More South Koreans Will Die. Maybe Americans Too
“The question for South Korea is how much more serious can these attacks get before the risk of doing nothing, and showing there’s no cost, is worse than the risk of prompting an overreaction by North Korea,” says risk consultant Andrew Gilholm to the Wall Street Journal. “My own view is we’re still not at that level.”
Gilholm’s assessment mirrors that of Washington policy insiders. So there has been a decision, made as much by drift as well as design, to tolerate South Korean casualties. That was the thinking behind the failure to send the George Washington, the nuclear-powered carrier, into the Yellow Sea for joint exercises with South Korea after the Cheonan incident.
Predictably, the soft approach did not work. On Wednesday, the Pentagon announced that the carrier and its strike group were on their way to the Yellow Sea for drills with South Korean vessels. If the Obama administration had ordered the George Washington to the area this summer, the shelling of Yeonpyeong might never have happened.
The beneficial effect of sending the carrier to waters close to North Korea was unfortunately diluted by other Obama administration responses. For instance, special envoy Stephen Bosworth said that the artillery duel on Tuesday — the South Koreans eventually got around to returning fire — “is very undesirable” and then called for “all sides” to exercise “restraint.”
General Walter Sharp, the American general in command of UN forces in South Korea, was hardly more inspiring in the face of North Korean aggression. His response to Pyongyang’s murder of South Korean civilians and soldiers? A call for general-officer talks with North Korea.
“I think a similar North Korean provocation could come at any time,” said President Lee immediately after the shelling. At least the South Korean leader got this right. Feeble responses from Washington and Seoul mean the North Koreans will definitely strike again. In fact, Pyongyang this week warned of additional attacks.
Additional attacks will mean more South Koreans will be killed. And with the drift to general conflict evident on the Korean peninsula, we can expect American forces there and in the region to be drawn into the fight.
Democracies are known for weak responses to the hostile acts of authoritarian states. This week, neither the White House nor the Blue House broke the pattern. They adopted policies that look like the ones we have witnessed before every major war in memory. We should not be surprised when conflict roils North Asia.
Greetings:
Since the recent government-mandated analog to digital TV signal conversion, I been receiving and watching some of the Korean Broadcasting System’s KBS World channel. From those broadcasts and what I’ve read, I have come to the conclusion that what’s going on on the Korean Peninsula is analogous to when your best buddy is in love with an evil woman. The South wants the relationship to continue and/or grow and the North wants to get everything it can out of the relationship while putting in as little as possible.
Koreans live in predominately Confucian culture. That they are now separated both politically and familially into North and South is troubling for them all the way down to their emotional level. After their long history of, first, being united into a unitary Korea, and, then, trying to survive between their larger and non-pacifistic neighbors, China and Japan, South Koreans find themselves vulnerable to their desire for a re-unified culture and polity while North Koreans find themselves vulnerable to the Kims and their Communist party/state.
It seems to me that the South Koreans have to get their compassionate humanitarian impulses under control to the point of actually breaking off all economic relationships with the North and to encourage all their allies to do the same. Feeding the North Koreans does not weaken the North Korea state. Investing the South’s capital in the North doesn’t either. As an economics professor once told me, “It’s a lot easier to move capital into a communist country than it is to move it out. However difficult it is emotionally to pursue that course, the alternative has been tried extensively and produced no good result. The recent spate of North Korean attacks closely parallels the terrorist attacks that Kim the Second was involved in prior to his overt ascendency to power. Monkey see, monkey do; apples and trees, etc. Have you met our son, Kim the Third?
Secondarily, the South should develop the capability to make thing go bump in the North Korean night. It doesn’t necessarily have to be an immediate response to every North Korean provocation (atrocity?) but the lack of any punitive response, even at the request of the South’s allies and purported allies, will not dissuade the North from activities which have proven effective in the recent and not so recent past. Fifty South Koreans have recently been killed by the North. The South Koreans play a lot of baseball; it’s time they started keeping score.
Flag is yin and yang.
what south korea should have done is shell the hell out of nort korea wiht in seconds after the attack,
THE TET OFFENSIVE, NORTH KOREA AND THE DEATH OF WALTER CRONKITE
What significance does the Tet Offensive in the Vietnam War and the death of Walter Cronkite have with the growing crisis over North Korea: its acts of war, support of terror and proliferating nuclear ambitions? Nothing on the surface. But when we dig deeper what comes to light are more dire signs warning Obama of the costs to his administartion and US strategic policy if he doesn’t put aside his appeasement mentality and taking a hard stand against Kim Jong il seek the destruction of his evil regime…….. Click my name ApolloSpeaks and read on.
Ummm, no.
Oh great. Another wacky numerologist. Zzzzzzzzz.
Gordon is on the John Batchelor Show almost every program. Listen to him.
Tell me again that that contrail in the sky off of Southern California was NOT a missile launch…
Any Flag-of-Convenience cargo ships in the area with NoKo cargoes aboard?
If I was Kim, planning to rattle the saber and spill some SoKo blood in the process, that’s the kind of “Back OFF, Jack! I can land one on YOUR kisser, too!” message that I’d send to the Alleged Hawaiian.
It was not a missile launch; there is abundant documentation that it was a contrail from a commercial jet. Anything meaningful you have to say is rendered irrelevant by claiming that it had anything to do with North Korea / China / et al.
“It was not a missile launch; there is abundant documentation that it was a contrail from a commercial jet.”
Uh-huh…because you were NOT there, but yet you know the whole story.
Relax, ace, I think out of the box and unconventionally because that’s the way our enemies think.
You seem a little too eager to pooh-pooh the notion to me, though.
“Anything meaningful you have to say is rendered irrelevant by claiming that it had anything to do with North Korea / China / et al.”
Aw gee, and you are so important to me…color me crushed.
Present the documentation, never mind abundance.
I’ve seen many a shuttle launch. That was no airplane.
….and notice how all those damn jet airliners have a plume of flame coming from the rear and ascend nearly vertical… and at roughly 3500 miles per hour. Anyone that did the model rocket thing as a kid knows the visual difference…. Plane my ass.
To the subject: noko has the forth largest military on earth. Almost ALL of the countries budget goes towards weapons and bullets. This will do nothing but escalate, for a few reasons. First, and most importantly…it’s a rice bowl thing, the old man is going out and can not, will not stop from showing his kid the way to deal with us ‘capitolist swine’. It’s all about pride and ‘dad’ puffing up his chest to project the tuff guy image. To ease his fears, he has what he thinks is the gun in the knife fight…mistakenly. He has what he believes to be an American leadership that isn’t acting in her own best interest. (gotta point there) In the past, everytime he got out of line, he was trained to do it again, by reward. …and he has soko drawing lines in the sand and everytime he steps over…they just draw a new one and issue the ‘If you do that again… & Next time..’ He may even balk if the chicoms tell him ‘ok my good friend, you have done well… but now is not the time ..but soon’
Dear Mr cthulhu The idea of a comments page is to hear different opinions. People like you don’t want to hear it then GO AWAY.I
I’ve seen the contrail explanation, complete with geometric and trigonometric concepts I forgot after college. So yes, it’s plausible that it was an airliner. However, I still wonder about this visual phenomenon being apparently uncommon enough to warrant coverage by the local TV news. If the “at this altitude, on this bearing, and with the setting sun at this position” argument is the truthful explanation, why is this phenomenon not seen on an almost daily basis in that area? That’s a major air corridor, with many scheduled flights traversing the same patch of sky at roughly the same time of day every day.
I think people are not being unreasonable to remain skeptical of the official explanation, particularly in the light of the government’s clumsy response to the questions raised. Regardless, the whole thing took on a life of its own.
Plausible….having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable.
Ever see an ‘airliner’ with a single engine? How about control towers saying all aircraft are accounted for and and they have none on that flight path or trajectory? …or no ‘airliner’ excluding the SST… fly over 700 mph?
As kids, we watched dozens of launches from Vandenberg… and this looks the same, velocity and all. But what do I know? The experts say:
“Remember the contrail controversy of November 10, 2010 off the California coast and we were told it was a “planes contrail” our collective rears-it was a missile and military experts agree. WND.com quotes retired U.S. Air Force Brig. Gen. Jim Cash., “There is absolutely no doubt that what was captured on video off the coast of California was a missile launch, was clearly observed by NORAD, assessed by a four-star general in minutes, and passed to the president immediately,” he said.
The General explains that NORAD surely detected the missile and the Intel would have be assessed by a four-star general and then passed directly to the President. The General is a former U.S. Air Force fighter pilot and commander of an F-15 squadron and an F-16 wing. Gen. Cash was assigned to NORAD as an assistant director of operations at the Cheyenne Mountain complex is fully knowledgeable of NORAD procedures and is far more credible than the White House.”
When I say “plausible” I mean a horizontal contrail having the appearance of a vertical component when viewed from the ground. That much is indeed plausible. I also doubt that a single trail automatically disproves the possibility of it being a multi-engined aircraft, especially twin engines along the midline.
However, I still doubt the official explanation for the other reasons given. People should be seeing what look like missile shots on the Pacific horizon almost every day if the official explanation is the correct one. And people definitely aren’t seeing them almost every day, hence the fact that this instance became major news.
Miss, I’ll do my best to explain it, so we have the same picture in our minds… and I’ll pass on the trig functions. The ‘zoomed’ in clip is deceiving. First, it could not be coming towards the camera, or the plume would get larger in diameter.. it does not. So it has to be going either up, or away. It appears to be more ‘up’ than ‘away’. Its not like your looking up from the ground… By the type of clouds it passes by or though, its estimated to have gone 30+ thousand feet, in like 12 seconds. Picture the cone of view you would have looking at a vertical line in the sky that is 6 miles high…From over 35 miles away. Or, hold six inches of tape measure out in front of you at arms length… now you have the viewpoint. I’d say thats about the best viewpoint you could have. If you do the math, it comes out to roughly 2100 mph. No airliner travels at that speed, and only a few of our military jets will do a vertical at that speed. My kids E and F series, 5ft tall model rockets look virtually identical when viewed 5 football fields away. As for a single contrail from a twin.. the compressor fans (last set at the rear) ‘spin’ the remaining solids and liquids from the combustion process. These are carbon compounds and water in steam form and what you see is the condensation when the steam hits the cold air. The vortex from each fan is always very easy to discern, and given we can see the plumes being formed, decisive. Also there is a semi-military report on WND.
…I’m not trying to be condescending, or ‘win’ a debate here, but trying to help you understand. If I did not, I’m fresh out of ideas
“People should be seeing what look like missile shots on the Pacific horizon almost every day if the official explanation is the correct one.” Yes, and with what I’ve read… a point no-one else has written. As a kid, having lived in L.A. for nine years.. and remembering how they crisscrossed the sky… you are right, there are no similarities. This thing has the thick plume and dirty tan color of a dry propellant rocket.
problem with this is, why would any enemy of the u.s. fire a missile around california?
“Californication” is a huge factor in the sleaze and dysfunction of our country
if an enemy launched a missile targeted for la or hollywood or (please god, san francisco) would i bemoan the action or praise it?
personally, i think the missile launch was a rogue american submariner who, seeing the inevitable failure of california, decided to take matters into his own hands….
If the ever-so-coy-and-evasive Chinese mentors of the ever-so-baiting North Koreans don’t act in tandem or separately with the South Koreans to put a halt to these combative feelers from the desperately-face-seeking North Koreans, then that should be all that we Americans need as an impetus to get out of that troublesome, tragic Peninsula altogether, immediately.
Screw “foreign public opinion”.
Don’t mutual defense treaties require mutuality? Can anyone imagine the South Koreans, or anyone else for that matter, coming to the aid of us Americans? I believe we currently have some 32K American troops on that tragic peninsula already soaked with American blood, under conditions of a hostile “truce” since 1953. These 32K young Americans form a substantial part of what has become during the 20th cent., and so far into this 21st cent., an entitlement expected from the world’s ever emergent trouble spots. “…Let the Americans handle it…” has become the unspoken mantra, the unspoken obligation of us Americans.
That peninsula, along with its adjacent seas, simply is not worth one more American casualty.
OK, let’s say we surrender the peninsula. Then what about Japan? Or the rest of Southeast Asia? Or Australia? Those 32k Americans are more than a speedbump on the Korean Peninsula. They are a reminder to an entire region that military powerhouses cannot pick on weaker countries.
The world needs a good guy and I don’t see any other countries out there stepping forward.
It’s past time we Americans ceased being the world’s unrequited “good guy”. The twentieth century has amply demonstrated that American contributions to regional stability are short-lived, at best. What the Normandy invasion and the American financed Marshall Plan accomplished for Western Europe is not in the least applicable to any part of Asia. The regional cultures and histories are poles apart. When we finally get ourselves out of Afghanistan and Iraq for good, they will revert to their centuries of barbaric practices. Current events attest to this.
The “Domino Theory” is no longer applicable, if it ever was.
We provided the Central Asia region with an Iraq free of Saddam and his poisonous gases. That wasn’t enough to overcome the inherent religious/ethnic/cultural divisions straddling those artificial British/French colonial hand drawn boundaries and “kingdoms”.
Enough of America’s blood has been shed, worldwide. America’s blood is not an “entitlement”.
Thank you.
Also, Obama would not be the person to be at the helm of any crisis, unless we want to fail, again
OMG
The “domino theory” was quite applicable during the Korean War. There’s no doubt that South Korea would have been enslaved by North Korea if it weren’t for desperate US intervention. At that point, North Korea would have tripled in population and have almost double the land area.
Given an aggressive military power roughly two thirds the size of Japan and as psychotic as North Korea has turned out to be, I really don’t see this turning out well. Among other things, they’d probably have the resources to do a proper nuclear bomb by now and a full scale invasion of Japan in the 50s to 70s would be possible. Even if North Korea didn’t do anything, Japan would have to militarize, just to protect itself. To be blunt, it’d be a lot shakier world than we currently live in.
The domino effect is still in play, just as it used to be. You let South Korea go to the dogs, expect Taiwan next, since through the North Korean proxy you will have given the Chinese a green light. It is a simple equation: America is perceived as weak; therefore, it will be increasingly tested, each failure leading to yet another test. The drum roll to WW3 is quite audible, yet few can hear it. Act now, or be acted upon later. Do I need to say, simple, again? America has gotten itself in such a mess domestically that it is a target now. Blood will be shed, there is no escaping it.
Exactly…and here’s what I see. I think they will attack our ships during the ‘games’ with tactical’s. We’ll respond in like and they will put up their air force, of which we will annihilate anything that takes air. The carrier strike group we’re sending over there… is a well orchestrated and very formable machine… offensively as well as defensively. Then they will respond with a nuke, if they have one that works. We’ll intercept and then take out their hard spots with the bunker busters we have stored at Midway. If we don’t let them make the first move… we’re the bad guys… if we reciprocate with nukes … again we will be viewed as the bad guy. …and bet your rectum.. if zero can come out looking anything like a ‘stand-up’ American, in which the above scenario would tend to do.. he’ll play it. If I could think of it… they have not only thought of it… but have plan a, b and c for it.
Duke-Jinx, let’s not get ahead of ourselves. This kind of lethal posturing has been going on for a long time. I have no idea whether a nuclear armed North Korea will ever decide to invade South Korea, but it’s worth noting here that North Korea already could do something similar with chemical weapons. They have a ton of artillery, some rockets, and a bunch of commandos which could be used for delivery.
But such tactics invite a nuclear response. Whether that happens or not is one of many big unknowns, but I see no evidence that North Korea is inclined at this time to make that gamble.
Karl, you are correct and I agree in part, there are too many ‘unknowns’ to make any accurate predictions. And I did not consider the chemical aspect, nor the ready means of delivery via artillery pieces, which amount in the thousands… and imbedded on the border.
In light of Jong-Il’s unfathomable thought process, it is compounded. However, I believe in his own little tortured mind… he thinks it’s all about him, and has no concerns beyond his own projected, selfish image. China is the temporary peaceful means of desistence, America and soko, being the one of force. Nevertheless, we are soon to find out. I just hope… if needed, the change up from a non-live ammo war game scenario… to live, does not cost a single American life.
“Enough of America’s blood has been shed, worldwide. America’s blood is not an “entitlement”.”
I tend to agree with you, especially when our government is not even trying to do the job.
One day the Koreans (and the rest of the world) has to slug it out, shed the blood and see who survives. I’m not certain we need to be in the middle of it after 60 years. Moreover, neither the North nor the South likes us very much.
Charlie,
“What the Normandy invasion and the American financed Marshall Plan accomplished for Western Europe is not in the least applicable to any part of Asia. The regional cultures and histories are poles apart”
I guess JAPAN isnt part of ASIA?
I guess turning a Suicidal Warrior Expansionist Nation into a (pacifistic!) western style economic powerhouse and the resultant boom in their citizens standard of living never happened at all?
Fairy tale? Dream? “..it was going to happen on its own anyway”?
It can be done, its BEEN done before, all that we lack is the will to see it through.
Well, then how about this: Invite Japan and South Korea into the club of nuclear-armed states. Modern nuclear weaponry, and the means of delivery, would present a pretty tough potential response to all those NoKo artillery pieces aimed at Seoul that have so many rattled. With a nuclear counter force in the South there would be little need of a 32K American “tripwire” along the 38th parallel. That this and a corresponding arming of Japan would freak out the Chinese is feature, not a bug, and any serious prospect of it, and most importantly the stated reasons for it, would greatly concentrate the minds of many in Beijing. Implementation would complete a ring of fire around China: Russia, Japan, the Koreas, India, and Pakistan. All would be nuclear armed, and all would border China: Not a pretty picture if you are sitting in Beijing.
What if Japan and South Korea already had tactical nukes! Do You think they would advertise it?
No they wouldn’t and it would be be hey Norks surprise! We gotcha on that one didn’t we!
Dr. Strangelove: “Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn’t you tell the world, EH?”
They wouldn’t tell? Really? Well, that would be a novel nuclear strategy. With two notable exceptions in history, nuclear weapons have been valued for their deterrent effect. Even those, like the Israelis, who refuse to acknowledge possession of nuclear arms never-the-less encourage the belief that they do possess them.
Good idea. As in domestic affairs, so in foreign ones: once the bad guys have guns, the good guys need them too.
you are right.There are no other ‘good guys’ out there BUT there is just one factor that remains……….as long as you have Obama at the controls,the ship is going nowhere near a fight.The ‘Captain’ just wants to ‘talk’ to the enemy.
The Captain of a ship is authorized to do whatever is necessary to secure the safety of the ship unless specifically ordered otherwise.
“Can anyone imagine the South Koreans, or anyone else for that matter, coming to the aid of us Americans?”
Yeah.
They sent around 300,000 troops to help us fight the communists in Vietnam. Which is a lot more than allies like France or the UK sent (as in about 300,000 more).
Excellent point which I overlooked. I was in Viet Nam, but not where I could see any of them them.
….forgot to add here that I was thinking more in terms of our current emerging problem specific to South Korea and their peninsula, rather than in terms of earlier wars. Haven’t we had ample time to learn that “Allied support” has had, will always have, abrasive aspects. It’s a given (isn’t it?) that the South Koreans will aid us on their own home ground. But we Americans should defer to the South Koreans in the inevitable disputes of local tactics and strategy, after all, it’s their homeland, not ours.
If we press for “our way” in intra-mural disputes we then open ourselves to being held responsible for the inevitable post-war problems. Haven’t we Americans experienced enough of that “blame game” in the 20th Cent.?….including the first decade of this new century? The concept of “who is responsible” weighs very heavily in East Asia in every human undertaking, much more so than in our provincial Occidental thinking. Finger pointing and evasion are exquisite art forms in the East. Along with this is the concept of “face” which is the all-over-riding element of concern of every moment and movement of human affairs.
Our ‘allies’ around the world have at present their plates full of their own domestic troubles, witness the gradual withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.
We Americans must never cultivate warm and fuzzy feelings about fellow treaty-signers. Pragmatism rules supreme. Conditions change. Our ‘allies’ never, never, hold warm and fuzzy feelings about us Americans.
Please forgive my long-windedness here. It’s because we Americans always seem to be learning anew that which we should’ve remembered.
Dear Mr Charlie Griffith,……As an Australian ex serviceman I feel in sulted by your remarks ,that infer the point that ‘No allies stand by you when the going gets tough’. We , the Australians have stood by the US through ALL wars that we were asked for help.We are still in Iraq and Afghanistan, so please tell the truth. Thankyou.
Please accept my abject apologies.
I am more aware than I can detail here in this space of the wonderful appreciation I have of you Aussies and of my enduring friendship with two of your countrymen formed during my years in S.E.Asia.
This is one of those cringing, awful occasions where an unthinking blanket statement has un-intentially incensed some one I’m certain I’d like to know based upon prior associations.
Well you’re quite right about Australia being a capable and stalwart ally. It’s an example of why I think the Anglosphere should be the extent of America’s standing alliances. I believe the frustration Mr. Griffith echos is borne of the fact that we in the USA are forever “damned if we do, damned if we don’t”. The same lot who lambaste us for intervention in Afghanistan lambaste us for failing to intervene in Rwanda and Sudan. There’s no pleasing the majority of the world, and many of us here have simply had enough of empire and want a return to republic.
WOW! I’m trying to understand how this might go. I have a 21(oops)22year old in this fight. have any of you? I’m just curious about how this might go down. And I dont know. I know Alqaeda wanted to cripple us economically so that we cant or wont respond with our full military capability, and we have helped with that. I know we have been the worlds cannon fodder in the pas. Do we have to be the worlds cannon fodder.?
I agree as to south korea. They seem to expect that the US is good for buying Kias and Hyundais, defending south korea and not much else. They slapped obama for asking that SoKo markets be opened to american cars and beef. They are overwhelmingly pacifist. Not one more US soldier should be asked to die for them.
Japan and Australia are different: both are defensible islands and both have a history of helping us. The south koreans, on the other hand, have done jack in Iraq and Afganistan other than sending some MP’s and engineers.
“The south koreans, on the other hand, have done jack in Iraq and Afganistan other than sending some MP’s and engineers.”
All in all, I’ll give them a pass on that one… they DO have a nuclear armed Communist nut-bar at their border…one that does things like sink naval vessels, down comercial airliners, and attept complete decapitation of their government via terrost bombings, to name a few.
Their neighbor makes Mexico look good
But the SoKos insulate their markets from our cars and beef while sending every kia and Hyundai here they can. They demonstrate against the US troops we station there–for them–and elect officials that pine for meetings with the NoKos and do nothing for us.
Despite decades of aid and assistance, they can’t do anything–anything–against the NoKos. So why do we overlook their failure to assist us in Afghanistan and Iraq? Not even 1,000 troops to help out–just more Kias flooding our markets while we pay for our troops to protect them.
I cannot see a single reason to protect South Korea that won’t protect itself, protests our troops and values the US only as a market for their own companies. Japan and Australia are different and defensible.
Those tat think we ought to use more of our treasure and blood to defend this ingrate nation of pacifist voters are kidding themselves. Supporting the SoKos is like supporting a useless, indolent and unreliable relative because you’re afraid of what the family might think if you cut him loose. Little do you know they can’t figure out why you keep supporting him at all.
Smith,
I agree with your frustrations, the whole WORLD aint worth the blood and treasure we’ve expended the last 100 years, but what else can we do?
I’m also amused in a way by just how “pacifistic” the SoKo civilians are, even in the face of such a tyrannical enemy. Nothing spells “progress” more than the younger (non-war experienced) generations demanding we stop annoying the Tyrants, make “peace” and say “no to war!” with those actively trying to kill and enslave us. Shades of the annoyingly ignorant American/Euro hipsters we’ve put up with for the past 40 years….a sure sign Soko is solidly “westernizing”
The problem isnt that the peace hippies wont ever attack anyone, the problem is they cant defend themselves, because they dont live in the real world. They actually think everyone (except their evil leadership) is a non-threatening pacifistic slacker like themselves, and we can all get along.
Western leaning, liberal societies living on the frontiers of madness (Commies, Islam) are vulnerable to violent collapse which will destabalize everything…they unfortunately need to be propped up untill the bad guys implode, which probably wont happen without exhibiting the kind of resolve to confront then the soft democracies do not possess.
Catch -22 if there ever was one
I call it playing Jesus. Slap me and I’ll just turn the other cheek.
I doubt it’s so simple. What happens when the police start to enclose the crazy man with a gun? He kills himself. With North Korea it is a crazy man with a nuclear warhead that we all know he is itching to use.
Most people are reacting as though North Korea shelled the island just because Kim Jong Il is crazy. The North claims they were provoked by the actions of the South. What if they have a point? I read that the South was engaged in some kind of military exercise prior to the actions of the North. Is the South guilty of a misstep here? Notice the lack of further action by the SK army. The defense minister resigned. The SK president gave a warning of “don’t ever try that again” after loss of life and property. To me this only makes sense if the South triggered the whole incident and now doesn’t want to lose face.
I’m not saying the North is right to do what they did, but it’s not like they haven’t warned people not to screw with them. Why the South continues to try to “make nice” with them is beyond me.
Anyone else feel this way?
I read something our General in South Korea said about a full engagement with the north. He said something to the effect of ” they would roll over us like a steam roller” I l think he also said it would be over in about an hour
He was talking about the US Military on the boarder. That’s a good reason for the South to make nice , IMO
B.S.
if they could have rolled over the south they would have succeeded the first time
to quote the venerable thornton melon : “Truman was too much of a pussy-wimp to let macarthur go in there and flush out those commie bastards…”
the main problem that people are missing is that koreans dont see a N. korea or a S. korea—- it is all korea and tons of people in the south have families that counldnt get out of the north
south korea can handle north korea but it is the chinese that one must be worried about; and when you have a wishy-washy weenie ally like the current U.S. that is more than enough to keep the south koreans behind the 8-ball
Mr Freeze,
Its that same “dont piss off the bad guy” problem in we have in the cities….you get shot because you “diss’ed” someone, made the wrong type of eye contact, or some other nonsense that “caused” a thug to act like a thug.
Kinda like a simple First Amendment issue, like burning a Koran, becoming a world wide “danger” because of the “response”
As long as we accept the “soft bigotry of low expetations” from thugs and islamists, we will forever be on egg shells
Screw them, drop nukes, dictate terms…they will be better and more generous than they can imagine (ask the Japs and Germans how post war treatment by the US)
The North Koreans have no choice but to be on high alert at all times. They are a proud people who will not bow down before American corporate plutocrats. Like Sadaam Hussein, Kim Jong Il has defied the forces of corporate greed, and he fears that his people will be slaughtered mecilessly like the Iraqis for this defiance. Even under Obama, corporations are still very influential and fear the examples of alternatives to greed-based societies on American workers. A militarized state is the price they must pay to be free of the tyranny of McDonalds, Coca-Cola, and Wal-Mart.
Are you high right now?
Such a stupid comment you must be an academic of some sort.
Naaahh. He’s applied for a vacancy in the humanities department at Berkeley.
A militarized state is the price they must pay to be free of the tyranny of McDonalds, Coca-Cola, and Wal-Mart.
The North Koreans are not remotely free. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of them have starved to death thanks to their militarized state. Many were reduced to eating grass just to have something to eat but grass is NOT something you can eat for long without fatal health complications.
The North Koreans don’t even have a stable electricity supply. A satellite photo a couple of years ago showed that whole portion of Asia at night and North Korea was almost entirely DARK; there were only a couple of small specks of light at Pyongyang. The rest of the region was covered in light.
And the biggest flaw with the North Korean regime is that their citizens aren’t free to leave and go elsewhere. Any attempt to leave can get a North Korean killed or sentenced to one of their very harsh prison camps for 10 years or more.
If North Korea is your idea of paradise, I sincerely recommend that you go there. Just don’t bother with a return ticket; you will NOT be permitted to leave again.
“If North Korea is your idea of paradise, I sincerely recommend that you go there. Just don’t bother with a return ticket; you will NOT be permitted to leave again.”
Unless Bill Clinton goes to North Korea and gets you and brings you home.
I suggest we take up a collection to send this person to his/her chosen “worker’s paradise” in North Korea.
Anyone wanna contribute? I’ll chip in the first $5. As was mentioned before, we only have to come up with enough for a one-way ticket, since it’s pretty much impossible to leave North Korea.
DON’T send him any money, CW…this person would only spend it on more dope…and manifestly he has had quite enough already!
Actually, I wasn’t gonna send money, I was gonna send a non-refundable plane ticket to North Korea. I’m sure the dimwit wouldn’t have used it.
However, I was really using the offer to make a point. This person wouldn’t accept a plane ticket to NoKo, because they really don’t want to follow the ideals they preach… that’s why they’re perfectly happy to sit there and type on a corporate-manufactured PC, using internet service provided by a corporation, on phone lines put up by a corporation, to bash corporations.
Hypocrisy abounds.
Mr. Lucky
Hey Liar. Hypocrite. What about this? “You people”?
14. Conservative Wanderer
“You people need some new heroes.”
November 22, 2010 – 7:03 pm
29. Conservative Wanderer
“What the hell is wrong with you people?”
November 22, 2010 – 8:06 am
7. Conservative Wanderer
“Yeah, you people sure now how to pick em… ”
“Go ahead, I’ll wait . . .”
November 9, 2010 – 7:16 am
49. Conservative Wanderer
“And you wonder why we hold you people in such low regard.”
November 6, 2010 – 7:20 am
Conservative Wanderer
It’s stunning how uninformed, arbitrary and gullible you people are.
October 20, 2010 – 4:14 pm
Conservative Wanderer
You people are precisely what’s wrong with this country.
Conservative Wanderer
I swear, you people are beyond help.
August 14, 2010 – 12:39 pm
Conservative Wanderer
But the Constitution is a bit inconvenient for you people right?
July 29, 2010 – 6:18 pm
Conservative Wanderer
It’s gonna be a rough eight-years for you people (i.e. fascists).
July 3, 2010 – 8:46 pm
119. Conservative Wanderer
you people are mind bugling
June 22, 2010 – 2:05 pm
45. Conservative Wanderer
You people are hilarious.
June 13, 2010 – 8:34 am
139.Conservative Wanderer
One day, when you people finally regain your senses…
May 21, 2010 – 2:04 pm
20. Conservative Wanderer
You people sure know how to pick your saviors.
January 30, 2010 – 9:58 am
“You people”. The tag of tags. Persons Galore? What? Where? Me…??? No, I’m as clean as Doris Day!
The Kick Me sign is looking like Mr. President’s poll numbers. Not that that really means anything, right Born sleazits?
Kicked, rolled, used and discarded. Yeah, it’s beginning to sound like one of those CW songs you so despise.
And another reminder or two -
Conservative Wanderer
“You act like I’m trying to hide my identity,…”
Jan 28, 2010 – 3:06 pm
How about some more admissions?
Conservative Wanderer
“35 and 84 are me, and I stand by them. The others are others.”
June 11, 2010 – 3:42 pm
And the classic “you people”.
Conservative Wanderer
“…you people really do make me feel like an intellectual giant.”
Jan 8, 2010 – 5:38 pm
139. Conservative Wanderer
I could lie about it from here to next Thursday, what difference would it make?
Nov 4, 2009 – 8:01 pm
Not much difference Liar, not much.
Whatever.
someone has an internet admirer
One that can’t tell when I am quoting a lefty in order to refute the argument as opposed to making those comments myself.
With admirers like that, I won’t need the lefty trolls after me.
Just More Liar posting and falsifying IDs and names where needed. This old game is coming up more frequently. Expect more.
Wow Really. Desperation on display here. The Modern Liberal Cesspool has the Funhouse Mirror placing its head in the sand and wishing that some things just weren’t the way they are.
For the record, this is the original.
Hey Liar. Hypocrite. What about this?
14. Your Sensei
“You people need some new heroes.”
November 22, 2010 – 7:03 pm
29. Your Sensei
“What the hell is wrong with you people?”
November 22, 2010 – 8:06 am
7. Your Sensei
“Yeah, you people sure now how to pick em… ”
“Go ahead, I’ll wait . . .”
November 9, 2010 – 7:16 am
49. Your Sensei
“And you wonder why we hold you people in such low regard.”
November 6, 2010 – 7:20 am
Wow Really
It’s stunning how uninformed, arbitrary and gullible you people are.
October 20, 2010 – 4:14 pm
Betty Knows
You people are precisely what’s wrong with this country.
Carl
I swear, you people are beyond help.
August 14, 2010 – 12:39 pm
Praetorian
But the Constitution is a bit inconvenient for you people right?
July 29, 2010 – 6:18 pm
Praetorian
It’s gonna be a rough eight-years for you people (i.e. fascists).
July 3, 2010 – 8:46 pm
119. miriam rove
you people are mind bugling
June 22, 2010 – 2:05 pm
45. G Marks
You people are hilarious.
June 13, 2010 – 8:34 am
139. Principal Levine
One day, when you people finally regain your senses…
May 21, 2010 – 2:04 pm
20. sleazits
You people sure know how to pick your saviors.
January 30, 2010 – 9:58 am
“You people”. The tag of tags. Persons Galore? What? Where? Me…??? No, I’m as clean as Doris Day!
The Kick Me sign is looking like Mr. President’s poll numbers. Not that that really means anything, right Born sleazits?
Kicked, rolled, used and discarded. Yeah, it’s beginning to sound like one of those CW songs you so despise.
And another reminder or two -
sleazits
“You act like I’m trying to hide my identity,…”
Jan 28, 2010 – 3:06 pm
How about some more admissions?
sleazits
“35 and 84 are me, and I stand by them. The others are others.”
June 11, 2010 – 3:42 pm
And the classic “you people”.
39. Moho:
“…you people really do make me feel like an intellectual giant.”
Jan 8, 2010 – 5:38 pm
139. Moho
I could lie about it from here to next Thursday, what difference would it make?
Nov 4, 2009 – 8:01 pm
Not much difference Liar, not much.
Whatever.
Mr Lucky….Are you utilizing ‘Betty Knows’ as a co-signer? If so, it would tend to take wind from the sails of your statement, being he/she is a well known liberal ‘troll’ that does the ‘copy and paste’ routine repitiously posting the same ‘talking points’ text, whether they fit the topic or not, under a few different names on most all political orientated blogs.
This old game is coming up more frequently. Expect more – yeah, from you. you should make up yoru mind who your angry at.
Oh gosh, oh my.
Gee whiz , Born Liar sleazits Persons Galore, is this Modern Liberal Sympathy Tour all you have. Damn, Beyond the Valley of the Used, Discarded, Beaten, Feel Sorry for Me Modern Liberal Dolls. It’s getting very touchy. Stop it! Don’t! I’ll tell! Stop pulling my Kick Me sign!
Well, well, isn’t this just sweet? Born Liar sleazits Persons Galore bends the Funhouse Mirror and “Lookie Here” at what pops out. A ‘Betty Knows’ fan and another BC. Such concern is touching.
“…under a few different names…” Yes, and what would this amount to? Maybe… lying? No, of course not. Never. Not for Persons Galore. That’s a Speeeeccccial One. Mr. President understands. Flush!
There is plenty of room in the Modern Liberal Cesspool. Jump right in! Splash!
The Kick Me sign loves attention. Clang! Wow, that put a smile on your ass. Poor thing.
Whatever.
I’ve read this several times…all see are disjointed comments without context….
none of them alone is particularly intersting, offensive, damning or enlightening.
Together they make as much sense as every OTHER line of text from 10 different kitchen appliance instruction manuals randomly joined together.
That they are supposedly from another poster is equally meaningless.
What, other than your randomly confused and incoherent mental state, are you trying to communicate to the rest of us?
That post has to be a joke. Surely. But I’m looking for hints and I’m not finding any …
North korea is most definitely a greed-based society. The leadership is very greedy indeed. The greed doesn’t spread around much, though.
Right, because an impoverished society that resembles a prison camp is infinitely preferable to fast food, soft drinks and cheap knick-knacks.
haha…keep on believing that. Personally, I’d recommend Obama consider sending an armada of cruise missiles, nuclear tipped, towards the “people’s republic” and solve this issue once and for all.
Kim Jong Il!? !!??
is that you posting as Yobbin???
damn straight!!
Wait, what?
So a brutal dictatorship is okay as long as American “plutocrats” aren’t doing it. I believe the point of resisting evil rich people is so your country can stay free, democratic, and prosperous — which North Korea demonstrably isn’t. If it was run by eeeeevil American rich people but remained exactly the way it is now, you’d be howling from the rooftops about imperialist Nazi greed or something.
As is normal for leftists, autocracy is the only acceptable kind of society, since making money is “greed.”
Fixed it for ya.
#1 from 11B40….
….”Secondarily, the South should develop the capability to make thing go bump in the North Korean night.”
I have every confidence that the South has more than enough right now to have things come crashing down at any time of the South’s choosing. The question seems (…and a very large “seems” it is indeed..) to be what is the tipping point needed for the South to act in a preemptive manner, decisively. Surely those artillery positions in those caves threatening Seoul are known to the South Koreans. Those short miles separating the DMZ from Seoul make the North’s gun-concealing caves just as vulnerable to crushing collapse as the South’s capitol, albeit with a fraction of the population and symbolism.
This is not the same as 1950.
Moreover,doesn’t anyone find it ironic that this latest North Korean provocation/attack is adjacent to the area of that famous Inchon amphibious landing of MacArthur’s?
Surely those artillery positions in those caves threatening Seoul are known to the South Koreans. Those short miles separating the DMZ from Seoul make the North’s gun-concealing caves just as vulnerable to crushing collapse as the South’s capitol, albeit with a fraction of the population and symbolism.
I sincerely hope that the combined expertise of the South Korean forces and their UN allies has figured out a solution to those caves. Maybe some kind of gas attack that would quickly overcome the North Koreans that would fire that artillery or a way to jam the “go” signal from Kim Jong Il. Otherwise, all that artillery is going to do a LOT of damage to Seoul – which apparently has a population of close to 25 million people! – before it is suppressed.
It’s a real shame that the South Koreans didn’t relocate their capitol after 1953 to somewhere that was not in artillery range of the North. As I understand it, Seoul was largely destroyed during the Korean War so it wouldn’t have been completely impossible to imagine relocating the capitol at that time. Now, of course, it would be ridiculously hard since the city has grown enormously.
Actually, under the last administration there WAS a proposal to relocate a number of government ministries to central South Korea, out of artillery range. It never got anywhere politically. The problem is that Koreans all think living in Seoul increases their status; Seoul has all the best schools; etc. So nobody wants to leave, in spite of the risk – there’s an attitude of “move away from Seoul? OK, you first!”
I suppose it’s a sort of gambling: people live in Seoul, within artillery range of the North Koreans, and just figure it probably won’t happen to them. Living in an earthquake zone or an active volcano probably involves a very similar outlook….
What China fears is millions of famished N Korean peasants flooding across its common border with N Korea. This would be a real disaster for China.
It should be obvious that Kim Jung Il is insane, and could not care less for those to whom he dictates. For his son to be accepted as the new “Dear Leader”, the N Korean populace needs to be convinced that S Korea and the US are their mortal enemies. Only a large attack by US forces will accomplish that, as the S Koreans aren’t about to mount an offensive attack.
Kim Jung Il desires a large offensive attack by US forces, and so he will realize that desire, and will keep on provoking war until it happens.
…..”What China fears is millions of famished N Korean peasants flooding across its common border with N Korea. This would be a real disaster for China.”
Perhaps we could say at that time that they’ve (the Chinese) brought it on themselves by being a bit too clever.
“What China fears is millions of famished N Korean peasants flooding across its common border with N Korea. This would be a real disaster for China.”
I don’t buy this line of reasoning at all.
Why would liberated NoKos seek refuge in China?
That would be like liberated Ossies all absquatulating to the Soviet Union when the Berlin Wall came down.
Does. Not. Compute.
Koreans are a peculiar lot, but I don’t think they’re all THAT weird.
I suspect that what China fears is One Free Korea sextending all the way up to its southern border.
No Chinaman in his right mind wants to escape INTO North Korea, but if North Korea was simply “Korea”, and run along whatever flavor of democratic free market capitalism passes for governance out of Seoul these days, then Beijing might have an emigration problem.
Damn John Stewart Service and the subversive communist China Hands to deepest darkest Hell, where their souls may roast forever.
Had Mao lost the Civil War, we likely wouldn’t be having this discussion, (and there would be 50,000 American troops who would not have needed to die if we’d supported Chiang Kai-Shek and the KMT).
“Bilgeman
“What China fears is millions of famished N Korean peasants flooding across its common border with N Korea. This would be a real disaster for China.”
I don’t buy this line of reasoning at all.
Why would liberated NoKos seek refuge in China?”
Looking at a map, I’d say they’d seek refuge there simply because they can. They aren’t going east to cross the Sea of Japan. They won’t travel South because the DMZ is full of land mines and NoKo artillery shells targeting that area. So the easiest place is west into China. Haven’t many NoKos have escaped there already?
Another writer asked why should China with a population of 1 billion care about an influx of 25 million people. The answer is no county wants 25 million people coming across their border ALL AT ONCE. It tends to overwhelm the local governments, and food supplies, and port-o-potties.
This topic interests me because over the years North Korea has a way of dominating the news and then going quiet. I hope I’m right when I say I think this problem will solve itself once again.
“Why would liberated NoKos seek refuge in China?” – bilgeman
“Looking at a map…” – Mr. Freeze
_____________________________________________________________
Heh. bilgeman, Mr. Freeze has a powerful point here. Unless the NorKo ninnies can swim REALLY, REALLY well, they have exactly zero choices about where to run to. The DMZ is now the Death March Zone — pretty sure you can’t walk through it — and the only other adjacent border is China’s, except for a short stretch with Russia which requires crossing the Duman River right at the Sea of Japan.
The choices are China, a minefield, drown, or stay put.
Gents;
The operative word in my comment was “liberated”. This means no more Kim dynasty and it’s uniformed goon squads to sit upon those wretched peoples’ heads, and it implies that an outside power has arranged that happy turn of events.
If someone blows out the Kims and liberates the NoKo people, I would presume that the anti-personnel infrastructure of the DMZ would be removed, (at least in some places), at the least as an avenue for the most likely liberators’ weapons and logistics to roll through.
Now, if the liberators happened to be Our Pals the Chinese,(and that COULD happen though not likely), then certainly, the NoKos would beat feet west and north into Chinese territory.
I kinda doubt that the Japanese would liberate anyone, and I am doubly certain that few up in that ‘hood would welcome their attempts at it.
So that kinda leaves their Southern cousins to effect their jailbreak doesn’t it?
You’re exactly right: China is pretty much the only place a North Korean can go. The vast majority of North Korea’s northern border is with China. There is a very short stretch of border with Russia. North Korea’s southern border is massively militarized and it must be virtually impossible to sneak across it. The eastern border is the Yellow Sea and the western border is the Pacific Ocean, both of which would require boats. I expect that the North Korean authorities are very vigilant about who takes boats out and the North Korean Navy must be equally vigilant about boats in their waters.
I’ve read several accounts of North Koreans who have crossed the border with China and tried to make a life there. There are ethnic Korean communities in that part of China and some North Koreans have lived there secretly but there are serious risks from informers who will turn them in to the Chinese. The Chinese authorities don’t want them the North Koreans there and frequently make sweeps to deport them back to North Korea, where they face lengthy terms in the gulag at best.
Some North Koreans manage to find help in China from sympathetic individuals and groups and manage to make their way to China’s border with Thailand where they are able to cross into Thailand and then travel on to South Korea. South Korea has a program to integrate the North Koreans after they have been carefully vetted to ensure they are not spies.
Bilgeman….
You’re just raised a mostly unsung aspect of the Cold War in China. You should visit our website:
airdashamericadotorg
Correction:
…..” Had Mao lost the Civil War, we likely wouldn’t be having this discussion, (and there would be 50,000 American troops who would not have needed to die if we’d supported Chiang Kai-Shek and the KMT)…..”
Add: Note particularly the Civil Air Transport/Air America of General Claire Chennault.
CF: airdashamericadotorg
…….for some very interesting history.
“absquatulating” is a word used only when ideas are not to be found.
Well, Your Sensei, you would be the recognized PJM expert on not finding ideas…and thus are you refudiated.
‘your sensei’ is a comment only to be read…
How come it is afraid to post a Comment under Roger Simon? You don’t have to fear the Moderators (or lack thereof) there, but Roger’s own rebuttal.
Here’s a shocker. I DO post there. he won’t publish. once again, the things you think you know, the things that drive your sarcastic elitism, prove to be utterly false.
0 for 3, boys. Try again next time when you have an idea to be found. And the snare snaps shut again!
“And the snare snaps shut again!”
Silly, silly, and lameness with that special Liar touch.
Was there a previous time of silly snareisms snapping shut rap vomiting forth from Born Liar sleazits Persons Galore?
Need a reminder Liar? Oh yes, there is that blues letter “L” ass branded under the Kick Me sign. Anyway –
sleazits
“And the snare snaps shut . . .”
“Hail Rush! Go Sarah!”
June 11, 2010 – 11:32 pm
And the “Hail Rush! Go Sarah!”? What ever happened to that? No, still here, in a different form. That Sarah thing you got going is nearly D-White level. Such a hateful fascination. But then again what would one expect from a Born Liar running in Freudian Dora mode? Good of you to follow up on that too. Paying too much attention, Now?
Can’t get away from it, can you Liar. The Liar pace has become more hysterical, the Born Liar sleazits Persons Galore comments are as desperate as a used and discarded Mr. President… supporter.
Kicked, used, rolled, disdained, no where to go, Funhouse Mirror very full of rage, and here you are – still – just a common Liar. Morality is but what a Liar creates, as in its own image.
Where the hell is that Basted Beaten Run Off Turkey Now and Then? Clang!
The Kick Me sign is really making the rounds. Why is that? Clang!
Come back soon. As? Madonna Wigglebotten? Nolin? Maiden name? Liar…
Whatever.
South Korea is a modern western country with a quite capable military of its own. Frankly they don’t need US to hold the Norks back. The South has enough military capability to finish the North in a matter of days, if not hours. For the most part Kim’s military would fare no better against a determined South Korean attack than Saddam’s did under our US military “shock and awe”. There are two wild cards in this scenario. 1. the Norks have at least some kind of nuclear device (probably not a weapon in the way we think of it), 2. the Norks have literally thousands of long range artillery tubes within range of the South Korean city of Seoul which is a modern sprawling metropolis reaching right up to the edge of the DMZ. In neither case are these weapons a serious impediment to a swift South Korean victory.
Although the war between the Korean states would be short and one sided it would result in allot of wrecked South Korean real estate and not a few casualties of the “collateral damage” type.
South Korea isn’t a weak third world klingon who needs Uncle Sam’s help to fight this war except to keep Russia, Japan, and China on the sidelines while the South rolls up the north and begins the long and difficult task of providing relief and reconstruction in the North.
I seriously doubt our fearless leader aka: Barry Sotero/Barrack Hussien Obama or whatever is really on his passport these days will provide that kind of help nor encourage the South to end the stalemate once and for all time. Rather we will encourage the status-quo where millions of North Koreans are starving to death while the North exports its weapons of mass destruction to other despots and crack-pots.
In short, let the South Koreans handle this. The sooner the better. If they decide to allow the insanity to continue it’s okay by me. 50+ years of US protection is more than enough. Time to draw down US forces in Korea since we are no longer required to protect the South and we have plenty of assets in the region to counter balance other unsavory characters with mal intentions.
South Korea is a modern western country with a quite capable military of its own. Frankly they don’t need US to hold the Norks back. The South has enough military capability to finish the North in a matter of days, if not hours. For the most part Kim’s military would fare no better against a determined South Korean attack than Saddam’s did under our US military “shock and awe”.
With what military? We need to remember here that most western countries, including South Korea, have weak, untested militaries. I’d bet on South Korea winning, but even with a 2 to 1 population advantage and much greater wealth, it’d probably take them years to beat North Korea definitively (assuming no one interfered by that point).
Consider how many countries of South Korea’s size and wealth have actually fought wars solely against other countries with significant militaries. I can think of only two such countries, Israel (in various Middle East wars through to the present) and the UK (Falkland Islands in 1982). Israel is an unusual case since it both was in an unusually hostile military situation (still has many belligerent neighbors) and massive military support from the US and Europe.
The UK is more interesting because we not only have a major war, but both they and South Korea participated in two major wars in the past twenty years, the Persian Gulf War and the Iraqi Invasion. Thus, we have some means to compare them. The UK sent similar numbers in each war, roughly 45,000 troops. In comparison, the South Korean contingents numbered a bit over 300 in the Persian Gulf War and 3,600 at peak in the occupation of Iraq.
The roles of these forces were also different. The UK military was directly on the front lines in both wars, while the SK military primarily
provided health services and rebuilt infrastructure (Wikipedia claims the South Koreans suffered no casualties from combat and killed no one in combat).
While I don’t think it reasonable to cast aspersions on South Korea for its role (they had rather weak national interests in the war so their role was actually rather generous, I think), it does mean that the UK military both demonstrated its military competence and gained further combat experience in each war while the South Korean military hasn’t done so since the end of the Korean War.
My view is that such militaries, that haven’t seen significant warfare in more than half a century, are more likely to make rookie mistakes in the beginning of a war, such as overestimating their capabilities while underestimating their foes, messing up logistics and coordination, and having weak commanders in key positions. Further, they don’t have significant production of military hardware. Any losses or military consumables (like ammunition) will most likely need to be imported until local industry (whatever is out of range of North Korean attacks) can switch over to supply it.
A possibly similar example was the Iraq-Iran war of the 80s. A common problem to both sides was lack of ability to follow through on attacks due to poor logistics and casualties. I simply don’t think South Korea has the logistics to support a lightning campaign, just as these two countries didn’t. Meaning that victory would probably be hard earned and slow moving with opportunities between pushes for NK forces to regroup.
The Norks don’t have years to fight a war; they have a few weeks at most. Anything more and they have total logistical collapse. As Napoleon said, an army fights on its stomach. Keep the pressure up and bide your time until the regime collapses on itself.
What China fears is millions of famished N Korean peasants flooding across its common border with N Korea. This would be a real disaster for China.
I’ve heard that concern expressed by people who seem to know what they’re talking about but I have to wonder just how true that really is. After all, there are only 23 million people in North Korean and something like 1.4 BILLION in China. China must see its population grow by more than 23 million every single year! So even if a large proportion of those 23 million North Koreans actually crossed the border as refugees, I have the feeling that China could handle it. I’m sure it would be chaotic and challenging and there would be some localized chaos but I expect it would be manageable.
If China wants to prevent a flood of North Koreans crossing the border, they have a strong incentive in making the North Koreans reform their system. The same market reforms that are revitalizing China could potentially be sold to a North Korean regime, although it would probably have to be a regime that wasn’t led by Kim Jung Il or his descendents.
It should be obvious that Kim Jung Il is insane….
I’ve heard that theory but there seem to be a similar number of people who believe that he is “crazy like a fox”, not insane. Both points of view seem to have some merit. But I certainly agree that he doesn’t care one iota for his people, just for his own power.
Kim Jung Il desires a large offensive attack by US forces, and so he will realize that desire, and will keep on provoking war until it happens.
That’s an interesting theory. I assume you base that on his supposed insanity and are suggesting that he simply has a death wish? While I would be extremely glad to see the end of Kim Jung Il and his regime, I wonder if he actually thinks he can win a war with the US? If he is actually “crazy like a fox” rather than insane, he may even have some kind of plan that he thinks will work, perhaps involving some kind of alliance with China and/or attacks on Japan or other neighbours.
Or maybe he really just wants to “burn out” rather than “fade away” – in the words of the Neil Young song – and do as much damage to his South Korean and American enemies as he can on the way out and damn the consequences. Chairman Mao had no difficulty contemplating a global nuclear war that killed a third or even half of all human beings on earth. Perhaps Kim Jung Il feels the same….
I wonder if refraining from an attack is perhaps the best way for South Korea and America to proceed. If Kim Jung Il really is insane and dying, his successor may prove far more reasonable. Apparently, his sons were educated in Switzerland so perhaps they have acquired a certain respect for capitalism and freedom and a far less insular view than Kim Jung Il experienced himself?
Your last paragraph is wishful thinking. The NK regime has proven it wrong in the past.
Good point… he has beat us on the chess board for the last 20 years… even if only in his eyes.
North Korea is ruled by Neo-savages.
Worse than real savages, who could at least plead ignorance.
The New Ruler of the DPRK must establish his legitimacy with an act of blood. The people of South Korea are thus in the same position as the people of Texcoco or the Mixtecs under the old Aztec Empire of Mexico. From time to time a few of them will be demanded as human sacrifices, to cement the legitimacy of their overlords.
And do I err in calling North Korea the overlord in this situation?
Consider: for all that South Korea has twice the population of the North, and is easily fifty times as rich and prosperous; despite that fact that the USA is , on paper, infinitely stronger than this starveling cannibal kingdom- the plain fact is, the North is calling the shots here.
WE react to what THEY say and do- weakly and with much publicized soul-searching and trepidation. We search for signals in what they say and don’t say. And no matter how preposterous, no matter how outrageous, mean, stupid, thuggish, criminal , vicious, or just plain f***ed up the actions and pronouncements from Pyongyang may be, the stewards of the Dear Leader can always, always count on some self-appointed Voice of Reason and of Higher Thinking on our side, to pose as an “ honest broker” between the Fire Department and the fire.
Want to know the aims and goals of the DPRK? Just get Netflix to send or stream “ Triumph of the Will”. The lesson is plainly written for all who will deign to see.
Forget about NK and the midget. Let’s blame China directly. Concentrate our efforts of creating havoc on the Chinese. Naval Blockades, forced confrontations. A little push a little shove here and there. Right now the ONLY advantage over the Chinese is military might. The only thing the Chinese respect is military might. We see call the Midget and RAISE it to ALL-IN. Let’s see how the normally placid Chinese eyes widen astronomically. A state of war? No trade. No Chinese exports. No interest payments. Oh I’m sorry did you say your want peace? Our economy is in shambles and heading south. The Chinese is as responsible as any other reason. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Please stop being naive the Chinese play us for saps. It’s time we give them some payback.
I have a great idea to solve this NK/CHICOMM problem. Make a video of a few NK/CHICOMM officers burning and spiting on the Koran, and telling each other how they hate A-rabs. Then, post it on youtube.
Stand back, and watch the physops. I have other ideas, but if I tell you, I would have to… Well, you know.
Karl Hallowell:
With what military? We need to remember here that most western countries, including South Korea, have weak, untested militaries.
You might want to talk to US marines or other personnel who have trained with or worked along side the ROK forces. The ROK military is VERY well respected for its modern weapons, training, and strict discipline (they still shoot soldier that fall asleep on guard duty). ROK of 2010 is not the military force that crumbled under the onslaught of the Norks in 1950.
You might want to talk to US marines or other personnel who have trained with or worked along side the ROK forces. The ROK military is VERY well respected for its modern weapons, training, and strict discipline (they still shoot soldier that fall asleep on guard duty). ROK of 2010 is not the military force that crumbled under the onslaught of the Norks in 1950.
That’s nice, but those aren’t sufficient qualities to knock over North Korea in “days, if not hours”.
Superior weapons in the hands of well trained, well led troops has been a formula for overwhelming victory since man has been so much as hurling rocks and spears at each other.
ROK Marines kick ass….they are the ONLY allied forces I felt safe with….the Brits and Aussies were much more chummy, we drank and caroused like brothers, whereas the ROK’s were too strict and stiff to actually enjoy actually being with.
But when it cane to “who do YOU trust to fight with” its a slam dunk, no contest, not even close…..I didnt get to work with too many Isralie’s so I cannot comment on them, but all the NATO forces I worked with (1980′s to 2000, pre-9/11) ) were pretty lame when it came to discipline…no sense of urgency with them.
Allow me to finish the statement started above.
“North Korea is predictable. It will continue to kill.” And noone will do jack squat about it because NORK’s big buddy China is only concerned with protecting the status quo there.
In other words NK has a blank check to kill indefinitely as long as they are just killing South Koreans. China will only act if they are threatened. They are not, nor will they ever be.
What a happy thought, huh?
So why did the North start shelling? Well in my opinion, its the succession going on in the north. Jong Il needs the military elite to support his third son claim. A similar bunch of saber shaking occurred when Jong Il took over for the eternal living daddy.
Even a peaceful collapse would be catastrophic for the surrounding countries. No one can absorb the massive number of refugees that will occur. Even if the North made a full launch of all its forces, its doubtful its army could function for more than a few hours before running out of fuel. At best it could shell the crap out of the South but even then, its doubtful their guns would remain functional for long.
Per the South’s ability to defend themselves…Granted its been a while since they had a full on conflict, but I wouldn’t sleep on them. Unlike the Northern soldiers, they won’t be in for a culture shock when they hit enemy territory.
Do not confuse this sorry lot for the ROK military:
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/015441.html
Here here
Is there a measured response that would make a difference from all the super powers Russia china and us. bet they would think twice if china put 100 million men on there border and told them if your don’t stop we will crash your party
Maybe some B1 Bomber flights over Pyongyang would get their attention? No bombs need be dropped or even carried (although I would probably not tell them one way or the other). Just let the North Korean leadership wonder if this is going to be their very last day on Earth….
What would Reagan do?
It has ceased to amaze me that any two experts on the DPRK will have diametric judgments after each act of barbarism which they commit. What does amaze me is China. She seems stuck in a 1953 mind set, in spite of three centuries of advancement by their nation, in the interim. They supply some 90% of the vital necessities to NK, and surely they would dislike a Yalu river border with South Korea. Fear would be too strong of a word, for this giant. But to maintain the status quo, they have permitted an uncontrolled killer to acquire the bomb, and possibly a delivery system. Thus China must conclude, that they can believe Kim Jong Il: if it explodes somewhere, they will not be the target, or be effected by the aftermath. This is absurd. NK would quickly be conquered, or China would again face the dilemma to come to its aid, or see a flood of starving refugees flood their border.
The sole solution to this lethal instability is a real five party talk, among NK’s neighbors and the US. A civil collapse, similar to the Marshall Plan, or the USSR in 1991, is the best alternative to almost certain nuclear war. If nuclear war can be avoided, on China’s border, how can this be accomplished? What comes out the other side? Basically, what does China really want? A nuclear armed NK is a catastrophe waiting to happen. Is real cooperation with the US et al, worse than living with the certain NK disaster. She must decide, soon.
During the Korean War, both the US and South Korea tried to avoid escalation whenever possible. This was because, though Red China, that penultimate duchess of deception (sorry, Hettie!), denied any involvement in the war, the fact was that it was supporting the North with supplies and munitions, and had even threatened to send its own troops under certain conditions. Thus the war was not fought as strongly as it could have been. The same was true in Viet Nam, though this time the Communist giant involved was Russia. Not only was our President being fooled by the liberal media (at the time, there were no other information sources) into thinking that we were being defeated in every battle, but he was being pressured by the peaceniks on the home front, peaceniks who were being led by card-carrying Communists, a fact which is well documented, despite the epithet of paranoia hurled at us by those very Communists. If we were seeing “Commies under the bed,” it’s because THEY WERE THERE, and they still are.
Once again today, China denies supporting the North. It even goes so far as to publicly condemn some of Kim’s actions. But behind the scenes, I’m sure Kim still has China’s support, and Lee knows this. THAT is why the South offers little more than strong words when the North attacks. The North wants war; a “short, victorious war” to stir their people to patriotism and to boost their bankrupt economy. Perhaps the South is wiser than we know in denying them their wish.
Headline news has video of South Korean soldiers, out of uniform, angrily protesting the inaction of their government over another attack by the inbred North Korean savages. Always bet on the SoKos to do either nothing or give shiny objects to the NorKos when threatened, but even so, I wouldn’t want to be in Seoul right now.
MADE IN THE USA????
http://www.iacenter.org/korea/korea112410/
Korea ‘crisis’ made in Washington
Huge U.S.-south Korean military maneuvers were the real provocation
By Deirdre Griswold
Nov 23, 2010
When a “crisis” regarding Korea suddenly appears in the U.S. corporate media, their take is always that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (socialist north Korea) has done something totally irrational to cause it.
They totally disregard the facts of what happened and, of equal
importance, what led up to it.
Yes, the DPRK shelled the island of Yeonpyeong on Nov. 23. According to south Korean officials, two of their soldiers were killed. But the
shelling occurred at 2:34 p.m. Korean time. What had happened earlier?
Some 70,000 south Korean military personnel had been mobilized for war “exercises” right off the sea borderline between the north and the south — which is disputed territory. The south Koreans admit to having fired shells into waters that the DPRK considers its territory at 1:00 p.m. — more than an hour before the north’s response.
If south Korea, and its huge sponsor, the U.S., had wanted to avoid
confrontation with the DPRK, would they have fired shells into a
disputed area? Especially since the DPRK had already declared that the military maneuvers were “simulating an invasion of the north”?
The provocation comes from the U.S. and the right-wing south Korean
regime, not the DPRK.
Aside from outing you as a Red fascist slut, cutting and pasting from the pig Ramsey Clark’s propaganda center is worthless; we already knew that the wrinkled ape was lying scum.
Might want to wipe your face – Stalin’s seed is dripping down your chin
…and the rational for torpedoing soko’s ship? Oh yeah… forgot, Bush
We don’t need to be conducting military drills within 2 miles of the North Korean mainland. I’ll bet the North Koreans are not sleeping very well knowing that an American Aircraft Carrier Battle Group is plying the waters off their coast either. They’re so paranoid they could do anything. Everyone needs to just kick back and let Kim keep his little prison camp of a country. I’m sure he thinks he’s doing the right thing for his people sticking to their communist ideals, as outmoded as they might seem. I’ll bet the Norks don’t have any Islamo-fascist creeps blowing things up
America’s meddling around where they don’t belong created this situation and demonizing N. Kor. only made it worse, creating an Al Sharpton with a nuclear reactor who extorts for income. Were it not for America’s continued demonization of the north that otherwise non-entity would have reunited with the South long ago. America seems to have a talent for taking polities that are emphatically not players and making them matter to the point of invasion or enemy status. US foreign policy has had not one lick of creativity or brain power since WWII. Let backwaters be backwaters and let them rattle swords or whatever. The entirety of the middle east is a backwater and we have fed their egos and made them players. If all the money sunk into that area of the world went to researching solar power or superconducters, we might be off of oil and let these people’s technology be at the level where they fly paper airplanes into Leggo buildings and dream of the 9th century. They can’t make ball point pens and we can’t out maneuver them? C’mon.
Okay, I’ll bite: When you refer to US demonization of the Kims in particular and North Korea more generally, and to the reunification of the Koreas in the absence of this demonization, does your time frame for all this begin pre-armistice? I ask vis a vis your comment that “US foreign policy has had not one lick of creativity or brain power since WWII”.
In my opinion, involving ourselves in Korea was a mistake. Had we not, Korea would be a communist or capitalist backwater with no potential for headlines, good or bad. Hands off is good policy.
Were it not for America’s continued demonization of the north that otherwise non-entity would have reunited with the South long ago.
[...]
US foreign policy has had not one lick of creativity or brain power since WWII.
Foreign policy isn’t an arts and crafts project. Nor does it have vast miraculous powers to cure the world’s ills. There’s no foreign policy outside of a successful invasion or insurrection that would have deposed the current regime of North Korea. Then you couple that conceit with a bizarre complaint about “creativity” and “brain power”, I really don’t think you have any understanding of the limits of foreign policy.
As I see it, foreign policy with North Korea has worked. There’s been no major wars. And that’s how low your standards should be given who’s in charge of North Korea.
How smart is it to not understand classic invasion routes or lack of them in history as regards Korea/China and Vietnam/China? We should have not have been involved in either case. Our foreign policy would be a lot smarter if we did indeed acknowledge that we cannot in fact fix everything. We’ve tried bombing people into democracy and it has failed except in the instances of total war. US foreign policy in N. Kor. has been an utter failure as we have a country that has absolutely no importance in the world demonized to the point where they not only have felt compelled to use their meager resources to acquire nuclear tech but are willing to give it to anyone who will discomfit the US including terrorists. Were it not for the US that area of the world would be a sleepy backwater instead of a place that sucks up American treasure and resources.
South Koreans have been biting the hand that feeds for years now. Perhaps it is about time to openly discuss simply laying them at the mercy of the Norks. It would be such a relief for our military system
The South Koreans have nothing of value to offer us – the relationship is highly unbalanced and disproportionate; microwave Ramen noodles and undershirts in exchange for our protection simply doesn’t cut it anymore.
nothing of value?
well, if you were governing california at the moment i would see how you think that way—
s korea has a ton of goods that americans use and the profits from entering in proper trade would basically make california solvent again– all we would have to do is, basically, open our ports and the billions would start to flow again— free trade would win the day and the threat of california redshifting has statists around the world concerned (if a lib can’t win california then their stranglehold on the 200 some electorals are vanquished)–we cant have that now–
koreans make fuel efficient cars cheaper and faster than obama can squeeze a chevy dolt out of his puckered arse…
americans gobble up kia’s and hyundai’s and obama punishes americans (for not buying said “dolts”) by failing to get the trade agreement worked out…
if we had proper capitalistic instincts we would, again, produce goods the world would clamor over to buy and even if other countries could produce things cheaper our goods’ quality would be the envy of the world–again…
Those things you cite come from commerce with South Korea, which presumably does not require us maintaining a babysitter force there in perpetuity. We (literally) cannot afford to continue subsidizing all these other countries’ defense budgets for them.
That gives me an idea- why don’t we become a real empire? Our allies will retain their sovereignty and their free elections, but our continued provisions for their defense will be contingent upon them paying us tribute. No threats- if they don’t want to pay, we’ll just pack up and go home. We can’t balance the budget on tribute, but it would sure put a dent in our deficit, and it would be consistent with the principle of free trade- Americans are the best warriors on the planet, and it is more economical for our allies to pay us for the privilege of being defended by us than it is for them to support their own military.
Do the South Koreans support us anywhere in the world today with troops? Not a few engineers and MP’s–troops?
Why is it in our interest to pay for the defense of a place that floods our markets with cheap goods, puts our people out of work, and takes profits back to South Korea?
Why is it our interest to pay to defend a place that cannot and will not defend itself without our looming presence there, which must be an irritant to china as China’s presence in Mexico would be to us?
Given that almost 50% of the south koreans are afraid to do anything to North Korea and seek to send it aid at every opportunity, what on earth are we doing with troops there when we are borrowing billions–with a b–from China?
What most if not all of the people here,and evidently the writer of this article are either not aware of or refuse to state is that THE SOUTH FIRED FIRST. While they did not fire specifically at Northern targets,they did fire at an area that is and has been in dispute. So please stop saying that this was all an act of Northern aggression…. I wouldn’t be surprised if OBAMA AND THE SOUTH planned this whole thing out,since they supposedly had “war games”planned just a couple days later.
Yes, and the Poles started WWII when they attacked that German radio station too.
You got proof of that? And not from Ramsey Clark’s or any other lefty website?
THE SOUTH FIRED FIRST.
There’s always an excuse. Given that the South didn’t fire at North Korea, the excuse is invalid. As expected.
Being both sides ‘test’ fire artillery into open waters, who’s to say whom really fired first? How far back do we go to say ‘fired first’? Do we include the torpedoing, sinking and death of 46 soko sailers? One thing we do know .. noko did in fact fire on soko civilians and thusly violated the treaty.
“More South Koreans Will Die”
I guarantee it. The baseline mortality rate for south korea is about 290,000 people a year (5.94 / 1000 pa). Nearly 800 people die in south korea every day. That’s EVERY day. You’re talking about risking a nuclear conflict (although I personally doubt it’d come to that) over 4 people. Get your priorities in order. Or at least consider the principle “first do no harm”
This attack was a crappy thing to happen. But if you’re going to start a conflict that will probably kill goodness knows how many thousands and lead to some truly spectacular security and stability problems in china and the korean peninsula that we’ll be gluing back together for the next decade, you probably want it to be over something a bit bigger than this.
I reckon we should let the grown-ups handle this one. At the very least, I think we should listen to what the south koreans want. I don’t think they’re all entirely lily-white when it comes to the north (there’s apparently a bit of money to be made), but they’re the ones who’d be asked to pick up arms against their own families.
That said, I do think the world should call their bluff a bit more. They’ve got just as much to lose as the south/china/japan does. Possibly even more. Unfortunately that means that china needs to step up and properly seal that northern border. Stop kim from getting his mclaren f1 serviced and we might see a change in attitude.
Usually, Never comment here.
Simply, I would be out of my depth.
Commenters here seem much smarter than I.
And too intimidating.
But reading through the above Blog entry, I still cannot find what type of response you suggest to best solve the NK conundrum/travesty/threat.
Yes. I know. We must wait for our hamburger on Monday!
If one were to take an extreme hard line, then perhaps this might prove disastrous. If one does relatively little, then this has already proven disastrous.
But my suggestion is to keep ones eye on the ball!
And this is to keep ones eye on Red China.
Because, in truth, DPRK Rule over North Korea, compared to Red China Rule over the Mainland, is like the tiny little dirty black toenail of the greatest drunken corrupt bully today known on our planet.
Somehow, someway, we must find the solution to bring North Korean people into the fold of democratic society. To be unified with South Korea. Which will, in turn bolster “our” position in East Asia. To think about anything less, as our goal, is fruitless and not long-term thinking.
No matter how fine it is to temporarily lord it over the Red Chicoms, by having the Washington steaming up their Wazoo, still this is not long-term thinking or strategy.
Still.
We love it.
Oh, thank you! I, however, am the low point of the bell curve, but I know it when I hear it and you said it!
dgh mother of J US ARMY
escape velocity is also IMO correct.
dgh,
You are obviously in Korea or in Asia, as we speak. (Or work the night shift, or are an early riser.)
Reunification of the North and South is the only option for a true good solution, after 60 years of failure.
The single deciding question might be: Will Red China get out of our way? If we choose to follow this good and only path of reunification.
You say you have a 22 year old in this fight.
All the more reason for us to hope that Red China will back off soon. And judging from recent leaks on WikiLeaks, maybe this is some indication that Red China is getting tired of supporting the North.
But I think the Red Chinese have their hands completely full with the problems in their own screwed up society.
And so should now be more willing to drop this HOT North Potato.
If as you say, one in your family is now serving in Korea. Hope he/she enjoys, relishes and remembers the experience. I love Korea.
There are many who might be very envious of being in South Korea at this time. Or any time.
Reunification is the thing!
The only final solution in the long-term.
Good Luck. IMHO, the missiles will not fly as a result of sudden miscalculation. In North/South Korea.
But I very much do agree with what, perhaps, Gordon Chang hints at. That we are slowly, inexorably heading towards war in East Asia.
Just due to the immense forces now in play….In Red China.
(I do not wish to put words in this good horse’s mouth. But my honest opinion is that Mr. Chang has a more accurate, reality bound ‘view’ of Red China. Than most do.)
And. Most of us habitually just comment on/read blogs from blog posters we like. The ones who are logical and make sense. Most commenters here probably do agree, pretty much, with Mr. Chang’s take on Red China.
And I hope you do, too.
………
This is Mr. Dumas in Asia,
Over and Out.
For now.
Islam is predictable as well.
Evil is predictable. The devil is in the details.
What does Obama care? He’s too busy “transforming” America.