Ask Dr. Helen: Kissing Cousins
Reader RW writes in:
Hello Dr. Helen, Please help me. I want to find out if I can marry my second cousin. I am in love with my dad’s first cousin. She is my Dad’s mother’s sister’s daughter. We are the same age, please tell me if our children will be deformed. Can we marry?
Thanks,
RW
Dear RW, First of all, I believe (and I am sure someone out there will correct me if I’m wrong) that rather than your second cousin, the woman you want to marry is your first cousin–once removed. Your great grandparents are her grandparents making her your first cousin–once removed. This cousin stuff is confusing but can be made easier by taking a look at this Wikipedia entry that illustrates the relationships between cousins and how one is to refer to them. In answer to your question, you can probably marry a first cousin, once removed–heck, you might be able to legally marry your first cousin–not removed–if you live in certain states. And in answer to your question about deformed children, you can read about the statistics of cousin marriage at cousincouples.com:
Children of non-related couples have a 2-3% risk of birth defects, as opposed to first cousins having a 4-6% risk. Genetic counseling is available for those couples that may be at a special risk for birth defects (e.g. You have a defect that runs in your family) In plain terms first cousins have at a 94 percent + chance of having healthy children. Check the links section for more information on genetic counselors. The National Society of Genetic Counselors estimated the increased risk for first cousins is between 1.7 to 2.8 percent, or about the same a any woman over 40 years of age.
You can also learn other cousin facts such as:
26 states allow first cousin marriages; most people can marry their cousin in the US;
The frequency of cousin marriages in the USA is about 1 in 1,000. The frequency of cousin marriages in Japan is about 4 in 1,000;
It is estimated that 20 percent of all couples worldwide are first cousins. It is also estimated that 80 percent of all marriages historically have been between first cousins!
Albert Einstein married his first cousin. And so did Charles Darwin, who had exceptional children.
So, RW, while you may get some weird looks from people if you tell them you married your cousin, it seems that you are in good company. I hope this information helps you with whatever you decide.
Dr. Helen
Next, Danielle asks:
Dear Dr. Helen:
I am a 21 year old college student, about to graduate with my bachelor’s and am in the process of applying to graduate school. I have lived in various regions of the US and have spent about a year in both the UK and Africa. I live a full life and every day is something new. I’m young and unattached so I figure it’s ok to experience life randomly and freely. I don’t really get into relationships and have never (even in high school) had a real boyfriend. However, I have met a man who has changed my perspective.
I never intended to get married but I always wanted lots of kids (six or more). But now, I have met a man who is on a totally different page. He and I have a really great relationship; we have fun together, we talk, we’re intimate, and we respect one another. But he is 33 and ready to get married and have his first child…within the next year. I never even considered these things at least for another 5 or 6 years but he is ready now and I feel like he is shoving it down my throat. He always asks when are we getting married? Or he will make comments like, “I need to get you pregnant!” Or sometimes, right before we make love, he’ll say, I can’t wait to hear our little boy kicking in there! It drives me crazy and I’m feeling overwhelmed because while I do love him, I feel like I need him to wait for me. We’ve been dating about a year. I finally set him down and had a talk with him about the situation. I expressed how I wanted to finish school first and make sure our relationship was solid by dating another few years before we made that type of commitment. His excuse is that I am flaky and there is a chance that I could leave him. I feel like these are his insecurities and he is overeager to start his married/fatherly life before he gets too old. Am I being unreasonable or is this relationship doomed due to the two of us being on different time tables?
Dear Danielle,
It sounds like you have two questions: 1) Do you really want six kids? and 2) do you want to have them with this man? Many women think that they would like six kids but after having the first, realize that one, two or maybe three is enough. If you do not have experience with kids, take care of a friend’s children and see how you feel. You may change your mind. If you are truly committed to having six kids, you may need to have them sooner than five or six years from now. After 30 or 35, it gets harder to have children so if your dream is to have six, start early. Also, you mentioned that you want six kids but never intended to get married. How did you plan to raise them–alone with six kids? That seems a bit naive, not to mention the problem with the children not having a father around. That said, do you really want them with this man? Do you want him specifically to be the father of your children?
As I read your letter, two things concerned me in your description of your boyfriend. First, I noticed that you mentioned that your boyfriend stated, “I need you to get pregnant,” with no thought to what you want. Second, when you tried to explain your feelings, your description made it sound like he did not take any responsibility and ask what he could do to make things better between you. He simply blamed you by stating that you are flaky and might leave him. Have you given him reason to believe this? Maybe you have and don’t realize it. If not, then he might have a tendency to externalize blame to others if he does not get his way. Is he like this in other areas of your relationship? Can you talk with him freely about problems or issues that you have without him blaming you for them? Ask yourself some of these questions and your decision may become clearer as time goes on.
A relationship is about give and take, and compromise. Do you feel that he cares about your needs as much as he does his own? Does he ever ask you what you would like in a relationship or what would make you happy? The answers to these questions should be “yes.” You state that you want to go to graduate school. It is possible to do that while married and with children, but it is hard. How important is your career to you? Is it something that you can go back to after having children? How would you feel about yourself if you did not go to graduate school immediately? It seems that I have more questions for you than answers but once you answer these questions honestly with yourself, I think you will have your answers. Good luck.
Dr. Helen
If you have a question you would like answered, please leave it below or email me at askdrhelen@hotmail.com. Your questions may be edited for length and clarity. Please note that your first name only or no name at all will be used to identify your question-if you want me to use your name, tell me, otherwise you will be referred to by your first name or as “a reader” etc.
Helen Smith is a psychologist specializing in forensic issues in Knoxville, Tennessee and blogs at drhelen.blogspot.com. This advice column is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not purport to replace therapy or psychological treatment.
Having six kids with no marriage is a wonderful idea if you want the children to be poor. Unmarried parents and different fathers for different children is a fantastic predictor for the children growing up in poverty. Maybe you have trustfund money and can hire people to take care of them, but there is still the problem of no dad to help in general and tame the boys in particular. Otherwise, your non-family dreams sound naive.
Children require large amounts of love, time, attention, and money to turn out well. Maybe in that order. 6 to 1 is not a happy ratio or well considered plan.
Trey
Precisely because he is older, he knows that “5 or 6 years” really is a long time. I don’t think it’s terribly realistic to expect anyone to make a 5 or 6 year commitment to stay together, without marriage or children. This man may very well have already had friends who were in such relationships that didn’t work out (“we’ll stay together forever, even if we go to different graduate schools,” followed by a Dear John letter a year or two later).
My step-mother and my father married with a similar age difference… she was 24, he about 37. That’s mostly worked out for them, and she in fact did earn her Ph.D… at the same time the youngest of her 5 children was born, some 15 years after they got married. But she never had quite the wanderlust that the young letter-writer seems to have.
To me, the biggest danger sign here is that the letter-writer has never had a serious relationship before. It’s hard for her to judge the depth of her feeling for him, because these feelings are very new, and she’s got nothing to judge them against. The only way she’s going to be able to understand her emotions better, I think, is to go through another boyfriend or two, which is not going to be compatible with a several year dating period with this guy.
“If your family tree does not fork….”
Oh well, let’s be picky about genealogy (my late mother-in-law was and she taught me). We all know what first cousins are; the children of our parents’ siblings, and we needn’t get into double cousins, whose parents on both sides are siblings, or into cultures that distinguish between the various gender combinations of the siblings.
The children of first cousins are second cousins.
A first cousin once removed is the child or the parent of a first cousin who is not more nearly related, e.g. me and a child of one of my first cousins. Twice removed means a two-generation gap.
Forty-plus years ago, my aunt was about to marry a younger man. He wanted children; she didn’t.
My mother, her sister, and her betrothed went on a beach trip with me and my two younger brothers (ages 2, 5, and 8). The two women agreed to do nothing to discipline any of us boys.
On the way home, my soon-to-be uncle said, “You know, I’ve been thinking. Perhaps we would be happier without children.”
The genetic risks of consanguineous marriage change depending on the frequency. In Saudi Arabia, where approximately 1/3 of marriages are consanguineous, the genetic problems are quite different than in a place like the US where 0.1% of such marriages are like that. Look a little higher up the tree to see if perhaps this marriage is not a good idea. If cousin marriage is a family tradition…
The taboo against consanguineous marriages arises from two sources. The first is the discussed genetic issues. The second issue is more sociological. Intermarriage is a way to keep power and wealth “in the family”. If you want a profoundly inbred ruling class, making cousin marriages respectable is a good way to do it over the long run. The Catholic Church never worried about the genetic issues in medieval times but the power concentration issues led them to ban marriage out to 4th cousin levels at one point.
“Albert Einstein married his first cousin. And so did Charles Darwin, who had exceptional children.”
In the military an “exceptional family member” is someone with mental and/or physical problems, so you may want to refine that term a bit. If you have a family member in the Exceptional Family Member Program you have to have a family screening before you can be rotated to a new job to make sure your new post can give adequate support.
I watch way too much AFN.
Oh, I used to work at a genealogy software company and there is an undocumented feature/keystorke that tech support will sometimes ask you to perform for them, and it will tell them whether you have a family tree or a family vine depending on the number thap pops up. If you have a popular version of windows genealogy software try CTRL+ALT+SHFT+F11 and see if you get the RNQ.
Linda — Aren’t the children of my first cousins my first cousins, once removed?
My wife and I have 6 kids, started with the first at age 30 (we are within a year of each other in age). Two are in college, public but still expensive, two in high school, two in grade school.
We went private school for the kids in grade school and HS. That is the only thing we can give our children that no one can take away from them, a good education. Remember that since a good education is costly a good plan is to get graduate school out of the way before having children, and had to include mariage and partnership. That is what we did.
We were together for 8 years before marriage and wanted to complete our graduate college degrees and get married before having children. That 8 years made us totally sure we were doing the right thing. So the longer you can wait the better off you will be in regards to your relationship if you can work it out.
Six kids, a wonderful wife, a wonderful relationship, and I have never been happier.
So don’t rush. It is not necessary for the woman especially until around 30. If the relationship is to much pressure then there is something wrong. If the guy cannot wait another 2 or 3 years for marriage then something IS wrong. If he wants to saddle someone so young with 6 kids immediately then something IS wrong.
For the long term relationship to work it must include marriage (or something like it – a permanent commitment), and as mentioned above a partnership. Marriage means not giving up after 6 years or 10 or 20 (and defintiely not planning on giving up in 5 or 6 years, by not having permanent relationships – one needs to grow beyond this type of thinking). Plus all the problems that evolve from divorces, for the parents, and for the kids especially, due to lack of money, lack of parents avialability, lack of extended family support. That means loading society with long term problems, not just youself.
No, you are better off waiting a few more years before commiting, getting married, then beginning a family. Test the relationship for several years to make sure you are both totally committed at least before any of this. It worked for my family.
I agree with Dr. Helen that it may be difficult to give birth to 6 children if you don’t start young, but don’t forget about the possiblity of adopting. I know several large families that include birth children and adopted children
Whether you are planning a large familiy or a single child, don’t rush! It sounds like you do have a very fulfilling life right now. Children will fill your life in a different way. That’s a wonderful blessing when you are ready, but could feel like a burden if you feel like having children has prevented you from pursuing other goals and dreams. You can have it all (or most of it at least), but not at the same time.
In Egypt for many generations, the king and queen were named Ptolemy and Cleopatra, and they were brother and sister. They would have at least two children named Ptolemy and Cleopatra who would take over the dynasty in their turn. There’s no evidence that any of the Ptolemy and Cleopatras were genetic mutants.
Given the likelihood of multiples with IVF, starting late may be another way to have lots of kids (says the father of twins).
What ronbo said (says the father of triplets).
Trey
My wife and I talked a lot about having six kids before we were married. Everything went fine until #5 showed up 13 months after #4. She decided five was enough, so we stopped at five. She was 22 when the first was born, 31 when she had her last, and in her mid-fifties when the last one was out of school. That’s a huge commitment.
My advice to your young questioner is to run like hell in the opposite direction if she has any doubt AT ALL about making that commitment, especially with that guy.
You don’t have to start too early to have six kids. My parents met in their late 20′s and didn’t have the first kid until age 29 and still managed to have nine kids (no twins or triplets in the bunch).
“Albert Einstein married his first cousin.” …which is beside the point. Were HIS parents first cousins? If so, you might have a case.
As for the inane comment about the Ptolemies, one needn’t look that far back for an example of royal inbreeding!
Although Einstein married his first cousin, that was the second marriage for both, and they didn’t have any children together. Both of Einstein’s sons (and a possible daughter who may have been given up for adoption before his first marriage) were conceived with his first wife, Mileva Maric.
Oh well, let’s be picky about genealogy (my late mother-in-law was and she taught me). We all know what first cousins are; the children of our parents’ siblings, and we needn’t get into double cousins, whose parents on both sides are siblings, or into cultures that distinguish between the various gender combinations of the siblings.
The children of first cousins are second cousins.
A first cousin once removed is the child or the parent of a first cousin who is not more nearly related, e.g. me and a child of one of my first cousins. Twice removed means a two-generation gap.
Heh, my grandparents on my mother’s side were third cousins.
All their kids came out fine, but my mother did go and marry a Mexican (my dad). Does make me wonder…*taps chin*
The Catholic Church publishes tables of consanguinity: They are available online and will solve the actual relationship questions. There are two measures, cannon and civil: Cannon only applies to the Church.
For most people in most jurisdictions the closest marriage allowable will be Civil 2, or roughly a person who shares one grandparent with you. A first cousin, who shares two grandparents, is only allowable if the bride is pregnant, for most places. (An unrelated couple has eight grandparents, first cousins have six, siblings four.)
I am my own fourth, half-sixth, sixth (in three different ways) and seventh cousin. Just to be confusing.
Here’s my timeline. I’m 42…college first…then kid at 27…finished last year of school when he was 4 years old, then started my career.
I have not encountered too many dificulities while finishing school and in rasing him (16 now) while moving up the ladder by doubling my income in 11 years.
I have two things on the horizon in less than 2 years. 1. Empty Nest when he goes to college. 2. Freedom to invest more time in my projects and hobbies.
Just a few thoughts. By the way, My Man left in Oct. 05, and in dating again, I have a 3 date policy, at 42, I know what I want and I don’t want to invest time training some guy for another girl to get. If the guy doesn’t talk much and never talks about his feelings, OR if he only talks about himself and doesn’t ever ask about me or my day…he’s OUTTA THERE!
Having six kids is totally irresponsible. Especially in this age of over crowding and the need to protect the environment and perserve resources. If everyone in the world wanted six kids like this woman we would be in a whole lot of trouble. What is wrong with people. Even two kids is pushing it.
Not everyone wants six kids. End of story.
You know, you shouldn’t be a lawyer. If everyone wanted to be a lawyer, there’d be no one to manufacture anything or produce any food. Limit yourself to two years of being a lawyer AT MOST.
I WANT TO MARRY MY MOTHER SISTER SECOND SON WHO IS SMALLER THEN ME IN AGE HE IS 18YERAS & MYSELF HIS 21YERAS BUT HE LOOKS BIGGER THEN SO CAN I MARRY TO HIM OR NOT SAY ME I LOVE HIM