National Health Insurance Reform Done
The passage of a bill that will supposedly “reform” private health insurance, while radically altering the manner by which medical services are delivered to American citizens, was achieved with much drama, less prudence, and no judgment as Congress voted 219-212 in favor of a measure widely seen as seriously if not fatally flawed — even by many of its proponents.
Fittingly, it was in the last few hours of debate that the dishonesty of reform supporters reached its zenith. A toothless executive order piously reiterating the language of the Hyde Amendment banning federal funds for abortion was signed by the president, thus supplying a fig leaf for “pro-life” Democrats, allowing them to vote in favor of the bill and giving Speaker Nancy Pelosi the margin she needed for victory.
But as Jennifer Rubin points out, “If ObamaCare says, ‘We will subsidize abortion,’ no executive order can effectively say, ‘but not really.’”
On such trivialities was the partisan coalition of Democrats cobbled together to pass the bill.
Indeed, in a striking and ironic twist to the entire debate over nationalized health insurance, the president’s call for a bipartisan effort was met not by proponents of the bill, but by its enemies. The 34 Democrats who opposed the measure made the bill the president’s first success in creating a bipartisan coalition, although the fact that it almost derailed the effort to realize his dream of massive federal regulation of the insurance industry probably gives him little cheer.
What hath Congress wrought? The difference between what the president and congressional Democrats say the bill will do, and the likely effect the legislation will have on the lives of American citizens, is a chasm whose depth and girth is unknowable. What we know is that more people will have health insurance, and that those who currently have no insurance due to a pre-existing condition will be able to purchase policies. Beyond that, Democratic claims such as insurance that offers more benefits while costing less and no change in most citizens’ insurance plans are viewed with a jaundiced eye by serious analysts. If we didn’t know any better, we would accuse the Democrats of lying about this, except they wouldn’t lie about something as critically important as health insurance, would they?
It is written that doctors and hospitals will receive less in payments from the government for treating Medicare patients, but nobody believes that. It is written that the government will dutifully find hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicare fraud, but no one believes they will find as much as they are saying they will. It is written that state Medicaid programs will be just fine with the sudden influx of 30 million new subscribers, although the balance between federal and state contributions to the program will not change and nobody believes the burden on states won’t skyrocket.
In short, despite the fact that no one believes some of the basic actuarial and fiscal assumptions that under-gird this legislation — no one who isn’t besotted with partisan fervor — it was rammed down the throats of the American people with as much cynicism, trickery, deliberate obfuscation, and budgetary tomfoolery as has ever been seen for a major piece of legislation in the history of the republic.
Well we have the Commerce Clause…so I guess that trumps the entire rest of the Constitution!
We are toast~!
Ruining America for “Social Justice”! When it come to 2010, just remember what Nixon said in ’68: “This time, vote like your whole world depended on it.” Because it does.
I am ready for a counter-revolution.
For less than 800,000 taxpayers’ dollars. Told you something, such as Stupak’s integrity, is cheap.
Poor delusional Stupak, whom did he think he’s fooling? The stupid Michigan pro-lifers who have voted for him? The God he professed to worship? The Catholic Church? May be the unborns who would never be born to save “federal” healthcare dollars?
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/mi01_stupak/morenews/20100319faagrant.html
I refuse. I will not buy health insurance, and I will not pay the fine.
Go ahead.
Come and get me.
“This was rammed down the throats of the American people with as much cynicism, trickery, deliberate obfuscation, and budgetary tomfoolery as has ever been seen for a major piece of legislation in the history of the republic.”
You wouldn’t have a problem with this if it included shamnesty… and you won’t when they bring a shamnesty bill up… and do the same thing.
All I can say is eat it tea bagers.
When we look back in 2060 (or 2030), we will be looking back from the perspective of what caused the financial and political collapse of a great power. The republic and the government then will not look like ours. No country has survived a financial collapse without political instability leading to violence or totalitarianism.
The collapse has been coming with our previous entitlement insanity, this will merely accelerate the downfall. The collapse will now come sooner rather than later. There is literally now way to pay for all this while maintaining a prosperous economy.
Does anyone else feel that an incredibly important line has now been crossed? There have been few times in American history when something this important has happened! Are you going to cower down now and hope thing get better? Or?
Well, Soros sure got his money’s worth from his private political party!
This is a very dark day for the United States.
I doubt the R’s can ever fully repeal or defund this. The solution is not civil war, but secession. America as we know it is on the path to disintegration.
Mr.Moran:
shorter Matt Yglesias:
“If reform passes and is signed into law, then immediately Barack Obama’s position in history is secured. When people look back from 2060 on the creation of the American welfare state, they’ll say that FDR, LBJ, and BHO were its main architects, with Roosevelt enshrining the principle of universal social insurance into law and Obama completing the initial promise of the New Deal.”
Perhaps so…or equally it might be the case that he will be looked back on as the 21st century’s answer to the James Buchanan Administration…
…when it all broke apart.
Certainly. listening to Pelosi’s peculiar little sniggers and watching her strange “hand-jive” gestures whie giving her speech before the final vote, one must have wondered what kind of nut was standing in the well on the floor of the House.
This can weaken our resolve or strengthen our resolve.
Take your pick.
USA or USSA?
Why even have a military any more? They might break a nail!
The pussification of America is in full swing now…
Asta la freakin’ vista, America.
Press #55 for English
To all of the delusional conservatives out there who thought they could depend on a Stupak to do the right thing you are just not thinking. It was never going to be. And to those that think 34 democrats did the right thing, you’re doubly delusional. It was all worked out in back room deals. It happened the way those that won 2008 wanted it to play out. Oh, and to any of you out there that love to talk about there not being any difference between the two parties……well, seek political mental health.
My beloved country is worse off than it has ever been. Being almost 66 y.o. mitigates the pain based on number of years I’ll have to live with it.
Just as Prohibition got repealed when the violence got too much, so will this be repealed too when the cost, both political and economical becomes too much to bear. The Democrats have done something historic, but not they way they think they have.
My Congressman — who voted YES tonight — just got a nasty note from me. I will be working hard to see him removed from office in November.
Wah, wah, wah….just eat your Cheerios instead of throwing them on the floor, and then take a nap.
To 11. marsouin
Secession can never work because much as ppl flee from CA to other states leftwinger will flee their utopia and then move to the free states…
Slavery or war are the only 2 options when dealing with collectivism…
11. You act as though there’s a difference between the two. Even if the Feds don’t resist succession for want of resources, the parasites will scream and riot if we rip them off of us. They will need to be put down violently. It will be bloody. As for the next step, we go to the courts and the jury box before we turn to the ammo box. We can yet nullify this law on several grounds: breach of federalism, writing a spending bill in the Senate, tax not applied uniformly throughout the Union, bill of attainder.
Texas governor Rick Perry has mentioned secession, I wonder if he’s serious and if it’s legally possible.
Need to look into that.
#14 promoguy – that is a very insightful post. Obama has had many failures so far, the Chicago Olympics, the outreach to ME countries, dealings with Russia, perceptions of weakness (bowing), failure to close Guantanemo, etc etc. Interestingly, the whole healthcare thing was outsourced to Pelosi – Obama was as usual disinterested in the real mechanics. This is landmark legislation for sure, and he will always be remembered for this. Exactly how has yet to play out.
We are now living in interesting times!
To 19. jb
Secession is legal under the US Constitution. The thing is states can secede from the US Constitution but the federal government can and once it does then the states no longer have to obey it because it becomes a foreign power.
The states would not secede they would merely state that the federal government has seceded from them and thus is no longer valid. They would then simply have to obey the constitution and elect a new congress, president, etc and they would be legal.
Everyone needs to quit crying about how crappy this whole thing is and get out their checkbooks. It’s time to donate to clear thinking non-socialist politicians who will defeat these morons who jammed this down our throats.
And to those dems that like this legislation – there will be hell to pay in November and every year after that. The silent majority is motivated and angry – people that I know who never cared to register to vote are getting ready to vote these idiots out of office.
O no, the poor darkies in this country will actually be treated seriously in OUR hospitals! How disgusting!
We lost site of the ball and lost. Abortion could always be fixed with an executive order. The two primary issues were (1) the deficits and (2) raising our costs while depriving us of services and options.
As a gift to the pro-islamic terrorist, anti-war constituency we will now have skyrocketing voluminous deficits from here on out that will not only eliminate our military hegemony, but make sure future military engagements will either be at the behest of the Saudis or as a more minor part of a UN coalition.
As far as the costs go, we all know that tort reform and accounting reform would reduce them. Some have estimated these reductions to be about 40%. But instead of tort reform, seniors and women have to bear the brunt thru service reductions. So the trial lawyers triumph again at our expense.
My question is–are these issues now dead?
20. jb:
I think perry was talking to a very texan-libertarian crowd when he was saying that stuff. What you’ve got to understand is that secession talk is…just talk. We are americans first, texans second. We see texas as the ideal for america, but that doesnt mean we are ever going to walk away from america.
Passing this bill was the logical extension of cherished myths, such as:
• Increasing government expenditures while simultaneously lowering taxes is good for the economy.
• “Rich people” can easily afford to raise the standard of living of everyone else.
• People who make irresponsible decisions must be shielded from the consequences of their choices by shifting costs to those who make responsible decisions.
• Jobs are leaving this country not because it’s too expensive to do business but because corporations (but not unions) are short-sighted, evil and greedy.
• Citizens might be mad as hell today, but they will forget their anger before the next election.
Except for a few dissenters, the Democratic party has bet the present and future jobs of nearly every American on the supposed correctness of their Keynesian ideals. If conservatives can be grateful for anything, it’s that economic controversies between liberals and conservatives are now going to be resolved once and for all. If, in the wake of this sweeping new entitlement legislation, the economy rebounds and prospers, I will be duly humbled and become a convert to Socialism. On the other hand, if the economy worsens, as I expect, I will feel not merely vindicated but quite unforgiving.
Marsouin
Remember the 18th Amendment?? This thing can be defunded and fully repealed if we elect people who have the damn spine to do what it is necessary. If it means we have to cut the entitlement programs, expel the unions from Washington, take away all government pensions that is not military related, eliminate pork and so on and so forth. Another thing, once the Republican Party gets back in power, draft a bill that will destroy Washington’s power. Have each State pay their Senators and Congressional members their salary. Give the American people in each state the power to vote on how much money they are willing to pay their representatives. Benefits will be the responsibility of their home state. And here’s more, Senators and Congressional members will use their own money to pay for their staff, their transportation, their living expenses, etc . Once elected, all their properties and possessions will be under lien that is managed by the State Government regardless of what party. If he or she passed a law that will encumber American citizens, they have the right to demand the selling of this elected person’s property and possessions to help pay the tax bill.
Once they are out of office, they are to be prohibited in working in Academia or return to government service for 30 years. Either they retire or work in a private sector job that do not do business with the American government. Failure to do so means crippling fines for him and the company who hired him.
Another idea comes into mind. If any elected official wants to enter another office before the end of his or her term, like from mayor to Senator or Senator to President. He or she should step down from office immediately after filing their candidacy and he or she must pay a fine of 2 million dollars to cover the cost of replacing him or her. As such, he will automatically be a private citizen, unable to use government benefits to use in his or her campaign. It means he have to pay for his own security, pay for his staff and more.
Never again must we tolerate professional politicians to decide our fate. It should be us who decide ours.
Thats supposed to read
“The thing is states can’t secede”
@ Brian
If that is the best you can do, then this country is screwed to the max. You simpleton! Eat it Tea Baggers? This is typical of the lemmings who belong to the Democrat party or are the welfare loving liberals who spend money they never had nor earned.
As far as Stupak goes, the man was never true to his comments about abortion. He is a Democrat. He is pro-abortion. Plain and simple. The man is a bald faced lying hypocrite. When the chips were down, he choked and his cowardice surfaced. So did all of the other so-called Blue Dog Democrats. All they did was run for cover like any other cur dog would. Yipping and barking at the top of their lungs while running like hell, looking for a place to hid.
I have lived through several administrations. Some good, some bad. Most were actually Americans who actually loved this country. However, I have witnessed the two absolutely worst in history. Carter and now Obama.
November cannot get here fast enough.
As much as it pains me to say this, we’ve got to remember how we ended up with the First Socialist President: it was three things IMHO and all of them happened at the same time.
1.)Bush did not exercise ANY sort of fiscal restraint…he lost the faith of the fiscal conservatives.
2.)There was a crisis of corruption in the Republican Congress. We can scream to high heaven that the media does not fairly or equally report the corruption of the democrats. True, but it will NEVER change. We need to clean up the corruption in our own ranks.
3.)Bush invaded Iraq and settled for a stalemate and a lot of american soldiers died. In other words he didnt clearly win. It took the democrats taking over congress to wake the man up to the fact that he needed to get about the business of winning that war, which he did, but it was too late and the damage had already been done.
PS And of course we had an extraordinarily weak and uninspiring crop of Republican Candidates running against the First Socialist President.
“Hopes that a Republican majority that might be elected in 2010-2012 could repeal the bill is also based on a chimerical notion: no entitlement once granted by Congress has ever been repealed.”
History was made tonight, history can be made again.
WELL EVEN THROUGH IT IS DANGEROUSE I AM TYPING THIS COMMENT FROM MY CAR WHILE I AM DRIVING TO MY GRAND-MOTHERS’ HOUSE. WELL SHE IS 89 YEAR’S OLD, GOD BLESS, HER AND SHE IS STILL FIESTY, BUT RIGHT NOW SHE NEEDS MY PROTECTION, AS DO ALL OF ARE GRAND-MOTHER’S.
WELL IF YOU HAVE ANY ELDERLY FAMILY MEMBARS, I SUGGEST THAT YOU BEST GO TEND TO THEM BECASUE THEY NEED ARE PROTECTION. THIS HEALTH CARE JUST GOES TO SHOW THAT SARAH PAILIN WAS RIGHT, THE DEATH PANEL’S ARE COMING.
I JUST HOPE, TO GOD, I MAKE IT TO MY GRAND-MOTHERS’ HOUSE ON TIME TO PROTECTED HER.
8 Brian N — Congratulations on your feeling of self-righteousness. Unfortunately, and obviously you don’t realize it yet, we are all eating what just got shoved down our throats (that means you are too).
I love how there are so many conservatives worried about the deficits and out of control spending. I wonder where ya’ll were during the 8 years of Bush?
we can start the revolution by not sending our census to the morons in Washington.
chilloutyo:
We are now living in interesting times! <—-
You do realize that is an ancient Chinese curse…
As far as I know all the people without health insurance get cared for anyway now. American indians have free health care but the worst health. I grew up in a single parent family. My mother made payments to the doctors and dentists. Some doctors gave us free meds. I called the local hospital illegal aliens get their meds paid for by the state. What a travesty and theft.
Nancy Pelosi said this healthcare bill will allow people to start their own businesses and invent things without worrying about health insurance. I’m still waiting to hear about all the wonderful new inventions coming out of Canada and western europe.
# 17 BC: writes
“Wah, wah, wah….just eat your Cheerios instead of throwing them on the floor, and then take a nap.”
Now you KNOW why you moonbats are so HATED how they love to GLOAT , Enjoy your moment while you can you will be eating humble pie soon MOONBAT.
Watch Obama claim that this vote was a clear mandate for his healthcare program. Let’s see what else he’s going to come up with. Immigration reform? That would get him another 30 million new citizens who would gleefully vote for him. Gun control? Disarm those who you think are a threat to your new programs. A new government agency to control internal threats? Every registered Republican would be monitored, every returning Veteran would be monitored and every independent would would raise his voice would be added to the list. New laws protecting special interests? Acorn and like groups would get legal government protection. Moslem groups would receive special government protection. Illegal aliens would receive special protection. Left wing organizations would receive special government subsidies. Spreading the wealth? New special taxes placed on those earning over $100,000. Additional inheritance taxes, property taxes and luxury item taxes. New cost cutting measures? Ending the border patrol, limiting defense spending, closing embassies in countries allied with the USA. Ending America’s war on Islam? Bring back the troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Pull all our forces out of the Gulf area and Middle East. Form new alliances? New defense treaties with Gaza, the West Bank PLO, Hezbollah, Al Quaida, the Taliban, Iran, Cuba and Venezuela.
As a recovering Raiders fan, I hear a familiar whine in all these comments: “Wait till next year!” “They cheated!” and my personal favorite, “I’m not buying season tickets for this health care thing, not even if they arrest me!”
Brian N:
All I can say is eat it tea bagers.
————————————————–
Some thoughts Brian: It is you who will “eat it”. $500 BILLION in new taxes. Higher insurance rates to cover the uninsured, the “no pre-existing conditions” and the other requirements thrown at the insurance companies. 16,000 new IRS agents to insure you have insurance and have paid your bill. $500 BILLION in reduced medicare payments, this will drastically increase hospital costs, passed on to insurance companies and, of course, on to you. Increased state taxes – much of the “reductions” come from forcing states to broaden medicaid coverage. This will be done by states increasing taxes and spending less on other luxuries – education, roads, police. Lost company coverage. In my own company I pay around 12,000 per employee per year for insurance, just because I’m a nice guy. Now that I am FORCED to, perhaps it makes more sense to chuck my insurance plans and pay the $2,500 per year per employee fine. I know if I were Catipiller, McDonalds, Walmart, IBM – to name just a few, it would be very tempting. I work in the hospital/nursing home market – the CFOs I deal with estimate 10%-20% of hospitals will close because of reductions in medicare reinbursment. They believe they will loose 30% to 50% of their doctors because it just doesn’t pay to be a doctor. Already, today, over 30% of doctors and pharmacies do not take medicare or medicaid – this will only increase. I know it is fun to point out that only those earning over $250,000 will be hit by higher taxes – this is simply false. The majority of these folks are small, sub-chapter S corporations that are the backbone of our economy. They are the ones that create jobs – and they are the ones that will be unable to expand because of these new taxes and burdens.
So while it sounds all cool and macho to say “All I can say is eat it tea bagers.” – it is you sir, who will eat it in the end.
Scammed…rammed…and damned – to a bitter battle between a power-drunk Socialist party and and an electorate majority dedicated to American Exceptionalism and the defeat of demogogery. The Obami has just committed political suicide. He will certainly go down – in fact as well as in history.
If we could repeal the big mistake of Prohibition, we can surely reverse the dissterof the imposition of a Communist system on our Republic. We have not yet begun to fight!
I have every confidence that this partisan legislation will be pounded to sand.
The American people will not accept what they do not want. They will not accept the unconstitutional mandate; they will not accept being taxed to fund abortion; they will not accept a bureaucrat telling their doctor what treatment they may or may not receive (if insurance denied your claim, you could always appeal to charity, fund drives, or the old-fashioned installment plan).
Americans will not accept the insuring of it-doesn’t-matter-how-many-millions, if it comes at the expense of rationed care for seniors, “take a pain pill, says the messiah”; they will not accept being forced into a lower standard of medical care from which the enforcers themselves are exempt.
They will not accept a system by which the unproductive masses are encouraged to feed off of the hard work of their neighbors; they will not accept that this behavior is encouraged by a political class who seeks to entrench its power on the backs of productive citizens.
I’m happy to say that the democrats, unwittingly, have created the perfect storm for their defeat in November. Not only will this bill be repealed in toto, but democrats will not be trusted with power for decades, maybe even tens of decades.
They have shown themselves for the enemies of America that they are; and they will be shown the door for their naked and vile hubris.
The reckoning is coming. The people see now the difference between compassion and coercion. These tyrants will have a nasty end.
Can you say schadenfreude?
I’ve posted this on my blog today. Sorry for the style, English is my second language.
I want my country back!
It seems like the ultra-liberals have been able to bribe and coerce enough congress-scumbags to pass the Obamacare. And as I said before, there would be hell to pay for this monstrosity. Obamacare is the very definition of unlimited government – the threat of which was forewarned by the Founding Fathers more than two centuries ago. The federal government, which is up to its neck in debt and unfunded liabilities, decided to launch the biggest entitlement of all times – the medical care for all. The spending on this new entitlement will surely dwarf many if not most of Federal programs and will make the bankruptcy of federal and state governments inevitable. The time of reckoning is at hand, brothers and sisters. Obamacare is the last breath of the liberal order – and it’s time to take back America from the party of thieves and looters.
All patriots of this nation must stand together and fight back. United we will win! There is no blue or red America anymore – there are only those that believe in America the beautiful, America the free, America the shining city on the hill – and those that believe in welfare socialism and government tyranny. Today, we fight not only for our personal well-being – but for the dignity and honor of this country, for the right to look into the eyes of our children and say – we defended this nation from the perils of socialism. In November 2010, we will answer the crucial questions of our times – are American people worthy of the efforts of the Founding Fathers? Will American people have to right to proudly say “We are Americans” – or they will forever live in infamy and indignity of welfare socialism?
I am glad that the Democratic Party passed the Rubicon. From now on, there is no coming back for the liberal elites, no talk of compromise and middle-ground. Today, it is abundantly clear that we either will live in Obama-America or America that our Founding Father envisioned. You cannot have both.
The November elections will be the most important elections in our lifetime. If you don’t vote for America in November – you don’t deserve to be called an American.
Written by a Russian immigrant who loves America and who loves freedom.
This is an assault on those who still believe in America as originally conceived. The cultural war comes to a point where it has to be resolved one way or another. This does not have to be as bloody as our civil war, but it is now inevitable.
The progressives do not seem to appreciate the commitment and the determination of the tea party faithful. This is not about being “cool”. This is about being faithful to the notions of God-given rights, liberty and sacred honor, and grateful for the blessings we have received and that our children and grand-children may be deprived of if we do not take a stand.
We the lemmings?
Well, the GOP is busy stirring up their fascist goon-squad with this notion of repealing HCR. I dare them to try. They’ll have about as much luck as they did repealing Social Security and Medicare. The movers and shakers know this. But certainly you can’t blame the GOP leadership for trying to get a little mileage with the repeal meme. Their useful idiots will eat it right up.
I have an idea for the first commercial Democrats should run against the GOP should they even try. A mom and a little girl (say, 5 or 6) are having a heart to heart. The little girl has a serious type of cancer. Because of new HCR laws the private insurance company could not rescind the little girls coverage. She is now getting the needed treatments. However, the mom has to let the cancer-stricken girl know that there is a possibility her treatment may stop because the GOP wants to return to the bad days when private insurance company death panels could refuse treatments that cost to much and denied their CEOs more spa vacations and champagne. The mom has to tell the tearful little girl that she may die. The next scene depicts a coffin being lowered into the ground. The camera pans to a close-up of the mothers face who then tearfully thanks Republicans for murdering her daughter.
It’ll work like a charm, guaranteed.
Remember the date, folks………REMEMBER IN NOVEMBER!!!!
3….2….1….1….0
The countdown of the DATE!
The countdown of the DAY our country EXPLODED it’s future!
3
2
1
1
0
BLAST-OFF TO OBLIVION!!!
The DAY the DEMS and OBAMA committed political fratricide!
The DAY our country was sold down the river for a “promised” executive order.
The DAY we ALL became serfs to the federal government.
The DAY we WILL REMEBER IN NOVEMBER!
3…..2…..1…..1…..0.
This all actually turned out rather well when you think about it. Yes, the last year has been frustrating. At times it seemed like the anti-reform side might actually win and defeat reform. They thought so too. Well, they didn’t and I suppose that that makes the hurt all the more deeply felt. It’s like running towards the finish line and falling flat on your face before you cross it. Conservatives should not kid themselves. This was their Waterloo. No doubt about it. They worst legislative defeat since the 1960s. This is big. Really big.
Statement from the White House:
Yesterday, whe stood at the brink of the abyss. Today, we are one step further.
Bart Stupak: Ignoramus, Hypocrite, or Both?
As is correct and proper, Bart Stupak, 9-term Democrat congressman from Michigan’s 1st CD, ended his congressional career on March 21st, 2010. It was a lackluster career, anyway, but he sealed it as finished when he revealed himself to be either the biggest hypocrite, the dumbest representative from the Wolverine State, or both.
Not incidentally, it should be noted that wolverines are vicious animals, members of the weasel family.
Stupak shall go down in history as the one individual in the U.S. House of Representatives most responsible for Sunday night’s passage of the Obamacare bill, a feat Stupak accomplished through outright and shameful deceit and ignorance.
For years, Stupak has passed himself off as a pro-life Democrat despite, as Rush Limbaugh pointed out last week, voting to fund the organization responsible for most of the abortions committed in America, Planned Parenthood.
As Phyllis Schlafly, founder and president of the Eagle Forum, said, “Mr. Stupak and his Democrat followers have now clarified that you cannot be pro-life and be a Democrat. If abortion was truly their biggest issue, they wouldn’t willfully align themselves with the Party of Death:” http://bit.ly/bNeoYa . . .
(Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=1580)
Secession?, guns?, revolution? These types of comments clearly reveal the low level of education and sophistication that exists in this country. We have, by virtue of this underwhelming health care legislation just barely entered the 20th century, let alone the 21st. Our country is so retarded with regard to social policy that the rest of the developed world can only laugh when some gun-threatening bozo chants something about the US being the best country in the world. We are usually ranked something like 14th-28th on anything related to quality of life. With this new reform we might move out of the league with Cuba regarding health care outcomes. We are currently worst in terms of infant mortality, longevity, and health care costs than any other developed economy. We currently have trouble getting born, and find it much easier, than is the case in other developed countries, to die.
This is tyranny. Government gathers power into itself, overwhelmingly against the will of the people. No rational argument mattered in the end. Venal, buyable representatives were plentiful, and the prices were fairly low. I never dreamed in my lifetime that I would see a gathering of force and power into government on such a grand scale, so QUICKLY.
AGain, no rationality or common sense needed to apply in this argument. It is a small success for totally blind, determined, committed Marxism/Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism/socialism/communism/leftism. Nancy Pelosi, at this point, might as well start wearing a pompous little general’s uniform with gold braided shoulderboards and lots of medals.
We have, my fellow Americans, a POLITBURO whose mission is the acquisition of power over its citizens.
Before this is over, there will be blood in the streets of this country. And not enough doctors to stitch the wounds of the gulag rezidentia.
“Eat it tea bagers”
I must say I am impressed with Brian, who has given the most thoughtful and eloquent defense of the health care bill I have seen.
“As a recovering Raiders fan”
I guess that explains why you’re such a frickin’ moron, Rogers.
Hey 49 Praetorian, here’s another great tv commercial idea for ya: picture a wide desert panorama, showing throngs of Mexicans gleefully streaming across the border, illegally entering our country (even though we do have an immigration process), because they know that once they get here they get free healthcare (among other things) handed to them for breaking our law. Then picture an American small business owner turning off the lights and putting a “for sale” sign in his window. Fade to black.
Can you say schadenfreude?
Why, yes I can. I am really enjoying the misery that the conservatives are suffering right now.
Re “no entitlement once granted by Congress has ever been repealed. And if history is to be a guide, it is also true that any estimates about the cost of this program are laughably inaccurate. No health entitlement has ever obeyed the importunings of its creators and stayed within budgetary bounds.”
Maybe someone here can help me out — I’m perplexed as hell.
Either we can afford this new entitlement or we can’t; either it is sustainable or isn’t — correct? OK then. So let’s say we *can’t* afford it and it *isn’t* sustainable — which means, I think, that it will bankrupt the country, correct?
Now, we always hear that no entitlement program has ever been repealed, and that’s true. But it’s also true that the entitlement programs already in place haven’t bankrupted us — yet.
But it looks like they *are* going to bankrupt us. Correct?
So here’s my question: if our entitlement programs bankrupt the country, doesn’t that mean we won’t be able to pay for the programs anymore?
It seems to me the welfare state will inevitably kill itself off.
Am I missing something?
Stripbubbles…do you really enjoy the misery of others? I’ve always enjoyed honest debate, but I can’t say I’ve ever enjoyed the misery of anyone who wasn’t a criminal.
The thing is, once someone’s moral code allows them to force others to do their bidding, then the debate is over. There is no reasonable discourse to be had. Whether you force people to buy health insurance or pay for abortions or what have you, there’s always something more out there they think should be compulsory. The only thing left to do is to sit back and decide what you are going to force on people next.
I have another scenario for you, praetorian. A civil war has broken out. PJM went through the IP addresses of people like yourself, and then gave them to the squad of patriots coming to give you a choice: Leave, or get burned down like the traitor you are.
59 stripbubbles: What is the important thing for you, the feeling of “winning” something, or the purported benefits of universal health care actually helping people?
Newsflash: you’re not really “on” the winning team; you are just their pawn, emotions and all.
To quote Bugs Bunny: “I like Bill, he’s silly.” Except he probably votes, yet probably hasn’t yet moved to Cuba for the great freedoms, health care, educational system, food rations, and prison system.
I’m glad I’m an expat. I’ve got time to watch the repercussions, but I think US national health has just become a reality. It might be impeded in parts, but it’s a relentless benign tumor.
Though American, it’s nice to have the “No Progressive” option of life abroad.
“I am really enjoying the misery that the conservatives are suffering right now.”
Don’t worry, “stripbubbles.” You’ll be able to replace “conservatives” with “Americans” soon enough. Then the ones who will really enjoy schadenfreude are the Chinese, to whom Obama owes trillions of dollars.
Do you Obama supporters realize that this requires you to BUY healthcare? This is a nationalized Romneycare, not socialized medicine. Some laid off Americans are struggling to earn 20 thou a year, and now they have to cough up additional 8 thousands dollars for insurnace?
I’m a minority, and I live among immigrants who have no choice but to accept welfare. If we’re forced to buy insurance, do you honestly think we’ll visit the doctor only once or twice a year? Or that the American government will draw a line SOMEWHERE to save cost, which is true for govt ran healthcare abroad?(snickers)
“I am really enjoying the misery that the conservatives are suffering right now.”
Don’t worry, er, “stripbubbles”. You’ll be able to replace “conservatives” with “Americans” soon enough. Then the only people gloating over our pain will be the Chinese, to whom Obama owes a high amount of dollars.
Please, please, please, SOMEONE tell Obama supporters that this requires us to BUY healthcare. To the tune of 8 thou a year. Unless you’re super duper poor – I guess.
@stripbubbles,
Congrats.. enjoy your schadenfreude.. dumbocrats like you just enabled the Government to force people to buy health insurance from evil for-profit private insurance companies. gee, what a “progressive” achievement…
but here’s the kicker, there wont be too many companies out there that would hire dimwits like you when they are forced to provide health insurance to their employees.. remember, they are for-PROFIT and EVIL as well?
Congrats, you have “won”. you have succeeded in making things far more worse. but i guess thats what you leaches wanted all along, didnt you ?
And the INVASION continues… http://www.BorderInvasionPics.com
In his Post #6, seguin says:
“I refuse. I will not buy health insurance, and I will not pay the fine.
“Go ahead.
“Come and get me.”
Brian Richard Allen similarly says:
“I refuse. I will not buy health insurance, and I will not pay the fine.
“Go ahead.
“Come and get me.”
DISOBEY! DEFUND! And force the feral gummint to DEFAULT!
DISOBEY!
DEFUND!
DEFAULT!
Brian Richard Allen
Lost Angels – Califobambicated 90028
And the Very Far Abroad
PALIN/BOLTON/2012!
Mr. Stripbubbles, drop by and see me sometime. Dripping Springs, Texas.
To bill:
“Secession?, guns?, revolution? These types of comments clearly reveal the low level of education and sophistication that exists in this country. We have, by virtue of this underwhelming health care legislation just barely entered the 20th century, let alone the 21st. Our country is so retarded with regard to social policy that the rest of the developed world can only laugh when some gun-threatening bozo chants something about the US being the best country in the world. We are usually ranked something like 14th-28th on anything related to quality of life. With this new reform we might move out of the league with Cuba regarding health care outcomes. We are currently worst in terms of infant mortality, longevity, and health care costs than any other developed economy. We currently have trouble getting born, and find it much easier, than is the case in other developed countries, to die.”
Oh Really? Son..you needed to stop going to mikey moore movies. This HCL has done nothing of the sort in elevating US HC…if it did why wait so many years to implement…the developed world is a basket base which should be allowed to die off to start over..no food aid, no medical aid, no finanical aid..You think Cuba has a great health care system…Hmmm…want to buy some farm land in south florida..all the stats you quote are manipulated by the UN and those other so called enlightened countries…infant mortality..hmm – most countries don’t count the child until after it lives the first full year. If it dies in the first …never happened…yeah life is so good everywhere else…pls send your address…I will personally pay to move your sorry brain dead body to anywhere else in the developed world…somilia, uganda, about with Hugo….. you are worst than a fool..you are a fool with a vote…
Mar 21, 2010 – 11:26 pm
Obama had orders; he came, was elected, and destroys America. Anyone who can’t see that, needs some glasses, and ears.
After November 2010, impeachment hearings should begin; there are many crimes committed in this congress, egged on by their president.
It will be ugly, but it is worth it to restore America!
What do 21 March 2010 and 7 December 1941 have in common? The United States of America was attacked by an external enemy. War was declared on the USA. Patriots rallied then to defeat the enemy and we will do so again. The liberals’ next effort has already begun – allowing millions of illegal aliens to become citizens and give them YOUR hard earned tax money. Double your efforts – Protect your money from the Tax Beast; Remove ALL liberals from leadership positions; hold a Constitutional Convention; Take the gloves off. War is Hell. Make them feel it.
Hey Brian N, Congratulations! You’ll eat it too, Libtard. I hope it tastes good because it’ll taste like dirt in November.
To those that think a Republican majority can repeal nationalized healthcare I say that Prohibition was easy to repeal because the government and the people were not invested in its continuation. However, no entitlement program has ever been repealed or even seriously reduced in size. Even Reagan did not eliminate any entitlement or wasteful government operation (like Departments of Energy or Education). We will go bankrupt before an entitlement is ever cut. And if we go bankrupt the former recipients of the government largess will turn to violence on those who they think are responsible.
But right now this is a shell and pea game being run on the American people. Costs will shift around, services will be cut to some and increased for others, and many, many more people will enter the government payroll never to exit. It keeps going this way until there are too few left to pay for it all.
JR Dogman says, “It seems to me the welfare state will inevitably kill itself off.”
Agreed. As Margaret Thatcher pointed out, “They [socialists] always run out of other people’s money. It’s quite a characteristic of them.”
Nobody can predict how the welfare state does itself in, but Greece is providing a preview of the first steps in the process. Watch that space.
Mr. Moran, it’s not “National Health Insurance Reform”. It is socialized medicine. You sound qualified to work in the lamestream media.
Bill says With this new reform we might move out of the league with Cuba regarding health care outcomes. We are currently worst in terms of infant mortality, longevity, and health care costs than any other developed economy. We currently have trouble getting born, and find it much easier, than is the case in other developed countries, to die.
The “infant mortality” wheeze needs not refutation since every educated person knows that is a matter of how births are counted. I assume you are going to Cuba for your health care until 2014. As for longevity, you might check those statistics again. We have violent minorities that skew our statistics. Exclude two minority groups and the US murder rate is the same as Europe although Europe may soon pass us with their violent minority growing. The crime rate in Britain has already caught us in areas like burglary.
The mortality of prostate cancer in Britain, as one example, is 600% of the US rate. Others are higher although not so dramatic.
One entitlement that was repealed was the Catastrophic Care Medicare entitlement after his constituents chased Dan Rostenkowski down the street. They were all Medicare age, by the way. All the Congress critters who voted for this will need police protection from their constituents until they are retired next fall.
I think what will happen is that many sections of this bill will be repealed and others will be modified to make them work. For example, the insurance exchanges can be a good thing as long as government and subsidies are removed.
We will never get control of health care costs as long as people are not required to pay for routine care. The insurance should be reserved for major illness. The “pre-existing conditions” issue is potent but the solution in the bill will not work. There should be funds for certain diagnoses, like major cancers.
As for the commercial about the little girl, the commenter is no doubt unaware of the Crippled Children’s Service, now renamed to some PC version I forget. Children’s hospitals see a minority of private patients in most areas. Most of the children with major illness are immediately covered and I spent years caring for them. Of course, that won’t stop the commercial since only the parents of such children are informed about it.
I remember one young couple who had no insurance and who had a daughter with a major heart defect discovered at birth. She was what are often called “blue babies.” They named her “Reality.” She had surgery and survived. A little more of such realism would be welcome in the debate.
re: “Robotech Master” #18
Did you really write that blue staters would flee to the “Free States” once you’ve seceded? That’s a true revelation of the level of delusion among contemporary rightwing extremists. You seriously imagine a flood of Californians hiking those weary highways to reach the promised lands of Texas, Alabama, Mississippi? That’s downright pitiful.
And as for the civil war option, here’s a wakeup call: you and your small arms mean nothing. We have all the physicists on our side. Your revolt would last five minutes.
“Nobody can predict how the welfare state does itself in, but Greece is providing a preview of the first steps in the process. Watch that space.”
That’s exactly what I’m saying, but I don’t hear anybody talking about it: when you don’t have money, you *can’t* pay for stuff; that’s just how it is.
Right now we’ve got $100 trillion of unfunded liabilities, and the deficit is ~$14 trillion. This isn’t Monopoly money: this is real money that WE OWE on the national credit card.
To the lefties who pop by here, put aside your ideology for a minute, and tell me, *where* is the money going to come from? We can’t just keep borrowing forever, and we can’t keep printing dollars, and the Laffer Curve describes an economic fact: if the gov’t raises taxes beyond a certain point, tax revenues go down.
So where is it going to come from?
I honestly am not worried about not being able to repeal Obamacare — I’m worried about what’s going to happen between now and the time when we finally admit that we *have* to repeal it, and revamp the health care system, Social Security and Medicare, and replace the bunch with something like Rep. Paul Ryan’s road map.
What will a bankrupt USA look like? You got me — but I can tell you this: bankruptcy means no money, and no money = no more stuff.
Democrat party is now fully purged. No more social or fiscal conservative leanings. It’s now an organ of the international leftist movement, one-world government, the new Communist party (labor unions, UAW, SEIU, ‘workers of the world, unite’ as Andy Stern happily says), etc.
No more ‘politics stops at the waters edge’. No more singing God Bless America on the Capitol steps. We are at a crossroads, and it could now go either way, but it’s GOING.
Either we become a fully socialist ‘people’s republic’ with the accompanying economic misery and lack of hope for the future, with average age of death going DOWN each year and average income going down and poverty level rising…
OR ELSE ordinary Americans finish this uprising and literally, as the D. of Indep. says, ‘dissolve this government’. Sometimes, the document reads, we have to do that because government becomes tyrannical and the people reserve that RIGHT to dissolve it.
THIS IS TYRANNY. Government should NOT have the power to decide how much your medical services cost, which ones you will get, when you will die, or to fine you if you do not purchase a service.
I continue to be amazed how many people distrust ‘evil corporations, the evil rich’, etc, but blithely accept ever increasing control over their lives by government, the ORIGINAL corrupt institution where people allocate themselves power and money by oppressing and enslaving the public. It is the entire 7000 year history of mankind, with a brief couple of centuries of actual personal freedom and limited government during the founding years of America.
Those are now OVER. Back to the same old boring government tyranny.
@82. Shef Rogers: – You seriously imagine a flood of Californians hiking those weary highways…
No imagination necessary. All one need do is pay attention. You might try it. It would save you from appearing so… deluded.
As for the rest of your drivel, clearly you prefer slavery.
It’s been said that benevolent tyranny is the worst kind.
Any person can have an attack of conscience when he is murdering and torturing and imprisoning his people helter skelter. But if a leader believes he has the moral high ground, that what he does is for ‘the good of the people’, there is simply no limit to what he will do. Tax into poverty ‘so others may gain’, meddle with systems until they implode ‘to remove unfairness’, destroy free markets ‘so all may participate’… NO LIMIT to the ‘morally superior dictatorship’.
God help us.
This is benevolent tyranny. Most people (not all) in government believe this is for the good of the public.
robotech master,
Re: post 23
I seemed to have missed the Article of the U.S. Constitution that allows secession; could you tell me where exactly in the Constitution that secession is allowed?
Little Sheffy and the rest of the Obamatrons,
Oh ye of little faith. The major thing that is different between the like of you and the like of us, is that we aren’t afraid to actually fight -small, medium and large arms or not- for what we believe in. We also learn from our mistakes and from history which your ilk never learns because it’s too busy rewriting anything it doesn’t like.
If worse comes to worse, I personally will begin to bleed the system dry. Taking advantage of EVERY facet of the new legislation, making the government (and that means you genius) pay through the nose for every hangnail, every zit, every toe fungus I can develop while sitting on my laid off butt (after the 5 million jobs are destroyed by this pile of crap legislation) watching cable and eating Sun Chips.
Hey I’m getting old and it won’t be long before the “Life Panels” decide I’m too costly to keep alive anyway so I intend to get my share before I go. I’ve worked hard all my life so far, now it’s my turn to get a little of the “good life”. The fact that you and the idiots responsible for this debacle have to pay for it is just ………well gravy.
Y’all get to be the adults now and pay for everything. Good luck with that. I’m not even interested enough to care how that works for you.
“Brian N:
All I can say is eat it tea bagers.
Mar 21, 2010 – 8:44 pm”
This is how Obama got elected. Democrats think that if Republicans disagree with something, then the something must be pursued as our punishment for GW Bush.
Remember Rev Pfleger and his tirade about how unfair 401K’s are? Mark these words, Democrats view your 401K like Republicans view ANWR; it is a resource waiting to be drilled.
When this entitlement crashes the economy, you will get a government annuity in exchange for your savings. There is no where else for the money to come from. http://www.workforce.com/section/00/article/25/83/58.php
If they can do what they just did regarding healthcare, they can do this as well. This is $3 trillion waiting to be drilled and $80 billion in taxes a year. After watching the healthcare process, do you really think the Democrats don’t want that money?
Right on #29 Will!
Haven’t read all the comments yet, but if it hasn’t already been pointed out, 3-2-1-1-0 is the beginning of a Fibonacci series run backwards (0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34….)
Hey #72, Anonymous
You nicely validate my point about the extent of ignorance in this room; “developed” means developed, not developing, or undeveloped. “Developed world” refers to Western Europe, Britain, etc, not the likes of Zimbabwe or Somalia. And your statistics regarding prostate cancer in the UK are simply nonsense. You are an excellent example of someone whose ideology leads them to see what they think should be on the page rather than what is, in fact, on the page (and that’s being generous, you could just simply be stupid).
If you are hiring someone, it is legal to ask who they voted for. I know three small business people who queued up their layoffs last summer according to to who the employee voted for. The Obama voters went first.
Please, let’s use our heads and not use terms like trickery or tomfoolery which cast the whole problem in a comical, childish light. If the media were to Quote you on anything it would be that sentence.
We had freedom but wanted security. Now, we will have neither.
#95; well, they ARE the ones who asked for change.
To 82. Shef Rogers
Goy be me to it but yeah its well documented that ppl in CA and many other leftwing utopias(including mexico) are fleeing by the 10,000s of ppl….
TO 88. Mr. Independent
Try reading my post… the states can’t secede from the US Constitution…. that of course has nothing to do with the states saying the federal government is an enemy of the US Constitution and thus not legal. As long as the state/s obeys the US Constitution the federal government has no legal power to stop them since they haven’t broken any laws.
to 55. Bill,
Go back to KOS, they have all the stats that are out of proportion to reality and they truly believe all that junk. I have been in medicine for 40 years and know the ture stats. We used to have the best system in the world. The change actually began in the 80′s. Now it is barely hanging on and with this new law, it is over. The reason for the decline in the first place is the government. Now they are in everything. The cost is beyond comprehension.
For those others who have commented on the Bush years, most conservatives did not like Bush and definitely did not like the Republican congress. The only thing about Bush was that he was not Gore or Kerry, that was his only appeal. As to the Republican congress, they lost their jobs, it is only a matter of time before we know if the organization gets the message.
I encourage all to know that every Democrat in the Congress should go. They all supported this bill whether they voted for or against. Vote for a candidate whatever his warts as long as he is not Dem. and socialist. You are going to have to give up concerns of morality and emotional topic such as abortion. That is what the Democrats are using to divide the vote!!!
82 Shef Rogers,
Imagine a flood of Californians leaving California for Texas? Imagine? Hell, I don’t have to imagine–I’ve SEEN it. They’ve been coming for two decades now, in an ever-growing stream. Know what almost all of them have in common? They’re PRODUCERS. The people who work hard, take risks, succeed–and pay taxes. They’re bailing in unprecedented numbers now, which is one of the reasons California is going to be America’s first failed state. I hope you live there; you deserve it.
As for all the physicists being on your side, you’re wrong. The ones I know in Los Alamos absolutely despise Obama and Democrats.
And if you want to get in front of my sight picture, Sheffy, speak up. I’m sure something could be arranged, whelp.
The matter of why this bill passed seems clear enough to me: unless I am much mistaken, this bill was never about providing care or achieving solvency, not from the politicians’ POV. It was about hoodwinking the populace into believing that their faith is well-placed in demagogues who wish to strip them of their freedom to make their own decisions.
And now the governors have permission from the majority (who wish to consume) to pillage the minority (who still find virtue in producing).
Hey Dr David, 102
“to 55. Bill,
Go back to KOS, they have all the stats that are out of proportion to reality and they truly believe all that junk. I have been in medicine for 40 years and know the ture (sic) stats.
Regarding your blatant lying or ignorance, the statistics I reported are based on World Health Organization figures, which explicitly take into account reporting differences across countries, unlike your unsupported claim that you know the ‘real’ facts. Where do your real facts come from Dr Dave? Your, what must be, very sparse medical practice, a medical practice that will never be graced by my presence, you can be assured. Or perhaps from a National Review article in your waiting room? If after all the years of education, you cannot express yourself any better that is on evidence here, I dread to think of you actually having a license to practice medicine.
Brian N “eat it tea baggers”
You are missing the whole point. The bag is not meant to be eaten but rest gently on the chin.
A regular practititoner such as yourself should know this …
#8 Brian;
“Eat it tea baggers”?
That’s the extent of your argument for government health insurance? “Eat it tea bagger”? I hope you didn’t have to stay up very late last night thinking up that wonderful and intelligent response. And just for the record, until the Deamoncrats brought up that subject I actually had no idea what the term meant. You, obviously, have more then a passing familiarity with the term…and probably the practice. Good for you.
A riposte from Balloon-Juice that says it better than I ever could:
“The bill was passed with a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, as required by law and Senate rules. It was then passed in the House by majority rule and in accordance with all House Rules.
It was done so by a Democratic majority elected sixteen months ago along with a Democratic President who campaigned daily on Health Care reform, and who received the most votes in the history of American elections and won by the widest margin in decades.
The bill was crafted quite openly, after a year and a half of public debate, and the exact Senate bill that was passed in the House yesterday has been available for people to read and discuss for three entire months. This was the slowest, most open, most thoroughly discussed piece of legislation in my lifetime.
Anyone who says this was “rammed down” anyone’s throats simply does not know what they are talking about. But hey- ride that wave of anger Rick. It has really served the Republicans well so far.”
My take: it’s the sound of wingnut heads exploding in the morning. A symphony to mine ears!
You will not find me outside the steps of the capital hangin with folks in 5 dollar wal mart flag shirts either. However, many intellectuals and left wingers count these folks out… at their peril. They are very patriotic and very sincere, and they are not happy.
I know for a fact that this health care is not a government take over and it does not even contain a public option. But those folks outside the capital believe it does…and they have been told by they’re leadership (that paid billions) that it is a government take over.
I am convinced that over time, like with medicare, they will soon realize that the bill mandates people get an insurance policy, that’s it…the crux of it…and a couple of other small things. In return? 32 million will get some insurance to cover them when they get ill. So what is the big deal?
Most complainers are well meaning and well to do anyway…so will have their insurance already …so dont worry, for you, other than ten bucks a month or so more, nothing has changed.
Be happy…
and Good Luck.
Folks don’t be upset. The libertards remind me of the roosters who enjoys crowing so much that he doesn’t see the farmer with an axe coming to get him. Remember Massachusetts and how no Demoncrat could be defeated. Like Remember the Maine, our new battle cry should be Remember Massachusetts. I saw the Demoncrats calling us Tea Baggers before that. They shut up quickly after that election. They want to call us tea baggers now, we’ll even the score. We will take the House, we will take the Senate. This wasn’t an election, it was just a mockery of legislation. We will wait for the elections and the majority of the people will vote on our side. Please everybody REMEMBER MASSACHUSETTS!
Everyone drink up. Free livers are ‘on the house’!
robotech master,
Re: post 101
I did read your post. You wrote in post #23 “Secssion is legal under the US Constitution.”
Now are you going to tell me where in the Constitution that is written or are you mistaken?
82. As a nuclear engineer and a TEA party attendee, I resent that remark.
“Timothy:
I love how there are so many conservatives worried about the deficits and out of control spending. I wonder where ya’ll were during the 8 years of Bush?”
Quite a lot of us were FURIOUS and VOCAL.
But you seem to be focusing, as all liberals do, on the wrong thing.
It’s the freedom, stupid.
Now if I don’t spend my own money in the way that the federal gov’t says I should, I face jail time. And that’s only ONE of the ways in which this monstrosity steals our freedoms.
Moreover, I’m *really* struck by the fact that I haven’t yet heard a single Democrat/liberal/progressive other than Megan McArdle notice that it’s actually a frightening thing that the government just did wanted it wanted to, voters be damned.
We have all the physicists on our side. Your revolt would last five minutes.
Ah. But we have the engineers. They are both more numerous and more competent.
To 113. Mr. Independent
PREAMBLE
We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide
for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure
the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain
and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
ARTICLE X.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people.
#8 Brian: “Eat it tea bagers.” You’re not only hateful, you can neither spell nor punctuate. You are a precious display of the Gramscian long-march-through-the-culture and its presence in the union-run public schools. Unfortunately for Gramsci and his psychosexually stunted disciples (wonderfully exemplified by your toddler-esque sentiment hurled at people who are trying to have a serious discussion of what on earth to do about this situation Congress has inflicted upon us), one of Gramsci’s own followers, Al Gore, invented the Internet. We know all about your kind now, and your schemes and plots have been revealed.
But please, honey, learn better English. Until you do, people like me are going to laugh at you as the ignorant fools you are.
robotech master,
Re: #117
I guess you’re still using the Wikipedia as your “source” of information.
There are only 7 articles in the U.S. Constitution (not 10 as you wrote in your post). What you’re refering to is the 10th AMENDMENT of the Constitution.
Would you like to try again; or are you now ready to accept that the Constitution does not in fact allow Secession?
To 120. Mr. Independent
Lol a poor cut and post job… however the 10th amendment is very clear that the states have the right to secede…
Unless you can should where they can’t(which you can’t). Keep pretending the US Constitution doesn’t exist though your doing great at it so far.
robotech master,
No I don’t think so. It wasn’t a bad cut and past job; you just don’t know what you’re writing about.
The 10th Amendment does not in any way state that the states have the right to secede. You also fail logic 101. If you have an opinion about something, can’t prove that opinion by simple stating ‘prove me wrong’. You prove a position by providing evidence. You have not done that. But just for fun I suggest you read the Supreme Court case Texas vs. White.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0074_0700_ZO.html
That case ended with the SCOTUS ruling that secession is unconstitutional.
Additionally, I am proving that the US Consitution does in fact exist by discussing in detail it’s provisions. Provisions that you don’t appear to understand.
Finally, something you probably won’t read in the Wikipedia, is that the U.S. Constitution is not an institution that grants power to the government but sets limits on the power of government.
I’m sure such trickeries have been used before by Republicans in certain other bills, although the scope of this is large, I guess it trumps the Donut Hole that we got under Bush. I do love the secession talk, nice and I’d love to see states do that, states that can’t balance their own books without Federal dollars trying to do it on their own. Yup…this would last a few weeks as services deteriorated and the state can’t keep up. I’d love to see that.
“Please, please, please, SOMEONE tell Obama supporters that this requires us to BUY healthcare. To the tune of 8 thou a year. Unless you’re super duper poor – I guess.”
I do this in Massachusetts already under Romney care, and I am paying more than $8k a year for way less services than I got under my employer’s plan before I went contractor. It’s not cheap an I don’t get everything covered like I used to and would have liked, but you know I deal with it…just like I deal with car insurance I am MANDATED to have. So just like I drive carefully to avoid accidents so my rates don’t go up I take care of my family’s health so that we don’t have to go to the doctor unnecessarily…and that’s not easy with two boys.
To 122. Mr. Independent
So a SCOTUS ruling has never been overturned? Also I would suggest you read that case but it doesn’t say what you think it says.
PS your argument is by default that the US Constitution says we are still owned and run by the UK…
robotech master,
Yes SCOTUS rulings have been overturned but Texas vs. white has not. By your own reasoning seccession is NOT allowed by the Constitution unless Texas vs. White is overturned. Guess what, Texas vs. White is still the law of the land.
I would also suggest that you actually read the case and stop using the Wikipedia as you ‘source’ of information. Starting on page 726 the case explains why secession is unconstitutional.
Furthermore, your argument (not mine but yours) that the U.S. Constitution states that “we are still owned and run by the UK” is absurd. The U.S. has been governed by two institutions since it’s revolution. The first was the Articles of Confederation which was then replaced with the U.S. Constitution.
Finally, while I find you near total ignorance very amusing, I think it would greatly benefit you if you would actually study this countries’ history before you try and debate with someone about it.
To 126. Mr. Independent
“By your own reasoning seccession is NOT allowed by the Constitution unless Texas vs. White is overturned. ”
No by your OWN reasoning it most be… and nice straw man and attempt to change the topic.
“I would also suggest that you actually read the case and stop using the Wikipedia as you ’source’ of information. Starting on page 726 the case explains why secession is unconstitutional.”
Lol being that wikipedia supports your poorly educated view point and the fact that you’ve only skimmed to the section that wikipedia points out thats a bit of a hollow argument and once again another strawman. I would suggest you take the time to read the whole case instead of selective reading based on what wikipedia says.
“Furthermore, your argument (not mine but yours) that the U.S. Constitution states that “we are still owned and run by the UK” is absurd.”
No thats your argument and yes i agree its absurd… so why do you keeping arguing it?
“The U.S. has been governed by two institutions since it’s revolution. The first was the Articles of Confederation which was then replaced with the U.S. Constitution.”
So now you admit that states have the right to secede…. Well nice of you to admit that.
“Finally, while I find you near total ignorance very amusing, I think it would greatly benefit you if you would actually study this countries’ history before you try and debate with someone about it.”
Maybe instead of basing your whole arguments around wikipedia and what you think someone else is arguing you read what they said instead of what you want to hear….
robotech master,
So are you agreeing or disagreeing with me that secession is unconstitutional? I’m asking again because you keep on changing your story. And pointing that out is not a straw man or an attempt to change the subject. I’m simply demonstrating that you’re wrong and you don’t know what you’re writing about.
It’s interesting that you now admit to using the Wikipedia as your “source” of information. Also I didn’t skim anything; I actually read the case. If you feel that the case actually proves something other that what I’ve stated, tell me specifically where.
The comment that “we are still owned and run by the UK” was made by you on post #125, not me.
No I don’t agree that the states have the right to secede. It’s unconstitutional. I’ve never stated otherwise. You however have flipfloped between stating that can and that they can’t.
Finally, in a previous post I provided you a link to the entire SC case and I told you what page the specific information is that I’m refering to. Secession is unconstitutional. It’s all there in black and white. So if you’re man enough to prove me wrong (without using your precious Wikipedia), tell me what specific page in the SC case of Texas vs. White supports your claim. If not, it’s been fun laughing at you, err I mean debating with you.
PS, I looked over the article in your “source” of information, the Wikipedia; there was not reference to any specific section of the actual case law. I guess you made that up.
To 128. Mr. Independent
I haven’t changed at all you are simply not reading anything I have written and you are dancing around creating strawman argument which I never stated.
Maybe you should say read post 101. robotech master
or even the posts before that since clearly you didn’t.
“I’m simply demonstrating that you’re wrong and you don’t know what you’re writing about.”
You haven’t done anything to demonstrate that I’m wrong… the only thing you’ve demonstrated is that you can create your own personal strawman argument and then claim that its wrong.
“It’s interesting that you now admit to using the Wikipedia as your “source” of information.”
Lol no once again projectionism much? Once again please stop with the strawman argument and claiming your sources and views are mine. You only use wikipedia as your source which is a joke. You have stated in another thread
here http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/is-anthropogenic-warming-the-new-intelligent-design/
That you use wikipedia and think its great.
“Also I didn’t skim anything; I actually read the case. If you feel that the case actually proves something other that what I’ve stated, tell me specifically where.”
Now your going to straight lie to my face huh… nice. If you’d read the case then you would know the case not only doesn’t say secession is illegal it in fact merely states that Taxes went about it the wrong way. While I hate taking opinions from other ppl because opinions are much like you… almost all agree the case had limited scope and did not settle the matter at all.
Anyone who reads the case would of course come away with that though… assuming you read it instead of project your opinion onto it…
“tell me what specific page in the SC case of Texas vs. White supports your claim.”
Here are links to all the pages that state your an idiot.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0074_0700_ZO.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0074_0700_ZD.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0074_0700_ZX.html
Wikipedia Master (AKA robotech),
I asked for a specific page number of the case that disproves what I’ve stated. I told you the specific page in the case that proves my assertions. Why can’t you cite a specific page in the case law?
I’m happy to say that the democrats, unwittingly, have created the perfect storm for their defeat in November. Not only will this bill be repealed in toto, but democrats will not be trusted with power for decades, maybe even tens of decades.
Ilan Ben Menachem,
Let’s hope you’re right about November. But I think you’re wrong about the length of time the DEMs will be out of power. The REBs have a demographic problem that if not fixed will turn the GOP in a regional party with 20 years.
robotech (aka Wikipedia) master,
I did read post #101 which is why I’ve stated that you have flip flopped on your position about secession. It is in contradiction to what you stated in post #127 and others.
You wrote in post #129 that in the article below:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/is-anthropogenic-warming-the-new-intelligent-design/
that I stated “That you use Wikipedia and think its great”. That was a lie. What I wrote was “No not so much. As I recall, you’re the one obsessed with the Wikipedia as being the ultimate source of information.” Sorry but you can’t change what you wrote.
On Texas vs. White, you obviously still haven’t read the case. Which is really pathetic. I gave you a link to the entire case. But of course you insisted on using your precious Wikipedia instead. And the links you provided in your last post were just copied from my post.
Additionally, I’ve stated in previous posts what page specifically in the case proves my assertions. Tell me on what page(s) specifically you believe that the case disproves my statements.
As always, thanks for all the laughs. Your “knowledge” of Constitutional Law (or anything) is always very entertaining.
This “health care” bill will bring 32 million more Americans into the health care system. We don’t want that! If they aren’t eligible, they aren’t eligible. There’s no guarantee of health care in America. You have to buy it!
This “health care” bill will require all people to have health care insurance. We don’t want that! If someone wants to go without health insurance, that should be their right. Also there is no reason that doctors or hospitals should have to give them care. If they choose not to have insurance, fine. But they don’t have a right to care they don’t pay for.
This “health care” bill will prevent insurance companies from cutting off benefits for someone that is really sick and has used up all their benefits. We don’t want that! If someone is that unlucky, tough! They should have thought of that and bought better insurance. Its not a “right,” you have to buy it.
This “health care” bill prevents insurance companies from denying coverage for people with pre-existing conditions (whatever they are). We don’t want that! How can an insurance company be responsible for the cost of care for some condition that started before they insured someone? They can’t take that kind of risk and make any money. Someone with a pre-existing condition is really just cheating the company and they don’t deserve coverage.
This “health care” bill would tax people making only $200,000 or more with increased medicare premiums. We don’t want that! Those people are just getting by and taxing them will destroy the economy.
This “health care” bill will slowly close the so-called donut hole where some seniors can’t get help with prescription drug costs. We don’t want that! Since when is it our responsibility to create some sort of fair or balanced insurance program for all? If old people get stuck with some high drug costs, so what? Most can afford a few hundred dollars extra each month.
This “health care” bill will make people choose from a large number of private insurance company health insurance plans or sign up for the same health insurance plan that Congress gets. We don’t want that! The American people are not Congress and we should not be able to get the same kind of health insurance program that Congress gets.
This “health care” bill will give subsidies to cover part of health insurance costs for families making up to $88,200. We don’t want that! People making that kind of money can certainly afford to buy their own insurance and if they can’t, that’s their choice. There is no right to health insurance and its not the responsibility of any American to help subsidize another.
After this stunt republicans will easily defeat democratsbecause of this Health Insurance bill.
We’ve all heard the stories of seniors not getting their free “sample” meds anymore because the pharma companies aren’t giving them away anymore, allegedly because of the new bill.
I expect that we’ll see a return to free samples, though, once the pharma companies are able to adjust to the new way of doing business.
I heard today that “Archie” from the Archie Griffith show did a PSA warning that if the republicans go after some type of reform to the healthcare reform, then seniors would “loose their free healthcare benefits”!
Does any dumba@@ out there really think that all of this stuff is free?
I would agree with Rowan. The number of consumers out there who believe health care reform gave them “free” insurance is almost laughable.
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