It’s Not About the Flotilla: Turkey Changed Sides Years Ago
The foolish think the breakdown is due to the recent Gaza flotilla; the naïve, who pass for the sophisticated experts, attribute the collapse to the December 2008-January 2009 Israel-Hamas war in the Gaza Strip.
Such conclusions are totally misleading. The relationship breakdown was already clear — and in private every Israeli expert dealing seriously with Turkey said so — well over two years ago: the cause was the election in Turkey of an Islamist government.
Turkey’s AK Party government has not permitted a single new military contract with Israel since it took office. The special relationship was over then.
Turkey needed Israel as an ally when a secular government in Ankara regarded Iran, Syria, and Saddam Hussein’s Iraq as its main threats. Once there was a government which regarded Iran and Syria as its closest allies, Israel became a perceived enemy.
When the Turkish armed forces were an important part of the regime, they saw Israel as a good source for military equipment and an ally against Islamists and radical Arab regimes. But once the army was to be suppressed, its wishes were a matter of no concern. Depriving it of foreign allies was a goal of the AK Party government.
When Turkey thought it needed Israel as a way to maintain good relations with the United States, the alliance was valuable. But once it was clear that U.S. policy would accept the AK — and was none too fond of Israel — that reason for the alliance also dissolved. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan announced:
It’s Israel that is the principal threat to regional peace.
At first, this outcome was not so obvious. The AK Party won its first election by only a narrow margin. To keep the United States and EU happy, to keep the Turkish army happy, and to cover up its Islamist sympathies, the new regime was cautious over relations with Israel. Keeping them going served as “proof” of Turkey’s moderation.
Yet as the AK majorities in elections rose, the government became more confident. No longer did it stress that it was a center-right party with family values. The regime steadily weakened the army, using EU demands for civilian power. As it repressed opposition and arrested hundreds of critics, bought up 40 percent of the media, and installed its people in the bureaucracy, the AK’s arrogance and its willingness to throw off its mask grew steadily.
And then, on top of that, the regime saw that the United States would not criticize it, not press it, not even notice what the Turkish government was doing. President Barack Obama came to Turkey and praised the regime as a model of moderate Muslim democracy. Former President Bill Clinton appeared in Istanbul, and in response to questions asked by an AK Party supporter, was manipulated into virtually endorsing the regime’s program without realizing it.
Earlier this year, the situation became even more absurd as Turkey moved ever closer to becoming the third state to join the Iran-Syria bloc. Syria’s state-controlled newspaper and Iranian President Ahmadinejad openly referred to Turkey’s membership in their alliance, and no one in Washington even noticed what was happening. Even when, in May, Turkish policy stabbed the United States in the back by helping Iran launch a sanctions-avoidance plan, the Obama administration barely stirred.
A few weeks ago, the Turkish prime minister said that Iran isn’t developing nuclear weapons, that he regards President Ahmadinejad as a friend, and that even if Iran were building nuclear bombs it has a right to do so. And still no one in Washington noticed.
Turkey was not only what the Obama administration wanted in a Muslim-majority country, it was also one of the “responsible powers,” to quote the administration’s national security strategy document, that the White House saw as necessary attendants to shore up a weak America at the Home for Aging Senile Superpowers.
The current Turkish government hates Israel because it is an Islamist regime.
EVERY part of this analysis is spot on, especially for those who have been paying close attention to things ‘as they are’, not as one wishes them to be.
I would venture to further assert that another component is animating Turkey’s full throttle thrust into belligerency with Israel. Consider:while all eyes are concentrated on the Gaza flotilla turmoil, aren’t those same eyes(intel-wise) now too busy to monitor Iran’s ferrying of even more lethal weaponry to their other Islamic proxy, Hizbullah?
It is not a coincidence, that as Iran gets ready to fire up its nuclear arsenal, Turkey is charging into Israel’s face.There are few accidents in the domain of geopolitics,and we dare not forget that the Islamic chessboard is being carefully orchestrated by Iran- Turkey now being its most visible and useful partner.
The feeble-mindedness of the left is really appalling. A guy named Rosenberg, who has a position with Media Matters[not] makes one of the most ridiculous comparisons I have ever seen:
“…The first thing you need to know about the Gaza flotilla disaster is that the intention of the activists [Rosenberg, like the slugs in the MSM, uses the term activists to describe the blockade-runners, as if they were just some run of the mill anarchists] on board the ships was to break the Israeli blockade. Delivering the embargoed goods was incidental.
In other words, the activists were like the civil rights demonstrators who sat down at segregated lunch counters throughout the South and refused to leave until they were served. Their goal was not really to get breakfast. It was to end segregation…”
Isn’t it strange that I can’t recall that the civil rights demonstrators beat the lunch counter employees with metal pipes and chairs
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/lying-about-the-gaza-flot_b_597953.html
The first thing you need to know about the Gaza flotilla disaster is that the intention of the activists on board the ships was to break the Israeli blockade. Delivering the embargoed goods was incidental.
In other words, the activists were like the civil rights demonstrators who sat down at segregated lunch counters throughout the South and refused to leave until they were served. Their goal was not really to get breakfast. It was to end segregation.
“Turkey Changed Sides Years Ago”
I naively thought this would be an article about American relations with Turkey, the implications of which are far more consequential to the world (and to Israel) than whether or not Israel is friend or foe to the fascists of Istanbul.
Perhaps it’s understandable that much of the narrative at PJM is so completely Israel-centric, given the extremely precarious position of Israel in the world today, and especially under this heinous current Islamophile US president. But is that wise?
As long as the Great Jihad is described in such parochial terms, Israel doesn’t stand a chance. It’s time for Jewish writers to realize this fact. For too long the Islamic Jihad has been depicted in the west largely as squabble between a small bunch of Jews and a small bunch of Arabs in the Holy Land. That is a lie, and a big one at that. This distorted narrative which places Jews primarily at the center of Global Islamic Jihad may give them a peculiar bragging right to claim first place as victims yet once again, but it also perversely guarantees Jewish isolation, and axiomatically reinforces the likelihood that they will indeed be the first to be annihilated in the new Global Jihad.
Islamic Jihad is a global cancer, not a regional tumor. It involves Muslims across the spectrum terrorizing and spreading Islam. Jihad isn’t limited to ethnic Arabs, though they are the vector for the disease — it also involves Caucasian Muslims, Chinese Muslims, Philippine Muslims, Indonesian Muslims, Persian Muslims, and every shade and variety in between, all going medieval against each other, but especially against those hapless “infidels” they find in their way. Any impedance to the spread of their vile creed of Islam warrants Jihad. This isn’t just about annihilating the a Jewish State (what the Muslims refer to as the “Lesser Satan”), but is about annihilating the world. The Muslims think of it as bringing Islam to the four corners of the world, and making sure their Allah reigns supreme. For everybody else that means extermination.
All writers in the civilized world had better broaden this storyline before it’s too late!
That is an unfortunate post. Rubin is an Israeli born in the US. He is writing about Turkish-Israeli relations and why they failed. You remind me of a poster that used to write on FPM known as FreeThinker, who got hysterical over too many Jewish-centric articles.
I don’t know. Are you a writer? Then write something that relegates Jews to the margins, if that’s where you think we belong.
My opinion is that you are quite wrong, that Israel is an important target for Islamists for religious and practical reasons. The religious being found in the Jew-hating frenzies within the Quran, and the practical being that they recognize that Israel has more will to fight than the US does. But is this what gnaws at you, in part?
I’m afraid yours is the unfortunate post. We are all supporters of Israel on this site, except the few annoying Leninists who show up, but the significance of Turkey’s switch has repercussions far beyond Israel. It is unfortunate, though entirely understandable, that some Jews have a too-solipsistic sense of Israel’s importance. There’s no need to alienate people who are your friends.
Turkey was never Israel’s friend. They were allies of convenience for awhile. This ended when Turkey no longer needed the West to protect it from the USSR.
It IS too late already. We have 3 generations left of freedom at the most. Muslims don’t need Jihad, they just need to vote. Muslims have 3 times as many children as non Muslims and their children also become Muslim. 3 times 3 times 3 equals 27. Take any western country. Put year on the X-axis, put Muslim population on the Y-axis. Check mate.
islam is building its culthouses of hate in every Western capital on the planet, whether the locals want it or not. islam is indeed a global cancer, and one that requires chemotherapy and radiation treatment urgently.
If the Turkish population is so easily manipulated then they deserve the regime, just as America deserves Obama.
It isn’t just the US that is making mistakes when it comes to Turkey. You still have those who employ selective vision in Ottawa when it comes to those things that they don’t let Israel get away with, but Ankara has gotten away with.
Meanwhile, CNN (on in the lobby of my building) drones on about the “oil disaster” while missing the real news. We have lost a good ally and the balance of power in the Middle East has shifted. No need to report that – Muslims might be offended and the rest of us bored.
Turkey a “good ally”? When?
My Uncle was a liason with the Turkisk Brigade in Korea. He can tell you stories about the great “Anatolian Lions.”
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/korean.htm
I guess that means the USSR was a “good ally” in WWII. Who should we blame for losing them?
This link is to the main agitprop site for Turkish apologists. Distortions and obfuscations abound.
These great NATO allies;
1. letting 4th ID through its territory, eliminating the flexibility to possibly preventing the looting, who knows how many lives that could off saved not just coalition but locals.
2. since the Islamic government took over turkish people were being systematically brainwashed to the point, that the turkish movie “Valley of the Wolves” was accepted as real news adapted to film, almost as a documentary. AntiAmerican and Israeli news is the modus operandi for all outlets.
U.S. ambassador to Turkey Eric Edelman felt the need to call a news conference to turkish media to declare that we did not test a nuclear earthquake making bomb 2004 that caused the Indian Ocean tsunami.[ think about that, its almost like they want to be the new Pakistan...and they are in NATO]
I agree, last week they completed a decade long heel-turn on us. Maybe with the Soviets gone and the Russian Caspian fleet rusting hulks, they don’t need us anymore.
In the early 60′s, we had nuclear missles in Turkey. They were quietly withdrawn after the Cuban missile crisis.
Woops – meant the Black Sea Fleet.
what is sad is that Israel’s principle leaders, like Ehud Barak, seem locked into the world as it was years ago and unable to adjust there mental horizon. He just recently spoke of continuing to supply Turkey with Israeli built drones. Times like these require strong leadership and good judgement. Where is it?
Sorry, but the article is wrong.
The Turkish regime has NEVER been on our side. Not when the Ottoman Empire joined arms with the Kaiserreich and declared Jihad against the West, not when the genocidal war criminal Kemal Mufasta took over and “reformed” the Caliphate into a totalitarian banana republic with himself as its secular god, not when the Islamists in the civilian government split from the Kemalist military, not when Turkey was in NATO, not when it denied us support in Iraq, NEVER.
They have always held us in contempt since we failed to give them their just punishment after WWI, and they have hated us far longer than that. The only times we have acted remotely in concern was not because of Istanbul’s goodwill but because of its greed and its dependency on the West. And now today it just shows us what has existed all along: a sething, dysfunctional nation without the rule of law and without true democracy which spits in our face even as it depends on us to finance its continued existance.
We were fools to believe anything else.
You don’t believe that losing 90% of their empire was enough punishment?
Considering that many of the same thugs who ran that empire into the ground and slaughtered a good number of people not merely escaped the noose but indeed forged a new power that continued the Ottoman crimes of yore and who are still revered as absolutely BEYOND critcism, I would have to say “NO.”
Say what you will about Greece, but at least they have been a fairly consisten ally throughout all of this. The Turks are nowhere near that. If I were in Washington, I would be making VERY vague threats about if Turkey were to join the enemy camp and dare strike at us, the Greeks get Cyprus, the Aegean Islands, and perhaps even Pontus and Constantiople back.
I can’t imagine how much damage such a proposal would do to the equilibrium of the region if actually put into action, but the Turkish regimes- both Kemalist and Islamist- need to be informed that there will be a high- perhaps disproportionately and even irrationally so- cost should they attempt to cross the West more than they have already.
You’re absolutely correct! The Turks never came to terms with the loss of Empire and never did any soul-searching over the atrocities inflicted upon the victims of the Ottoman Empire. The main reason they pretended to be our friends was the need the US nuclear umbrella to protect Turkey from the USSR. Once the USSR collapsed, the Turkish leaders came to conclusion they’ve nothing to fear anymore, and they don’t need us anymore. In short, the dogs are biting the hand that fed them so generously and so selflessly. Israel is just the beginning.
I’ve literally just finished reading a book detailing objectively how the “secular” Turkish government of years past (Reagan era) committed soft genocide on the few remaining “Byzanties” ie surviving members and leaders of the Orthodox Church in what is now Istanbul but was originally Constantinople.
I wonder what the islamic name of New York will be?
When the modern Turkish Republic was created out of ashes of the Ottoman Empire by Ataturk, it had millions of non-Muslim citizens there – Greeks, Jews, and Armenians. There were about half a million Jews there alone! Today, it’s 99.9% Muslim, and only about 26 thousands Jews left. The ethnic cleansing of Turkey is basically complete, and the West looked the other way. In fact, the reason the ethnic cleansing there was so successful, has been the Western desire not to rock the boat out of fear that the secular elements there would be hurt. In fact, the opposite happened – the officially approved bigotry and the refusal to face the truth about the dark pages of the Turkish history smoothed the way for the Turkish Islamists to come to power. The chickens came home to roost.
This is a pretty sound analysis of the Turkish-Israeli & Turkish-American relations, and it’s something we haven’t heard from the msm and other assorted “experts”. But the truth is, Turkey had been a rather unreliable “friend” even before the Islamists came to power and began to purge the secular elements in the Army, courts, academia, and bureaucracy b/c the vast majority of population always remained Islamist despite the best efforts of Ataturk and his heirs. In short, the breakup between Turkey & Israel was bound to happen no matter what we or Israelis or anybody else have done. And we should make no mistake, the breakup with the USA is next. In fact, once the USSR fell apart, the raison d’être for the alliance with the USA was gone as well. The fact that so many of our “best & brightest” have been caught with their pants down is the most surprising thing here. Unfortunately, we’ll continue to keep hearing the same nonsense about Turkey being the “only Muslim friend” Israel has in the mainstream media until the day the Israeli Embassy will be stormed by the Turkish “students” outraged b/c of this or that action of the Israeli government, and we’ll keep pretending that Turkey is the “functioning” democracy until the day it’s declared an Islamic Republic.
the Israeli government has been murdering innocent people for the last 60 years with the help of my federal tax dollars…as for the flotila, i do beleive these boats were sent to provoke the Israelis. and then they over reacted and killed anothe 9 innocent people.. and I think this time in self defense or may by accidet.. but since the Israeli military had a clear history of slaugtering innicent people this time they do not have a leg to stand on.. sorry..
Are you deaf, dumb and blind to what Kamal Saleem, Walid Shoebat, Nonie Darwish,
Bat Yeor, Wafa Sultan, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (just to name a few) have to say about the worst enemy of the Arab is the Arab, amongst other things?
I wonder if you have the intellectual honesty to read “Exodus” by Leon Uris.
Why can’t our crop of anti-semites at least come up with some new lies?
I’ve grown tired of refuting the old ones.
The sad thing is that this tool actually believes that someone who attacks another person with clubs, knives and axes, is innocent.
Mirian, I hear Hamas is having a recruiting drive.
Hey, Babe. Where can I get some of that stuff you’re smoking? That’s some serious alternative reality consciousness, dudette. Some real “cloud nine”.
Read about your tax dollars at work at the Evian Conference at which
“Most of the governments represented acted promptly by slamming their doors against Jewish refugees.”
This was a comment by a Newsweek reporter sarcastic in reaction to the result where the American representative said that the governments must act and act promptly.
So your tax dollars aided and abet6ted the killing of millions of Jews.
The Evian Conference
Scroll down and read about the WAGNER-ROGER’S BILL to save some children
Yes, your tax dollars at work.
Now please clue up on the facts of the last 60 years as well.
What is it with cowards and things named for French mineral water (French of course- modern home of cowardice of all kinds)…
Evian, Vichy… What the hell, man.
Mirian,
I do not feel sorry for the activists one bit. They knew the blockade was in place and they chose to defy it. I’m tired of people playing “cat and mouse” games and then cry boo hoo when action is taken against them. And before you even mention the term, “international waters”, the Israeli’s were told by someone on the flotilla that they were headed to Gaza in direct violation. If this happened to my country (Canada), I would expect the army to do everything they could to stave off these people whether or not it was in international waters.
People are so blind and they really have no idea of how dangerous this world really is
On the ships where nobody attacked the Israeli boarders, nobody got hurt.
Only those who tried to kill the Israeli’s got hurt and killed.
The only group who bears any responsibility for what happened are the jihadists who tried to run the blockade.
Beyond that, the blockade would be dropped tomorrow if Hamas would decide to live in peace.
There is no way for Hamas to live in peace with Israel.
Part 1 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBP-XCwlhbI
Part 2 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU6wLA5XNLE&feature=related
Part 3 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vonJ2kUuw3k&feature=related
Part 4 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uryulOslcb4&feature=related
Part 5 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwsMdut-K4Q&feature=related
As long as Sharia comes only from Allah, and people say, “I do not agree” the
treatment is everlasting animosity. Now, why shouldn’t people ask why people do not agree with Sharia? Could it be because of double standards?
with
i wonder what the odds are Turkey’s already got a nascent Russia-sponsored nuclear weapons program percolating somewhere in its military-industrial complex right now.
Turkey’s flotilla was an act of Jihad, part of the broad Radical Islamic and Leftist campaign to delegitamize Israel.
Turkey is pushing hard to help collapse the state of Israel so that Israeli Jews can be exterminated by the millions.
Sorry, folks. That’s just the way it is.
OK So what should we do? Here are a couple of ideas:
1. Adopt the Armenian Genocide resolution in Congress. Build a monument to the Armenians in DC. preerably in front of the Turkish Embassy.
2. Sic the Kurds on them. They deserve it. The US should become the foremost exponent of Kurdish rights. Every time the Turks introduce a resolution in the UN condemning Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, we should offer an amendment condemning Turkey’s treatment of the Kurds. Some covert action should help.
Will we do it? I doubt it. B. Hussein Obama is supporting Iran too.
Oh, I have some ideas.
3. Support the Greeks in their disputes with the Turks. While this is a very long shot given the advanced demographic decay and the obvious financial collapse, perhaps support their efforts to invest in the military by highlighting Turkish atrocities in the Aegean? Who knows, perhaps this might help turn Greece around and help stabilize the financial market.
4. Support the Cypriots against the Turks. We should be VERY openly courting Cyprus and hosting joint military training units while rearming them and perhaps getting them into NATO or the League of Democracies should it ever come into existance, al lthe while training and equiping their armies so that if Ankara ever tries a round two, they will be rewarded with defeat and the liberation of Northern Cyprus.
5. Feeding the Turkish democratic underground for all it is worth. We need a new option other than the Islamists and the Kemalists, and in time we may actually succeed.
6. Slashing foreign aid for Turkey by a large amount, particularly in the military arena.
7. Increasing aid to Israel at the same time.
8. Trying to bring about the simultaneous collapse of both the Kemalists and the Islamists.
9. Covertly funding several documentaries revealing how the Turks backstabbed their Kurdish allies (who, granted, were NOT nice) after WWI under the leadership of the “glorious” Kemal Mufasta, as well as some works showing the true nature ot Attaturk.
10 Floating the idea that perhaps the treaties that negotiate passage of the Dardanelles be revised. We might even be able to get the effing Russians in on that idea.
11. Should the Turks attack, crush them so throughly and utterly that they shall look with fondness back to the Battles of Meggido, Sharqat, and (ironically) 3rd Gaza.
I suspect that the simplest answer lies in ‘displaying’ to Islam that the West is always the indisputable strong horse, despite our currently warped appearance. Bomb/Invade the Iranians out of both the Mullah and the Atomic business – just like was done in Iraq. Decimation will succeed where, in this case, Persuasion has already been tried: and failed.
Israel can launch the massive pre-emptive strike and the US will follow on her heels. Tiny Israel will connect a jaw-breaking punch upon our enemies that will show, by comparison, that the Irresistible Force in world affairs is the giant United States of America. Don’t worry about Obama: he is a puppet of the grander Scheme (as in GOD) of things.
Buck up!
As an Armenian-Turk, allow me to add a few points. It would be a huge mistake to recognize the genocide now. Bush had an opportunity right after 9/11 to correct history, but our entanglements with Ankara grew beyond military after the collapse of the USSR thanks to Clinton. The BP pipeline from Azerbaijian to the Black Sea, which snakes around Armenia, has been a huge driving force in the region and our relations since ’96. A recognition of the genocide will galvanize the Turkish people against us, kill all airspace or transport routes through Turkish land and force Azerbaijian to choose between the US or Iran. Obama knows this, which is why he backed off his pledge to recognize the genocide even when one of his closest confidants is Michelle Powers, a huge genocide advocate. He even talked her into backing off of it via Youtube last year. More than likely, whoever is President in 2015, the centennial, will recognize it.
Another subtle action on part of the Turkish government over the past decade has been the re-education going on in Turkey and attempted over in the States through outreach and exchange programs. In Turkey, the language was scrubbed of any non-Turkish words starting in ’04. It would be the equivalent of the US government ordering the erasure of all Native American words from state or federal use. Animals, which had been called certain names for generations, were literally renamed in one move.
In the States, the re-education has been more subtle. A lot of it has been through business contacts which allowed the Turkish education ministry to create partnerships with schools throughout the States, from colleges to middle schools. Once in the system, they re-write Turkish history as if the Ottoman just progressed into Turkey one year. I learned about this because I ran into it through my college alumni and nephew’s school system. It’s deplorable because the schools readily go along with it due direct or indirect financial gain.
From the DC front, its best not to officially push the Armenian issue because that’s what Pelosi wants while another wing of the Democrats, spearheaded by Dick Gephardt initially, is on the Turkish dole and trying to wedge Turkish influence into the Dem party. Pelosi went forward with the Aremenian resolution as a way to refute the effort which has gained a number of progressive supporters.
The Armenian Issue is a huge problem for Turkey and will be for AK, Erdogan and Gul. Iran and Syria have recognized it for years because of the diaspora populations. Iran works closely with Armenia on gas pipelines to Russia which irritates the hell out Azer and Turkey. Turkey always had Israel’s non-recognition as a trump card, but that’s gone. EU entry was killed over this because of the Armo influence in France and distrust of the large Turk population in Germany. Throw a stabilized Iraq into the mix and every surrounding neighbor will officially acknowledge the issue.
The last issue that needs to be addressed is Turkish media. Their MSM is pure agitprop making it utterly useless. What’s a real danger though, is the Turkish hackers community. It doesn’t get much play in the States, but they are a huge player. Right now, most are focused on personal, college interest stuff – entertainment based things. If the deep state in Ankara ever truly flips out and decides to “nationalize” this group like the Chinese attempt, we will enter the first age of guerilla cyber warfare.
Quite simply, the Turkish people aren’t crazy. They have strong Western tastes but very little respect for Western society. Their sense of nationalism is the highest in the world and it brings a lot of hubris baggage. Ankara wants to pluck this cord because its what the Iranians do to maintain control. The best position for us is to focus on Iraq and back Israel at the UN. Eventually, we’re going to see a Rafik Hariri moment which will lead to a military coup. That’s how Turkey always resets itself and we just need to let it play out.
What is wrong with Armenia working with its Eastern Orthodox cousins to frankly have a better life? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBP-XCwlhbI&feature=related and the following 4 parts show, with those who have vision instead of being afflicted with selective vision, that the wrath of the Muslim is eternal to those who do not submit to the justifications of raiders who stormed out of the Arabian Peninsula 14 centuries ago in the name of conquest.
Let all the Orthodox Countries in Europe, plus the Roman Catholic countries (nominal or not) on the northern shoreline of the Mediterranean Sea work together with Israel to teach the Sons of Allah a message.
After all, why can’t the dynamic of “all for one and one for all” be relegated to “The 3 Musketeers”?
Hell why not Fat Man, you guys practically own the US Congress and can get away with anything, including murdering American citizens.
Turkey can’t hold Israel accountable for murdering Turkish citizens; America could not hold Israel accountable for murdering American citizens.
Remember when Israel attacked the US Navy Ship, the USS Liberty in similar circumstances? The Israelis murdered 34 American sailors in cold blood and wounded 171 more. Remember how President Johnson, the US Congress and the American media worked hand-in-hand to cover up for Israel? Israel got away with murdering Americans.
AIPAC has the US Congress by the balls; Turkey is too weak to stand to the Israeli Lobby in America. Don’t you worry about a thing; the Israeli Lobby has a stranglehold on America.
One thing Israel has to seriously worry about when it comes to the rest of the world. The world is beginning to view Israel in the same contemptuous manner it used to view the apartheid state of South Africa. Unfortunately, AIPAC and its minions in Congress can’t help Israel much in the court of world opinion.
These anti-semites are starting to sound like truthers.
No matter how many times their favorite myths are refuted, they keep touting them.
Yes, when Iraq disintegrates into its three-way civil war, we should support an independent Kurdistan, including it’s claim to 1/3 of Turkish land, and provide it with air support.
Turkey’s participation in the F-35 program should be dropped. Immediately.
Point number 3. Thank you Flash.
Why? Then they would spend their money on aircraft that actually exist and are better than their current F-16′s.
The good news is that this is the end of Turkey thinking it will be a part of the European Union. Thank goodness Germany and France lead the way to block their entry.
The next step will be dropping Turkey out of NATO and repositioning US military in Turkey.
Declare the Kurdish portions of Iraq to be South Kurdistan, and form an immediate military alliance with the new country. This will leave Iran and Turkey to wonder just where North Kurdistan is located, and why South Kurdistan needs some many M-1 tanks. Then suggest to the Russians that they’ve only been after Constantinople for a century or two, and maybe something can be worked out.
Lovely. Turkey goes over the course of a century from “Sick man of Europe” to faux-moderne “MidnightExpressistan” back to “Sick Man of Europe.” “Turkish progress” is an oxymoron, isn’t it?
The Turks are apparently spoiling for a fight with Israel. That’s nice, but once the Israelis are done with Erdogan & Co., “Izmir” will again be named “Smyrna,” the “Hagia Sophia” will once again be a Christian church, and a Greek-speaking guy named “Justinian” will likely rule in “Constantinople.”
I’m thinking that the most thoughtful Greeks are mulling over that. The reclaiming of Constantinople is a hallowed dream of Ellas.
http://www.nationalpost.com/Turkey+hidden+agenda/3110016/story.html
is also worth reading.
Hypocrisy. That’s all.
First, Turkey cries “blockade,” when it has been blockading Armenia for more than 10 years. Somehow nobody in the media mentions Turkey’s blockade. But what do you expect from journalists, who are either brain dead, incompetent or dhimmi.
Second, pass a resolution condemning the Turkey’s genocide of Armenians from 1915-1923, the first genocide of the 20th century. When the issue of the Jewish genocide (Holocaust) came up, Hitler retorted “After all, who remembers the Armenians.” Will the US do it? I doubt it.
Third, Israel should pass a resolution condemning the Turkey’s genocide of Armenians from 1915-1923, I doubt it. They play politics too. Very short-sighted, but who says Jews don’t know how to screw up.
So, this is how the world is.
Michael Coren interviewed Bat Ye’or and a former Islamic Scholar “Sam”. The show, in the Mountain Time Zone, ended less than an hour ago (as I write this).
Keep an eye out for it, for the segments do not pull any punches as to what drives the “humanitarian flotillas”.
Here is part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBP-XCwlhbI
I highly recommend reading this: http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/05/21/why-christians-should-try-to-convert-muslims/
The regime steadily weakened the army, using EU demands for civilian power.
Yet another destructive policy from the EU. The politically correct, multi-culturalist politicians of the EU dangled EU membership to get Turkey to dismantle the army’s power; never fully understood the dynamics of Turkish politics. To begin with, Turkey was never a match for the EU. The EU will never invite Turkey with the army meddling in politics. However, dismantling the army’s power to get Turkey into the EU only results in inviting Islamists into the EU block.
It was very important, he explained, that the Turkish people not become the enemy for the West and Israel. They were merely the passengers: the regime — the captain and the crew — was the problem.
Can’t agree to this. The Turkish people put this regime in power through election. They are responsible for what this regime brings, just like the American voters are responsible to the decline of the US because of Obama’s policies or the Palestinians are responsible to the miseries brought by Hamas’ policies. Elections do have consequences. It’s not like in China or Iran where elections are a sham and the public has no say to the end result.
Is this the magic weapon the AK will use to gain reelection next year? Many Turks think so, and are angry at Israel for, in their eyes, helping the survival of the regime they hate.
Yet another excuse not to blame themselves. If they know what this regime is doing and how Israel is set up to give the regime a political advantage, they still can refuse to play along and vote this regime out of power anyway. If they still want to spite Israel by re-voting the regime even though they understand that the violence is incited by this regime, that’s their business. Blame themselves 10 years from now for the miseries brought by their gullibility.
The thing is, when the people are given the power to choose their representatives, they have the responsibility to choose wisely. Like Uncle Ben said to Spider-man: With power comes responsibility. You can say the same thing to people who have a buyer’s remorse in voting in Obama. You could’ve listen to the critics, you could’ve use reason instead of celebrity hysteria, and so on. You had the chance of not putting him in power and you didn’t take it. Simple as that.
It remains to be seen how much of a threat Turkey will be for Greece. One thing for sure, watch all the anti-American rhetoric that was so prevalent in Greece go away.
I am still attempting to verify the following, but thus far it appears to be correct. At a committee type “inquiry” of the Irish Parliament (the “Dáil”) yesterday, Shane Dillon, First Mate on the “Challenger 1″, which was part of the flotilla, was asked what aid cargo was on his ship. My information is that he replied that there was NO cargo on the ship, just seventeen people. If this is correct, it needs to be publicised: no need for me to say that the racist Irish media has not covered this little gem! Sounds a bit like the song “The Pub With No Beer”. I will continue to check with sources and I will get back to the forum with verification, etc. May God Bless You All – even the odd anti-Israeli racist who finds their way onto the site. They need it more than most! Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.
Remember there’s another boat, Rachel Corrie slated to be accompanied by Turkish Naval warships on the way.
What then?
If those ships attack Israeli Naval boats that is an act of war.
If Israel fails to prevent this new attempt to infiltrate the blockade, they are giving up and I can’t see Netanyahu folding in the face of this new provocation. Under his leadership Israel is binding together. Even Kadima and Livni are offering support. Bibi right now has the legislature and the people behind him four square.
Turkey is manipulating this situation for all its worth. They are engineering a stand off as a test of Israel’s resolve.
High stakes and ultimate brinksmanship as the worlds MSM, the EU and Obama equivocate, apply the relativity game and flail in waters they deliberately fail to understand.
This is 1937 reduxe as the tectonic plates grind into place.
Do we never learn?
Everybody arguing, reconstructing, analyzing, etc. about the events — pro-Israel, anti-Israel, mass media, us, etc. — seem to me like fish taking an appetizing bait.
I don’t think the flotilla thing had much to do with Israel, Palestinians or Gaza. I think it has to do with Turkey, and its own geo-strategic considerations. Outfitting the flotilla and sending it on its way had no downside for Turkey. If there was a “massacre,” Turkey gets to lead the inevitable chorus of condemnation. If they make it to Gaza, Turkey is an Islamic hero. This was a risk-free demonstration of Islamic bona fides, risk-free because, in the end, no matter what happened, they can count on everybody reflexively demonizing Israel whatever it does. And what’s it to them to risk a few Turkish lives?
I think we are watching a major (and dangerous) geopolitical shift, wherein Turkey has turned East under Erdogan, and away from the West. NATO member Turkey has chosen, for the moment anyway, to partner with Iran, Syria, etc.
Maybe they are pissed that the EU wouldn’t take them in. Maybe they predict the EU going down (Greece, et al), and have recalculated that Islam is winning what looks more and more like an incipient calamity of major war. Maybe they harbor nostalgic Ottoman dreams. (After all, the Iranian Caliphate dream is 500+ years gone; the Ottomans were defeated only <100 years ago.) So, maybe they feel they should be leading the Islamic world. Or maybe they recognize that they must flex Islamist muscle in order not to be overwhelmed by Iranian ambition. Maybe they feel they must do something to counteract growing sympathy for Kurdish ambitions. Maybe they see America — the only real Western military power — stuck in Afghanstan, sinking in debt and will, and dependent on Islamic oil. Who knows? One thing for sure — they want to be on the winning side. And maybe they have concluded that Islam is the winning side.
I can remember when some of the “smart” milblogs like Blackfive were chastising me that the Turkish people were completely secular and that to imply that there was a major strain of Islamic extremism was a figment of my imagination.
Fast forward a several years hence and it’s time we told these bloggers and journalists to take off the blinders.
Anybody with any connection to the US Military knew that the Turks were never as moderate as the political hacks, journalists and libtards claimed to be.
Any claim by the authors of this article that the Turkish population is anything BUT inherently Islamist is nothing more than hastily cooked up lies and cover-up. They are telling the obvious truth in that the Blockade runners are not the source of this tension, but they are lying when they imply that the Turkish people are not the source.
It was inevitable that leftists and Muslims would use dishonorable means to contrive an “incident”. That the Israelis predictably would stand their ground is no excuse for the author to whitewash the Turkish people’s culpability in this matter. This incident was cooked up by Turks, planned and logistically supported by their democratically elected government, and the Islamist provocteurs are now being welcomed as heroes by the vast majority of the Turkish people.
I dare anyone to find a single instance of Turkish people NOT praising the Islamists.
People have judged the Turks as “moderates” because they don’t usually wear hijabs and veils.
News flash: neither do the most Muslims including those that burn neighborhoods in Paris and fly planes into heavily populated buildings.
You’re talking about a dissociated, regional culture that sees nothing wrong about using infidel ways to destroy infidel culture. The Muslims see themselves as spiritually superior ordained by Allah (the Arabs add a racial flavor to their superiority complex); technology, money, and those damn Western clothes have nothing to do with it in their minds. They’ll wear it and use it and STILL see no contradiction in their Islamic destiny/duty to beat other cultures into submission or wipe your culture off the face of the map.
Get that point through your thick skulls!
Instead of looking at outward appearances like clothing and race to distinguish a person’s ideology, these bloggers should be advised simply to report what the Turks themselves are saying – verbatim, word-for-word, unfiltered.
Same thing they’ve been saying for years: they’re victims, they hope the USA gets nuked, 9/11 was a Jewish conspiracy, the Muslims who caused 9/11 were heroes, kill the Jews, Allahu Ahkbar, etc etc….and that’s just what the Turkish MILITARY personel at Incirlik believed.
The problem is: what the Turks have to say – indicative of what they think – is something the journalistic/blogger class doesn’t want you to know.
*PS
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing the Israelis being pounded into the sea but I can at least recognize that the Israeli Military has an honorable tradition. Honorable institutions of professional arms – no matter what their allegiances – deserve better than to be humiliated by dishonorable trash like those Aid Workers.
Despite the feeding frenzy by Western leftists, who are all Islam history ignoramuses being manipulated by Muslim disinfo. artists, it’s not about Israel, it’s about horrible Islam. The whole flotilla incident was a setup by Hamas and rapidly re-Islamizing Turkey to create a provocation for a future war of extermination against Israel, and they used the Western leftists aboard. The rest is B.S.
See this great YouTube called We Con the World by the Flotilla Choir that tells it like it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg
From day one poor outnumbered surrounded Israel has sought to share their territory peacefully with the Arabs, but the intense hatred and anti-Semitism of the latter combined with Allah’s commands to never yield one square inch of their Sharia-ruled territory to infidels has made this impossible. The blockade was started after ten thousand rockets were launched from Gaza into Israel, and can’t be lifted as long as they threaten a repeat. Instead of lobbying Israel to drop it, why not lobby Egypt to drop their end and resettle the Palestinians in their huge territory, such as Sinai? Answer: Egyptian-Arab hatred.
View the following vid to see an Egyptian cleric expose his enormous anti-Semitic hate, showing why Israel will always have to defend itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg
See why Jews have the historic right to Israel, not Arabs:
http://historyscoper.com/tlwjerusalem.html
Turkey is threatening to re-Islamicize, restore the caliphate, this time with nukes, and restart their jihad on the West that was stopped with their defeat in Vienna in 1683, this time with a huge fifth column of Muslims in Europe. Keep up on the evolving Islamic threat daily with the Historyscoper:
http://historyscoper-islamwatch.blogspot.com/
Hey Historyscoper,
It is interesting that you mentioned the Turkish fifth column in Europe, as you seem to draw on deep reservoir of local experience in this matter.
Maybe some of these European Muslims have learned a lesson or two from the Zionist fifth Columnists who ravaged our National security here at home.
Take the American Navy Intelligent Specialist, turned Israeli Spy, Jonathan Pollard. Before he was arrested at the gate of the Israeli Embassy in Washington D.C., Pollard had given the Israelis loads of our most sensitive national security materials. It was also reported that most of these materials were handed to the Soviet Union by Israel, in return for more Jewish immigrants from the USSR to Israel.
The list of indicted American Zionists who compromised our National Security for Israel is very long indeed. The indicted Israeli spies, and ex AIPAC executives, Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman are another case of American Zionists who spied for Israel. Ben Ami Kadish, Stewart David Nozette are also on the long list of indicted American Zionists who spied on America for Israel.
America can safely assume that every American Zionist is a potential Israeli spy. The Turks must have learned valuable lesson from the Zionists.
The unanswered question so far is: Why would our so-called Israeli ally compromise our national Security after all the money grants and weapons it sucks from us?
Sorry, but the Turks have been pulling this tripe far longer than the Israeli nation has existed. Take a look at the Americus affair and their WWI/WWII spy plots in Britain. If anything, the Israelis learned from the Turks.
And the reason the Israelis would compromise our national security is the same reason why we do the same with them (which you NEVER hear as much of) and why allies generally spy on each other: in games with as high stakes as these, you cannot absolutely trust ANYBODY, particularly considering the risks of enemy cells operating in allied intel services.
You’re right, of course, Turtler.
Also, the Israelis have had to be much more careful since the Yom Kippur War. They almost had to use the final solution as they were on the verge of being annihilated.
I think that the final solution would be to destroy the kaaba. There are Christian and Jewish scholars who feel that bombing the kaaba and destroying the black meteorite would end Islamic terrorist activities. The reason being that Muslim Fundamentalists believe that if the black meteorite and/or Mecca is destroyed and Jerusalem is still standing and possessed by the Jews that Allah is not God.
I hope they have a few bulldozers ready to raze the Dome of the Rock to the ground as well.
I’m willing to bet that you either believe that the US doesn’t spy on the Israeli’s or that it’s ok for us to do so.
To paraphrase somebody or other, everybody spies on everybody. It’s what modern nations do. The fact that you only get upset when Jews do it, is very telling.
Hey Alexander The Great,
No, I am not that upset. And after all, Americans don’t receive money from the Israeli tax payers; the Israeli do. If some one gives you free money, don’t stab him in the back.
If we give Israel money, economic and military grants, conduct joint military research with the Israelis and share intelligence with them on almost every thing; why would they still need to spy on us?
And there is one more point that bugs me. I was reading the other day that the Israelis are sharing our top military technology with Communist China. How would that fit in the notion that “every body spies on every body”?
BTW, I wouldn’t go as far as razing the dome of the rock; that will put us at the same level with the evil Romans who destroyed the first Jewish Temple. Of course, it would be different story if you want to raze the dome of the rock to erect the Second Temple in its place. See, I have served in the Army and seen a lot of killings, I think that it is time for all of us to get along on this planet.
“No, I am not that upset. And after all, Americans don’t receive money from the Israeli tax payers; the Israeli do. If some one gives you free money, don’t stab him in the back.”
They haven’t. It’s not stabbing them in the back (THAT would be aggressive sabotage with possible asassinations). It’s looking over their shoulder. Which is exactly what we do with them. And what pretty much everybody does with everybody,
“If we give Israel money, economic and military grants, conduct joint military research with the Israelis and share intelligence with them on almost every thing; why would they still need to spy on us?”
Because we DON’T share intelligence with them on CLOSE to almost every thing, and they also would like to know what the US will do if the balloon comes up again. It’s not NICE granted, but it is so unrevolutionary its pratically not worth mentioning.
My main issue with them is who they are sharing our intel with (namely the Communist Chinese), which I believe is remarkably bad shape to do (particularly considering the extreme likelyhood of military confrontation between the West and Beijing in the future), and I can only hope that we have worked out some agreement with them whereupon they only give the CCP data that is of little use to them.
How many Arabists are in Foggy bottom, the Pentagon and Langley?
Plus, are you saying that there are no intelligence agencies from outside of Israel, that are operating within Israel.
I forecast that your silence to this comment shows you have a glass jaw.
folks: do not worry about the Israeli government… they have been murdering people for the last 60 years and have gotten away with it.. they will do it again..relax..it will be all okay..it will happen again…
What is really surprising is that the Turks should think that there is some kind of reward at the end of the tunnel. The army dragged them out of the 7th Century in the 1920s. Whatever progress they made since then was due to Ataturk. Now they want to go back to …. nothing. My advice to the Turkish people is to: store food.
It’s time for us to 1)make it clear we are now on the side of Greece, Cyprus, Kurdistan and other probable enemies of Turkey and 2)be on the lookout for a chance to acquaint these infidels with how our Anglo-Saxon ancestors dealt with such TRAITORS as the Turks have shown themselves to be.
Too bad the EU didn’t let Turkey join their club like they wanted to. That would have been another nail in the Union’s well deserved coffin.
Like it or not Turkey is exactly the bridge between east and west by its geography. We may not like its politics, the last election was bought by modern islamic women (coloured head cover, long fawn coat) going house to to house with sweets, toys and promises.
Turkey is an emerging developing nation. There is a strong democratic inclination that its present gov’t is doing its best to kill. There is strong islamic financial support from external sources. There is no compensatory backing for democracy. Turkey’s re-islamification is not down to internal choice. So far Turkey has been given the finger by the EC fascist thieves (I’m English, some knowledge of Kinnockesque movers and shake-downers) that the islamics have capitalised on. What has not emerged from the EC prats is a way to integrate the country without opening the immigration gates.
It would not surprise me that many Ataturk adherents voted for the islamic gov’t. Mid easterners don’t take insults lightly. What Turkey did prove before the fascist islamics regained control is that reasonably honest democracy can work in a reasonably developed islamic society. It needed investment, encouragement and support. Got statistically zero and said well f*ck you. In their place what would you do? Oh yes, vote for a Nigerian.
(The BP disaster was apparently premeditated. As usual the tards f*cked it up. The Obama script alternatives weren’t ready. )
The incumbent Turk gov’t is suppressing Internet access, that I know of is Dawkins’ site and Youtube. I believe there are dozens of others. What is the US doing to uphold the freedom of speech? Leaving it to hackers like dtunnel.com.
The current occupants of Ankara’s seat of power look to be average thickos. Who is herding the donkeys?
Talking of men who ride a donkey while studying its butt end:
A man wanted money from the Hodja on credit, but the Hodja said:
“I have no money, but I can give you credit. How much do you want?”
(Standard gov’t question, standard fed reply.)
More: http://www.business-with-turkey.com/hoca/hoca1.htm
A long time ago government was for the people. The most effective got bumped. Self-preservation instinct says there is no such thing as an honest politician while a there is a banker in town.
Get gold behind the dollar again and the extortionist game is dead in the water.
How?
A coalition government is the only solution.
First they have to get the religion out of politics in Israel.
Then they have to get the religion out of terrorism in Israel and Palestine.
Then there is a chance.
Israeli’s don’t hate Palestinians. Palestinians don’t hate Israelis. Work it out.
I don’t agree that you get the gov’t you deserve.
Immigrants from Georgia rule Israel.
Oricum, sprijinul nostru, al tuturor, conteaza. Fie ca ai participat la acest maraton, ai donat, ai ajutat in vre-un fel la organizarea acest eveniment, te face campion.