Mumbai Attacks Highlight the Threat That Is Pakistan
As the smoke clears and the body count grows in Mumbai, in one of the most brazen and chilling terrorist attacks we’ve seen in a long time, the truth about the region becomes crystal clear: Pakistan is a cancer on its neighbors. And the narrow focus of the attacks has also made it clear that Pakistan, allowing its extremists to operate unchecked, is also emerging as a greater threat to us.
It pains me to say that. I’ve been fortunate to know good men in the Pakistani government who seemed to seriously give a damn about their country, forced to constantly fight the negative headlines in an attempt to lure industry to the country and show the side of the nation that embraces Western ideals. But those guys were in Pervez Musharraf’s crew, and now there’s a new sheriff in town.
Not implying, of course, in the traditional Western sense that this new sheriff has brought law and order. The ouster of Musharraf, which became a hot topic in our presidential campaign season, was supposed to enthrall lovers of democracy everywhere. But what has Asif Ali Zardari done since coming to power? Those are questions best answered by India and Afghanistan.
Even Pakistani media were acknowledging that the highly orchestrated, well-armed and well-trained attacks, with fighters coming across the sea from Karachi, indicated the involvement of Lashkar-e-Taiba, whose mouthpiece denied involvement in the attacks and amusingly went so far as to “demand an international inquiry” to clear their, ahem, good name. The group is branded as a terrorist organization by Pakistan, yet operates out of Lahore and trains fighters in Pakistan’s share of Kashmir. And anyone who thinks that this week’s carnage is another plug for Kashmiri independence needs to remember that the targets were Americans, Britons, and Jews. That’s good ol’ fashioned Islamic terrorism. That’s an act of war.
Your article is full of WRONG assumptions. Just a heading like “Cancer … Pakistan”. Are you out of your mind??? You are talking about a country with 170 million population. A cancer is something that you destroy and root out so I am assuming that you are meaning to God Forbid root out a country and population of 170 million, ARE YOU NUTS or ARE YOUR SOME FINATIC FOLLOWER OF HITLER WHO BELIEVES IN SOLUTIONS LIKE WIPING OUT ENTIRE RACES OF PEOPLE??? I am a Pakistani and a successful businessman and know that most Pakistanis that I’ve known my entire life have been honorable and decent people, equal if NOT better than most other people I have met while I travelled the world. Most Pakistanis want peace with India but they are NOT willing to see Kashmiris bleed and go through attrocities at the hands of Indian occupation and want them to have a right of self-determination. It is shame that a bunch of PISSED-OFF youngsters speaking a language of VIOLENCE bring this issue to your BUSY ATTENTION SPAN by this crazy VIOLENTS ACTS on a Thanksgiving eve. The real issue is that so-called INTELLECTUALS like you are so HUNG-OVER that you keep on FORGETTING what is the real CAUSE of all this i.e., KASHMIR, DISCRIMINATION against MUSLIMS in INDIA, POVERTY, ILLETRACY. 40% of the prison population in India is Muslims, given that they are only 12% of the total population. Indians and Pakistanis are capable of solving this complex issues only if there is encouragement from Outside world to resolve the real issue and the West to be wise and just in judging a solution and don’t have any favorites among the disputed parties. It is NO secret that today there are so many INJUSTICES in this world such as Israelis locking down an entire population in Gaza strip without any means of decent living and the funny thing that sources for people to be more aware are a lot more, such as INTERNET. But unfortunately, most rich people have taken a view that they have to SIDE with the Powerful and NEVER have the COURAGE to see the POINTS of VIEWS of the ONES that are REALLY HURTING and SUFFERING. Please LEARN TO SEE THINGS FROM OTHERS PERSPECTIVES AS WELL BEFORE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS.
Also, you claim that Pakistan is fostering LeT or Jaish-e-Mohammad, well the WHOLE taliban movement and mujahideen were created, cherished, fostered, funded by good-ol AMERICANs. ALL THIS DATES BACK TO 1980s, the good-ol times of Cold War, remember, when USSR was the biggest EVIL for you dereded Westerners. God, your writing style is SOO dispecable and so full of Propaganda. SHAME on YOU.
This is very serious. I hope OBama is up to the challenge. I really do
attacking any location where Westerners and Jews may be — after all, why should the jihad stop at India?
I have heard several people,
even on this great blog,
talk about leaving America and moving to another country because they don’t like Bush, taxes, Obama etc.
Stupid is as stupid does!
We can still sleep safe in our beds and we have a great Military that I am thankful for.
A military that stands on that ‘WALL’ for our peace, safety and freedoms.
And we don’t have check points and road blocked sandbags at every state line we cross.
Sooooo-
Any of you that still want to leave America and move to another country,
Don’t let the door hit you in the ass!
Thank God for George W. Bush. There is a reason why such an attack did not take place till now on American Soil after 9/11. It is GWB, his team of resolute and ruthless advisers and the Patriot Act. India had a version of Patriot act called POTA (Prevention of Terrorist Activities) and they repealed it 4 years ago. Look what has happened since then. India had the largest amount of terrorist activities after Iraq and Iraq is at war.
I think the whole of America should be thankful to Dubya and his team and not hate him like they do. I guess peace and cozy security creates complacency.
This article is very balanced. The reaction of Juniad Shah shows exactly what is wrong with Pakistan. Pakistan, itself is killing Baluchs, who ask for better treatment. Pakistan is dominated by Punjabis. hence, none of the other 3 provinces are happy. Heal yourself first, pakistan.Than think about others.
Kashmir is a part of India and pakistan has encouraged torrer there, after losing wars on 1948, 1965 and 1971. They, then embarked on a policy of terror – apolicy of inflicting India a thousand Cuts.
Junaid, if you are the son of your actual father, start an all-out war and see the result. Bu supporting terror, you are a terroist.
The key to understanding Pakistan is that for Pakistan islamic radicalism is not a bug, not even a feature but vital for its own survival.
Pakistan is a mosaic of people (Punjabis, Balochs, Sindhs, Pashtuns) with little love for one another. How do you make hold together so you, the mostly Punjabis elites can vampirize the whiole of it instead of only Punjab? You radicalize them so people stop caring about money leaving their region, elites being mostly Punjabi or about why India has become much richer than Pakistan when it was initially poorer. And most important: by radicalizing them Balochs, Sindhs and Pashtuns don’t dream about having their own state. Make them think it is not important that Punjabis are getting all the money because after all “We are all Muslims” and not important to have their own state: “We sjhould be united in a big califaté.
The second key for understanding Pakistan is that Pakistan’s very own existence depends on Afghanistan being a failed state. The day Afghanistan becomes attractive, the day Pakistan’s Pashtuns will remember that Afghan and Pashtun were synonyms until 192x (when the Kig of Afghanitan decreed that the term of Afghan would designte all of his subjects, even those who were not Pashtuns) and that after the expiration of Durand treaty in 199x Pakistan has no right to continue occupying those parts o Afghnistan lost to the British Raj. That is why Pakistan must foment trouble in Afganistan and that is why its in ots interest for Afganistan being ruled by an
ultra Muslim like Mullah Omar only carinbg about Califat and not about the lost provinces instead of a patriot like Ahmad Shah Massud who, despite being Tadjik, cared about them
The third key is that Paksitan has a dream of conquering not even Kashmir but the whole of India. The inventor of the word Pakistan (“the country of the pure but also an acronym for Punjab, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Sindh) envisioned India as a conferderation of Muslim states with only a small part of it being under Hindu rule. That dream is essential to keep the eyes of its minorities away from the interior siktuation. It is also essential because it helps to make its population believe that India has the same intentions and that Pakistanis must stand united or they will vbe ruled by Kafirs. And one of the keys for this dream is strategic depth ie Afghanistan’s territory being at the disposal of Pakistan’s armies.
For those reasons we must understand that Pakistan is structurally our enemy and it will ever be. Me must make it implode. For our sake and for the sake of its populations. If Sindhs and Balochs had their own state thir elites would not need of radical islam to divert the eyes of the popuilation of the wealth being diverted to Punjab.
Junaid:
At this time, hyperbole should only be expressed by those who are fundamentally OUTRAGED by the acts of the last 48 hours. It is those people who may, justifiably, be looking to kill in response to what they’ve seen, heard and felt by the acts of Muslims with confirmed links to LeT and Pakistan.
Your stupidity in accusing the author of encouraging extermination of entire races (HITLER… really?) shows your lack of seriousness. You’re either stupid (the best outcome) or a supporter of this terrorism.
If you just happen to be stupid, please rethink. The people who have the most to both gain, and save the world from conflict are the moderate/non-extremist Muslims. If they actively, forcefully and without doubt react with outrage… a sort of “THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN IN THE NAME OF MY RELIGION!!” the outcome to you will be softer when the inevitable response comes.
Think before you speak… especially as innocents are being slaughtered…
Here’s a link to two live streams from India news, one is to Fox/New Delhi TV and the second is CNN/IBN.
http://www.jasoncoleman.com/BlogArchives/2008/11/live_feeds_from_mumbai.html
I think coming from Karachi via sea story was just a rumor. Most likely attack was done by local guys with some inspiration or support with groups in Pakistan or Al Queda. A lot of Indian sources are not very reliable and Indian goverment has a strong incentive to blame it on Pakistan for domestic reasons. It will loose election if shown to be incompetent to stop attach.
Junaid,
“… DISCRIMINATION against MUSLIMS in INDIA, … ”
You’re quite lucky that, despite your Godwin’s Law hysterics, the Indians and others simply haven’t said “to hell with it” and killed the lot of you. The Mulsims in Gaza you carry on about are in much the same boat – you can’t try and fail repeatedly to wipe out a people (i.e., the Jews) and expect humane treatment in return. It’s entirely irrational.
There are hundreds of millions of good, decent Muslim people in the world. Many around the world have even fought and died alongside my countrymen, fighting with us for any number of causes. But Islam as a whole simply is unwilling to do what it takes to expel and denounce the violent fanatics.
Look around the world, outside of India and Pakistan. You find one, and only one, ideology that kills, maims, tortures, kidnaps, rapes, and terrorizes virtually everywhere. Muslims do all of these things and blood flows in the streets, and what does the “moderate” Muslim world have to say about it? They complain that those the fanatics have not yet killed aren’t nice to them. They carry on about ice cream lids, cartoons, ham sandwiches, and prayer breaks for taxi drivers. Do you honestly expect anyone to care what happens to Muslims in India and Kashmir when so many of them do such vile things elsewhere?
The world waits for a billion Muslims to denouce terror, and what do we hear? Whining, like from a petutlant child throwing a tantrum. The Islamic world does not get to turn a blind eye to the violence while complaining about generic “insults” and “injustices” without looking like utter lunatics.
You carry on about “perspective”, and demand that we see the problem from yours. I’ll give you a hint: the problem here is not “everyone is being mean to the Muslims”. Grow up.
JFM puts his finger almost exactly on it.
Pakistan is not a unity, and you can’t say “Pakistan wants” because Pakistan is divided against itself. Even in the military and security services there are those who fight LeT and those who support LeT (to give only one example). Pakistan wants to take the remainder of Kashmir from India — each nation has a colorable argument here as lawyers might say — but the fact is that Pakistan cannot. The Moslem country contains only about as many people as India’s 12-15% Moslem minority, and it has a weaker, less-functional economy.
Pakistan and India have fought three times, most bitterly in 1965 and 1971, and Pakistan has lost every time. Since 1971 Pakistan has stagnated in its economy and institutions, and India has grown enormously. Another war would be, like any war, a disaster for both sides but far more a disaster for Pakistan.
Many Pakistanis abjure terrorism; the elected government, which took power peacefully from Gen. Musharraf’s government, was quick to condemn the violence in Bombay. The crazed terrorists, indeed, cut down Moslem, Hindu and foreigner alike in their mad “Islamic” act.
However, even those Pakistanis who are staunch against terrorism put Kashmir in a different category. (I’m not saying *I* do — I’m saying *they* do). Most every patriotic Pakistani considers the Indian control of Jammu and Kashmir to be illegitimate. You have to consider that. Part of this — like Junaid’s anger — is a function of propaganda. And as I said, the Pakistanis do have a case that the self-determination of the people of the region was ignored at partition. It was.
The problem for Pakistan is that more or less every other country on the planet does recognize Indian dominion over Jammu and Kashmir. A rational position for Pakistan at this point might be to work with India to build mutual confidence and secure the human rights of the inhabitants. Pakistan in turn could try to tone down its propaganda, and improve its own problematic treatment of religious minorities.
Both nations are likely to share that subcontinent for a very long time. They should be doing all they can to ensure they share it in peace. The rivalries might be better played out on the cricket field.
One thing the US could do to help is to provide aid towards a system of secular education that might provide an alternative the Saudi-sponsored madrassas. And yes, such a policy move would take decades to bear fruit.
Also, after reading Mr Junai rant about the Palestinians we should remind that he is completely indifferent to the pledge of the Blacks Sudanese, who have twenty times more victims than Paklestinians (and in Sudan the victims are not terrorists) and who don’t get a tenth of the aid Palestinians are receiving (and using it for weapons). But that injustice does not indignate him. Why? Let’s him tell us why. Because they are Blacks?
Let’s also remind him, since by his name he seems to be Pakistani, about the oppression of the Balochs, about the judicial rapes, about the bombings against Pakistani Shia, about the Christan girls rapted and forcefully converted to Islam, about those 15% of Pakistani Hindus in 1950 who have been ethnically cleansed, about the hundreds of thousands of murders and rapes in Bangaldesh and the fact the perpetrators were never punished but instead reached the highest ranks in Pakistani Army and society.
Let’s us remind all that when he talks about “injustice”.
I happen to be a Pakistani, from the Province (which was termed as minority) Sindh, having pleasure of working in a team which comprised of INDIANS Hindus, INDIAN Muslim, Kashmiri Muslim.
My reaction to article.. and then comments was ranging between sadness, apathy, a little bit of anger, and by end i was laughing.
WHY IS IT THAT PAKISTAN GOVT. (A CANCER) DID ALL THIS??
There are so many questions and basic facts missing.
Lets assume its true:
Indian Intelligence was sleeping when all this was planned, (and when last three bombing incidents were planned), they had no clue when group of terrorists were assembling in India, they were ignorant when atleast ten different places were made target (NOT ONE, every time several locations). If Pakistani intelligence agencies were so trained to do all this and fox Mossad trained indian intelligence, THEN WHY THE HELL THEY LEFT BEHIND PROOF. Not even 10 hrs were passed and fingers were pointing towards PAKISTAN. For GOD sake, you have not yet arrested the captors, freed the victoms, and YOUR INTELLIGENCE knew WHO DID THIS?
WAKE UP IGNORANT EMOTIONAL INDIANS, they want your vote and thus need to give explanations. WE PAKISTANIS have no PLAN to conquer INDIA (yes Kashmir issue is un resolved) but YOU CAN KEEP YOUR OWN COUNTRY.
IF Pak Govt is taking care of them, then WHY THE HELL are we suffering in our own COUNTRY? with Bomb blasts in Capital City? (esp after INDIA established counsellate near pak afg border?)
Every country has their internal problems, Indians should not raise fingers when there own hands are dirty. Massacare of Muslims in Gujrat (it is still in INDIA), SIKHS burned down in trains (..again INDIA), innocent christian Nuns raped (.. yet again INDIA), TAMIL tigers getting outside support (.. ??), CHINESE towns bordering INDIA ??.. INDIA is so huge, its linen can stay clean. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN that when you fail to answer.. you point fingers. The last thing Pakistan need right now is bad relations with INDIA, we cant afford it. But INDIA CAN..
someone mentioned “if you have balls come have another WAR”… now that is whats terrorism called, now thats the reason the indian politicians use Pak, to exploit the emotions of IGNORANT EMOTIONAL INDIANS.. and i know for a fact that there are Ignorant people on both sides, but these numbers are less. India has true Democracy so they want more IGNORANT EMOTIONALS there then in Pakistan. WAKE UP and SMELL THE ROSES.
ANAND: You really dont want a WAR (its bad for Both countries, remember we have Nukes too).. Just try to use you brain. Your media is strong, they use you.
JFM: Mr Balance Article: dont give lessons about neighbouring country problems when you have your own. Grow up, try to gulp the fact that your highly paid intelligence dept FAILED. it was your tax money which went in drain.. ask these questions from ur politicians, dont speak their words.
I respect INDIA, INDIANS and their rights. Most of PAKISTANIs too. General Indian population should not be coaxed into hating neighbours by govt.
Junaid Shah:
Yammer away all you like, but someday Muslim terrorists will commit an outrage that will bring down massive retaliation on anyone seen to be supporting them.
You’d better hope, for example, that they don’t pop off one of A.Q. Khan’s nukes. I wouldn’t like to have any connections to Pakistan if THAT happens.
For the sake of yourself, family, friends, and countrymen, please spend your time and energy on stopping the fanatics instead of blaming others for the fanatics’ evil lunacy.
Junaid Shah – “God, your writing style is SOO dispecable and so full of Propaganda.”
You’re proof that, “we see our faults in others”. Since you have just espoused talking points from the very groups who helped carry out this attack, I hope you’ll pardon me for not thinking you’re actually as shocked as you pretend to be. Especially since you defend those who advocate slaughtering billions who don’t share their faith by tossing the old stand-by, “HITLER”, at the author.
For those of you who read Strategy Page and/or The Long War Journal, not mentioning the current large-scale combat operations the Pakistani army are conducting in Swat and Waziristan looks like a deliberate evasion of material facts. Many hundreds of Pakistani soldiers have died in the last few months in FATA/NWFP, combating the Afghan Taleban and other groups of terrorists. Why ignore that? Pakistan has severe problems, of that there is no doubt, but why paint this portrait without any effort to give it full texture?
hi there
terrorists again …apart from my patriotic feelings for my mother land i have few questions to ask
1. why was this a complete intelligence failure.
2. where was our navy , if these terrorists were sent in by neighbouring country.
3. isnt it incompetancy of anti terrorist squard, their chief getting killed even before action started.
4. why it took so long for our forces to enter building.
5. why even after 45 hours they are unable to control the situation.
6.how come these terrorists ve got so much information and knowledge about these buildings.
7. Are our forces so incompetent tht our anti terrorist squads, police, ngs commandos, naval commandos, intelligence , crime branch etc. all together can not get rid of few terrorists in 45 hours. what if we go to war can we expect them to save us.
8.why were these terrorists let loose.
9.if our neighbours are involved will we let them do these acts every other day ? why cant we stop it the way usa did by invading its enemy .
this incident gives rise to many questions about our capabilities and policies.
regards
kartar
I am sure there are some outside supporters of this incident but i believe pakistan is alrady in alot of mess it will not open another front.
reason being we know what ever happens here , blame goes to pakistan and vice versa.
paksitan is not in a position , politically and militarily to start another front.
i beleve these are some local lads, trying to be heroic , simply inspired by rambo movies.
they didnt put any demands, they didnt go for negotiation, means they were there to kill and to die.
i agree to kartar that this event exposes flaws in our intelligence and security systems.
i hope this event will not trigger a big battle between countries.
both our countries ve lost too much , let us improve lives of our ordinary people. we can not bear costs of war
Junaid Shah What part of Americans, Brits, Jews has anything to do with Kasmir???? You are only deflecting the real issue THE HAVEN for TEORISTS is Pakistan. You stupid or dishonest little insect.
A good first step would be to ban radical islamists from residing in the west. The message would go out–no more green cards, tourist, student, work visas–if you are a radical islamist. If you are radical islamist and already here, but not yet a citizen, then deport. Not only will this policy (obviously) provide more security in the west, but I believe it will help moderate muslims both in the host country and overseas (like in Pakistan) to gain the upper hand over their radicals.
I define a radical islamist as an individual who wants to establish sharia law in the host country or believes in jihad as a way to settle national disputes.
If only 1% of the Muslims believe in global terrorism the world still has a massive problem. The Islamic faith has to stop promoting violence as a method of expansion.
Do you always YELL LIKE THIS when you speak? I’ll bet you’re real charmers at dinner parties. Great way to strike debating points, though, fly off the handle emotionally and suck all the oxygen out of the room, leaving everyone shut up, dazed, and wondering just what was that force of nature that blew through.
Whereas, I see a spattering of caps and realize right then that I’m reading a lunatic.
Let me add today, though I have only a moment, that the Pakistani FM is in India (he was at the time of the attacks by happenstance), the Indian Home Minister is meeting his Pak counterpart in Islamabad, and the President of Pakistan has offered India a pledge of cooperation in the investigation — and, more significantly, a pledge of no first use of nuclear weapons. This last is unprecedented.
I suspect the attackers, LeT or not, wanted to drive a wedge between the Indian and Pakistani governments. They may have to reckon with unintended consequences.
Andrew Lale — the way I explain it to people, is that more Pakistani soldiers have died fighting the Taliban and their allies than American soldiers. Few Americans understand that.
Good comments.
There is real insight in these comments.
The question that keeps coming back to me is who benefits and
what are the motives behind these attacks. Unlike the media here
I do not immediately assume this is all directed at America and is a
last personal attack on the hated GW Bush. If you watch and listen closely, the terrorists are often targeting other audiences, with the media or information war side of their attacks and they have other goals.
So I wonder who benefits and look at the trail of rather obvious
bloody foot prints leading back to Pakistan and
have to assume that much of this is aimed at Pakistan.
In the past I have seen Pakistani military pressure
against the Taliban in NWFP diverted when terror strikes in India
and the resulting tensions between India and Pakistan brought
their respective armies crowding to their mutual border areas.
The Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters, drifting home from defeat in Iraq,
are being squeezed on both sides of the Afghan border and a move
of the Pakistani army away from the tribal areas toward the border
with India would relieve some of that pressure. This would be a big
win for Al Qaeda. This seems like a rather simple observation, but one
I hear from the major media, not at all.
The question about the attacks in Bombay, remains who benefits?
What is the real motive?
Many hundreds of Pakistani soldiers have died in the last few months in FATA/NWFP, combating the Afghan Taleban and other groups of terrorists.
Yes, many hundreds of Pakistani soldiers have deied. The question is: did they die despoite the best efforts of their generals and the ISI or were they were expendable soldiers probably from the “inferior” ethnias whose failure was aimed at proving tha Pakistan could do no more? I don’t have the answer. For that you need knowledge about the units involved and have after action reports (eg if it loooks like the rebels ever knew in advance about their moves).
I have been told, but I cannot guarantee my confident is truthful, that the good Pakistani troops are deployed against India and have not moved, that the people who died in the NWFP were from an auxiliary corps (don’t remind the name) and not part of the real army. That those people were poorly armed and trained. That their military value was about zeo. I reiterate that I cannot guarantee that my informant is truthful, even if he seems to have an encyclopedical knowledge about India and Pakistan. Now my own observation is that, when the Pakistani Army really wants to win (eg in Balochistan) it can eventually be defetated but not massacred like it was in the NWFP.
#2 .Junaid Shah: Please take a pill and calm down. Cancer is an evil that infects a body and must be destroyed, before it destroys the body. That is what militant Islam is today and Pakistan is harbouring and aiding murderers and terrorists. I would most certainly call that a cancer.
Today, in 2008, Pakistani men are throwing acid on the faces of women who have rejected their forced marriage proposals or who cannot pay enough dowry. These are not Moslem radicals, but simple folk who are exerting their evil and yes, CANCEROUS hatred in the name of Islam against the innocent. This is not happening in behind closed doors. It is happening in broad daylight for all to see. Where are the “honorable and decent people” protesting this? Are Pakistanis rioting in the streets to put an end to this brutality against their own women? NO, they are rioting in the streets to kill Westerners and Israels. Sorry, but if it looks like a duck……
5. sxs537: Thank God for George W. Bush. There is a reason why such an attack did not take place till now on American Soil after 9/11.
MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY.
A few days before these attacks I read that the new President of Pakistan was ordering a purge of Islamic fanatics from ISI.
Could these attacks in Mumbai be a response? Consider that even in the United States, the President does not have real control of the CIA. Who do you think leaked those politically embarrassing reports of CIA activity to the New York Times? There were and probably still are elements in the CIA who were trying to engineer regeime change right here at home.
I think that the attacks in India are the result of extremist elements in the ISI fighting back against the government of Pakistan. They probably figure that if Pakistan is on the brink of war with India, the President will not have time to go rooting out supporters of terrorism from his intelligence service. Interestingly, the President of Pakistan has announced that he will cooperate with India to find out who is responsible. Now of course, he is a politician and he may be lying, but it seems that may be a more beneficial approach to take than calling Pakistan a “cancer” as Bridgit Johnson did in her article or the “poor little oppressed Muslims” response in Junaid Shah’s response.
I’ve been saying for several years that Pakistan is the chief enemy nation, with Saudi Arabia a close second. Why, when they are perceived as being allies who are cooperating in fighting terror? Because they pay lip service to it at best while elements within both countries are hell-bent on exporting and funding violent Jihad. Saudi Arabia funds Wahabbism all over the world. The Taliban is essentially a creation of Pakistan’s ISI. A huge number of the soulless fanatics who are responsible for massacres like Bombay and the 7/7 London bombings are connected with the tribal regions in Waziristan. Both swamps need to be drained. Sadly there is little prospect of Saudi Arabia facing the consequences of its actions until the oil runs out. In the case of Pakistan, rather more robust measures can be taken.
Just a year or so after the Iraq war began I was discussing the GWOT with a colleague who is a practicing Muslim light. I don’t believe he goes to Mosque or prays three times a day but he does eat port. He made this point that a few commenters here are making, that only a small fraction of Muslim are Islamic extremist. My reply is that only a small portion of Germans were Nazi extremists.
I then told him about Kinglsy Wood, notorious for a response made to Leo Amery MP in late 1939, during the so called phoney war, when asked why the RAF, rather than just scattering leaflets could not incendiary bomb sizeable arms dumps known to be hidden in the Black Forest, which was very dry after a hot summer. A shocked Wood responded: “Are you aware it is private property? Why, you will be asking me to bomb Essen [the home of major arms manufacturer Krupp] next!” Four years later the British Air Force put 1000 warplanes over Hamburg Germany. They dropped enough Napalm on the center of the city to incinerate 20,000 Germans. This we now remember as the greatest generation.
I figure guys like the head of Laksar Talb, Zarahiri, Bin Laden, and Nasrallah look at the Western democracies in the way that Hitler and Stalin did. They see an affluent, bourgeois society where people don’t want to fight. There are too many more pleasant alternatives – making money and spending it, enjoying hobbies and sports, indulging children. That desire to avoid wars is reflected in the political leadership during periods of peace. The authoritarian extremist sees this and gets the idea – first I can blackmail. When blackmail succeeds, thought move to conquest. There may be something in the authoritarian extremist mindset that can’t see how quickly a change in public sentiment can become a change in policy.
Muslims urgently need to take responsibility for the extremists their societies generate and stop the attacks. The risk to their society is very great if they do not.
JFM
Many of the best soldiers in the Pakistani army are Pushtun from the NWFT. If asked to attack their kinsmen or fellow tribes members they are likely to have disciplinary problems. That is why they are stationed somewhere else, which often means facing India.
I would hope that the Pakistanis have competent soldiers who are not from the NWFT but the fact is that tribesmen from those areas find the army to be an attractive career. Besides the appeal of the ‘three hots and cot’ aspect, they don’t mind the military discipline or the ‘shooting at people and getting shot at’ aspect of the job either.
I’ve been trying to comprehend what the true motive is behind these attacks and I have to say after a considerable amount of objective reasoning Taimur here has it right in post #15
Was the goal of this highly coordinated yet extremely unexpected really an attempt to deliver fear and chaos to a longstanding Indian foe or rather an act of provocation.
If you believe this was a radical group from Pakistan sending a message to India…I ask you what is the message? Perhaps it reads something like this? :
——
Dear India,
Some of us here in Pakistan are desperate for death, turmoil, and grief. While we have hoped for some time that you would gather the necessary force to bring us to our knees, it’s apparent that you remain disinterested and this troubles us. As an incentive, we have sent a small group of highly trained men to Mumbai. They will terrorize British and American citizens in hopes that perhaps THEIR governments, who clearly understand what terrorist threats are supposed to lead to, understand our sheer determination to be invaded and perhaps destroyed, and help you muster the fear and anger necessary to finally deliver the destruction we so dearly wish for. Call me and tell me what you think of our awesome plan!
All the best, Y
Your sworn enemy in Pakistan
P.S. Please don’t play softball. We killed many innocent people to show you how ruthless we can be…we expect no less in return!… THanks!
————–
All sarcasm aside, the point is this- These were coordinated acts of provocation, apparently designed to draw fear from British and American citizens and yet another the cry for action against terrorism abroad. Why? Ask yourself, why?
Which is it now? Are these Pakistani attackers religious extremists delivering yet another bout of chaos and fear to a longtime enemy or a highly trained and elusive force delivering a coordinated and controlled attack on the US and Britain via India? How closely does this recent action compare to previous coordinated attacks on India by Pakistani extremists?
Again, these are acts of provocation, but provocation to what end? A serious chess player understands that leaving any position exposed to attack clearly has a greater purpose that must be determined.
This is not the time to jump to conclusions. Think about it.
TO: All
RE: [al Qaeda] Life Imitates Tom Clancy Novels
First we had 9/11, probably inspired by Tom Clancy’s Debt of Honor.
Additionally, I understand Iran has been buying up a LOT of monkey’s, a la Tom Clancy’s Executive Orders.
Now we have 11/26, in India, which looks to me for all the world like Tom Clancy’s Teeth of the Tiger.
Maybe the CIA should retain Tom Clancy as a consultant.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Great men, great nations, have not been boasters and buffoons, but perceivers of the terror of life, and have manned themselves to face it. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
wow..so many people writing .
i bet half of them are sitting in their luxury beds using laptops enjoying a cup of tea and making stupid comments.
every one is blaming pakistan can some one tell me what benifit pakistan will have from events like that.
why is it that india does not take responsibility for its policies in kashmir ?? ..foreign policy about pakistan, …against tamils and in eastern sides .
and all those who are talking about pakistan…….well for all those people ….american and british military might couldnt not control alqeeda ….both usa and uk are loosers in afghanistan and iraq…that is why they are not pushing pakistan to do more……and pakistan is doing more that is why uk and usa troops are safe…
that is why pakistan is endangered.
i m sure this event is a mastermid on indian secret service RAW…to start another 9/11 sorta stuff in south asia and put pressure on pakistan.
why dont indians take blame for total failure of inteligence , and inefficiency of so called elite forces ,
it means indians have too many things to improve including thier blame game….
take responsibility for your failure….dont be like a lazy dog who always barks more and does less.
and all those who are asking shah to take a pill…well guz take a chill and keep watching ur elite forces been battered by few street goons..
bour3 writes:
“Do you always YELL LIKE THIS when you speak? … Whereas, I see a spattering of caps and realize right then that I’m reading a lunatic.”
..what do you see when a person writes in all lower case?
SORRY TO FLY ODD THE HANDLE AND SUCK ALL OF THE OXYGEN OUT OF THE ROOM.
36. Chuck Pelto writes:
“TO: All
RE: [al Qaeda] Life Imitates Tom Clancy Novels
First we had 9/11, probably inspired by Tom Clancy’s Debt of Honor.”
..and we’re back to “Debt of Honor” again except now we’re losing the war to the Japanese auto-makers (again).
Where are Clark and Chavez when we really need them?
TO: rashid
RE: What Benefit?
What benefit did al Qaeda gain from 9/11?
Or 3/11 in Spain? Or 7/7 in England?
As it is written….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Isn't sanity just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, the sky's the limit! -- The Tick]
Perhaps everyone needs to calm down. As Laura said when the author referred to a “cancer” in Pakistan, she didn’t mean that the entire country was cancerous but rather it was time that the diseased elements in Pakistan be removed. Pakistan is a country that has a difficult time fighting its internal diseases; think of it as a country with a weak “immune system.” This makes Pakistan a sick country that will likely infect those that touch it. For those with children, you can’t help but to see them sometimes as “disease factories.” Just because our children’s immune systems are yet immature, it doesn’t mean that we should destroy them before the rest of us become sick. We hope, on the other hand, that they can grow up to be healthy adults with less of a propensity to develop and communicate disease.
As to the American audience: let us not forget the periodic experimentation with “cancerous” terrorism in this country! Do we remember what happened when we recently rooted out a potential terrorist enclave in Waco, Texas? Do we remember how that action–perhaps necessary, perhaps not–flew in the face of our own laws and customs? Certainly we have not forgotten Timothy McVeigh’s response to that action at the Federal Building in Oklahoma City? (Go back further and study our response to Anarchist terrorism in the late 19th and early 20th century, especially following the assassination of President McKinley. Also go back further and study our response to Native American terrorism.) Dealing with these kinds of complex socio-economic-political problems is very difficult indeed. Keep in mind that Pakistan is younger country (as a political entity) than the United States, and that its socio-economic-political problems are much older and more complex than anything we have experienced here in the United States. It is no wonder that they don’t (yet) have these sorts of problems under control.
We never did catch Poncho Villa.
TO: Войска ПВО
RE: [OT] Japanese Cars
Heh. I drive a Toyota. One of the best cars I’ve ever owned. And I see the stupid American cars on the side of the road with their hoods up or flat out abandoned more often than I see the Japanese ones.
And people wonder why the Big Three of Detroit are going bankrupt?
I’m proud to be an American, but that doesn’t mean I’m STUPID about my money.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities. -- Winston Churchill]
Pakistan is a dysfunctional country – not only is it ethnically Balkanized, its people have the highest rate of schizophrenia on earth – nearly 2%. In-breeding and fanatically memorizing the Koran will do that.
Pakistan needs to be broken up on ethnic lines into a group of lesser ‘stans who can either live at peace or be held individually responsible for any misdeeds they commit.
The pathological construct that is today’s Pakistan is like a family of demented people shooting at their neighbours. They blame their victims for their own murderous hatred whilst hiding from retribution behind their own women and children. See terror apologists on e.g. this current thread.
The swamp needs to be drained. Whatever India needs to do, basically.
Gilligan
It is true that many of the best Pakistani soldiers are Pushtun but Punjabis are nor considered to be bad. Anyway, my informant tells that the people who were marched to their death it is not that they wern’t the best that Pakistan can muster. It is that they were not even part of the Army (I think their name is the frontier Corps, not sure). Anyway I have to reiterate that I haven’t cross checked his allegations and that in order to be sure we need to have more detailed info. Numbers (a force who was obviously too small for the task or one who was likely to be more than enough?), quality of troops, heavy weapons, artillery, tank and air support (not merely present but in the general area but acting), combat reports (does it look like the rebels knew much more than recon and “normal” spying could provide. We can be paranoid and imagine a third rate force without any support of heavy weapons, hevaily outnumbered by the guys and these being informed by the ISI of the most conveninet place to ambush them.
My purpose was to illustrate that “they lost many people fighting the Taliban” is only a proof of commitment when you end the sentence with “but at the end they crushed them”. A defeat can be due to weakness but it can also be deliberate. You don’t know for sure without investigating the whole thing.
Instead of focussing on countries, try this on for size: a Muslim in Denmark has more in common
with a Muslim in Pakistan, than with a Christian
in Denmark.
Too many people have been trying to put round pegs in square holes.
So, don’t look at the borders in dealing with the sons of Allah, as Orianna Fallaci called them.
kartar singh:
hi there
terrorists again …apart from my patriotic feelings for my mother land i have few questions to ask
1. why was this a complete intelligence failure.
Because India is an open country, like America, which somehow sees 100 tons of cocaine and 150,000 illegals penetrating our Borders every year.
Now, if India was North Korea, you would have a point about borders and shores manned 24/7 by vigilant soldiers in their 3 million-man Army plus each citizen who has a duty to repel foreigners on pain of death.
And you sound like an American Lefty whining that both our intel activities “trammels precious enemy privacy rights, shreds or Constitution” – AND fails to be perfect in knowing all things everywhere about everyone.
2. where was our navy , if these terrorists were sent in by neighbouring country.
Your Navy is not geared for defending every inch of Indian coastline against small boat penetration or shadowing every merchant ship to ensure it is not trying to smuggle something in on your long, long coastline. To get that capacity, which no nation with a long coastline really has, India would need to spend 20-30 times as much on coastal naval capacity. It isn’t worth it.
However, your Navy is good at meting out consequences to mother ships of terrorists or pirates once they are spotted doing something. Apparantly, they have captured the ship and crew involved in sending the terror squads in. And are having meaningful heart-to-heart conversations with the Pakis of that vessel.
3. isnt it incompetancy of anti terrorist squard, their chief getting killed even before action started.
Word is he died a hero’s death leading one of the initial counter-assaults. That is not incompetency. Getting killed by enemy while doing your duty does not make a soldier or official “incompetent”.
4. why it took so long for our forces to enter building.
Ask any rescue and forced entry team in any country..you seem to think it is a simple thing. They don’t.
5. why even after 45 hours they are unable to control the situation.
Because the Indians are methodically trying to end it with as few casualties as possible, not let the Muslim terrorists escape, taking their time rather than rush in half-assed.
6.how come these terrorists ve got so much information and knowledge about these buildings.
Ever hear of scouts posing as tourists, tourism guides, the Internet? It helps when you have Pakis born in Britain that appear to be involved in this attack, that are free to scout and case targets for months…plus no doubt Indian Muslims rendering some local help.
7. Are our forces so incompetent tht our anti terrorist squads, police, ngs commandos, naval commandos, intelligence , crime branch etc. all together can not get rid of few terrorists in 45 hours. what if we go to war can we expect them to save us.
You don’t know what is involved in the duties and capacities of any of those groups, the matter of hostages, terrorists dug into defensive positions, need to establish a cordon so no Islamoid escapes…so you are really not fit to comment on it.
8.why were these terrorists let loose.
Huh?
9.if our neighbours are involved will we let them do these acts every other day ? why cant we stop it the way usa did by invading its enemy .
Simple. Write your elected Representatives in India, your BHP leader and explain you want to invade and start a nuclear war over this.
*******************
Laura:
5. sxs537: Thank God for George W. Bush. There is a reason why such an attack did not take place till now on American Soil after 9/11.
MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY.
What killed Bush’s Presidency was his single-minded fixation on “Evildoers!!”. His neglect of all his other duties and instructions to his agencies that they should similarly ignore the tasks and duties they had in running the country – and put “terrorism-fighting” as their main objective.
Hurricanes, veto of reckless spending, oversight on Wall Street, illegals pouring across our Borders, relations with other nations, corruption and fiscal irresponsiblity, enormous legal issue bungles, an uncorrected health care system that kills 95,000 people a year by “misadventure” and another 18,000 from lack of health insurance, a bungled Iraq War…All from lack of leadership and proper attention, prioritization, by the Executive Branch.
All deemed “unimportant” at one point or completely – since 2001 – compared to “Evildoers!!”. Now, in ordinary people, such fear & fixation is understandable, even excusable…but not in Presidents or even one’s own employees who may do one thing superbly but have to be let go because they neglect other critical job duties..
Past Presidents from FDR on to Reagan&Bush I had faced far more dangerous foes than 20,000 primitively armed Muslim fanatics – yet, with the possible exception of Jimmy Carter, they managed to discharge ALL the duties of the Presidency.
The next President has tremendous messes to clean up that started or festered on Bush’s watch. I’m sure there will be a few kindly words for Bush as he leaves, just as there were for Carter and Gerald Ford..
So tired of Moslem excuses for their terrorism.
So cowardly of Moslem terrorists to attack unarmed civilians.
Gee isn’t Pakistan the country our esteemed stole to back when OTHER AMERICANS were prohibited. How did HE get in.
India has always tried to improve relations with Pakistan but what has it got in return Kargil, Attack on Indian Parliament, Pakistan giving safe haven to Dawood Ibrahim, Hijackers of Indian Airlines Plane, Providing training facilities in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir to terrorists. If Pakistan is so serious about helping India why doesn’t it start by vacating Dawood from his Karachi Palace & handing him to India. Getting rid of training camps in POK will also be a good start.
What a convenient argument for Pakistan- we are victims of terrorism ourselves? Remember who is attacking you- Al Qaida for turning your back on Taliban. It has nothing to do with India. But attacks on India have everything to do with Pakistan.
Dear Pakistanis, solving a problem first requires acknowledging the problem. Rest of the world is still praying that God will give you the wisdom to understand this.
The reasons for this attack on Mombai are contained in the Koran, the hadith of Bukhari and the Sira by Ibn Ishaq. It is jihad against the kafir and has been on-going in various modes and areas of the world since the 7th century. For instance, the Hindu Kush, Hindu slaughter by islamic jihadis on such a scale that the mountainous range was given this name.
Islam is more a political beast than it is a culture and religion and its mohammedan politics include the submission and degradation of the kafir (you and me)by speech, pen and sword. See http://www.politicalislam.com
Not only should the CIA hire Tom Clancy as a consultant, but they should also hire Joel Rosenberg.
TO: myth buster
RE: Joel Rosenberg
Not sure where ‘fantasy’ figures into reality.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[I've given up the search for reality; now I'm just looking for a good fantasy.]
Re: Rashid (comment #38)
Typical idiot drivel from a typical terrorist tool:
1) “We didn’t do it. And…
2) “We only did it because of our [fill-in-the-blank] grievance. And…
3) “We’re winning.”
Reality: You did do it. Your “grievances” are mostly lies. And you’re getting your asses kicked; (but not fast enough for most of us).
“They love death, and we love to kill them. Everybody’s happy.” –SSgt Kilroy, USMC
Heh.
Nicole Tedsco (comment #42)
Your knee-jerk moral equivalence impresses other fools only.
Ok, so nobody’s perfect, even us. Duh! We figured that out in high school. Most of us don’t need to keep repeating it like it’s “deep wisdom” instead of mostly ignorant blue-neck bigotry.
Some of us (like Islamo-fascists) are a lot more imperfect than others (like Americans). Most of us figured that out in high school, too.
And now you know it. (Without ever even going to high school. How cool is that!)
rashid – can some one tell me what benifit pakistan will have from events like that
The nation of Pakistan as a whole cannot possibly benefit from these killings. On the other hand, there are members of ISI who could benefit quite a bit if tensions between Pakistan and India brought on by these attacks cause the new president of Pakistan to call off his plans to purge advocates of Islamic terrorism from that intelligence organization. Sadly, there are some people who put their own interests and ambitions above the welfare of their country.
Many good questions and points above.
Saddens me that anyone would do this for religious or political beliefs but thats terrorism today. As faiths go, Islam seems particularly infected with violence,unable to convey the real beauty of the religion that is peace and understanding. It seems that the uneducated, illiterate majority are in charge of faith teaching and mind-moulding in the worst sense. Pakistan is so far behind India since their united creation and this shame reflects on the Muslim state as failing it’s people. How can Pakistan be in such a state? Simple, Pakistan has never respected Democracy, they believe in rule by the strong over the majority idiots. Religion pervades life to such an extent that no other belief system over rules this.
You guys are fishing, i.e. you don’t know jack about how this really happened or who these guys really are yet. It’s a joke to make assertions that the article is making when, right now, the whole event still isn’t over, yet alone investigated. But leave it up to the illustrious pajamas media to make up a bunch of crap like this while the mothers of slain children are still mourning over their bodies, rest their souls. To have no right, nor ability to lay blame on anyone’s doorstep yet.
But this is what “conservatives” always do – instead of asking questions to get information, they suddenly begin making baseless assertions to reinforce their deluded point of view. Boy, I’m glad you chumps are out of power, not it’ll just take 50 years to repair all the damage you idiots have done since you never, ever, clean up your own messes or even admit that you were wrong in the first place.
National security is the number one issue. Without that nothing else matters. I would rather be safe and have a little less money than have what is going on in other countries. Are you lefties satisfied the US 50 states (not 57 Islamic states that Obama blurted out) will be as safe under Obama/Biden/Hillary& Bill vs Bush/Cheney/Rice. If your Golden Gate Bridge gets whacked or a repeat of Mumbai happens here don’t start crying or blaming the 57 million people who voted for McCain. You’re all too busy sniveling over gay marriage and the censorship doctrine to focus on what really matters.
Chuck Pelto writes:
“Heh. I drive a Toyota. One of the best cars I’ve ever owned.”
Chuck, no argument about cars or quality. I own a 2000 Camry (60,000 miles in L.A.!) and a 2000 Jeep Cherokee (99,000 miles in L.A.!) and love them both. But they are maintained and cared for and seem to run fine. Also, I have done contract I.T. work over the past 30 years that has included gigs at Nissan (then Datsun), Mazda, Honda, and Toyota and they took care of their employees very well without unionization.
What a lot of people don’t realize is that there’s lot of Japanese car business that’s operated here in U.S. factories — so, if the UAW won’t become competitive, then there might be a lot of work for those factories in the South (particularly Tennessee) that wlll.
By the way, you are dead on with your Tom Clancy observations. Re-reading Executive Orders sends a shiver up my spine — not a tingle down my leg — when I think about Iran’s intentions.
The only way to stop Pakistan’s Inter-Service Intelligence Agency from organizing and perpetrating attacks like that at Mumbai is to eliminate the Pakistani state. While this would result in different problems, perhaps even worse ones, elimination of the Pakistani state would definitely eliminate Pakistani state support for terrorism.
I read a report in debka.com that some Indian military officials identify many of the Muslim terrorists as Pakistani British citizens.
We always knew that the U.K. harbored some of the worst of the worst and we’ve been warning the British that they have been far too nice with their Muslim populations. Well, well…
India is a joke of a banana republic in many many ways. I would know. I live here. However, what Pakistan is, is simple “Its not India” – thats the basis on which that country was founded. India for all its problems has survived wars, 26 languages, 5000 years…what Pakistan will never get over is that there has been an “India” or an “Idea of India” for thousands of years….everyone wanted to find India, come to India…Who would know Pakistan on the map if it werent next to India?
As for muslims in India, how is it that we’ve had a muslim President, Muslim man the richest man in India, a tennis icon who’s muslim, cricketers who are muslim etc etc…I agree that there has been a ghettoization of muslims in India but its partly their own fault and a political fault….different laws, different educational systems despite equal opportunity by the Indian state – who’s to blame? The system yes but dont you think that clerics and their ilk who forbid their daughters to work, who exhort people to only learn the Koran etc play a role? and India is a fundamentally political society – politics is the key to power…how is there no national Indian muslim party worth mentioning…India has no muslim leadership to speak of…
Why is it that Indian educated muslims would still move back to India but the educated elite of Pakistan is to busy being middlemen selling arms living in Dubai or London or being Pakistani investment bankers in NY despite the fact that they hate that ‘goddamn’ country.
I have Pakistani friends who come to India and marvel how much ahead we are in every way…whether its having an almost free press, women’s rights (at least on paper), hundreds and thousands of NGOs and charities and at least some level of accountability….very little but its there…
This is just resentment. But some point India will wake up and say “an eye for an eye” may make the whole world blind but its still the prudent thing to do in the short term….otherwise there wont be a long term…
All of The 62 People(Apart From A few Have Spoken All Bullshit)…Islam Is A Very Very Peaceful And Tranquil Religion..Some Minorities Within it Enjoy Giving it a bad name..You have wahabbis for eg..but let’s not go into that..i’m shocked to see how very so called educated and literate among you bicker amongst yourselves blaming it on each other..and if you are so well enlightened about the on going situation.I Can’t even believe how you even consider these terrorists as muslims when you very well Know the fact that islam dosen’t support such stuff..grow up people..First Get Your Facts Right..Islam Is A Religion that forbids fightibg with s=children,aged people,women and even forbids to kill a person who has shown his back to you..These are rules of war that you won’t find in any other religion…this is real jihad..but some of the so called enlightened people here say IT’S THE MUSLIMS WHO ARE THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL THE TERROR..But you people just don’t seem to get the facts that it’s not muslims doing this..i’ts not even muslims supporting this..Every Middle Class And Above Muslim Family All Over The Muslim World Knows This And Strongly Condemns This…But All Of You Just Don’t Seem To Get THis..Because You Sit In America ..Live Safe,Watch TV Have A bit of alcohol and Start give your baseless reviews on these critical situations there just because the word islam is in this point of time associated with terrorism..youpass racist remarks on muslims or fellow asians on thata matter which is just normal in your view..Why Am I Saying All This..Because I’m An American And I’ve Done This..Next Day Any Hindu Or Christian Or Another Muslim Will Start Firibg In The Market Place Or Blow Himself Up And You Will Blame All This On The Muslims…Do You Think Islam Or Muslims On that Matter Support Such Dastardly Acts Sve For A Few..I Look At All Your Lame Remarks And I am Shocked..Muslims Live Under Terror In India After Such Attacks Because They Know At The End The Finger Will Be Pointed At The Muslims.Pakistan’s People Do’t Suppoert These Acts..But It’s Nation Right Now Is Too Weak TO Protects it’s Borders..Still You Want To Eliminate Pakistan..It’s Dumb People Like You Who In The First Place Spread Such Hatred..LeT,SIMI,AL Qaeda All These Stupid Organizations Based on Baseless Ideologies Are Just Hypothetical..Every Sane Muslim Hates Them..I HATE Them..Wahabbis And Ppl From NWFP Don’t Hate Them…Point The Finger At Them And Pakistan Not At Us..Because Muslims Are Secular And Moving Forward.
It is heartening (for the most part) to see that my comments stirred some emotions and caused so many others to comment. I read all yours carefully and tried to make a sense of everyone’s comments. India has long suffered from terrorism and so does Pakistan. It is sickening when someone disturbs your peaceful life as you go about doing your daily routine and all of a sudden the whole system comes to a halt due to some moron. I was in Islamabad when the Marriot blast happened and I was 2 miles from that place. I saw, how the whole city which otherwise is very lively, changed and became a ghost town for months that followed. I have plenty of friends, 2 very close ones in India, whom I have lived with. Trust me, Pakistanis are and always will be upset and will be against any act of terror and/or destruction in India. We don’t need no WHITE westerners to tell us how to be a good neighbour. We speak each others languages, we share cultures, we share music, clothes, appreciation for arts, food and lots more. To top it all, we don’t even take as much PRIDE in NATIONALISM as some of these westerners do. They are soo proud to be OH FRENCH, ENGLISH, AMERICANS etc etc and can and will kill in the name of NATIONHOOD. I think we have a MORE human approach. That is why, even the WARS that we fought among each other have been called gentlemen’s wars as we didn’t kill and maim civilians as is very often done in Western wars and then so conveniently called collateral damage. Anyways, the point is that there should not be an iota of doubt that Pakistani populace wants anything but peace with India. I think as any wise person would tell us is that after a time of great tragedy, use your sane head and don’t ride on emotions so much.
I do have quite a few replies for some of the interesting readings that I did today. And here I go:
ANAND: I am sorry that you feel so hurt that you can’t even write a couple of line straight. You sound like Bush with your BRING IT ON line. Please spare us the BS and write something meaningful.
JUNAID is a terr… SUPPORTER: The author is without a doubt using a very acrimonious language against Pakistan. I read the article again and came to the same conclusion. The fact that Pakistan has been blamed for this before the whole drama even ended is offensive and belligerent in nature. And the fact, that anyone who opposes your point of view automatically gets labelled a terrorist speaks volumes about your narrow mindedness and your lack of seriousness about a serious dialogue. Please stop judging my IQ level and focus on what you really are trying to accomplish by writing a few words here.
TIM: Are muslims trying to wipe out jews?? I am surprised at your such a one sided view of the issue. It is a known fact that victims in Palestinian Israeli dispute are Palestinians and they very much undeniably have been kicked out of the land that they rightfully owned for centuries and have been incarcerated in the world’s largest open air prison called Gaza strip under the most inhumane conditions and then have been labelled as terrorist for trying to struggle against this injustice. Even Gandhi spoke against jewish injustice back in 1938. Goto Twitter.com and pull up some actual photo journalistic stories on Gaza. There are heart wrenching stories of injustice (provided if you have any heart). Every resolution on Isreali-Palestinian issue at UN is voted in manner where it pretty much boils down to Israel-US vs. the rest of the world. Think about it!
LAURA: I don’t know what country are your from but rape and objectifying of women in any of the western countries is no less if not more than that in poor-ol Pakistan. Stop generalising and try to make more sense out of all the news that have created this mayhem in your coconut shell.
SANDBOX: What you are suggesting for the Muslim population of your country is pretty much that of an appartheid state’s policy that either kick out all the muslims or put them in ghettos as 11th class citizens. I wish your Gov’t has the courage to do what you are suggesting so that your always skin deep racisism and hatred that your kind is fostering just comes out in the open for us naives to actually see and so we can prepare accordingly. Hah!
JFM: You are claiming Pakistan as your enemy and justifying reason for India to help implode it. Pakistan is in a mess and do you see things spilling over to India. Do you really want your incredible India to be dealing with the consequences of imploding Pakistan on their 2000 mile shared border?? Pakistanis have always and inshallah will always be stronger than you Hindus will us a credit for. We are and always will be the survivors as we are strong and you hindus know it in your heart. Pakistanis are NOT as loosely held bunch as you are giving us a credit of being. Most of the Pakistan army is from Punjab and alot from NWFP as they are the most populated regions. ISI doesn’t benefit from attacks in Mumbai as they don’t serve any purpose to Pakistan’s well-being and since ISI’s job is to look after Pakistan’s well-being therefore … ok. In the war that Pakistan fought against Taliban, Pakistan has lost many senior military officers including 2 major generals which died in terrorist attacks on them therefore the soldiers are not view as cannon fodder. Ok, another accusation from you that Hindus have been ethnically cleansed, ever since partition, there has NOT been even a single incident in Pakistan like what happened in Gujrat India and many other Indian states where Hindu mobs burnt their minority victims such as Muslims and Christians. Bring me one documented evidence. And if you want to see Gujrat riots and proof, just google it and you will Muslim being burnt alive by Hindu mobs.
Kevin R.C. O’Brien and Rob: You guys nailed it on the head, you guys get it. Thank you.
Barbara: The correct word is MUSLIMS and NOT MOSLEMS
TOBY: You sound like a Pinhead who is making a futile effort to get a grip on issues behind the issues, which I commend you for that, but buddy you have a long way to go before you can start throwing your pitiable 2 cents in. India and Pakistan have been festering ill feeling, I should say mostly India because they still view Pakistan as one of their dismembered state. Read some history of the region and you might begin to see things in perspective.
DAVID W. LINCOLN: People, regardless of their religion (jewish, muslims, christians, hindus) when migrate as a first generation, they never give up their ways of the motherland and religion. Islam teaches its followers to be moderate and somewhat conservative in dressing and other walks of life and when muslims while living in Denmark or whereever, reject too many western vices such as Alcohol, nudity etc, they are NOT being anti-western, just PRO-ISLAMIC and ANTI-PERVERSION. Think about it.
SANJAY: If Dawood is in Pakistan and it is such an open secret, then why doesn’t India and its secret service RAW point out his residence in karachi as has been challenged by Pakistani media several times. Stop reading VHP sponsored newspapers too much.
KUL: Pakistan until 1990 was twice as much as India as far as per capita income but 90s was a bad decade for Pakistan and certainly put us behind.
Tom Paine: You moron, try to engage with the other side in an equal manner rather than beginning your Paragraph with labelling TERRORIST on every Muslim you communicate with. It pisses Muslims off as RIGHT WING TERRORISTS like you call all Muslims a terrorist and defeats the purpose of having any meaningful dialogue. Us muslims are NOT going to change our religion just because YOU PINHEADS don’t wanna understand our point of view and wanna hurl abuses at us, makes us more DETERMINED to defend our FAITH and makes us realize that it MIGHT be afterall a WAR against Islam (bad for you). You must be ONE of those WANNABE Rush Limbaugh’s or Sean Hannity types, aren’t you, you small penised naughty f__k face redneck. Thank God, the sanity prevailed and Obama won, hopefully there will be CHANGE and your KIND will be SHUT forever (very important for World Peace
Tom Holsinger: Please stop following Fox and also visit websites like http://www.thenews.com.pk and http://www.Dawn.com and news.bbc.co.uk to get a little more balanced perspective on this evolving story.
Talks between India and Pakistan about resolving the issue of India stealing Pakistan’s water by building illegal dam have been postponed by India to the very annoyance of millions of Pakistani common men. Ofcourse, no comment from anti-muslim, hate-ridden media. Depriving a population of hundreds of millions of a much needed water for their crops automatically translates into an invitation for an all out conflict. An all out conflict is what everyone should try to avoid, no matter how pissed off you are, especially when nuclear weapons are involved.
Well friends, the point I want to reiterate is that it is wrong to rejoice anyone’s death. Afterall, we are all mortals and will die one day, one way or another. Human values are shared and killing of innocents is looked down upon in any society. I don’t want to sound apologetic for the terrorist who caused this mayhem but I don’t want Pakistanis to be accussed of wrong-doing when we didn’t do anything. The finger pointing is hurtful and it takes us further back as peace is the only way forward. The hawks always want a quick solution and as wisemen put it “HASTE MAKES WASTE” so will it this time as well. Indian brethren should not get hasty and Westerners should try to use their better judgement and try to help in a genuine way to make things better.
Plenty of surveys have been done in Pakistan over making a peace with India and they all point to one simple fact that overwhelming majority of Pakistanis including politicians want to make a lasting peace with India. Indians however, are a little more suspicious of us than we are of them. We have and always will take several steps toward India to make it happen but IT TAKES 2 TO TANGO. Pakistani president has already offered dedicated resources including ISI to India to help sort investigations out. This is unprecedented and hopefully is going to be seen as a sincere act as it is across the border. We love our Indian friends and expect love in return. Our hearts go out to all those that are hurt by this incident. May we all find lasting peace, amen.
TO: All
RE: Mr. A….
….is so full of it, it is something to behold.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival. -- Winston Churchill]
Speaking of cancer, the most dangerous form of cancer, or any other disease that struck humanity in general, and Americans in particular, is American conservative establishment. These sick animals have brought the house roof down on top of Americans, yet no American seems to have waken up yet.This shows that they have also poisoned Americans beyond the point of hope and recovery.
TO: All
RE: serajaddin
I guess Mr. A brought a ‘friend’ of his along with him.
And talk about SERIOUS ‘projection’….”sick animals” is absolutely correct.
Oddly enough serajaddin doesn’t seem to recall that the REALLY ‘sick animals’ are the mass murderers in Mumbia and on 9/11 and 3/11 and 7/7.
Just goes to show you who is REALLY ‘sick’ around here.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Projection, n., Inaccurately describing in someone else what you are yourself.]
TO: All
RE: More Interesting Comments
Yeah….
….their ‘peace negotiators’ at Mumbai speak volumes.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Talk is cheap. Deeds speak louder than words.]
P.S. About that ‘Doing Something’ business….
…you sure as heck got THAT right.
You did NOTHING to stop this from happening. Which is the principle problem I’ve noticed with Islam these last seven years.
You talk a good fight about wanting ‘peace’. But I only see murder and barbarism coming out of your religion.
If you’re all for ‘peace’, maybe if you did something about the mass murderers in your midst, we could believe you. But, for some strange reason, you don’t do squat.
Why is that?
What if there’s logic in the madness? What if the purpose of it was to provoke an India/Pakistani war? Could such a war be recast as a Holy War in Pakistan and useful to promote the establishment of a fundy government? Which side would India’s 200 million moslems take? Would a war have his additional bonus: the disruption of the land routes in Pakistan that NATO relies on to resupply the forces in Afghanistan? In sum, might the the people behind this calculate that when the smoke cleared they’d be rulers of a regional moslem superpower, possessing nukes, and incorporating Afghanistan and Pakistan?
Not affirming, just thinking out loud.
Junaid says
“The real issue is that so-called INTELLECTUALS like you are so HUNG-OVER that you keep on FORGETTING what is the real CAUSE of all this i.e., KASHMIR, DISCRIMINATION against MUSLIMS in INDIA, POVERTY, ILLETRACY.”
Yes, there is discrimination in India – against Hindus – because of vote bank policy of corrupt politicians. Did Junaid know that Indian government pays for Muslims to go to Hajj in Mecca, did he know that every major international airport in India has a dedicated Hajj terminal? No Hindus are ever given a dime from their government to go on a pilgrimage.
Some discrimination!
There is an internal logic Chuck.
To accomplish x I need to do y.
It takes long training to eliminate the normal human drive for empathy and compassion for most people. Even at the height of evil the Einzatsgruppen had a high psychological morbidity rate.
So now it is time to take up our ‘bruised arms’ once again. The world cannot live this way.
I think that the security forces of India with broad support from US, UK, Israel, and other allied countries are already working around the clock to unravel the threads and get to the bottom of this. The goal needs to be – destroy this terrorist network – no less.
Spindok
My dear Indian friends, if you really believe that Pakistan sent 30 men to create chaos in Mumbai, then here is something to stress your juvenile minds. Just imagine, if you try to attack Pakistan, what will happen to your army. Your best trained 500 commandos could not control 30 men. In fact these 30 men, armed to the teeth, got off at the Mumbai coast and walked through the streets and entered your five star hotels. They engaged 500 of your best men for 48 hours. Man, I would be shit scared if I was an Indian. With such nincompoop intelligence agencies and shit commandos how will you take the might of the Pakistan army and the anger of the Jihadi Pakistani muslims. Right now I would be shitting in my pants if I was an Indian.
TO: All
RE: Faisal, the Peace-Loving Pakistani
Looks like Bridget Johnson’s premise about the nature of the Pakistanis is correct. This despite the [apparently false] claims of the likes of Junaid Shah.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The truth will out.....]
P.S. Faisal…
….Maybe your sense of pride hasn’t allowed you to noticed this, but your 30 buddies are all dead.
And, based on my understanding of the hereafter, those 70+ ‘virgins’ that are to entertain them, all wear red tights, have long pointed tails, horns and carry pitchforks as their favorite sex-toy.
TO: All
RE: Faisal’s Lack of Understanding
I guess he never heard of some guy by the name of Patton….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[War is the recourse our opponents have chosen, and I say we give them their belly full of it. -- General William Tecumseh Sherman]
Faisal – “Right now I would be shitting in my pants if I was an Indian.”
I see that you, too, have been trained to whistle as you pass the graveyard. Graveyards of full of muslims who thought they were going to crush their enemies outright only to find out that fighting organized armies is far different than attacking women and children in their sleep.
serajaddin is ludicrous beyond belief. However it is typical of islamists and their enablers one finds. There is no defence for what happened in Mombai or on 7/7 or 9/11 but people like him desperately seek to justify the actions.
It seems that the Islamists have discovered PJM. Expect more hatred ad the rest of it towards anything that is not Muslim to be forthcoming.
Chuck Pelto is obviously a foriengner to the English Language. Take some classes and then read my comment.
Many of the responses on this thread firmly establish the case that there is a very robust and active “alliance of convenience” between the Global Left/Socialism and the movement of recrudescent Islamic jihad. Their target: Western Civilization and its variants and allies themselves.
Check out this review of a book on that thesis:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/shadow_world_resurgent_russia.html
Many of Islam’s most active and pesky apologists are members of the socialist movement. David Horowitz’ thesis in his book “Unholy Alliance” has, to my mind, never been refuted by the Left and cannot be, since the facts in the real world solidly support the contention that the Left abides by the same principle of war that the Muslim jihadis put to use: “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”
TO: All
RE: Faisal vs. English
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[This place, what with Faisal, Mr. A, serajaddin and Jundin Shsh is beginning to resemble another multi-idiot pileup on the Cross-Clueville expressway....]
“Faisal” smells like a fake Muslim. A strawman setup drawn by some Jewish adolescent to entice other posters to rail against.
Junaid is 100% authentic, delerious Paki, though.
For the record, we see in the US that even teenage gunmen armed with just a few non-automatic weapons requires a response of several hundred cops and such as the optimal countering, rooting-out, and suppression force. It does not mean the two teen monsters are the EQUAL of several hundred cops. Same applies to 30 Islamoids against 500 Indian soldiers. Many civilians have a warped sense of combat as some game that should be “fair” and you only get to field about as many fighters as your foe and are bligated to use only the same weaponry and level of force – or somehow, the disproportionality of the response gives the terrorist or gunman a “moral victory”.
There are surviving Mumbai terrorists. Now surrounded by “disproportionate” numbers of angry Indian cops and national investigators not the least impressed with their British passport or demands to have a lawyer present at interrogations. I wouldn’t want to be them..
TO: cedarford
RE: I’m Reminded….
….of the line by M. Bonacieux, the husband of Constance, in the Three Musketeers, after he is released from the Bastille by Cardinal Richelieu….
God help me….I’m almost tempted to feel sympathetic for them.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Hell is empty and all the devils are here. -- The surviving Mumbai terrorists, realizing the accuarcy of that line from The Tempest]
If you have the guts and the balls, just try any aggression against Pakistan. My dear friend Chuck Pelto will than have to apply at the Pakistani Embassy for a visa when he feels like visiting the area known as India now.
To all the ones that are thinking there is going to be war, I don’t it is possible or it should be made possible. Don’t you guys get the message, terrorist or their puppet masters achieve their ill conceived goals if this happens. And yes, try to see the glass as half full instead of being stuck half empty.
TO: All
RE: Like I Said….
….he don’t know me vewy well.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. cedarford may be one to something here about Faisal. Probably IS Jewish and an agent provacateur…..
…..which only goes to show you what an ‘idiot-pileup’ this thread is becoming.
TO: All
RE: Junaid Shah, ‘Dork’
This character wouldn’t recognize a ‘war’ if it came up and knocked out his teeth with a butt-stroke of an AK-47.
195 dead bodies piled up around the city and he ‘doubts’ there’s a war going on.
Can anyone be so obtuse? I mean without being either a total idiot or a complete liar?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[It matters little what sheep think, if wolves are of a different opinion.]
Chuk: You ve impressed everyone by your indepth knowledge ranging between bugs bunny to Three Muskateers.
Are you debating constantly that The whole world should BOMB Pakistan/Muslims? and then you ll have a peacefull world? Chuk my friend.. Hell sure looks empty, but the devil is not so obvious. This constant terrorist attacks have made u think like a terrorist!
FAISAL: The moment you are provoked.. you ve lost.
Anjali: yes..and no
Elizbath: Hindu Kush: does not mean kill/murder hindu, it is arabic word meaning Hidu Mountain range (see britanica / wikipedia)
to ALL: If I planned all this, i would be sitting in my strategy room, laughing that the purpose is fulfilled//.. You just need an Emotional Faisal at one end and lucid chuck at other.. and war is ready to be served.
God give strength to familie/friends of those killed. And give us enough acumen to understand whats right and how to react.
PS: Please come to Pakistan, visit the country, understand the positives and problems, then make an opinions. Beleive me, people here are genuinely sad for the incident.
Pakistan has truly become the heart of evil. Almost every terrorist road leads back to that wretched country, from the latest atrocity in Mumbai to the bombings in London to Bin Laden himself. Pakistan has become the world’s leading haven of terror.
In my opinion the most revealing thing about the relationship between India and Pakistan is to see how secular India has thrived and Muslim Pakistan has languished in the fifty years since partition. India is now the second fastest growing large economy in the world, a stable democracy and has a bright future as a great power. Pakistan on the other hand is backward, chronically unstable, poor and now almost bankrupt. Nothing could illustrate better the baleful, retrograde influence of Islam.
The Mohammedans tell us we must convert to their religion, but we look at every country and society that they dominate and see an inferior, backward, wretched, dirty, ugly, poverty-stricken hell. Having nothing good to offer the world, all they can do is murder and maim. It may satitisfy their evil minds, but no-one else is impressed.
Junaid Shah has given several of the most incoherent, content-free rants that I’ve seen recently.
I’m delighted that he saw fit to throw a few idiotic insults my way, however. The guy gives new meaning to the word “stupid”.
Heh.
TO: Talmur
RE:
Glad to see you’re familiar enough with Americana to recognize the inferences.
Your grasp of English could use some more refinement. But based on what I gather from your comment….
….No.
There will not be ‘peace’ until a certain event occurs. Three guesses, first two don’t count.
You know him? How interesting.
How’s he doing lately? I’ve not had much communication with him since that last time he sent one of his lieutenants at me, vis-a-vis a request from a Wiccan. His ‘messenger’ didn’t fare very well. The tumult outside the window of my hotel room sounded like a demented crow having its wings torn off.
You have me all wrong.
I think like a field-grade, combat arms officer of the airborne-ranger persuasion. We’re a tad more selective in our targeting.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[We are surrounded by farking idiots in this pile-up.]
chuck: …
I think this is not the time to blame Pakistan as this could result in tension between India and Pakistan. I am think that the Indian government and media needs to act little more maturely and responsibly. We have seen on several occasions in past when India has blamed Pakistan and Pakistan’s intelligence service but on all those occasions it turned out that the Indian army, police or some security or intelligence agency was responsible for attacks in their own country. These revelations came out of Indian government’s own investigative reports. These are facts which can be checked and not just made up stories as Indian government and press seem to be familiar with! We all want peace, harmony and prosperity. If a neighbouring country is instable, it can cause instability in the whole region. Therefore, both Pakistan and India need to work together to find the culprits and bring them to justice.
Taimur, what do you mean by “Anjali: yes..and no “. Do you agree that Muslims in India enjoy Hajj on behalf of Indian taxpayers or not?
For those who come up with this lame excuse of discrimination against Muslims, does the fact that Hindu majority India is a secular nation and Muslim majority Pakistan an Islamic republic ( for that matter most Islamic majority countries) say anything?
Now a question for the Pakistanis on this site – can a non-muslim hold the high office of Prime minister or President in Pakistan like they can do in India?
TO: All
RE: PZ & HMS Pinafore
I’m reminded of a cute little ditty by the Animaniacs based on Gilbert & Sullivan’s HMS Pinafore….
PZ takes counsel of his/hers/its fears.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[He has not learned the lesson of life who does not every day surmount a fear. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
CHUCK: You are in a very true meaning of the word a MORON of the highest order. Read between the lines, my rants about WAR or NO WAR was more like a hopeful wish for NO WAR.
TOM PAINE: For someone like you who makes his case with 3 or 4 lines and jumps to a conclusion, please don’t even use the word “stupid” on anyone else. I have never met you but I can certainly put you in the bucket of “insecure, hateridden idiots”.
TO ALL THE SANE HEADS OUT THERE: I (we majority Pakistanis) have always wished for a lasting peace everytime. My messages are for those who have a heart and courage to realize that good things can happen if we learn how to work together. All it takes for evil to prevail is for a few good people to stay quiet and inactive.
TO WAR MONGERERS: I know a vaste majority doesn’t want war but for all the ones wishing us Pakistanis ill, thank God, we have Nuclear Weapons and systems ready to deliver them to your doorsteps, so your hatefilled little brains can do the Math and realize that an attack will be VERY VERY counterproductive.
TO FELLOW MUSLIMS: I use to question the fact that there is bias against Muslims in the international media but after the way events are portrayed, I am very much convinced that there is certainly one out there. The forces of destruction are out there to destroy our civilization including the some from among us who attack us in the name of our own religion and then outsiders who draw quick inferences and criminally jump to conclusions to put all of us in the category of extremists. Great danger is lurking upon us, if they want war, then lets give them a mother of all wars so that they never wish for one again.
TO: Junaid Shah
RE: Moron, Eh?
Show me your Mensa membership ID number, buckie.
And your ‘rants’ are nothing more and nothing less than terrorism apologism.
If the Pakistanis REALLY wanted to end terrorism, they’d have done it by now. Instead, they harbor and support them. Maybe indirectly, but still no action against them is support of them.
You don’t like it? Too bad.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
Faisal gives us a clear view of what is deep inside Pakistani psyche! And it is UGLY!
TO: Junaid Shah
RE: THAT….
….sounds like a death-wish for ALL Pakistanis.
And you called ME a ‘moron’?
I think you ‘project’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount. ... The world has achieved brilliance without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. -- General Omar Bradley]
Junaid Shah – “Great danger is lurking upon us, if they want war, then lets give them a mother of all wars so that they never wish for one again.”
For all your BS about wanting peace, I see you end with the party line of the same people who carried out this attack.
You need to stay in the jihad apologist training program a bit longer before actually posting again. I hope posting here isn’t a part of your final grade because you’re failing miserably. You moved from one predictable talking point to the next in an illogical manner and in your attempts to seem like you’re replying to others, you skipped the actual response and simply began your talking points again.
Go back to reading the examples of effective posting they have stored on disk for you and study them more carefully. I can tell you think your partial mastery of English makes you very effective, but while I’m sure that impresses your friends, it’s not good enough. You also seem to have great difficulty in rephrasing your talking points. The whole idea is to avoid copying them word for word from your instruction booklet.
Good luck with your further study. With sufficient dedication on your part, one day you may be able to pass as a simple-minded leftie. As of now, though, you come across as just a tiny, yapping, puppy dog.
Oh, and by the way, he isn’t greater or even jack chit.
Junaid, Faisal and his ilk will never change. It is fruitless to argue with them. They do not have facts on what they claim. They just want to come across us discriminated by everybody all over the world and holier than thou attitude. Better use of our time and effort will be to write to our representatives in the government and letting them know of what we think. We need to make sure that Muslims here do not end up getting all the privileges they get in India and then get all their hatred and contempt in return.
sent from: fav.or.it [FID3334521]
ANJALI: If you didn’t share the common name with a girlfriend I had while in US, I would use some harsh language with you but I can’t (too many sweet memories). Privileges of Muslims in India…. RIGHT. Have you been to U.P. and Bihar, 2 of the poorest states of India, mostly Muslims. I have met numerous Muslims from India and they all have stories of discrimination, despite the fact that they are all very patriotic to their country. I can feel their pain and can sympathise with their dilemma. If you live in US or somewhere in West and work for some big company, you will meet plenty of Indians but 99% or more of them are all Hindus. Is it coincidental or do Hindus have brains larger than those of Muslims? Afterall, Muslims did rule India for over 800 yrs and gave India all what it is famous for today from its architecture to authentic cuisines, arts and culture (please don’t deny this irrefutable claim). Look, India is NOT my country but I can relate at some level. In Pakistan, we have realized that we do have a problem internally and we are making efforts with our limited resources to fight it. Indians too have to realise that they have an internal problem. Indians have plenty of disenfrenchised minorities who have reservations that they should address.
All you fellow muslims, there is no point in convincing these gullible people that we are not terrorists and peace loving people. They have been brain washed by their governments to the point of no return. The Mumbai massacre was planned by the Indians themselves. The two terrorists who have been identified are named Amar Singh and Heera Lal. These guys want war. They want an escalation on the border so that Pakistan removes its troops from the western border and gives the Americans free access to the tribal areas. War is being imposed upon us, even though we are peace loving people and do not want war. Now that it is inevitable, lets prepare for it and show the Indians what we are made of. This life has been given by God to us and we are ready to lay it down in His name so that His governance is established in the land. Get ready for Shahadat.
guys ….its a time for emotions to run wild …tragic as it is but there are some questions that need answers from cooler heads:
1. what benefit would pakistan get out of this ?dont they have enough problems already ?Wwhy would they launch it on the day their Foreign Minister was on an official visit to New Delhi . Would they not wait for him to be back ?
2. how can there be only 10 terrorists holding out for this long? Could there be some inside help ?
3. if this was planned by the pakistan government why would such highly trained guys ( the caught terrorist according to the indian intelligence was educated upto 4th grade )leave such visible trails leading to pakistan ?
4. the earlier train bombing was also immidiately blamed on pakistan . But after investigations in india turns out that it was planned by serving and retired indian army guys . How come the guy who uncovered the indian connection – Head of the anti-terrorist organisation – was there in the first few minutes of the terrorists arrival and was the ist one to get shot by the terrorists ? Or did some one made sure that this would happen ?
5. some of the targets like the Leo[polo restaurant and the jewish house would only be known to people who live and know bombay very well. How would terrorists coming on a mission from a foreign country know the not so obvious targets so well? Reach so many different points in the chaotic bombay traffic within minutes of their arrival carrying tons of ammo on their backs ?
6. how could so much ammunition be carried in back packs by just 10 guys . Ammunition enough to keep the whole indian army occupied for 3 days and nights?
7. If the ammo was stored in the taj hotel from before how come the cleaners who clean the rooms every day never noticed so much ammo stored . Could they be blind !!!
8. How did so much ammo got thru the sceurity screening at the hotel entrance ?
9. How could such a meticolously planned attack requiring so much local resources be done and the intelligence agencies remaining clue less ? Or were they themselves helping out with this -after all there are elections taking place in a few days !!!
THINK !!!!!!!
Junaid Shah
It is becoming more clear that this attack originated within Pakistan. That does not mean that it was an official act of the government elected by the Pakistani people. It does not even mean that it was planned at the highest level by the ISI. However, the people in Pakistan who planned this attack and set it in motion need to be found and punished.
The alternative is the risk of war between nuclear armed India and nuclear armed Pakistan. The end result of such a war is likely to be a destroyed Pakistan and a severely damaged India. No rational person wants such a war. However, there seem to be an organized group of people in Pakistan who’s thinking is based on a different frame of reference.
At a minimum those people need to be removed from government power and in many cases they need to be hanged. Given the threat their actions have posed to the continued existence of the Pakistani state, these actions have to be taken swiftly and it is more important to catch the guilty than to spare the innocent who merely look guilty. A nuclear war is going to kill a lot more innocent people than an overzealous prosecutor. That is really the choice that the Pakistani people face. Either hunt down and hang the few dozen people who are guilty of setting in motion this slaughter of innocent people or choose to see millions of innocent people incinerated in a war that Pakistan ultimately loses.
The correct path, both from a moral and a practical standpoint, seems obvious to me but the people of Pakistan will have to make that choice and live with the consequences.
Quamar Rasheed
1. The nation of Pakistan gets no benefit from this. However there are likely to be some people who hope to benefit from the troubles caused by these attacks. For example, someone in Pakistan may be hoping to prevent the President from signing a peace deal with India permanently dividing Kashmir and renouncing Pakistani claims to the Indian portion. There may be some group that is hoping that by causing tensions with India, the Pakistani army will have to stop going after al Qaeda and Taliban in the NWFP. There may be someone hoping to precipitate a crisis that will cause the government of Pakistan to fall so that a different faction can take over. It may be some people in the ISI who are targeted to be purged from that organization in a recent announcement by the President of Pakistan. It may be some group who are hoping to destroy Pakistan so that they can steal Pakistan’s nuclear weapons in the chaos that follows.
2. I have read that there were something like 30 attackers, but they were able to hold out as long as they did because the Indian police and army were trying to spare the lives of the hostages. If the Indian police and army were not worried about killing innocent civilians, they would have killed all the attackers within a few hours on the first day.
3. The people who planned this attack may be trying to embarrass the government of Pakistan for reasons that I described in (1) or they may have other reasons for leaving a trail that points back so obviously to Pakistan.
4. There may, of course, be other explanations. It seems to me very unlikely that the President and the elected government had anything to do with this attack. It also seems unlikely that the government of India attacked its own people. The most likely explanation is that somebody hopes to benefit from trouble between Pakistan and India.
5. This attack was obviously planned long in advance by an organization with plenty of resources and experience at surveillance. People in ISI fit that description. So does al Qaeda, for that matter. This was not just a bunch of crazy young men who decided on their own to kill some people.
6. and 7. Obviously this operation had plenty of support and planning. Ammunition could have been brought in over weeks or months and kept in rented apartments or warehouses until a day before the attacks when it could have been brought into the hotels in suitcases, by conspirators working in the hotels or by persons disguised as workmen doing repairs at the hotel. Put your mind to it and you can probably think of a half dozen ways to smuggle ammunition from somewhere else in Mumbai into a hotel room. If somebody puts out a “Do Not Disturb” sign on their door, do the maids come in anyway?
8. How much security is there? Do they search everybody’s suitcase when they check in to the hotel? Do they check the tool box of every carpenter and plumber? Do they search all the food and laundry that is brought into the hotel?
9. In an open society like India, there is a lot of activity that is not watched by the intelligence services. Are you suggesting that every Muslim in India should be fitted with a GPS transmitter so that the intelligence services can keep track of them every minute of the day? I don’t think that is going to happen.
I would like to hear more about what groups in India you think might benefit from these attacks. Is there any party that you think will do better in an election as a result of these killings? As I have said, I think that the most likely suspects are Pakistanis who are hoping to damage the government of Pakistan for reasons related to Pakistani politics. The Indians and others who were killed are just bit players in what is essentially a Pakistani political drama. However, as new facts come to light I might have to change my opinion.
Gilligan:
you ask what groups in India might benefit from these attacks? . I think thats rather a naive question ……kashmiris in india fighting for close to 60 years against state sponsored terrorism may have a few scores to settle ? a kashmiri who had his father tortured and killed by the indian army or a kashmiri whose sisters may have been raped by the indian army or could it be the christians who have been living in fear of being burnt alive !!! need more ?
TO: All
RE: These Muslim Terrorist Supporters, Apologists, and Disinformationalists
It’s interesting that despite all these attacks on the Indians by the Muslims, we don’t hear about many such attacks by Indians in Pakistan.
Indeed, it is fascinating that the Muslims seem to kill more of each other in Pakistan than the Indians do there.
So, if we look at who is waging war on whom, it appears more like the Pakistanis are waging war on the Indians on their turf. It’s called ‘offensive’ war. And whether the Pakistani government supports it directly or by turning a blind eye to it, it is the responsibility of the Pakistani people to stop it first….if they have a mind to.
And if they don’t have a mind to stop it…..then let the Indians and the rest of the free world stop it for them. Because, as I’ve stated often enough in this venue….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Among other evils which being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised. -- Niccolo Machiavelli]
P.S. One may have weapons, but if they refuse to use them, it’s the same as being ‘unarmed’ amongst a camp of enemies.
Well i have been reading the discussion for a while and i though i should put forward my views as well .
Junaid – you Talk of muslims being discriminated around the world and the international media making a monster of all muslims …agreed ..it is true and they are write on doing so ..Lemme give you an example : I was at heathrow and there was a muslim (With a beard ) and he was questioned for hours before he was let go and i am pretty sure he was not a terrorist . This Happens and i guess all of us accept it . But have you ever thought why ? Not every muslim is a terrorist ..we all agree to it ..but then why is every terrorist a muslim ? talk about 9/11 , talk about london bombings …talk about spain …its happening all over the world …you still dont get it ….why are muslims targeted ? We as non muslims understand that there are extremists and moderates in every religion . But with so many instaces around the world (and all muslims ) how do you expect us to differentiate between a moderate muslim and an extremist?
QR – You talk about what is happening in Kashmir ..have you ever been to kashmir ??? I have been to kashmir …and guess what …its not the indian army which is raping kashmiri women and killing innocent people ..its the so called militant outfits like Let and Jaish and serveral small time “self proclaimed ” terrorist outfits . You know what they do , they are nothing more than petty criminals who use the kashmiri people for extorsion , food , women and trust me the kashmiri’s are fed up of it . You talk of a war that has been going on in kashmir for the last 60 years for the freedom of kashmir i guess you need to get your facts clear . Do you know the Voter turnout in the recent elections that have been going on in the state of J & K ??? which is a so called Indian Election? if the kashmiri’s are so fed up of the so called “atrocities” of indian army and the indian government , why do they have to vote ?
You wanna know the truth about kashmir ..here it is . You paki’s have been running a proxy war against indian by funding these so called criminals , who term themselves as jihadis . The only reson why pakistan wants to do this is because india helped bangaldesh (which was called East Pakistan ) become a seperate country and pakistani’s have not been able to digest it . This is what the kashmir issue is all about .
To All Muslims :- First of all i want to tell all of you that i have nothing against islam as a religion , i am against fanatasism . Be it in any religion . I want to ask all of you a few questions , and i dont want you to reply just because you have to , but i want you to take a deep breath and ponder :
1. How Many Islamic countries are there in the world that are peaceful and progressive . Let me help you with that : Iran , iraq , afganistan , somalia , chechyna , pakistan , palestine ????? want more ……
(me Included ..if i were in pakistan )
2. Islam talks about women in Purdah . But do you know the highest rate of incest and homosexuality is in muslims ? and then you have the audacity of calling other religions promiscuios ?
3. The very Founder of the so called “Islamic State of Pakistan ” was a man known as Jinnah . Do you know that Jinnah was a muslim who ate pork and drank wine and had never touched the Koran (leave alone his affairs ) ? Read a Book called as “Freedom at midnight” by larry Collins and John Lapiere. And then you talk about the western culture and critisize the westners ?
4. Do you know that when these so called jihadis are brain washed they are told that there are 106 virgins waiting for them in heaven ? You dont let them see any on earth …so anyone would die for it
well i guess the world if fed up of this islamic terrorism and someday (which is not far ) . The world will retaliate , and god willing when that happens all the so called stolen or chinese nukes that pakistan boasts of …nothing will save you .
I would like to end it by quoting a text messange that i got in the morning by a friend who is in the Indian Army . “Forgiving pakistanis should be left to god . But Fixing their appointment with god is entirely our responsibility ” Indian Army
Junaid Shah,
Most Muslims are not terrorists — we know that. But most terrorists Are Muslims — and we know that too. Deal with it.
And Muslim terrorists are busily converting Islam into The Religion of Murder — in the eyes of the rest of the world.
And Muslim morons (like you) whine like little girls whenever anyone dares to point this out.
You won’t face your own problems. So it’s no surprise that Muslim-majority countries are poor, ignorant, backward, and run by dictators.
GILLIGAN: You are right to a great extent. Pakistan has been a victim and on a hitlist of terror outfit eversince it decided to side with the US and gave them support on their operations in Afghanistan. You talk about Pakistan doing something to stop these outfits. That is the consenses in Pakistan. Everyone wants this nightmare for us to be over except the ones that are doing it. However, Pakistan gov’t has feabily pointed out that there is outside support for terrorists in Pakistan from sources such as RAW and some from other countries. I’ll tell you an interesting story that I heard from a Pak Military man serving on border with Afghanistan: Baitullah Mehsud, one of the most dreaded terrorist leader, was identified by one of the Pakistani informants and while he was on a move in Afghanistan. Pakistani military informed Americans to send a drone to wipe out this much wanted target … NO RESPONSE from Americans. This happened on atleast 4 occassions. This was dicussed in Pakistani parliament and it dawned upon the Pakistanis that Baitullah’s funding was coming from India. Why? because Baitullah has been destabilizing an entire province and he has about 30,000 active supporters that he is paying healthy salaries to. Indian gov’t view that keeping Pakistan an unstable country is what works for them, can potentially bite them on their behinds as well but it will for sure bring a lot of misery to average Joe Schmoe Pakistani on the street and proves their 60 yr held view that “creation of Pakistan was a mistake” and thus prove to domestic Muslim population that they are better off being with India. If you have never heard this view before, I know, you might even be skeptical, but just know that if you ever come and spend some time in Pakistan and talk to people dealing with Pakistan’s internal problems at the NWFP and Balochistan provices, they will show you evidence of India’s involvement and why not, they are our sworn enemies and have lots more resources than us.
OH, and one more instance worth mentioning, Pakistan army caught some jihadi promoting mullahs in the restive province of Balochistan. Upon their interrogation, it was revealed that they were NOT even proper muslims and they were not even circumcised (sounds funny but that is one of the things all muslims do). These things are common knowledge in Pakistan but our government, in the hope of having better relations with India, does vent air to these news and puts a cap on the media from promoting these news.
Trust me, an average Pakistani guy living in any city such as Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi or any other city of Pakistan is dreaming of the same things such as latest mobile phones, cars, gadgets, good jobs and good life as any other people in the rest of the world.
TO: Junaid Shah
RE: Talk Is Cheap
Over the last 58 years or so, I’ve learned that a lot of people say a lot of things that they cannot prove. Case in point, look at all the outrageous allegations made by some people amongst US during the course of the last General Election cycle. Especially about Governor Palin.
So, as I asked those characters about their allegations, I’ll ask you about this….
….got a good source of information that will corroborate your statement? Preferably a URL from some good and honest new source?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[A lack of evidence is evidence of lying.]
These attacks and the future attacks are solid proof that ….”An addition of Muslims to a Nation is a subtraction in Civilization.”
I am tired of this “Moderate Muslim” disclaimer that always emerges when Muslims show their true barbaric nature by killing innocents , bombing their own Mosques and beheading captures in the name of Islam,the religion of hate and barbarism. They (Muslims) contribute nothing positive to the Planet. The only way they can achieve recognition is through violence. What does this say to the rest of the civilized world ?
American Christian Infidel
Michael Canzano
We Pakistanis are suffering the brunt of Indian Hindu BJP brand terrorism for the last so many years. In fact the 90% Dalit and lower class Hindus are also suffering in the hands of the 10% Brahman BJP. We are the victims here. The average Indian Brahman is appearing on the Indian media right now and is talking of annihilating Pakistan and muslims from the face of this earth. These Brahmans are themselves invaders of India in the first place. When your troops cross the border, remember, 90% of lower class Hindus will rise up and welcome Pakistani troops which are going to liberate them. The vain Brahmans are too full of themselves to realize the ground realities.
TO:Junaid:
While responding to my comments ( Post 50 ), you say that if India has address of Dawood, they should provide it to Pakistan. India has several times provided Pakistan with copies of his Pakistani Passports to Pakistani’s that provide full details. You very conveniently forgot to address my other questions regarding terrorists camps in POK, Pakistan being responsible for Kargil, Hijackers of Indian Airlines planes appearing and holding rallies in Pakistan. Pakistan Authorities did not need theie home addresses at that time, they were right there in Pakistan for every one to see, why they were not arrested??
Junaid, you are a great example of the Muslim World having it’s head in the sand. That is why nothing changes in the Islamic World except few things that change only to get ever worse than before.
Remember my muslim brothers, unless you fully integrate into their religion of lust and desires, these Christian, Jews and Hindus are not going to stop planning and plotting against you in trying to exterminate you from the face of this Earth. Say to the unbeleivers, (disbelievers in God, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in the day of Resurrection and in Al-Qadar.) I worship not that which you worship. Nor will you worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. Nor will you worship that which I worship. To you be your religion, and to me my religion.
Junaid Shah
I don’t have any specific information about Baitullah Mehsud in Afghanistan and the failure of the US to kill him with missiles. All that I can say is that from my military experience a long time ago, shit happens. Perhaps the information was received too late and Baitullah Mehsud had already moved from the location where he had been by the time a decision was made and the aircraft was launched. Perhaps he had surrounded himself with too many women and children so that the US would not blow him up knowing that many innocents would die. Perhaps somebody in the chain of command just screwed up. That happens in any organization composed of human beings.
One thing that I am pretty sure of is that Baitullah Mehsud gets his money from drug gangs rather than Indian intelligence. I don’t think that the Indian intelligence services have enough money to outbid those drug gangs.
Over the years, I think that it has been the policy of India to try to keep Pakistan weak and disorganized just like it has been the policy of Pakistan to try to keep Afghanistan weak and disorganized.
With globalization, nuclear weapons in both India and Pakistan and the use of the Afghanistan failed state as a base to attack the United States, I don’t think that those beggar thy neighbor policies can work any more. Instead, I think that all countries in the area would be better off if they acted in ways that will benefit the whole area. For example, the steel mill in Karachi should produce large quantities of railroad rail and reinforcing rod. The reinforcing rod should be used to make railroad ties. The railroad rails and ties should be used to extend the railroad from the Khyber Pass to Jalalabad and from Baluchistan to Kandahar. All that construction activity in Afghanistan will employ people in Pakistan. When the railroad lines extend all the way to Kabul, it will increase trade making both Pakistan and Afghanistan more prosperous. If the railroads can be connected all the way through to connect to the railroad in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, Pakistani businesses will be able to sell their products in all of those places and the prosperity of the whole area will improve. If India wants to participate in this increased prosperity, it will have to maintain good relations with Pakistan so that trains carrying loads to and from India can pass through Pakistan without interference. Once this west Asian trade is established, any Indian politician who wants to win a few votes by threatening Pakistan will have to explain to the workers at an idled factory why the trains carrying that factory’s goods to Kazhakstan were stopped at the Pakistan border.
Junaid Shah, at least I read “The Force of Reason” and “The Rage and the Pride” by Orianna Fallaci. I put more confidence in her writings, than the
justifications of those she called, “The Sons of Allah”.
As long as the geography of the Arabian Peninsula is the most important variable when it comes to being Muslim, it will continue to miss the boat in
developing culturally. For Irish Missionaries played a role in preserving ancient culture.
TO: Faisal
RE: Okay….
…show US credible reports that substantiate your claim.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[A lack of supporting evidence, is evidence of lying. -- CBPelto]
TO: All
RE: Faisal & Disinformation
Were talking SERIOUS projection here, i.e., ‘blood lust’ and ‘sexual desires’.
It’s what we of the military persuasion with intelligence background would call ‘key indicators’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[If you want to know what the other guy wants, just listen to him from a different perspective. -- CBPelto]
QR
The reasons you have listed that somebody in India might benefit from this attack all seem to have the common theme of short sighted revenge. While that might make people who feel that they have been wronged feel better, I don’t see how it actually benefits them in the way that, for example, drug smugglers or al Qaeda operating in the NWFP might hope that increasing tension between India and Pakistan might cause military operations in the NWFP to be cut back.
Do you have any examples of Indian politicians who might be more likely to be elected if relations between India and Pakistan get worse? Are there any people in India who are likely to benefit financially from these attacks?
Hey this goes to all those pakistani friends,
evidences of Pakistani ‘element’ will be clear in a day or two to Pak Gov when the ISI rep is in India( its already clear , let the ISI director visit India).
I want to ask all those who support this act of terror and claim that they are the saviors of islam what are doing to help all those innocent people ( mostly muslims) getting killed in terror with in India. Stop these mind less act, you guys are disgrace to Islam as well as to human race. Grow up guys…………….
Gilligan:
Do you have any examples of Indian politicians who might be more likely to be elected if relations between India and Pakistan get worse? Are there any people in India who are likely to benefit financially from these attacks?
let me jog your memory . Gujarat riots in India where 2000 muslims wer killed or burnt alive under the active protection of the state apparatus for the sake of the upcoming elections : destruction of Babri Mosque that brought BJP into power for the ist time . Need More ?
Proud Indian:
Islam talks about women in Purdah . But do you know the highest rate of incest and homosexuality is in muslims ? and then you have the audacity of calling other religions promiscuios ?
hey hey…. where did you get these facts from. I am sure the Catholic priests and the Greeks will be most disturbed by your claim !!!!!!!!
Almost all of your blog cinsists of totally unsubstantiated claims . SORRY CANNOT TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY!!!!!
I think all the Pakistani people need to be literated first that is the basic need for these poor people at this time. They dont even know there is a whole world out there. Still all that zamindars and all are ruling them handling them a cattles. Woman have no respect they are treated as animals. These people are still living in stoneage.
Please somebody from your country revive them given them a vision.
God help these poor people.
The roots of terrorism lies in somewhere else. i want to ask few questions, i hope somebody will answer.
1. muslims want their childern to be educated with religious teaching that’s why they send them to madrasa. assume out of 100 madarsa 1 madrasa have extremist elements so you can imagine children of that madrsa will be taught extremist view and they will be taught to hate so called “non-believers”.that’s where the foundation of terror lies. why cant muslims teach their children religious teaching of Islam at their home? and for other education send them to school? what prevents muslisms to do so?
2. Muslim community lacks a substantial number of middle class(at least in india),why?.rich are very rich poor are really very poor. this gap also works for radicals and extremists.
3.is teaching of islam’s are so complicated that that people put aside their rationalizing capability and believe in whatever the preacher is saying. i have seen movie “khuda ke liye” which depicts a story of british-pak citizen. i Find it very difficult to believe but i saw real link
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=95FDF7AD-E8E4-46B4-B4B4-A72038A06983
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0503/175.html
it really pushed me to think that why a well educated person would do that?. what the hell is going on in name of Islam?.
Hi,
For all those who keep asking about indian atrocities in Kashmir and all…why don’t you watch your own house first? You are killing Baluchis just because they are asking for their rights?? What have you done so far for Pak Occupied Kashmir??? The muslims who went to Pakistan from india during partition are still treated as Mujahirs and are being targetted and killed? What about killing of chiritians in Pakistan just in the name of blasphemy..and of course they can’t even fight a legal war.
To Junnaid,QR,Faisal..
You talk about Kashmiris and all..but what pakistan has done for PoK so far? The kashmiris in Kashmir are much better off than most kashmiris in PoK. The pakistani govt. does not have anything to do with Kashmiri people. All they want is the water reources of Kashmir. They know if India started to contol the water flow of Kashmir using dams , all fertile land in pakistan would become barren.
QR
Is it your contention that the killings in Mumbai were orchestrated by the BJP?
Well, the Congress party is in charge now. If the BJP is responsible, I would expect that the Indian government will discover those links pretty quickly. After all, if the Congress Party could prove that BJP killed all those people it would probably destroy any chances for BJP to ever win another election.
Junaid,,
You talking about being stronger than hindus…you have some balls to say that despite being defeated not once..twice but thrice in war. And when you could not win in face to face..your government and ISI started to play proxy war game. Is that what you call bravery? Let me tell you one thing and every one who thinks you are stronger than hindus or Indians….we don’t want war with pakistan not because we are afraid of you but we do not want to stop are economic growth by engaging in a war. You guys have nothing to loose. Pakistan is a doomed country already and had it not been IMF giving billion to you in aid…you probably would be bankrupt in 3 months. We have a bigger threat in our region and that is china.By engagin in war with pakistan..india would be behind china by many years and we can’t afford that.You guys survived all these yeras because of US and now you loath US like anything. Had it not been US giving you all political, financial and military support..you guys would have ended up just like Afghanistan in regime of Taliban.
To Faisal..
Well your so called 30 jehadis…seem to be very brave just like you. Killing un armed people..shooting at their will. And we indians know about how brave your army is after your army surrendered in 1971 and indian army spared their sorry asses. Man !!! you have lost 3 direct wars. Don’t forget the Kargil..your government disowned its own soldiers and who burried them?? Indians. If your government or ISI had a single ounce of manhood or bravery in them..they would engage india in direct war..and not sending some rabbied dogs to bomb people.
TO: Raj, et al.
RE: Partial Answer
Why is it that the ‘rank and file’ believers in Islam are so easily lead by their imams and mullahs?
Probably because Islam today, as practiced in the Middle East and South-Central Asia, is akin to the way the Roman Catholic church of the Middle Ages practiced religion. The priest of that time were the ones who lead the ‘rank and file’ of Christianity around by their ears, because they were the ones who told the ‘rank and file’ what was in their holy book. And what it all meant to them.
Western literacy and the invention of the printing press allowed intelligent people in the ‘rank and file’ to read what was in that Old Book for themselves. Education allowed them to thing rationally for themselves. Hence the Wars of the Reformation and what Christianity is today….something far better than it was in the Middle Ages.
I find it interesting that the time frames of these religions, from inception to age of imams, mullahs and priests dictating to the ‘rank and file’, seems to be similar. Roughly 1200 years from the birth of Christ to the ‘Middle Ages’ and the height of priestly power. Roughly 1200 years from the birth of Muhammoud to now.
Is there a pattern? Perhaps. After all, the Roman Catholic church REALLY got into atrocities to keep the ‘rank and file’ in line with doctrine around them. And we see imams and mullahs preaching similar misconduct today.
Then there is the Crusades of the Middle Ages. And what are we witnessing today from Islam?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[History doesn't repeat itself. It has a speech impediment. It stutters.]
TO: Brijesh
RE: Why?
Because we asked for evidence of the people claiming there was such activity.
Something to do with a desire for factual reports. If you don’t understand that, then stop wasting our time.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.]
Chuck..
well no one ever aksed you guys about atrocities on blacks or red indians so wonder why a desire for the facts about others???
How to Beat The Indian Politician
Section 49-O of the Constitution:
(A Repetition worth a read)
Did you know that there is a system in our Constitution, as per the 1969 Act, in Section “49-O” that a person can go to the polling booth, confirm his identity, get his finger marked and convey to the presiding election officer that he doesn’t want to vote anyone!
Yes such a feature is available, but obviously our seemingly notorious leaders have never disclosed it. This is called “49-O”.
Why should you go and say “I VOTE FOR NOBODY”… because, in a ward, if a candidate wins, say by 123 votes, and that particular ward has received “49-O” votes more than 123, then that polling will be cancelled and will have to be re-polled. Not only that, but the candidature of the contestants will be removed and they cannot contest the re-polling, since people had already expressed their decision on them. This would bring fear into parties and hence look for genuine candidates for their parties for election. This would change the way of our whole political system… it is seemingly surprising why the Election Commission has not revealed such a feature to the public….
Please spread this news to as many as you know… Seems to be a wonderful weapon against corrupt parties in India… show your power, expressing your desire not to vote for anybody, is even more powerful than voting… so don’t miss your chance. So either vote, or vote not to vote (vote 49-O) and pass this info on…
“Please forward this mail to as many as possible, so that we, the people of India , can really use this power to save our nation”. Use your voting right for a better INDIA
TO: Chuck Pelto
RE: Erroneous Historical Analogy
Islam already had it’s Reformation. Taqi ibn Taymiyyah was its Martin Luther and Islam’s John Calvin was Mohammad ibn Abd al Wahhab. Just like Calvin in Zurich, Wahhab’s followers are inclined to cut the heads off of anybody with whom they have religious disagreements. Our problem is not really with Islam as it is practiced by millions of people but rather with these modern day Islamic “Calvinists” and their mission to purify all the world to comply with their religious vision. If you go by body count, the Wahabi Islamic “Protestants” have killed a lot more Muslims than Christians in their pursuit of religious purity.
What is actually going to result in a more peaceful world will be when enough followers of traditional Islam have had enough of the trouble brought on by the wild eyed heretics and stage a Counter Reformation.
Regards,
Gilligan
TO: Brijesh
RE: Try….
…not to be overly stupid.
Regarding the enslavement of the negroes, we shed more blood in five years of our Civil War than you can imagine. We killed 600,000 of our own to expiate that sin.
Regarding the Indian Wars, that was open warfare and each side committed atrocities. But this was before we signed the Geneva Conventions on the Conduct of Land Warfare.
So….
….what’s the stupid point you’re trying to make here?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Stupid, adj, Ignorant and proud of it.]
P.S. Where are the documented facts about the atrocities committed by Indians against Muslims in Kashmir?
Still waiting……..and waiting…..
…..but all you people do is obfuscate and evade.
Wouldn’t it be better to provide the evidence. At least that way you wouldn’t look like an outright liar.
TO: All
RE: Additional Indicators
I’m wondering if any of the Pakistanis here can tell us which of their imams have denounced this mass murder.
Have any? If so, which ones and in which mosques?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.....]
Most of you have a very naive and misguided understanding of Islam. First of all, no Imam can condone any kind of terrorist/suicide attack on innocent civilians. The reason being, it is totally against the principles of Islam to do any such thing. No Imam can remain an Imam if he even gives an iota of support to any such ideas. In fact, so many Imams have given their religious edicts against such attacks on civilians. In fact, if a muslim saves the life of any human being when such an attack is taking place, and the muslim dies in the process, he will be given a special place in heaven. To save one life is like saving the whole of humanity. To take one innocent life is like taking the life of the whole of humanity.
In fact, the punishment for taking an innocent life in the after-life, according to Islamic beliefs is being put in the lowest dungeons of hell-fire for eternity.
What is happening in todays world is not something that muslims are planning. This is all a materialistic war which has been given the name of a religous war. It is a war to control the resources of the world. Whoever is playing it and planning it has very little regard for human life and these people certainly dont believe in a God.
Keep in mind that Islam is, inherently, both a religion and a form of government. That extends the issues considerably, regardless of which area you are thinking about.
TO: Faisal
RE: Naive? Moi?
Hardly. My brother-in-law is a Persian.
As for your total failure to answer my question. The question was which Imam’s have CONDEMNED the mass murder?
You tried to twist it around to say none could condone it.
So, by your answer, NONE have condemned the mass murder. And you’re obfuscation is duly noted as a clever lie.
You stand convicted….and, along with you all your ‘brethren’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
P.S. I do recall hearing of imams calling for mass murder of Americans over the past few years. So you are doubly convicted as a liar.
TO: All
RE: Heh….
…this is cute.
“Innocent Life”. But to these Muslims, no infidel is ‘innocent’, so the murder is ‘religiously justified’. Something else I picked up from an imam some time back.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. That’s three-times the liar for Faisal.
Which Imam has called for the mass murder of Americans? Osama bin Laden is no Imam. Ayman Al-Zwahiri is no Imam. Al-Qaeda is no religious organisation.
By ‘Innocent Life’, I meant any human being of any religion. The only reason killing of a person is allowed in Islam is if that person has taken another life. In that case too, an allowance is made if the heirs of the murdered person forgive the murderer.
TO: Faisal
RE: Answer….
….MY question first. Which imams and/or mullahs have denounced the Mumbai mass murder? From which mosque? As I asked it first.
Your puny attempt to redirect the discussion fails.
RE: The ‘Innocent Life’
Are you an imam or mullah who can speak definitively for Islam?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Prevaricator, n., A liar in the larval state.]
TO: Faisal
RE: Liar
Muslims kill homosexuals and unchaste, or merely suspected as being unchaste, women ALL THE BLOOD TIME.
In this country, several months ago, a devote Muslim murdered his two daughters in the backseat of his taxi cab for being too ‘Western’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Here’s something I’d like you to answer about your claim that The only reason killing of a person is allowed in Islam is if that person has taken another life.
Is it not written….
‘Who so slays a soul not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land, it should be as if he had slain mankind altogether.’(5:32)
So. Please tell us what is meant by ‘for corruption done in the land’, as it obviously means something other than ‘slaying’ some soul. And it obviously shows the lie in your previous statement that only when someone kills someone is their life forfeit.
To Chuk..
The point i was trying to make was who ever talks about atrocities by army in Kashmir, needs to check their own deeds first. The army started it operation when kashmiri terrorists were killing hindus in kashmir and chased them away from their home for centuries. No one talks about their plight..not even our politicians who are so very busy in building their muslim vote bank. You may wish to check these
TO: Brijesh
RE: And….
…the point I have MADE is that you have no evidence to back up your claims. Therefore, to the reasonably prudent individual, you are either ignorant, misinformed or a liar.
Which is it?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Please provide the verifiable evidence supporting your claim and I’ll accept your report. Otherwise, my observation (above) stands.
Inspite of blaming the neighouring
country for all this act of terrorism,
all the successive Governments to
be blamed for not stoping infilteration
from pakistan to India.If we keep our houses
unlocked anti-social elements likely to
enter.We have failed in all fronts
when the security of country as well
as its citizens is concerned.
There are misdeeds from both the sides.
Forgetting the past ,if the rulers of
both the countries combat terrorism
combinely, both will be powerful
nations.Politicians of both the countries
are to be blamed,because they think the
election first and countr later
To Chuck(le)
First of all, every Imam who has proper qualification has condemned the Mumbai attacks. What you can do is ask them directly through their websites. In fact, an Imam of very high credentials was murdered last year by terrorists in the North of Pakistan, just because he publicly said that people who die in suicide terrorist attacks are headed straight for hell.
Second I am a student of Islam. I am studying in a madrassah even though I have already graduated from University eighteen yrs ago.
Third, you have quoted a line from our religous book out of context. You have just taken one line and not mentioned the relevant subject as is common amongst oriental writers of Islam. You have quoted from a passage which is dicussing how Cane murdered Abel. After relating the events, in line 32, our religous book says “Because of that, We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land-it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them our messengers with clear evidences, signs and proofs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits in the land.”
Tafsir Ibn Kasir says about “Warning to those who commit mischief”
” The Jews of Al-Madinah, such as Banu Qurayzah, An-Nadir and Qaynuqa, used to fight along with either Khazraj or Aws, when war would erupt between during the time of Jahliyyah. When these wars would end, the Jews would ransom those who were captured and pay the blood money for those who were killed.”
Faisal -
Egyptian Imam Mahmoud Al-Masri
Egyptian Cleric Muhammad Sharaf Al-Din
Imam Anwar Al Awalki (I don’t know his nation of orign)
Well, that took all of ten minutes to find. Now, add to that the Imams ruling Iran who regulary call for the complete destruction of the US, Europe, and naturally, all Jews anywhere, and you you easily exceed the “zero” you say have called for mass murder. If you like, I could spend a few hours and fill in the entire alloted space for these comments with names, but hey, you knew that.
have a nice day
TO: Faisal
RE: Yeah….
…Right….
Please provide the verses that change the face-value meaning of those I cited to you.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. More tomorrow, as I’ve a meeting I need attend in a bit and I must prepare for it.
And despite the probability that this thread will drift off the ‘face’ of PJM by tomorrow, I’ve book-marked it so that I can return here and provide you and others the thoughts that raced through my mind as I read your latest….
P.P.S. STILL….
…waiting for your listing of the imams and mullahs who have denounced the Mumbai mass murder.
Since you have not provided it, the evidence is blatantly obvious that NONE of the heads of Islam have denounced it from their mosque.
And accordingly, you stand condemned….
Correction….’convicted’….
….I’ll allow God to do the final judgement. It is His authority to deal with liars and murderers.
Rashputin
Imam Mahmoud Al-Masri- I dont know much about him but I have not come across any article in which he has condoned terrorism.
Imam Muhammed Sharaf Al-din- Same here, not much information. However, where has he condoned terrorism.
Imam Awlaki- He is a famous renowned scholar of Islam. He has never ever said that terrorism is allowed against civilian. By the way, he is from Yemen. If you go to the link below, you can read his interview, which he gave right after 911, in which he said
“First of all, we stated our position clearly, and I even feel that it’s unfortunate that we have to state this position because no religion would condone this, so it should be common knowledge. But we were in a position where we had to say that Islam does not approve of this. There is no way that the people who did this could be Muslim, and if they claim to be Muslim, then they have perverted their religion.
We encourage people to participate in blood drives, we encourage them to donate, and then we encourage the community to reach out.”
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0927_imampart1.html
If the Muslims are against killing of innocents by the terrorists who claim they are acting on behalf of the Mulsims, why doen’t the Muslim community issue a fatwa against the terrorists.
by not issuing a fatwa, the Mulims around the World are supporting the terrorists. if the Muslims believe in what they say, let them issue fatwas against all terrorists.
The Ulama-e-Karam (Religious Scholars) of Pakistan have jointly issued a fatwa against all forms of terrorism against civilians. They have condemned such attacks categorically. Plus they have done it publicly, and all television channels and newspapers in Pakistan have covered their fatwa. Major News Networks of the west dont pick up such news because maybe they think it is not news worthy to report such events.
Another very senior Religous Scholar was shot dead in the Northern city of Peshawer, Pakistan, when he issued a similiar fatwa. This Reigous Scholar held alot of influence in the tribal areas. However, he was murdered by some power which does not want too see the war of terror loosing steam.
Junaid Shah and other Muslims unfortunately follow a code that has not changed since founding of their despicable religion. They are activists and violent when in minority hellbent on converting others by force and when they become a majority in a society, they are absolutely intolerant of anything un-Islamic. A Muslim will lie, steal and stab any non believer to further Islam, as they are permitted to do so under Islamic code.
How do I know this, I am someone who has seen these bozos in action in India and I am someone who lost a set of Grandparents to the terrorist Islamists.
Ringo:
“…founding of their despicable religion.”
My sympathies for you Ringo.
Its not easy to loose a loved one.
But dont blame the religion. There are lots and lots of murders happening by extremist carrying Hindu Logo. Does that mean that Hinduism teaches voilence? Rashtriya S Sang to VHP and Bajrang Dal.. im sure you will not agree principally with their stand point. Do you support those Hindus who attacked Pentecostal Church in same Mumbai in mid November accusing bishop for converting Hindus into christians?? Do you support Hindu activist who burnt and raped christian nuns in Orisa, murdered christians inthe name of religion? Mionist accepted the blame of killing some hindus, but still hindu extremist killed 50+, burnt 4500+ homes, 100 churches, atleast 20 convents. Govt was doin nothin, Media was giving lil attention..there were reports of Hundu extremist paying money/alcohol to those who will kill a christian ($250 for pastor) ..But does that means HINDU religion teaches to KILL, RAPE , BURN those who try to spread christianity/religion?
If you were brother of the nun raped, father of the 21yr old girl burnt alive in church, or ur self a breadearner beaten to death.. you would go thru more voilent thoughts then you are going thru now.
Just couple of weeks back, Shiv sena group was roamin in Mumbai streets and threatening all to be aware of consiquences if any one used name Bombay. There is more voilence and voilent approaches around you then to but all blame on any other Religion. I am not denying that the attackers were muslims.. may be they were.. may be not. May be they were disgrunted christians taking revenge.. may be shiv sena activist giving actions to their threats.. or even may be muslims.. but that surely does not mean ISLAM preaches that..
“Islam is the best religion with worst followers”
To Chuck:
1- Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman
2- Maulana Tanvir ul Haq Tanvi
3- Maulana Ghafoor ul islam
..
…
….
TL
["It is wrong, everywhere and for every one, to believe anything on insufficient evidence".]
TO: Talmur
RE: The Naming of Names
I’ll see if I can substantiate your names and places and statements of condemnation of the Mumbai mass murder.
If you’ve got urls to their web-pages where they make such statements, I’d appreciate seeing those. I’ll see if I can persuade the people at MEMRI to translate them, as I’m certain they’d think it newsworthy.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. If these names and places are made-up…….three guesses. First two don’t count…..
TO: Faisal, et al.
RE: A Fisking
This looked like an interesting place to apply a good fisking. Therefore, here goes….
RE: First Thinks First, Every Imam?
Well. If every imam has done so, one would think that you could easily name them and the mosque from which they ‘preach’. But for some strange reason you haven’t.
Why is that?
Great. Show me the urls to their web-sites.
I’d REALLY appreciate you providing a link to the article that describes the murder, the investigation of it and any arrests made in connection with the alleged crime.
Might add some credibility to your report. And even to you.
I’m a student of Islam as well. Albeit I’m certainly not a believer in Islam. Nor of Mohammad as a messenger from God. Indeed. I account him as similar to the founder of Mormonism, someone to whom an ‘Angel of Light’ appeared and told him things. And he believed this ‘Angel of Light’ as being a messenger from God. However, he forgot that Lucifer, a.k.a., Satan, Shaitan, was once known as ‘The Light One’. And he can appear as ‘an Angel of Light’. But he is a deceiver and the Father of Lies. But these people were deluded by him, as Eve was in the Garden.
And look at the mess that resulted….
Continue your studies. I’ll continue mine. And maybe….just MAYBE….if we can communicate without one of us wanting to kill the other because of some matter relating to low-confidence in what we have learned all these years in our sojourn in this venue….
….one of us MIGHT be able to save the other.
[Note: From the Christian perspective, it’s referred to as snatching a brand from the fire, before it is totally consumed.]
Maybe. But I still require of you to explain why my reading of simple text is in error.
Yeah?
Who’s an ‘oriental writer’? And what makes them ‘oriental’? And why does that matter?
Educate me…..
Yes. Cane slew Abel. But, as I was interested in and asked of you, what the heck is this business of ”for corruption done in the land”?
It would appear, at face value, that ‘corruption in the land’ is different from killing someone.
Also, who decides what is ‘corruption’?
Let see….
….as I understand lineage. The Children of Israel are not the children of Ishmael. They are the children of Jacob, a.k.a. Israel, bin Issac.
Therefore, for some strange reason, I get the distinct impression that you are saying that this passage does not apply to Islam. That would indicate that Muslims are not judged by Allah as doing bad things such as the Mumbai mass murder.
First you cited that passage—out of context—claiming….
Then, when I cite you a more complete passage, that includes the business about “for corruption in the land”, you whine that I’m taking things ‘out of context’? You OUTRAGEOUS HYPOCRITE! You did it first.
Now, after I’ve asked you about the missing phrase, the one YOU left out, you say I don’t understand and I’m taking things out of context? In truth, I tell you, you are just obfuscating and evading after being caught doing what you describe in others.
You can’t get away with this sort of playing fast-and-loose with me. I judge debate tournaments and I see this sort of word-play trickery all too often.
And, to add sauce to your cooked goose, the way you couch it now, it looks to me like you are justifying the mass murder of non-Muslims. Why? Because you indicate that that passage only applies to the Hebrews, the Children of Israel.
RE: Warnings to ‘Those Who Commit Mischief’
And what does this have to do with the ‘price of tea in China’?
This is hardly what anyone with more than two synapses to rub together would call a ‘warning’.
And if this report is accurate, they why do all the Muslims who make the news all the time call for the extermination of the Children of Israel? Eh?
This is no warning. This is mere obfuscation on the part of someone who was ‘educated’ in a madrassah. And it is completely in line with what I’ve come to expect from an Islamist.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Again, you stand convicted. And by your own mouth, albeit indirectly…..
TO: Rashputin
RE: Faisal’s Claims….
….that none of these imams and/or mullahs he mentions have ever condoned terrorism is not the same as their ever having condemned it.
There is something of a clever nuance there. And I think it is an indicator.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. I wonder if Faisal is a Pakistani. I wonder because Faisal, as I know it, is more of a Saudi name. And that would be another intersting indicator….one way or another…..
Chuck,
First of all, if you want to get a true picture of Islam, you have to open the ventilators of your mind. I see alot of hate in your words. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, who we muslims believe was one of the mightiest messengers of God, try to tone down the hatred. I am not out to kill or even hate you for your words. I hope that we can have a discussion minus the hate.
You have said that “Saitan appeared to our prophet”
We believe that the Angel Gabriel (A.S.) appeared to our prophet (SAW).
During that time, the unbelievers made similiar claims. The Quran replies with the following :
“So. I swear by the setting of the stars.
And Verily that is indeed a great oath, if you but know.
That this is indeed an honorable recitation (the Noble Quran).
In a book well-guarded (with Allah in the heaven i.e. Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz).
Which none can touch but the purified (i.e the angels).
A revelation from the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists).” (56:75-80)
The story about the Religous Scholar who was shot dead can be found at the following link.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=10136
Chuck – I had a post here for you but must have messed it up somehow. I’ll write anew and post later.
Regards
Chuck:
Its unfortunate that this court requires only URLs as peices of evidence.. though i wont blame u as thats how u can gather info.
Ill try to gather video clips from the news websites if they have uploaded them .. or may be i can get my hand on urls .. at day end..(have busy day ahead)
..but if muslim scholar from Islamic Research forum in India can be of some assurance.. then you can follow the below mentioned link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeywC_9PJPM (u wont need MEMRI for this)
As for, from which mosques/places they belong to:
Mufti Muneeb: President – Tanzim ul Madaris Al Arbia Pakistan; President, Darul-Uloom Naeemia
Maulana Tanvir Ul Haq Thanvi: Prominent Muslim Scholar, Runs Central Mosque (Thanvi) at Jacob lines Karachi (In fact i heard him myself condemning during Friday sermon)
Prof Maulana Ghafoor ul Islam: He condemn on Pvt TV channel (GEO).
[A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on]
TO: Faisal
RE: Another Dose of Fisk?
If you insist….
RE: A True Picture of Islam
Well….
….I think we get a ‘true picture’ of Islam from two sources, these days.
[1] The actions of it’s followers as provided at Mumbai.
[2] The inactions of its other followers as provided by the lack of
I’m probably more ‘open-minded’ than you are. My brother-in-law is a Persian. The man my eldest daughter is going with is black.
So…..what’s your point?
Or are you merely ‘projecting’ your own mind-set on me?
I suspect the latter.
Again. More projection.
He is a LOT more than a mere messenger. He is the incarnate son of God.
I don’t hate. At least I don’t hate people, like you. Or even the mass murderers of Mumbai. It’s against my religious beliefs.
But I do hate what people like that do. And I get angry when I encounter the sort of blatant hypocrisy you demonstrated with that business I cited earlier about taking the Koran out of context. YOU did that. Not me. And you ‘projected’ such behavior on me when YOU were the one who did it.
Give it time. Give it time.
Islam is all about murder, as far as it is practiced by the ‘believers’ at Mumbai.
I hope so too. But I have my doubts about it from Islam’s end against people. But I have no problem with hating the behavior of people who lie to me. As you did. There’s something of a difference. Don’t you think?
Yes. What’s your point?
But let’s not mince words. I understand that he not only appeared to your ‘prophet’, but he actually deluded him.
Consider the import…..
Well…
…obviously I’m not alone in this understanding.
So what did the followers of Islam do with these ‘unbelievers’? Anything to do with and early departure from this venue? Something to do with swords?
And what does this prove? If anything? Nothing, as far as I can perceive.
So. What was your point here?
Thanks for that.
But I’m not surprised. As I stated on the web here before this particular murder, the violent followers of Islam will prevail against the so-called moderates, because they’ll murder anyone who speaks out against their version of Islam.
RE: Additional Thoughts
So. The first ‘miracle’ of Jesus the Christ was to turn water into wine.
And, as far as I have found, the first ‘miracle’ of Muhammoud was to knock-over, i.e., rob, a caravan.
I think there’s a significant difference in the ‘approach’ and ‘manner’ of the two religious beliefs systems.
The former promotes the Joy of Life. The latter promotes violence and murder.
As I mentioned to some believers in Christ of the Southern Baptist persuasion, while waiting for the light-rail to take us all to the Promise Keepers event….
“God loves fermentation as much as he loves leavening. And He created one tool, yeast , to do both.”
Hope this helps you get a grip…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The one how hates is the one who gets violent first.]
Chuck
Islam is not about hate. You have to get to the bottom of the war on terror to understand the hate and killings going on these days. For eg, lets take the case of the American Civil War. I was taught American History by a Professor in an American University. So, you can rule out any kind of biases. By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed taking that course, because I got a completely new perspective in looking at history. The North needed Industrial Labor, while the South was heavily dependant on slave labor to work in their huge farms. In short, this conflict of interest led to the US government banning slave labor and subsequently the civil war. So you can read all about the “noble gesture” of abolishing slave trade, but it all boils down to mere economics.
Likewise, you have to look at the real reasons of the war on terror. It is not a religous war, it is a war to control the worlds resources. Once, one party achieves full control, there will be another war to divide the spoils between the allies of the war on terror. Fortunately or unfortunately, the muslims are sitting on most of the world’s resources. So, they have to bear the brunt of this war. Look at the high number of casualties the muslims are suffering. If the US is fighting a war with China for eg, and there are bomb blasts in the US everyday killing innocent civilians, will the US blame China or its own people? Likewise, why would muslims kill thier own brethren if thier real enemy is the west. I dont say that we dont have any crazy people. There are crazies everywhere. Look at Timothy Mcweigh, who was no muslim. Likewise, we have our share of crazies. Easy money adds another dimension to it. These terrorists are obviously being armed by someone. The ISAF forces are supplied rations through Pakistan. They cannot survive without these supplies getting through. How can an army of terrorists survive while fighting with the professional army of Pakistan, as well as the most well equipped armies of the US and Western countries. They are not only fighting, they are killing innocent civilians everyday in Pakistan through bomb blasts. Some power is using these people for its own ulterior motives.
You have taken alot of exception to the following line in the Quran-
“Because of that, We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land – it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed there came to them Our Messengers with Al-Bayinat, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits in the Land.” (5:32)
The word “mischief” means if a person incites a group of people towards anarchy or loot and plunder. However, this punishment or any other can only be given by an Islamic government. No Individual can just get up and punish someone according to his understanding. For eg, the incident about the taxi driver murdering his daughter which you cited cannot be justified in any way.
The reason I quoted the verse of the Quran to anwser your allegation, about the Shaitan appearing to our Prophet (S.A.W), is that the Quran is the miracle given to our Prophet (S.A.W.), just in the same way as Hazrat Isa (A.S.) was given a miraculous birth, as well as power (with the permission of God) to heal the ill and even bring back the dead. The Quran can be put to any test to prove its authenticity. This Book is from God without any doubt.
By the way, the duty of the muslim is not to convert non-believers, however our duty is to spread the message of truth. The Quran says
“There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer and All-Knower ” (2:256)
US yearns for Pak capitulation
The News (Jang) | Sunday, March 09, 2008, Safar 30, 1429 A.H. |
Shireen M Mazari
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has given them (US/NATO), bases and logistic support as well as intelligence sharing but what the US is now demanding from Islamabad has shocked the Defence and Foreign Ministries and the initial reaction has been a rejection of what are highly intrusive demands for the US military and auxiliary personnel in Pakistan.
(1) …granting of a status that is accorded to the technical and administrative staff of the US embassy.
(2) …these personnel be allowed to enter and exit Pakistan on mere National Identification (for example a driving licence) that is without any visas.
(3) …Pakistan accepts the legality of all US licences, which would include arms licences.
(4) …all these (US/NATO) personnel be allowed to carry arms and wear uniforms as they wish, across the whole of Pakistan.
(5) …US criminal jurisdiction be applicable in Pakistan to US nationals, personnel would not be subject to Pakistani law.
(6) …exemption from all taxes, including indirect taxes like excise duty, etc.
(7) …inspection-free import and export of all goods and materials.
(8) …free movement of vehicles, vessels including aircraft, without landing or parking fees.
(9) …selected US contractors should also be exempted from tax payments.
(10) …free of cost use of US telecommunication systems and using all necessary radio spectrum.
(11) …a waiver of all claims to damage to loss or destruction of others’ property, or death to personnel or armed forces or civilians.
Who will win the game? (www.thenews.com.pk)
Saturday, December 06, 2008
Raza Rumi
I have been amazed at the reaction that my little piece, “Policy shifts not war” published on these pages on Dec 4 has generated especially from the other side of the border. My email inbox was inundated with a wide variety of views and comments, some of which were quite unsavoury and abusive. However, the silver lining is that there were many voices from the other side that called for regional cooperation and finding alternative solutions to mindless jingoism. Most Pakistanis, while disagreeing with my interpretation of partition, expressed their sadness at the Mumbai mayhem and reiterated that a war had to be avoided at all costs.
The media factor has been much analysed over the past few years. As a powerful player in the game, the role of Indian, and to a great extent, Pakistani media industries has been far from satisfactory. As another formal institution with charitable rhetoric, it is emerging as yet another tool for reinforcing conformity, boundaries and the famed refuge of the scoundrels.
Media polls with shady sample sizes are confirming that the ‘public’ in India wants revenge thus isolating the sensible Indian leadership that has tried to undo the legacy of the past. Similarly, the prediction of surgical strikes and eliminating the so-called hideouts for terrorists in Pakistan is a magic bullet that would create a terror-free region. Nothing could be farther from reality, if only the lessons from US misadventures, bloody at that, are kept in view. Aggression and violence breed further violence. The relative degree of failures in Iraq and Afghanistan are rude reminders of how the neo-con, or its ideologically equivalent Hindutva strategy, is bound to create more problems than solving anything.
If anything, the bloated and under-performing state and its agencies should be questioned as have the people of Mumbai who want accountability before anything else. From disaster-preparedness to intelligence failures, the list is long. The process seems hauntingly familiar to what happened in Islamabad a little while ago. The question is where have we landed ourselves after six decades of hard-earned Independence. Was the replacement of the central Raj state with that of native elites, the purpose of the Independence? And, what happened to opportunity, equality and self-realisation that independent peoples are supposed to enjoy. The region is still marked by extreme inequities, castes, sects, tribes, illiteracy and mortality not to mention killing of unborn girls with advanced technological tools.
In such a complicated environment, the list of Indian billionaires, the nuclear weapons and one-upmanship on intimacy with neo-imperialism is a measure for state-success. Surely something is fundamentally wrong somewhere and the elites – the elected in India and the unelected in Pakistan – appear unwilling to address the seriousness of the situation. The greatest of ironies is that despite the ideological and a nationalistic division, all else is shared including the curse of poverty.
Yet, the simplistic solutions, thanks to the mass-scale reach of corporate media, are in wars, counting nuclear warheads and strikes against terror. The jihad factories are nothing but an imperial tool for global dominance. Surprising that both the Indian and Pakistani states want to be allied with global powers and use such intimacy for the protection of the nation state and its flawed ideology. Deep down, both the societies for centuries are nothing but plural, diverse and complex entities where one-state-fits-all formula simply does not work.
Closer to home, the ideal of Pakistan has been under grave threat from the elected and unelected elites, and the extremist forces. The Mumbai tragedy and the daily carnage in Pakistan are reflective of our collective inability to provide citizenship to the vast numbers of ‘subjects’ and to contain oligarchies that exercise and reproduce power in South Asia. After all, Mumbai is also the striking arena of shining India where a billion-dollar house is under construction; and where slums are expanding and the non-locals have been threatened to leave the city until recently.
This is a direction that is dangerous and goes beyond the calls for war, revenge and fixing Pakistan. If only, the wiser and more nuanced sections of mainstream Indian media would understand. Threats will only strengthen the forces in Pakistan that have cherished confrontation and silence the majority that wants an end to mess at home and in the region. All I have to say to my Indian friends is that please do not drown the voices that are looking for long-term solutions. The moderate Pakistanis will also lose out in this hysteria and the beating of war drums. Who will then articulate the need for peace and cooperation? Is that what the linear view of “Pakistan” and “Pakistanis” in India aiming at? Well, we hope not.
As a reader, reminded me yesterday that Mr. Jinnah and the Muslim League had accepted the Cabinet Mission proposals in 1946 that would have created a confederation of three loosely-affiliated regions with a recognizable central government responsible for defence, currency and foreign affairs. The Congress rejected it and Partition assumed an inevitable uncontrollable dynamic.
In a way, the current twist of history cannot be ignored. Today, the Indian leadership and its vast body of intellectuals need to engage with Pakistan’s civilian government and strengthen its domestic position. Aggression will weaken or annihilate it and rob Pakistan of a chance for nurturing democracy after a nine-year long arbitrary rule. And, those who want peace will be marginalized further.
The terrorists would have won the game. There may be chance to scuttle this and the elected governments of India and Pakistan, backed by informed citizenry, need to play their due role.
The writer blogs at razarumi.com and edits two e-zines: Pak Tea House and Lahore Nama. Email: razarumi@gmail .com
While we are dealing with the current crisis of Mumbai terror attacks, it is essential to remember how Muslim governments around the world have discriminated against non-muslim populations. Wherever Muslims are in minority, they claim discrimination and want extra accommodation be made of their religious practices. Wherever they are in majority, the sentiments of the majority become paramount. They erect strict blasphemy laws to discriminate other religions.The most shining example is of course Saudi Arabia. The minority populations in Islamic nations have dwindled all over the world. The Muslims want to spread their “TRUTH”, how insecure is this truth that it cannot let other people have the same rights that they demand for themselves.
Ali Sina, the author of “Understanding Muhammad” (available at Amazon)says – “Islam is not a religion of peace. It is evil. It is a dangerous cult of death and terror. The proof is here. Let us tell the truth. Save lives, not lies. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.” You can read more on his website “faithfreedom.org”
Anjali: Ali Sina has been funded by zionists and is writing books under full support and funding of these hidden hands. You want to learn the truth about Islam and want answers to these questions, concern, check out some of the lectures of Dr. Zakir Naik. Look him up on Google, YouTube, IslamicFinder.org or any other major Islamic website. You should learn the truth about Islam before you accusse 1.6 Billion followers of this religion to be a “cult members”. If someone around you finds out that you are on the internet spreading this kind of hateridden BS, and that someone happens to be a muslim or know someone that is a muslim, you might find yourself in a rather uncomfortable position
CHUCK: The root of the evil (your detailed BS, incoherent rants) lies in the following observation I made:
1. Your brother in law is a persian i.e., your sister went for a persian guy.
Ok, now that probably pissed you off but you convinced yourself, that he might be a good guy and you are also a good guy and can learn to live with these NO GOOD MUSLIM SOBs.
2. Then came along your daughter, and she jumped on this black dude.
Man, I feel your pain. You are telling yourself that you are a liberal and can write a few line on PAJAMAS MEDIA in your PJs and prove that you are some sort of psuedo-intellectual and teach us muslims that our religion and our ways are really NOT all that great and HOPE that you might convince one soul to change than you might not be soo bitter after all. Well buddy, keep on trying…
The following is an excerpt from a lecture that Dr. Zakir Naik presented on Peace TV on July 31, 2008:
“I can prove that 9/11 was an inside job. I’ve got the proof that can defeat the proof that has been proven by the people. Just a few days back, there was an article that came in the newspaper, that 75 professors from the U.S. say and believe that 9/11 was an inside job. And in that article, it was mentioned . . . It came in The Times of India, I think on the 7th of September. It says that 75 professors and scientists, belonging to different universities from different parts of the U.S., believe that 9/11 was an inside job. They say that there were some politicians in the White House who engineered the destruction of the Twin Towers, and, they say, the main reason was so that they could attack, and they could have control of the oil-rich countries. Open secret, I told you.”
Non-Muslims will not have equal Humanrights – Zakir Naik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg
Death Penalty for Apostates! (Dr. Zakir Naik)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAZR8YIhxI&feature=related
TO: Faisal
RE: My Apologies….
….for not paying much attention to this thread of late. There is a matter more important to me and there are only so many hours in a day.
Yeah.
We see so many indications of that on a regular basis. Not only of late, but of history.
How is it that God tells Abraham that…
And yet, as I recall, Muhammoud curses the Children of Abraham, from Issac.
There’s an interesting ‘indicator’.
And that’s just the first of many I can cite.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
TO: Junaid Shah
RE: Heh….
….You ARE a completel idiot.
The guy is a former US Marine.
Why on God’s Green Earth should I be in ‘pain’?
What a jerk you are. Not to mention your being something of a racist.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. A clarification…..if you will….or whether you won’t…..
I’m pleased that my eldest daughter has chosen a US Marine for her mate.
Why?
Because she is obviously looking for someone in her Life to uphold all that her Father had held…..
He being an airborne-ranger of the US Army persuasion.
Getting a ‘clue’ here? That genotypes take a ‘back seat’ to morals?
Maybe that’s an interesting ‘problem’ inside of Islam…..
Chuck, you wrote the following :
“How is it that God tells Abraham that…
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. — Genesis 12:3
And yet, as I recall, Muhammoud curses the Children of Abraham, from Issac.”
Let me make you aware of the following :
At least Eleven times a day, every muslim is required to read the following in his/her daily prayers.
“O Allah, let your peace come upon Muhammed (S.A.W.) and the followers of Muhammed (S.A.W.) as You have sent peace upon Ebrahim (A.S.) and his followers. Truly you are Praiseworthy and Glorious. O Allah, bless Muhammed (S.A.W.) and the followers of Muhammed (S.A.W.) as you have blessed Ebrahim (A.S.) and his followers. Truly You are Praiseworthy and Glorious.”
The Holy Quran says
“Ebrahim was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (to worship none but Allah alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikin. Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ebrahim are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammed S.A.W.) and those who have believed (muslims). And Allah is the Wali (Protector and helper )of the believers.” (3:67-68)
and also
“Or were you witnesses when death approached Yaqub (Jacob)? When he said unto his sons, “What will you worship after me?” They said, “We shall worship your Allah the Ilah of your fathers, Ebrahim, Ismail, Ishaq, One Ilah, and to Him we submit (in Islam).” (2:133)
“And they say ‘Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided.’ Say (to them O Muhammed S.A.W.) ‘Nay, (we follow) only the religion of Ebrahim, Hanif (Islamic Monotheism), and he was not of Al-Mushrikin’ (those who worshipped others along with Allah)” (2:135)
“Say (O Muslims) : ‘We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ebrahim, Ismail, Ishaq, Yaqub, and to Al-Asbat (the offspring of the twelve sons of Yaqub), and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam).’ “(2:136)
The above will give you an idea that you have been misinformed.
You guys should read this news from today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7771243.stm
There is a good possibility that indian intelligence was involved. They knew these people and one of their operative handed the sim cards to these people. Police was also told to keep shut and not to investigate about Mumbai attacks!
so many stupid comments frm fellow indians.and for the people how said that pakistan is very week i just wanna say that pakistan is the 7 nuclear state having freinds like china suadiarabia uae and iran.the 11 fastast growing economy of the world super power of the muslim world.4 biggest army in the world.having a missile technology ranges to target even europ and isreal.and much more powerfull nuclear weapon then india hav its not me saying its kuldeep nayer columist frm india saying. so fellow indian v knw that v r less then u but v hav the capibility of war with u.
asfund/ faisal
boys.. having nukes dont keep a country safe.you call them deterrant,( against india). imagine, what will be left of pakistan after an indian retaliates.just charcoal..
what pakistani forces boast of, only if you kindly take out sometime to study about it before boasting. It is only one third the size of indian forces.with an airforce 70% distroyed by IAF in bangladeshi war and literally no navy.
Next time, it wont be a disgraceful surrender similar to that of ayub khan,
he will be made to mount a donkey and drive all around pakistan .
Leave comments and our house matters for us to decide.
You dont have to worry about indian muslims. they are indians first ..
well respected and acknowledged for their contribution in building india.
APG abdul kalam, is still the most respected president in the history of india.keep your paws off our motherland,spend time healing your home made
“international migraine”
JUNAID: you have too much good memmories about a friend “anjali” in US?
i too have similar memmories about a nazia from lahore.
cheers
Junaid
for your kind information there is no discrimination of any communities by the ruling government in india, the only ones discriminuated are the majorities..
save your energery, save all teenaged boys in pakistan from their pattan sugar daddies in wazeeristan.
save your countrymen from the nukes that you consider as your saviour .
if it lands up with any of your holywarriors who dont know to operate it.
it might blow up your country first,then the world next.
buddy………..save yourself.
TAIMUR:
Yes bajrang dal activists have done many atrocities. But unlike in pakistan
we treat criminals as criminals and not heroes.
somebody who kill, will be hanged by the neck, like the faisal guru whom your country sent to attack indian parliament
and kasav whom you sent to kill innocent people in mumbai.
Junaid Shah:
Your sayings are correct:
In india many people in jail are Muslims
without charge:
Muslims will lead everafter:
INNALLAH MASABREEN
Americans and West have short memories. Let us go back in time, to creation of SEATO, to undermine India’s neutrality. Modern arms were supplied to Pakistan, including Sabre Jets, later known as widower makers by Germans. America never respected India’s will to be democratic and non aligned country. In UN Security Council there was overwhelming support for Pak and India had to rely on Soviet Union at the time.
During Bangdesh war India was put under pressure by America. It moved its 6th or 7th Fleet to threaten India. Also it was Nixon who called Mrs. Indira Ghandi “that bitch”.
Look at the record of Pak’s governance, coup after after coup by its general and show trial and hanging politicians, popular with people. On other hand India had democractic elections, right up to date. Maybe not perfect but always fair.
Let us fast forward to the time of Soviet occupation whence billions of dollars of arms were supplied to Pak’s Intel. I think it was Brengsky who was boasting about these supplies. Now things are coming home to roost. These weapons are used to kill allied soldiers, our brave men and women. Do not forget the training given to Bin Laden and his cohorts.
Much political maturity, clear vision, is needed to be a super power and not just flex the muscles and gun boat diplomacy.
There is a lot America can learn about diplomacy from Brits. Hope, in future such pitfalls are avoided.