Loving the Israeli Wall
As Alan Dershowitz points out in The Case for Peace, security barriers have also been erected by India, Cyprus, and even by the United Nations, which installed a security barrier to protect Kuwait from Iraq. The United States is justifiably constructing a fence along its southwestern border with Mexico to prevent the influx of illegal immigration. The wall that India is now completing to seal off its border from Bangladesh is one of the most impressive of the lot: it is three meters high and 2,500 miles long. Nor, for that matter, has its righteous indignation against the Israeli fence prevented the UN from constructing a security fence of its own around its headquarters in New York City. Oddly enough, no mention is made of the wall built by Egypt to check the flow of Gazans into the country. And while we’re at it, let’s not forget the Great Wall of China, celebrated as one of the Seven Wonders of the World and now a major tourist attraction, whose original purpose was much like Israel’s.
Both the American and Israeli fences have been compared to the Berlin Wall, an accusation which misses the point entirely. The Berlin Wall was intended to keep citizens in, not interlopers out. That was a wall that vindicably had to be torn down, as President Reagan exhorted Mikhail Gorbachev. But after the reunification of Germany, the UN — and, of course, the EU and the bristling legions of “rights” organizations — have been predictably silent about every other barricade in the world except, to a limited degree, America’s, and to a much vaster extent, Israel’s. The Big Satan and the Little Satan are plainly committed to defending the boundaries of their respective hells, which for one reason or another people insist on entering.
Adding to the devil’s brew, EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana has been consistently critical of the Israeli barrier, the most likely reason being that it spares Jewish lives. Naturally, there is not a word from Solana, a Spaniard, about the fences built by Spain with EU funding and over Moroccan objections around Ceuta and Melilla, the Spanish enclaves on the North African coast, to keep out Arab refugees. Nevertheless, as we have seen, complaints continue to abound from juridical and governmental institutions about the security fence separating Palestinian farmers from their fields. These organizations refuse to recognize that, absenting the fence, Palestinian terrorists are determined to separate Israeli citizens from their lives, which is obviously a matter of no importance.
In Frost’s poem, the protagonist speculates further about the uselessness of the wall his curmudgeon neighbor insists on patching up. A wall makes sense, perhaps, where there are cows,
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I’d ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out
And to whom I was like to give offence.
The Israelis know very well what they are walling out, and it isn’t cows, pine cones, or olive groves. And it matters not a whit to whom it is “like to give offence.” Playing on Frost’s astringent pun, it is not a question of “offence,” but of “a fence” that just happens to save lives. Navi Pillay, Javier Solana, the International Court of Justice, and the rest of that sanctimonious crew have neither the right nor the moral authority to affect outrage or promulgate demands.
“Good fences make good neighbors,” Frost’s wall-loving farmer concludes, which, as the last line of the poem, continues to resonate in the reader’s mind, as the poet no doubt intended. Like the first line, it is twice repeated, to maintain the thematic balance. Obviously, something there is that loves a precept, especially if it is a good one. One notes that it is not the “old-stone” farmer but the skeptical speaker of the poem who actually initiates the process, alerting his neighbor that the time has come to mend the wall:
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
It is as if the speaker subliminally concedes an implicit truth he would prefer were not the case. Even if one would rather have it otherwise and dispense with the need for barriers entirely, under certain circumstances good fences may indeed make good neighbors. It is moot, however, whether the Palestinians will ever make good neighbors, but from Israel’s perspective — and from the perspective of any other nation that might find itself in an analogous position — good fences clearly make less destructive neighbors.
GREAT ARTICLE! I SPENT,RECENTLY, ALMOST ONE MONTH IN ISRAEL AND I REALIZED PERSONALY ABUT THE STRATEGIC,VITAL,CRUCIAL IMPORTANCE OF THE SO CALLED WALL.WHEN I WENT TO BETLHEM MY PALESTINIAN TAXI DRIVER WANTED TO SHOW ME THE BARRIER,BUT WHEN I SAID NO TERRORISM NO WALL,HE DID NOT UTTER A WORD.MUCH BETTER THAN SOLANA.AS EUROPEAN I’A ASHAMED ABOUT HIM.I HOPE HE WILL BE REPLACED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE FROM THE EUROPEA COMMISSION.
I love people here in the U.S. who claim in spite of all evidence that walls and fences do not work……….. They have them around prisons and nuc facilities and they must work just ducky, as when someone gets out of the first or into the second you hear about it ………. can anyone remember the last time they heard about either
I take it you are not surprised that the barrier’s critics not only do not mention similar and more extensive barriers, but that they seem to be able to take the murder of Jews in stride. Such people display a delicate sensitivity to the sins and shortcomings of Jews and as to the sins of those whose stated goal is to kill as many Jews as possible, well, they don’t condone them, of course, but they understand.
This excludes Solana, who actually seems to hate Jews.
“Good fences make good neighbors.” But what if your neighbor’s fence cuts into your back yard?
The Israelis are perfectly justified in building a defensive wall. The problem is where they built it.
Most of the “wall” examples the author noted were built on recognized borders. But though the Israeli security fence roughly follows the Green Line, there are several points where it cuts through Palestinian lands.
The author belittles how the wall is criticized for “separating Palestinian farmers from their fields.” If those were your fields and your livelihood, you’d be pretty upset as well. Add to this the archaic land system Israel uses, whereby most land is not “owned” by individuals, but rather “leased” by the government on the condition the land not lie fallow. But it’s hard to cultivate your land if there’s a wall in your way. The land thus risks reverting to the Israeli government. It can be seen as a “legal” route for Israel to seize Palestinian land.
I do believe Israel has a right to build a wall to keep out terrorists. The dramatic drop in suicide bombings is testament to how effective the idea has been. But why not simply follow the Green Line?
I have the perfect solution. Build a 20 foot impenetrable barrier around Gaza. Let them Jihad themselves out of existence and then dismantle it. Problem solved.
Good for the Israelis. They need to tell the UN and everyone else to get their noses the hell out of Israel’s business. I try to avoid using the language that would accurately describe how I feel about the UN, but I assure you it would melt concrete. Those people are the biggest thieves and crooks on earth, and given the competition they’ve got elsewhere, that’s saying something!
I believe Israel should line the wall with flowers and singing birds so people on both sides of the wall can sing and dance while experiencing utopian peace and joy! There, “moderators”, is that a more insightful, appealing and socially responsible posting?
Build a 20 foot impenetrable barrier around Gaza. Let them Jihad themselves out of existence and then dismantle it. Problem solved.
As anyone who lives in S’derót, or Haifa or Shlomi can tell you, rockets and missiles go over walls. It’s this technical thing, I guess; things you shoot into the sky have to come down somewhere, you know.
The problem with the wall is not that it separates Arab farmers from their fields, though that is a problem. A farmer – whether he be Arab or Jewish – should not be separated from his lands. The problem with the wall is not that it is an ugly disfigurement on the land, though it is an ugly disfigurement that cuts through the mountains of Judea and Samaria like an ugly scar.
The problem with this wall is that it is an extension of ghetto Jew mentality to the one place where Jews should not feel the need to herd themselves into a ghetto – the Land of Israel.
I do not live behind this wall, as do so many others, and because of the way it has been built – like a border fence – I have been effectively kicked out of my homeland by a traitorous régime on Government Hill in Jerusalem.
Those of us who live in Samaria and Judea have been forced to gate ourselves in as if we were the intruders and interlopers in our own country.
This is wrong.
Arab terror must be dealt with in a way that no Arab will ever forget. Terrorists who are not killed in action must be sent home castrated. Their homes must be destroyed. Their families must be ejected from the villages they live in to other villages, where other Arab clans will view them as subject to all sorts of harassment – rape, robbery, murder – and the other Arabs in the village will look the other way.
The leaders of the “Palestine Liberation organization and all other Arab terror groups operarting as rebels on Jewish land must be hunted down and executed, and the “institutions” of the “Palestinian Authority” must be suppressed completely. The Oslo Accords must be declared null and void, and the United Nations, which acted illegally to partition this Land in 1947, must be expelled.
If this means war, then it means war; we have the nukes to destroy Damascus, Riyadh and Tehran, and we should not hesitate to do so. We have the planes capable of destroying the Aswan High Dam – this effectively flooding Egypt out of existence. If we are to fight a war, we should fight to win and terrorize the enemy into complete submission, and not cease from murdering him off until he comes on his hands and knees begging for peace.
That is how war is fought – and won. My son is supposed to go into the IDF soon. If he is to fight, he should fight to win, and win permanently, so that his military service should be of some value both to me and to his country.
By contrast, this wall is the response of the ghetto Jew afraid to properly demonstrate to the world that the Resolutions on Palestine of 24-25 April 1920 signed in San Remo – which grant sovereignty to the Jewish people to all of the Land of Israel in perpetuity – are the only valid documents in international law concerning this country.
None of us any longer need the self-defeating mentality of the ghetto Jew.
You’re absolutely right. Now if the Palestinians could only figure out how to build a wall to keep out Israelis that would be great, wouldn’t it?
In the US government forces people to build fences around swimming pools, then turns around and says fences on international borders don’t work. Go figure.
The UN is comparing this wall to the Berlin
Wall-If so what did the UN do about the
Berlin Wall?
Secondly a wall/fence is only one kind of
barrier to intrusion. Many regions have
religious, racial, military and ethnic walls.
Are these somehow more ethical than a physical
fence?
The real reason for outrage by the enemies of
Israel is that it makes terror acts more
difficult with less effort. There is a siege
war on Israel after all.
In the US government forces people to build fences around swimming pools, then turns around and says fences on international borders don’t work. Go figure.
What a brilliant observation. If it works on a swimming pool, well, by jove it will certainly work with a country with no agreed-upon border. If you people were in charge, our leaders would spend most of their day tying their shoe-laces.
I profoundly wish we — the US — would elect a President with enough guts to withdraw from the UN and evict that worthless organization from New York.
#8 Ruvy: I completely agree with you and enjoyed reading your post. My simplistic statement was meant to point out that instead of walling “in” Israel, Gaza should be walled off. Granted, rockets would surely fly over it’s walls but if even one suicide bomber was prevented from walking into the cities and towns of Israel, that would be a small victory.
I cannot even begin to understand what you’re faced with daily there but I can assure you that even though it seems that the American administration is not a friend of Israel at this time, there are millions of Americans that do stand with you now and will not waver in that.
Ruvy, deep in my heart I do agree with much of what you say, but not all. When one fights a war, one should fight to win, and certainly under Olmert this was not the case. But I wouldn’t endorse the extremes of your proposed solution. And to some extent you must also take into consideration the so-called international community, fraudulent as it may be; otherwise Israel might find itself in the same situation as at the time of the Suez War when it had complete victory within its grasp but was forced to pull back, thanks to Eisenhower’s inimical policy but also to the threat of Russian intervention. Israel must find a modus operandi midway between Olmert’s pusillanimity and your fierce recommendations, if it is not to invite disaster upon itself. Fight to win but not to ravage.
David Solway
I can assure you that even though it seems that the American administration is not a friend of Israel at this time, there are millions of Americans that do stand with you now and will not waver in that.
I understand this very well. If I didn’t understand this very well, I would not even post here; there would be no point. The truth is that the elements of your government which have been involved most with Israel – the State Department and the Defense Department, but most particularly the State Department – are hostile to the existence of a Jewish Entity in the Land of Israel. The actual behavior of your government behind the scenes – not where voters and contributors could see what was going on – has been proof of that.
This is not an issue of conservative versus liberal, Democrat versus Republican, nor an issue of right or wrong; it has been the calculated policy followed for 75 years or more, since the rise of Adolf Hitler in Germany.
This is not the forum for the argument over this issue. The point I wish to get across to you is that while Americans tend to be sympathetic to a Jewish Entity in the Land of Israel, for whatever reason, your government never has been and never will be.
This is why I supported Obama for your president last year. He is an honest enemy, and not a false friend, as was every president in the past except perhaps for Richard Nixon – who threatened the Russians with nuclear war in 1973, if they did not withdraw their threats against this country during the War of the Day of Judgment.
Obama has ripped the mask of false friendship from America’s policies and every single Israeli should be grateful for this. It is now as clear as a bell that while millions of individual Americans are our friends – your criminal régime is not.
As a nation, and as a people, we stand alone. We have allies and friends among those who believe in G-d, who believe in the Covenant He made with my ancestors in this Land, among those who even if they do not believe in any of these things, see the fundamental justice of Jews, persecuted for over two millennia, living in their own land, as do Englishmen or Danes.
But we stand alone, apart from mankind. It is our destiny, and it is something we cannot escape, no matter how hard we try. And believe me, Jews have been trying for the last century and a half to escape that destiny.
David,
But I wouldn’t endorse the extremes of your proposed solution….
One is forced to extremes in policy when cowards who are afraid to assert ownership over what is theirs have the keys to power.
The day that Moshe Dayan destroyed the bridges of the Jordan where thousands of Arabs huddled, seeking to leave Israel in June 1967, the day he forbade the building of a synagogue on the Temple Mount and handed control over it to the Waqf, was the day that the path towards seeking an extreme solution was set.
Cowardice and pulsillanity (sp?) has governed the policies of the State of Israel since then, and this cowardice, as well as the rejection of a miraculous victory in 1967 has brought us to the sad state where a Jew must actually consider genocide as an act of national defense and survival. This is truly tragic.
But, here we are. And we Jews in Israel, if we are to survive, must be willing to cast the terrible die in defiance of the world, knowing that we may not live.
I just spent an entire day on the border of Gaza, within spitting distance of the fence. To call it a ‘wall’ is to exaggerate to the nth degree. While it has materials that walls are made of, in actual height and other factors it functions more as a deterrence for infiltrators, yet hardly stops ANY missiles from exploding in Israeli cities, hence, over 8,000 were able to fly over the fence for over 7 ! yrs.
The issue is that without the ‘wall’ infiltrators would be sneaking in day and night, picking off Israelis as if they were quarry at turkey shoots.
When the ‘wall’ is described via the bleeding heart media as well as other assorted anti-zionists/anti-semites, ones imagination conjures up the Great Wall of China or the Berlin Wall. It is nothing of the sort.
Further, I witnessed stacks upon stacks of missile parts that exploded all over southern towns, notably S’derot, Kibbutz Alumim and other surrounding areas. I heard parents speak about losing children to rocket attacks that exploded in their faces as they walked home from school.
While the IDF waged a defensive operation(after waiting 7 years!) & even warns(crazy is as crazy does) ALL the residents to leave their homes before an operation in the area, the enemy TARGETS Israeli children.
In any case, if Israel’s leaders had any notion of exacting justice on behalf of their citizens, and any sense in their deluded heads, they would build a wall so high that nothing short of a flying donkey could get over it.
They have put together a defensive measure that is barely adequate yet the world wails. One can only assume that not enough Jews are getting killed with the wall in place, therefore, they wail.
Ruvy: I’m afraid you’re a bit misguided in your approach to Obama. Labeling him an “honest enemy” is the opposite of reality as he has proven himself to be anything but honest to the American citizens whom he is supposed to have the highest regard for. Polls are showing an increasing level of distrust even from members of his own party and voter base. Bush, on the other hand, garnered the most antagonism because of his sometimes infuriating idealism and the way he never wavered on what he believed to be the right path (whether it was favored by the public or not). If you considered Bush to be your enemy, at least he earned the title “honest” to go along with it. Love Bush or hate him, at least you knew where he stood on any given issue and was not swayed by public opinion or self preservation unlike Obama unfortunately.
You’d be closer to the truth with Obama to liken him to a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Oh, that explains why there are no dissenting opinions here: censorship
How typically evil of you..
*sigh*
To add insult to grievous injury, Olmert sent our sons into Gaza and stopped them short of attaining a final victory,(they can crow all they want that the IDF did what it intended to and reached their objectives, but this is nonsense.I spoke to members of the first platoon of paratroopers who entered the battle, battling the entire time. They were furious that they could not say ‘Mission Accomplished’) just as he did when he surrendered via ceasefire with Hizbullah in Resolution 1701.
While Operation Cast Lead blew up many buildings-after dropping leaflets so that NO Gazans inside got hurt-this did NOTHING to destroy their terror apparatus.Not only that, but as soon as the last platoon closed the gates behind them the terror groups were back in business.The Philadelphia Corridor Route smuggling apparatus back on line.
The troops were infinitely more prepared than in 2006, thereby their casualties were kept lower, and most operations were hit their mark. HOWEVER, the terror leaders were left unmolested, as our leaders refused to lob off their heads.
People ask what it will take to stop all this war. The answer really is quite logical and simple. When the enemy side realizes that the price they have to pay is too exorbitant then they will cease and desist. Not forever, but for a good long while.
On the other hand, our peace obsessed leaders think they can convince the enemy to stop attacking us if we offer them enough (suicidal) concessions, and we restrain ourselves, as they did for 7 long yrs when the missiles first started, but never stopped.The proof as they say is in the pudding…
The IDF has two overarching doctrines, restraint is strength, and limited conflict. It is these 2 paradigms that foster the insanity around us.
IF a leadership does NOT have victory as its primary goal, then they have essentially lost the battle, regardless of how many building they blow up in the process.
Gazing across the border today via the benefit of binoculars, the Gazans replaced many of their buildings (with funding from the Euros and every other aider and abettor) and are less concerned with home improvement projects, infinitely more concerned with stockpiling their tunnels with ever lethal weaponry.After all, they have bigger fish to fry – ALL of Israel.
The next war with Hamas, Hizbullah et al is around the corner. The only open question is – will Israel’s leaders have the political will and guts to smash them once and for all, or, are they just accumulating all their mega ton bombs for show and no tell?
21. Adina Kutnicki,Israel:
“IF a leadership does NOT have victory as its primary goal, then they have essentially lost the battle, regardless of how many building they blow up in the process.”
Very well said!
WELL TO ALL THE NYC LIBS WHO ARE CRITICIZING THE WALL: IF A MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY GIVES YOU SOME LAND [EVEN IF HE GIVES IT TO YOU 5000 YEARS AGO], I BET YOUR GOING TO BUILD A WALL TO PROTECT WHAT THAT MAGIC MAN GAVE YOU. NUFF SAID.
Was that sarcasm?
If not, it makes about as much sense as all the other arrogant, racist, delusional nonsense and lies being spewed on this worse-than-worthless site.
Illegally seizing land and waging a campaign of terrorism and ethnic cleansing against those who’ve inhabited that land for generations based on what a nonexistent god supposedly claimed in one of the most immoral books ever written by man is insane and evil, and a little wall won’t do anything but help further blind you from the truth.
Adina Kutnicki – would Netanyahu be as limp wristed as Olmert regarding killing terror leaders? He has a pretty dodgy record as PM from 1996-1999 in that area.
I’m afraid you’re a bit misguided in your approach to Obama. Labeling him an “honest enemy” is the opposite of reality as he has proven himself to be anything but honest to the American citizens whom he is supposed to have the highest regard for.
It all depends on where you sit, Thinking Person. Writing as an American who has to cope with the full incompetency of the “Blessed of Hussein”, you see the deceitfulness this common thief uses in shepherding his wolves into your hen-house for a meal on your wealth. And bit by bit, your “liberal” friends are waking up to the fact that all they have in office is a Chicago thief who talks pretty. If Obama had the propaganda machine Hitler did in Germany, he would be a lot more popular than he is. But he doesn’t, and where under Hitler, honest folks like you would be shot in the head, under Obama, you still get to opine openly. Be grateful for small favors and remember it’s still early days yet for Obama and his henchmen – though he is very aware how the clock is ticking towards the Christian New Year and the 2010 congressional campaign.
From where I’m sitting in Ma’alé Levoná, I get the full fusillade of the hatred of a man intent on destroying us, using the analyses of the ‘infantile left’ with the wileyness of Sol Alinsky. He has stripped away the layer of “friend” that the American government wore in public in dealing with the corrupt leaders whom they themselves corrupted and turned into traitors.
Examine Adina Kutnicki’s blistering (and spot on) attacks on Olmert and the leaders of the IDF. She is writing the Israeli equivalent of “it’s all Bush’s fault”.
But the same leader who blew “Operation Cast Lead”, Security Minister Barak, still holds the same portfolio today, and is still making Israel more insecure. Why? Barak was the protegé of Bill Clinton. You know him – the guy the Secretary of State used to sleep with when he wasn’t having wet dreams about young things with big hair. Barak is still the protegé and lap-dog of that end of the American governing élite that the Clintons hooked into.
He’s been bought and paid for, and like a good prostitute, he remains bought and paid for. Maybe it’s that multi-million dollar house he has in the suburbs of Tel Aviv that keeps him on the leash, but frankly I think there is a commonality of interest between this henchman ruining the IDF and his patrons in the States. The era of the Oslo Accords was very corrupting here.
Netanyahu was also bought and paid for; he is the creation of a different end of the American governing élite. Why do you think young Benny Nathan was sent back home to Israel from Philadelphia to sell furniture, and why do you think he suddenly emerged as a “security expert” from the depths of his furniture showroom? Benyamin Netanyahu – Benny Nathan – was bought and paid for, a talent that folks in the American governing élite spotted and fostered and groomed for power. And like any good prostitute, he remains bought and paid for.
It’s just that Obama was not the buyer, Netanyahu doesn’t wear his slave chain round the neck; so they don’t quite get on.
Mikey #24
You shouldn’t talk about the koran and allah like that!
The “wall”stays up.PLO suicide bombers practically stopped overnight.Palestinians dont exist.Those are Jordanian ancestors living there now.Abbas can forget about Obama saving his bacon.Obama has as much clout as a flyswatter when it comes to foreign affairs it seems.Cheney is correct, there is “political” blood in the water over national security issues.Just making my list here.Clinton talks the talk but can the Dems walk the walk?I seriously doubt it.Ive been unimpressed with liberalism and its laissez faire atitude or appeasement when it comes to our enemies.
Why do i oppose extremist forms of Islam?Heres why-
Respect others religious beliefs. Do not force your belief on others.
mikey who are you talking about? Jews, Arabs or Americans? lets base it on the here and now. fools blowing up your neighborhoods for what ever reason they feel is appropiate, doesn’t make me want to hold hands with them. so the best thing and most logical is to have a physical barrier. keeps us from killing ourselves and gives everyone a chance to enjoy your life. some poor farmer gets assed out because fools go and blow up someone elses neighborhood, and he gets mad at the people who most likely aren’t gonna come and blow his head off if he complains. sounds reasonable to me.
Crusader
Blame Bill Clinton on Bibi’s demise and defeat in 1999. Clinton channelled millions of dollars to Israel and meddled directly with their legal and electoral processes. He thought he could make peace between Arafat and Israel. Bibi would concede nothing. The new PM owed his win to Clinton and negotiated. We see today how well Clinton’s envisioned peace process worked.
Israel does not get support from other nations because of one word: “Settlements”. Israel’s failure to understand that is a great testament to their incredible ignorance. On this single subject matter, Israel is as stupid a nation, as they come.
As if Israel is the only country that feels cheated over property. Well get in line. Every country on the planet has, in their own mind, legitimate historical claims on parts of other countries. But because they have brains, they do not act on them. They know it’s a can of worms.
Still once in a while some idiot comes along and actually forgets this. And that usually results in wars that lasts 10 years and cause carnage beyond belief.
#24 Mikey – If you hate the site so much, why are you here?
And seriously, the Bible ranks up there with Mein Kampf or Das Kapital or Mao’s Little Red Book? Seriously? Exactly what problem do you have with: Thou shalt not murder, or steal, or perjure yourself, or commit adultery, or covet, etc…? Jesus’ overarching Commandment was to “Love one another.” How is that evil? Really, who taught you that the Bible is evil?
And ethnic cleansing? Really? If the Israelis had done such, there would be NO PALESTINIANS. They have the power to wipe them all out. But they don’t. Arabs in Israel are the freest Arabs in the world.
As for God giving them the land? Whether you believe in Him or not, the Jews have a written claim for this land that is thousands of years old. There were very few Arabs in the land when the Jews returned. Many more came, because the Jews brought prosperity to a desert. They followed the Jews thither. They were not displaced by the Jews. Then, they stabbed the Jews in the back, in their gratitude for the prosperity. The Jews should never have allowed the Arabs in, even to do the scut work.
The wall orginally was the brainchild of the left wing, Barak, while in power. This came after their plan to negotiate a “peace settlement” with Arafat blew up in their faces when he launched his long planned wave of terror. The security forces were having great problems in coping with the multitude of explosions and deaths, so trying to appear relevant and save their political skins, they came up with the idea of a wall to “separate” lives of Israelis and Arabs over there and add security. The right wing, Sharon, ridiculed it as a joke because security experts said it would do nothing to impede the terror and was incredibly expensive. What happened was the populace embraced the idea, anything was better than nothing, with all the bombs going off, and the politicians had to act. Ironically it was the Sharon government who started the building. As things have turned out, it literally snuffed out the terrorist wave. A guy just can’t strap on a suicide vest, walk across a few fields at night, take a bus to Tel Aviv and kill 30 people. Vehicles loaded with bombs can’t meander through cowpaths into downtown Jerusalem and kill their 30 people. No one in Israel is going to listen to the caterwauling of foreigners to jeopardize their security and put their lives at rest. As for the International Court of “Justice,” that’s a European court not recognized by Israel. But for a thousand of years now the European concept of justice has been if a Jew has two hands tied behind his back and his assailant is armed with a knife, that’s fair and just. It’s just more of the same from them. .
As for the settlements, Article 80 of the UN Charter authorizes Jews to settle anywhere in mandated Palestine. This was the ratification of the League of Nation’s adoption of the Balfour Declaration as international law. When Ban joins Obama and the Europeans in saying the settlements are illegal, he doesn’t even know what’s in the constitution of his own organization. The law the Arabs are quoting, seconded by Obama, is the old Jordanian law that requires Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem to be “judenrein.” But Jordan hasn’t occupied that territory since 1967 so why should their law apply?
Ruvy, all your posts are also spot on.
I especially agree with you about Barak and Bibi, both being bought and paid for. Barak was the MOST decorated warrior in IDF history.Yet, when he became PM the first time around, all the while daydreaming of Clinton, he infamously stated, that if he were a PA terrorist he might very well adopt their tactics.Hmmm.He never said such treacherous words while he was battling the enemy to the death, but suddenly he is snugly with the Clinton crew….
Now, color me crazy, but is he NOT promoting terror, is he NOT identifying with our tormentors, perhaps some Stockholm Syndrome is guiding him?
The thing is that when our military leaders become immersed-almost like prostitutes-with our political system they invariably become incompetent fools.
Is it any coincidence that following their heroic service they suddenly turn up rich? Perhaps, just perhaps they get bought and paid for by elements that do NOT wish us well? In Washington politicians upon retirement often become prostitutes for foreign nations, operating as their paid lobbyists. Saudi Arabia anyone? Same thing happens in Israel, not in the direction of Saudi Arabia, but Washington & the EU come to mind.
As for Bibi, I believe he will ultimately be as limp wristed as he was during the Wye capitulation. He talks tough, but…. I dearly hope I am wrong, very wrong.Personally, what is quite rankling is that he is an alumni of the same school as my son, MIT. The educational difference is that Bibi was honing his skills at the Sloane School while my son was studying hard core science. In any case, upon graduation in 2007 my son fulfilled his lifelong dream and moved to Israel. I suspect he is more of a true zionist than the PM of Israel. This indeed is a very frightening prospect.
So, Ruvy, you’re a settler?
I assume it’s your deeply held belief that Judea and Samaria (a.k.a. West Bank) is land given by God to the Jews. Do you believe this land should be annexed by Israel? If so, what would you do with the over 2 million Arabs who live there? If the land were Israeli, would the Arabs, many whom hate Israel, become citizens? Or would you simply expell them all? Would you advocate an Arabrein Samaria and Jueda?
The ideal solution would be that Arabs and Jews peacefully cohabitate in all of what has ben referred to as historic Palestine (land west of the Jordan). But history has proved that solution to be impossible. There are now 6 million Jews and about 4 million Arabs, who mostly will not mix, within historic Palestine. Even before WWII it was patently clear the two groups would be ungovernable under one state, hence the two-state solution. The Yishuv ACCEPTED this partition, and the state of Israel was born. It was the Arabs who rejected it, and waged war against the Jews.
But now it seems you, too, reject this historic compromise. Your claim the land to be rightfully yours, and prefer to contemplate mass Arab expulsion or genocide before surrendering Samaria and Judea. Funny, that’s exactly what the Palestinians believe as well. What makes you any different? That God is on your side? Do you not believe the Palestinians hold the same belief?
I agree with you in one respect: so long as there are Arabs and Jews who fervently hold on to the notion that ALL historic Palestine is theirs, the only way to reach peace will be the complete anhiliation of one group or the other.
Other than mass genocide/expulsion, the two-state solution is the only way to long-term peace.
I do believe Jews should be allowed to settle in what they consider their God-given homeland. But if they choose to live in the West Bank, it’ll have to be under Palestinian governance.
Would Palestinians EVER accept Israel? Would you EVER accept a Palestinian state in Samaria and Judea? The current Palestinian intransigence is an obstacle to peace. So is yours.
Vis a vis Chileno: “But why not simply follow the Green Line?”
Because “the Green Line” is not a border or any kind of limit to Israel’s sovereignty. “The Green Line” is the line of demarcation where the Arab nations that tried to wipe out Israel in 1948 and 1949 were stopped by Israeli blood. No Arab nation or people or tribe or sect ever recognized “the Green Line” as Israel’s sovereign border. Only after Israel succeeded once more, in 1967, in defeating the Arab nations and peoples attempting to destroy Israel and took over more land than it had previously encompassed, did Arafat the Rotting’s minions and other would be destroyers of Israel begin discussing “The Green Line” as some kind of border for Israel.
As Israels’ Gaza experiment has proven beyond doubt, the only border Israel can safely accede is that where the “other side” guarantees the security of that border.
There is no “Green Line.”
When you have this:
Israel using Hitler photo to counter criticism
Allyn Fisher-Ilan, Reuters Published: Thursday, July 23, 2009
Israel has ordered its diplomats to use an old photograph of a former Palestinian religious leader meeting Adolf Hitler to counter world criticism of a Jewish building plan for East Jerusalem.
Israeli officials said yesterday Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman told Israeli ambassadors to circulate the 1941 shot in Berlin of the Nazi leader seated next to Haj Amin al-Husseini, the late mufti or top Muslim religious leader in Jerusalem.
One official said Mr. Lieberman, an ultranationalist, hoped the photo would “embarrass” Western countries into ceasing to demand that Israel halt the project on land owned by the mufti’s family in a predominantly Arab neighbourhood in East Jerusalem.
However, some diplomats opposed Mr. Lieberman’s move, arguing it could earn Israel stiffer world criticism for seeming to sidestep the wider conflict it faces with the Palestinians who want East Jerusalem as capital of a future state.
An official in Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s government accused Mr. Lieberman of “political bankruptcy” in ordering the distribution of the Husseini-Hitler photograph.
“It’s an old story that has its own circumstances and doesn’t apply to the present,” said Adnan al-Husseini, the Palestinian Authority-appointed Governor of Jerusalem, and a relative of the late mufti.
Asked why Mr. Lieberman issued the order, a spokesman said, “because it’s important for the world to know the facts” and would not elaborate.
Israel captured East Jerusalem in 1967, annexing it as part of its internationally unrecognized claim to Jerusalem as its capital.
The United States and Europe this week protested the plan by private Israeli developers to build 20 apartments on the land which Israel says was bought by an U. S.-Jewish millionaire as well as Israel’s threats to demolish Palestinian homes that could leave thousands homeless.
The controversy has complicated an Israeli rift with the United States over its refusal to meet President Barack Obama’s demands to halt Jewish settlement building throughout the West Bank so that stalled peace talks may resume.
About half a million Israelis live in the settlements built in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, areas that are home to some three million Palestinians.
Israel’s Yad Vashem memorial to the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust said Husseini supported Nazi Germany to try to win backing for Arab nationalistic goals and that he lobbied for the extermination of Jews in North Africa and Palestine.
It goes a very long way to communicate the need for the wall.
PS – Yassir Arafat, which was his nome de guerre, was a nephew of that Mufti.
@ #36
You are correct, that the Green Line was essentially the armistice line, ending the 1948 War of Independence. And I agree this line was acheived through Jewish blood and sacrifice against multiple hostile Arab armies. But for a lack of any other border, it has become the de facto border for Israeli territory, the only one intrenationally recognized as such.
If Israel is ever to accomplish peace, some line will have to be established as a border. If not the Green Line, which line would you use? The 1947 UN Partition plan gave even LESS land to the Yishuv. Would you have Israel keep Judea and Samaraia? What would you do with the 2 million Arabs living therein? Even the two-state solution whereby Israel keeps large settlement blocs in the West Bank in return for an equivalent portion of land from within Israel proper all assume a equal trade off based on “the Green Line.”
Israel has a right to defend itself. But I question its right to expand its sovereignty into land most do not recognize as rightfully theirs to keep.
The United Nations started off as a admirable enterprise. It has, sadly, morphed into a clubhouse for the worlds thugs, kleptomaniacs, corrupt despots, tinpot dictators, misogynists, homophobes, anti-semites, and assorted detritus..
It is a pustule situated on a lvoely piece of property in Manhattan that would be better served if converted into high-end condominiums.
‘Outrage’ over this or that latest pronouncement from this polyglot relic, reminiscent of the bar scene from Star Wars is silly.
Give the land back to the turtles.
Chileno,
But now it seems you, too, reject this historic compromise. Your claim the land to be rightfully yours, and prefer to contemplate mass Arab expulsion or genocide before surrendering Samaria and Judea. Funny, that’s exactly what the Palestinians believe as well. What makes you any different? That God is on your side? Do you not believe the Palestinians hold the same belief?
Looking at all of this as a two sided conflict is delusory, and will yield delusory solutions – like the so-called “two-state” solution. This is a multi-sided conflict with numerous stake-holders, some legitimate, and some fake.
Let’s separate out the fakes from the real stake-holders.
1. The United States, EU, Russia, UN and all interfering foreign imperialists have NO stake in the future of the Land of Israel. Put simply, they have no business here and should get out – before soldiers from their countries go home in body bags.
2. The thieves and appeasers in the “Israeli” government have NO stake in the future of this country. The only thing they have coming to them is the hangman’s rope for treason, or long prison sentences for theft. Their day of justice will come.
3. Arab terrorists, no matter what their ideology pretends to be, have NO stake in the future of this land. All that is rightfully coming to them is the hangman’s noose for rebelling against the only legitmate authority in the Land of Israel, the government of the people of Israel – minus the Jewish thieves, appeasers and traitors.
Now let’s look at two groups who think they have a stake, have an argument to claim so, and do not.
1. The Vatican – wants to present the next Bishop of Rome – according to a St. Malachy, the last Bishop of Rome – from a chapel in Jerusalem on Mount Zion. They wish to be able to say “from Zion comes the law” – their law. The idea that the Shield of Solomon (the proper name for the Star of David) flies over Jerusalem sticks in their throats like a craw, and they would do anything to get rid of that flag.
2. The Islamic Republic of Iran, the latest and nastiest incarnation of the Persian Empire, wants to present the Shi’a Mahdi (the Moslem version of the messiah) from the Temple Mount as the ruler of the world. Ahmadinejad has been playing messianic politics with a Moslem accent, and nobody but nobody seems to be able to understand this or even respect what he is doing.
This is a Jewish land, and other religions can play out their religous dramas, whatever they are ELSEWHERE.
So who does that leave as legitimate stake-holders? Who has any claim to this land?
1. The Jews who live here, and any Jew world-wide. Our rights stem from the Resolutions on Palestine adopted on 24-25 April 1920 in San Remo Italy, which grants the Jewish People sovereignty in perpetuity over the Land of Israel – and from our own right of conquest – based on the 1967 war.
2. The Arabs who live here, who are willing to live in peace with us Jews.
You do not know what the Arabs will do if all of Gaza, Judea and Samaria is annexed to Israel, ansd if the Arab terrorists who presently “rule” in Ramallah, Jenin, Qalqiliya and Gaza are killed off – either by Arabs sick of their terror – or by us. Rebels and murderers do not have the right to live.
There is nothing wrong with establishing two, three or even four autonomous Arab districts within the Land of Israel where Arabs govern over all aspects of life except security, foreign affairs and water. If not incited to violence and hate, Arabs can live in peace with us, and we with them. This country is one economic unit and if relieved of the burden of what is essentially a communal conflict with outsiders interfering, a good life can be had by all.
There are details to work out, but it really is all that simple – if my Arab neighbors down the hill in Sinjel are willing to live in peace with me and my neighbors.
@ Ruvy #40
Can you not see the contradictions in your own post?
You claim that “looking at all of this as a two sided conflict is delusory,” and then proceed to whittle down the multiple parties involved to only TWO real players: Jews and local Arabs. Two parties = two sides? The fact is that no matter how much foreign powers try to intervene, lasting peace cannot come from without, only from within. If these two parties do not come to terms, it won’t matter a whit what other multifaceted groups say. It’s still a two-sided conflict, involving the only two parties you yourself admit are important.
You state that “all interfering foreign imperialists… have no business here and should get out,” and then turn around to claim that the legitimacy to your cause stems from the 1920 San Remo Resolution…. signed by interfering foreign imperialists. The fact is you need foreign recognition of your State to establish international legitimacy. You could go it alone, and flaunt the international community, but then you risk becoming a pariah state like Iran or Burma. And foreign powers only recognize Israel as the land west of the Green Line. An agreement could be reached with the Palestinians to swap land, so that Israel could annex some of the large settlement blocs near Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, but again, this would require foreign recognition to be considered legitimate. What is clear is that no power will recognize the outright annexation of all of Judea and Samaria.
You repeatedly mention the San Remo Resolution, yet fail to note that its text specifically states that the resolution “”would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine.” It’s hard to claim Arab rights are being respected when their land is taken from them. As reported in Haaretz earlier this year: “in more than 30 settlements, extensive construction of buildings and infrastructure (roads, schools, synagogues, yeshivas and even police stations) has been carried out on private lands belonging to Palestinian West Bank residents” (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html )
In terms of the Vatican, I don’t know where you get your notion that for some reason the Vatican has a political interest in Israel. The prophecy of St. Malachy does state that after Benedict XVI there will be one last Pope, “Petrus Romanus,” but nowhere does it say he must come from Zion. I am Catholic, and find it offensive you’d believe the Vatican sees the Star of David as a “craw” in its throat. Catholics and Jews have never been so close in their relations as they are now. John Paul II went so far as to call Jews “our elder brothers.” Besides, we have no need for a new Pope to come from Zion. Jesus, our lord and savior, came from Zion, and delegated his powers on earth to Peter, who moved the seat of Catholic Christendom to Rome.
You say “you do not know what the Arabs will do if all of Gaza, Judea and Samaria is annexed to Israel.” With most Palestinians expressing hate for Israel, it’s hard not to have a good idea. Even Arab Israelis usually do not mix with Jews. Do you really want to absorb 4 million Arabs into Israel? Given their higher birth rate, you know Arabs could soon outnumber Jews. What then? Would you give up the Jewishness of Israel -or lose the notion of Israel as a democratic state, and rule as a minority? Absorbing these people is political suicide for Israel.
You are gracious in allowing Arabs establish autonomous cantons within Israel. The only problem is they don’t want “autonomous cantons.” They want nothing to do with Israel.
You say Arabs can stay if they opt to live in peace. And what if they don’t want to live in peace? You imply that they must leave. But from Jordanians not allowing prayers at the Western Wall from ’48-’67, to the destruction of the compound at Joseph’s Tomb, to the destruction of Israeli greenhouses left behind in Gaza, it’s patently obvious they will not cohabitate peacefully with Jews, and you know that very well. So your hidden message is they should leave en masse.
You have very firm beliefs regarding the land. Your brethren came to Israel, bought overpriced marshlands and tilled it until it bloomed. They fought and gave their blood to defend what had been rightfully granted to them by the UN. But the Arabs who live on the land, particularly on the West Bank, also have a rightful claim to it. They do not want to share, and will fight equally hard to stay there.
What will your children inherit? An unending fight over land few -even in Israel- consider to be yours, or will you make a hard sacrifice so that they may one day have peace? Of course, the Palestinians must make the same choice. But how do you expect them to compromise their dreams of a homeland, if you won’t compromise in yours?
You state that “all interfering foreign imperialists… have no business here and should get out,” and then turn around to claim that the legitimacy to your cause stems from the 1920 San Remo Resolution…. signed by interfering foreign imperialists. The fact is you need foreign recognition of your State to establish international legitimacy.
We do not need foreign recognition – we already have it. But the reason I use this method – the law of the jungle known as “international law” – is to avoid arguing on the actual grounds that are the real framework – the Land Covenant in the Torah. “International law” cited is the appropriate pagan version of law so that non-Jews canunderstand clearly that even by their own rules of dog-eat-dog in the jungle that they call “legitimacy”, we Jews have full sovereignty over this Land – that you non-Jews have granted us.
You repeatedly mention the San Remo Resolution, yet fail to note that its text specifically states that the resolution “would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine.”
When you take the trouble to actually look at the intent of the resolution, you find out that this phrase, written in the French translation (it was the French who insisted on its presence and on this phrasing) dealt with religious communities – the nunneries and retreats established by the French Catholics in the Land. This paragraph had nothing to do with Arabs at all. The Arabs, were to receive civil – but not political – rights. The Land was granted in entirety to the Jewish People, and the British were to nurse the “Jewish National Home”, a Jewish State. That was the Mandate. The Arabs had several states-on-the-way themselves – Mesoptamia, Syria, Lebanon – also Mandated.
The British, charged with this task, found that they did not want a Jewish State – they wanted an Arab State. So they perverted the terms of the Mandate they had received – just the way you write it above – and restricted the sale of land to Jews, cut out 77% ot its territory as a reserve “temporarily” for the Arabs alone (this became Jordan), and did whatever they could to impede Jewish settlement in the country. They promoted the interests of a Gazan with ties to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, Amir Husseini, inflating him like a blowfish to be “grand mufti” for Jerusalem. When this man repeated incited Arabs to riot against Jews, they did nothing to him.
While the British carefully regulated the in-migration of Jews to the Mandate, they ignored the in-migration of Arabs from Mesopotamia and Syria – and then, seeing that a real killer of the Jews had arisen in Europe who intended to ship Jews to their Mandate first – and kill them later – banned Jews from coming home just when they needed to most.
John Bull did not build the Nazi death camps in Poland and Germany, but did manage to lock Jews in to them so they had no other fate. And as pointed out elsewhere, the RAF (nor the USAAF) never once bombed the tracks leading to a concentration camp, or the rail entrances to a concentration camp, or a gas chamber.
The indictment against the British as un-named co-conspirators in the murder of six million Jews cannot be more clear.
As for the Arabs, Amin el-Husseini eventually fled the Mandate and ran to aid Britain’s enemy, and when he realized what the Nazi plan for Jews was – expulsion and concentration in the Land of Israel – where they were to be muredered once the Nazis conquered the country – he lobbied for the slave labor camps being constructed to be death camps to kill Jews in Europe. A more gruesome version of “not in my back yard” cannot be imagined by some petty suburbanite holding his nose at some project he does not like and wishes to keep out. So, we Jews owe the Arabs living here nothing. Their own leaders plotted to see us die in death camps, and continue to plot our murder today, so if they are driven out of this country as a consequence, it is coming to them. At least we do not burn them in death camps or massacre them en masse.
Now to get to the point. As it stands, Arab kids are taught to hate Jews and to kill them. If that is indeed their desire, they should leave OUR land – before we kill them. Because at some point, the patience and self restraint we have shown in sparing their lives and livelihoods will come to an end. On the other hand, if they and their parents are willing to put aside the lies of terrorists like the el-Husseinis, there is no reason they cannot live in peace with us.
The present regime of thieves, traitors and appeasers ruling on Government Hill in Jerusalem will be brought down of their own incompetence and corruption. And the Jewish regime that follows will reject the suicidal garbage of Oslo and other “peace” plans that foreign imperialists sweek to impose, and will follow ideas similar to the ones I’ve outlined simply because they allow for a peaceful and prosperous co-existence of Arabs and Jews under Israeli sovereign control.
If the Arabs reject these plans for peace and go to war – which is what I expect to see – there will be a terrible bloodbath in this country, a bloodbath that they themselves will begin – and the Arabs will flee here, never to return.
As for what I’ve written about the Vatican, if it offends you, then perhaps you can explain the bullying efforts of the Vatican to control as much of Mount Zion in the Old City of Jerusalem as they can get their hands on – pushing out the synagogue and yeshiva that abut the Dormition Abbey there. Perhaps you can explain the insistence of the Bishop of Rome that all symbols of Jewish sovereignty be removed from his presence when he visits this country. Why all this scheming to get rid of Jewish sovereignty over Jerusalem?
By the way, Chileno, to make my point clear about the murderous intent of the el-Husseinis, read this article about “no recognition of Israel – ever” found in Arutz Sheva. El-FataH was founded by the prize student (and possibly nephew) of Amir el-Husseini, Yassir Arafat, and by MaHmoud Abbas. A couple of notes about el-Husseini and nicknames. El-Husseini bestowed the nickname “Abu Amar” upon Hitler in the 1940′s when he arrived in Berlin. When Arafat finally did come out of el-Husseini’s shadow, he himself took this nickname or (nom de guerre) that the elder el-Husseini bestwed upon Hilter – a signal that he would complete Hitler’s unfinished task of exterminating Jews.
This can be found in textbooks and on-line – but I learned it from an old Austrian tailor in Jerusalem who upon the “Anshcluss” with Germany in 1938, was seized by the SS and given a one way ticket here – to what was then Mandate Palestine.
Just a side question, one that has nothing to do with this topic, if I might: does the moniker “Chileno” properly come with a tilde over the “n”? I study linguistics and it struck me that the tilde was missing from your moniker.
Israel should take Hizbollah to the ICJ for not allowing Israel to build it’s fence on the blue line but rather well into Israeli territory. It should also file for all the other walls being built.
Ruvy:
“We do not need foreign recognition – we already have it.” You do not have foreign recognition of sovereignty over Samaria and Judea – and likely never will. You can go back to 1920, but in any case, that declaration would have been superseded by the 1947 UN Partition Plan which the Yishuv agreed to. Foreign recognition ends at the Green Line.
I respect your belief in the Land Covenant, but it won’t fly in terms of international recognition. Like I said, you can say “the hell with international recognition,” but that will only turn Israel into a pariah state. How long would Israel last, with no friends on the outside, surrounded by millions of Arabs bent on its destruction? You are willing to fight for your land, which is fine. But are you willing to sacrifice your children as well? The Arabs already see Israel as a modern version of the Crusades, do you wish to meet the same fate?
“Arabs, were to receive civil – but not political – rights.” Really? So you are fine with the idea that 4 million plus Arabs have no political rights? What happens when they become 6-7 million, and outnumber Jews? Arabs are criticized for not giving Jews their rights in other nations, yet you wish to do the same to them in Israel.
You don’t need to tell me about the Mufti or all the other hateful Arabs bent on destroying Israel. That’s precisely why annexing Samaria and Judea -at least with the present Arab population- is suicidal. You know this would lead to a “terrible bloodbath,” but it seems that’s a price you’re willing to pay. You are willing to expel or kill any Arabs who do not submit to your rules of sovereignty. Again, you sound like the Palestinians down the road, hell bent on destroying your settlement, or the Jordanians who expelled the few Jews still living in the West Bank after the ’48 war.
Jews have a right to a homeland -and they have it, within Israel proper, with Jerusalem as its capital.
In terms of the Vatican, I did some research and quickly found your article on BC Politics (http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/israeli-government-sinks-into-the-sewer/page-2/) How terribly wrong and misguided you are in terms of the Catholic Church. It’s shameful you would compare the Pope to the Iranian madman who threatens Israel with nuclear holocaust. Just to clear up a few things: According to Wikipedia (quickest source I could find), ” Ratzinger was conscripted in the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939, but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith, according to biographer John L. Allen, Jr. In 1941, one of Ratzinger’s cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was taken away by the Nazi regime to a care center and killed…”
You fail to credit our previous Pope, John Paul II, for all he did to strengthen the ties between Judaism and Catholicism. Catholics are no longer called to proselytize Jews, as it is considered a sister religion, adoring the same God. Many Catholic theologians argue that salvation can be found in Judaism, as God does not break his promises (hence, the Old Covenant is still valid). John Paul II specifically spoke about the sin of Anti-Semitism, the tragedy of the Holocaust, and the failings of Christians in both of these, in his writ: “We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah” From the Jewish Virtual Library: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/poperep.html
Here’s an article by Rabbi David Rosen on John Paul II and his advancement of Judeo-Catholic relations: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2005/04/The-Legacy-Of-Pope-John-Paul-II-For-Catholic-Jewish-Relations.aspx?p=1
Benedict XVI is not John Paul II, but in general he does follow the footsteps of his predecessor. The Pope may not always work “in favor” of Israel, because, after all, his first priority is Catholicism and all Catholics. When he comes to such a politically charged place as Israel, he must be careful what he does or says, or Catholics around the world (particularly those living in Muslim countries) can suffer. The mere hint of accusing Islam of being a violent religion in 2006 unleashed a wave of violence (ironically, proving the point) that caused much harm to Catholics, including the death of a nun working in Somalia.
Insofar as the Dormition Abbey, your speculations are more akin to hare-brained conspiracy theories. Of course the Vatican is interested in the property next to the Dormition Abbey, it holds the room were JESUS HELD THE LAST SUPPER. Do you NOT think the Vatican would be interested in this site, one of the most holy of all of Christendom??? The Dormition itself is believed to hold the last place on Earth where the Virgin Mary fell asleep (hence the name). There’s no need to conjure up far-fetched notions that this means the Pope has secret plans, or that he hates Israel and wants to see it destroyed. We appreciate what we consider OUR Holy Sites just as much as you appreciate yours. If you are annoyed that a yeshiva is being pushed out, that’s your business. If your government approves the transfer of land, you’ll have to take up within your own legal system.
BTW, the Vatican does not recognize East Jerusalem as Israeli territory, as neither do MOST nations. So why bring that up? Also, many of the Holy Roman Emperors and other kings (like Napoleon) traveled to Rome to be crowned. No need to go to the Holy Lands.
To sum it up, I am a firm supporter of Israel vis a vis the Arab aggressors who plot its destruction. A good friend of mine (almost like a brother) recently made aliyah, and lives in the outskirts of Tel Aviv. But I don’t think you’ll get away with keeping the West Bank, not without committing the heinous act of genocide. I know Christians in general have, over the centuries, mistreated the Jews. But it’s surprising and hurtful to see my Catholic Church, which has made great efforts to bridge the gap between us, be viciously attacked, especially with such frivolous accusations. We may have our differences, but for the most part, we are very closely tied, worshipping the same God.
Finally, “does the moniker “Chileno” properly come with a tilde over the “n”?” No. I was born in Chile, so I am Chilean. In Spanish, you say “Chileno,” hence my moniker.
Chileno,
I see you never got to that article “no recognition of Israel – ever”. That refusal to recognize any Jewish sovereignty here guarantees war, no matter how much the treasonous judenrat in Jerusalem attempts to appease the Arabs to gain peace.
That is the simple reason why ALL the terrorists must be killed, and why there can be NO peace before all the terrorists are killed. When I say ALL, I mean Hamas, el-FataH, HizbAllah, everybody. That will require a bloodbath.
And now I’m giving you a hint as to what the future holds – for I see this nightmare coming as I would a bus up the hill to Ma’alé Levoná.
The Israeli government does not have the cojones to do what is necessary to secure law and order in Judea and Samaria, or indeed even the rest of the country. And it will continue an illegal campaign of expulsions of Jews, a campaign that will cause the breakdown of the educational system here, as kids and parents refuse to go to school or work to defend their homes against what will increasingly be seen as an army of government thugs.
The three main Arab groups, el-FataH, HizbAllah and Hamas will smell blood and will not be able to restrain their bloodlust.
The Arabs will start a massive missile bombardment of this country from South Lebanon and Gaza. They may or may not use nuclear weapons, but if the Persians have dirty bombs, they will use them sent on missiles from Persia, to destroy Tel Aviv and its suburbs.
Thousands of Jews will die.
But the side effect of all this is that Jews still surviving on the coast will feel their government has betrayed them, has played them for suckers. And indeed it will have. These Jews will get in whatever vehicles they are able to and drive east and north, killing every single Arab they see. THEY will go on a pogrom and the land will run with blood – Arab blood. Haredim in Bet Shemesh and Jerusalem will join them and Arabs will be killed or they will flee east, panicking as they do, running for their lives and getting no mercy from any Jew.
That is what the policy of appeasement of Arabs followed since 1992 will get us.
Who will die and who will live is not for me to say, but do not delude yourself. What the “world” thinks will not count for anything. What we do will count for everything. This will be the lesson that will finally sink in when the Arabs start their next war.
And we will finish them off.
“I see you never got to that article ‘no recognition of Israel -ever.’ ” Actually, I did. I knew about Fatah excluding itself from the PA recognition of Israel, that’s why I said you didn’t have to tell me about those “hateful Arabs bent on destroying Israel,” I already knew. Yet you yourself say that “You do not know what the Arabs will do if all of Gaza, Judea and Samaria is annexed to Israel.” and now turn around and say war is “guaranteed”? War is a very real possibility, as I myself have said, and I would certainly place the onus for a peaceful solution on the Palestinians. But war is not inevitable. Many of the Arab nations are seemingly growing weary of this conflict. However flawed, the Saudi peace plan would -for the first time- open the door to recognizing Israel and normalizing relations. It’s not a perfect plan, but it’s a start. And it IS important to get Muslim nations to accede to a peace plan: it’s foreign money that supports the terrorists. You strangle their finances and they will wither away. Of course, that would mean dealing with Iran. That’s why I support strangling Iran financially and pushing for regime change: it would dry up most of Hezbollah’s and Hamas’ funding.
And now I ask you: Did you ever read the links I sent about the Pope? You seem to have skirted the entire Vatican issue.
“The Arabs will start a massive missile bombardment of this country from South Lebanon and Gaza.” They already tried that, and however clumsily, the IDF has mostly silenced them. If they try it again, I’m sure the IDF will meet them in battle.
Your apocalyptic vision of the future -with the mass slaughter of Arab “terrorists” until the land is free of them- has one major flaw: do you really think the Muslim nations of the world will sit idle while all this happens? Muslim armies are no longer the rag-tag group the IDF met in battle in ’67. Besides, it would be the perfect excuse for Iran to nuke Israel. Do you really believe your nuclear arsenal is a deterrent against Ahmadinejad?? Consider this: Israel lobs multiple nukes at Iran, and, however damaged, Iran will survive. Iran lobs four or five nukes at Israel: at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, and the northern Galilee, and ALL of historic Palestine will be rendered radioactive. Sure, lots of Arabs would die as well. But in the crazed eyes of the suicidal Persian, that’s a small price to pay in order to rid the Middle East of the Jews. Jerusalem radioactive? I’m sure they’d think, better radioactive than Jewish. This is yet another reason to either destroy the Iranian nuclear facilities now, or continue to push for regime change.
I wish you and the State of Israel well, really. I’m usually the one defending Israel -this is the first time I’ve found myself arguing in favor of Palestinian rights! But I fear as you prepare for Armageddon, you are digging your own grave. Is the land worth all of this? The God I worship has promised me things much greater than a mere piece of land here on Earth. And he didn’t call me to slaughter those who don’t agree with me.
It’s been instructive speaking with you, Ruvy. I wish you the best of luck, as I fear, you will need it.
I’ll leave you with two quotes from Moshe Bellinson you may find interesting:
When in 1936 he was asked “how long” would the Jews have to fight, he replied: ““Until the most fervent warrior in the enemy camp realizes that there is no means by which to break Israel’s power in its land, because it has necessity and living truth on its side. Until they know that there is no other way but to make peace with Israel. This is the purpose of our struggle.”
But at the same time, he also said “The flag of our movement must not be tarnished. Neither by the blood of the innocent, nor by the blood of the guilty. Otherwise – our movement will be bad, because blood draws other bloods. Blood always takes revenge and if you walk down this path once, you do not know where it would lead you. “
Chileno,
Frankly, I only concentrated on one aspect of your post, as it was the only one worth concentrating on.
It seems that we agree on nuking Tehran and other centers that would be the command and control for a nuclear Iran, mostly for the same reasons. I wrote an article on ths topic also at Blogcritics Magazine.
The actions of the Bishop of Rome will be swept into irrelevance by other events here. But since you insist on duking it out on this topic, let’s look at the evidence. Before we do, let me note that it is not my business to tell you how your religion should or should not work, or what your beliefs should or should not be.
In March 2000, then Bishop of Rome, Karol Wojtyla, visited this country. His flunkies at the Vatican, of whom Joseph Ratzinger was one, insisted on a number of things, things which the Israeli leaders were stupid enough to agree to.
All of them were to one end – a denial of Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel. Let’s look at the main one. Signs of Israeli sovereignty were to be absent or downplayed wherever the Bishop of Rome traveled. So much so that even the Magen David Adom ambulances following the old man to make sure he did not fall sick had to have the Shield of Solomon painted over, so as not to offend the flunkies in the Vatican (I don’t think Wojtyla could have cared less – he was a giant of a man, unlike the pygmy who has followed him).
Now, Chileno, if I hankered to visit your home but refused to do so unless you took your name off the door, what would be your impression? Would I be there for a sociable visit, or would I be there to lay claim your property?
Why has the Vatican always pushed a “solution” to “peace” that specified that Jews not run Jerusalem? Go ahead, look it up. The main point in all of the Vatican’s alleged “solutions for peace” here all include depriving us Jews of control of the City of David – the city OUR KING conquered.
Finally, the reason for the Vatican’s behavior is to be found here, at Joel Bainerman’s article “The Vatican Agenda”. I’d believe Bainerman more than any article at Wikipedia. I know him, and I know his scholarship.
What business does the Vatican have controlling ANYTHING on OUR land? This is a Jewish country, and Christians and all other foreigners are here on our sufferance. If we allow you to own or control anything, it is an act of generosity, not an act of obeisance to you. Catholic prelates – the same kind of people who told Jews in Europe seeking to save innocent children from the claws of the Nazis – “there is no innocent Jewish blood” (look up the quote in the book, “Cracking the Bible Code”, by Satinover) deserve NO say in the way this land functions; they are lucky that we do not confiscate all that is theirs as a a small down payment for their vicious treatment of us over 17 centuries.
Catholics and Jews have never been so close in their relations as they are now. John Paul II went so far as to call Jews “our elder brothers.”
What you describe is the pandering of mendacious rabbis and Israeli pliticians (like Shim’on Peres) for “favor” at the court of the “Big Gentile”. It’s all a lot of hot air, barely fit to fly a balloon.
An “I’m sorry”, no matter how eloquent, just does not cut it. Liquidating 15% of the Vatican’s assets and turning the funds over to us might begin to. Eliminating prayers for the conversion of the Jews could be an added sweetener – in addition to the money – not in place of it. Acknowledging publicly and permanently that we are the sole and rightful owners of all of Jerusalem would really help. But “ecumenical dialogue” with the “universal church” is a waste of time.
The Vatican will do none of these things. Their arrogance will prevent them from doing so. But, if you really expect Jews to forgive the barbaric and murderous behavior of the Catholic Church for 17 centuries towards us, it’s things like this you need to tell the Vatican they need to do.
“Why has the Vatican always pushed a “solution” to “peace” that specified that Jews not run Jerusalem?” The international community has never recognized Israel’s claim on East Jerusalem, so don’t pretend the Vatican doing the same is so surprising. The plan to call Jerusalem an “International City” is as old as the 1947 UN Partition Plan. To you the city is purely Jewish property, but the rest of the world, including the Vatican, would beg to differ.
In relation to Joel Bainerman’s article, what a conspiracy crock pot! Gee, it seems he’s uncovered a vast Catholic conspiracy to overtake the Old City!? Shall we call it the “Protocol of the Elders of the Vatican”? For a member of a group so maligned by conspiracy theories, I’m surprised you’d buy into such hare-brained accusations so easily. But then again, “a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.”
The article you sent is based on sheer speculation, twisting the evidence, which is circumstantial at best. I love how he refers to the Vatican as a “powerful force” wanting to gain “foreign control” of the Old City. What great monetary or military power does the Vatican have to influence actions in Israel?? The Pope has no nuclear weapons, you know, and the days of marching Crusades armies is long gone. What leverage does he have to force the Jews to do his bidding? “Big Gentile” you say. Please, (sadly, I say) who in the West listens to the Pope any more?? This isn’t the Middle Ages any more, you know. If you’re looking for “Gentile Power,” you really have to look at the US government. Besides, lots of people have interests in Jerusalem, but only one group has control: you, the Jews. If you or your government decides to give up control, whose fault is that??
It’s amazing how Joel has access to “secret” deals and all this “hidden” information. Wow, if it was so hidden, how did HE know about it? Just another paranoid conspiracy theory, up there with the 9/11 crock pots.
“…the agreement and it was included in the secret clauses of the Declaration Of Principles…”?? “…deal that it has signed with Israel via Yossi Beilin and Shimon Peres (in secret and without the approval of the Knesset)” -where does he get this??? BTW, the 1993 accord is yet to be ratified by the Knesset, and so has no legal power. (you knew that, didn’t you?)
“…plan also calls for Jerusalem to become the second Vatican of the world with all three major religions represented but under the authority of the Vatican.”??? WTF??? Do you think ANYONE would think the Muslims (or the Jews) would come under Vatican authority??
“It was also assumed that the original records of the Jerusalem Church which prove that the Vatican was not practicing Christianity as its founders had intended, was buried in this spot… If these scrolls were made public they would jeopardize Rome’s legitimacy. Thus it is imperative to The Vatican that the Jews be removed from the Temple Mount so that they don’t find these important scrolls. The PA is serving as the Vatican’s ‘building contractors’ ” … Joel so wants to believe these mythical scrolls exist, in order to support his wild thesis. Sounds almost as bad as the “Da Vinci Code.” (You know that was all fake, right?)
Really, it was a good laugh to hear the tale of the Pope conniving with Arafat to brew up the Second Intifada, and how even the Italian government is a tool of the Vatican. But seriously, you may know Joel Bainerman, and may think like him, but his article is anything but “scholarly.” Why don’t you read something less biased? You say the Vatican’s acts justify your intense fears, but it sounds more like your intense fears (of losing an inch of your precious territory) are looking for justification in the Vatican’s acts.
What does the Church want from Israel? The Church’s position (which some have called pro-Palestinian, but then again, about 9% of Palestinians are Catholic, vs. 0% of Jews) stems from searching for peace, and respecting the rights of Catholics. It’s positions on Jerusalem are consistent with those previously expressed by the UN. Does it have an interest in Jerusalem’s Old City? Of course it does, it’s where our Savior lived and died!! But that doesn’t mean it wants to “take over” the city. It does want to keep it’s tax exemption (as a church, and as it did under the Ottomans), that’s the main purpose of talks with the Israelis. Here’s a quote from an article from the Council on Foreign Relations: ( http://www.cfr.org/publication/19344/vaticanisrael_relations.html ):
“The [Catholic] church has extensive properties in Israel. When the region was controlled by the Ottoman Empire and later the League of Nations, those properties enjoyed a special legal and tax status–which became unclear once the state of Israel was created.”
Whether “extraterritorial” status is conferred to the property of the Holy See (a diplomatic entity) is up to the Israelis to decide.
And if for some reason Israel is so desperate to please the Pope, explain this entry from the National Catholic Register: ( http://www.ncregister.com/daily/18413/ )
Israel’s Chief Tax Collector has seized the funds of Catholic Church institutions in Israel in order to force them to submit to fiscal demands which he considers appropriate.
According to AsiaNews, Yehezkel Abrahamoff of Israel’s Finance Ministry has ordered the seizure to force the Church to pay taxes without waiting for the outcome of ongoing negotiations on the 1993 Fundamental Agreement between the Holy See and Israel.
Of course, in all of this, you fail to mention anything about Catholic property seized or destroyed by Jews in Israel (particularly between 1948-1955), like the village of Ikret and others.
Even if you were right about all your wild paranoid delusions regarding the Catholic Church, NOTHING could happen without the consent of the State of Israel. If some wild-crazed Muslim managed to legally take over portions of Jerusalem, whose fault would it be? His, for following his agenda, or the government that allowed it to happen? Take up these issues with your own silly politicians.
“An ‘I’m sorry’, no matter how eloquent, just does not cut it. Liquidating 15% of the Vatican’s assets and turning the funds over to us might begin to.”
In terms of all the evil that was done to Jews over 17 centuries, I agree. Your people were much mistreated for centuries, and I am sorry. But I feel no need to pay for my forefathers sins. And why single out the Catholic Church? I’m sure Protestants did the same. And by your logic, are you willing to liquidate 15% of your assets to pay African Americans for all they suffered for centuries as slaves? I’m sure we both had forefathers who dealt with slaves. Yet I hardly believe you give compensating them a second thought. Don’t get into the habit of blaming the present generation for sins of their ancestors, that’s exactly the logic Christians of old used to attack Jews, blaming them for Christ’s death.
“Eliminating prayers for the conversion of the Jews could be an added sweetener…” The only prayer Catholics use in reference to Jews -on Good Friday- has been watered down somewhat after Vatican Council II. And as I said before, there is a lot of debate regarding Jews finding salvation through the Old Covenant. But tell me, what other religion even begins to assert there may be salvation outside its own beliefs? Do Jews believe Catholics will be saved? If not, wouldn’t that be arrogance by your part?? What you call arrogant is what any religion would do: establish primacy of its own beliefs. Or would Jews put any other religion above theirs? You speak of religious arrogance, yet arrogantly proclaim this land to be yours because “God told you” it was…
“Acknowledging publicly and permanently that we are the sole and rightful owners of all of Jerusalem would really help.” Name three countries that recognize East Jerusalem as part of Israel. Please! If not, why single out the Vatican??
The Church has reached out to Jews, it has recognized past atrocities. We have said we’re sorry. Whether you want to bitterly retain old grudges is your problem.
Again, this has been very instructional. At least now I know where you get your wild ideas on the Church. Remember this rule of thumb on conspiracy theories: what is more likely true, that you and a small band of like-minded fellows have uncovered a truth that nobody else knows about, or that you’re being sold on a half-baked idea that plays on your own personal biases/fears? What’s more likely, that a handful of people are right and the rest of the world is wrong, or that the world is right, and that a handful of people are wrong?
But I feel no need to pay for my forefathers sins. And why single out the Catholic Church? I’m sure Protestants did the same. And by your logic, are you willing to liquidate 15% of your assets to pay African Americans for all they suffered for centuries as slaves? I’m sure we both had forefathers who dealt with slaves. Yet I hardly believe you give compensating them a second thought. Don’t get into the habit of blaming the present generation for sins of their ancestors, that’s exactly the logic Christians of old used to attack Jews, blaming them for Christ’s death.
Boy! How you work yourself into a lather when a Jew tells you off! I haven’t forgotten the Catholic kids who called me Christ-killer as a child. I haven’t forgotten the bullying Catholics indulged in against Jews in Brooklyn. I’m giving you a tiny dose of the medicine you Catholics fed us for centuries – holding you responsible for what other Catholics did to us. Oh, how you scream bloody murder! It doesn’t go down like apples and honey, does it?
My grandfather did not own black slaves. Nor did any relative of mine. We lived in Poland until my grampa and daddy went to Ellis Island to flee the Russian and Polish knout a century ago. So, while lots and lots of you Americans may owe the blacks in your country reparations for holding them as slaves and second class citizens for centuries, I get out of paying. The same goes for reparations to American Indians. Now, let’s be fair. You get out of paying, too. Your daddy was in Chile and you were born there.
Let’s face it, Chileno. “I’m sorry” does not cut it. I’m not criticizing you. You are not sitting on millions of dollars of wealth stolen from Jews. You are just an average guy, like me. So all you can say is, “I’m sorry.” I understand – to expect more from you is unreasonable.
But the Vatican, the boys in Rome, they are a whole different ball-game. Those guys are loaded. For them, “I’m sorry” is a piker’s way out – cheaper than, if you’ll excuse the expression, a Jew.
Israel’s Chief Tax Collector has seized the funds of Catholic Church institutions in Israel in order to force them to submit to fiscal demands which he considers appropriate.
According to AsiaNews, Yehezkel Abrahamoff of Israel’s Finance Ministry has ordered the seizure to force the Church to pay taxes without waiting for the outcome of ongoing negotiations on the 1993 Fundamental Agreement between the Holy See and Israel.
You bring me good news!! Thank you! Finally a Jew is kicking the Vatican derierre instead of kissing it! It’s about time!! I’ll note the lesson, and be careful not to mess with the mas hakhnasa people here, the Israeli equivalent of the IRS. Thank you not only for the good news, but the reminder as well.
What’s more likely, that a handful of people are right and the rest of the world is wrong, or that the world is right, and that a handful of people are wrong?
I take my examples from my Patriarch and ancestor, Abraham. His handful of people were right – and the rest of the world has been wrong – for millennia.
It has been enlightening discussing this with you Chileno. But the lights fade with repetition. And we both should move on. I bid you a good evening, and blessings from Samaria,
Ruvy
I find it amusing you think I’ve “worked myself up into a lather” simply because I used examples regarding how others have used old claims to wrongly punish new generations. I’m not the one screaming “bloody murder” about how the Church should pay up (in cash, not words) for past sins, or calling the Pope a Nazi enemy of Israel. Your response makes it seem I hit a raw nerve.
I’m a sixth-generation Chileno, and the whole notion of bullying Jews is foreign to me. My experiences with Jews, from high school in the US on down, have been positive ones. The Best Man at my wedding was a very good Jewish friend of mine (who is now in Tel Aviv), and I was his Best Man at his beautiful Jewish wedding up in Westchester County. It seems your past experiences with Catholics have left you scarred. I’m sorry ignorant Catholics with a flawed notion of Jews did what they did to you, but I still don’t think I -or the Catholic Church- need to pay up in cash for any past sins. The fact that “I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it for you speaks more about your personal anger/need for retribution from the Catholic Church than any real need for reparations ever mentioned by your government.
I’m glad you enjoyed the good news. As I said before, no matter what the Vatican’s intentions, they are nothing without your government’s consent. That’s where you and your people should focus your attention.
And yes, this is getting a little long, and I feel we’re starting to go around in circles. I’m pretty sure we’ll cross paths on PJM again, though next time I hope we are more or less on the same side… I do not agree with many of your opinions, but make no mistake, though I question some of Israel’s policies, I would never question Israel’s legality as a State. Take care. May God bless you and keep you, may He shine His face upon you.
Chileno
Very interesting exchange, Ruvy and Chileno. I’ve learned a lot!
- Friedmeister in Kfar Saba
I agree with almost all of this article EXCEPT the title – it is not a “wall” for the most part but a fence. Only a very small percentage is solid wall – built to stop terrorist snipers targeting Israelis.