More 9/12 Crowd Data: Yeah, It Was Big
On Monday, PJM published my piece titled “March on Washington: How Big Was the Crowd.” It contained several estimates of the actual number of people who attended the mach on the Capitol on September 12.
The legacy media seems to have converged on an estimate of 60,000 to 70,000 people. This appears to be sourced to the D.C. Fire Department, although as several people have pointed out, no one seems to recall any other estimates coming from the D.C. Fire Department. On investigation, it turns out to be Pete Piringer, public affairs officer for the D.C. Fire and Emergency Department, as quoted at Politifact:
[Piringer] said the local government no longer provides official crowd estimates because they can become politicized. But the day of the rally, Piringer unofficially told one reporter that he thought between 60,000 and 75,000 people had shown up.
“It was in no way an official estimate,” he said.
We asked Piringer whether there were enough protesters to fill the National Mall, as depicted in the photograph.
“It was an impressive crowd,” he said. But after marching down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol, the crowd “only filled the Capitol grounds, maybe up to Third Street,” he said.
Emphasis mine. Remember those points: “in no way an official estimate” and “filled the Capitol grounds, maybe up to Third Street.”
Some others:
- The Daily Mail first reported 2 million, then scaled it back to 1.2 million.
- Barbara Espinosa reported that actual traffic counters from the march organizers reported about 450,000 crossing Pennsylvania at 11th after about an hour of the march, and nearly 1.5 million total.
- There was also the time-lapse photoset from the traffic camera over the Freedom Plaza, which is where 14th St NW crosses Pennsylvania Avenue at E street.
- Our own estimate of more than 850,000.
- The Noble and Ancient Order of the Gormogons, with an estimate of about 1 million.
- Another estimate by Henry Vanderbilt, reported at Transterrestrial Musings. Using two different methods, Vanderbilt arrived at one estimate of up to 320,000 in the march down Pennsylvania alone, and 350,000 to 500,000 on the Mall and Capitol grounds.
- The estimate of 350,000 from Political Gumbo — and let me just mention: this is the way it’s done, kiddies. Ken Vaughn looked at my computation, made his own, documented his assumptions, and came out with a different number for the number marching on Pennsylvania Ave. Frankly, from his argument, I probably trust this estimate over my original one; remember that it’s only the marchers, though, so it’s certainly a lower bound number as well.
There were several sources that, over time, were clearly spurious, such as the famous “aerial photograph” that turns out to be from a Promise Keepers rally months ago. There were also some spurious debunkings which depended on a claim that the traffic cam photos were from another event, based on the flag at half-mast. I found that a little questionable, because I went to the webcam at Freedom Plaza myself during the march and saw images comparable. If these were being faked, the fakes were being fed into the webcam stream upstream of me. It turns out, in any case, that flags were at half-staff that weekend because of the Patriot Day holiday, and in any case, since then there have been many well-sourced photographs of the crowd from different vantage points; it appears that we should continue to take the traffic cam videos as reliable.
Since I wrote that piece, though, we have two new sources of information. First, the ridership statistics from D.C. Metro became available after being delayed, apparently because of a fatal accident on the Metro tracks. The Heritage Foundation, using these figures, computed that Metrorail ridership was about 235,000 greater than the previous weekend. As they say, that in itself is more than three times the (unreliable and badly sourced) number reported in the legacy media.
Second, there is now a high-resolution photo from FreedomWorks, which you can see in the poster here.
In dealing with the Old Media’s “estimates” of this phenomenon, it’s critical to keep in mind that any report from such a source has an agenda other than informing the public. The Old Media are currently in a death spiral, and are desperate to keep what remains of their customer base, which comprises:
– Diehard left-liberals equally desperate to hang onto their worldview;
– Advertisers unconvinced that the New Media can offer them the same number of “eyeballs.”
To please the first group requires the minimzation of any “disturbing” news event. To please the second group requires that any suggestion that there might be an alternative, competitive source of readers / listeners / viewers be delegitimized, or at least downplayed.
I find it interesting that no positive influence has yet arisen to exploit the Old Media’s progressive disillusionment with the Obama Administration. I’d have thought survival pressures would trump the liberal mindset. Perhaps it will take a bit more time.
Does it really matter how many people were there. It was a huge crownd and it is not going to stop with one march. Unlike the Million Man March this had no racial overtones or numerology. It was simply about disatisfaction with big government’s intrusion into every aspect of out lives. There are 535 mischief makers on captial hill as well as the Chief Mischief Maker in Charge, President Barrack Obama who just don’t get it. We are sick and tired on the nonsense that goes on in Washington DC, state capitols, county and local government. Pay to play etc is over. Leave us alone.
Two things:
1) There was a helicopter that panned the crowd. What, no photo? I don’t believe it. At least 3 times we got a fly over and one of those times we were panned.
2) Since we were there, Congress seems different. Maybe it was us. Maybe the pendulum is swinging. Whatever it is, the Dems seem less hostile and snarky to us Astroturfers, and the GOP seems to have gotten a spine.
What no one seems to understand is that all the photos, and all the counts, and all the kings men couldn’t put Humpty back together again.
We are the tip of the iceburg. We are awake. We aren’t going away. We aren’t going to let up. A whole bunch of us read Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals, and we don’t have anything else to do. Grandma and Grampa have money. Great Grandma and Grandpa don’t want to get snuffed. And our grandkids don’t want to pay for this.
And here is the real scary part. We loved it. Next time we’re bringing some friends. If they didn’t hear us then, just wait. They will.
What is that song Tom Petty sang after 9/11? And we won’t back down….
The ridership count is unreliable. On the way in on the metro, there were only protesters. The ciy was disserted, stations empty@ least on our rail.
OK, now I’m officially terrified. The death-throes of the legacy media are going to get very, very ugly. Endless newsroom “narrativization” in lieu of news? Fine. To be expected. Elitism, contempt, writing with the blinders on? Well, OK. Whatever.
But this, this re-touching the photographs, denial of events, conspiring away the existence of an event? Wow.
We used to joke about it when reporters got their cameramen to lie on the ground and shoot upward into the 10- or 12-person usual suspects crowds that came to our state capitol, in order to pretend that the numbers were larger, if it was a cause the media endorsed. They also never seemed to get shots of the really big crowds that showed up for “the other side.” But this is an entirely different level of dishonesty. This is disappearing an event.
I’ll stick with my 2.5 million guesstimate. The turnstile figures — do they adjust for when the transit police were said to have waved people through so as to manage crowd pressure behind the gates?
You have to remember that the 0bamabots had their own infiltrators at the event. And they DID get a very accurate estimate.
And it scares them.
Announcements were made early to keep off the Mall grass because the organizers did not have a permit for that area. It was explicitly stated that if the protestors gathered in these areas, they would be forcibly removed. This caused the crowds to move outward towards Pennsylvania and Maryland Avenues. Too bad we didn’t have access to the Mall to allow photographic comparison to other gatherings.
John Chalus,Ohio Granny
Right on. Anyone who saw the photos taken from high points knows that the crowd was many hundreds of thousands at a minimum.
Both of you articulate the peaceful rebellion that is gathering and organizing. The sewer of incompetence and socialism that is Washington is going to get a high pressure cleaning in about 13 1/2 months. Keep up the education.
You are also not taking account of the people that drove in.
I met people who had driven from Illinois, Indiana, Tennessee, Florida, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, etc…
Most of those cars came full, 3-5 passengers. Those folks were staying in hotels in DC and not taking the metro. We came in two vehicles with seven people. I know others did the same just from New York. We met large groups of cuban refugees from Florida who drove up in SUVs full of people who also stayed in the city or just outside and never took the metro.
I have also been to other big rallies and marches in DC (usually as a counter protester) and this was easily the largest gathering, by orders of magnitude, that I have ever seen.
We definitely broke the million mark and closer to 1.2 million in my best guess.
My report, photos, video, etc… is here.
http://nygoe.wordpress.com/2009/09/13/aar-march-on-washington-91209/
I should add that one of our folks stood on an object just west of the reflecting pool and took a 360′ panorama shot. I should have that to display in a day or two.
The flag on the building the time lapse photos were taken from was indeed at half mast. I was there, and recall looking up to watch the folks on the roof who watched us. They are the people in the foreground of the aerial shots, well, they are at least dressed the same. That footage is legit.
They know how many ride the rails, the number given was the amount beyond their normal patrons.If only protesters rode the rails that would mean the number given PLUS the number of normal riders for a Saturday, so not really inaccurate, just giving the lower end of possible protesters riding that day.
The Old Media’s purposely low-balling the numbers actually is going to work to our advantage. Next year at least twice the crowd will be there.
Plus, I believe that the race card that is being played right now is an effort to try to stop the anti-Big government train that has already left the station. It’s not going to work.
FWIW, school buses carry 100, not 50 – about 25 seats on each side, 2 to a seat. Tour buses carry more. If there were 4,500 buses, and if each bus were full (they don’t make money busing around empty seats) then the upper limit there is nearly a half million. A conservative 50% of that is a quarter million.
These weren’t locals, and they weren’t without funds, not if they came from all over the country. I’d say at least a quarter million arrived by bus…and that doesn’t include personal transportation. It’d be hard to tally all the traffic meters and public garages filled, but it’d be telling…
One little detail keeps nagging at my brain. I know that each State had some representation, but how many of that huge crowd were from places that were but a few hours drive? My logic tells me that a large percentage of protesters were from less than 500 miles away. I’m about 2,000 miles out and could only attend ‘virtually’, if I’d have been within a day’s drive, wild horses could not have kept me away.
I imagine that for every protester than made the trip, there’s another 50-100 of us who out here in the flyover hinterland who feel just as strongly about the corrupt crap going on in DC. That should bother the hell out of any democrap congressperson as they look forward to re-election in 2010.
Everyone who is a professional in counting crowds has provided an estimate of 100,000 persons or less attending this event. All of the estimates you are using were made by people who have no experience or expertise in estimating crowd sizes.
The only reason the size of the crowd matters is because there has been so much duplicity from the TP crowd regarding attendance. The only credible sources are the independent sources, which universally reported attendance of 100,000 or less.
I really don’t think you do yourself any favors by pretending that this gathering was massive – it was large, but it hardly indicates any sort of significant electoral shift. This gathering of fringe elements serves to remind progressives that we must remain vigilant – but overstating the size of the crowd only proves how little the right cares for factual information.
Peace.
DS
Bill O’Reilly – who is afraid to challenge Obama – went with the 75,000 figure.
The bickering on the over/under on the crowd size by the MSM is just a misdirect to take people’s mind of the REASON why people traveled from all across the country for the protest. If they can get people to believe that the crowd was small – especially if they can sell the message that it was smaller than expected, then they can say that the message is meaningless. “They don’t have a very important positions if they can only get ___ folks to come in on a Saturday.”
“it’s critical to keep in mind that any report from such a source has an agenda other than informing the public.”
And this goes from the tea party people as well. I got into a heavy discussion with a conservative who believed the 2 million figure, and that the D.C. Parks people were about to release an “official” estimate, and that the MSM was doing its damnest to hide it all.
Remember, folks, all factions have an agenda. You will get played by them all.
Instead, here’s the takeaway from this:
* Crowd estimates are notoriously unreliable. People in the middle of a crowd are not reliable estimators of size.
* The MSM did cover the event. It was on CNN. The Associated Press, New York Times and the Washington Post did file articles on it. The AP moved at least a dozen photos from the demonstration that newspapers could use. (You may argue on the slant of the reporting — and I’ll agree with some of it — but it wasn’t buried.)
* However (and I think this is a big one), none of them did any followup on what the demonstration meant. It was a successful protest. It was an unusual protest, with the group’s membership obviously trending upwards. Attention should be paid. But there was nothing for the next two days, except for one article discussing how difficult it is to judge crowd size.
The Heritage Foundation, using these figures, computed that Metrorail ridership was about 235,000 greater than the previous weekend.
I have to say, this analysis strikes me as simplistic. A single comparison, one weekend to another, might be an aberration. It would be much better to compare the number from 9/12 to a rolling average derived from looking at the entire summer, or even the entire previous year going back to Labor Day weekend 2008.
Link to Freedomworks gives me a database error.
Who cares anymore, old news. Move along.
It’s out in the open now. The political establishment may obfuscate the 9/12 photos but they know whats happening. I think for the most part they know their finished.
A second lesson to be learned is the absolute ineffectually of the MSM to bury this story.
The MSM did not cover the event. One CNN van and they parked to block the view of the crowd. Didn’t see the fox news van. I’ve seen more tv vans at OSU games then at the march. It was ridiculous. One unaffiliated guy and a cameraman. It was a sea of people and a magnitude larger than the 100,000 crowd I’ve seen at OSU games.
2 million, easy. Tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands is a lie. We were waved through on our way out by DC police, all day pass didn’t work after the rally. Metro station packed at 7:30 in the morning.
I was there, you were not.
@ #15 Ten
School buses do not carry 100 passengers. I drive school buses part time. Our largest buses have a capacity of 72 children. And that’s rated for elementary school age children, high schoolers need more room. You cannot fit that many adults into them, somewhere in the neighborhood of 50. You would not want to ride for any length of time in a school bus at full capacity. Motorcoaches handle maybe 50 adults.
Also, bus companies don’t care about how many people are on the bus. If you charter the bus, you pay a rate for the bus by the hour or day, not by the number of passengers. Whether you put one person or 50 in that bus, it’s the same rate.
It’s really galling for you guys, ain’t it?
Everyone who is a professional in counting crowds has provided an estimate of 100,000 persons or less attending this event.
Cite them. So far, every source that has been named has turned out, on investigation, to be someone like the spokesman from the Fire Department.
The Old Media is desperate to play defense of Obama; everything is tied to him. When Obama melts down the MSM will follow. However, the MSM has a new suicidal narrative: The protesters are racist. With little evidence to support their claims, this narrative will not last. But they keep piling on with Joe Wilson’s “You lie!” statement as racist too. The MSM is in a death spiral indeed. President Obama’s radical nature will just ensure the Tea Parties will grow as the Democrats are divided.
I believe Fox’s Bill O’Reilly is playing suck-up to President Obama to get an interview; his “objectivity” is laughable. Like the MSM, he points out a few signs to prove the protesters are “hateful” such as the sign to bury ObamaCare will Kennedy. Is this disrespectful of Kennedy? No, the man’s dead & buried. The people want the same for ObamaCare. I cannot watch Bill O’Reilly anymore since he seems to have moved into President Obama’s anal cavity.
And this goes from the tea party people as well.
Exactly. That’s why people who do science for a living know that you have to describe your methodology as well as your results. As it stands, we’ve got a number of independent estimates made with a number of different data sources and methods, and two actual counts of part of the crowd. None of them agree with the “official” estimate, which turns out to have been by a PR guy looking out the window who was misquoted anyway. All the estimates for which we can actually compare methodologies are north of 300,000
@28. Charlie (Colorado):
Cite them. So far, every source that has been named has turned out, on investigation, to be someone like the spokesman from the Fire Department.
Okay:
If you can find anyone even half as credible reporting a number higher than 110,000, I would be surprised. But by all means, cite your sources.
Peace.
DS
28
Agreed, the paucity (actually, the absence) of links in that leftist’s cri de coeur minimalization of the crowd’s size overwhelms all of his dubious assertions about “experts” and their alleged “independence”.
Yes, the DC fire dept. made the unofficial estimate of 60,000-75,000. But what no one mentions is the fact that the estimate was made AT 9:43 IN THE MORNING. That’s over an hour before the March was even supposed to start!
Check it out: http://twitter.com/dcfireems. Just scroll down to Sept. 12. There’s all the proof you need that it was hundreds of thousands and not just tens.
The only way to fix this is to hold another one and BURY the city with conservatives.
My wife asked me why I didn’t tell her about it; she would have loved to go (we live outside Chicago). She has never protested anything in her entire life.
Hold another one, with more publicity, and we could fill the Mall and every street surrounding it. That would be a glorious sight.
David S, that just what I said: “has turned out to be someone like the spokesman from the Fire Department.”
In fact, you go right on to cite the PR guy who (1) said it wasn’t an official estimate, (2) says that the Fire Department doesn’t do estimates, but that he thinks the number is 60-70 thousand, and (3) made that estimate at 0943 — as proven by the twit walkafyre@33 linked — while the actual crowd as still at Freedom Plaza.
What you have there is an inexpert, unofficial estimate of how many people had already gotten to the Mall more than two hours before the official start of the event.
Then you’ve got the BU guy who says he’s working from press estimates, which we’ve shown pretty conclusively to be low by factors of 4 to 10.
Not at all convincing.
As I wrote on your last thread and showed my calculations for just the movement down PA Ave was 1.52. million.
Anyway, those I know who went, like me, are very angry about this “minimizing’ of the people there along with the lack of coverage about the TEA Party. They ignored how controlled we were and that we obeyed property and litter laws as good citizens should. Since congress is so cloistered, the Old Media false reporting, for what little they reported, will minimized the influence of our efforts. Senator Max Baucus’s new health care proposal in a prime example of congress not getting the message of the Grand TEA Party.
Enough is enough. It is time to utilized the tactics of the citizens of Tennessee during their income tax revolt of 1999 and stop congress from enacting any more legislation until they reaffirm their oath to defend the constitution and remove their corrupt leadership. Oh, you never hear about that revolt. Well some of the details are here at glennreynolds.com/?p=8 on the 1999 Tennessee Income Tax Revolt.
Several posts including Sebastian’s at 29 have pointed out what amounts to the legacy media’s collusion with the left and the administration regarding stories on the 9/12 event and what can only be characterized as suppression of coverage.
Now the same legacy media is spreading stories that dissent is racist. This will further damage their rapidly diminishing credibility. It is simply incredible to believe such a thing without evidence and I have seen little evidence that dissent has any racial component, other than people like Carter and Clarence Paige making such claims without providing any evidence to back the assertions up.
The bottom line is that the legacy media and the liberal/socialists are repeatedly proving they can not accept dissent and can not engage in debate, without resorting to ad hominem attack, (that’s what yelling ‘racist’ repeatedly amounts to, ad hominem attack). They see that their feeble attempts to justify and rationalize the President’s unpopular leftist policies are not being found credible by the American public so they seek to employ what they percieve as the nuclear option, race. By doing so they expose themselves as obsessed with color and likely, racist themselves. They are Jones style racists believing that the majority of whites are anti black.
Many Obama voters will find the racism tag to be meritless, especially those independents who carried him across the threshold. Americans are waking up quickly to the mistakes that were made last fall. By playing the race card, the legacy media is trying to put out the fire with gasoline. They are making many millions of us see that there is nothing post racial about this administration or it’s leftist support network which includes the legacy media.
Not politically adroit, but quite predictable.
All one has to do is look at photographs of past marches on Washington. This was vaster than the “Million man march” or Obama’s inauguration.
The 75,000 number is laughable on the face of it. I suspect we have garbage in garbage out on his figures.
While I was driving on that side of the country I wasn’t able to attend. As a Californian I’d have loved to have gone but alas it was not to be. I look forward to attending a future one as it is obvious this isn’t over with.
Farouk El-Baz, a Boston University research professor and expert on crowd estimation, said his informal research from press coverage indicated …
Pete Piringer, a spokesman for the District of
Columbia Fire Department, said he made an unofficial estimate… at the beginning of the event.
If you can find anyone even half as credible reporting a number higher than 110,000, I would be surprised. But by all means, cite your sources.
You’re making an argument from authority, in this case a particularly weak argument because your one real expert is making an “informal” guess based on “press coverage”. Now that sure sounds more scientific than all the methodologies documented by Charlie Martin in the original post, don’t it?
Your “credible” sources at the Fire Department is a public relations professional, not a crowd expert. In any case, his estimate was by his own words “unofficial” and from the early stages of the event.
Your only source that has empirical data is the PR person from the Transit Authority who cited a “significant” increase over regular ridership.
You may think you’re making a strong argument, but it really illustrates how weak your position is.
I don’t really care how big the turnout was. From the panoramic photo, it’s clear that there were hundreds of thousands, certainly more than 70-80,000. I’ve been in some very large crowds on more than one occasion. Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor is routinely filled with more than 100,000 people. Events on the Detroit riverfront like the fireworks and boat races typically draw 500,000 or more people, with the fireworks often drawing well over a million people on both sides of the river. The parades for the Red Wings’ Stanley Cup victories were more than a million people.
The panoramic photo from the roof of the US Capitol is sufficient proof for me that there were hundreds of thousands of people. That’s a sizable crowd and any politician that dismisses the anger at Washington that is brewing does so at the risk of losing their next election.
Quote your experts all you want, but look at the panoramic shot and tell yourself that is only 80,000 people. Who you gonna believe, your experts’ guesstimations or your own lyin’ eyes?
what was the 9/12 event? never heard of it,.
#2 John Chalus “Does it really matter how many people were there? ”
Yes, it does, when the mainstream media tries to dismiss it with reports “thousands protest in Washington DC” or stating attendence was 70,000. When half a million or more people feel strongly enough about something to burn a precious weekend day and travel to Washington DC — in many cases long distances — there is a significant message being sent that the entire country should know about.
Charlie, there is a huge, vested interest by our statists to keep the number low. Those of us who were there know how big it was.
Anecdotal: My husband’s best friend is a former cop, spec forces officer, black belt, etc. He is in contact with many cops and former cops, and the word on the grapevine from D.C. cops is this was the biggest demonstration EVER in D.C. I know “demonstration” rules out things like inaugurations. But I tell you now, if the Tea Partiers do D.C. again next year it will be BIGGER.
27. Martin Knight.
It’s not galling, it’s just funny to watch you guys work so hard to fluff up the numbers.
It’s not going to change anything. The left could pull numbers back when Bush was in and did it get Bush out of the office? Nope.
@31. David S:
“his informal research from press coverage indicated 75,000 as the peak number.”
What press coverage? What press accounts?
There was no press coverage. The only press coverage was the fire department and cbs news quoting tens of thousands. I was there. ONE helicopter circled a couple of times. No other media except one cnn and one fox reporter were there. Do you understand?
As far as the washington transit is concerned. Our passes didn’t work and they were waving people thru. I saw it. Hell, me and my family had to use the emergency exits
TWICE.
If that’s the best you have, you have nothing. Which makes sense, because I WAS THERE and anything less then 500,000 is a flat our LIE.
The day before September 12 was September 11, the eighth anniversary of the attacks on September 11, 2001. It was not Patriots Day.
NOT TO WORRY – THERE WILL BE MORE NEXT TIME!
Sorry, whiners. The number is 60,00 to 70,000. That’s a respectable number, Why waste so much time and energy trying to lie it upward? Wait, I know why, because that’s what you do. You may as well be quoting Orly Taitz saying the crowd was 2 million. By the way, did you see the judge’s comments on your vaunted birth trial? Some choice tidbits:
“Finally, in a remarkable shifting of the traditional legal burden of proof, Plaintiff unashamedly alleges that Defendant has the burden to prove his “natural born” status. Thus, Plaintiff’s counsel, who champions herself as a defender of liberty and freedom, seeks to use the power of the judiciary to compel a citizen, albeit the President of the United States, to “prove his innocence” to “charges” that are based upon conjecture and speculation. Any middle school civics student would readily recognize the irony of abandoning fundamental principles upon which our Country was founded in order to purportedly “protect and preserve” those very principles ….
Plaintiff’s complaint is not plausible on its face. To the extent that it alleges any “facts,” the Complaint does not connect those facts to any actual violation of Plaintiff’s individual constitutional rights. Unlike in Alice in Wonderland, simply saying something is so does not make it so.”
Saying it is 500,000 or 1 million or 2 million or elevnty gazillion doesn’t make it so.
You’re making yourselves look foolish. And I hope you continue.
Al@36, your number could be right. It certainly matches the number Barb Espinosa got from the “people meter” count. To me it still looks high; to be correct, the crowd later must be packed really tightly and there has to be a whole lot of people who aren’t in the panoramic photo, or a whole lot of people must have given up and gone home early.
Middleman, I’ve carefully excluded the high estimates and have gone through, with details, the other estimates. Your counter-argument, such as it is, seems to be based on one non-expert report that’s clearly discredited, and an offhand number from someone who is said to be an expert but who was working from poor data. (How do I know it’s poor data? Because it came out so quickly, and because press sources were uniformly bad.) So any reader can make up their own mind.
Peg@43, I’ve heard the same stories. I think that’s entirely possible too. Among other things, a real count of only 850K would make it twice the size of the “Million” Man March and the same size as the Obama Inauguration.
Here is a new, high resolution, panoramic picture, taken from the top of the Capitol building, that has just surfaced (http://iowntheworld.com/blog/ scroll down about six entries to find the picture).
I was in the crowd marching down Pennsylvania Ave. to the Capital, then part of the crowd on the Capitol Lawn, and—since I was aware of the likely “problems” about crowd size estimates–I also walked up and down Capitol Hill and onto the Mall and through the crowd, so that I got a good idea of its extent and density.
Note that an actual count taken from a fixed position along the Pennsylvania Ave. route logged 450,000 people passing that point, and this does not at all count the people traveling to the Capitol using Maryland Ave., Independence and Constitution Avenues and coming from various Metro stops in and around the Mall and Capitol Hill, who I observed and who can be seen streaming toward Capitol Hill in the picture.
If you really look at the panoramic picture, you will see that not only are the various sections of the Capital Lawn filled, but so, too, is the wide circular street—East Capitol Circle– below the Capitol, so is the entire large perimeter of the Reflecting Pool–several deep as I observed, and down past Third Street on the Mall—all this I observed myself by 12:30 or so, and the main event was not to start until 1:00 P.M.
Moreover, from the picture it can also be seen that the feeder streets leading up to the Capitol—Independence and Constitution Avenues and Maryland and Pennsylvania Avenues and the cross streets–were jammed with people, too, because early on in the demo the Capitol Hill police closed off the Mall (since the organizers did not realize how gigantic the crowd would be and got a permit only for the Capitol Lawn and did not get a permit for a demo on the Mall) and channeled newcomers into those feeder streets. Later on more of the crowd was allowed to fill up the Mall.
And all the while I was observing, more and more people streamed into the Capital Hill & Mall areas from all directions. When I left to go home on Metro, Metro trains were still disgorging people with signs, who were heading for the Capitol Hill demo.
The day before September 12 was September 11, the eighth anniversary of the attacks on September 11, 2001. It was not Patriots Day.
Public Law
I suppose you could be making an extremely subtle point about the name not being in the plural (and making it badly), but otherwise you’re just wrong.
What the hell is it with links in the comments? I swear I had that right.
@48, you’re maintaining that number in the face of pretty positive evidence that the number is inaccurate. Why are you deluding yourself?
@50, uh, Wolla, that would be the photo I linked that prompted this follow-on article.
David S is performing his usual routine of attempting to distract everyone.
A single individual with an unassailable argument that his or her rights are being violated by Federal policy is sufficient to show that the policy should be changed. And, as it happens, there were a great many more than that at the 9/12 march.
David S’ posts are just more evidence, as if any were needed, that Progressives are indifferent to inalienable rights. The only thing that counts with them is whether they can get away with their destructive plans. Their hope is that they can acquire or keep a large enough or influential enough group to do so. Collectivist to the core. Statist to the core.
The jig is up David. The American people are catching on in increasing numbers – and, more important, with increasing clarity – to what Progressives have been attempting (and too often succeeding) to do the past 100 years.
53
It’s entire worldview is a delusion. What’s one more?
@35. Charlie Martin:
Let’s see. I’ve cited a recognized expert on crowd estimates, and verifiable numbers from the municipal transit authority.
You respond by citing a bunch of proven liars and amateurs making unsubstantiated estimates – people who have no expertise, and no empirical data to back up their estimates. Then you claim this is conclusive evidence that expert estimates are low.
You fail to cite even one authoritative media source with an estimate higher than 100,000 persons. You failed to answer the challenge. You can now resume your regularly scheduled conspiracy theorizing.
@45. joshlbetts:
There was no press coverage. The only press coverage was the fire department and cbs news quoting tens of thousands. I was there. ONE helicopter circled a couple of times. No other media except one cnn and one fox reporter were there. Do you understand?
This event was covered by every major news outlet. You claim there was no press coverage while admitting that CBS, CNN and FOX all had reported on this event. Make up your mind.
As far as the washington transit is concerned. Our passes didn’t work and they were waving people thru. I saw it. Hell, me and my family had to use the emergency exits
TWICE.
While I appreciate your anecdote, it is hardly convincing evidence of a problem with the evidence cited above. If you’ve got an official report on this, that would be great.
If that’s the best you have, you have nothing. Which makes sense, because I WAS THERE and anything less then 500,000 is a flat our LIE.
I have no doubt that there were more than 500,000 people in DC on 9/12 – but most of them were not there for the TP movement. There were other, larger events in town at the time. I look forward to further evidence that might clarify the situation.
Peace.
DS
The lefties always have the advantage in these things because they are out of work lazy bums.
NOW AND THEN:Hey, dude, did you hear the one about sweet little barry? Apparently he got his start turning tricks for a slumlord. Your messiah was apparently more mary magdalene than jesus…but he was a dood. But hey, I’m a libertarian, it’s all good.
What matters is that the point is getting across. There were millions upon millions more at home, watching all of it, or talking to their family, friends and neighbors about it.
To see Obama, Pelosi, Reid & Co running scared… Ha!
If this was a failure, then it was a very impressive failure!
“On the eighteenth of April in ‘seventy-five
Hardly a man in now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year
Or the midnight ride of Paul Revere …”
– Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
The nearest Monday to April 18 is the “Patriots’ Day” holiday in Massachusetts. The Boston Marathon is run on that day.
More recently, September 11 has been named “Patriot Day” nationwide.
Hence the confusion above.
@60. newton:
What matters is that the point is getting across. There were millions upon millions more at home, watching all of it, or talking to their family, friends and neighbors about it.
Yeah, we got the message. Apparently the reactionary fringe is in fashion this season with the GOP. It’s not a big deal for those of us who actually want to get something done in DC, since the GOP is basically irrelevant in government right now.
If this was a failure, then it was a very impressive failure!
I don’t think it was a failure – but I think the attempts to pretend there were hundreds of thousands of TP attendees are. Nobody believes this BS except the folks who think this astroturf is a greener pasture.
The right wing already looks pretty bad – but I have confidence that you’ll keep digging.
Peace.
DS
My background includes calculating occupancy for buildings, pathways, arenas, and open ampitheaters. I have watched time lapse pedestrian traffic videos as one source and used photos as well to confirm or deny or make adjustments to client expectations.
I can tell you after using proven calculation techniques with variables, this crowd was well over the MSM estimates by 9:30 am and continued to grow. I was not there and had to rely on information gleened from available sources. The video from the roof of the Marriott was the best one until the panoramic view posted here.
Since there are no actual “official” estimates, only guesses from various sources, without all of the crowd photos, etc. available, a conservative number is around 500,000 with a more liberal estimate at 800,000 plus.
And, no #57, I don’t consider myself an “expert” but I do rely on common sense and traditional mathmatical calculations. Using even the most extreme variables, the figures you and the press are relying on are inaccurate and self-serving. I don’t need to be a professor to apply even the most basic principles of math, etc. to come up with a “reasonable” estimate.
As so many have said, and disbelieve all you want, 2010 will be an election watershed moment. The good people who attended the rally are being true to the slogan, “Silent No More”. And, remember one other small detail politicians seem to have forgotten, the crowd who attended the rally is the demographic who votes in HIGHER numbers than any other and the crowd was a miniscule representation of those who wanted to be there but couldn’t.
This congress had better enjoy each other’s company while they can, Democrat and Republican alike. There will be new faces all around when elections are over in 2010 and 3012. You and yours pissed off the wrong crowd this time.
The best lower bound estimate for the crowd by professional analysts is 350,000. Upper bound estimate goes over 1,000,000.
The funny thing is, this years 9/12 crowd will look small when looking back from future demonstrations. The movement has touched a spark and is exploding in numbers.
Please, gherkins. Minimize to your heart’s content.
The biggest mistake the hard left will make is to continue calling people racists/lunatics/fringe/etc. but, keep on doing it, lefties.
Meanwhile WE THE PEOPLE will be busy trying to rescue the country from your idiocy.
When we’re beating the snot out of these Leftist punks in the streets, their snide analysis will count for jack squat. I’m sure the South thought it had “numbers” against the North, too.
Just remember that reality is what you can’t imagine away.
Have there been any estimates of the total number of teaparty’ers not just in DC, but across the nation, on September 12th?
Let me get this straight. David S is claiming that by all believable estimates, the crowd would not have filled Neyland Stadium to watch a Vols game. The depths that these people will sink to continues to amaze me.
@62. David S:
“Apparently the reactionary fringe is in fashion this season with the GOP.”
I met MORE democrats than republicans at the march. Who has the agenda? You do.
The funny thing is, this years 9/12 crowd will look small when looking back from future demonstrations. The movement has touched a spark and is exploding in numbers.
I only hope the future marchers numbers are matched by the numbers of Lefties jumping off the nearest tall buildings.
I hate to again interrupt the “fact free zone”, but given the complete lack of perspective provided by the article, I feel a little factual info serves the interest of all.
Size Matters; So Do Lies
I expect that many of the commenters here will continue to bandy about unsubstantiated ‘estimates’ of the crowd’s size. That’s fine. You can all convince each other that the 2 million number is somehow real, or perhaps a more plausible number in the low six figures will become the wingnut ‘consensus’.
It doesn’t matter if you think there were 100 million on the mall – the empirical evidence simply doesn’t support the bloated estimates of the armchair set here. Truly and objectively compare the photos of this protest to any other large gathering at the capitol, and it is clear that it is a respectable crowd – but nothing close to the numbers cited in this article.
Peace.
DS
It’s not a big deal for those of us who actually want to get something done in DC, since the GOP is basically irrelevant in government right now.
Having endured your drivel on this board over the past few months, I can tell you with 100% certainty that you couldn’t, on the best day of your life, “do” anything for me that I couldn’t “do” a million times better on the worst day of mine. You want to “do” something? GTF out of my way.
48. Now and Then, the only liar here is you. You quote a figure taken before the event started without any scientific support, and you try to pass it off as a total for the event. By the way, the burden of proof is always on a candidate for office to prove he is eligible to hold that office. This isn’t a criminal trial where the burden of proof is on the prosecution, but rather a claim to authority which requires the claimant to prove that he is lawfully entitled to the office. A good analogy would be that you can’t just declare that you own a piece of unclaimed property; you have to prove you actually own it. The state won’t turn over $1 million in stock certificates to you just because you say they’re yours, you have to prove that you are the legal owner.
It is self delusion. The left chooses to believe what they want despite anything that they are shown. Denial is a powerful thing. It really doesn’t matter though.
From the vociferous posts here they do begin to feel the ground shift under them. If they don’t run quickly enough from news of the march they see average Americans that never come out to protest. They see moderates that gave them the last election there.
They will still probably be stunned when the sea change comes in 2010.
They will still probably be stunned when the sea change comes in 2010.
If the GOP takes the House, they’ll probably still insist that Pelosi be seated as Speaker. They are useless evolutionary dead-ends. Even the lowly appendix is more useful than a Leftist like David S.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090824/sc_livescience/theappendixusefulandinfactpromising
Curious, isn’t it that all this talk of racist protesters starts a few days after one of the largest politcal rallies in D.C. history? Does someone have an agenda?
66. venividivici:
When we’re beating the snot out of these Leftist punks in the streets, their snide analysis will count for jack squat. I’m sure the South thought it had “numbers” against the North, too.
Um, no – the South was well aware of the material and human limitations of their army. Thanks for the confirmation that you prefer violence to analysis.
Just remember that reality is what you can’t imagine away.
President Obama. I like it.
@72.
Having endured your drivel on this board over the past few months, I can tell you with 100% certainty that you couldn’t, on the best day of your life, “do” anything for me that I couldn’t “do” a million times better on the worst day of mine. You want to “do” something? GTF out of my way.
Keep up the self-esteem work, vvv – I know it makes you feel good to talk trash. I’m happy to help you out with that. Just don’t get any more ideas about beating the snot out of anyone – that never ends well. Maybe you should study the Civil War a bit more before you go off half-cocked? You could learn a thing or two.
In the meantime, have fun in Disneyland.
Peace.
DS
You couldn’t pay me to go to HuffPo or Daily Kos. The dissonance of reality would require me to be prescribed heavy medication. Yet every day the same individuals show up here with the same claptrap, hammering away at it, the subject of constant derision, winning no ground, but tomorrow vivo and his gang will be hanging around again to bang their heads against the wall with the intention of demoralizing us. They have to work a lot cheaper than I would.
So okay, Middleman, there were many dozens of people there. It was an illusion created by the clever use of mirrors that it appears to be more than that. Go back to Ariana and report your success.
From The Producers (1967):
GOEBBELS
Heil, baby! I just finished the
morning propaganda broadcasts.
LSD
What did you tell the people?
GOEBBELS
I told them we invaded England.
LSD
Hey, baby, that’s good! How’d we
come out?
GOEBBELS
We won.
LSD
Groovy!
THEY SMACK HANDS.
Just to add more fuel to this fire… the Heritage Foundation has come up with their estimates… 313,000 to 433,000 people.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/09/15/metro-delivers-hundreds-of-thousands-to-912-rally/
Charlie, What do you think?
WMATA ridership 9/12/09 = 437,624
WMATA ridership 9/05/09 = 300,963
Assuming the delta was entirely 913DC related and each additional ride was, in fact, a round trip;
68,330.5 = (437,624 – 300,963)/2
So once again, we see almost 4X inflation over the actual ridership data.
DS:I feel a little factual info serves the interest of all.
Let us know if you find some. The article you linked depends on — surprise — the ABC News estimate of 60,000 to 70,000, which in turn depended on the clearly wrong DC Fire Department 0943 number.
Bart:a conservative number is around 500,000 with a more liberal estimate at 800,000 plus.
Which is completely consistent with the computations here, thanks.
In any case, in the mean time, even the WaPo is noticing the collapse of the Metro system under the load.
“It’s not a big deal for those of us who actually want to get something done in DC” [David S]
The only thing those in D.C. should be doing for the next 20 years is gradually rolling back the Progressive-created Leviathan that is choking the life out of the Republic.
Thanks for the confirmation that you prefer violence to analysis.
“To every thing, there is a season”. Read Vollman on the topic of political violence. You and your comrades have shown that you’re not interested in analysis, so why should I be?
Maybe you should study the Civil War a bit more before you go off half-cocked? You could learn a thing or two.
Won’t need to study it. Going to be living version 2.0 soon.
Um, no – the South was well aware of the material and human limitations of their army.
People with actual money on the line, and not gum-flapping losers like you, gave the South an almost 50-50 shot of winning.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w13567
Maybe in your “studies” you could include some people who don’t view the world through some la-la kumbayah worldview, but are out actually trying to deal with reality.
Peace.
Charlie:
The 60-75,000 number came from an estimate made very early. Here is the Tweet:
Keep up the self-esteem work, vvv – I know it makes you feel good to talk trash. I’m happy to help you out with that.
Talking trash? Aren’t you some sociology grad from some no-name state school? Jeez, dude, the degrees I DON’T bother to put on my resume are more difficult to attain and prestigious than that. I’m just trying to help you realize your place in the real-world pecking order and the arrogance of your presumption that you could ever do anything to benefit me. Now, since you can’t benefit me, you can only harm me and that makes you my potential enemy.
@79, I linked that one too, as one of the two pieces of new information. Since it’s based on Metro ridership numbers, I think it’s excessively conservative, but plausible. It’s still well into the range of estimates and still 5 times as much as the legacy media is reporting.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/09/15/metro-delivers-hundreds-of-thousands-to-912-rally/
TS Hanna passed over DC on 9/6/2008. D’oh!
In other words, the WMATA ridership for that day is an easily explainable outlier due to existing severe weather conditions.
All other WMATA Saturdays from last year and this year show 300K (or higher).
I need to rephrase my last post to the same timeframe for each year that being mid-August to mid-September, in terms of WMATA ridership.
Also, one must consider round trips, not just total point-to-point transits.
All numb ers need to be divided by at least a factor of two.
Even in a moment of weakness, an NBC reporter himself admitted to the fact that NBC had consulted with an expert on the issue and that expert estimated far in excess of 70-80,000. http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009/09/nbc-report-says-their-people-estimate.html
Gawd…the trolls are out today on this one.
Must be some obsession with their inadequacy.
I grew up in D.C., spent over 35 years going to protest after protest.
I heard the estimates over the yearas and knopw how much each space can hold.
The FreedomWorks poster is quite helpful to give an appreciation of the space and density.
You can forget about “early estimates” because the Fire Department does not do estimates in Washington, D.C..
You can forget about the credibility of any individual or organization which stick to a 60-70,000 number, just by looking at the photo…assuming you know protests in D.C.
And if you don’t, STFU.
Breifly said, my educated guess is around 1 million.
#89
“Our own people THINK hundreds of thousands of people were here …”
nOTE THAT THE BOOKENDS TO THIS QUOTE IS “TENS OF THOUSANDS
Note: Amy and Tom (twice) bookend that quote THREE times with “tens of thousands …”
Oh my goodness. If truth be told, there was only little ole me, my husband, and some widow woman from Ohio. We sure get alot out of photo shop! And with just us three, (and 2 youngens with a hidden video and their grannies fur coat) we got the most important count of all, 345 to 75 in the House to defund ACORN. Think that would have happened 2 weeks ago?
You guys who want to devalue us, denegrate us, call us racists and teabaggers might think you are mattering to us. But honey child, there were alot of staffers out there taking pictures for their bosses. So we don’t really have to convince YOU. All the convincing done been done.
#90
Well your “educated guess” is off by an order of magniture (or more) versus my scientific estimates, based on 35+ years as a reseacher, engineer, and scientist.
Photographs taken at low and very oblique angles are notorious for highly exaggerating the size of crowds versus direct overhead photos (orthophotos or satellite imagery).
Just wander over to Defense Imagery (http://www.defenseimagery.mil/index.html) and look at the hundreds of high resolution photographs taken from the same location during the Inauguration.
100,000 people TOPS were at 912DC.
KG@89, thanks for that link. Yes indeed, NBC reported “hundreds of thousands.”
Fascinating.
“Maybe you should study the Civil War…”
You mean the civil war where a bunch of traitor Democrats, who thought they had the right to order other people around, got the living crap beat out of them?
It’s simply amazing how the Left is exercizing themselves to prove nothing much happened Saturday. Hey Lefties, it’s that kind of echo chamber that is really going to bite you on the a$$ come election day 2010. Wake up or get run over.
Oops, sorry Freedomlost, I linked the statistics but not the Heritage post; thanks for filling in the link.
#93
100k center foreground alone.
Now STFU, non-D.C. moron.
No worries. I think it is great that legacy media and leftist politicians continue to ignore, disrespect, and attack us. It is incredibly important to vote and get other to vote the RIGHT way. The arrogance will bring down many incumbents only if we keep the pressure on and continue to report within our own media. Money speaks louder than anything else. That is why alternative conservative media will beat out legacy media, but it will take time.
If you have a little extra, donate to conservative candidates and get more involved. I encouraged others to do so as well. A dinner outing a month to various conservatives goes a long ways to changing the Republican party. I do this now. Changing the Republican party is the only way to enact real change.
Change is now.
93, at this point no one, not even NBC News, agrees with you.
In any case, that’s why we’ve taken, at this point, four separate methodologies; none of them agrees with less than 100,000, including the Parks Service’s own methodology.
If you can come up with overhead imagery, I’d be thrilled to see it; I haven’t been able to track it down.
#97 Charlie, your welcome. I did it just to watch the trolls as their heads explode… Life is good..
Has anyone ever done an estimate of the total number of people all over the USA on that day (9/12)?
The other protest gatherings count too, right?
I was there — & based on comparisons with the Obama inauguration map (appeared in USA Today), and the fact that we were such a sprawling, roaming crowd, I believe we were 800,000 minimum.
As one of the bike cops told me, the police were really caught off-guard by the massive numbers. As a result, there were few barricades and no confining organization. We were all over the grassy areas, the feeder streets, the parking lots, & roaming the surrounding streets looking for “provisions” (there were far too few PortOJohns).
It was a stunning turn-out. Don’t believe anything less than 800K.
I have a friend who lives in DC and she tells me that only one of the raillines was open on Saturday. That prevented loads of people from getting in. Also heard from her friend that many of the buses were being turned away for traffic reasons. So even the photographs don’t tell the whole story because who knows how many couldn’t get into the mall area in the first place?
William Campenni over at Human Events did a pretty good calculation
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33552
I was there. It was somewhere between 850,000 to 1.2 million.
#93
Dude, you have issues, serious issues, I’d suggest you seek professional help, but it would just fall upon deaf ears.
Just to point out….
The USA Today graphic estimates at 240,000 back to 4th street, not 3rd street.
Part of the Capitol grounds in the USA Today graphic appear to be closed to the crowd in the photo, say 1/3 of the space before the reflecting pool is fenced off.
Lots of overflow off to the sides that can’t be seen on the photo.
no one one the grass between 3rd and 4th streets, but overflow to the sides that is tough to measure.
I wouldn’t be surprised at 200,000, but not possible to get to 500,000.
My previous post was meant for #98. Sorry.
I was there; had to walk because the Metro sTations were too crowded to get on a train. The crowd was amazing — up filling the mall, the streets leading back to the Capitol. I don’t know how to estimate numbers, but I know that we would have filled 100 large football stadiums and more.
Many people would have liked to have been there and many others who are not on the Internet didn’t know about it.
A widow friend and I came from Illinois and walked our 70+ year-old legs off to take part.
The crowd was very serious but also grateful to be among Patriots who bless our country and don’t curse it. We want to be left alone to enjoy our freedoms and the little money we have saved for our old age. We want the same for our children and grandchildren.
We left the Capitol grounds clean also; not like the “environmentalist” slobs attending Obama’s inauguration who left piles of debris there and in the Metro stations (according to a woman at the airport who lives there).
#100
And therein lies the basic problem, you are chasing your own tail, as it were.
Draw a map, outline those areas where you believe people were at the peak of the rally.
Now assume a density, another big assumption piled upon the above previous big assumption.
I’ve looked at 10,000 images over at Flickr (keyword 912DC), I have yet to find any photos where I could make an assumption of less than five square feet per person.
Perhaps 20-30% of the crowd is sitting down and in a very random fashion.
Trees full bloom all over the place obscure a clear view to large fractions of the rally.
I’ve already debunked The Heritage Foundation’s methodology completely (TS Hanna).
I can also do the same with your other three methods.
Regardless, this is old news, the accepted number has been booked, as it were.
But keep on telling yourselves that you had two million, no make that one million, no make that 500,000, no make that tens of thousands.
Another approach. Have everyone who attended photocopy one piece of evidence they were there: a metro ticket, a store receipt, a digital camera photo — credit card receipts are certainly useful. A hired accounting firm could compile a name list from the evidence, which could become a potent weapon for conservative candidates and would certainly be more reliable than a voter role in a Democratic Congressional district.
Look, things are only going to get worse under Obama. Another bigger march is inevitable. Lets make sure a satellite photo gets taken this time.
#112
Well there you go!
Lessons learned.
The 2009 Inauguration had three “official” estimates within a 24-hour period (800,000 (Arizona professor), 1.6 million (Jane’s Defense Weekly), and 1.8 million (DC Metro/mayor’s office).
Next year is an election year, get your photos from as high an elevation as possible, from several surrounding locations even. GPS the crowd perimeter.
And get your agreed upon number out within the very next news cycle.
Make sure that the Black Family Reunion doesn’t conflict with your rally (they had the entire mall from 3rd street to the WM).
In other words, get your counting act together way ahead of time.
I have no doubt that you will have at least 500,000 bonafide NEXT YEAR.
I was at the rally – arrived at Freedom Plaza at 7:30 AM and it was filling up fast at that time. Walking down Pennsylvania Avenue I can tell you it was a sense crowd – but one of the friendliest and safest mass of people I have ever been among. When we reached the Capitol and looked around – my layman estimate was 750,000. I used the concept of how many people fill a football stadium and how many stadiums I could visualize.
The day was one I will never forget and it has only strengthened my resolve to continue to play a part in this Liberty movement. When anyone asks what party I belong to – I now answer – the PATRIOT PARTY. As the signs stated – we are going to party like it’s 1773. The fight has begun and the people involved who want to make government smaller and put term limits on Congress is HUGE.
We are not David anymore and we will bring down Goliath.
I take exception – the Black Family Reunions did NOT have the entire mall and the people attending that event didn’t arrive in the late morning. They had a lot of tents and a huge stage but very few people, We, in fact, headed to the WWII Memorial at 4 PM and the attendees for the “Reunion” were JUST arriving.
Very impressive analysis.
I was there, and by my calculations there were a minimum of 850,000 to 1,000,000. However, it makes little difference what the fringe media is reporting the real test will be when we vote the bulk of those up for re-election out of office. So opine all you want about how small the group was, your opinions are irrelevant. For anyone who was there, it’s very obvious this is HUGE.
#111 – “I have yet to find any photos where I could make an assumption of less than five square feet per person.” ???
Why make an assumption? OH, I get it – YOU WERE NOT THERE! I was. And it was so crowded at some points that I actually got a bit panicked — shoulder-to-shoulder close — we stayed on the periphery most of the time.
And why the focus on the Metro? There are numerous large hotels around the Capital — lots of people walked directly to the rally site — lots of people took taxis to Freedom Plaza. There are large hotels all over that city — no need to take a bus or train, unless you booked far away. The Mall is easy to walk and not that big — people walked. You know, like people who care about the environment & all.
#114
Moot point. The BFM had the whole mall reserved from 4th St. (or 3rd St., I’d have to check to make sure) to the WM for the entire weekend.
It doesn’t matter if they were there or not, as has been pointed out repeatedly, the rally did not extend past 3rd St. at any time (in significant numbers).
There are plenty of very low density people on the mall perimeter walkways, but at that distance (say 1000 to 2000 feet away) the camera angle is so oblique that the people could have been spaced fifty feet apart, along the line of sight, and they would look like they were standing right behind one another.
It’s a very simple geometric problem, for small angles, theta = sin(theta) = tan (theta) (angle in radians). The math is simple and straight forward. I’ll leave it as an exercise for your readers.
Oh, and that panorama, why didn’t the photographer take several shots and combine it into a stitched panorama? That’s the first thing I would have done. Not very professional IMHO.
Nuff said.
Previous reply is to #115 (not #114). Sorry.
U R Way Over The Top- Mind explaining why you think more than a tenth of the protesters actually took the Metro, seeing as most of them drove or rode on chartered buses.
Hello, there were people at protests in other locations than DC that day, and they will count at the poles 2010 and 2012 also………………:)
O’Reily is sucking up for an Obama interview. He is only looking out for O’Rielly. He is such a fraud. Anyone looking at the video knows that the crowd is larger than 75,000. Now watch the worm start to defend Obama.
I don’t know how big the crowd was but I BELIEVE ALL ESTIMATES ARE OFF BECAUSE OF THE FLUX OF PEOPLE IN AND OUT OF THE CITY. I got there at 9:30 and walked to Freedom Plaza. I was surprised as to how many people where there. Then I looked down Penn Avenue and I was shocked by the size of that crowd. I left at 12:15 but people were still heading toward the Capital. What made the crowd seem so small was the fact that everyone was so well behaved, even singing patriotic songs. There were some tasteless signs but many of them were hilarious and most insightful and cleaver. It was one of the most impressive events I have ever attended.
The largest event I have seen, comparable to this, was the gay rights parade back in the 80′s. I watched that march from in front of the white house and heard the most despicable things being said about Reagan. Yet the media never mentioned them. I counted 18 anti-gay protesters and one foul mouth drunk making fun gays. They were protected by 64 uniformed police. I know because I counted both groups. I did not see hardly any police there last Saturdays. Why? Because they were not needed. These were patriotic Americans of all races and political persuasions. It was truly something that made you feel glad to be an American.
Oh ya, I did not see anyone from the lame mainstay media. There were asleep on this event like they have been on Acorn. Who cares about them anyway?
UR, the thing is that we hav, at this point, a very large number of estimates. They’ve been done with a number of different methods. None of them are consistent with a number nearly as small as 100,000.
That increases my confidence, as a good bayesian, that the real number is somewhere above 100,000.
To counter that we’re offered the “Fire Department” estimate, which (a) wasn’t made by the Fire Department [er se, and (b) was made and tweeted at 0943, long before the march even started.
Well, as a good bayesian I have to say it’s possible that is was as low as 100,000. Just that the probability is very low. It seems to me the most probable number is going to be in the range of 300K to 1000K. In the absence of new and better data, that’s what I conclude.
“It’s a very simple geometric problem, for small angles, theta = sin(theta) = tan (theta) (angle in radians). The math is simple and straight forward. I’ll leave it as an exercise for your readers”
wow….thanks.
i have an equation for YOU(even simpler):a MASSIVE crowd of PISSED off taxpayers-(minus)desperate spin artists and media shills=(equals)frightened…cowering politicians.
i call it’The happy theorum’.
106. Steve:
“I was there. It was somewhere between 850,000 to 1.2 million.”
Funny, I was there, too, and I put it at between 846,223 and 1,854,215 million. What method did you use?
The know-nothings will lap up the state-media BS. Congress can look at the pics and tremble.
VOTE FOR NO!!! I REPEAT NO INCUMBENT POLS. CLEAN HOUSE!!!
walkafyre @33:
Well except that Politico interviewed the Fire Dept rep on September 14, two days AFTER the protest:
“But the day of the rally, Piringer unofficially told one reporter that he thought between 60,000 and 75,000 people had shown up.
‘It was in no way an official estimate,’ he said.
We asked Piringer whether there were enough protesters to fill the National Mall, as depicted in the photograph.
‘It was an impressive crowd,’ he said. But after marching down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol, the crowd ‘only filled the Capitol grounds, maybe up to Third Street,’ he said.”
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/14/blog-posting/blogger-claim-photo-shows-millions-tea-party-prote/
Count the people in the picture as you wish, but the DC Fire Department has stuck with its own estimate.
111.: “Regardless, this is old news, the accepted number has been booked, as it were.”
It’s hilarity bordering on the absurd when attention starved, ankle-biting trolls post comments over and over on threads they supposedly regard as ‘old news’.
Is that the scent of fear and desperation hovering in the air? Why yes…I do believe it is…
The exact figure doesn’t matter, there were more than enough to make the moderate Democrat go “HOLY ONE TERM BATMAN! I didn’t like Obama that much anyhow!”
Which is why Pelosi started crying. It’s hard for a crazy loon liberal who reminds me of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Hearts_(Alice%27s_Adventures_in_Wonderland)
Then again I just watched Tim Burton’s trailer. Could it be she favors Johnny Depp’s Mad Hatter more?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkuvgxkcw2c&feature=related
By the way, walkafyre, I have to question whether that “unofficial estimate” tweet was really made at 9:43 ET, despite the time stamp.
http://twitter.com/dcfireems/status/3936606105
I mean, aside from the problem of making any sort of estimate two hours before the march started (according to you), why would they be treating “several injuries and illnesses on the Mall” hours before anyone was there?
Looking at more tweets:
http://twitter.com/dcfireems
Why would they write this nearly an hour BEFORE the rally on the Mall started?
“# UPDATE – from the mall & grounds of US Capitol – only 2 transports so far – many evaluations – crowds still large, but scattered
11:08 AM Sep 12th from web”
Many evaluations? Crowd at the mall and Capitol grounds STILL large? An hour before the rally started?
How about this, only half an hour into the event?
“# UPDATE- event scheduled to end around 4p – crowds still heavy but scattering – DC F&EMS on duty standing by – EMS transported 3 more
12:34 PM Sep 12th from mobile web”
Crowds STILL heavy at 12:30? Scattering so soon?
And then after that? Nothing. Why, if the event had just begun?
————————————
My guess is that the time stamp is just off by a few hours.
To test my theory, I looked at a few other tweets. For instance, on the morning of September 11:
“# media line updated – 202 673 3700 – DC F&EMS has NO info about CNN report of activity on Potomac River – DC F&EMS has not been dispatched
7:34 AM Sep 11th from web
# DC F&EMS is NOT involved and has NOT been dispatched to any incidents in or around the Potomac River
7:27 AM Sep 11th from web”
Well, we know that CNN did not report this “activity on Potomac River” at 7:00 or 7:30 am, but at 10:am ET:
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/11/cnr.02.html
Scrolling down, we see some very touching reminders of the events of 9/11/01:
“# Shanksville, Pa – never forget 7:01 AM Sep 11th from web”
“# Pentagon – never forget 6:35 AM Sep 11th from web”
“# never forget 5:48 AM Sep 11th from mobile web?”
Notice that they choose different, odd times for each post? As it turns out, they are almost exactly three hours to the minute behind the times those actual events occurred in Shanksville, at the Pentagon, and in NYC.
Hmm, rather compelling evidence that the time stamp on these tweets was three hours behind the actual Eastern zone time.
Which means the DC Fire Department likely tweeted its “unofficial estimate” at 12:43 ET, when the event was fully underway.
Makes it somewhat more reasonable, doesn’t it?
“It’s not a big deal for those of us who actually want to get something done in DC,”
Even if that “something” is a task that the Federal government is structurally incapable of handling?
That’s the problem I have with Leftists … they believe that the problems we face can ONLY be solved by Federal Government intervention.
That, and the fact they are mired in a ends-justify-the-means relativism that fosters intellectual dishonesty. Why should we trust YOUR experts, “informal” as they are?
“since the GOP is basically irrelevant in government right now.”
Don’t know about that institutional party you name, but the total opposition to this President and his attempts to impose soft, cuddly forms of fascism upon this nation apparently is relevant …
… for if it was irrelevant, Cap & Trade and the “public option” would have been signed into law by now.
As it is … things certainly AREN’T getting done … things the opposition to this President thinks SHOULDN’T be done … so apparently the rumors of our political demise are greatly exaggerated.
However, DS, I’m sure you and the other trolls here will continue to …
STRAIN STRAIN STRAIN …. STRAIN THOSE GNATS!
THEN FLING ‘EM OUT LIKE MONKEY POO FROM WHEREVER YOU’RE AT …
AS YOU SWALLOW CAMELS OF DESTRUCTION ‘TILL YOUR BELLY’S FAT …
STRAIN STRAIN STRAIN …. STRAIN THOSE GNATS!
Its so revealing that the ‘libtards’ and their useful tools the totally discredited MSM fall over themselves trying to diminish the numbers that attended 9/12 proof if ever there was that they are running scared. Just like they are with Sarah Palin and this is why they are already at the last stage of the discredited scoundrel playing the RACE CARD over and over and over again the HYPOCRITICAL morons.
I was in Cali Los Angeles no less watching the party with My lil sis. flipping back and forth between Fox and CNN until I found C-span I’m not exactly sure what time it was exactly I can tell you I saw the speech given by Congressman Price Shortly after his speech the female reporter on C-Span reported around 200,000. That being said who cares 50k or 1 mill still more than Obama could buss in for his own event. And remember D.C. wasn’t the only location holding a rally. Under estimating is par for the course when it’s not a liberal function. Back in April 15,000 people showed up to protest higher taxes here in California the L.A. Times ran a story on page A22 radio stunt draws large crowd and that wasn’t until several days after the event. But they had a nice big article on a antiwar protest that hadn’t even happened yet and were encouraging their readers to participate If I remember it drew something like 500 people. The same People trying to downplay the rally are the same ones who got the official estimates stopped because their rallies never lived up to their billing anyway.
It all doesn’t add up. People gotta be lying on the right, at least some of them.
There is racism at play and the hatred for liberals on right wing is getting to point that I can’t even call you people my fellow Americans.
Your just anti-democracy fascists you lie to my face everyday. It’s disgusting.
JD @ 134 said:
“The same People trying to downplay the rally are the same ones who got the official estimates stopped because their rallies never lived up to their billing anyway.”
—————————————-
Really? Louis Farakhan is trying to downplay the rally?
“Count the people in the picture as you wish, but the DC Fire Department has stuck with its own estimate.”
Can you read? It was the man’s personal impression, not the DC Fire Department’s estimate. Nor did that man stand by his estimate: when asked about it, he merely said it was an impressive crowd.
Geesh.
I move to rename the Mainstream Media the Ministry of Truth.
Here’s the Washington DC Metrorail service information for Saturday, September 12, 2009:
http://www.wmata.com/rail/disruption_reports/viewPage_update.cfm?ReportID=1563
September 12, 2009: Metrorail: 437,624
Comparable Metrorail Ridership 1 Year Ago: 362,773
The difference between these two figures is — 74,851.
Oddly enough, this almost exactly matches the unofficial estimate given by a Washington DC Fire Department spokesman, who estimated the crowd at 60,000 to 70,000 people.
But 2 million just feels so much better, doesn’t it?
Sorry to burst your bubble kids but those Metro numbers are one-way trips so unless you only took the Metro in and floated away on magic tea bags you need to divide those numbers by two. So many teabaggers! Almost half as many as at last weekend’s Radiers game!
#139
Don’t forget round trips.
Do you think that all the point-to-point transits were all one waw only?
Did all the 912DC people just take an inbound transit only?
Did all the 912DC people just take an outbound transit only?
Most likely alomst all 912DC people took an inbound AND an outbound transit.
Therefore, divide total 912DC transits by a factor of TWO.
That is the only honest and objective way of defining this metric.
Round trips must be assumed, as this has to be the most likely outcome.
Nuff said.
#121 “Mind explaining why you think more than a tenth of the protesters actually took the Metro, seeing as most of them drove or rode on chartered buses.”
Talk to The Heritage Foundation (THF) on that one;
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/09/15/metro-delivers-hundreds-of-thousands-to-912-rally/
They used a de facto outlier Septembar 6, 2008 in their 100% bogus analysis.
TS Hanna passed directly over DC 0n that date, see;
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/2008atlan.shtml
Get the PDF for Hanna, and actually try to read it, or just look at the final track history.
How did I figure this one out you ask?
I downloaded all the WMATA ridership data and entered it into an Excal spreadsheet. I then plotted all the data, and then I broke it down by weekdays (Saturdays, Sundays, Mondays, etceteras).
Then go look up statistical outlier somewhere.
The date that THF chose is the only data point that “stands out” and checking the Washington Post for that date led me to an article, I then went to the NOAA website, and voila.
Note: Although I’m a SME in many fields (polymath), my primary job title was Research Hydraulic Engineer (Coastal Engineering).
Nuff Said.
141. U R Way Over The Top Again:
With the freeways apparently jammed, and the metro reportedly swamped, I suppose 2 million self-reliant conservatives just walked. It’s amazing what these folks will believe, isn’t it?
It boggles the mind.
Peace.
DS
#124 UR, the thing is that we hav, at this point, a very large number of estimates. They’ve been done with a number of different methods. None of them are consistent with a number nearly as small as 100,000. …
Well as I see it there are three methods used so far;
1) WMATA transits extrapolated (this can produce countless estimates),
2) Area/density estimate of the in situ standing crowd at it’s peak in the PM in front of the Capitol (this can also produce countless estimates). and
3) Freedom Part to Capitol parade march in the AM (this can also produce countless estimates).
I’ve done my own estimates using all three of the above methodologies, the highest estimate from all three? One hunderd thousand.
Note: I’m in the process of writing a research paper on crowd estimates, I’ll be using this one as a primary example of what NOT to do. I’ll be including this one as part three of a paper tentatively titled “The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly”
Nuff said.
#141 Huh? Freeways jammed? Metro “reportedly” swamped?
Please present objective data to support your conjectures.
More likely “somewhat higher volumes at times with respect to a typical Saturday” would describe what occured with the transit systems.
#129
Seriously? ROTFLMFAO!
You people are the ones prolonging your own anguish.
I’m just here to right your sinking ship with respect to crowd estimates.
129. Delia: “111.: “Regardless, this is old news, the accepted number has been booked, as it were.”
It’s hilarity bordering on the absurd when attention starved, ankle-biting trolls post comments over and over on threads they supposedly regard as ‘old news’.
Is that the scent of fear and desperation hovering in the air? Why yes…I do believe it is…”
And once again, Delia counters empirical evidence with emoticons.
Nice.
Skylark, if you’re seriously going to try to argue that the twitter timestamp is wrong, you’re gonna have a helluva time making the case. Considering that millions of people use twitter everyday and all.
@145. U R Way Over The Top Again:
Please present objective data to support your conjectures.
Sorry you missed it. It was a joke. Tongue in cheek.
Peace.
DS
Troll overload!
Can’t deal with photographic evidence.
(in best james Kirk struggling tone…) “Must…downplay…numbers…Must…reduce…significance…”
Stalin’s Cheerleaders one and all.
ELC @ 137:
Unless the man was the one making the tweet estimate two days before, it was also the unofficial estimate of the fire department. And he did stand by it two days later, merely telling Politifact it was “unofficial.” He used the term “impressive” when asked a different question…comparing the crowd size to that in the 1997 picture.
Charlie Martin @ 148:
You’re right. It’s much more logical to assume the fire department was tweeting about a CNN report three hours before it occurred.
#150 Can’t deal with photographic evidence.
How so?
What photographic evidence?
Like these?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9655635@N08/sets/72157622351394164/
Or these?
http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=all&q=912dc&m=text
Or these?
http://gallery.me.com/bhauchter#100270&bgcolor=black&view=grid
Or these (US Army marching manuals describing the packing density of ORDERED marches)?
http://drummajor.net/1Manuals.htm
Or this?
http://www.stealthfusion.com/forum/fusion-research/4910-amazing-photos-9-12-march-washington-vs-usa-today-national-mall-schematic.html
Any other links to high quality videos or pictures (not already explicitly mentioned or linked to here) are most welcome, of course.
I believe the actual number is very much less important (Charles Johnson’s latest bizarre obsession notwithstanding) than the undisputed fact that a sh!tload of people went to the great trouble and expense of travelling to DC and showing up to express their displeasure with our government. Don’t forget, regular folks have never bothered to go to such lengths before, without a MAJOR reason to do so (think of MLK’s march on Washington, the goals of which the vast majority of decent Americans supported). Therefore, the concerted effort by the lib blogs and LGF (and where on the political spectrum he occupies at this time is hard to figure, given his current Sullivanization) to denigrate and downgrade the protest is irrelevant and laughable. But hey, they want to continue to brand us all as “far right,” “Nazis,” “Nirthers,” etc. Well, by all means, continue to insult the intelligence (and question and the integrity) of ordinary citizens; another election is coming just around the corner, and we’ll remember.
Question:
Can anyone provide the bona fides on the 4,500 (or is it now 4,700) chartered busses that’s been floating around the internets?
You know like a neutral 3rd party or other unambiguous objective data to support what appears to be a highly specious and dubious claim from what appears to be only from bloggers.
You know like the DC DMV;
http://dmv.dc.gov/foia.shtm
TIA
#154 … think of MLK’s march on Washington, the goals of which the vast majority of decent Americans supported …
I call BULLSHIT on that one;
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/foia/bostonjfk/text/Freedom%20March%20on%20Washington.php
Not at the time, it wasn’t, particularly from the very same demographic at that time, that makes up the vast majority of the very same demographic at this time.
Read ‘em and weep!
I can’t tell you how many people have said, “Why didn’t you tell me?! I would have gone, too!” I could kick myself for not being more vocal about it before we went. We need to hold another one. It’s expensive to travel so far, so maybe organize it so everyone can gather at a central spot in their states.
Can anyone provide the bona fides on the 4,500 (or is it now 4,700) chartered busses that’s been floating around the internets?
Me too, I’ve been trying to track that down.
Of course I’m right, Skylark.
It might be clearer if you were to actually look at the linked tweet, which is from 0943. That is to say, seventeen minutes before the CNN report, not three hours.
Although, frankly, the chance of it taking 3 hours for CNN to make a report public is greater than you imagine: you have to write the copy, pass it through an editor, and getting into the news stories stream.
But a little thought could help too: the whole notion of twitter is built about a time-ordered series of tweets, time stamps generated inside twitter. Unless you’re now suggesting a secret conspiracy inside twitter to mis-date that one tweet, I don’t think you’ve got an easy job of convincing anyone.
I have read dozens and dozens and dozena of these posts and am heartened by them all! Well – most of them.
I think a key point is being missed by the majority of the true posters here and that is that what you folks participated in is potentially a groundbreaking event. It is certainly an encouraging one. And not one whose quality or impact is dependent on the quantity!!
Come on folks! throughout recorded history and time and again, less than 2% of a population has effected enormous changes IN history.
“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.”
Continue; and persevere; and encourage; and come again next year. You have got this (me) one new attendee that will join you – God willing.
So next year you know you are plus one because of what you did by being there – go and recruit more…and so will I.
There is yet time to roll this incredible prostitution of our heritage back – if we all focus on the success that you enjoyed by committing and coming to the Capitol.
The very fact that the count is garnering all this jibber-jabber shows the impact you have made.
Follow thru!! don’t get distracted by sideline arguments (ncluding number of attendees)!!
Write your Congressman relentlessly.
Get your friends and neighbors who don’t like what is going on encouraged enough to be active participants in their government…..writing letters;calling their elected reps both local and national; doing op-ed letters; encouraging their friends; joining Tea Parties – oh – encourage them to become the “Chitter Chatter”! I cannot think of a more deserved and appropriate badge for a Patriot to envy.
Thanks to all you people who invested in going to DC for this event! We owe you!!
This whole matter of “how many” can easily be settled. We do it again, and each of us brings two friends. Simple, direct, and unequivocal. If they complain, we do it yet again, but this time without a permit, and on a Tuesday. After all, we have a Constitutional right to petition our government for redress of grievances. “Rights” are things we have which are not subject to negotiation, license, or other governmental permission slip before their exercise. It’s not the Bill of “Mother-May-I’s”, it’s the Bill of Rights. If three million of us show up on a Tuesday, what are they gonna do?
Charlie Martin @ 159:
I suggest you go back and read my post again. I was describing DC Fire Department tweets about a CNN report concerning the activity on the Potomac on September 11.
Here, I’ll excerpt and link to the tweet in question:
“# media line updated – 202 673 3700 – DC F&EMS has NO info about CNN report of activity on Potomac River – DC F&EMS has not been dispatched ……7:34 AM Sep 11th from web”
http://twitter.com/dcfireems/status/3912033702
And here’s an excerpt and link for the actual CNN report:
“Remembering 9/11; Suspicious Vessel in the Potomac
Aired September 11, 2009 – 10:00 ET
. . .
But there is other news that we need to get out to you. In fact, breaking news right now. We want to get to Jeanne Meserve. Jeanne, I know that you’ve been following this story for us. Happening in the Potomac, actually a restricted area in the Potomac and the Coast Guard is very much on alert and quite frankly engaged at this time.”
http://www.edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/11/cnr.02.html
To be perfectly clear:
“The incident began shortly before 10 a.m., when CNN journalists monitoring video from a Washington TV station saw Coast Guard vessels apparently trying to keep another vessel from passing.
. . .
After CNN heard the radio transmission saying 10 rounds had been expended, CNN went to air with the story.
At 10:23 a.m. ET, after CNN had aired its initial report, the spokeswoman said that she had heard the incident may have been an exercise but that she did not know the source of that information.”
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/09/11/potomac.boat/
——————————————-
So to recap, CNN reported the Potomac story shortly after 10 am on September 11.
But the DC Fire Department has a tweet on the CNN report time stamped nearly three hours earlier, at 7:34 am.
Magic !
PS to Charlie Martin -
I suppose it’s worth pointing out that the Fire Department tweet was also time stamped two hours BEFORE the Coast Guard exercise even began:
“He described the exercise, which started at 9:30 a.m., as a ‘low tempo’ drill.”
http://wcbstv.com/breakingnewsalerts/coast.guard.potomac.2.1177481.html
“During the exercise, which began about 9:30 a.m., four 25-foot patrol craft churned up the surface of the river while a Coast Guard helicopter zoomed low overhead.”
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-md.coastguard12sep12,0,255532.story
“The Coast Guard began the drill at 9:30 a.m., five minutes after Obama arrived at the Pentagon for ceremonies keyed to 9:37 a.m. – the time of the 9/11 attack.”
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-md.coastguard12sep12,0,255532.story
Another example for Charlie -
Let’s see, we know the DC Metro train crash occurred on June 22 at about 5pm.
“The collision and derailment occurred at about 5 p.m. local time between the Takoma and Fort Totten stations, Metro said in a statement.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aDEOYPitJJyE
“The crash around 5 p.m. EDT took place on the system’s red line, Metro’s busiest, which runs below ground for much of its length but is at ground level at the accident site near the Maryland border in northeast Washington.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,528203,00.html
Yet the DC Fire Department was tweeting about it two hours before it happened, if you go by the time stamp:
“5800 2nd st ne – metro collision – near ft. totten metro – several injuries. fd involved in rescues. …. 3:16 PM Jun 22nd from mobile web”
http://twitter.com/dcfireems/status/2285547558
——————————————————-
Should I look for more? This is kinda fun.
I would like to say how enthralled I am not only by the outpouring of patriotism of 9/12/09 but by the almost complete common sense, mature comments of the the posters to this article. The comments have been made, keep it up. Yes keep it up. That “O” clock is running to 11/2/10.
The liberal-leftist and outright socialist and even (so it appears) communists in D.C. ought to know a long term lease is not in their interest. Friends be aware their arrogance and dismissiveness of all things center right, as this will cause them to reach again to a manufactured crisis, we may all have to come back again short of the 11/2/10 date.
Manufacturing crises is a way of distraction, and the old media-the “O” media will play this all the time. We definitely have work to do especially as pertains to finding our candidates. I am hopeful you folks in Ohio and Illinois will help lead the way. We will see if the tone changes, but I am guessing it makes no difference to “US” the Tea Party. a large number of folks have to go home.
If I may one final thought, we must NOT! NOT! let subterfuge (from any quarter) distract us into any type of thinking about a third party. That will spell disaster. Lady Sarah, or Mr. Mitt, or Mayor Giuliani or any of our other national or well know regional leaders are where we must put our focus. Now a little twist on my sign off (please excuse the ego) everyone of us
“Check 6′ , yup startin to look pretty good.
This march on Washington is primarily about the reckless, out of control spending by the federal govt. If you really want to understand why it is happening then open your eyes and mind.
My eyes were opened when I first watched “The Constitution Class” series of videos by Michael Badnarik. Send all the links for them to your Congresspeople along with the link to this blog. Here is the first one…. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5085838350268647159&ei=sELlSfjQBYKGqQPE3O36Aw&q=michael+badnarik&emb=1# , google for the others. There are 7 of them, each approx. an hour long. You can download them.
I learned more about our Constitution and our country from these videos than I ever learned in school or in my whole life. I am now 53. Once I finished the series, I then looked to what our Govt. was currently doing. My eyes have been opened wide and I now can understand all that Mr. Beck has been trying to show us and what the dangers truly are. I think that these videos should be required viewing for all High School students across the nation. Especially now as they will be the “new voting base” in 2010. If your local teachers will not show them in your schools, see about obtaining Mr. Badnarik as a speaker in your hometown. Share the above link with everyone you possibly can. If I tell two friends, who tell two friends….etc.
To go about saving something, first you have to know what it is you are trying to save and why it matters so much! Educate our children, as they are the future of our country. I can now state that I am proud to be an “American Citizen” and not a “U.S. Citizen”. Watch the videos to know what the difference between the two are, and why, because it is very important to the future of this, our magnificent country! Thanks for reading this.
I guess Charlie doesn’t have an answer for me.
I was there and took video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcQ8kmxrujs
Also, Metrorail ridership shows an increase of about 40,000 people that day. If you go back to the Heritage Foundation post and read the ensuing discussion comments, you’ll see he made some big mistakes (doubled the count by counting 1-way trips as one person, used a holiday weekend as the baseline number). We don’t really know how many of those 40K were going to the rally vs. the Black Family Reunion, but we do know it’s the main mode of transportation into DC.
I haven’t read all the comments so maybe someone touched on this but what about all the other 9/12 protests across the nation. I know they were happening all over the place. There has been very little I’ve seen in the media (obviously) about this either. But I havn;t heard anything anything from more reliable news sources or talk radio about this fact either. Just a thought to consider.
I think this picture should be available to be purchased by the public as a picture to frame, bumper stickers, postage stamps and many other ways to keep the word out…”We The People” and as We The People do make a differince standing together and united! We must never forget our Vetarans and the great things they did for each of us.
Although, I was unable to attend the 9/12/2009 march in Washington D.C., I thank those who were able to be there as they were there for me too!
God Bless America
(With out God’s blessings, there is no America!)
Debbie Leonard
@ Skylark (151): “Unless the man was the one making the tweet estimate two days before, it was also the unofficial estimate of the fire department. And he did stand by it two days later, merely telling Politifact it was “unofficial.” He used the term “impressive” when asked a different question… comparing the crowd size to that in the 1997 picture.”
Here is the quotation from the article you referenced. Piringer did not “stand by” anything; one cannot infer anything more than he acknowledged the numbers that had been given; and he was not commenting on the photograph or the crowd in the photograph: the writer asked him if he thought the crowd on 9/12 was as big as the one depicted in the photo. Here is the relevant part of the article:
“Pete Piringer, public affairs officer for the D.C. Fire and Emergency Department, said the local government no longer provides official crowd estimates because they can become politicized. But the day of the rally, Piringer unofficially told one reporter that he thought between 60,000 and 75,000 people had shown up.
‘It was in no way an official estimate,’ he said.
We asked Piringer whether there were enough protesters to fill the National Mall, as depicted in the photograph.
‘It was an impressive crowd,’ he said. But after marching down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol, the crowd ‘only filled the Capitol grounds, maybe up to Third Street,’ he said.”
Either you cannot, indeed, comprehend what you read, or you were making a deliberate attempt to deceive people in these comments: either way, I’m wasting no more time on you.
Have a nice life.
Well ELC, perhaps it is you with a comprehension problem. I’m SURE you’re not making a deliberate attempt to deceive people.
Here is the comment of yours (@137) I was responding to:
“It was the man’s personal impression, not the DC Fire Department’s estimate. Nor did that man stand by his estimate: when asked about it, he merely said it was an impressive crowd.”
As I pointed out in my comment @ 157, it actually WAS the DC Fire Department’s unofficial estimate.
And contrary to your claim, he did not respond to a question about the estimate by “merely saying it was an impressive crowd.” He responded to a question about the estimate by saying it was “in no way an official estimate.”
His statement that it was “an impressive crowd” was in response to a question as to “whether there were enough protesters to fill the National Mall.”
Do try to keep your facts straight.