Media Stunned as ObamaCare Unravels
So now liberal pundits like Charles Blow must break it to their readers that “it stands to reason that many people probably don’t trust Washington on health care reform because, right now at least, they just don’t trust Washington.” You see, dear New York Times readers, while the Gray Lady has been cheerleading for Obama, many of your fellow citizens in flyover country have become angry and scared that we are spending and borrowing too much and soon will be taxed to make up for the spending binge.
What’s worse, the mainstream media’s glaring fumble comes in its area of supposed specialized knowledge: horse race politics. In fact, Washington Post ombudsman Andrew Alexander confesses that they’ve spent way too much time doing process stories during the health care debate. He writes:
In my examination of roughly 80 A-section stories on health-care reform since July 1, all but about a dozen focused on political maneuvering or protests. The Pew Foundation’s Project for Excellence in Journalism had a similar finding. Its recent month-long review of Post front pages found 72 percent of health-care stories were about politics, process, or protests.
In sum: in their area of presumed expertise and where their journalistic efforts have been most focused, mainstream news reporting and punditry were the most inept and most inaccurate. So now the mainstream media is in catch-up mode. Having quietly fretted as Obama’s poll numbers drifted lower and misrepresented the extent of independent voters’ support, they now must explain that the town hall crowds weren’t simply crackpots or dupes of the insurance industry. Those people are actually quite representative of the electorate — especially the electorate willing to turn out to vote in the 2010 congressional elections. And while they swooned at Obama press conferences, the media must now admit that Obama has been colossally ineffective at persuading the public.
The “catch-up” phenomenon is nothing new. We saw it with the Iraq war surge. For months and months the military, a few stalwart senators like John McCain and Joe Lieberman, conservative media outlets, and bipartisan military experts reported back that the surge was making a difference. The New York Times, the weekly not-much-news magazines, and the network broadcasts kept mum. But then shortly before then-candidate Obama was to visit Iraq, the mainstream media rushed to close the gap between the reality on the ground and their own gloom-and-doom reporting. It was catch-up time. The surge hadn’t suddenly worked; its success just couldn’t be ignored any longer.
It therefore shouldn’t come as a surprise that the mainstream media and their stable of Beltway pundits missed the boat on the public’s reaction to Obama’s health care offensive. Chatting mostly among themselves, susceptible to (if not anxious to pass on) Democratic talking points, and devoid of many (any?) conservative colleagues willing to challenge their assumptions, they are easily blindsided when reality intervenes.
So when looking for the next major news development or the next stumbling block for Obama, think about what’s not on the front pages of the major newspapers or on the cable or network evening news. Chances are, whatever the mainstream media is ignoring is the next really big story.
The real story is NOT Obamacare. Personally I believe the public’s disgust comes from two realizations. One they see a government that is not only out of control from a spending point of view but one that has nothing but contempt for them!! It is one thing when a politician IGNORES his constituents. That is the norm for the last 50 years or so. It is another thing when they start “namecalling”, demonizing, and insulting them. The final breach of the tender band of democracy is when the politicians start to “organize” opposition to their constituents with outside agitators, community organizers, marxists, radicals and other thugs. Now that is a pretty new game changer.
The second major realizatiion is that many people have finally realized that Obama is a fraud. He is not Mr Hope and Change. He is a liberal, radical, marxist who will do permanent damage to our country. His change mantra is all about taking us into a command and control politburo style soviet system of government. We did not spend the last 50 years fighting communist despots including the Soviet Union, China, North Korea and other marxists states to quietly turn the keys to the kingdom over to this Mr Coooool President who is a marxist. You have got to be kidding me.
Where we go from here is anybodys guess. However Obamacare is DOA in any form. However healthcare reform that stems from free market improvements will likely have broad support. It always did. Take a look and see if you identify ONE organization that has articulated HOW this will happen. They don’t think it will and still believe that Obamacare is inevitable.
Americans are sick and tired of government taking away their freedoms. Any further attempts to do so will play badly for those who try.
Tommy Gunn
The motives behind the Old Media’s resolute rejection of the newsworthiness of the rising anti-Obamunist / pro-small government movement are the really interesting part.
While it would be wrong to conclude that the motives are uniform, it’s reasonable to suggest that, in many editorial boardrooms, the attitude was “if we ignore it long enough, it will go away.” That would be consistent with American media’s overwhelming left-liberalism, for which there are powerful incentives built into the dynamics of both journalism and government.
Still deeper motives might include the belief that the tea partiers and anti-warmists really don’t know what’s good for them, or that it’s intrinsically unjust for some persons not to have health insurance, or a conviction, whether or not it’s ever articulated, that any opposition to the Obama agenda really is racist at its heart. All of this is essentially leftist in its assumptions and orientation.
We are blessed to have the Internet today…and the Old Media is crying into its beer for the very reason we celebrate it.
What’s a newspaper?
bada bing
Note to Liberals: Thus, those who oppose ObamaCare have matured to a level the adolescent has yet to achieve. And it is this very maturity that allows the opposition to understand the implied tasks of “death panels,” government-funded abortion, and free medical care for illegal aliens that the adolescent left vehemently denies exists in ObamaCare, even though it is clear these implied tasks are realistically deducible from the plain writing contained in the bill. And with Sarah publicly “outing” Obama as an adolescent president, is it any wonder the left is throwing a tempter tantrum?
The next question is: Will the MSM jump on the bandwagon and start critising their Beloved Leader?
Nice piece.
Love the “colossoly ineffective” characterization. You’re too kind.
The mainstream media have been eager accomplices in perpetrating fraud. How any of these amoral and immoral ‘journalists’ can show their face in public is beyond me. They’ve discredited an entire profession with their malpractice.
I don’t believe that they mis-judged the Tea Party/Smaller Govt movement. They knew exactly who we are and they rallied against us in an organized, concerted effort to undermine any opposition to their communist ideals and their leader, Obama. They are in collusion with this Admin to achieve the socialist ideal. Don’t give them any wiggle room away from that fact. They are a vital and willing, indeed, rabid partner in ushering in the re-making of America. They are literal traitors to the Constitution and their country. The BIG mistake that they made was employing their hateful Alinsky tactics on a national level against the middle class who was shaken from their political lethargy by the ridiculous, radical, and terrifying attempt to alter our country to a diametrically different society. Fellow middle class citizens saw their neighbors, their daughters, the small business folks they deal with and know called NAZIS, MOBSTERS, RACISTS, and FOOLS. They knew these charges were patently false. Whereas charges against politicians could be blown off as lies by the other side, no one could get away with outright heinous labels being applied to people whom they know are solid, good, hard working, tax paying citizens. Let the Leftist media lap dogs experience the scorn and disgust that they deserve. They are scum.
The media didn’t miss any boat. Most of them were obfuscating, intentionally propogandizing and censoring in order to save THEIR President’s hide.
The media is rotten. They are no longer staffed with reporters but with disseminators of Obamabot talking points.
“And Obama’s patient, didactic responses have not quieted the reaction, let alone built fresh support for a vitally needed overhaul of our expensive, dysfunctional health system.”
1. Broder must have been napping when Obama was delivering his reponses on TV: Dear Leader actually sounded impatient, frustrated, demagogic, and–as always–incredibly vague.
2. “…expensive…dysfunctional.” Broder still doesn’t understand that the American public is now applying those words to the Obama Administration itself.
I wish David Broder would finally go into a well-deserved retirement….and take Helen Thomas with him.
Three years ago I gave up my television when I realized that TV programming was essentially no different than TV advertising. The evil box had become like the Sharper Image catalogue, full of flashy junk I have no use for. Ideas from the punditry had become just another sales pitch like something from the mouth of Billy Mays.
Are television pundits now playing catch-up on the public reaction to health care? I’ll offer you another analogy. When the latest product offered by the Shopping Channel bombs after a three minute spree, it gets yanked and a new piece of garbage is flashed on the screen for public appraisal. The problem with the punditry is that they believe their own advertising shtick.
Mr. Hope ‘n Change was never anything more than a dollar store trinket, but people bought the glitzy image. Once the packaging is tossed aside, the customer realizes he’s been had. Meanwhile, the media is loathe to offer a money back guarantee even as they prepare a new advertising blitz designed to sell us the next piece of trash.
Do yourself a favor; kill your TV. You’ll be a better person for the experience.
People like 7. Mark Epstein don’t read, or can’t read.
The TRUTH about the health care debate:
1) You will have choice in what health benefits you receive.
The government will require that participating plans not refuse people with preexisting conditions and offer at least minimum coverage, just as it does now with employer-provided insurance plans and Part D.
The requirements will be floors, not ceilings, however, in that the Feds will have no say in how generous private insurance can be.
2) Chemo for older Medicare patients.
The House bill does not use the word ‘ration’. Nor does it call for cost-effectiveness research, much less implementation.
What we can say is that there is de facto rationing under the current system, by both Medicare and private insurance.
3) Illegal immigrants will not get free health insurance.
The House bill says that ‘individuals who are not lawfully present in the USA’ will not be allowed to receive subsidies.
4) Death panels is a morbid lie.
This lie springs from a provision in the House bill to have Medicare cover OPTIONAL counseling on end-of-life care for any senior who REQUESTS it.
5) The government will not set doctors’ wages.
But while page 127 of the House bill says that physicians who choose to accept patients in the public insurance plan would receive 5% more than Medicare pays for a given service, doctors can refuse to accept such patients; and, even if they participate in a public plan, they are not salaried employees of it any more than your doctor today is an employee of, say Blue Cross.
I’m involved in a Tea Party organization. What has amazed me the most is the number of individuals you speak with who start out by saying, “I’ve never been political before but now I’m fed up.” The same is true for me as well.
The media doesn’t and can’t understand (heads up their butts) that Obama is simply the straw that broke the camel’s back. This has been brewing for a while. Obama told the banking execs that he was the only thing standing between them and the people with the pitchforks. The pols in Washington don’t seem to realize that there’s no one between them and the pitchforks now.
9. UsaBruce:
I think you are exactly right. Good post.
@9 UsaBruce
Fellow middle class citizens saw their neighbors, their daughters, the small business folks they deal with and know called NAZIS, MOBSTERS, RACISTS, and FOOLS. They knew these charges were patently false
Bravo. In a perfect world you would be an award winning journalist.
Never, in my long and quite marvelous life in the US, as far back as WW2, did I ever fear for the safety of our country. I never conceived I would be thinking, let alone writing a post such as this–
But I now am deeply concerned for our future.
The take over plan is simple and half complete-
1. Impoverish the US-Done.
2. Reduce our international standing and international military
influence. Nearly done.
3. As a result of #2, hasten an international enemy to make a terrorist attack on us.
4. As a result of #3,declare an emergency wherein all communications can be taken over and martial law declared.
5. Practically bloodless coup achieved and done so internally.
Please Americans-do not allow this scenerio to happen!
6 (Rick): It’ll never happen. They’re too much ideologically in sync with Obama, and they’ve hitched their wagon to him by jettisoning any pretense of objectivity and openly backing and covering for him. If he goes down, so do they.
Playing catch-up my ass; It’s actually C.Y.A.
Hagiography on parade, as usual.
Tax increases? Have people noticed the cost of everything rising due to the decrease in value of the dollar? This is just starting people. The coming hyper-inflation coupled with unemployment and overwhelming state debt will bury the Democrat party.
In related news, a provision deeply hidden in the main health bills before Congress provides $50M for roulette wheels to be installed in doctor’s offices.
You know, since our established aristocracy of elected-for-life politicians keep flinging around the accusation that the Tea Partiers are all Republican-funded, or an astro-turf effort by big corporate interests, I wonder why the mainstream media can’t be bothered to make a serious effort to investigate. Hey, call up the local Tea Party, talk to the organizers, and make some sort of effort. Cultivate a Deep Throat, get to the bottom of all this talk. Follow the money, as it were.
Except that: Number One – they probably can’t be bothered, and Number Two – finding out that no, it’s being funded by people passing the hat at meetings and begging for small contributions through their local Tea Party website would really upset the talking points.
Oh, and as a side note, just to get the meme out there? Using the epithet “tea-bagger” in a discussion about the Tea Party is like using the word “ni**er” in a discussion about civil rights. If good manners and political correctness keeps you from using the n-word, why should you get a pass on using the the t-b word?
Now the MSM pundits are making their next shortsighted mistake by seeing the Republicans as “scaring seniors” and turning them against Obamacare.
Sure, seniors are outraged but it’s not just the seniors. Nor was it the Republicans who set off the outrage. Obama and the progressive Democrats did it and have themselve to blame.
The Dems and the MSM just can’t quite grasp that American citizens are rising up on their own to stop radicals in government fropm trashing the Constitution.
The MSM only cares about itself. The only reason they are upset is because they are now starting to realize that they DO NOT CONTROL people like me who can think for themselves and love this country. We see a Marxist Socialist and his puppet news organizations for the traitors that they are – CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC and CBS.
Quite interestingly, I read an article in today’s Investor’s Business Daily about how the MSM has been protecting liberal politicians for years. This article is about how Ted Kennedy actually wanted to work with the Soviet Union to undermine Ronald Reagan. If this doesn’t make you angry like it made me mad, I don’t know what will. Here’s the link: (I hope that it works because I’m not sure if you need to be a subscriber.) – “Kennedy, the KGB and the Media.”
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=504868&Ntt=kennedy
This mea culpa from the media is 300 days late and 3 trillion dollars short.
Ms. Rubin:
It was a lot simpler than that.
The MSM bought the Administration’s sales pitch, and tried mightily to pass the load of bunk along to the public, who rightfully saw at once that the entire thing was nothing more than a pitch to:
“Give us more of your money!”
and balked.
The MSM, which thinks almost as highly of Obama and Congressional Liberal Democrats as it does of it’s own powers of persuasion became quite cross and hurt when this happened.
The fact is, this thing is the same turd it was in 1993, this time it was excreted out of Congress rather than being floated out of the White House.
The MSM and the Worship-The-Democratic-Socialist-State crowd had truly convinced themselves that this would make all the difference.
Oh…an addendum to my comment above.
They also badly misjudged how far their jalopy could go on a gallon of Bush Derangement Syndrome.
For a lot of ordinary citizens, the Bush years are rapidly starting to look like The Golden Years.
…you know, when people had,like, a job and a house of their own and money in their 401K?
I read David Broder’s piece and his earlier piece he linked to in his article where he predicted the backlash that he now says did not happen. The explanation of why he is so clueless is contained in that earlier piece. He’s so far into his Washington bubble that he has no real grasp of the facts on the ground. He keeps talking about Republican leaders this and Republican leaders that and seems completely unaware that Republican leaders have had virtually nothing to do with the Tea Party protests or the anger at the recent towh halls. He can only see things in terms of Washington, D.C. and the binary division between Big Governmnent Democrats and Big Government Republicans. He thinks the only things that matter are defined in those terms. There is a whole rest of the country out there that doesn’t even seem to register on his radar. So no wonder he doesn’t understand it and can’t predict how it will react.
What’s even sadder is that in the article predicting a backlash, he says there are no polls (yet) to indicate how things are playing out so he cites editorials in a Detroit newspaper and other newspapers as evidence of the mood of the country. As if a slew of editorials in the overwhelmingly left and left-leaning mainstream media that went completely in the tank for Obama in the last election is a fair representation of what the country as a whole thinks. Again, he’s so lost in his Washington bubble he doesn’t have a clue that there’s a whole world out there that doesn’t worship at the feet of him, his media pals, and the far left of the Democratic party.
“The BIG mistake that they made was employing their hateful Alinsky tactics on a national level against the middle class who was shaken from their political lethargy by the ridiculous, radical, and terrifying attempt to alter our country to a diametrically different society.”
You make it sound like this was purely a calculated strategy. However, the Left (not to mention the entire political/bureaucratic class, with few exceptions) truly believes that the vulgar bourgeoisie middle class is truly a bunch of “nazis, mobsters, racists, and fools” that needs to be forced into submission for the good of society.
I never would have thought that all that time I spent reading Karl Marx in college would come in handy in trying to understand with a (sadly) large cohort of Americans.
I hate to be the one to break this unflattering news flash, but except for people like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh – the most hatefully despised of all the left’s hatefully despised – we’ve had the same thing going on among virtually all conservative pundits, writers and commentators since the day Al Gore failed to carry his own home State and, thus, lost the 2000 Election.
Every single outrageous attack on conservatism by the left and the media has been met with doe-eyed, feigned perplexity – as if no single writer wants to be the one to call a spade a spade.
Well here it is: the socialist does not compromise in good faith. Every successful compromise for the left is a victory, not a concession. Every year they return, asking for more of the People’s freedom and more of the People’s wealth. And conservatives, libertarians and classical liberals have continued compromising, coddling the left as though they are dealing with fully-realized adults who have a rational worldview and a reasonable position on social policy despite all historical evidence demonstrating that neither is the case.
And when the socialist does something transparently indicative of the left’s true ideological goals, what happens? Conservative punditry feigns perplexity – “Gee, we keep giving these people what they want. Why are they now lying about and trying to ban semi-automatic weapons? Why are they lying about the federal response to Katrina? Why are they distorting the facts on Iraq and Saddam and insisting ‘Bush Lied’ when we know the corrupt U.N. and half the UNSC lied? Where does their appetite for seizure of the private sector end?”
And on and on, until we find ourselves in today’s world – where 2 + 2 = 5 and very little makes any sense anymore.
The ‘flyover’ citizens of this country haven’t been fooled by all this, they simply weren’t paying all that much attention. One day they woke up and realized the increasingly power-hungry State was about to usurp control over an element of their lives they literally can’t live without. They’re drawing a line in the sand. That the People, themselves, are now being demonized by the left’s entrenched, lying, Fifth Column media shills – just like Bush and the Republican Party have been – is nothing more than the continuation of a winning strategy the left has employed, interrupted only by a brief distraction on 9/11/01, since November of 2000.
This line drawn by the People should have been drawn decades ago by conservative political leadership – so-called, since that no longer exists – but they were too busy compromising with moral adolescents, feigning perplexity at the shocking results and standing by, dumbfounded, while people like Coulter and Limbaugh drew fire for pointing out the truth.
One more item – the nabobs who created Medicare are now shocked, shocked! that the seniors who have grown dependent on this entitlement are now rebelling at anything that could possibly cut their benefits.
Once the entire American populace is forced into Obamacare, can you imagine the uproar when cuts will have to be made in services to keep it fiscally viable?
The ruling class thinks they’re seeing a revolt now? They have no idea what could be in the offing.
I AM FOR HEALTH CARE REFORM.
Immediately cancel all PUBLIC OFFICIAL plans, force them into the private sector AND pay for it on their own.
Immediately cancel all UNION plans and FORCE them into the private sector, AND pay for it on their own.
IN 2010 VOTE OUT LIBERAL REGRESSIVES and MARXISTS (who are 90% DEMOCRATS).
12. vivo:
You betray a stunning lack of knowledge of the way the world works. The purpose of the “public option” is to create a bottomless pit of money which no private insurer can compete with. Once Obamacare has put all private insurers out of business, there will be no more choices. Costs will be what bureaucrats say they will be. When they can’t control costs, they will control services– that is, by rationing. This doesn’t have to be explicit in the bill to be real.
We ELECT Representatives to VOTE our views in CONGRESS.
We don’t need the DNC or RNC to use OUR money to BUY votes.
Citizens MUST TAKE BACK THEIR COUNTRY.
Hold YOUR OWN Town Hall meetings. Don’t invite the incumbent, but invite their opposition or better yet, hold a citizens PERFORMANCE REVIEW of your elected officials. Don’t stop at Federal Level – include State and Local officials as well.
You get a performance appraisal at work – why not Congress, State and Local officials as well.
It’s time the loudmouth activists are pushed off the stage and let REAL CITIZENS speak for themselves.
Cancel all media subscriptions until 2010 election is over.
That will insure a more fair election. It will help to eliminate those who don’t contribute to growing GDP.
Americans know one thing for certain. Washington rarely keeps anyone honest including themselves. Murtha, Burris, Rangel, Daschle, Jefferson, Cunningham are all scions of virtue. Occasionally Washington catches someone, Madoff, Stanford, Enron. Occasionally they look they other way, Fannie Mae, B. Frank’s bank. But saying a government health plan option would keep anyone honest is insane. In the same sentence they describe $50,000,000,000 per year in waste, fraud and abuse. Why arent they going after that right now. Its like saying the $35,000,000,000 lost to waste, fraud and abuse this year is water under the bridge.
30. goy:
“Every single outrageous attack on conservatism by the left and the media has been met with doe-eyed, feigned perplexity – as if no single writer wants to be the one to call a cracker a cracker.”
Amen, brother.
9. “I don’t believe that they mis-judged the Tea Party/Smaller Govt movement. They knew exactly who we are and they rallied against us in an organized, concerted effort to undermine any opposition to their communist ideals and their leader, Obama.”
Absolutely right. After, all their shameless support was the only reason a worthless, left-wing radical hype-artist like Obama could get elected.
The teabaggers were not ignored.
As a matter of fact Barney Frank did an excellent job of showing America what the teabagging was all about.
Teabaggers = Failure
Unless you’d like to count the few sane republicans coming on board with the democrats after witnessing the ignorance of the Town Hall shouters.
“Keep your government hands off my Medicare”
Some great comments. I do think that the media, blocking for congress/liberals, did have a “ignore it and it’ll go away attitude” as mentioned above regarding the Tea Parties and Townhalls. And as rightly pointed out that in doing so and then carrying water for the “Nazi/undpatriotic” name calling left deprived themselves of the ability to ever be heard effectively again because there were no stories or segments devoted to “hey, these people might just have a point.” Combine this with the “civil disobedience” of the last 8 years regarding Iraq, Afghanistan, SS, immigration and the like, congress and the inability of the left to at least admit “yeah, we probably did go a bit overboard” and the MSM complicit in not pointing that out to the public just made the public that much more determined to be noticed.
I think many folks view the media’s “leg thrill” effort in 2008 as just that. They helped elect one of their college classmate who transcended the bounds on campus interacting with not only “eggheads,” but also the sport team and the prom queen cliques. “He’s one of us, he’s cool enough, and gosh darn it, people like him (or they will when we get done)” I think was how many journo types approached last fall as a self vindication of not being invited to the coolest college parties or dating the prettiest girl in class and took it out revenge style by helping elect one of their own.
This is obviously evident from MSLSD, CNN, and including people such as David “see the crease in his pants” Brooks, Kathleen Parker and Peggy Noonan to an extent. Even when the Republicans were in power they were never liked. People like this have a need to be consistently approved of and search for whereever that will come from. I think this goes with the territory. If you’re a columnist and not liked, you’re not a columnist for long. Though, there are notable exceptions, PJM, Rush, Hannity, and others who have the mind set of “this is who I am and what I do, take it or leave it.”
Additionally, and more importantly to the nation, during the last 7 months and much to the chagrin of the MSM, Obama has been laid bare before the country and the emperor has no clothes. When you’re in campaign mode, mistakes happen, things are sometimes said without thinking, and just the daily grind of travel makes it imperative that when you step before the microphone you have a consistent message. Pick two or three topics/themes and drive those home on a daily basis. Once elected, there are many more balls than hands available to juggle them and that’s where experience comes in. He doesn’t have it.
Obama’s “not above 8% unemployment” followed by “it was much worse than we imagined” cannot stand scrutiny when you play ad nauseum his “this is the greatest crises since the Depression,” “if we don’t pass the stimulus the world will come to an end” diatribe passing itself off as leadership. You can’t say the world is coming to an end so do this and then say the world coming to an end was worse than we thought. That’s where experience, not getting too far ahead of yourself and leadership come in. At that point, no matter how hard the MSM tried to cover with “he’s trying,” “people didn’t expect this to be so severe,” “there’s so many things that need to be done” just didn’t fly with the American public. They took him at his word because the hope-n-changey thing really let you see whatever you wanted to see last year. And then allowing for basically 75% of the money to be spent in 2010 and after, following all the rhetoric, just didn’t make sense to people who were told the world was coming to an end if we didn’t act immediately. And then waiting 4 days to sign it defies stupidity.
Following this error, he proceeded to double down with healthcare. The simple fact is, because of his missteps on the stimulus, rhetoric and a slew of lefty promises (closing Gitmo, eveasdropping, Predator strikes) whether you agreed with them or not, his “word” lost much of it’s standing. Add to this the fact that at that precise moment, just as the healthcare debate was going from “ram thru” to “slow down” (because after all, we are talking about the gov’t running healthcare) Cash for Clunkers appeared on the scene with all it’s ineptitude. “If the gov’t can’t run C4C, how is it going to run healthcare” is a question the WH nor the left could answer. The plan which was quickly and shabbily put in place had a much bigger impact on the healthcare debate than has been acknowldeged. At teh very least, it made people take notcie because everyone uses healthcare and almost everyone knew someone who participated in the C4C program and naturally drew parallels between the two. And when compared to S1.5T idea, a $3B program that can’t be run correctly, I believe really damaged this initiatitive.
But at the end of the day, I think many people just don’t feel he’s up to the task. Much of his public life has been gliding above everything waiting to see what the outcome is and then jumping on the train just before it leaves the station and taking credit for bringing everyone together on board. That’s easy to do when you’re talking about spending either $5B or $8B on a program. It’s just a matter of degrees on a policy with the rest of your brethren in the same bubble who all agree at least $5B should be spent.
Finally (sorry for the long post), when folks are having a hard time, saving, scrimping or choosing the least of two bad alternatives, the last thing they want to hear from their president is “It’s not my fault.” And that’s basically what he’s done with the economy and healthcare. People cancelling the premium portion of their cable bill don’t believe it’s their fault either, but realize they didn’t run for president claiming to be able to fix the problem. OTOH, nor do that want to hear “they’re just talkers, whiners and rabble-rousers and they just need to move aside” when people have legitimate questions.
The president is elected to lead. Outsourcing the stimulus (which will prevent the end of the world) and then healthcare (which everyone uses at some point) to Nancy/Harry/Henry/Barney etc, the president pissed away any rationale for electing him after having run on post-partisan-I can-bring-people-together-I-am-the-One-we’ve-been-waiting-for mantra. That is why his numbers are falling and will continue to fall.
I firmly believe had the left taken it’s lumps this August and every Dem member of congress held townhalls 2-3 times a week, regardless of length, opposition and size of audience, that would have gone a long way to making Americans believe this president and their representatives were listening to them. And when his Casey at the bat moment came (his last press conference) – he couldn’t explain his healthcare program in short, simple answers. I think that’s when the tide became tidal. He then left most people with the thought that he actually had paid attention at Trinity by jumping into the Gates affair, invited them for a beer and then went on vacation. The emperor truly has no clothes and no matter how hard the MSM tries to cover him up, they can’t. If anyone doesn’t think this is true, watch what audience share he gets at his next news conference. Barring a major catastrophe, people aren’t going to tune in. This is quite a fall in 5 months for a guy many thought was a messiah.
In the liberal media’s world, only trust fund kids, illegal aliens, and communist front groups are allowed to protest in America. Everyone else shut-up, pay your taxes, and let the elites tell you how to live your lives.
I was perplexed when David Broder predicted a pro-Obama backlash to the town halls; however, the only real backlash came from President Obama himself when he called his union thugs, the Purple Shirts in the SEIU, & the ACORN groups to counter the real Americans’ rejection of Obamacare. Yet the pro-Obama backlash has been marginal since they get their orders from President Obama or his stand-ins within the unions. The thugs only made the anti-Obamacare folks more mad & more determined to vote against the shiftless, spineless Democrats & their union defenders.
The MSM must now acknowledge that the anti-Obamacare people are not mobs, Republican astroturf, Nazi’s, but simply ordinary Americans rejecting President Obama’s Fascism. However, the MSM is still in the tank for Obama & will rationalize anything to get Obamacare passed. The MSM are within a bubble from the real world which makes them even less trustworthy than ever before. The MSM is going to try to find a narrative to get Obamacare passed. Yet this will easily backfire too as the MSM claims to be objective in their reports.
In the real world, the rejection of Obamacare–in any form–will grow. The Democrats cannot hoodwink the Sleeping Giant.
The thing with the liberal media and liberals in general, is that they are in love with Europe and somehow think that Americans can morph into Europeans. Having lived in Europe, I can tell you- no way, no how, will Americans become Europeans. Americans simply have a different mindset and feel empowered not to take garbage from someone. We don’t look on others as our “superiors” and that we are inferior (unless you’re one of those idiotic celebrity obsessors, but then, you’ll outgrow that one day). We aren’t afraid to raise our voices, literally. Europeans find Americans so brash and loud, overbearing and confident, but deep down they wish they had our freedom with everything, including freedom of feeling. The liberal media completely mis-understands this, can’t comprehend the ownership Americans feel in our country, why we cheer the kick-butt, can-do attitude, totally reject the wussy/wimpy uber-liberal only squishy feelings matter. Too many Americans have been minding their own business and haven’t paid as much attention to Obama’s power grabs and changing our government, but Americans are starting to pay attention, to the liberals dismay.
You’re scared, so you’re angry, so you lose.
@31. Percy Dovetonsils (awesomest handle): – One more item – the nabobs who created Medicare are now shocked, shocked! that the seniors who have grown dependent on this entitlement are now rebelling at anything that could possibly cut their benefits.
The Won completely missed the boat there. He had a perfect opportunity – and all the necessary data – to explain to the nation how Medicare is bankrupt. He could have offered his death-plan-disguised-as-a-health-plan to retirees as a way of protecting their entitlements. Since he blames Bush and the Republicans for every other government ill caused by the left, no reason Medicare should have been different.
The MSM can not be castigated enough for their blanket bias and non-objective coverage of the news. Their public service is little more than a propaganda wing of whom they favor. That is demonstrated for both parties. The talking heads should come with a warning label as to opinions and facts. Political-facts could be considered as oxy-morons.
The nearly impossible problem with returning objectivity and dignity to the newcasters is in the dangerous potential of regulation. Castigating the self destructive is probably want they want anyway. Turning them off is a small start. It looks like we will have to suffer with our own discernment in sifting the lies and outcrys for what is important to our own survival. Life is not fair and the MSM does their best to promote that chaotic ideal.
Hejsan:
“Americans simply have a different mindset”
Yes they do. American’s are stupid. They pay twice what everyone else does for the same level of care and believe the Limbaugh and Coulter and Fox lies simply because they are too ignorant to think for themselves. And too poor to actually visit a place with a superior health care system.
vivo:
1) You will have choice in what health benefits you receive. – Of course, if you want more you’ll pay more. And the “richer” the plan you choose to pay for, it has been suggested these rich plans be taxed. And it is not how the healthcare debate has been presented. It has been presented that those not insured will recieve – in not so many words of congress – something very close to what they have.
2: You can’t take a healthcare system that right now has finite resources and add to it ~40M people and say nothing is going to change. It’s impossible NOT to make accomodations to one “group” and not take it from somewhere else.
3: There is NO mechanism to check for being legally here. Hell, we argue about checking ID’s at the voting booth for which you could argue based on 120M votes, doesn’t cost you anything and you get nothing tangible in return. You really think they’re going to include a mandatory, let’s see if they’re here legally and ENFORCEABLE mechanism to make sure they’re legal? I didn’t think so. Therefore, by default (meaning if they’re not excluded they’re included) illegal aliens will be eligible.
4: There are no death panels. But any organization sending out pamphlets or has reading material they direct you to regarding end of life counseling is really trying to make sure you’re not a “drag” on the system. Various diseases (typically terminal ones) do have reading material available. I’m pretty sure AARP doesn’t send one out with you’re enrollment. The implication, if they did, would be to include it for the mere reason that your have attained a certain age.
“Polls don’t matter. Conservatives don’t live by polls.” Sean Hannity
“Reagan proved deficits don’t matter.” Dick Cheney
Stay firm, folks. Don’t waver on your principles, whatever they may be today.
To say the msm missed the story is to imply that they simply made a mistake. This is not just about socialized medicine. This is about the gross ineptness of the govenment and people are sick of it.
Just remember that everyday the federal, state, county and city governments and their departments and agencies are passing laws and regulations to control YOU.
How about we hang Pelosi, Boehner, McConnell, and Reid in the capital rotunda. (Figuratively speaking) Leave them there so the other members of congress can see and smell their putrid rotting corpses and know they are next if they don’t start listening to the people.
The MSM is a propaganda bureau! That fact has to be hammered home at every opportunity.
Media is evolving, the internet will soon make propaganda news outlets impotent and inconsequential. We can hasten their demise by holding their feet to the fire and turning up the burner. Technology in media and news will continue to evolve and new writers will emerge. Video capabilities will improve so that millions of amateurs carrying inexpensive video cams will be able to present more accurate and timely news than the MSM.
Soon their big salaries and budgets will disappear and their propaganda mission will be cosidered so much flotsam and jetam to be forgotten as an embarrassing period of American History.
I say to you people, report, analyze, and develop your skills. The future is literally in your hands, treat it with honesty and integrity and the world will be at your door. In five years we will laugh at this formative stage of technology, so now is the time to stay ahead of technology and the news. New ideas and novel concepts in opinion will help prevent a confused Marxist Ideologue being elected in a scam and hype election.
We have begun to expose the MSM as a propaganda instrument of the Marxist Front, it is time to deliver the coup de gras.
Continue on Patriots, you make me proud to be an American.
34 Mad-as-H….yes.
43. Now and Then:
“You’re scared, so you’re angry, so you lose.” Ah, ha!! That would explain why, every single time Al Gore does any public speaking, he’s yelling and his veins are standing out.
33. Tyrone Slothrop wrote:
12. vivo:
You betray a stunning lack of knowledge of the way the world works.
Peter writes: Tyrone, vivo is very well aware of how the world works. Unfortunately for a lot of readers here at PJM, all he ever does is spout off the same lib talking points, no matter how often or in how many different threads these so-called points have been debunked and refuted.
vivo and his/her/its ilk are not here to debate and share ideas. They are here merely to gum up the discussion and get paid by the post by groups like Soroes. It is easier to simply ignore them and move on to the next post.
Jennifer Rubin accurately nails the useful idiots of the MSM with this piece. As a group they are out of touch with the story they are supposedly covering. They choose not to analyze the bill, and instead, write about the horse race. Is it any wonder that en masse they can’t fathom the opposition of people who have actually read the legislation?
One thing that amazes me is the liberal willingness to climb aboard the rat infested ship that is Obamacare and expect to be deposited on the far shore. When Bush 1 agreed to new taxes it was consrvatives like me who were his fiercest critics. When Bush 2 created that silly medicare prescription drug burden and no child left behind, it was, once again, conservatives who nailed him for the legislation’s stupidity and negative impact on the federal deficit.
I have heard virtually no liberal criticism of this ill thought out HB3200, other than threatened abandonment by the left if the public option is removed. They seem unwilling to acknowledge what a poor piece of draftmanship it is. The MSM furthers this by failing to analyze the legislation in a meaningful way.
President Obama’s popularity is in freefall now largely because American independents are waking up to who he actually is and what he actually stands for. They are discovering that his campaign image, which was unchallenged by the MSM, was fraudulent and misleading.
The MSM’s credibility is further damaged by the revelations facts actually uncover. They didn’t think about the consequences of their uncritical salesmanship on their future bottom line as they shamelessly promoted their candidate.
I can’t say I am sorry they are suffering now. Because of their lack of independence and any contact with objective journalism, I am looking forward to reading the obituary of the Sulzeburger papers and those paragons of “news”, MSNBC, NBC, CBS and ABC along with many other dailies and weeklies. They are incredible in the truest sense of the word. That’s why they can’t get the Obamacare story correct and why I shut them off as a source of any useful information years ago.
Are you still glad that you voted for Obama?
Now&Then,
You’re brain-washed, so you’re incoherent, so you remain a loser.
jharp:
“American’s are stupid. They pay twice what everyone else does for the same level of care and believe the Limbaugh and Coulter and Fox lies simply because they are too ignorant to think for themselves.”
Classic liberal hogwash:
First, the hyperbole: we don’t pay anywhere near twice as much as a % of GDP. And part of the reason we pay so much is that the rest of the world is sucking off our R&D like parasites. We develop half of the new drugs and sell them at cost in EU and Canada only because those sales contribute a small marginal profit. Our drug companies could affort not to sell to Europe and Canada from a profitability standpoint (but of course those @ssholes would simply violate our patents).
Second, what you are witnessing is PRECISELY Americans thinking for ourselves, reading for ourselves (i.e., reading HR3200 which none of our ‘leaders’ have done-including Zerobama), and making economic judgments for ourselves.
Rather than listen to some complete idiot with the economic acumen of a sowbug tell us how 18% of our economy is going to be structured so as to ignore the lessons of hundreds of years of free market capitalism, we have taken it upon ourselves to think this one through. Rather than be railroaded into a fait accompli without a debate, we have taken it upon ourselves to push back at those who themselves are absolutely ignorant of the provisions in the bill they are pushing. Rather than trust Congress to get it right with something that will affect EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, we have chosen enlightened skepticism based on decades of underperformance that assumes these fools couldn’t get an accurate count of their bellybuttons in a bathtub.
It is so refreshing when snarky liberals explain to us how stupid we are, how we are incapable of recognizing our own self-interest. You cannot even begin to imagine what an effective technique this is in persuading and influencing people. It is the support like yours that has enabled Obambi’s ratings to plummet faster than any president in history. Thanks for the advice, but I don’t need Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh (other than to provide humorous commentary at the expense of liberal jerks and knaves).
While the Chinese have made noises that they won’t sell off their US holdings, they have not made any promises to fund ObamaCare through further buying more US T bills.
The Left’s junior jihadis (our lovable trolls) are clearly flat-footed now. Like chimps gone wild, they’re throwing out their usual excrement but it won’t stick here. They just end up wearing it themselves. Keep pitching, guys. It suits you to a T.
What we have seen in the town halls of August is just the tip of the return to traditional values. I base this on a recent email from a woman who is a graduate of Bucknel, born in Pennsylvania, raised in New Jersey, very quiet, very conservative. Never before would she consider going to a town hall or TEA party. She emails me this morning that she will attend a TEA party and is making her sign. I am flabbergasted. If such a quiet, unassuming woman will leave the extreme comfort of her beautiful home and go to any political event this administration is doomed. America is waking up to the disaster this administration has brought to America. The tipping point has been reached when my friend sallies forth with her sign and her anger.
One of the biggest cons in House Bill 3200 is the following relative to illegal aliens and health care: ‘individuals who are not lawfully present in the USA’ will not be allowed to receive subsidies.
What about the millions of foreign tourists annually who are “lawfully present in the USA?” What about the millions of non-citizens on legitimate (but temporary) work permits who are “lawfully present in the USA?” Why do we get to pay for them?
Big business Neo Cons mad at the town halls. Lunatic fringe tea parties. Nothing new there. However, the media being stunned. Now the media being stunned, bitten or chewed up… anything but happy, would surely make my right wing friends very happy indeed.
As for heatlth care in America. Its a mess. And everyone except the cast of “lost” knows that. We need health care reform now. By getting a better system in place than we have now, it will truly make our country a better place. For everyone. So whether your a lune,a con or a lib, we should all be supporting reform now.
Didn’t Republicans oppose Social Security and Medicare…let us keep up this great tradion.
@60. The Toad: – What about the millions of non-citizens on legitimate (but temporary) work permits who are “lawfully present in the USA?” Why do we get to pay for them?
Remember the Big Picture.
This clause was specifically worded in the context of the rest of the Socialist Democrats’ agenda. If they pass amnesty legislation, then the illegal aliens who qualify are suddenly – ta-daaaaaaah! – lawfully present in the USA.
Jennifer,
As other commenters here have said, you are incorrect implying that the MSM is playing catch up due to incompetence. You are much too kind, and you are understating the situation by a wide margin.
The MSM is playing catch up only because they realize that their arrogant, intentional lies can’t reasonably be believed any longer. With a few exceptions, the MSM no longer contains any reporters or journalists. Nearly all of them have happily transformed themselves into PR agents for the DNC, and into mindless, servile cult members for Obama.
Their blatent and sneering disregard for even the most basic of truths, or of fairness, is just staggering. They see it as their personal duty and obligation to say whatever they can, true or not, to promote hard-left people and ideas, and to utterly destroy conservative people and ideas.
Their intentions and their actions have absolutely nothing to do with journalism. They are well aware of this, and they are all too happy to knowingly abuse their positions and their power to disseminate profoundly dishonest, hard-left brain washing and propaganda.
I hope any future articles that you might write on this topic do not miss the mark as badly as this one did. The time to be polite for its own sake, has long since come and gone.
Vivo and Jharp have again successfuly lowered the I.Q. level of another comment thread. Whenever I see their handles I know to skip their comments as immaterial to the discussion.
@64. Wil: – I hope any future articles that you might write on this topic do not miss the mark as badly as this one did. The time to be polite for its own sake, has long since come and gone.
Amen, brother!!
PD Quig:
“Rather than listen to some complete idiot with the economic acumen of a sowbug tell us how 18% of our economy is going to be structured so as to ignore the lessons of hundreds of years of free market capitalism, we have taken it upon ourselves to think this one through.”
The 18% you speak of is already composed of 35% Medicare spending and 11% Medicaid spending.
It is estimated that the public plan would compromise an additional 10%.
So if you’d like to be accurate about it. (I doubt you will). The government takeover (it’s not a takeover) you speak of is simply another 10% of 18% of our economy.
And you folks are so ignorant of the numbers that your opinions make you look like the fools that you are.
The media didn’t just all of a sudden notice this. They weren’t in some sort of psychological denial, and they weren’t taken by surprise.
They were purposely and deliberately engaged in the effort to make the news, rather than cover it.
They actively wanted people to believe that the tea partiers and the town hall goers were nuts, fringe, misinformed, etc., and said so time and again, in the hopes of marginalizing the people.
Unfortunately for them, the technique didn’t work. That is the only reason they are facing it now, insofar as they actually are, which isn’t much.
On the other hand, the Congresspeople, at their town halls, got the message.
A pox on the mainstream media. They lie to get the results they want. Sometimes it doesn’t work. This is one of those times.
I’d like to see him furnish one example of when the government improved on an expensive, dysfunctional system by taking it over. Amtrak? GM? Buhler?
jharp:
Hejsan: “Americans simply have a different mindset”
Yes they do. American’s are stupid.
Yes, some Americans are so stupid they can’t distinguish between the plural and the possessive.
Not only is it more fun to write disparaging reports on “tea baggers” (yuk, yuk, yuk), it’s a lot of work to go through those five 1000+ page bills and actually report on what’s in them. And if the politicians aren’t interested in what’s actually in them, surely the readers aren’t, either.
They seriously look at it this way. Details don’t matter. Intent does. See that halo over Obama’s head? That’s all you need to know.
70. Nope. The troll actually is a bagger at a grocery store:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Greengrocers.27_apostrophes
36. Now and Then:
“30. goy
“Every single outrageous attack on conservatism by the left and the media has been met with doe-eyed, feigned perplexity – as if no single writer wants to be the one to call a cracker a cracker.”
Amen, brother.”
I C Whut U DID THAR!!
You do realize that most people born after about 1967 or so have absolutely no idea of the meaning or origin of that saying? Most people I’ve come across that use the phrase think it refers to cards not a racial slur. Which in effect the slur which originated from “Black as an Ace of Spades” does actually hale back to playing cards. Also the point of that saying for as long as I’ve heard it has been to denote that someone will speak the truth no matter who finds it offensive. However 50+ years ago it may have had another connotation, but I’m not quite that old.
Also I could care less if you call me a “cracka”, “honkey”, “whitebread”, “red neck”, or whatever its only a word and words like that only have power over you if you let them. Racist epithets are really the refuge of the small mind who can’t think of any better insult so they resort to the obvious.
65. anona:
“Vivo and Jharp have again successfuly lowered the I.Q. level of another comment thread. Whenever I see their handles I know to skip their comments as immaterial to the discussion.”
If you skipped them, how do you know what they said?
“I’d like to see him furnish one example of when the government improved on an expensive, dysfunctional system by taking it over. Amtrak? GM?”
Both good examples as both would fail to exist without government intervention.
Some others. The interstate highway system, Medicare, the VA, Social Security, air traffic control, National Parks, police, fire, and so on.
And when was the last private business to beat the government in space exploration?
They are not journalists. They are salesmen.
Please consider getting involved in the tea party express. Let’s continue to make our voices heard. If you can’t make it to Washington, D.C., consider attending one of the rallies along the route.
Chances are, whatever the mainstream media is ignoring is the next really big story.
So, where to start? Government mandates, abolishing the concept of individual liberty? The Obama admin kowtowing to Muslimity while putting down Christianity? The colossally funded Americorps/ACORN/SEIU street army quietly gearing up for great deeds? The staggering attempt of government to usurp contract law and seize control of the private economy?
The possibilities are endless, but the ‘journalists’ are too busy setting the agenda and making a difference to be tasked with reporting mere news.
Poor Citizen said: “By getting a better system in place than we have now, it will truly make our country a better place. For everyone. So whether your a lune,a con or a lib, we should all be supporting reform now.”
But, not your “reform”. Granting government a monopoly on health care is a prescription for rationing and stagnation. You cannot increase demand and reduce expenditures and not end up with rationing. It simply cannot be done. You cannot pay people less to provide greater services and expect the pool of providers to do anything but shrink. Increasing demand while reducing supply is guaranteed to produce rationing. And, thus, you end up in a negative feedback loop, racing to the lowest common denominator of care. It is impossible for events to unfold in any other way.
We know how to optimize conditions for creating and deliverying goods and services. It’s called The Free Market. And, the secret to efficient markets is to promote vigorous competition.
When we fly rockets into Earth orbit, we do not fly directly where we want to go. When we want to go up, we thrust forward. When we want to increase forward speed, we thrust downward. When we want to get a really big boost of speed, we do a slingshot maneuver about a massive body. We do not fight against gravity, we enlist it in our aid. If we tried to gainsay the force of gravity, we would run out of fuel quickly and fall back to the ground, crashing and burning.
In the same way, to reach economic goals, you cannot gainsay the iron laws of supply and demand. You will crash and burn.
There are some very thoughtful comments here today and I would like to add that we, American citizens, are finally to the level where we are paying attention. At first we figured the libs won so we would have to eat some crow for a while but things started to get really weird. First Obama could not select anyone for his administration that didn’t have a ton of bad baggage in tow. Then Pelosi passed the stimulus bill only to be topped by the cap and trade bill. We started to scratch our collective heads and wonder just who and what was running our country. IG’s were fired because they were pokeing into Obama’s friends and then the czars began to show up. Some if not most were plagued with un-American back grounds or out of the main stream beliefs like the Rev Wright. Town hall protesters were called mobsters and nazis by our elected officials and the entire process was labled “Astroturf” by queen pelosi. Obama could never say anything specific about health care reform and then he called a policeman’s action stupid. Race was not an issue.:) People soon understood that NO one in DC knew what in the hell was in the health bill but they were trying to pass it anyway. Cash for clunkers showed what a desperate Congress would do for some praise from the citizenery only to be booed because of inadequate planning for the program. We are all tired of their lame excuses and don’t trust ANY of them to do what is right for our country. We are seeking a looong pause in this bs and if they don’t give it to us we will give it to them!
The feds can’t even get the money to the car dealers for a very simple program (the cost of which they grossly underestimated). Is there a serious person on earth who thinks the feds could actually run an efficient health care program? Government should set the limited rules by which we live, not run programs….Amtrak…Medicaid….Food Stamps….Post Office….all terribly inefficient.
We have trolls in the wire.
MSM = propagantists (support the dear leader)
MSM = feelings about things (not facts)
MSM = moral obligations (baseless rights)
an an angry white male, it is expected that i would be shown by the MSM in the town hall meetings. but what really scares the elites is angry females. the women have done an excellent job of taking it to them, of explaining that they will not be swayed by emotional arguments designed to manipulate.
if you are at the meetings, please let the women speak. they are 10 times more effective at getting the point across on health care.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people cannot draw correct inferences from the language of the proposed bill of reform. Of course it doen’t say, “We’re going to ration healthcare” but in effect, that is what will happen. If you go to bed at night and the ground is bare and you wake up in the morning and it’s covered with snow you can infer that a snowstorm happened while you were asleep–even thought you didn’t see it happen. A little common sense goes a long way!
When will we be out of Afghanistan?
Where is the single-payer public option?
Where are the jobs?
Where’s the Birth Certificate?
What the HECK is going on around here?
#64 Wil
Your post is important and I agree with you.
I am astonished for the moderate tone of many pundits, both on the Net and on the old media (radio, TV).
A moderate tone, when we are facing a savage attack against America’s Freedom and America’s might, is a classic example of the wrong way to be “reasonable”.
The black panther thugs are not charged when they intimidate the voters, communists are appointed to key positions, the defense budget is cut on the F22 and other decisive weapons, the dollar is destroyed by hyperspending, health care is nationalized, dissent is criminalized,the antiterrorism machine that has kept us safe for eight years has been demolished, our foreign policy has become Israel-hating/”not meddling” with iran/ supporting the subversive commies in South and central America/apologizing for keeping the world free from hitlerism and communism.
Cap and trade threatens to further reduce our economic strength.
The whole horizon could and probably will be darker…but this is surely not the time for a “moderate” and reasonable tone.
After forty years of “long march” through the schools, universities ,and media the radical, subversive, and nihilist commie left has conquered a political power that allows it to change America in a third world country.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
Hmmm the MSM is losing on all counts. They are losing revenue and as sales and circulation or viewership is declining. How long can this keep up till they go flat line? Maybe socialism does not sell as well as they thought it would. They need to learn that outright lying and rewrites of history and glowing reports of their own choosing are simply not selling. They try to sell ideas and the one they offer are found lacking so to survive they will need to actually report news as is without the political correctness or opinion and perhaps actually give real sources. I suppose this will have to play out to either accurate reporting or their own demise.
Now and Then, it’s easy, past performance. They have been 180 degrees off plumb in every post they have ever made and they have descended into invective and that stopped being entertaining quite a while ago.
The media has insulated itself from average people in the same way politicians have. They operate on their own philosophy and make stories to support their view point. The old “5 Ws” are really dead now.
“So if you’d like to be accurate about it. (I doubt you will). The government takeover (it’s not a takeover) you speak of is simply another 10% of 18% of our economy.
And you folks are so ignorant of the numbers that your opinions make you look like the fools that you are”
~~jharp:
Another scoop of socialist shit added to the milkshake won’t improve on the milkshake.
There need to be more alternatives to Liberal (capital L) education. Poor thinking habits begin in school.
61. Poor Citizen:
“Big business Neo Cons mad at the town halls. Lunatic fringe tea parties.”
Yeah. Right. Those lower/middle/upper-middle class parents, grandparents and children look uber wealthy and/or fresh out of the nut house.
Just goes to show you how dumd are Media is (Who would of thought the public would mind a Big Gov power grab?) Just what are you, Stuck on Stupid? Try this one on for size if you will. Our founding fathers then warned about about what? In so many words BIG GOVERMENT. People right now don’t want or need BIG Goverment to tell us how to live/eat/poop/or act. YOU the Media and Goverment are there for US (This is what YOU choose to forget) not the other way around. YOU don’t need to CATCH-UP, YOU (The Media/Goverment) NEED TO GET BACK INTO PLACE.
I agree the MSM misrepresents purposely. At some levels it’s the useful idiot thing, at higher levels it’s ideology and access. But at the highest levels, it’s about money and the bottom line. How can that be when they are losing readership? Look at why insurance and pharma companies signed onto Obamacare, when at first glance Obamacare seems designed to destroy those companies.
“it stands to reason that many people probably don’t trust Washington on health care reform because, right now at least, they just don’t trust Washington.”
~~~
Gee, ya think? Why is that? (/sarc)
In local politics we once had a project where the left pushers had over a MILLION more $$$ to spend on campaiging than the opposition. Nevertheless, they woke up the day after the election wondering what happened – despite pushing a liberal (re:costalota$$$$) project in a liberal city. Seems even libs would rather keep their money. But the power pushers (two of whom are now working for obeymugabe) were clueless because they DON’T listen. Unfortunately, those same pushers frequently did end runs around voters to get what they wanted enacted anyway.
13 vivo and 46 jharp:
With the utmost respect, do you really believe that a beneficient govenment is the solution to any problem, much less health care? This problem did NOT exist prior to 1970 And the people didn’t make this problem: neither did the free market.
The government made this problem:
—unrestricted immigration dumped a deluge of uninsured illegals on hospitals obliged by law to serve all uninsured in an emergency: this spiked the cost of health care in every community. One florida Hospital was recently reported to have cared for a penniless illegal for three years at $1.3 million per year! His relatives from Guatamala were perfectly happy to let this continue. They were outraged when he was sent back to Guatamala–and so was the US legal system that decided later that no further transfers of that type would be permitted.
—Medicaid spurred the reckless consumption of healthcare with no provision to provide for the doctors needed: many of those patients are repeat abusers of the medical sytem: in one Texas Country, 10 people, all transients and alcoholics allowed by the legal system to roam free, do not work and get welfare and free medical acre (but not required to stay sober, work or report to a sober house) generated 2700 911 calls for emergency care: in Santa Monica, drug addicts, alcoholics and homeless 9none of whom are required to work or stay clean) account for fully 2/3 of all paramedic responses. Is it any wonder our trauma centers close? That the cost of health care has spiked?
—Medicare and medicaid now cover viagra and all sorts of other non-essential drugs at great cost to everyone else–and which dstorts the dollars spent, shifting them to medications like viagra instead of patient care.
having made the problem, it wants to fix it by expanding the care to more people and spreading the bill again-until it has to be paid.
Nor is the government a solution: we all know it will expand, be ineffective and never go away. Why do I think that? gee, let me think:
—In 1913 we were told the income tax of less than 1% was temporary.
—In 1964 that seat belts were mandated so people may have them available: but in no sense was their use ever to be mandatory.
—on 9-11 neither the CIA not the FBI had any clue as to what was happening and no one was ever fired for letting 9-11 happen.
–during Katrina, no one with the feds or the state has any idea what was happening or what to do–WalMart did though.
Don’t you feel even a little hestitant about signing on to this huge power grab?
3. Francis W. Porretto:
We are blessed to have the Internet today
~~~
and obeymugabe is trying to get a law enacted that would give him power to shut. it. down. alinskyite tactic of shutting the opposition up in whatever way it takes.
#90 Bob Miller:
Sorry, but the joke is inevitable:
Alternatives ? Of course !
Muslim education, anarchist education, marxist education (classic), marxist education (neo-marxist) will soon be available.
Green uniforms, black uniforms, red uniforms.
Then the kids will be able to major in nihilism.
The Mengele University will soon open too (Medical School, specialized in medicine for elderly patients).
In the immortal words of the president: “Grandma maybe doesn’t need that operation, she can take a painkiller instead.”
Lots of painkillers, to make happy all the Old Citizens.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
…in their area of presumed expertise and where their journalistic efforts have been most focused, mainstream news reporting and punditry were the most inept and most inaccurate.
Hey, when you are swooning in the glow of The One™ and are hopelessly ideologically bent…
Crazy, dangerous right wing pawns
This one is my fav…
And when you get beaten up by SEIU guys…
Reagan didnt win the cold war. Communism collapsed in the old Soviet Union, but flourished in Law,Media,Academia, and Politics here. Americans failed to heed the warnings from talk radio about Clinton and his cohorts selling out the US to China, while Islam rose (again). Now we see the consequences-Obama,Harold Koh,Cass Sunstein,Van Jones, Nasty Pelosi,Disgraceful Harry Reid etc. On college campuses we have the likes of Ward Churchill, Peter Singer,and Angela Davis. The ACLU, founded by 2 communists, the Southern Poverty Law Center,trying to use the constitution to destroy the constitution. Whiles its nice to have the Internet, watch and see while the moslem imposter tries something-legal or even by electronic means-to destroy the rest of the mass communications outlets. We need to be prepared for a fight-literally-Communists NEVER cede power willingly.
Blackwell:
13 vivo and 46 jharp:
“With the utmost respect, do you really believe that a beneficient govenment is the solution to any problem, much less health care?”
Yes, without question a public plan/single payer is the solution to our health care crises.
See Medicare.
Also see the other 29 modern countries who cover everyone, and provide the same level of care for 1/2 of what we spend.
Jharp – “Americans are stupid.” Great stuff! I suggest you inform every American you meet and tell them so, right to their stupid faces.
The majority of Americans are not worried about expanding government. The majority of Americans are worried about how they are going to stave off bankruptcy, how they are going to pay for health care and how they are going to be bale to save for their family’s future.
A minority of Americans are worried about expanding government because they have been listening to GOP congress, Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, which spread ridiculous lies about death panels and health care rationing but offer literally no cogent solutions to the health care crisis.
After 8 years of the GOP allowing deregulated private industry to rape the taxpayer through no-bid contracts, backroom deals, hedge funds run wild, a housing bubble, and Bush pet projects that speant billions but achieved no results, the country clearly is feeling the effects of GOP leadership – the Treasury became an ATM for Dick Cheney and his buddies while working Americans and their families end up in debt, jobless and homeless.
If bigger government, and more oversight, is what is necessary to turn of the spigot that allows craven sociopaths like Cheney to bankrupt this country by funneling taxpayer money into the hands of his friends at Halliburton, Blackwater and Texaco, then by all means, let’s have more government.
51. Meryl:
Ah, ha!! That would explain why, every single time Al Gore does any public speaking, he’s yelling and his veins are standing out.
~~~~
I thought it was becasue he was dressed for GW, but it snows when he speaks.
Obama’s slave media wasn’t caught flat footed on the extent of ObamaCare opposition whatsoever.
They just didn’t want to give the story its due, and chose not to report it.
The problem for them is to now report the obvious.
Since they’re not about to admit they’re in cahoots with Obama, they lie and say they didn’t realize what was happening. Disingenuous to the end.
This so called free press is a disgrace to themselves, their profession and their country.
…watch and see while the moslem imposter tries something-legal or even by electronic means-to destroy the rest of the mass communications outlets.
Mark Lloyd, Obama’s “diversity” guy at the FCC…(and why, pray tell, does the FCC need a diversity guy ?)
Really, some of Lloyd’s favored policy changes in how the FCC conducts itself are reminiscent of efforts to absolutely curtail freedom of speech over the airwaves.
Mr. Lloyd, it seems, is a huge admirer of Oogoe Chavez, who is seizing broadcast licenses and so forth as we speak.
Communists are so thin skinned, they can’t stand criticism, so seizing the airwaves goes with the territory.
46. jharp:
They pay twice what everyone else does for the same level of care
~~~
Yeah. same level of care. (/sarc) American’s have better outcomes for cancer, stroke, etc. etc. etc. I’ve been on enough UK health sites when doing research on particular medical subjects, that I’m amazed Brit’s would put up with NHS.
jharp: A government takeover of medicine (a.k.a. “single-payer”) is not reform, but merely a further step in the direction we’ve been heading for 60 years. For some ideas on what *real* health care reform would look like, see the sites of Freedom and Individual Rights in Medicine (http://www.westandfirm.org/) and Americans for Free Choice in Medicine (http://www.afcm.org/).
…let’s have more government.
Which government would that be ?
The one where monetary policy is in the hands of a tax cheat like Timmy Geithner ? The one where Tommy Daschle has the President’s ear ?( tho’ couldn’t make the cabinet), Charlie Rangel, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, crazy brothers Rahm & Zeke, Harry Reid, nutty Nancy P, Van Jones, John Holdren…?
Scaremongers like Kathleen Sebelius & Big Sis Janet Napolitano ?
FYI, it was precisely folks like Barney Frank & democrats pushing for loans that Barney (now says) “never should have been made” that helped tank the credit markets.
Who in the hell, exactly, do you want to be running your life ? Besides you, that is.
P.S. As for the “wonderful” results of socialized medicine in the UK, take a look at this recent article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6092658/Cruel-and-neglectful-care-of-one-million-NHS-patients-exposed.html
There are cogent solutions from the right. The silence is deafening from the media direction because A. they don’t want to talk about them because they would make too much sense to the public and B. Nancy Pelosi didn’t write it so it doesn’t exist in Pelosi land.
As for GOP in charge the last 8 years look at congress. It has been democrat for a good chunk of that. The democrat Congress wrote and or protected most of those problems. That is the one think I lay at President Bush’s feet is his failure to stop the Democrat controlled congress from causing the damage it did. As far as politicians funneling money to friends look at Barney Frank and company. They have no peer in that regard
97. Sherab Zangpo:
In the immortal words of the president: “Grandma maybe doesn’t need that operation, she can take a painkiller instead.”
Lots of painkillers, to make happy all the Old Citizens.
~~~
Oh, dear. How unfortunate. Grandma took too many of those painkillers and died from an OD. Too bad the Dr. gave her too many in her Rx, but at least she’s not in pain anymore.
the left doesn’t understand when they start putting a value on a human life, eventually NO life has value. (not even theirs.)
At this point, it doesn’t matter that the MSM has been too busy fawning over Obama’s speeches to notice his shell game in progress. What does matter is that a growing majority of Americans HAVE been paying attention and now the jig is up. Obama has been outed as the inept liberal swindler that he is. The only shocking part is how quickly Obama stumbled and fell.
I do enjoy the fact that he is single-handedly forcing the liberals to scurry back under the rock they crawled out from. Buh-bye liberal lunatics! We’ll see you when the polar ice caps melt again (aka not in my lifetime).
“Dana H.:
“P.S. As for the “wonderful” results of socialized medicine in the UK, take a look at this recent article:”
And why does socialized medicine in the U.K have anything to do with the debate?
Even the most ignorant know full well that no one is proposing socialized medicine here in the U.S.
What stuns the media is the fact that very few people believe the crap they put out. They are no longer the guardians of information which means that they are rapidly losing power and influence. That does not sit well with them. After all, they’ve been brought up to believe that they were a cut above us ordinary folk. The modern American university and journalism schools have been the bredding grounds of smug elitism. But few of us are buying there product anymore.
Note to jharp: QUIT TRYING TO SELL OBAMA’S HEALT CARE FIASCO. That ship has sailed.
The plan has now been read in it’s entirety and has been labeled A TRAVESTY by a majority of Americans. We “stupid” Americans as you labeled us (#46) aren’t buying it from you or Obama. Pack up your carpetbag and head on down the liberal lunatic highway. Your liberal party has had their 5 minutes in the sun and the stench is intolerable.
If you want free healthcare jharp, MOVE!! The rest of us Americans are a pretty self-sufficient bunch. I’ll pay TWICE AS MUCH for my healthcare if it means I don’t have to wait for months for tests. I’ll pay FIVE TIMES AS MUCH for my healthcare if it means I don’t have to wait years for surgery.
Freedom ain’t Free jharp. Now go have some government cheese and rethink your points a bit.
poor poor jharp.
Still, apparently, unaware that “public option” and “single payor” are code for government run, aka, socialized medicine.
Still, apparently, unaware that “you’ll be able to keep your private insurance” is, yet another, Obamism to suck in the proles.
According to The Atlantic, President Obama will offer his own Health Care Plan to Congress next week:
http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/09/something_new_on_health_care_ultimatums_from_the_president.php
However, I expect Obama’s plan to still have the Public Option, hidden, & many of the same ideas where the power play in still in the picture. Above all else, President Obama wants to concentrate & amass more power within the Executive Branch. Beware of Obama.
I still think this will not help President Obama one iota as his poll numbers will continue to bleed like an artery. I expect the MSM to tout Obama’s bill as a masterpiece of legislation while their lips are firmly planted on his butt.
Whoa, over a hundred comments and Vivo, Jharp, and now and then have yet to call us racists! Woo hoo!
Either they are off of, or have elevated, their game, but thanks in any case. Now we are just stupid, but that, coming from a guy who counts medicare and it’s 60 billion a year in fraud a success worth duplicating, well you know, he probably doesn’t really know what stupid means either.
AThinkingPerson:
“If you want free healthcare jharp, MOVE!”
First, nothing is free. I know the wingnut brain has a hard time grasping yet it is true.
And if you don’t like Obama Care YOU CAN MOVE.
Remember. We won. You lost. And elections have consequences.
“117. Sebastian Shaw:
According to The Atlantic, President Obama will offer his own Health Care Plan to Congress next week:”
A real leader would have presented his plan to start with. But no one ever accused obama of being a real leader.
33. Tyrone Slothrop:
“You betray a stunning lack of knowledge of the way the world works. The purpose of the “public option” is to create a bottomless pit of money which no private insurer can compete with. Once Obamacare has put all private insurers out of business, there will be no more choices. Costs will be what bureaucrats say they will be. When they can’t control costs, they will control services– that is, by rationing. This doesn’t have to be explicit in the bill to be real.”
Why would someone want to create a bottomless pit of money? If that’s the case, all our financial problems would be solved !!!!!
Why wouldn’t insurers not be able to compete? Have you seen a fire and home insurance drop out of the market because of competition? They fail when a catastrophe comes around and don’t have enough reserves or play accounting games. They don’t fail, they just cheat their customers.
Failing to control cost is a management issue. You can have good managers and bad managers. That’s what college education aims to fix.
Again, legislation is not rock solid. Improvements to the system are always possible, as long as the legislators do theui homework and earn their pay.
Two very clear actions called me to arms to work for the ouster of Dems in 2010.
#1 When the leaders in Congress called me un-American for voicing my disgust at the government takover.
#2 Congress and their minions would be exempt from participating in a Plan that is so important to voters us but not for the insane elected Congress members.
I love this country. I want less government not more. I want fiscal responsibility. I want leaders who are NOT corrupt and take advantage of the system because they weild the power. Congress caused this mess and I am proudley one of the 57% who would love to boot out all memebers of Congress and start over. Now stick that in your ear MSM and do the journalist job of reporting facts not bias opinions!
91. Delia: “Yeah. Right. Those lower/middle/upper-middle class parents, grandparents and children look uber wealthy and/or fresh out of the nut house.”
Mostly, they resemble the crazy old lady handing out the “YOU ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!!” pamphlets outside the grocery store every weekend.
“I got a book here called the U.S.S. Constitution!”
“Keep your government hands of my Medicare!”
“I’ll be danged if I am going to give up my Social Security because of socialism!”
Durrr.
Fantom (#120), President Obama is no leader; however, he is trying to rescue his administration with the Health Care Bill. He’s desperate. His bill will have triggers to make the Public Option & other power grabs; his bill will still be helpful to unions. It will be no different than the House & Senate bills in substance. I expect President Obama’s bill to get the same backlash from the people he has been receiving for the last few months. Despite Democrat majorities in Congress, President Obama is teetering on disaster. Why? He’s no leader & he’s a Marxist revealed.
@119. jharp: – Remember. We won. You lost.
What do you think you won? Only 30% of America’s eligible voting population supported BHO – and that was based on the vaguest of platforms, most of which he’s since reneged on. If you think that election gave you a mandate to do whatever you “feel” is right, you’re sadly mistaken.
… elections have consequences.
Heh. So does inexperience and ineptitude. So does corporatist/fascist social policy. So does ego-maniacal, messianic narcissism.
47. MarkButter in SoCal:
vivo:
“1) You will have choice in what health benefits you receive. – Of course, if you want more you’ll pay more.”
I understand that universal coverage provides for a minimum of services. You get what you pay for. Not ideal, but it’s a beginning.
“2: You can’t take a healthcare system that right now has finite resources and add to it ~40M people and say nothing is going to change. It’s impossible NOT to make accomodations to one “group” and not take it from somewhere else.”
Do you want health care for 40 million more or not?
“3: There is NO mechanism to check for being legally here.”
Have you heard of passports, birth certificates, green cards?
“4: There are no death panels. But any organization sending out pamphlets or has reading material they direct you to regarding end of life counseling is really trying to make sure you’re not a “drag” on the system.”
Sorry, your paranoia shows.
goy:
@119. jharp: – Remember. We won. You lost.
“What do you think you won?”
The White House. A 60-40 Senate seat advantage. And a 75 seat House advantage.
And I don’t think it, I know it.
#111.Ked5., Yeah, all those pain killers taken by grandma which is good for Big Pharma. Who would have ever thought that the anti-capitalist Dems would be in bed with Big Pharma?
“Catching up” by Mainstream Media “thinkers” means dealing with reality as it has already passed overhead and can no longer be ignored, then resetting the spin cycle.
We’ve had a stubborn forest fire here since mid July. It just blew up and burned a number of houses. The Forest Service is contemplating the smoking ashes for an explanation of why that might have happened when they were sure it would not. Same thing.
You can hear in the quotes you gave from our learned pundit class that they continue to understand nothing that doesn’t fit their model. Still, they have accumulated enough “wrong” debt by overspending on Obama that it’s time to “catch up” with a modified model and a new spin cycle to mislead themselves again for the next few months. They no longer mislead most of us.
I’m glad you read these idiots in full and brief me.
ked 5 @103
51. Meryl:
“Ah, ha!! That would explain why, every single time Al Gore does any public speaking, he’s yelling and his veins are standing out.”
~~~~
“I thought it was becasue he was dressed for GW, but it snows when he speaks.”
You’re probably right!! I always appreciate when that happens….
106 ked5…you’re probably right! I love when that happens.
The collectivists thought that acceptance of their ideological ideas, and not their tiresome 365/24/7 negative campaign against the other side, got them elected. “Hope & Change” was a brilliant idea, except that what the left sees as their trademarked “Hope & Change” looks like a heaping pile of dung nobody else wants. And as they find out that Americans do not have much stomach for their collectivist combo of handing over America to their elite in government and turning it into a two-bit banana republic, it is causing them to come apart at the seams. Obamacare was just the last straw in a string of insulting and criminal acts by these leftist tools.
I mean how stupid do these people think we are? Bear in mind that they took over congress in 2006. Then they jacked up deficit spending two years in a row to a scary $400 billion a year. They demonized Bush and republicans for their fiscal irresponsibility, correctly so for letting the democrats in congress do so I should add, and made major strides with people worried about the fiscal irresponsibility in DC. But then, after winning the 2008 elections, these collectivist twits are looking at setting new annual deficit records that outright quadruple, odds are more likely that they will quintuple, the worst numbers of when Bush was president! And they want us not to worry or object? WTF? Republicans got labeled as being part of a culture of corruption, but democrats are defining a new low with their corruption and destructive spending that baffles the mind.
Beware the compromise though. They know that they can not screw us over with their plan to completely take over all the healthcare dollars – the plan was never to fix or cut costs in healthcare – in one fell swoop, so the next step will be to pass crap that will let them do it piecemeal. The statists in DC want the power that comes with not just controlling the trillions of healthcare dollars, but the power that also comes from ability to make life and death decisions. Then the tyrants can really get to work.
119. jharp: “Remember. We won. You lost. And elections have consequences.”
So do actions. And right now you already lost public’d trust and are loosing at least 5 next elections.
@127. jharp: – The White House. A 60-40 Senate seat advantage. And a 75 seat House advantage.
Wow – a sudden burst of honesty. I guess that’s “Change”.
Notably “you” did not “win” a mandate to implement whatever socialist policies you like – especially when (since you bring up majorities) almost 60% of Americans would replace the entire Congress if given the chance, 53% of the country disapproves of BHO’s inept excuse for leadership, so far, an overwhelming 70% prefer to see reduced taxes and less federal interference in our lives and 53% of Americans are opposed to socialized medicine in the form of the Democrats’ proposal, which is strongly opposed by twice as large a percentage as those who strongly support it.
The next big story the MSM is ignoring is Obama’s attempt to control the Internet. One of the Federal Reserve Big 12 (rich banking families that is, and Obama’s owners), Jay Rockefeller has sponsored a bill providing for Obama to take over the Internet in an “Emergency”.
I predict this story will languish for at least 6 more weeks.
norar:
119. jharp: “Remember. We won. You lost. And elections have consequences.”
So do actions. And right now you already lost public’d trust and are loosing at least 5 next elections.
_________________________________________________
Ha! Surely you jest.
Have you seen the GOP’s favourability polls?
Too funny! You’re at about 20%!
Senator Judd Gregg is ready to carve up the bill if the Democrats choose reconciliation to stall it in the Senate:
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/56897-gop-objections-await-healthcare-plan
Gregg will see that the bill will have hundreds of objections, each requiring 60 votes to overcome each one. Given the scope of the bill, the hundreds of objections is possible. Furthermore, with Ted Kennedy’s death, the Senate only has 59 votes. This will take months to get through if Gregg goes through with the objections & well into 2010…
Gregg has support with other Republicans & the Democrats are weary after August.
Brock wrote: Mostly, they resemble the crazy old lady handing out the “YOU ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!!” pamphlets outside the grocery store every weekend.
Well, Brock, don’t be too shocked if a good many of those ‘crazy’ old ladies voted for DohBama and are registered Dems.
“Failing to control cost is a management issue. You can have good managers and bad managers. ”
Unfortunatly, most of good managers tend to steer clear of government employment. Yes, it’s true-if you want to see real improvement to the health care system you need legislators that do their homework rather than having lobbyists do the work for them. Oh, let’s not forget, legislators not only are paid by the citizens they “earn their pay” from special interests – big pharma, the insurance industry, AARP, ABA, etc…(the one’s with so-called bottomless pitt of money) You better believe that legislation is rarely “rock solid” or designed to help the average citizen. This bill is designed to do one thing: save big business the cost of insuring their employees. Of course big business wants a single payer, government run system. Why pay for something when you can force your competitors share your costs?
jharp is right–the Democrats can pass any law they want. So, what’s stopping them?
It’s a shame that we don’t have a Republican Party capable of fully exploiting the situation, but that’s no reason not to press forward and hand the Left what would have to be one of the most devastating defeats in memory. Not only would they fail to exploit their veto-proof majority, but a whole series of code words for socialism–public option, coop, cap and trade, etc.–are being exposed and discredited. This will send them back to the drawing board for quite a while.
Everyone here seems to know not to listen to a single word the Left says. Here’s the method for guessing at what the Left will do:
1) Observe what they call a “right” or a “crisis”
2) Imagine the farthest reaches of government power that could be called upon to guarantee that “right” or resolve that “crisis”
3) Imagine the full institutionalization of that power.
4) Imagine everyone who could be deemed an enemy or criminal once such institutionalized power is in existence.
5) Finally, imagine all the destruction those new powers will cause, and further imagine new powers brought into being to solve all those problems, which will be blamed upon those who opposed the new system from the beginning.
Through this method, one will gain some glimpse of what would be set in motion by giving the Left an inch–and giving it an inch means conceding the existence of the “right” or the “crisis” in question.
ATTENTION TO WELL-MEANING (but gullible) posters ON PJM:
“jharp” and “vivo” (AMONG TOO MANY OTHERS) are Obama-trolls.
Why the “F” do *Y*O*U* WASTE THE TIME AND VALUABLE SPACE HERE ON Pajamas Media
responding to CLEARLY TRASH DIVERSION TROLLS?!
They DO NOT wish to “discuss” or “debate”…you night as well be talking to Kos or Axelrod.
STOP IT!!!
IGNORE these b*stards in the future, please.
ONCE AND FOR ALL.
Folks, leave Vivo & Jharp alone. As I said yesterday – they are both airheads. Just ignore their posts.
Vivo. You can keep your health insurance if you want to. Trouble is most Americans get their health insurance through their employer, so, you can keep it if your employer wants to keep it. After Obama makes it lucrative for the employers to drop their plan, you will go with it into the public option. Wake up you idiots.
“141. Ed Wallis:
ATTENTION TO WELL-MEANING (but gullible) posters ON PJM:
“jharp” and “vivo” (AMONG TOO MANY OTHERS) are Obama-trolls.
Why the “F” do *Y*O*U* WASTE THE TIME AND VALUABLE SPACE HERE ON Pajamas Media
responding to CLEARLY TRASH DIVERSION TROLLS?!
They DO NOT wish to “discuss” or “debate”…you night as well be talking to Kos or Axelrod.
STOP IT!!!
IGNORE these b*stards in the future, please.
ONCE AND FOR ALL.
Sep 1, 2009 – 2:22 pm”
I agree with you, but,
1) You will never be able to stop everyone from taking the bait and responding out of outrage, disgust, the thrill of battle, etc. And I include myself here.
2) Examining what the trolls have to say can be valuable, precisely because they are cut and paste Democratic talking points–they provide a kind of thermometer, letting us know what the Left is thinking on a daily basis. (But examining them for diagnostic purposes is different from trying to engage them in dialogue)
Re Ed Wallis: You’re right of course about the trolls but I do so enjoy tag teaming them. Isn’t it quite of fulfilling to watch them shriveling like hothouse violets in the noonday sun when you shine the light of truth on them? Besides, how will they learn unless we force feed the facts into their thick skulls? Will Obama tell them? No.He’s already used them and now has discarded their fight. It’s sort of a mission of mine I guess. Bringing truth to the liberals (for once).
I mean seriously, what is more rewarding that having jharp brought to his knees by facts? I can almost hear him galloping back to the moonbat cave for some more kool-aid. It’s sort of like a sport at this point. I’m embarrassed to admit I’m enjoying myself way too much.
But again, Ed, you’re right. It’s just not fair fighting liberals when we have the facts on our side and they seem to be a little S*L*O*W if you know what I mean.
“Have you seen the GOP’s favourability polls?”
Gosh, why do the GOP’s polling numbers matter when “you won”? LOL!
Why do liberals not want to discuss Obama’s numbers? Hmmmm…………………..
This comment for high school seniors ONLY: Congress is borrowing trillions directly from your future and this means your taxes will be much higher than what your parents are paying right now. The reality is ugly. The amount of deductions from your paychecks could be almost twice as much as what it is today.
The reason why this is happening is that Congress has decided Americans needs all kinds of things we can’t afford, so they are borrowing it from your future and you will be making the payments. Don’t blame your parents. The politicians promised they would be fiscally responsible, but once elected, they ignored their promise and many who didn’t like what was happening were called “Un-American.”
Ed Wallis at 141,
Bless you!
Well meaning posters; please listen to Ed and the “iron in his words of truth.” The trolls he identifies are Marxist to varying degrees. They believe in “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Marxism is antithetical to individual freedom and liberty, and capitalism,the founding principals and economic system upon which our republic’s Constitution is based.
Vivo, Now and Then, and the other consistent marxist contributors have beliefs that can’t be reconciled with our Constitutional beliefs. They deny their Marxism vehemently, and then prove it again and again in their postings. They are supporters of HB3200 which would violate multiple Amendments to the Constitution in addition to Article 1 clauses.
It ain’t worth the time debating people who believe in the discredited philosophy they articulate. When it comes to the dialectic, the ends justify the means with that crowd.
Don’t wrestle in the mud with troll/pigs, you get dirty and the troll/pigs like it.
And THIS message is for starting kindergardners ONLY:
“Congress is borrowing trillions directly from your future and this means your taxes will be much higher than what your parents are paying right now. The reality is ugly. The amount of deductions from your paychecks could be almost twice as much as what it is today.
The reason why this is happening is that Congress has decided Americans needs all kinds of things we can’t afford, so they are borrowing it from your future and you will be making the payments. Don’t blame your parents. The politicians promised they would be fiscally responsible, but once elected, they ignored their promise and many who didn’t like what was happening were called “Un-American.””
Nicely put, Vince johnson.
If you can somehow post to the unborn, it would be wise to do so, they’re getting screwed, too.
144. adam:
2) Examining what the trolls have to say can be valuable, precisely because they are cut and paste Democratic talking points–they provide a kind of thermometer, letting us know what the Left is thinking on a daily basis. (But examining them for diagnostic purposes is different from trying to engage them in dialogue)
Actually, that probably isn’t true in the case of the worst trolls here. These are the duller tools in the progressive shed and their talking points are usually a good bit behind the curve. Note harpo. He is still pushing the same tired talking points he was pushing months ago, long before the house bill crashed and burned. As detrimental to public discourse as it is and despite the anger over it, he can’t even get the idea through his head that the teabagger meme backfired too.
Engaging them with facts and logic is pointless. These people are curb scrappings off someone’s sneakers. They should be ignored, or if a comment is particularly offensive, spoken of in the third person at best.
Do we have any saavy I.T. people posting who would know what it would take to set up an ignore feature here,site managers willing?.How nice would it be if we could personally choose who to interact with,and filter out those we find scurilous?
“Whenever law ends, tyranny begins.” – John Locke
The supreme law of the land, our Constitution, has been violated numerous times in recent years. It is obvious that many of our politicians and judges do not believe in their oath of office, nor do they govern in the best interest of the citizens as defined by the American ideals of individual freedom and capitalism.
Currently, another grievous violation of the Constitution is occurring and being ignored by our politicians, judges, and the irresponsible media. This atrocious deed is not verifying the natural born citizenship of Barack Obama as defined in the Constitution. Consider these facts:
• Barack Obama has not provided an original birth certificate
• The Hawaii Department of Health will not confirm his birth
• Both parents must United States citizens in order to be considered a Natural Born Citizen. Obama’s Father was not a United States citizen.
• Legal affidavits state he was born in Kenya
• A recording by Obama’s paternal Grandmother states that she witnessed Obama’s birth in Kenya
• In 1965, Obama’s Mother relinquished her and Obama’s citizenship to marry a Indonesian citizen
Abuse of power, repeated violations of the Constitution, and malfeasance in office are the daily activities of the Obama administration. There is no limit to the harm an anti-American socialist as President can inflict upon the citizens. The only solution I see to remove the usurper from office is an immediate CITIZEN’S RECALL by millions of patriots.
146. AThinkingPerson: – “Have you seen the GOP’s favourability polls?” … Gosh, why do the GOP’s polling numbers matter when “you won”? LOL!
I don’t know ATP. Maybe s/he meant this:
Or this:The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 43% would vote for their district’s Republican congressional candidate while 36% would opt for his or her Democratic opponent.
Looks like the GOP’s favorability is increasing (God only knows why) and BHO’s approval is tanking – and has been since the day he was inaugurated. The trends are pretty clear.
AThinkingPerson:
“Have you seen the GOP’s favourability polls?”
“Gosh, why do the GOP’s polling numbers matter when “you won”? LOL!”
They don’t.
I was responding to norar who was claiming the democrats were going to lose the next 5 elections. A stupid claim even for here. I simply pointed out the GOP is far less popular.
“norar said. So do actions. And right now you already lost public’d trust and are loosing at least 5 next elections.”
To the people extolling the virtues of Medicare repeatedly on this thread, I have a newsflash for ya: IT’S GOING BANKRUPT! Got that? Between Medicare and Social Security, you’re looking at approximately 100 TRILLION in unfunded liability. Not only are we out of money, but we’re now printing it and running deficits we will never get out from underneath. Some of you people need a reality check!
Even if the money is there, which it isn’t, why on earth would anyone want to give up their freedom willingly and without hesitation to a corrupt, power-grabbing government behemoth. I just can’t wrap my brain around that kind of logic. Once they have this kind of control, they will naturally expand it. We will no longer be free. We’re very close to losing our freedom right now. Since when do Americans put all their faith and trust in government? It’s hard to believe that there are still so many people ready to let the government take care of everything. Please step away from the Kool-Aid!
Do any of you progressives care about all the little nuances in these 1,000 plus page bills? Do you ever stop to ask why they are ramming through 1,000 plus page bills in the first place? Think about it. First clue- it’s not in our best interest.
jtwerp;
Ha! Surely you jest.
Have you seen the GOP’s favourability polls?
Too funny! You’re at about 20%!
Sep 1, 2009 – 1:44 pm
———————————
Guess you missed this one, eh, jtwerp?
Keep spewing it though, as the stench of desperation smells good on you!
Btw, Obama is now at 45%… the “fat lady” is singing “loud and clear”!
Virginia and New Jersey have had their respective fill of your liberal “ship of fools” and are going to “scuttle the hatches”, sinking their failed socialist experiment to the bottom of the sea. The American populice just simply will not allow your Saul Alinsky ideology to take hold in this country! Enjoy the tidal wave of conservatism that will surely wash ashore in 2010 America. The fact is, is that after a little more than half a year, America once again rejects you and your disgusting liberal philosophy. Sorry, but… you lose!!!
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/generic_congressional_ballot
Jennifer:
“Chances are, whatever the mainstream media is ignoring is the next really big story.”
What is curious is the inability of the media to describe in any coherent detail the contents of the proposed health care legislation. Some ‘factcheckers’ have attempted to debunk specific ‘lies’, but there have been few attempts to provide a decent description what will change once the legislation is enacted. This may be due to the dense legalese in the bill, which is incomprehensible except to the authors of the bill (but maybe even they could not explain it if they had a gun to their head).
Conventional media have been letting us down for a while now, and part of the political change that must occur involves improvements in the media. The media should have acknowledged and reported the weakness and outright failures of the ‘existing’ health care legislation; by failing to criticize we have simply wasted everyone’s time. The media chose to ‘report’ the Democrat’s and Obama’s characterizations of legislation, without challenges and a healthy degree of skepticism. At some point wasted time and effort becomes relevant as we continue to pay interest on the trillions of national debt…
“150. Commuter:
144. adam:
2) Examining what the trolls have to say can be valuable, precisely because they are cut and paste Democratic talking points–they provide a kind of thermometer, letting us know what the Left is thinking on a daily basis. (But examining them for diagnostic purposes is different from trying to engage them in dialogue)
Actually, that probably isn’t true in the case of the worst trolls here. These are the duller tools in the progressive shed and their talking points are usually a good bit behind the curve. Note harpo. He is still pushing the same tired talking points he was pushing months ago, long before the house bill crashed and burned. As detrimental to public discourse as it is and despite the anger over it, he can’t even get the idea through his head that the teabagger meme backfired too.
Engaging them with facts and logic is pointless. These people are curb scrappings off someone’s sneakers. They should be ignored, or if a comment is particularly offensive, spoken of in the third person at best.
Sep 1, 2009 – 3:24 pm”
Maybe–admittedly, I don’t go trolling myself on the DailyKos, Huffington Post, etc., to keep abreast of the latest standards of leftist propaganda. Still, I think I learned a little something when I noticed that one of our trolls (I don’t remember which) veered sharply into denouncing the American people as “stupid.” That’s loser talk–a few weeks ago they would have been confident that Americans, brilliant enough to have elected Barack Obama, would see through conservative “lies”–and gives me a bit of valuable information, i.e., that they are getting desperate and preparing themselves to return to their normal condition of permanent and embittered minority.
All good and clever Marxists concentrate on the Process. Think Peace Process in Israel. They have been processing over there for what, decades? Where is the peace? Oh-that’s right. It’s just a process.
128. steveg:
Who would have ever thought that the anti-capitalist Dems would be in bed with Big Pharma?
~~~~~
Liberals are whores who will get in bed with anyone for $$$. They want to feed their delusions of granduer of being a medieval lord surrounded by nothing but serfs. they want the power, the glory, the greed . . .
13. vivo:
1) How are you going to PAY FOR IT? I keep hearing the Left go on and on about how irresponsible Bush was regarding spending, all the while Obama supported Bush’s bailout, and wants to keep on spending! HOW ARE YOU (WE) GOING TO PAY FOR THIS? If you believe that this will make health care cheaper, what former government program can you cite ever ran according to budget and made anything cheaper or more affordable as it claimed it would?!
2) Why would small business maintain private health care insurance for it’s employees if the government will provide a cheaper option? Choice goes right out the door, AND YOU REFUSE TO RECOGNIZE OR ADMIT THAT.
3) WHY NO TORT REFORM? With all the banter from the Left about how much health care consumes from our GDP, why not one study as to how much money is spent on doctors ordering tests only to cover their rear-ends in case of a law-suit that has no monetary limitations? TORT REFORM SHOULD COME FIRST!
145. AThinkingPerson:
Re Ed Wallis: You’re right of course about the trolls but I do so enjoy tag teaming them. Isn’t it quite of fulfilling to watch them shriveling like hothouse violets in the noonday sun when you shine the light of truth on them?
It’s sort of a mission of mine I guess. Bringing truth to the liberals (for once).
It’s sort of like a sport at this point.
~~~~
I would imagine the satisfaction is far more long lasting than the adrenaline rush of a bungee jump.
151. McBride:
Do we have any saavy I.T. people posting who would know what it would take to set up an ignore feature here,site managers willing?.How nice would it be if we could personally choose who to interact with,and filter out those we find scurilous?
~~~~
I’m sure my son would love that feature. He reads PJM and has frequently mentioned his irritation with the freedom of the trolls. He is a moderator on a MMORPG site’s forum and loves being able to shut down their trolls, as they add nothing, and detract constantly.
135
I think the bill is S.773 . It is being pushed along and we’re not paying attention… As usual there is a smoke screen around things like this with Obama…like the Czars etc…
“til they take their cookies and go home”, Hannity has the video, audio on this comment..
151 McGroom and 163 kfed5 . . . Here Here! I agree! There are a few people I’d like to shut down here.
Ked,if your son doesn’t already partake,send him to HotAir.The vacuous trolls here wouldn’t last three days over there,with the possible exception of David S.
Hot Air . . . Malken can’t handle the truth. That’s why she has only people who agree with her post on that site. If you’re lonely and ignorant and gullible – desperate for validation and relegated to only digital communities, Hot Air is the place for you.
I’m getting really angry with the GOP and Conservative groups. Where the He1l is the Constitutional pushback on Obamacare?
While it’s good to attack the specifics of the proposals to expose the totalitarianism of the Left, the entire debate should be ended by challenging the Democrats to cite where in the Constitution they derive the authority for nationalizing health care.
If we can’t or won’t draw a Constitutional line in the sand here and now when will we if ever? The Constitution is our absolute best defense against the Progressive agenda. If we negotiate an unconstitutional bill we grant legitimacy to the concept and can expect the Left to keep pushing until they achieve 100% of their goal.
166. McBride:
I Love troll takedowns on HA
DerKrieger
167. Now and Then:
I think housing ought to be a “right”. Can I come over to your house and pick up a check for a new house for myself? I mean, why filter it through some bureaucrat and lose 50% on administrative costs. Just give the money directly to me and let’s cut out the middleman. Deal?
The media is not catching up, they are changing directions. They are painting over the recession, calling it over. The media is diverting the attention away from obamacare and focusing on the great work the administration did avoiding catastrophe. Meanwhile, unemployment will continue to rise, they will call cash for clunkers a success, while everyone knows they are just barrowing car sales from the future. The question is, will there be enough stimulus money left to buy votes next November?
jharp and Now and Then…2 lonely voices repeating the same insults. One previous poster noted that posters like these get paid by a Soros fund. I had never thought of that before, but it sounds plausible. Certainly it’s an accusation that they would have no hesitation in throwing out there against the Right and have done so with regard to the Tea Party demonstrations. I simply don’t know; but what I have noticed is that whatever the Left is usually accusing the Right of, is precisely what they are actually engaged in. They spent years telling us that Fascism was coming to America and they were right…they were just off by one president…about a 2% error…not bad.
143. William:
“After Obama makes it lucrative for the employers to drop their plan, you will go with it into the public option.”
Assuming you are right, if it’s lucrative for the employers, wouldn’t that be beneficial for lowering product costs and hiring more employees?
144. adam:
“2) Examining what the trolls have to say can be valuable, precisely because they are cut and paste Democratic talking points–they provide a kind of thermometer, letting us know what the Left is thinking on a daily basis. (But examining them for diagnostic purposes is different from trying to engage them in dialogue)”
You’ve got it wrong here, dear boy. I’m an Independent, support common sense and intelligent ideas. I come here for the same purpose you explained: how do these guys think? An extra kick is the humor in the lunacy found with some right-wing trolls.
Eric at 168,
I agree with your sentiment and am glad you are zeroing in on the Constitutionality of HB3200. I believe it’s effect on individuals would violate the 4th and 14th Amendments. It may also violate the commerce clause and perhaps the 10th Amendment.
Strategically, it may be wise for the GOP to keep powder dry right now. The President is bleeding support and the Congress is not in session. The Republicans may be wise to let the unpopularity simmer via public outcry while reserving argument for a time when maximum leverage can be gained from it. I think the GOP would be wise to speak with one voice about a positive option to Obamacare and stay on message. Having their own counter townhalls is also smart.
The public is awake and angry; save energy for the end game and driving the lance home at the right moment.
The Democrats have done this exclusively on their own, let them suffer for the incompetence of their proposal and the fact that they can’t seem to pass it even with complete control of the executive and legislative branches of government. It shows every independent just how married they are to defective European socialist ideology and how utterly feckless they are at governing.
They have caught themselves in their own snare; no need to rescue them from themselves.
You mean hear, hear?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear
/Silly troll, wits aren’t for kids…
147. Vince Johnson:
“This comment for high school seniors ONLY: Congress is borrowing trillions directly from your future and this means your taxes will be much higher than what your parents are paying right now.”
Ummh, let’s see.
Congress is borrowing trillions of $’s. Why? Because they want to give people what they cannot get through their employers salaries and benefits.
Oh, boy! The government is subsidizing employers!
Or actually, the employees are subsidizing the employers.
The few billionaires that own the world are making even MORE money than now!
Isn’t that clever or what?
158. adam:
‘…I noticed that one of our trolls (I don’t remember which) veered sharply into denouncing the American people as “stupid.” That’s loser talk…’
Point taken. But it took a loser personality to rationalize spending hours upon hours visiting and revisiting threads to spew the same nonsense to people who considered the troll to be a complete ass even before it became apparent that HR3200 was political cyanide.
I also understand your earlier point about responding out of ‘outrage, disgust, the thrill of battle, etc.’ Every time I read a comment by these vulgar creeps calling the Tea Party participants or Town Hall attendees ‘teabaggers’ -our wives, mothers, grandmothers, daughters (all four titles belong to women in my family who have attended a Town Hall)- it isn’t outrage I feel. It’s out and out rage.
Nonetheless, the way to handle any urge to acknowledge this progressive trash is to marginalize them by discussing their comments in the third person. You might discuss a bug under glass, but you don’t address it.
jharp only seems to appear when the story is about Obamacare. One might be led to think that jharp is being paid to track and comment on only this topic. A general purpose Leftist like Now and Then shows up across a multitude of posts…not jharp. Interesting.
150. Commuter:
“Engaging them with facts and logic is pointless.”
Why do I think the same way???
We agree to disagree.
Our thick skulls? Genetics? Education? Social environment? Peer pressure? Deficient teachers? Great teachers? Paranoia? Self-confidence? DNA? Self interest? Machismo?
It’s endless.
And the Obama carries on with Bush’s wars. Move-on co-opted the anti-war movement and shifted the focus to healthcare and global warming frauds. It was a setup, and everyone is chomping at the bit.
But it’s failing, and both liberals and conservatives are seeing the man behind the curtain.
Tommygunn ,the first post,right on the money.America doesnt do Communism,marxism or any other “ism”.Real americans know this.Im canadian and I KNOW THIS.So i watch the Left with disgust as they continue to demonize their opponents INSTEAD of logical choice of words.
Bill Maher lost bigtime when he twisted Palin’s words to make her sound like an idiot.Thats ok though because Alfonzo turned the tables on him!Its actually fun the watch Lefties get a taste of their own medicine…and they do not like it at all.Well tough luck,freedom of speech and all.HEHE!
155. Flyingright:
“why on earth would anyone want to give up their freedom willingly and without hesitation to a corrupt, power-grabbing government behemoth.”
Governments are elected and they are made up of citizens. You get what you deserve.
Idiot voters = idiot government
Smart voters = idiot government
161. neverquit:
“13. vivo:
1) How are you going to PAY FOR IT? . . . HOW ARE YOU (WE) GOING TO PAY FOR THIS?”
Ask Ben S. Bernanke. He’s working on it.
“2) Why would small business maintain private health care insurance for it’s employees if the government will provide a cheaper option? Choice goes right out the door, AND YOU REFUSE TO RECOGNIZE OR ADMIT THAT.”
The way you put it, I would admit that employers would go for a cheaper option assuming a quality option. Would you shop Whole Foods or Walmart?
“3) WHY NO TORT REFORM? With all the banter from the Left about how much health care consumes from our GDP, why not one study as to how much money is spent on doctors ordering tests only to cover their rear-ends in case of a law-suit that has no monetary limitations? TORT REFORM SHOULD COME FIRST!”
I agree on this one. As part of the whole package.
Re #178 Kevin S: You pose an interesting point and one that I hadn’t considered. As crazy as it sounds it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Obama hired some of his Acorn “volunteers” to Google Obama health care and then sell it for all it’s worth to any unsuspecting internet surfer they happen upon.
Hmmmm….
The White House has already been caught sending out blanket emails about the health care travesty using an outside source to spam email inboxes. I could see them using tax payer dollars to fund a few out of work loud mouth trolls.
Have you considered these trolls might be paid as skirmishers to flesh out the same information you hope to glean from them; yet their material is nothing more than stale talking points, you patriots use original and creative thought to battle an enemy that isn’t real. They have never recruited a freedom loving Patriot to the Marxist Front and we have never recruited a troll Marxist; however, we do show them our reasoning and logic so that more intelligent Marxists than these witless morons can analyze and prepare their lemmings and Useful Idiots with fresh talking points.
They are an utter waste of time and cyber ink; debating these thougtless nitwits is like offering to help someone who has fallen down the outhouse hole and when you offer your hand he tries to pull you into the sh** with him.
Have you considered these trolls might be paid as skirmishers to flesh out the same information you hope to glean from them; yet their material is nothing more than stale talking points, you patriots use original and creative thought to battle an enemy that isn’t real. They have never recruited a freedom loving Patriot to the Marxist Front and we have never recruited a troll Marxist; however, we do show them our reasoning and logic so that more intelligent Marxists than these witless morons can analyze and prepare their lemmings and Useful Idiots with fresh talking points.
They are an utter waste of time and cyber ink; debating these thougtless nitwits is like trying to help someone who has fallen down the out house hole and when you offer your hand he tries to pull you in with him.
170. Eric:
“I think housing ought to be a “right”. Can I come over to your house and pick up a check for a new house for myself?”
Actually, Eric, as a broker o homeowner’s insurance, I’d be more than happy to help, but I’m afraid you have a pre-existing condition, and several liens, so I have to turn you down. Perhaps an FHA loan (you know the kind) is more your speed.
“You’ve got it wrong here, dear boy. I’m an Independent, support common sense and intelligent ideas.”
If that were true, you would not support a government takeover of healthcare. It will not work because it cannot. It will, if enacted, which thankfully appears unlikely now, lead to dismal results. See my previous post.
“I agree on this one. As part of the whole package.”
Forget it. The Democrats are completely in the pocket of the trial lawyers. It will never happen so long as they can oppose it.
Those people are actually quite representative of the electorate — especially the electorate willing to turn out to vote in the 2010 congressional elections.
It goes without saying—in your wettest dreams, dear. Republicans still have record low approval ratings.
Do you generally approve or disapprove of the way that Republicans in Congress are handling the issue of health care reform?
Approve ……………………………………..
21
Disapprove …………………………………
62
Not sure ……………………………………
17
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/NBC-WSJ_Poll.pdf
By the way that Washington Post article is an absolute refutation of your thesis:
Kaiser’s president and CEO, Drew Altman, worries that the media have devoted too much attention to “accusation and refutation” stories instead of focusing on the “core questions about health-care reform that the public wants answered.”
By “gravitating toward controversies” such as the recent boisterous town hall meetings on health care, he said, the media may “unwittingly” be allowing coverage to be shaped by evocative rhetoric and images.
Its true that the Washington Post didn’t spend enough time talking about the nuts and bolts of the issue, they were out there giving a few thousand nutballs who are completely contra-indicative of the mainstream of US political thought way more attention than they could have possibly deserved.
Judging by the number of ‘moonbat’ ‘libtard’ trolls posting on this subject they must be really really scared that their Obamanation is being exposed for what he is hence the concerted effort to circle the wagons and spew left wing Socialist propaganda. It seems the dumbing down of America really did work there is no other reason for people to be so naive , uniformed, unquestioning and gullible about the Marxist Mohammedan BOGUS POTUS Barrack, you can call me HUSSEIN now I won, Obama and his stupid America damaging policies. Obambi the man with NO PAPER TRAIL at all but fully supported by ignorant moonbats.
Check out this article called, RULES FOR (DEALING WITH)RADICALS, written by Henry Fernandez, senior fellow at ‘The Center for American Progress’. Americans really need to see how the Left wing progressives lie and demonize other American citizens.
________________________________________________________
By Henry Fernandez | August 7, 2009
Progressives around the country are pointing with concern to the antics of conservative activists over the course of the last few weeks. Left-leaning blogs such as DailyKos and ThinkProgress are afire with examples of conservatives acting badly:
The hanging of Rep. Frank Kratovil (D-MD) in effigy at a rally
Groups of conservative activists disrupting town hall meetings
Leaders in the conservative movement calling now Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor an affirmative action hire and a member of the Latino KKK
CNN talking head Lou Dobbs legitimizing fringe characters’ racist conspiracy nonsense about President Barack Obama being born in Kenya
Fox News’s Glenn Beck calling on patriots to take back America while saying that President Obama hates white people
Progressives deride these awful, frequently dangerous, and racist behaviors, and they then rightly call on conservative leadership to distance itself from these activities. Let me suggest though that if we wait for conservative leaders to show concern about the threat to civility and public safety in this new wave of “activism,” then progressives might as well surrender on climate change, health care reform, immigration, and just about everything else we stand for.
For many progressives, this same type of angry, scary conservative activism was first on full display less than a year ago at the presidential rallies of Sen. John McCain (D-AZ) and Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, when activists at their rallies shouted “terrorist,” and “kill him” about Barack Obama. But for those of us who work on immigration reform, we had seen this type of extreme right political theater well before then.
The strategies used by the “tea-party” clique, screamers in town halls, as well as conservative talk radio and television personalities were perfected in fighting progressive immigration reform. So here are some lessons that we have learned that hopefully will help our progressive allies in the health care reform, climate change, and energy debates as they go up against protesters organized and directed by a clutch of extreme right-wing groups in Washington, D.C.
These forces are organized and driven from above
While it is important strategically that anti-immigrant and now anti-health care forces appear to be simple manifestations of spontaneous disgust with progressive legislation, that is simply not the case. There are a small number of Washington-based organizations that provide strategy, funding, and talking points to “grassroots” groups.
In the case of the anti-immigrant cause, FAIR, NumbersUSA, and the Center for Immigration Studies, provide legal support and regional organizers to foster local groups, give them talking points and organizing strategies, as well as furnish them with easy-to-use online tools to get in touch with their members of Congress. In the anti-health reform arena, well-funded groups such as Americans for Prosperity, Conservatives for Patients Rights, and FreedomWorks play the same role. Other groups, among them Grassfire.org, are happy to switch between immigration, health care, and climate change to mobilize mostly manufactured conservative rage wherever they can find it.
The lesson: All strategies involving pushing back against these astro-turf forces should include addressing the national organizations, not just their local tentacles. Research how they are funded, what their ultimate goals are and what means they use to engage local activists. Then build the capacity to address them accordingly.
At the same time, it is important to ensure that local media treat the local manifestations of these groups as what they are; part of a conservative national strategy. These abusive hecklers are not local, suddenly angry people who otherwise might vote for a progressive.
On the immigration front, we learned that these organizations built large lists of issue-specific activists, boast sizable online organizing capacity, and direct specific field operations. With this information in hand, we are able to specifically organize responses to what they do and understand they are our primary nemesis, not some amorphous and spontaneous “will of the people.”
There are often strong ties to overtly racist groups
The leading anti-immigrant organization NumbersUSA often speaks about how it opposes racism. Yet if you go to the neo-Nazi website Vinlanders.com, right near the top of the page is a button linking you to NumbersUSA. And NumbersUSA consistently buys ads with known hate groups denouncing immigration reform. You will find the same thing around those highly organized tea parties. Posters on the white nationalist Stormfront.org website regularly encourage others to come out to tea party activities.
Indeed, the Anti-Defamation League reports that at some “tea parties,” white nationalists described being well received by conservative activists when passing out hateful literature while elsewhere they were not. The heavy involvement of social misfits, racists, and thugs does not happen by coincidence. It is instead an organizing strategy.
The Washington-based conservative organizations’ goal? To get people who are willing to come out for the cause no matter how destructive their behaviors or wrong their worldview. Whatever the foot soldiers believe and however they behave is okay as long as they are willing to show up in numbers and yell out carefully scripted talking points.
That’s why NumbersUSA chief executive Roy Beck and the leaders of other large Washington-based anti-immigration groups have spoken at meetings of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a virulently racist organization that calls black people a lower species of life. Similarly, conservative leaders are continually unwilling to denounce the behavior of the bizarre Orly Taitz, who is behind much of the patently racist “birther” movement. Denunciation would carry with it the loss of placard carrying, TV-ready angry citizens, much in demand by conservative leadership.
The lesson: Do not let these connections go unnoticed. Call conservative groups on their willingness to engage with racists. Do so publicly and with the press. Make it much harder for mainstream conservatives and elected officials to rely on racist organizations to move their messages or provide foot soldiers for their campaigns.
This is not the same as saying that everyone who opposes President Obama is a racist or that everyone who is concerned about securing our border is a bigot. Lots of decent people disagree fundamentally with many of the president’s policy positions, including on immigration, energy, and health care reform. But groups with clear antipathy toward other people because of their race should not be the army on which any legitimate group moves its political agenda.
Progressives will get pushback when they take these steps. Conservatives will say it’s not fair to call someone a racist. They will also argue about the need for all ideas to be discussed openly, no matter how ugly. But the immigration fight has shown that unless we tackle these connections to racist groups directly, repeatedly, and with clear defensible facts, then these bigots will continue, and increasingly offensive ideas will get treated as acceptable points of debate in the mainstream media. Equally important, mainstream conservatives will be able to use despicable people to disrupt public discourse while disavowing any knowledge of their actions or ugly beliefs.
They don’t want to have a debate, they want to shout you down
In the immigration fight, there are several basic issues that conservative and progressive supporters of comprehensive immigration reform can debate. For instance, how many people should be let into the country every year to engage in farm work and what labor organizing rights they should have are not universally agreed upon by people who want to pass a reform bill. So, in the normal course of legislation, a compromise would be reached that would not fully satisfy either side, but would suffice to get enough votes for passage.
But for true anti-immigrant groups, the only acceptable answer to how many new immigrants should be allowed in next year is zero. So their goal is to ensure that there is no chance for a compromise, no chance that conservatives and progressives sit down and find a number that is tolerable to both. Any such number would be millions more people than zero.
To address this conundrum, anti-immigrant activists have long used the tools of disruption. They harass their opponents in public settings, attack legislators looking for a solution as “traitors,” and try to shut down any rational discussion. And now of course, we see these same tactics playing out at health care town halls this summer. As we now know, organized conservative activists have been given instructions to:
“Pack the hall…spread out” to make their numbers seem more significant, and to “rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation…To yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early…. To rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda…Stand up and shout and sit right back down.”
Their only objective is to disrupt members of the House and Senate so that he or she cannot get into an honest dialogue with people who just came to the town hall to actually learn something. Honest dialogue is their enemy because facts are not in their favor.
The lesson: You have to know these tactics are going to happen and prepare for them. This means that every public event with an elected ally or potential ally requires a strong presence from supporters of health care reform or immigration or whatever progressive issue is under attack this week. Immigration advocates set up email lists to alert supporters whenever their voice is needed in a public meeting or even just to add their words to the comments following a news story online. Increasingly, progressive local blogs have started playing this role in the health care debate. The result: progressives have sometimes outnumbered “tea baggers” in some recent town halls.
Whether it’s a member of Congress’ town hall on health care, or a city council meeting discussing the need for progressive local immigration policies, progressives should from this point forward expect that a disorderly fringe has been fully embraced by conservative organizations and leadership. It is important to put systems in place to organize to get people out to these meetings, explain to the press who the opposition really is and how they got there, and be sure that the people organizing the event are aware of the possibility of disruption and have set ground rules to minimize it.
Lou Dobbs promotes conspiracy theories and CNN doesn’t care
Long before Lou Dobbs began sharing the lie that Obama was not born in Hawaii, he had other whoppers that did not stand up to even the slightest fact checking. This includes his trumpeting the conspiracy theory popular among skinhead and Minuteman types that Mexican-American U.S. citizens who have lived in this country for generations are engaged in a plot to return the southwest to Mexico. As bizarre as that one is, Dobbs is probably best known for another outright fabrication.
Dobbs used the lies of Madeleine Cosman to report that Latino immigrants were responsible for 7,000 new cases of leprosy in the United States a year. The recently deceased Kosman was a serial liar and anti-immigrant propagandist who had no expertise in leprosy or public health for that matter. The New York Times looked into Dobb’s reporting and found that the federal registry for Hansen’s disease (leprosy) had only 7,000 cases of leprosy in the last 30 years in our country. Dobbs refused to acknowledge this error, leading The New York Times to report that “Mr. Dobbs has a somewhat flexible relationship with reality.”
Just like with the “birther” controversy, CNN leadership fell back on Dobbs right to say what he wants on the “most trusted name in news.” The network and its owners took no action to stop Dobbs from sharing repeated conspiratorial lies with his viewers.
The lesson: The Southern Poverty Law Center’s letter to CNN to remove Dobbs and MoveOn’s petition condemning Dobbs’ promotion of “outlandish conspiracy theories” are right on target. Progressives should join this cause, exposing Dobbs to ridicule and consistently shaming CNN for its willingness to associate the CNN brand with racist conspiracy theories. Otherwise, Dobbs will continue to spread lies to undermine progressive goals in virtually every area from climate change to health care to immigration. And CNN will continue to look the other way.
Expect violence to occur and no one to take responsibility
Glenn Beck rants every night on Fox News about traitors, patriots, and the need to retake the United States. He calls Obama a “racist” with a “deep-seated hatred for white people” and says the president wants to take away your guns; all while encouraging his viewers to be the “defender of liberty.” The racist Pittsburgh cop killer Richard Poplawski and the alleged Holocaust Museum security guard murderer James W. von Brunn, both parroted in their writings their distaste for the new black president and their unfounded belief in his desire to take away their guns. When the connection to Beck’s rhetoric is drawn, Beck claims he has no responsibility. Actually he compares himself to a “flight attendant,” just warning Americans about the coming “worst case scenario.”
Where have we seen this all before? How about when long-time Minuteman personality Shawna Forde conducted a home invasion that led to the murder of the 9-year-old Mexican-American girl Brisenia Flores and her father two months ago. Suddenly, the national anti-immigrant movement and the full range of Minuteman groups got simultaneous amnesia discounting both her role in their efforts and their personal relationships.
Not so different from County Executive Steve Levy in Suffolk County, New York, whose anti-immigrant rhetoric has poisoned his community for years. But when teenagers in Suffolk allegedly beat and stabbed to death Ecuadorean immigrant Marcelo Lucero, Levy said that if the crime had happened elsewhere: “It would be a one-day story…You wouldn’t have all of the side stories trying to link motive to county policy.” Driving home this obvious moral sleight of hand, he added: “There are hate crimes in other areas that don’t get one scintilla of the same kind of coverage in Suffolk County.”
The conservative tactics at the health care town halls have now crossed the line to include violent behavior. At a town hall meeting in Tampa Bay, Rep. Kathy Castor (D-FL) faced conservative protestors banging on windows, trying to force their way into an already-filled hall, and engaging in a fistfight inside the meeting. This is not surprising. The combination of language used by Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and other conservative leaders, along with the very nature of who some of the activists are, almost guarantees that violence will eventually occur.
Indeed, many of the Tampa Bay conservative activists said they came because of notices posted on the website of Tampa912.org, an offshoot of Beck’s 912 Project. Expect that if and when this violence escalates, Minuteman amnesia will strike conservative leadership.
The lesson: The potential for violence is now a very real component of conservative organizing. For most conservatives, violence is as equally reprehensible as it is for most progressives. But the mixture of combustible rhetoric espoused by recognized conservatives on radio and television with the willingness of Washington-based conservative groups to incorporate truly reprehensible thugs in their local organizing due to the need for activist foot soldiers ensures that a line will be crossed, and crossed repeatedly.
There is no easy solution to confronting violence in our democracy. Many civil rights organizations working on immigration have implemented security plans to protect their employees. Similarly, members of Congress and progressive organizations will have to evaluate whether they can maintain safety at their public events. Issues of security including where people can sit, how many people can fill a hall, and determining whether the police attend certain gatherings are all part of planning for immigration meetings in the modern era.
Unfortunately this kind of planning must now also go into talking to constituents about whether their government will help them get affordable health care.
Henry Fernandez is a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress. To read more of his columns and the Center’s policy positions and recommendations on immigration and health care please go to the Domestic page of our website.
“You Dogs!’ Charles Dickens on the Coming Revolution”
by Jeff Snyder
At Lewrockwell.com
Kinda long, it but puts some of this behavior by politicians and journalists in perspective.
I also want to add that Jennifer Rubin has a bit more of a clue than many people on the right. Pay attention to what she’s saying and to the questions she’s asking.
If you keep asking questions and looking for the answers, even if you don’t like those answers, sooner or later you’ll get around to asking the right kinds of questions…and then the world will change.
187. Bart:
“‘You’ve got it wrong here, dear boy. I’m an Independent, support common sense and intelligent ideas.’
If that were true, you would not support a government takeover of healthcare.”
France, England, Canada . . . they are happy with theirs.
Vivo 173. When everyone is in the public option there will only be one way to reduce costs – rationing.
Vivo 193. I guess you don’t know a lot of people in Europe. I do, especially France and Germany. They have rationed health care and they are NOT happy with it.
178.kevin s.jharp is too ignorant and juvenile to be a pro.most likely,it is simply a very unhappy person who no one pays any attention to in the real world.
sheesh….maybe.he’s good enough to receive free internet and possibly some ‘lunchables’.no cash.(it might mess up the disability payments)
paid trolls are easy to spot.they come in,sticking to a specific subject-which they will not deviate from.usually they refrain from trading insults,and avoid all other topics of conversation.
125. goy:
“What do you think you won?”
The presidency, the House and the Senate, and at least two, maybe four SCOTUS appointments. You can keep the rest.
@188. Moho: – Republicans still have record low approval ratings.
Heh.
That only makes this phenomenon more compelling.
Also this one.
Oh, and this one too.
The real point, missed by the partisans, is that it’s Congress, as an institution, that has record low approval ratings.
Please: right wingers have been screaming at the top of their lungs: “Socialism!” “Death Panels!” “Government Takeover!” and so on with the usual rubbish. And the corporate media’s “coverage” of this has been the usual, “Ah, ummm, well, ummm, duhhhh….” he said, she said dumbf*ckery that puts malicious cranks on the same playing field as people who actually know what they are talking about. As has been the case with global warming, the cranks get enough exposure to confuse the easily confusable.
This has not been so much intelligent discussions of a proposal to fix a serious and growing problem as it has been an exercise in mud slinging and trying fool the gullible.
I think we always overrate big media. In general, these people hide within the protective mediocrity of very large corporations whose primary business is NOT media communication. News anchors rarely know how to do much besides get the make-up on in time to read the teleprompter. They usually don’t even know what they are reading and don’t have any idea how to extract information about the story from the reporter at the street level. Speaking of the reporters, they are usually more interested in catchy phrases, and props, and being sure they talk for the prescribed number of seconds, than they are in substance. Besides, substance requires effort and an inquiring mind. The worst part is that these individuals operate unwittingly as advocates of the real business agenda of the corporation that owns their company logo.
Print media is only slightly better. They typical print reporter is so lazy and uninformed that he/she just regurgitates the talking point memos of manipulative special interest groups, thereby becoming unwitting advocates. The science reporters are particularly guilty of this and that is why the talking points of the environmentalists get delivered to us ad nauseam. Politicians are used to using the media to advance their own careers. Journalists hardly ever tell the people what the people need to know because they are either too stupid, or too lazy, or too misinformed to separate the big story from the bull shoot.
To make matters even worse, look at the average aptitude of the students at most schools of journalism. Only the colleges of education attract a more mediocre crowd.
So, what did we expect?
After 8 years of the GOP allowing deregulated private industry to rape the taxpayer through no-bid contracts, backroom deals, hedge funds run wild, a housing bubble, and Bush pet projects that speant billions but achieved no results, the country clearly is feeling the effects of GOP leadership – the Treasury became an ATM for Dick Cheney and his buddies while working Americans and their families end up in debt, jobless and homeless.
The bottom line here is simple. Bush left your country in a colossal mess and Obama inherited it. And the fool hasn’t a clue about what to do. First he spent like a drunken sailor, just like his predecessor – now he is proposing to bring Americans univeral health care – which would be a great idea if you could afford it – but you can’t. You are all too deep in debt. In addition to that, he has been giving his friends this and that, just like Bush/Cheney did. Obama is nothing but a Chicago sleaze-bucket and a thief, and he’s brought all his friends along for the ride. The US treasury is now his private ATM.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not castigating you all for not picking McCain. McCrazy was a an old fool who should have retired long ago. You Americans didn’t have the chance of an iceberg in hell of coming out of this mess seriously unscathed. As for Jennifer Rubin’s article, it is only now that they are suffering serious revenue loss, that the idiots in the MSM are beginning to wake up. Even so, they are still in favor of Obama – your first immigrant president.
Americans, take a bow! You have chosen an immigrant for president, showing how truly inclusive you all are!
The media doesn’t and can’t understand (heads up their butts) that Obama is simply the straw that broke the camel’s back. This has been brewing for a while. Obama told the banking execs that he was the only thing standing between them and the people with the pitchforks. The pols in Washington don’t seem to realize that there’s no one between them and the pitchforks now.
Hear! Hear! That is the kind of thing we need to hear in Israel to get rid of the bought off traitors on Government Hull!
@198. BC: – right wingers have been screaming at the top of their lungs…
That’s simply desperate hyperbole.
The only conservatives – and moderates and liberals and independents – “screaming” in this context are the ones shouting to get the attention of their alleged “representatives”, who prefer to ignore them or refuse to talk about the subjects important to them or simply aren’t interested in listening to them. The ones who are destroying the discussion are the ones mindlessly and absurdly yelling “Health Care NOW! Health Care NOW!” … as if no one has access to health care.
- “Socialism!”
BHO’s and the Democrats’ agenda is nothing if not socialist (specifically, the national socialism closely aligned with corporatism and fascism).
- “Death Panels!”
Funny how a carefully chosen but otherwise benign metaphor was transformed – by BHO’s entrenched, lying, Fifth Column media shills – into more than just one person’s revulsion at NICE-style legislation, huh.
- “Government Takeover!”
As in… the financial sector. General Motors. Chrysler. Soon to be the entire health care sector…
None of this is “mud-slinging”. It’s calling a spade what it is: a spade.
Keep them blinders on, troll. Remain clueless. Persist in demonstrating your unhinged, partisan dementia. We’ll just make more popcorn.
@200. Ruvy: The bottom line here is simple. Bush left your country in a colossal mess …
I hate to be the one to have to clue you in here, but this topic is not as simple as you’d like to pretend. Bush was an abysmal leader. No question. He failed, utterly, to live up to classical liberal / conservative values, just like his father. He didn’t create the economic mess, however. His predecessor’s administration, then the Republican- and then the Democrat-majority Congress get that dubious honor.
Democrats pushed for “affordable mortgages” for years, pumping up the housing bubble that ultimately nuked the economy by infecting it with toxic assets at practically every level. Even without derivatives and such, the damage to the credit market would have been devastating. Republicans refused to stop that process for fear of being called “racists” when they knew it was the fiscally responsible thing to do.
In 2004, when it was obvious Fannie and Freddie were in the sh!t, Democrats refused to apply oversight and allowed FM and FM to run themselves into insolvency. Again, the Republicans refused to stop that train for the same reason – fears of being called ‘racist’. The same thing has happened with Medicare, which is now completely insolvent, and will only continue operation through deficit spending after 2012.
The wholly unaccountable Fed kept interest rates too low for far too long. Neither party did anything constructive to address that problem. No one controls the Fed – it’s an extra-governmental entity that is held accountable to no one – that’s why it sorely needs an audit.
But the fact is that, thanks to cutting back taxes and allowing the economy to function, we had economic growth throughout Bush’s two administrations until the Congress was swept by the Democrats, who immediately made their anti-economy, anti-business plans known when they pushed through the minimum wage hike. We’re starting to see the effects of that error with 16% unemployment. This move signaled the beginning of the Pelosi-Obama-Reid Economy, and it’s been all downhill from there with credit due to no one but the Democrat “leadership”. Bush has not been a factor.
Even without the “September Surprise” last year – when the financial sector somehow miraculously crashed at precisely the point where McCain took a lead over BHO in the polls after naming Palin as his running mate – the economy would have gone into the dump after November 4 because BHO had the most liberal, anti-business, anti-economy voting record in the Senate. Investors and businesspeople watch these things. They adjust their behavior accordingly. They don’t just sit back and wait to see what will happen.
The federal revenue/spending trend, which had us on track for a balanced budget by mid-2008 as late as January of 2007, was destroyed as soon as the Democrats took over Congress. Bush, to his credit, managed to pop the oil price bubble on July 14 of last year, but other than pushing through tax cuts, that’s the ONLY thing he did to affect the economy in either direction.
Clinton “gave” no-bid contracts to Halliburton too. Why wasn’t anyone whining about it then? In fact, both cases were situations where existing contracts were extended and/or where no other company was capable or qualified or interested in bidding the job. Do a little research on it.
Since taking office, the Democrats and BHO have QUADRUPLED the federal deficit. They have spent billions and been held utterly unaccountable for the fact that NONE of their predictions, used to justify the Spendulus, have panned out. They have increased government spending by the largest amount in all of recorded history. This isn’t justified by the mess the Democrat Congress created and the Republican Congress failed to correct. And it’s not explicable by “having no idea” what he’s doing. This is a deliberate push to destroy the existing economy and implement socialism in the U.S.
goy (are you sure this is a moniker you want?),
I never said that Bush created a mess (though by going to war with the wrong countries, he did create a huge mess). I simply said he left one. And yes, he was an abysmal leader – his father was a better leader, though I couldn’t stand what the bum did as leader. Further, I’m certainly not defending the prince of the setting sun, Obama. And I am the last person you need to tell about deficits – I’m very much a fiscal conservative.
I spent over four years warning all my friends about the coming economic crisis (that began in Sept. 2008) in the States; even a blind man knows that bubbles burst. When they are economic bubbles, they are a real mess because they ruin lives.
But really, if you had simply read what I had written, instead of assuming what I had written, you could have saved yourself eight paragraphs of typing….
204. Ruvy: – goy (are you sure this is a moniker you want?), …
You got a problem with it? I’m all ears. Please just don’t assume that I’m ignorant of the word’s meaning.
- I never said that Bush created a mess…
And I never claimed you did. In fact, I quoted your assertion directly. And I stated exactly what I meant. Bush left office at a point when Congress had created a colossal mess. Pointing out that he didn’t create that mess (emphasizing the word and, thus, the fact) in no way claims, infers or implies that you asserted as much.
– …(though by going to war with the wrong countries, he did create a huge mess).
Again, wrong. Since you cleverly didn’t specify, if you’re referring to Iraq, the use of military force there was fairly overwhelmingly approved by a bipartisan Congress in 2002. The contingencies placed on that approval had already clearly been fulfilled at the time the resolution passed, or the use of military force needn’t have even been seriously considered. Some 50 countries joined in the effort to rid Iraq of a homicidal, illegitimate, tyrant. America was already in a shooting war with Saddam before Bush was ever elected – going all the way back to Saddam’s refusal to comply with the armistice he signed after Desert Storm. Bush didn’t create a mess, he dealt with it. Whether one thinks he did so ‘poorly’ or ‘well’ is irrelevant. Few leaders get a war right on the first pass. Bush had lots of approval – both domestically and internationally – and lots of help. What he also had was a domestic and international media bent on his destruction.
Who created the mess associated with OIF was the left’s entrenched, lying, Fifth Column media shills. They misrepresented, distorted, exaggerated, ignored or blatantly lied about every event and every utterance by any disgruntled “former official” they could. They did so in order to exact revenge for Al Gore’s dismal failure to carry his own home State in November of 2000, thus losing the election, his self-respect and, ultimately, his composure and sanity. The media didn’t let up lying about Bush, his administration or the Republicans in Congress for the better part of 6 years. That’s part of what prevented a correction during the FM/FM debacle, which might have prevented the credit fiasco last year.
- … you could have saved yourself eight paragraphs of typing….
It was nine. And telling the truth is never a waste.
Ruvy: – goy (are you sure this is a moniker you want?), …
You got a problem with it? I’m all ears. Please just don’t assume that I’m ignorant of the word’s meaning.
Look at it this way – I’d never pick “kike” as a moniker. But, it’s your choice, and not for me to argue with….
…(though by going to war with the wrong countries, he did create a huge mess). Again, wrong. Since you cleverly didn’t specify, if you’re referring to Iraq, the use of military force there was fairly overwhelmingly approved by a bipartisan Congress in 2002….
Bush went to war with a fellow who his father double-crossed in 1990. Why GHW Bush double-crossed his “ally” from the 1980′s I do not know, but he did. But in 2001, the “country” that really attacked the United States was “Saudi” Arabia. Getting rid of Riyadh and the Wahhabi trash there would have done more to get rid of Wahhabi terrorism than all the soldiers getting wet in the swamps of the Euphrates have done since 2003. But it isn’t nice to pee on the bosses shoes, is it? And basically, the Bushes have been nothing but loyal servants to the pigs who misrule Arabia today.
Mind you, I’m not defending a disgusting father of rapists and pimps who bombed his own people (Saddam Hussein). But, for all that, he was a good ally of the likes of GHW Bush, may they both burn in hell.
There were weapons of mass destruction on the territory of Iraq. Debkafiles reported that they were shipped out of Iraq to the Beka’a in Lebanon, under Syrian control and guardianship before the American attack. You can’t find what isn’t there. So, following all this from Israel, all I saw was a stupid charade and game of “hide and go seek”. I won’t comment on the American media – it’s a wasted effort to comment on trash.
The inbred narcissists that are the mainstream “journalists” have become the perfect negative barometer. I listen and read, and in almost all instances, conclude the opposite of what they’re pitching. They’ve become caricatures of themselves; Ted Knight meets Les Nessman featuring featuring Ron Burgundy. They are a worthless waste of protoplasm.
206. Ruvy: – I’d never pick “kike” as a moniker.
Ah, so you’re the one who’s not familiar with the meaning of the term (at least among Jews here in the U.S.). I was schooled in its meaning by Holocaust survivors whose children I grew up with in Skokie, IL. You might try looking it up – it’s got a very different connotation from the ‘k’-word, whose meaning I learned from the same folks.
– Bush went to war with a fellow who his father double-crossed in 1990. … etc.
All well and good, and wholly in keeping with Michael Moore’s version of history. And completely irrelevant with respect to 2002/2003. Many countries in history have seen military conflict after being allies.
Read the Joint Resolution if you’re interested in knowing why Congress approved military action against Saddam. I don’t recall seeing anything about wahhabists, but it’s been a while since I’ve read it. People confuse the motivation to remove Saddam with the 9/11 plot by the Saudi fanatics who couldn’t be tied to the Saudi government directly in any event. Saddam wasn’t ousted because anyone thought he had anything to do with 9/11. 9/11 was a trigger for dealing decisively with terrorism, globally – something previous U.S. administrations refused to do. Saddam was a terrorist not only murdering his own people, but funding the murder of people in other countries as well (I’m guessing you were aware of this). And the U.S. didn’t go to war with Iraq, or the Iraqi people, as anyone can plainly see by looking at the relationship between the people and the U.S. Military there since the ‘surge’.
172. Kevin S:
One previous poster noted that posters like these get paid by a Soros fund. I had never thought of that before, but it sounds plausible.
~~~~
There was a paid “troll” during the campaign who came out and said they were paid for this – it was a “troll” who decided after being on the inside, and seeing what they really were, really didn’t want “hope-n-change”. Other’s have also come forward and said the same thing, that they were paid trolls.
Then of course there were the obeymugabe’s campaign “volunteers” who were promised gift cards in return for their “volunteerism”. Seems they got really cranky when the gift cards weren’t immediately forthcoming. (gee, who’d'a thunk it?)
194. william:
“Vivo 173. When everyone is in the public option there will only be one way to reduce costs – rationing.”
I thought cost can be reduced by negotiating drug and supplies prices, limiting lawsuits awards to patients, reducing doctors’ insurance costs, improving billing procedures, computerization, better technical education and maybe dozens of other things, including management.
Ah, so you’re the one who’s not familiar with the meaning of the term (at least among Jews here in the U.S.). I was schooled in its meaning by Holocaust survivors whose children I grew up with in Skokie, IL. You might try looking it up – it’s got a very different connotation from the ‘k’-word, whose meaning I learned from the same folk
I see you picked up more from the Jews of Evanston than the meaning of the word “goy”. But, I won’t get into that – I’d rather keep this on a gentlmanly level….
You do realize that it was American money – particularly money from the Union Bank (as in money from Prescott Bush) – that created the Saudi Thugdom of Arabia. You also realize, I hope, that the United States helped nurture, if not actually create, al-Qaeda in the 1980′s in attempting to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan. This is not “history” according to that fat pig Michael Moore. Moore just skimmed the top to do a hatchet job on Bush in 2004. Whas I cite you is fact.
Groups like al-Qaeda would not have even existed, in other words, without the mother’s milk of American support – first for the Wahhabi thugdom, and then for its spoor, like al-Qaeda. Put just a bit differently, the greed of American bankers helped bite the USA in the butt, but good, in 2001. And the American president, the grandson of one of these bankers, refused to go after the suppurating boil on the Arabian peninsula feeding Wahhabi terror. Like I said, peeing on the bosses shoes is impolite.
From the point of view of money spent, it is my considered opinion that once that scum, Saddam Hussein, had been forced from office, it would have been better for the Americans to just get out. It is also my considered opinion that destroying the Wahhabi thugdom and putting an American occupation force on the Persian gulf to control the oil would have done far more to rid the world of trash like Saddam Hussein. Allowing us Israelis to repeat the attacks on Iraq destroying the WMD’s there would have gotten rid of that problem as well, and given the ayatollahs the clear message that without American say-so, no nuclear power would be allowed to arise. But these are all lost opportunities – it’s no use crying over spilled tehina.
From #210. Vivo, your comment “limiting lawsuits awards to patients, reducing doctors’ insurance costs,…” are one problem which the Dems won’t address. Reducing Awards to patients also limits awards to the ambulance chasers. Start with Tort Reform and you get reduced doctor’s expenses.
Vivo 210. This can all be done without the government by allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines. As proven in the great American enterprize, competition is one of the principal keys to economic prosperity.
ruvy:interesting points,could you please provide a link with source material to back up this statement:”You do realize that it was American money – particularly money from the Union Bank (as in money from Prescott Bush) – that created the Saudi Thugdom of Arabia”
“Death panels is a morbid lie.”
Semantics. It is NOT physically possible under current staffing to provide everyone with health care.
Lets try a little logic. Little because most liberals are not equipped to handle a lot of logic.
The Left claims 57 million uninsured. Current population estimates for the USA are around 310 million. So that means the health care available now covers 253 million, give or take a small village or two. So you expect the current health care system to expand to handle another 20% or so.
Do the resources for this 20% increase come out of thin air? Pixie dust? Carbon credits? Left-over cell phone minutes?
The Demonrats are saying that resources will just appear because Congress passes a law…. The voters aren’t buying it.
So we are back to supply and demand, that natural law that liberals don’t believe exists. The cost of medical care is high because there isn’t enough to go around. Making it stretch even farther isn’t going to make it cheaper. Having the government pay for it won’t lower the price either. So to save money, the government will HAVE to decide which patients are worth spending money on and which ones should be allowed to die.
Hence “Death Panels”.
I would prefer to call them ‘Triage Committees’ and have them staffed by Doctors, but with a 20% increase in workload, doctors won’t have the time.
According to the USA Today, there were 800,000 Doctors in America in 2005. About 25,000 per year are being turned out and it takes about 10 years to train a doctor.
So right now there are about 321 patients per doctor. Obamacare will increase that to about 385. How is that going to make affordable health care available for everyone?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm
http://www.who.int/whosis/en/
Interesting data in that WHO data base. Not sure I believe it all, since GIGO has a permanent home at the UN.
@211. Ruvy: – I see you picked up more from the Jews of Evanston …
Eh… no. I was pretty explicit. The only time I spent in Evanston was (a) riding my bike through it to get to the beach, and (b) the one (and only) time our H.S. gymnastics team ever kicked the crap out of theirs (and on their home turf, to boot). Actually, to be truthful it was only by several tenths of a point, but since it had never happened before (nor since, AFAIK), it was considered by both teams to be somewhat of a crap-kicking.
I imagine things have changed in that area enormously over the past 40 years. When I lived in Skokie, Evanston was a largely minority/black township (e.g., 80% or so of the above-mentioned g-team was black). That has apparently changed since then. Interestingly, the largely Hasidic area of Chicago we lived in, prior to Skokie, is now inhabited primarily by Korean immigrants (e.g., Lawrence Ave. was renamed “Seoul Blvd.” last time I visited). Obviously, my handle has a history.
- You do realize that it was American money – particularly money from the Union Bank (as in money from Prescott Bush) – that created the Saudi Thugdom of Arabia.
Actually, no, I don’t. It’s not at all that simple. The thugdoms in both Saudi and Iran were made possible through the development of oil production infrastructure by the U.S. and Great Britain, respectively. Iran (then Persia) reneged on their treaty with Britain at the hands of its first thug (ironically, a largely secular communist) and the Saudis have done pretty much the same albeit over a much longer period of time and in a much more slimy manner, by manipulating other governments – including the U.S. – through the manipulation of oil.
As far as the resistance to the Soviet invasion, it’s a tad unrealistic to hold contemporary American interests accountable for the behavior and/or the lack of loyalty on the part of the islamist resistance. Unless you’re going to assert that their American supporters could somehow see into the future, and knew what they would do, this entire line of reasoning is pretty pointless.
- Groups like al-Qaeda would not have even existed, in other words, without the mother’s milk of American support …
Uh-huh. And the Iraqi national security forces now fall into the same category. When Iraq rises up against some country in some future decade, will it once again be time to hold America responsible for their actions as well? Israel, in fact, would likely not exist in its present form if it hadn’t been for U.S. support following the fiasco created by the failed League of Nations, Balfour and Britain’s meddling in the Middle East in pursuit of oil. If Israel is ever forced to nuke Iran, will that be America’s fault?
In all this, I think we can comfortably agree on the character of GHWB.
In my opinion this shady character is personally responsible for more conflict, pain and human suffering on this planet than the last dozen U.S. Presidents combined. That includes FDR, who did his level best to corrupt and bankrupt America and turn it into a totalitarian state – just like BHO is doing now – and Truman, who authorized the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Where FDR failed, as much of his unconstitutional policies were repealed, GHWB has manipulated the CIA and the federal government for decades, and never been held accountable for the direct result of his actions – including his betrayal of the Kurds and anti-Ba’athist Iraqis, which ultimately led to OIF. If memory serves, he was the first to use the term New World Order in public oratory, and it’s clear to me, looking back, as well as seeing his all-too-chummy relationship with the Clintons, that he’s just as big a part of the globalist putsch for the centralization of power as anyone. That, as I see it, is his motivation for cozying up to the oil barons in Saudi, which is just a small part of a much larger picture. Had it not been for 9/11, GWB would have been more of the same – but events forced his hand.
215. John “birther” Samford:
“Death panels is a morbid lie.”
“The Left claims 57 million uninsured. Current population estimates for the USA are around 310 million. So that means the health care available now covers 253 million, give or take a small village or two. So you expect the current health care system to expand to handle another 20% or so.
Do the resources for this 20% increase come out of thin air?”
The current health system is handling the uninsured through emergency rooms.
212. Paul -Indiana:
“Start with Tort Reform and you get reduced doctor’s expenses.”
I’m all for it.
213. william:
“Vivo 210. This can all be done without the government by allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines.”
That would just make the insurers bigger, more bureaucratic and greedy for profits. Maybe you know something I don’t.
@218. vivo: – “Start with Tort Reform and you get reduced doctor’s expenses.” … I’m all for it.
Great. Now be a good little troll and go tell your messiah. Neither he nor the rest of the attorneys in Congress seem to be interested in Tort Reform at all. In fact, BHO seems to be developing a serious disconnect with his political base.
Instead of spending your time spewing nonsense here, you might want to work on setting him straight.
So to speak.
Vivo 213. Are you saying the US Government being the sole provider of healthcare would not bring about the same result? Tha’s pure fantasy.
Paul 212. Great point, I should have mentioned it before. Also, I think all law schools should be closed for 10 years and 50% of lawyers be disbarred.
For a “senior commentator,” Broder doesn’t offer much. The problem is not health care; America has the finest in the world. The problem is the cost of health insurance. The reason health insurance costs so much is because Democrats have spent 40-years sabataging it. Their plain purpose has been to impose their Socialist solution, making voters dependent on big government controlled by them.
The solution is not more government control, but less. Tort reform, getting the trial lawyers off our backs; tax credits for part of health insurance premiums; and freeing insurers to compete across state lines, would go a long way toward lowering insurance costs, while preserving freedom, not denying it. Fat chance, with the present fascist regime in office. Since Broder can’t bring himself to understand either the problem or its solution, his opinions are worthless.
People just don’t trust Legislators because they aren’t worthy of trust.
They are All domestic enemies of the fact that the free people of this society secured the things that citizens can freely do while they are about their liberties, to themselves and to their posterity, or rather to a agreement between conventions of the people outside of government in at least 3/4s of the states. Well, inside the laws of this land anyway.
Domestic Enemies of the Constitution every one of them along with their traitorous supporters and gunmen.
Rebels in government positions have undermined the peoples trust in government.
My political view are center right. I have a lot of friends who are Liberal and who are generally thoughtful, intellegent people. However, what I find increasingly scarey is their willingness to believe everything the liberal mainstream media is spewing forth. AND their utter contempt for people who believe differently than their brainwashed versions of what is really going on.