – Israeli blood.
This will continue until American goals are met, or Israel is terminally weakened, whichever comes first. As American goals will never be met . . .
Every defensive technology innovation Israel comes up with can and will be used to further pressure Israel into shrinking its size.
War, Religion, Politics, and the Super Bowl
Two centuries ago, the English poet William Wordsworth wrote that “the world is too much with us,” essentially meaning that even in the early 1800′s humanity was too consumed with material things and the affairs of the day to smell the roses.
The alternative is escapism, ignoring what’s going on in the world around us, which can be worse than materialism.
Some subjects like war and peace, politics and all its ramifications, religion and all its controversy, politics and all its dirt, and the Super Bowl with all its manic craziness just can’t be avoided. Hence, I’m offering a few random, unsolicited commonsensical solutions for current issues. They are admittedly far from original but are thoughts worth repeating.
IRAN: Except maybe for some Iranians, few sane people believe the Islamic Republic of Iran is developing a nuclear program at the same time it’s developing short�and long-range missile technology in the interests of providing nuclear-generated electricity in a land with more oil resources than indoor toilets.
As they stall for time to execute�their avowed plan to eradicate Israel from the face of the planet and ignite a worldwide cataclysm to bring about the End Times, Iran’s president and ayatollahs must be chuckling in their hummus as America’s president continues his asinine quest for dialogue with maniacs in lieu of confronting the reality that Islam is thirsting for the Apocalypse.
COMMON SENSE SOLUTION: Not that they need it, but Israel should forget waiting for a green light from America’s Waffler-in-Chief and launch a pre-emptive strike to eliminate the Iranian threat sooner rather than later. More stalling will only make the job harder and the US will be blamed no matter what happens.
War sucks but it sure beats Armageddon.
POLITICS: The inherently dirty business of politics has gotten dirtier by the week in the past year with the president’s attack/slime machine in overgear and Republicans engage in internecine warfare which only serves to furnish campaign fodder for Obama and to enhance the egos of the GOP candidates.
The president’s billion dollar re-election effort, ably-assisted by his mainstream media, has already dismantled Michelle Bachmann, Herman Caine, and Rick Perry and is prepared to destroy whomever is eventually nominated to oppose him. The remaining hopefuls can only bring on greater damage to themselves and to the GOP if they allow the bloodletting to persist.
When the Muslim-tainted Obama resorted to citing Jesus Christ and the Golden Rule as inspirations for class warfare and Obamacare at the National Prayer Breakfast, they had to realize he will stop at nothing in order to get the opportunity for four more years to drag the nation into oblivion. . . (Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=12461.)