Lessons (for Obama) from Flight 253
Somewhere in between the highly publicized rounds of golf and strolls on the beach that President Obama is currently taking while on vacation in Hawaii, someone in his inner circle needs to tell him there’s an important lesson to be learned from the failed terrorist attack on Northwest Airlines Flight 253. That lesson is that our posture towards terrorists (and terrorism) matters.
Let’s begin by agreeing that every successful terrorist attack against the United States doubles as a recruitment video for rabid jihadists, eager to spill the blood of infidels and strike terror in the heart of the “great Satan.”
We saw this after the Ft. Hood shootings on November 5, when militants Islamists took to American streets the very next day:
The message that should be taken from what took place yesterday at Ft. Hood … is that this war will be fought on American soil. That the blood of … American military personnel will run in the very streets they were raised in.
But when a terrorist attack is publicly thwarted, as was Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab’s attempt to ignite the incendiary material in his underwear on Northwest Airlines Flight 253 on Christmas Day, militants aren’t as quick to take to the streets. In fact, they hastily distance themselves from the incompetent bomber by denying his ties to al-Qaeda (although we already knew he was tied to al-Qaeda).
Citizens understand this. Thus when passengers smelled the smoke Abdulmutallab created while trying to carry out his attack, they jumped him, subdued him, and dragged him to the front of the plane. As Fox News reported on December 26, 2009:
Experts say an aggressive response from passengers has become the common response [to attempted terror attacks] since … 9/11.
But where is Obama’s “aggressive response”? What do average everyday citizens know that he doesn’t?
For starters, they know that the militant Islamists are bent on killing Westerners, and Americans in particular. And although as recently as Sunday, December 27, NPR had not retracted its position that Abdulmutallab only had “possible ties to terrorism,” citizens aboard Northwest Airlines Flight 253 had enough common sense to know that Abdulmutallab was attempting a terrorist act whether NPR-type thinkers could ascertain it or not.
More importantly, they knew his actions required an overpowering reaction.
Are you serious ? You think Obama cares about this ? He is the arch-villan, out to subjugate the country. You better wake up. He won’t ditch anything, except all of our rights. I suspect you will see things you never thought possible before the next two election days.
Lard the Crotch Bomber with bacon and bury him alive in pig manure. That would send the right message.
Apparently this creep from Nigeria was radicalized by the same Imam who sent us the Fort Hood shooter. Seems very easy to imagine this Imam in Yemen to walk out of his mosque one day and gain a bullet between his eyes from 300 yards. I ask: why is this not done?
“Man, did you see that drive! I bet that sucker went 230 yards. I’d like to see Tiger do *that*! Especially lately. Heh.”
- President Obama.
George W. Bush is greatly responsible for our airline security crisis. He is a politically correct whack job who allowed the feckless and irresponsible Norman Mineta to do a tremendous amount of damage as Transportation Secretary. However, Barack Obama has made the situation far worse. Bush would not have treated this 23-year-old terrorist as a common criminal. No, Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab would have been handled as someone declaring war on the United States. He is regretfully not undergoing interrogation by specialists—but being advised by his attorney how best to jack the system.
Obama knows perfectly what is at stake and which behaviors will help and which will not.
The point is that his agenda is not America’s agenda, his agenda is karl marx’ agenda, lenin agenda, chavez agenda, mixed with other, equally infamous agendas.
And all his administration is on the same line,
And all the democratic senators are, INCLUDING the fake dissidents.
That is the problem.
The nomenklatura of nihilism, subversivism, marxism-leninism that has moved from its rat life in the colleges and in the media to political power.
They don’t make mistakes.
What is happening is exactly what they planned and what we have yelled for one year it would have happened.
This is what happens when an affirmative action, communist wannabe gets appointed president.
@#2
Why ruin good bacon? Spend the money for one .44 shell, go to a slaughter house, dip the bullet in pigs blood and then shoot him between the eyes with it. Video record the entire process and let them know this will be done to every terrorist we catch. Heck, let them believe we dip ALL of our bullet in pigs blood or dog saliva.
Take away the promise of Heaven and 72 virgins and they won’t be so eager to fight or die.
For Obama either to learn anything from Flight 253, or to react in a constructively manly fashion to what happened there, would require more courage than he possesses.
It’s not as if the event were absolutely unprecedented, either. We’ve had Richard Reid and United Flight 93 as precursors. But Obama’s rabbit’s courage is what it is…and even if it were otherwise — if he were an actual man rather than a cardboard cutout — his sympathies remain with the Muslims.
Americans must accept that our defense lies in our own hands.
lol …like he/it/whatever will do anything that Joe the plumber would consider correct/normal/common sensical.
for him/it (check with Larry Sinclair) would actually learn something ..anything is laughable. he/it knows everything.
good luck people …hope it can be reversed, although every day I think it is getting past that point.
they have control of the education system and that means more then a generation lost (maybe two generations since the democrats are basically the first group of brainwashed)
I sure hope the Imam/s involved are being water boarded as I write this. What about the Mosque the terrorist, I mean criminal, attended.
A week ago Pakistan picked up five American Muslims from Virgina following Mohamed. I guess, in a week we will have forgotten this example of Allah worship, and be outraged at the next example.
Keep allowing Muslim immigration into America Homeland Security. We can all look forward to Deerbornstands all over America wanting Sharia law.
ROPMA!
‘the system worked’: Nothing could possibly top that official statement emanating from Ms. Napolitano. Will US taxpayers have to foot the bill for the perp’s scrotal skin grafts? How long befor3e the media descibes the abject poverty arife in Nigeria? Fave it gang, we’re governed and watached over by moronic incompetents. The best government money can buy.
I love Janet “the loon” Napolitano’s take on the result of all this – “the system worked”!
Really Janet?
Do you think any part of ‘your’ system worked? This perp ended up becoming a human sparkler only because ‘the system worked’?
He failed only because the explosives didn’t do their job. Now if you have some inside info I don’t – such as “we had people on the ground who armed this idiot with a giant sparkler” rather than an explosive to prevent a huge catastrophe – or you secretly had this Scottsman onboard specifically to deter this guy – then yes – the system worked.
I’m not so afraid of idiots like this that try to blow up planes as I am of idiots such as you – Janet – who seem to think ‘the system worked’.
What a whack job.
Dr. Hawkins, I respectfully disagree.
President Obama has given us his perspective on this latest terrorist attack. It is his personal silence. It does not rise to the level of a statement from him. As such, it is less important to him than, say, the actions of a police officer in Cambridge, MA.
The answer lies also with the statements of the Olympic-caliber ineptness of one Janet Napolitano.
In her statements she relays the assessment of the administration, for example:
The system worked = we intended to stop terrorists, but the fact that one got away does not diminish the fact that we intended to get him. It isn’t our fault that his detonator failed.
He was issued a visa in 2008 = its Bush’s fault.
We arrested him and he will be arranged in Federal court Monday = this is a law enforcement problem.
I could go on but I have no intention of writing a book length treatise on the subject.
Mr. Hawkins: what is your point here simpleton? the whole 9/11 went down under your beloved President Bush. did it not? I was wondering if you tried then to blame the liberal and gays for this… look here Obama is here to run the show for another 7 years. get hip to it.
It appears the PC BS has not left the building yet. Fox News is still calling terrorist acts Islamic extremism. How can following Mohamed be extreme within Islam?
Wake up America.
OK, OK, Janet seems to be an inane twit. But she is a very sensitive and loving individual, and she ‘cares’. She’s clearly occupying the wrong position in Obama’s administraton. I suggest she be moved to a less critical area, say, Medicare.
If citizens want a solution to the Obama problem, read Federalist Paper # 10.
Indeed, “President” Obama has been a complete let down since he took office (Not that I had any faith in his “Change” campaign anyways). The man would most likely rather stick his head in the dirt and pretend nothing is happening than pick up a gun and defend this country from an attack.
*Extreme Example*(SaG) Could you imagine how the movie “Independence Day” would have been if we had a president like him? Id say it would be about… 59 minutes shorter and a few billion more deaths.
He doesn’t understand the idea of Personal Responsibility. He clearly believes that big government is good, and that the government should run everything (yea I really want the people who run the DMV to run my health care *insert sarcasm*…). Unfortunately, now HES the government, and now HE has to do things, and I really don’t think he had that in mind when he signed up for this.
As Francis pointed out, the defense of this country and our freedoms lie in our hands. That ideal may become more and more of a harsh reality the more Obama twiddles away at our freedoms and our rights. It’s almost as if were being set up for a hostile take over (No conspiracies here, just observations).
I feel that this current terrorist attack, and that is what it actually is, can be laid at the feet of Obama.
He lives in a virtual world of his own rhetoric and refusal to recognize actuality, which includes the reality of evil, and of Al Qaeda’s agenda against America – has activated Al Qaeda to PROVE that it exists.
Obama’s rejection of Al Qaeda’s power, his denigration of their power to harm…by changing their definition from ‘terrorists’ to ‘man-caused disasters’, and his rejection of the ‘War on Terror’ to ‘Overseas Contingency Operation’ was a rhetorical device to ‘intellectually obiterate’them.
Just as Sarkozy blasted Obama for refusing to recognize actual reality and living in a ‘virtual world’…the Al Qaeda are retaliating against Obama’s indifference to them by again attacking the US.
Bush moved Islamic fascism back into the Islamic countries where these radical Islamists could fight moderate Islamics. But Obama has incited the Islamic fascists back to attacking America.
Obama’s silence at the moment, (imagine if Bush had golfed while a terrorist tried to blow up an American plane); his leaving all comments up to the White House staff – show Obama’s indifference to attacks against America.
And note what the WH has done; they blame, not Al Qaeda, not terrorism…but security. It’s Americans who are at fault; their security is no good.
I predict there will be more attacks against America, as long as Obama and the WH refuse to recognize evil and terrorism, as long as they live in their virtual world of ‘Blame America’ and thus, incite Islamic fascists to prove that they exist.
Uh, oh. The Jihadists have figured out how to spot our air marshals and fly other airlines. The marshals are batting 0 for 2. The bureaucratic solution, of course, will be to equip every airline flight with an air marshal, belonging to SEIU, of course.
The Left along with their Islamic brothers intend to create crisis after crisis until they accomplish their goals of making slaves or killing all of the infidels (Christians, Jews and anybody who stands in their way). The President is the leader of the Left and like it or not he will not relent but will continue this agenda until the American people put a stop to it by kicking him, his fellow travelers out of office and out of power along with their bureaucracy and their systems of enslavement. They honestly believe they are in total control and nothing can stop them once they have their systems in place. Only those who cling to God and guns stand in their way as the president has said and those on the Left are relentless in their efforts to eliminate God and guns. “Let no crisis go to waste”. Every opportunity will be used to further remove God given freedom. All freedom loving Americans should see themselves in the seats of flight 253 over Detroit and determine what their response would be and keep that in mind when it comes to dealing with our current government. We are being flown to destruction and someone needs to pour some water on the fire and throw a headlock on the perpetrators and drag them to front of the plane, tie them to their seats before we are scattered in pieces over the ground below. Anyone think we haven’t gotten there yet? Want to wait and find out? Then it may be too late. Seek the truth and demand righteousness in the streets. If our elected representatives can no longer discern the truth and act rightly we need to find those who can. Some of you who are in the camp of this enemy of freedom need to wake up in a hurry before you find yourselves arresting your grandmother. Some of you who engaged in great sport to bash defenders of freedom in previous years, spouting lies and half truths are seeing the things you accused the right of doing actually being done by the Left. Let’s see if there is any truth in you and if there is will you stand up for it or sit on your hands fearing to speak or act in fear of accusations of hypocrisy. Change your minds defend truth and you’ll find the people of the truth very forgiving. Thank God in Heaven that someone stood up on flight 253, a lot of life was preserved by that courageous act of love and truth.
NPR is always behind the 8-ball. They’re slow to catch up, poor things. But catch up, they do. Sometimes. Today, for example, on “Talk of the Nation,” they actually addressed the fact that the Fort Hood shooter had blatantly and directly asked the cleric if it was ok for him to shoot fellow soldiers. They went so far as to say that this question in one of his e-mails is irrefutable proof that the attack was jihadi. Well bowl me over?
Waiting around for NPR to wake up is a joke. They’re pathetic.
God I long for Bush and Cheney…we have pimple faced punks running our country.
Obama is clueless. And the attacks are going to keep coming till he decides to take it to the terrorists before they can bring it to us.
@#3 Maurice:
How about a Hellfire Missle? Would that work for you?
A lot of talk of how best to dispose of the terrorists with bacon and pigs blood, and while I am not averse to any of these ideas, might I suggest we use them to derive some tangible benefits for ourselves first. Medical experimentation a perfect way to test inter-species transplant, say swine to human organ transplant. The point is we can derive some benefit for mankind from them.
We must show strength soon, or I fear we will lose our freedom of mobility (via air flight rife with danger). And I don’t think Obama cares.
If we are so stupid as to tolerate the likes of Napolitano, and the other politically correct toads that currently occupy Washington, we deserve to be attacked. Biology teaches that those who are not intelligent enough to defend themselves earn their place on the endangered species list and deserve to go extinct.
8 years…no attacks.
11 months…how many is that now?
The ONLY lesson Obama will learn from this (and that goes for his flunkies in his admin and the members of congress) is to NEVER fly commercial!!!
Here is an article on the El Al approach to airline security, and why it succeeds where others fail:
http://spinstrangenesscharm.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/airline-security-why-is-el-al-different-from-others/
Instead of inconveniencing all passengers with additional restrictions, why don’t we restrict the ease with which radical islamists can obtain a religious visa from our immigration office.
How inane is it to allow family-reported terrorist to obtain and then not revoke a religious visa.
In fact, I believe that religious visas should not be available to religions that have declared war on the US.
I think I’ve outgrown all of you. I’m operating on an different, higher plane. It was etab #20 that brought on my epiphany . . . nothing remarkable about #20. In fact, its bland and baseless drone is what distinguished it . . . . as so common and defining of this PJM experience.
“He lives in a virtual world of his own rhetoric and refusal to recognize actuality, which includes the reality of evil . . . ”
Good god, i mean really . . . set aside the numbing amateurish of thought and language and just take it on its face, compared to this:
“I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: Evil does exist in the world. A nonviolent movement could not have halted Hitler’s armies. Negotiations cannot convince al-Qaida’s leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism — it is a recognition of history, the imperfections of man and the limits of reason.” – Barack Obama
Don’t take it personally, etab. You know not what you do (and don’t). It’s just happened to be your pedestrian stroll through Wingnuttia that told me, “This is a colossal waste of time.” It could have been any one of two dozen similarly (and consistently) deluded and ideological googlepedists. You know who you are (or at least who you think you are).
What guise now? What snares await?
ffffffffffffffffftt!
..it could go like this…
“Folks, this is the Capt speaking. I thank the brave passengers who just subdued this jihadi idiot. Thankfully, our flight will continue on course. Now, if everyone will return to their seats and securely fasten their seat belts. There will be a brief loss of cabin pressure and a little turbulence as we open the main cabin door temporarily…..OK…well, folks, that’s that, the plane is 180 lbs lighter. Our beverage service will begin shortly, I’ve turned off the fasten seat belt sign, now sit back and enjoy the rest of the flight…”
#28. Jason
Obama does care about us losing our freedom of mobility–a lot. He wants all the peasants to have nothing more capable of long distance travel than a bicycle. When the lab rats can flee (voting with their feet) it is very hard to conduct the experiments in social engineering needed to create the New Utopia. Remember “white flight” from the big urban areas that led to the explosive growth of the suburbs?
Unfettered personal mobility is the bane of a “progressive” government. That’s why “progressives” hate the automobile and that’s why their antecedents built the Berlin Wall. Its embarrassing to build a Utopia and to have no one show up for the grand opening. How can peasants be so rude?
Any thoughts on the fact that the second incident actually was an attack. Just because no explosives or weapons were used dose not mean it was not a psyop mission. Just lock yourself in the bathroom and that will disrupt air traffic and generate confusion along with media coverage.
Ms. Napolitano is right. How many five-year olds carrying their blankies have brought down our planes? Exactly zero, tea-bagger! And how many 75-year-olds named Helen or Lois have blown up airplane lavs lately, smart-guy? That’s what I thought! Keep up the great work, Jan, we are definitely safer now than under that fascist hate-monger Bush and Cheney.
#33, mjs,
Could you please tell me how a Muslim following Mohammed can be radical?
Thank you.
set aside the numbing amateurish of thought and language
numbing amateurish of thought and language
numbing amateurish of thought
numbing amateurish
Here’s what we do . . . while this guy is undergoing genital reconstruction at our expense, have the doctor replace his heart valves with those from a pig.
Then let him know about it when he wakes up.
set aside the numbing amateurish of thought and language
numbing amateurish of thought and language
numbing amateurish of thought
numbing amateurish
Pure 100% homegrown American education right thur.
N&T(34),
Yoo-hoo, simpleton (as I figuratively tap on your milque-toast shoulder), those were just words in another vacuous speech. Actions speak louder than words, eh? Here is an example – your liege lord SAYS it is important to have fiscal discipline, then he proceeds to quadruple our deficit. Your Big Kahuna Czar SAYS he cannot stand idle to threats to the American people, yet that IS what he is doing. Is this speech vs. actions thing sinking in, N&T? Don’t let your superior intellect bury your common sense – its inside you, you just have to concentrate extra hard to extract it (as all doctrinaire utopian-fantacists do).
now and then: Obamas speech really sounds like beat prose at the local coffee shop, and who better to recognize it than the latest ultimate
frenchman Sarkozy. saying it just doesn’t make it so. because we are stuck with Barry for the next 3 years, i would like him to move the jihadist up to the front of the line, for the throw them under the bus category. i really think they(jihadist) are demanding this honor. just my opinion
Really, Now and Then? Really and for true?
Now and Then #34. You live in a virtual world just as does Obama. Words, words, words. His speech, written for him, to try to stem the massive loss of electoral support from the all-important independents (who are centre-right and support the war on terror)is pure rhetoric.
Take a look at Obama’s actions. He’s refused to acknowledge that the war is a ‘war vs terrorism’; it’s an ‘overseas contingency operation’ which removes all enemy agents and all agential intentionality.
He refuses to call terrorist acts as such, and instead they are defined as ‘man-caused disasters’ which puts them akin to accidents or criminal acts.
He’s moved the 9/11 trial to a criminal rather than military court, which further defines their acts as criminal rather than war-actions and has given them a huge public podium to air their grievances vs the US.
He refused to call Ft. Hood a terrorist or Islamist act, again,trying to define it as a psychological individual aberration.
He spent months dithering about Afghanistan and was only forced to act by that massive loss of independent electoral support.
He is enabling Iran to develop a nuclear weapon and driving Sarkozy to anger by his refusal to acknowledge the reality of their nuclear weapon ambitions.
And his reaction to this Xmas Day attempt, delayed by days (imagine if it had been Bush golfing rather than reacting) has been to blame America and the West..for their glitches in security. Heh. What about the agenda of these Al Qaeda?
Now and Then, I’d advise you to move away from your slavish adulation of Obama’s vapid rhetoric..and take a look at his actions.
Obama is inciting Al Qaeda to attempt more attacks vs America by his open rejection of Evil, of terrorism and of their agenda.
The Christmas attack may be the greatest example to date of Obama’s incompetence. Not only is he not gualified to lead – he’s simply not leading. We are not agreesively going after terrorists. And as Hawkins points out, the terrorists we do capture we’re going out of our way to be nice toward (so the world likes us of course). Wake up Obama – we will always be infidels to these people!!!
<a href="http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=279914"Duh.
President Obama is still evaluating the latest “man caused disaster”.
That being said, I give him credit for increased use of drone attacks on the enemy in the Afghan theater. I have little faith in his ability to lead, but I hope as our President he quietly orders a substantial uptick in drone activity over Yemen. I am pretty certain the Saudis will help us with the logistics as they have serious issues with the Yemenis. I give Obama credit for finally making the right decision about the Afghan operatioanal area.
The proven way to unbalance and attrit Al Queda is to bring the operation to the enemy area of refuge. Drones and Special Forces recon and direct action is what is needed now, and at a substantially increased rythm. I am quite certain the proper Yemeni officials can be bought off for a couple of million dollars so that actionable intelligence can be obtained.
When the west stops valuing political correctness over our freedoms and takes the gloves off, the war on terror will begin to turn in our favor. For all his naive campaign rhetoric, bowing, and kid gloving that marked the first 11 months of his Presidency, maybe he learned something when he got his face slapped by the Chinese premier, watched his soft words for the mullahs result in an Iranian nuclear detonator and the bloody deaths of protesters, and went 0 for 2 in Copenhagen. Maybe he is begining to learn how diplomacy works hand in glove with real politic. We will soon find out.
Duh. (Another kind of a “Duh” — an HTML typo.)
The Christmas attack was a simple reminder that electing Obama put us all at risk. We’re in a war he doesn’t want to win.
I like Tom Kratmanz idea from one of his books, Sex changes for all captured male terrorists, then execution. Send them to Allah as female virgins.
#% David Thompson notes it well.
Its not Obama and making it an “Obama issue” obscures the real one.
Its the government and its rampant unaccountable incomeptence as a whole.
Despite decades of warnings, they did nothing to prevent 9-11, or Richard Reid. Reid ought to have been banned from flying.
The government learns nothing. Even today we do not profile. INstead, we search tall blondes and old grandmothers.
So this guy got a visa after his own dad ratted him out to us.
We were saved -not by the government and its pile of alphabet agencies, but by a flying Dutchman.
What a system.
If it isn’t obvious by now I will just say it.
The U.S. government lets incidents happen in order to push for whatever agenda they are pushing for, be it to enter a war or to erode individual rights.
Roosevelt was briefed that the future of naval warfare was submarines and aircraft carriers, then a few days before pearl harbour, ordered all of the submarines and aircraft carriers out of pearl harbour, leaving the battleships to be bombed.
Every plane going off course over the continetal US was intercepted by fighters since the founding of NORAD until 9-11-2000 when somehow 4 planes went off course and were ignored.
Read between the lies people. The government no doubt knew this guy was likely to try something and were willing to let a few hundred people die in order to implement tighter security on people who want to travel.
pig skin body bags
It will require a costly, deadly, catastrophe to protect us from the fools and knaves in power. If not now, when? If not soon, when?
Obama aside, look at the unbelievably childish and entirely ignorant statements of Janet Napalitano. ‘the system worked’ A six year old can see that because of her insistence on NOT recognizing radical jihadists as a threat to America, those terrorists are high five’ing each other because they cannot believe their good fortune. She needs to go, as does the bulk of her staff, and everyone else who’s watch this debacle was allowed to happen.
Say what you will…those of you who keep saying “obama won, get over it” and those who keep dredging up that all too tired “it’s Bush’s fault” to supplant the ignorance of those who are tasked with keeping this country safe. Keep parroting the party line, because while we keep “reacting” to incidents instead of preventing them…jihadists are trying literally everything they can think of to kill us, and because of our Howdy Doody administration’s attitude, they are going to succeed.
We should be looking for terrorists…not explosive devices. Profile the bastards….stop worrying about offending people…( who are white wealthy liberals, by the way) and DO THE EFFING JOB THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!! Why we have to risk our lives to do the job of our Goverment is appalling….and citizens are currently the ONLY people capable of preventing attacks.
Janet!! You are hopelessly unqualified for this job. Your ideology is opposite what is needed, your experience is non existent, and your will to do what is necessary is as absent as your capabilities. Step down, and do it now. If you dont, your inexperience and lack of courage to act are going to get a lot of innocent people killed, and it will be entirely YOUR FAULT.
Obama doesnt have the cajones to get rid of you….he hasnt been instructed what to do with you yet….so be the first in this Administration to do a patriotic thing. Leave. You will be the better for it, and we, the American people, can replace you with someone who can do the job, and do it right.
Now and Then @ 34:
A higher plane? Good, that means you won’t be bothering us down here in the “lower planes” anymore, right?
Only someone of Obama’s intellect could have left himself so open to so obvious a reply.
Back to Ms. Napolitano, you have to understand her perspective as a Washington bureaucrat.
* An incident occurred.
* Some grunt wrote a report.
* Said report got passed up the line of supervisors and managers until it landed on her desk.
* She read it.
Ergo, the system worked, in her eyes. The report got written and read by all who should read it. What more can you ask for (in a Washington bureaucrat’s world)?
As for us folks who want the terrorists to be kept off planes, well, to her, we’re obviously all bumpkins from flyover country, what do we matter? For that matter–again, to Napolitano–Detroit is itself in flyover country, what’s the big deal if a plane gets blown up over it? It was probably all Republicans and tea-partiers on the plane anyway, since Napolitano knows that The Important People (other Washington bureaucrats and Hollyweird bigwigs) fly in their own planes or charters, never in a commercial plane. So what’s wrong–to Napolitano, remember–if a plane full of unimportant citizens gets blown up?
To be fair I just watched the President’s short address on the issue and he did well.
The President is not the entire government. He does command considerable resources and personel who may not agree with his politics but will fight like dogs to defend this nation.
He said in political terms the equivalent of “let loose the dogs of war”. That is what I expect and demand from the President in such a situation.
I am not a fan and did not vote for him. At this point this is what we have. Now is the time for our nation to show that we are united in both defense and offense. We will act aggresively against anyone trying this sort of thing. We will crush them. They need to hear that and feel it.
Spindok
It is really getting tiresome reading essays like this. What we have is an entirely neo-communist President and Democrat Party. They will never do the right thing, always drive us toward Communism. These folks need to die. Since we can’t kill them all, because more are always being born and educated in the schools, we have to beat them at the polls—at every election.
What happens when America fully wakes up, and sees that it’s Obama we need to fear most?
The real question here is who is running the strings for our peppet Presdient? Certainly we have the most affirmative action Presidency in history. Choices made on diversity rather than competence, but then that could bs said for the American peoples’s choice a year ago. Oh Why di John McCAin so lack the fire and why with that lack of fire was he the candidate. WE are in real trobule fols, the correciton must come and it must be a landslide.
The always entertaining N & T writes in a snit: I think I’ve outgrown all of you. I’m operating on an different, higher plane.
Translation: “It’s becoming increasingly obvious even to me (and plenty of other lefties, like Jane Hamsher, for instance) that Obama is an incompetent bumbler and the Dems are going to get hammered in 2010. Reality is starting to filter in and it’s making my head hurt. Things just aren’t working out the way I thought they would a year ago. I’d better leave before the cognitive dissonance I’m feeling causes my brain to explode. What a mess that would make of mom’s basement.”
Bye,bye, little boy! Go get your favorite blankey and settle down for a good cry, it might help.
I did not notice any mention of the Homeland Security lapse in late November whereby all of the boarding and search measures which are used by TSA were inadvertently ( ?) divulged . It was something like 90 pages of secret procedures and SOP’s posted online.
The outrage of that scandal never developed since the Government Press ignored the story . So now we have a consequence of that failure and President Obama assures the public he will do everything in his power to correct the situation. Except take the steps necessary to eliminate the incompetent boobs running the administration, that is.
Ms. takes a Nap needs to go!
The guy’s own father saw the signs and called him “radicalized; going on some sort of Jihad” and went out of his way to try to warn US representatives and prevent the damn thing. What do more “intelligence” do you need? He is from a wealthy, educated, powerful family. Ring a bell?
The British news was all over this angle, but MSM just lets
I’m annoyed as a Canadian that has lived within walking distance of the border all my life and used to cross the line whenever I felt like shopping or visiting another, similar country for the weekend. Ms. Nap continues to say stupid things like “the terrorists came from Canada” or “we will treat the border with you just like Mexico” to appeal to illegal alien sympathizers.
Meanwhile, we are no safer. I feel less safe, except I know people like Jasper will come through. Not the government. Yours or mine.
Same song, 14th verse. I am still reading columns on all manner of conservative sites containing lines like this one…”there’s an important lesson to be learned from the failed terrorist attack”.
Can someone please help me understand why these American conservative writers, who by the evidence are indeed thoughtful peopple, still apparently believe that obama has any interest in protecting America? Do they still believe that obama is upset by any of these things that are happening?
Times awastin’, folks. Better step up the mental processes. Continuing to hammer the imperatives about what obama “has to do” or “someone had better get to him to tell him to do” is truly a complete waste of time. I suppose until that is acknowledged, these kinds of columns will continue. Too bad, because we need these fine patriotic minds working on something that we DON’T know–like how is this sovereign nation going to survive 2010 intact?
Spindok at 60,
Sorry, I watched the statement too.
President O is begining to sort out his understanding of the world and compare it to his Constitutional responsibilities. He is slowly factoring in an adjustment, based on getting his hind portion handed to him for 11 months. His mouth can’t seem yet to find a true north, but his adjustment (Afghanistan) and condemning an incident where a foriegner attempted mass murder are slowly tacking him to find the wind. I give him some credit for knowing who the enemy is, sometimes, and ordering their deaths.
Progress, however glacial.
All day long I’ve been hearing on talk radio callers blaming this recent terrorist attack on President Bush. Good grief, when will the Bush Derangement Syndrome finally be put to bed!! Bush is not the President, hasn’t been for almost a year now. Barry Obambi put the incompetent Janet Napolitano as head of DHS and she has been a miserable failure. If President Bush were still in charge the thundering herd of lefty lemmings would be screaming for his head as well as hers. The sound of silence from the left on this latest failure is deafening.
“The passengers who subdued the terrorist understand what the president apparently does not.”
He might understand it a little better if we got rid of secret service protection for elected officials and their families, and if we stared making the scumbags fly commercial.
I suspect that liberal types would be a lot more motivated to play hardball with terrorists, if it was THEIR asses that were on the line.
Are you still proud that you voted for Obama? Really!? MMM MMM MMM ROFLMAO
Yuk! I’ve just seen a photo of the “Underwear bomb” that the Muslim misunderstander of Islam was wearing.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/northwest-airlines-bomb-photos/story?id=9436297
Is this what “passes” for whitey tighties in Nigeria? Haven’t they heard of detergent?
@67. Meryl
Amen.
The incessant “critique” and paucity of pro-active prescriptions got old a couple months back.
It’s time to get rid of Holder and Napolitano; but Holder first. He is not at all acting in the interest of the citizens of the United States, nor for their safety. Unfortunately, except by impeachment we cannot remove the President from office at this time. But we can increase his vocal opposition to the point he is neutralized. And it is essential that the Democrats lose majority control of Congress. There is work to be done. The time for talk is over. America, organize! The barbarians are at the gates!
69. kenny komodo:
“All day long I’ve been hearing on talk radio callers blaming this recent terrorist attack on President Bush. Good grief, when will the Bush Derangement Syndrome finally be put to bed!! Bush is not the President, hasn’t been for almost a year now.”
Heard of the Bush Legacy?
Can’t erase History, can you?
Not only is Barry-O a corrupt incompetent, an illegitimate poseur, but he and his Reid/Pelosi-crats are hate-America types purposefully striving to blight and ruin everything they touch. Face it, BHO is a taqifa-playing Muslump fraud and degenerate Maoist death-eater to boot. Effective anti-terrorism measures are the last thing this administration seeks– far better to incite another 9/11 (as the otherwise inexplicable KSM trial in New York likely will) with the object of mounting an effective coup de main by cheerfully declaring Martial Law.
Any resulting civil insurrection will be met with brutal violence worthy of Cousin Odinga early in 2008, when TV showed our sterling defender of democracy and freedom egging on Muslim tribal mobs against pathetically undefended Christian churches in Nairobi, Mombasa, and elsewhere. For sheer revolting sleaze allied to clinical Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), nothing beats BHO in full-throated teleprompter mode. How any normal person could have failed to see this years ago remains a mystery known only to Dan Rather, Mary Mapes, and driveling media ideologues of their atavistic, reactionary ilk.
I wonder when the justice (sic) dept will prosecute the guy who bagged the terroist for assault?
New York is also the place that will have a HUGE mosque built very near to or adjacent to the 9/11 massacre site. The Muslims just bought a building there. The City of New York should deny them a building permit. But, being politically correct, NYC will not. And Americans will be forced to look at Muslims rejoicing over their slaughter of us whenever they raise their butts in the air at that mosque. Don’t think they won’t do what they already do in Manger Square in Bethlehem—they block the Church of the Nativity by praying en masse in Manger Square. We will see them do the same on the WTC grounds. Obama? He’ll be rejoysing with them.
don’t forget folks…this bunch of incompetent fools will soon be “running” our health care. God help us.
No. 61 Tex Expatriate is correct. Obama could care less about our lives or our liberty, terrorists, pandemics, Iranian freedom fighters or even his own children. Stop with the treatises and big words, he laughs at the discourse and his andlers/controllers are every day one stop closer to subjegating us completely. Those who think this is political Democrat versus Republican are delusional. This is about human freedom and liberty and there will be a day when it will come to blows. Who is on the side of our freedoms? We shall see …..
HAVE GUN, WILL TRAVEL
======================
A vital piece of information is missing in the Xmas Day incident.
How did this guy obtain a US VISA IN THE FIRST PLACE to enter the USA?
(I’m amazed no one has even mentioned this on ANY news outlet).
As a foreign national, he would have had to visit a US Consulate “somewhere”, supposedly been vetted by those responsible for issuing entry visas and then been denied or issued such a document.
All this long before he boarded Flight 253
Cherchez “le Visa” story and you’ll find the trail of incompetence continues to dominate our governments anit-terrorist efforts worldwide.
“This is the lesson the attack on Northwest Airlines Flight 253 teaches those who are willing to listen, and it’s one that President Obama needs to hear”
Shhhhh. He’s shaping his shot.
“This is about human freedom and liberty and there will be a day when it will come to blows. Who is on the side of our freedoms? We shall see …..
And many know this. Why else the massive uptick in gun and ammo sales?
Hopefully the election in 2010 can delay the complete erosion of our freedoms, but only if every liberty-loving American goes to polls and votes AGAINST every Democrat.
America Betrayed: Jihadists are winning because of pro-Islam Western leaders. U.S. Airport Security Deliberately and Shockingly Destroyed for Islam:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com
Controversial Muslim group
gets VIP airport security tour
Feds show CAIR latest screening steps,
sensitive counterterrorism procedures
August 18, 2006
The Department of Homeland Security
took a Muslim group with known past ties to terror organizations on a VIP tour of security operations at the nation’s busiest airport at the same time British authorities were working to break up a plot to blow up U.S. airlines.
On June 21, a senior DHS official from Washington personally guided Muslim officials from the Council on American-Islamic Relations on a behind-the-scenes tour of Customs screening operations at O’Hare International Airport in response to CAIR complaints that Muslim travelers were being unfairly delayed as they entered the U.S. from abroad.
CAIR is a spin-off of the Islamic Association for Palestine, identified by two former FBI counterterrorism chiefs as a “front group” for the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas.
Several CAIR leaders have been convicted on terror-related charges.
During the airport tour, CAIR was taken on a walk through the point-of-entry, Customs stations, secondary screening and interview rooms. In addition, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agents were asked to describe for CAIR representatives various features of the high-risk passenger lookout system.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51573
Council on American-Islamic Relations: “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” – Omar Ahmad (CAIR co-founder).
Addressing a youth session at the 1999 Islamic Association for Palestine’s annual convention in Chicago, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) founder Omar Ahmad praised suicide bombers who “kill themselves for Islam,”
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52184
Why was the humanity-hater not placed on a U.S. No Fly List? That’s not hard to figure out. Washington do not regard Muslim terrorists as the enemy. Patriotic, peaceful Americans – pro-lifers, tea party attendees, returning war veterans who risked their lives for America have been listed as the ones to watch out for.
Muslim terrorist training camps that teach murder of non-Muslims and violent Islamic conquest of America are allowed. God help America.
worldnetdaily.com
‘Chilling’ new video: How to slit throats
Jihad maneuvers taught at New York compound
December 15, 2009
By Bob Unruh
© 2009 WorldNetDaily
A new video released by the Christian Action Network shows Muslim women at a compound in New York state practicing throat-slitting techniques and assault weapons attacks.
The video was distributed by the makers of the movie “Homegrown Jihad: The Terrorist Camps Around the U.S.,” which documents how a jihadist group has developed dozens of training camps across the nation.
WND reported at the time how Jamaat ul-Fuqra has built 35 compounds – mostly in the northeastern corridor of the U.S.
…The U.S. State Department’s 1998 “Patterns of Global Terrorism” report notes the organization “seeks to purify Islam through violence.”
The report continued, “Members have purchased isolated rural compounds in North America to live communally, practice their faith and insulate themselves from Western culture. Fuqra members have attacked a variety of targets that they view as enemies of Islam.”
CAN, led by Martin Mawyer, has researched Muslims of America for years and has provided its video to the FBI, State Department and Homeland Security. To date, there has been no response from the government, the group said.
…”Gilani has stated he is preparing his members to the Soldiers of Allah, and he’s set up the most advanced guerrilla warfare training camps,” he said.
The organization’s “Homegrown Jihad” video includes a chilling scene of Jamaat ul-Fuqra’s leader Sheikh Mubarak Gilani telling followers to “act like you’re his friend. Then kill him.”
According to the Religion of Peace website, there have been more than 250 jihad attacks by Muslims around the globe – including two inside the U.S. – in just the last two months.The death toll from the attacks has surpassed 1,400, the report says.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=119087
New MOA Terror Training Video Exposed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebg6AFylios&feature=player_embedded
34. Now and Then.
“I think I’ve outgrown all of you. I’m operating on an different, higher plane.”
A clarification by the Handsome Mixed European – American Mystical Turkey With a Touch of Black.
“If it’s me, well I see a couple bales of Northern Sensimilla, a stack of Mad Magazines, and a stripper named Rose I picked up from the local jiggle bar. Hi, Rose. Yeah, in a minute. First I gotta debug this data base.”
And Then the results of a Modern Liberal education with bales of enhancement –
“… weather held on forward lurking remote controls of synaptic pleasure opportunities set aside by the Marxist prototypical terriers – Scottish or not!!!!! – by others who would be themselves with one another. But nooooooooooooooo!”
Now and Then Dec 15, 2009 – 5:46 pm
“What guise now? What snares await?” “ffffffffffffffffftt” The sound of a baster finding the target.
Why isn’t Mr. President popular anymore? Why? Can you explain this? Anvil Johnson would disown him too.
Happy New Year, “dazzling intellect”. “Amen. Brother.” How’s Rosie O’Donnell?
Gobble gobble Goebbels!
Since the TSA is determined to protect you from bomb-toting toddlers, grannies and Christians, and single these groups out for extra screening and pat-downs, it is time to wake up to the fact that the government, no matter if a republican (Bush) or a Democrat (Obama) is in power, could care less about your life. So when the plane is getting ready for takeoff, take note of the locations of emergency exits and Muslim men. Damn political correctness.
Maneta (transportation secy under Bush): “there is no circumstance under which we would profile.”
Napolitano: “the system worked”.
Take Napo at her word: the system is designed to make your travel experience miserable, but allow known jihadists to waltz aboard airplanes without a second look. The system worked!
32. New Class Traitor – Here is an article on the El Al approach to airline security, and why it succeeds where others fail:
http://spinstrangenesscharm.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/airline-security-why-is-el-al-different-from-others/
Compare what Israel has that America does not have and therein lies their motivation. Israel has death. Like a constant dripping faucet…death, death and more death. Death in the streets and neighborhoods. Death of the “Infidels and enemies of Allah” since none are innoncent outside of their razor thin theology.
After 9/11 it is painfully obvious that killing 3000 Americans evey 10 years or so will not motivate the voting public toward right thinking. Sadly, I’m afraid, the only way to reverse this mindset is for Americans to see what Israel sees everyday, week and month… death, death and more death! It seems this also fits the stated mission of our murderous enemy.
“” … there (are many) important lesson(s) to be learned from the failed terrorist attack on (our nation) … “”
And only the very first of them is that the terrorist attack DID NOT FAIL!
The successful attack was unsuccessful ONLY because the successful terrorist’s bomb was faulty.
And successful to the Power of maybe 1000 for the insight it has already given way too many the world’s quite evil into the vacant lots that pass for the “minds” of 0zero and his Gang’s uniformly-moronic arse-coverers.
And potentially incalculably successful once the world’s Absolutely Most Evil: the fascistic ACLU and its Axis of Most Evil domestic terrorist-organization allies (ABA, Trial Lawyers, fiat “judges” et al) and other “Democrats;” begin the process of Discovery that will lead to the December 25 illegal enemy combatant (AKA “the suspect”) being either acquitted or simply — because of what the hapless gutless, arse-covering, “Democratic” potty-activist bureaucrats who nowadays own operate and control every agency call, “security fears” — not prosecuted to the extent of what these post-any-visible-Intact-American-Male/post-Constitution days as “the law.”
“… failed terrorist attack?”
My ars*, it was!
Brian Richard Allen
Lost Angels – Califobambicated 90028
And the Far Abroad
Remember how the Libs screamed and hollered at the way Bush reacted to 9/11? Their silence now is deafening.
“Experts say an aggressive response from passengers has become the common response”
COMMON response? How common are these things? But yes – an aggressive response is the logical lesson to learn from 9/11. Not because it’s a “posture” or a deterrent, but because the rules of the game have changed. Back in the PLO/Libyan days, fighting back was a poor tactic – because they’d kill you if you did, but probably let you live if you didn’t (either that, or the bomb was in the cargo hold and there was nothing you could do anyway). After 9/11, it appears more likely that they’ll kill you regardless of what you do – so your best bet is to storm the guy. Politics is irrelevant to the situation.
Apart from that, you’re basically confusing a tactical response with a strategic one. The passengers took down a guy who chose to attack them (and good for them). Obama’s main problem is to try to stop them choosing to attack in the first place. Apparently that’s the best way to prevent attacks – because watch lists seem to be pretty useless (surprise, surprise).
The most laughable implied claim here is that bush’s “tough” stand was more effective – the “proof” being that there were no terrorist attacks on america after 9/11. The problem, of course, is that’s factually incorrect (but don’t let that stop you from believing it).
“” …. But when a terrorist attack is “publicly thwarted,” as was Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab’s “attempt” to ignite the incendiary material … “”
“Publicly thwarted??”
Rubbish.
(Not least in that it has self-anointed elitist pundits calling it a “failure”) Farouk Abdulmutallab successfully penetrated our puny “defenses” and executed a successful attack against the united States of America.
The only failure was the bomb-maker’s — and that means our nation was lucky — not that the Cli’ton/Gorelicker-Walled-off, Napolitano/0zero “managed,” “Democratic” potty-activist owned, operated and controlled stumble-bum security services were successful — and/or may be depended upon.
B A – L A – CA — and The Far Away
“Mathew” says the fact there were no terrorist attacks in America between September 11 2001 and January 20, 2009 is what “Mathew” calls “‘factually’ incorrect.”
OK then, Mathew, list the successful ones for us willyah??
There’s a good little “Democrat.”
B A – L A – CA — and the Very Far Away
Meryl @67 – you’re so right. I’ve thought that for ages.
“I will stand with the Muslims.” What more does one need to hear?
Still, one has heard reams more. Enough to know without a doubt that Obama considers most of us the true enemy, and that doesn’t even have much to do with religion.
Now and Then:
“I’m operating on an different, higher plane.”
Hopefully one where they won’t check the underwear.
Brian Richard Allen:
“OK then, Mathew, list the successful ones for us willyah??”
The D.C. sniper(s), 2001 anthrax attacks, the columbine shooting, virginia tech shooting, the guy who opened fire at the el al counter at LAX in 2002, various IEDs aimed at consulates and a recruiting office in new york, the assassination of dr tiller, various pipe-bomb attacks by mail and against a court-house in california, radical environmentalists fire-bombing random mansions in california and at least one personal attack on an individual involved in biomedical research, a shooting attack on one church deemed “too liberal”, and the burning of sarah palin’s church in alaska (obviously for different reasons, but not necessarily perpetrated by a liberal).
And that’s just the successful ones. The unsuccessful ones (which includes this latest) are probably more numerous. And all since the “war on terror” tough-stand began.
Normally I wouldn’t have considered some of these to be terrorism (and they’re not, according to the US criminal code), but since the fort-hood shooting, the definition of terrorism has (apparently) been broadened so that I can include shooting sprees motivated by ideology and revenge/anger – so columbine and virginia tech now count as terrorism (hey – if you don’t like it, take it up with o’reilly and dana perino).
Back to you.
Alana:
“without a doubt that Obama considers most of us the true enemy”
Most americans voted for him (and they will again in a couple of years’ time). So I’m betting he doesn’t consider most americans to be the “true enemy” at all.
“Let’s begin by agreeing that every successful terrorist attack against the United States doubles as a recruitment video for rabid jihadists”
Much less so than a random bombing attack on some irrelevant village somewhere in response. Attacking iran over nukes would be a recruiting bonanza, abu ghraib was a recruiting bonanza, a stupid military response to this latest would be a recruiting bonanza. Why? Because muslims would see it (perhaps correctly) as an arrogant disregard for non-american life, and another episode of the west getting its way with impunity. Guess what that will achieve.
Just prosecuting the guy in an open, fair trial is by far the best response – in the meantime, let the secret squirrels work out where he came from, and why.
Rachel:
“Remember how the Libs screamed and hollered at the way Bush reacted to 9/11?”
Initially, no. In fact, even the muslim world was generally on-side with the US – the attack having been massive and tragic.
It was only when bush started to integrate the early manifestations of his later apparent incompetence that “liberals” realized that he was going to milk the situation to advance an agenda that he’d carried with him into office (without even once mentioning it to oprah).
Knock off the straw-man claims. Liberals want to see this guy brought to justice and effective (and less pointless) security measures put in place. Neo-cons want to see some random village in yemen vaporized because they’re convinced the world is laughing at them. There’s a difference between those two responses.
“In fact, even the muslim world was generally on-side with the US”
are you talking about the muslims dancing in the streets with guns in the middle east or the ones partying indoor in some muslim communities in europe?
because I always heard about the blaming america crowd type of muslim.
Nowadays in many muslim areas (of course all no go areas for infidels) in big european cities sept 11 is a day of celebration. I have seen video reports.
I guess half of them were plainly happy, the rest were just scared of a possible backlash (because that’s how their brain works), but genuinely sorry and taking responsibility because of their mosques, no way.
“Much less so than a random bombing attack on some irrelevant village somewhere in response. Attacking iran over nukes would be a recruiting bonanza, abu ghraib was a recruiting bonanza, a stupid military response to this latest would be a recruiting bonanza. Why? Because muslims would see it (perhaps correctly) as an arrogant disregard for non-american life, and another episode of the west getting its way with impunity. Guess what that will achieve.”
so mathew
what should be our attitude towards the complete disgregard of rights of non-muslim minorities in their countries?
why no christian goes there to bomb some pizza restaurant considering all the non-muslim people kidnapped, raped, killed in Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, thailand and many others?
I don’t understand why people like yourself give for granted that they can act like the mafia, performing retailation for any real or perceived office for some god given right while I am 200% sure you would condemn the same behaviour if done by the western world?
Isn’t it a little racist from your part to expect a standard from ‘us’ and lowering the standard to neanderthals for ‘them’?
Don’t you see the big flaw in your theory? Or are you only trying to be sophisticated in your ‘any 3rd world group or people are by definition better than evil westerners’ attitude?
“the burning of sarah palin’s church in alaska (obviously for different reasons, but not necessarily perpetrated by a liberal).”
LOL, of course, matthew, your breed cannot do such a thing, it was obviously a right winger.
LOL, you lost any credibility. If you had any in the first place. You are just an obamatron with poor knowledge of everything.
Oh and the rest of your list is bogus, the south korean guy killing spree was never called terrorism.
Just because somebody is successful in killing a dozen is not necessarily terrorism.
Are you calling all the serial killers action terrorism too?
You don’t even know the meaning of the words you are using. That’s why you vote for obama.
susan:
“are you talking about the muslims dancing in the streets with guns in the middle east or the ones partying indoor in some muslim communities in europe?”
Obviously not. And I’m also not talking about the dodgy rent-a-crowd footage cooked up by CNN in palestine. Like it or not, the US has enemies – I’d wager that not all of the cheering came from muslims. But the leaders of most significant muslim groups and states publicly condemned the attacks. Heck, there’s even a bizarre claim about 5 israelis taking happy-snaps of each other with the burning WTC as backdrop – I’m pretty sure they didn’t reflect the opinion of many jews.
susan:
“LOL, of course, matthew, your breed cannot do such a thing, it was obviously a right winger”
The church was attacked after the election – during the conservative backlash against sarah. By that time, obama supporters were too busy cheering and dancing to be bothered harboring a grudge against the rep candidates or their church. It’s obviously possible that a loony lefty did it, but I think it’s just as possible that it was a wingnut.
“LOL, you lost any credibility. If you had any in the first place. You are just an obamatron with poor knowledge of everything”
If you say so.
“Oh and the rest of your list is bogus, the south korean guy killing spree was never called terrorism.”
Then lets just concentrate on the ones that WERE called terrorism then – there are still a few in that list
“Just because somebody is successful in killing a dozen is not necessarily terrorism”
I agree.
“Are you calling all the serial killers action terrorism too?”
No, I don’t. But I don’t think the fort hood shooting was terrorism (based on the currently available evidence). If you think it was, then you have to accept the examples I gave. You can’t have it both ways.
“You don’t even know the meaning of the words you are using”
Actually, I do. Terrorism means something – it’s not just about violence. Unless it’s politically motivated, with the objective of coercing a population or government to alter its policies, then it’s not terrorism. Unfortunately that’s not how the media understands it (or even most public officials) – so they broaden the definition. If fort hood was a terrorist attack because just it was ideologically motivated, then so were columbine and virginia tech.
susan:
“what should be our attitude towards the complete disgregard of rights of non-muslim minorities in their countries?”
Condemn it, obviously. Put pressure on muslim countries to improve their civil and human rights. What do you think our attitude should be?
“why no christian goes there to bomb some pizza restaurant”
Because christians, or at least their governments, know better. Bombing pizza restaurants isn’t productive.
“considering all the non-muslim people kidnapped, raped, killed in Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, thailand and many others?”
Thailand?
“I don’t understand why people like yourself give for granted that they can act like the mafia, performing retailation for any real or perceived office for some god given right”
Er … who says I do? I’m just pointing out the known down side of military action. Retaliation against real offenses is a fact of life – and imagined offenses will do just as well for people who don’t know any better.
“Isn’t it a little racist from your part to expect a standard from ‘us’ and lowering the standard to neanderthals for ‘them’?”
Sheesh. Straw man alert.
“Don’t you see the big flaw in your theory?”
I don’t think it’s a theory – it’s an observation.
“Or are you only trying to be sophisticated in your ‘any 3rd world group or people are by definition better than evil westerners’ attitude?”
Now you’re just making stuff up.
34@Now and Then
You have to forgive ETAB who log ago drank the kool aide, swallowed the blue pill and stored Rushed/Limbo quotes in his bye-bull. He longs for a Dick/Turd Blossom candidacy in 2012.
“Obviously not. And I’m also not talking about the dodgy rent-a-crowd footage cooked up by CNN in palestine. Like it or not, the US has enemies – I’d wager that not all of the cheering came from muslims.”
of course, also the leftists like yourself were happy. I wasan’t wasting my time pointing out the obvious. Slamming Palin and ruining a hated church, the perfect match for leftists.
“But the leaders of most significant muslim groups and states publicly condemned the attacks. ”
lol, because it NEVER happened that muslim leaders were talking from both sides of the mouth, NEVER NEVER NEVER.
Saddam Hussein stated he was happy and it was well deserved for the USA. The others were simply lying.
“The church was attacked after the election – during the conservative backlash against sarah. By that time, obama supporters were too busy cheering and dancing to be bothered harboring a grudge against the rep candidates or their church. It’s obviously possible that a loony lefty did it, but I think it’s just as possible that it was a wingnut.”
yes, it’s called projection, you accuse others of things you are perfectly capable of doing.
The left never stopped harboring a grudge for palin a single day. The people with ads “palin is a w***e” were your friends matthews, no wingnut will ever waste his precious time doing something like that.
But it’s obviously projection. You leftiests are the scum of the earth and you project your despicable behaviour on others.
I am not sure a good mental institution can solve your problem.
“No, I don’t. But I don’t think the fort hood shooting was terrorism (based on the currently available evidence). If you think it was, then you have to accept the examples I gave. You can’t have it both ways.”
the guy was a self proclaimed soldier of allah, islam is a political ideology, not a religion. This is the political motivation. The columbine? were those kids politically motivated? did they know what politics were? To me they were no different than you leftists when you go set the city on fire during the G8.
“Condemn it, obviously. Put pressure on muslim countries to improve their civil and human rights. What do you think our attitude should be?”
since words, dialogue, articles and empty words like yours sorted ZERO effect (as it has been proven for years), because those people do not share our same values, including the basic human golden rule, don’t do to others what you wouldn’t like to be done on yourself, I would apply total reciprocation. They should be treated exactly like non-muslims are treated in their countries. As second class citizens denied of many rights.
Either they would start to understand (very unlikely) or leave (possible) or at least we wouldn’t have to put up with their constant and irrational demands.
But of course people like yourself and the rest of stupid do gooers would NEVER allow that. We are forced to keep one standard while you allow them to keep a much lower one. Unfortunately you are extremely ignorant of what happens in every single muslim majority country against the muslim population so it’s rather pointless to talk to you.
…
continued from above
“Thailand?”
yes, you are extremely ignorant in your rose tinted view of the world, Thailand (but I could have used MANY other places as examples) currently has a muslim insurgence in an area called Pattania which is unfortunately muslims ridden.
Here are some articles that explains how religion of peace is beheading thai buddist because the land is allah land and must belong to muslims only.
(there is a filter for link posting)
A quote
“I have received some additional info on these beheading in Thailand from Best Gore reader Annaleigh. Annaleigh currently lives in Bangkok and says these beheadings took place in southern Thailand along the way to Pattaya. Muslim separatists have been performing their atrocities there for a while and are impossible to control. The soldiers who were captured were riding out of the village and got ambushed by these Muslim separatists. They were shot and subsequently beheaded. Their headless bodies were then dragged across into the river to keep them from view.”
so yes, the religion of peace operates in many countries of which people like yourself are totally ignorant.
Isn’t it strange that you on the left always bound on telling others how uneducated they are, are the first to be extremely ignorant.
You selectively ignore what doesn’t fit your narrative, which is that islam is a religion like the others, possibly less dangerous than mormonism. After all the main danger right now are retired veterans and republicans right? they even set Palin’s church on fire.
Keep your head firmly under the sand matthew, the real world can be too much too handle for simple minded like yourself.
“I’m just pointing out the known down side of military action. Retaliation against real offenses is a fact of life – and imagined offenses will do just as well for people who don’t know any better.”
as well as there are many reitaliation against PERCEIVED offences there have been cases of NO reitaliation against REAL OFFENCES, usually when decent wester countries were involved. So what you claim to be a rule, in reality it is not. Very ignorant of hystory. There was no reaction when russia invaded Hungary or poland or prague, there was no reaction from the italian government when yogoslavian tito’s army murdered and kicked out from italian lands (dalmazia) innocent people.
So your assumption is hystorically wrong. Only the people who are naturally bound on violence and hatred perform reitaliation for real or PERCEIVED offences.
“I don’t think it’s a theory – it’s an observation.”
your observations born out of fat ignorance do not belong to any intelligent discussion.
Educate yourself before making stuff up
There is currently muslim ‘insurgence’ in Mindanao, philippines, as well as all the other known hot areas of the world (chechenya, china xinjiang, sudan, kashmir)
they all follow the same pattern, muslims outnumber the local population, they demand sharia law and when the government doesn’t comply they start guerrilla and beheadings. It is NOT reitaliation, it is simply the muslims being unable to co exists with any other kind of people (jews, buddists, christians, animists).
There is not a single muslim majority country that doesn’t perform some routine harassment on its non-muslim population, with the result of effectively driving OUT the few non muslims present. NOT A SINGLE ONE.
The stupid lefty idea that it won’t happen in our soil (france, UK, germany, USA, norway etc) is naive, stupid and deeply ignorant.
Keep your head FIRMY under the sand, I am sure that people like yourself will be very quick in converting and join the opposite side out of fear, convenience and self loathing.
You are part of the problem, not of the solution.
Wasn’t the “citizen” first to jump the bomber, and be burned in the process, a citizen of the Netherlands?
susan:
“of course, also the leftists like yourself were happy”
Rubbish. Think about what you’re actually saying, please. Think about what you’re actually accusing “leftists” of. New york is basically “leftist central” as far as the US goes. It’s the heartland of the hillary clintons of the world. Why would leftists be specifically pleased about an attack on new york?
“Slamming Palin and ruining a hated church, the perfect match for leftists”
But in december of 2008, most of that palin-slamming was coming from sections of the right, because they (incorrectly) believed that she’d lost them the election. That “went rogue” comment and the leaks about her didn’t come from the left. The left was just laughing its pants off and posting links to the criticism. I’m sorry if it’s inconvenient – but it is a fact.
“lol, because it NEVER happened that muslim leaders were talking from both sides of the mouth, NEVER NEVER NEVER”
If you’re going to ignore evidence then you can claim anything you want. Do you also think the public shows of solidarity in iran and the candle-ceremony were staged? Man, they must be devious, those muzzies.
“Saddam Hussein stated he was happy and it was well deserved for the USA. The others were simply lying”
Saddam hussein had some pretty rational reasons to not like the US. That had nothing to do with religion.
“yes, it’s called projection, you accuse others of things you are perfectly capable of doing”
I’m capable of burning a church? Sheesh. If you bother to pay attention, you’ll find that wingnuts are most definitely capable of vandalism and violence – so I’m not even sure why you think that claim is sensible.
“wingnut will ever waste his precious time doing something like that”
Then I can only assume you don’t read the papers. Because wingnuts were definitely swinging at palin.
“I am not sure a good mental institution can solve your problem”
It’s all about playing the ball for you, isn’t it?
“the guy was a self proclaimed soldier of allah, islam is a political ideology, not a religion. This is the political motivation”
And you don’t think christianity is a political ideology? Interesting. But like I said – just having an ideology is not sufficient to make it terrorism. Just go read the US criminal code, section 2331. Here’s a link: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/113B/2331
“were those kids politically motivated? did they know what politics were?”
Someone aptly described that attack as a “national rorschach test” – people see in it whatever they want to. There’s also been way more rumor than fact in the reporting (not entirely unlike the fort hoot shooting in the first few days). It seems likely that the two were motivated by nazi-like ideas of superiority, they wrote directly about the waco incident and the oklahoma city bombing, and they definitely had a (bogus) grievance. The attack was extensively planned, including booby-traps for the police to find. If their plans had WORKED, they’d have probably destroyed a building (I’m so glad that amateur terrorists don’t understand the importance of extensive testing). Some people have claimed that one was just a wayward depressive and the other was a psychopath – but that doesn’t really answer the WHY. There are lots of depressives and psychopaths, but most of them don’t choose to do something like that. But did they have an ideology? Hell yes – they wrote about it extensively. Where they attacking symbols? Yep. Was the attacked designed to grab attention and send some sort of message? Absolutely. Was it a name-brand political movement? No.
“To me they were no different than you leftists when you go set the city on fire during the G8″
Nup. Wasn’t me. I secretly suspect that most of those nuts are just violent thugs looking for a convenient excuse. Soccer hooligans have to travel further these days to get their jollies. I’m also a bit surprised that people only project “leftist” politics onto those guys – opposition to global organizations (like the WTO – an UN body) is a feature of the right these days. Scratch a few of those protesters and I suspect they’ll bleed nationalism.
“We are forced to keep one standard while you allow them to keep a much lower one.”
But you’re ALSO allowing them to keep “their” lower standard. You’re not doing anything about that. You’re proposing to just take revenge on people who’ve chosen to leave that life behind and move somewhere better. That’s like oppressing puritans because they’re british. The situation in nut-job countries like saudi arabia is the result of ignorance and thuggish backward politics, not just religion. If that weren’t the case, then muslim-majority countries like indonesia and turkey would be the same – and they’re not.
“Unfortunately you are extremely ignorant of what happens in every single muslim majority country”
You keep saying that, but it’s just an assumption and not relevant. Just give us your facts and your argument – if that’s convincing, then it doesn’t really matter what I think.
The goverment can’t protect us from terrorists. Now they are going to take over health care. Think about it, people, we will get blown up & then we’ll get shabby medical treatment.
Sulla:
“Wasn’t the “citizen” first to jump the bomber, and be burned in the process, a citizen of the Netherlands?”
Clearly, you hate freedom.
“Rubbish. Think about what you’re actually saying, please. Think about what you’re actually accusing “leftists” of. New york is basically “leftist central” as far as the US goes. It’s the heartland of the hillary clintons of the world. Why would leftists be specifically pleased about an attack on new york?”
I live in europe in a country that has always been a strong ally of USA (a lot more than france or germany) and leftists in my country (both intellectuals and normal people) were saying that the usa deserved that.
I cannot imagine what they said in countries that are NOT USA’s natural allies.
All around the USA leftists like yourself are always in search of reasons to do some self-loathing. The number of hollywood empty heads, journalists, politicians and talking heads strongly placed in the left department have used the acts of terrorism for years to blame american wealth, power, politics, values.
What is the sacrifice of some leftists in new york if it proves their point? You were the people who wished a total disaster on New ORleans so you could have one more reason to loathe Bush.
It’s as simple as that. I was by chance nearby a leftist rally in my country that ended up in a bonfire. Incidentally the parked car of a prominent leftist mayor of a nearby town was burned to the ground. But he is a leftist, those guys were ‘his people’ so he was happy to sacrifice his car for the ’cause’.
Don’t blame me for the mental problems of you leftists.
“But in december of 2008, most of that palin-slamming was coming from sections of the right, because they (incorrectly) believed that she’d lost them the election. ”
I see your desperation in trying to show evidence in an act that has no successful investigation on. Nobody was charged so you want to make believe it could have been anybody.
How many atheists are on the left? the majority. No religious or semi religious people would do something to a church to make a point.
It’s again you leftists who behave this way. Stop your silly projection. And if you intellectually superior leftists (LOL) were so laughing off palin why you were around with intelligent ads like “palin is a *****”. That shows all the superior intellect of your leftists.
“If you’re going to ignore evidence then you can claim anything you want. Do you also think the public shows of solidarity in iran and the candle-ceremony were staged? ”
If you leftists claim obama possess superior intellect in spite of not releasing his college records, I guess pigs fly and the tooth fairy really exists.
Oh you forgot Arafat donating blood for 9-11 victims. How poetic, how sincere. And how many idiots like yourself falling for it.
“Saddam hussein had some pretty rational reasons to not like the US. That had nothing to do with religion. ”
You stated that all the leaders of the muslim world showed solidarity, I gave you evidence that you said a lie. If he did it for reasons that had nothing to do with his cult is not the point. However I found a collection of Saddam quotes and from his own mouth he does bring his cult into the picture. You are not very smart matthew, you should know that dictators are KNOWN to use religion when it suits them. Even Lenin and Stalin did it.
This was his charitable quote
The Attacks of September 11
“The United States reaps the thorns its rulers have planted in the world.”
Saddam Hussein, September 12, 2001
“[September 11 was] God’s punishment.”
Al-Iktisadi, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)
So once again, Matthew, you prove to be ignorant and not very bright.
Saddam used religion when it suited him, as well as islam is used in Turkey despite the claim that they are ‘secular’. There is nothing secular in islam and everybody knows it, including their rulers.
“I’m capable of burning a church? Sheesh. If you bother to pay attention, you’ll find that wingnuts are most definitely capable of vandalism and violence – so I’m not even sure why you think that claim is sensible.”
on a church?
According to your distorted and ignorant logic, ‘wingnuts’ cling to guns and religion. So what is the chance of burning up a church?
On the other hand, look at how you leftists burn down everything in sight during the G8, and it’s all leftists. It’s all communists organizations.
“Then I can only assume you don’t read the papers. Because wingnuts were definitely swinging at palin.”
yeah, sure. How’s the view from your mental institution?
I read the papers more than you, “the daily comrade” that you read is not a reputable source of information.
“And you don’t think christianity is a political ideology? ”
your mental capability is too limited to understand some basic facts. But again, you are a leftist.
“Someone aptly described that attack as a “national rorschach test” – people see in it whatever they want to. ”
yes bla bla bla, like saying palin’s church has been damaged by somebody from the republican area.
Translated: you are desperate and you would call ‘terrorism’ even your neighbour running over your cat. Paranoia is the word. Many leftists who grew up in the echo chamber of their delusions are like that.
“Nup. Wasn’t me. I secretly suspect that most of those nuts are just violent thugs looking for a convenient excuse.”
Leftists are violent thugs. They walk around with communists symbols, che guevara Tshirts, but I can understand that sharing their same political view is a shame and you need to stay in denial.
In the majority of civilized countries (including the UK which I believe is -unfortunately for them- your hometown) soccer hooligans are monitored, therefore if they were ‘soccer fans’ gone mad we would have known.
Instead it’s just leftists.
“But you’re ALSO allowing them to keep “their” lower standard. You’re not doing anything about that. You’re proposing to just take revenge on people who’ve chosen to leave that life behind and move somewhere better.”
It wouldn’t be ‘lowering our standard’ because it would be applied ONLY to those immigrants. It’s not revenge since the majority of those people absolutely believe that non-muslims in their countries are farly treated.
Not only that. After the swiss minaret ban, a muslim commentator from north africa said that if you did the same referendum in Egypt or any other muslim country you’d get the same result, so where is the data that you are using to say ‘they are leaving that life behind’?
40% of british born muslims who wish to have sharia law in the UK is not a small number (considering the others are lying).
How would you react if 40% of germans wished to have nazism back?
“The situation in nut-job countries like saudi arabia is the result of ignorance and thuggish backward politics, not just religion. If that weren’t the case, then muslim-majority countries like indonesia and turkey would be the same – and they’re not. ”
they are. Churches are severely restricted.
I will post in a later thread all the links about buddhist temples demolished in indonesia, christian girls beheaded in indonesia, christian priests murdered in turkey. All having to do with islam and its supremacy on a land. In Morocco it is forbidden by law to translate and sell the bible. So if you find a bible on sale, it’s probably in english. Did you know that matthew? In the maldives you cannot become citizen if you are not muslim. This has nothing to do with backwardness or poverty.
I dont like to spend my holidays educating ignorant people like yourself. I have better things to do but I gladly do it for other (more intelligent than you) people who might come across to this material.
So ONCE AGAIN matthew you are wrong, you lie and you are in total denial.
Unlike yourself who ‘claim’ about an imaginary republican burning down sarah palin’s church, I bring EVIDENCE to my claims. You fail to do it.
“You keep saying that, but it’s just an assumption and not relevant. Just give us your facts and your argument”
Yesterday I couldn’t post without removing the link I provided for the islamic violence in thailand. I don’t know if it was a filter problem or a server problem. I am not very happy when after typing pages of stuff I cannot post it so I am putting all the links later.
But unlike yourself, I BROUGHT FACTS that you smartly skipped because it’s all FACTS that DENY your statements.
quotes for the previous post
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/iraq/sadquots.htm
Here you have the 9-11 saddam quotes I wrote AND many other quotes that talk about islam, jihad.
“[America] will not be excluded from the operations and explosions of the Arab and Muslim mujahidin and all the honest strugglers in the world.”
Iraq News Agency, January 30, 1991 (State-controlled)
U.S.S. Cole Bombing, October 12, 2000
“[Iraqis] should intensify struggle and jihad in all fields and by all means…”
Iraq TV, October 22, 2000 (State-controlled)
Operation Desert Fox, December 1998
“If [other Arab nations] persist on pursuing their wrongful path, then we should — or rather we must — place the swords of jihad on their necks…”
Saddam Hussein, January 5, 1999
here’s an extra quote
As Saddam Hussein put it on Iraqi TV on March 4, 2002:
“We are glad of the Istishhadiyyah [suicide] and heroic spirit of the Palestinian people. By Allah, what the Palestinian people does is beyond my expectations…” 9
This is a nonpartisan report on religious freedom worldwide. It brings in detail parts of the constitution of countries and QUOTES FACTS that happens in the country
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/index.htm
So you say indonesia and turkey are ‘normal’ muslim countries where such things do not exists.
Let’s see.
Indonesia
In some cases, however, the Government tolerated discrimination against and the abuse of religious groups by private actors and failed to punish perpetrators, although the Government prevented several vigilante actions during Ramadan. Aceh remained the only province authorized to implement Islamic law (Shari’a), although non-Muslims in the province are exempted from Shari’a. [b]Many local governments outside of Aceh maintained laws with elements of Shari’a that abrogated certain rights of women and religious minorities. Members of minority religious groups continued to experience some official discrimination in the form of administrative difficulties, often in the context of civil registration of marriages and births or the issuance of identity cards.
There were a number of reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious affiliation, belief, or practice. Some groups used violence and intimidation to forcibly shut at least nine churches and 12 Ahmadiyya mosques. Some of the churches remained closed and one Ahmadiyya mosque in Riau that was completely destroyed had not been rebuilt. Other mosques were reopened. Many perpetrators of past abuse against religious minorities were not brought to justice.
[/b]
The Constitution provides for freedom of religion and accords “all persons the right to worship according to their own religion or belief.” The Constitution states that “the nation is based upon belief in one supreme God.”
(I guess for you it’s all normal and accounts for ‘secular state’)
The Ministry of Religious Affairs extends official status to six religious groups: Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Confucianism. Unrecognized groups may register with the Ministry of Culture and Tourism as social organizations. [b]Although these groups have the right to establish a house of worship, obtain identity cards, and register marriages and births, they face administrative difficulties in doing so. In some cases these challenges make it more difficult for individuals to seek employment or enroll children in school.[/b]
(NOTE TO MATTHEW: isn’t this possibly the reason that barack soetero was listed as a muslim in his school in indonesia? because non-muslims face ‘difficulties’)
[b]Article 156 of the Criminal Code makes spreading hatred, heresy, and blasphemy punishable by up to five years in prison. Although the law applies to all officially recognized religions, the few cases in which it has been enforced have almost always involved blasphemy and heresy against Islam.[/b]
LOL, I guess it’s all fair in your view, matthew. They have anti hate speech but it’s all to protect islam. You can be blasphemous against Christ, Buddah and everybody else.
I guess it’s all still normal for you.
Multiple wives are also permitted
The 1974 Marriage Law makes polygamy illegal for civil servants, except in limited circumstances. Marriage law for Muslims draws from Shari’a and allows a man to have up to four wives, provided he is able to support each equally. For a man to take a second, third, or fourth wife, he must obtain court permission and the consent of the first wife; however, these conditions are not always required in practice. Many women reportedly encounter societal pressures that make permission difficult to refuse, and Islamic women’s groups remain divided over whether the system needs revision.
In divorce cases women often bear a heavier evidentiary burden than men, especially in the Islam-based family court system. The law requires the former husband to provide alimony or its equivalent, but no enforcement mechanism exists, and divorced women rarely receive such support
(I guess it’s all normal for you)
The Government bans proselytizing, arguing that such activity, especially in religiously diverse areas, could prove disruptive.
No restrictions exist on the publication of religious materials or the use of religious symbols; [b]however, the Government bans dissemination of these materials to persons of other religious groups.[/b]
On May 7, 2009, members of the Huria Kristen Batak Protestant (HKBP) congregation filed a lawsuit and appealed to the Bandung State Administrative Court to cancel a municipal order revoking their church permit. Although the congregation obtained a permit and began construction, the mayor revoked the permit on March 27, 2009, citing residential complaints. During construction, there were several unresolved attacks on the HKBP church, including one in October 2008.
In Bukkitinggi a ban on the celebration of Valentine’s Day in public venues such as hotels and restaurants remained in place. The ban was originally issued by the mayor in February 2008 because officials felt that Valentine’s Day was a Western tradition not compatible with Indonesian culture.
Men and women of different religions also continued to face obstacles to marrying and officially registering their marriages. Such couples had difficulty finding a religious official willing to perform the ceremony, which is required before registering a marriage. As a result, some persons converted in order to marry. Others traveled overseas, where they wed and then registered the marriage at an Indonesian embassy.
————
Ok I cannot post the whole thing, it’s 10 pages.
Every 2 or 3 lines its written that ‘members of religions that are not islam’ are not permitted to do this or that or face ‘difficulties’.
There is also listed a lot of attacks to churches, hindu temples.
I do remind you that in countries like indonesia, the hindu or buddhist pupulation is not “IMMIGRANTS” (like muslims in western lands) but LOCAL people who have been there for centuries. Same with Christians in Turkey. They were there BEFORE the muslims.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4387604.stm
Three Indonesian christian girls beheaded
On October 29, 2005, four Christian schoolgirls, all around 15 years of age, were walking home. Three were assaulted and beheaded by men using machetes near the Gebang Rejo area in Poso.
The three Islamist militants who masterminded and carried out the three murders in 2005 could have received the death penalty. Instead, they will spend between 14 and 20 years in prison. Hasanuddin, the brain behind the gruesome act, also wrote the notes left near the bodies in which he promised more Christian deaths.
about turkey I am not going to copy and paste pages and pages of information from that site again because everything is pretty similar to what happens in any other muslim majority country. After all a muslim doesn’t need sharia law to harass a non-muslim, but i will post a significant thing that nobody mentions that tells all about what you leftists deny about muslims.
Varlık Vergisi (“Wealth tax” or “Capital tax”) was a Turkish tax levied on the wealthy citizens of Turkey in 1942, with the stated aim of raising funds for the country’s defense in case of an eventual entry into World War II.
The bill for the one-off tax was proposed by the Şükrü Saracoğlu government, and the act was adopted by the Turkish parliament on November 11, 1942. It was imposed on the fixed assets, such as landed estates, building owners, real estate brokers, businesses and industrial enterprises of all citizens, including the minorities. However, those who suffered most severely were non-Muslims like the Jews, Greeks, Armenians and Levantines, who controlled a large portion of the economy.
This way Turkey could effectively purge the country of jews and christians. This thing happened when turkey was allegedly ‘secular’.
So as you can see, even in apparently secular countries, muslims can find a way to kick out and harass non muslims.
Also, about turkey
Murder of Father Santoro
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,411043,00.html
read how nonmuslims are harassed, killed and if the turks put out a ‘fake outrage’ is because they understand that all this negative news do not pose well for their EU entry. Basically they are indifferent and they even made up defaming stories about this single priest who had a church of 6-10 christians.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=5552
One month after the priest’s murder in Trabzon, the country has all but forgotten the case. There is no news about the trial of the young killer; the only matter the national mass media persists in bringing up is the charges of proselytism against Fr Andrea. The bishop of Anatolia: this is only a pretext to feed an anti-Christian and anti-western controversy.
On 28 February, the national daily newspaper Vatan, reported once again that Fr Andrea used to hand out dollars to invite youth to church. And once again, the bishop of Anatolia, Mgr Luigi Padovese has been forced to cry out: “If there really was such a great distribution of money by Fr Andrea – as the newspapers seem to claim – for proselytism, then how come baptisms in his parish of St Mary in Trabzon were not adding up? I knew my fidei donum priest well, and I exclude such a hypothesis. If he had done this, he would not have had ‘only’ three or four catechumens coming to his church. The truth is that proselytism is an alibi, which is being resorted to in order to refuel a controversy which is both anti-Christian and anti-western.”
So Mgr Padovese has had to appoint a Christian lawyer, a friend of his, to take legal action against newspapers that made these baseless accusations, managing to secure the publication of some corrections.
And still the authorities keep silent.
—————————-
Still everything is normal matthew?
I am done wasting my time, there is also the much praised brutal murder of the 3 armenian (christian) journalists, and how the murderers are national heroes.
When there are stupid boys like yourself that claim those countries are ‘normal’ I would like to send you all there to LIVE (don’t think atheists like yourself have an easy life), but being the cowards that you are, you would convert to islam out of fear.
The left and mohameddanism are bedfellows. Coward, totalitarian and murderous.
oh and little matthew, still about your projection problem about the inner violence of your political part
here are some reports on how there was real fear of black riots of obama had lost.
Police fear riots if Barack Obama loses US election
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/johnmccain/3248961/Police-fear-riots-if-Barack-Obama-loses-US-election.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/22/politics/horserace/entry4539330.shtml
Police Prepare For Possible Election Night Riots
And also
Enter Erica Jong, author of some note who tells in an interview of her correspondence with fellow liberals Jane Fonda, Ken Follet and Susan Cheever. She speaks of the Republican Mafia, and the violent rioting that would occur if John McCain wins the presidency. She claims that the left’s favorite voodoo dolls, Dick Cheney and George Bush, summoned troops back from Iraq to quell the violent uprising.
“If Obama loses it will spark the second American Civil War. Blood will run in the streets, believe me. And it’s not a coincidence that President Bush recalled soldiers from Iraq for Dick Cheney to lead against American citizens in the streets.”
So as proven, it’s you on the left, the violent ones who preach violence and live in violence.
McCain lost, no riots. But the left wanted blood on the streets.
Not McCain supporters.
After all the communist black panthers were intimidating voters in Pennsylvania. Things that doesn’t happen even in Mafia ridden sicily.
But this is the political group of people like yourself. Call yourself communitst, leftist, liberal, labourist, it makes no difference.
Where is your evidence that Palin’s church has been burned by a republican?
nothing, as for anything else you say, just your paranoid speculation
clean up the foam from your mouth, find a cure for your rabid fear of women. That’s why you are so sympathetic with muslims, you wish for them to take over in order to have a chance to find a submissive woman.
loser
Susan:
Sheesh. Could you, just for a minute, read something I actually wrote?
I think it’s possible that an angry conservative burned palin’s church – I base that on a fairly obvious assessment of who was genuinely most angry at her at the time, and the fact that conservative religious people (and groups) have in fact attacked other religious groups in recent times (even violently). I’m can’t PROVE it was “a republican”. I never said I could. I just said it was a credible possibility. You tried to claim that conservatives would never do such a thing – I reckon you’re ignoring reality. I never said loony lefties weren’t capable of violence – they quite obviously are. I just don’t think it’s necessarily obvious that a lefty was responsible for that attack, and we CAN only talk about probabilities because we don’t know who did it. I don’t see how erica jong is relevant, but I completely agree that the breathless predictions of assassination and violence if obama did/didn’t win the election were stupid, fanciful and quite disturbing, and I got seriously sick of hearing them.
“I live in europe in a country that has always been a strong ally of USA (a lot more than france or germany) and leftists in my country (both intellectuals and normal people) were saying that the usa deserved that.”
Gosh. You found people with an opinion. I suggest you have a look at some of the statements from the westboro baptist church, pat robertson and gerry fallwell – none of whom are lefties, and all of whom claimed that america deserved 9/11. People (on the right) who claim that 9/11 was an inevitable outcome to weak foreign policy aren’t actually all that different to people who claimed that it was an inevitable outcome to stupid foreign policy. Does that mean that all conservatives hate america? I think not.
“I cannot imagine what they said in countries that are NOT USA’s natural allies”
Oh, sure you can – you apparently imagined most of what I’ve said.
susan:
“You were the people who wished a total disaster on New ORleans so you could have one more reason to loathe Bush”
Google john hagee’s comments about katrina. You’re also making stuff up – the bush loathing didn’t exist until several days afterward, when it became apparent that there was no credible plan in place (i.e. not just no response, but actually no plan on HOW to respond). Nobody expected the FUBAR that came, so nobody had any reason to connect it to the president.
“No religious or semi religious people would do something to a church to make a point.”
Are you at all familiar with the recent history of northern ireland, or violence against black churches perpetrated by inevitably “christian” whites during the american civil rights struggle? Yes, absolutely, unhinged god-believers can be motivated to violently attack other religious institutions. Definitely not ALL religious people, or even very many, but enough to debunk your claim. But there IS generally peace (these days) between US religious congregations (excluding the absolute nut-jobs like WBC), but the 16th street baptist bombing was only 40-odd years ago.
“Unlike yourself who ‘claim’ about an imaginary republican burning down sarah palin’s church, I bring EVIDENCE to my claims. You fail to do it.”
Would linking to articles about strife in the republican party after the election really make a lot of difference? Do you really need me to show you stories about democrats being happy with the result?
“You stated that all the leaders of the muslim world showed solidarity”
No, I didn’t. I said the leaders of most significant states and groups did – a claim which remains correct.
“If he did it for reasons that had nothing to do with his cult is not the point”
Actually, I think that IS the point.
“So once again, Matthew, you prove to be ignorant and not very bright.”
And once again, you’ve failed to score a hit because you’re arguing with a straw man.
susan:
“your mental capability is too limited to understand some basic facts. But again, you are a leftist.”
You don’t think christianity is at least partly a political ideology? Really? I suggest you try reading some gospels, and maybe a bit about the reformation. Christianity has always been political – as much as any other religion.
“Translated: you are desperate and you would call ‘terrorism’ even your neighbour running over your cat”.
I think I laid out pretty clearly what I call terrorism. It happens to be the same definition used by the US criminal code.
“Leftists are violent thugs. They walk around with communists symbols, che guevara”
I don’t know where you hang out, but I haven’t personally seen a public communist symbol or a picture of che in, ooh, probably a decade. Admittedly, I don’t hang out with “leftists”. Are you sure you’re not making this up?
“It wouldn’t be ‘lowering our standard’ because it would be applied ONLY to those immigrants”
*sigh*. Again you’ve ignored what I wrote and substituted something ridiculous so you can rebut it. I didn’t say we would be lowering our standard – I said that your plan does nothing about THEIR standard.
“… said that if you did the same referendum in Egypt or any other muslim country you’d get the same result, so where is the data that you are using to say ‘they are leaving that life behind’?”
Um – if they’re still living in egypt then they haven’t left anything behind. Read it again.
susan:
“they are. Churches are severely restricted.”
No, they’re regulated, and that includes islam (particularly in turkey). On some level, religion is regulated in most countries – through tax exemptions and planning regulations. You just try building a muslim school in a predominantly christian neighborhood in, say, sydney and see how far you get (google “camden muslim school”).
Indonesia is a bit behind the ball on civil rights, but improving fairly rapidly and not at all like saudi arabia (which was what I actually wrote). Anyone who knows a bit about indonesia’s recent past has to be amazed by how far that country has come in 20-odd years (IMHO, they’re the best counter-example to the “all muslims are evil and backward” chant). The real anti-minority pressure in indonesia comes from private groups – the occasional ineffective prosecution of that has less to do with official policy and more to do with poor police resources, corruption, politics and a pretty dodgy judicial system. Your understanding of both countries is cartoonish, and built entirely on cherry-picked horror stories. Indonesia and turkey are not like saudi arabia.
“christian girls beheaded in indonesia, christian priests murdered in turkey. All having to do with islam and its supremacy on a land.”
For pete’s sake – get some facts into you. That attack on girls in sulawesi was appalling, and part of a multi-year violent sectarian fight that saw thousands of christians AND muslims killed, arrested and imprisoned – and human rights abuses on all sides. It had nothing to do with islam’s “supremacy” – it wasn’t even motivated by religion (although religion did define the two “sides”). It actually started as a drunken brawl:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1719964.stm
As for the ““palin is a w***e”, can you please give me some sort of link to that, because I’ve never heard of it (probably because I don’t watch fox news), so I can’t know who it was or when it appeared. You seem to be implying it came after the election. I’d like to check that.
susan:
Now – to the cases you mention in turkey. The priest was killed by a loon. The loon was arrested and he’s being prosecuted. Anti-christian comments in the press can be likened to the copious anti-muslim comments in the western (and particularly US) press. Influential US christian and political leaders (and elsewhere – there have been some doozies in australia, the UK and the netherlands) seem quite happy to make ridiculous claims about islam when the mood takes them, and the response they get is from the freedom-hating “lefty” media. The armenian journalists you mention were killed by nationalists who objected to references to the armenian genocide. Those murders weren’t about religion – they were about nationalism. And anti-armenian sentiment is hardly confined to turkey – armenians have also been attacked (and killed) by nationalists in (predominantly christian) russia and georgia.
“40% of british born muslims who wish to have sharia law in the UK is not a small number (considering the others are lying)”
That claim is a bit useless unless you also explain what the interviewees had in mind. If you pay attention to the (actual) debate, there’s reasonable support in the UK for sharia arbitration courts (which is what archbishop williams was talking about). These would cover civil (not criminal) matters and only if all parties agree. I.e. they’d be very similar to the jewish “beth din” services operating in the UK and elsewhere (and I doubt that many people would seriously want a situation like israel’s religious courts’ control over divorce proceedings, which can deliver pretty poor outcomes for women). I don’t think that’s controversial, and not at all like 40% of germans “wanting nazism back”. Once again, your portrayal of the situation is cartoonish.
I also suggest you actually read the report – some of its other conclusions aren’t at all what you’d imagine: http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/assets/Living_Apart_Together_text.pdf
For that matter, here’s another one you might find interesting, and probably more credible: http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/files/1231525079_1.pdf
“How would you react if 40% of germans wished to have nazism back?”
That would be a bit of a problem for germany, yes. For a real eye-opener, google some of the work on (particularly youth) sentiments in russia – surveys taken a few years ago suggested that stalin would win a popular election if he ran for office. What’s it about? Mostly it’s about economics and nationalism (apparently, russia is supposed to be an “empire” and, well, it’s not going so well).