Is Turkey Using Chemical Weapons Against the Kurds?
The German weekly newsmagazine Der Spiegel has published an investigative article that accuses the Turkish military of using chemical weapons against members of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK). The magazine reports that forensic experts at the Hamburg University Hospital have confirmed the authenticity of 31 photographs that show the severely scorched bodies of eight PKK fighters who are believed to have been killed in the Kurdish town of Çukurca in September 2009. The hospital says it is highly probable that the victims in the photographs, six men and two women who are said to be scarcely recognizable as human beings, died “due to the use of chemical substances.”
The photographs were given to a German human rights delegation that was visiting Turkey in March 2010. That delegation was associated with Die Linke, the far-left political party that traces its roots back to the communist party in the former East Germany, which would imply that the allegations warrant skepticism. But it seems unlikely that Der Spiegel, which is one of the largest publications in Europe, with a weekly circulation of more than one million, would publish the story without first determining its veracity. In any case, Der Spiegel reports that Hans Baumann, one of Germany’s leading forgery specialists, has also confirmed the authenticity of the photographs.
According to a detailed report by the Berlin daily newspaper Die Tageszeitung, the incident took place on September 8, when Turkish military headquarters received word that one of its soldiers had been killed by PKK fighters. The army responded by dispatching helicopters and several troop units to the area in an effort to scatter an estimated 7,000 PKK fighters. According to eyewitnesses cited by Die Tageszeitung, eight PKK fighters tried to escape by hiding in a nearby cave. But they were soon discovered by Turkish troops, who proceeded to fire artillery shells, allegedly laden with poison gas, into the cave. Turkish troops later pulled the lifeless bodies from the cave, sprayed them with bullets, and then drove over them with their tanks.
Die Tageszeitung reports it has also obtained other autopsy photographs of six Kurds killed in similar circumstances in Şirnak province in south-eastern Anatolia. Those pictures currently are being analyzed for their authenticity by the University Hospital in Hamburg.
German politicians and human rights experts now are demanding an international probe. “The latest findings are so spectacular that the Turkish side urgently needs to explain things,” says Claudia Roth, the co-chair of Germany’s left-wing Green Party. “It is impossible to understand why an autopsy of the PKK fighters was ordered but the results kept under seal.” Roth adds that there have been repeated “mysterious incidents of this type that are crying out for an independent investigation.”
Ruprecht Polenz, the center-right chairman of the German parliament’s Foreign Relations Committee, says that “Turkey needs to urgently look into these accusations.” He is also calling for an international investigation. Uta Zapf, the center-left chairman of the German parliament’s Arms Control and Disarmament Committee, says that “it is incredibly important that this incident be cleared up, because [the use of chemical weapons] would constitute a flagrant violation of international law.” Zapf says she will ask German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle to demand that the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which is based in The Hague, launch an investigation into the case. According to the Jerusalem Post, the left-wing German lawmaker Andrej Hunko is also calling on Westerwelle to lodge a complaint against Ankara with the OPCW.
Does this surprise anyone that knows Turkey? Just read any history book on what the Turks did to the Armenians, Christians and Greek minority which they once had. They either killed them or expelled them. Such is Turkey’s “tolerance” for minorities or non-muslim religions. Expect more of the same as long as the Islamicists are in charge & it will only get worse.
Time for the world to have one standard for all nations.. Not just one standard for Israel and no standards for anyone else.
The Kurds are far more deserving of a state than the “palestinians”. It’s time that Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey stop the ILLEGAL occupation of Kurdistan.
Since these nations are illegally squatting on the KURDS nationalistic rights? they have the same right to do WHATEVER they wish as long as it copies the “palesintians”
With any luck, within Iran, Iran, Syria and Turkey they will have crude homemade rockets rained down on them, stabbings, sniping and more…
Can’t wait for the people of those 4 nations have to explain their behavior in front of the world from being genocial towards the Kurds.
“Can’t wait for the people of those 4 nations have to explain their behavior in front of the world from being genocial towards the Kurds.”
I can’t wait for the people of those 4 nations to have to explain their behavior in front of the One True and Living God* for being genocidal towards the Kurds.
*Hint: IT’S NOT ALLAH.
Just curiously, are the Kurds Muslim? If anyone knows, please post.
Most Kurds are Sunni Muslims. A small percentage, I think about 80,000 or so in Iraq, are Shi’a Muslims. A smaller percentage are Yazidis. From the Wikipedia entry on “Yazidis”: “Their religion, Yazidism, is a branch of Yazdânism, and is seen as a highly syncretic complex of local Kurdish beliefs and Islamic Sufi doctrine introduced to the area by Sheikh Adi ibn Musafir in the 12th century. The Yazidi believe in God as creator of the world, which he placed under the care of seven holy beings or angels, the chief of whom is Melek Taus, the Peacock Angel.”
We can thank the EU for a good part of this. They were the idiots who forced Turkey to change its Constitution, in 2003, to take supreme power away from the secular military (as the EU rightfully noted that this sort of governmental structure was antithetical to Western values of State) in order to be considered for membership in the EU – which the EU never intended to offer Turkey, also correctly. From that official diminishment the EU forced Turkey to take away the one mechanism that had kept it passably sane since its establishment. Even though Europe was correct on the two separate accounts – that military rule is inimical to Western notions of State and that Turkey shouldn’t be offered EU membership – they used them to blaze the most destructive path possible, and the whole world will suffer for it. Typically European.
A fascinating example of two rights making a wrong….
WI”O”
Just one problem with your metaphor…Turkey, Syria, Iran, they aren’t majority Jewish. The Kurds need to start planting menorahs and yamulkas in their oppressor’s capitals if they want the UN to get angry about their being slaughtered.
Actually, there’s nothing wrong with WiO comment. WiO’s comment wasn’t a metaphor and neither did it mention the UN. As to your comment, when did the UN get angry about Jews being slaughtered? I’m curious.
This is why all the anti-Israel rhetoric spouted by lefties is all BS (and just blatant anti-semitism). Other countries do the exact same thing, if not worse, and no one seems to care. Try being a Falun Gong in China.
And from what I’ve seen of the PKK, the are far less terrorists and more like guerillas.
As a signatory of the Chemical Weapons Convention, Turkey is obliged to receive challenge inspections at any site whether declared or undeclared. Isn’t that a possible next step?
This doesn’t read right. We are given two pieces of information here: an assertion by a not-disinterested party that chemical weapons were used (in suppression of a minority group), and a statement that Der Speigal obtained photographs of very burned bodies. What chemical weapon was supposed to have been used? What chemical weapon produces burned bodies? We are given no information about either, which leads me to be very suspicious about this article. Chemical weapons target human beings–their skin and internal systems, not their clothes. One idea is that the allegation is really that the Turks have used napalm, circuitously arguing that since napalm is made up of chemicals its use is that of a chemical weapon. The other is that someone has become excited about horribly mangled corpses and revived an oft-made claim that the Turks have sooper-dooper powers, and that these must be chemical weapons (and so they should be investigated!). A more likely, plausible, and Occam-satisfying explanation (assuming the Turkish military was engaging Kurdish guerrillas) is that someone blew something up. Fire occurs as part of explosions, particularly if the target is surrounded by ammunition or fuel. Can we get verification of some of the basic claims before Pajamas Media (which has gathered a good reputation so far) jumps breathlessly on the idea that the Turks have chemical weapons, please?
The way I read this article, Kern is not accusing Turkey of using chemical weapons. He’s simply writing about a story that has received a lot of coverage in the German and Israeli press over the last few weeks, but not in the US.
He also points out, rightly so, that if Israel were blamed for using chemical weapons, regardless of whether or not the allegations had any basis in reality, the MSM would be all over this story, demanding an international investigation into Israeli war crimes. But since it’s Turkey, the MSM doesn’t care.
Anyway, this is what Pajamas Media has always been about, covering stories that the MSM doesn’t. Keep up the good work.
Did it ever occur to you Dick that the Turks used chemicals weapons followed by conventional weapons? If you are going to invoke Occam’s Razor you should know something of what you are talking about. It might also help if you learned to read. Pajamas Media made no claim that Turkey was using chemical weapons. Had you bothered to actually read the first paragraph you would have read that Der Spiegel made the claim.
A good article bringing this to everyone’s attention would critique the Der Speigal article as I did. Perhaps the ‘legacy media’ (a better term than ‘mainstream’) isn’t covering this because…they get that Der Speigal has been had over “burns” when chemical weapons don’t cause “burns.”
“According to eyewitnesses cited by Die Tageszeitung, eight PKK fighters tried to escape by hiding in a nearby cave. But they were soon discovered by Turkish troops, who proceeded to fire artillery shells, allegedly laden with poison gas, into the cave. Turkish troops later pulled the lifeless bodies from the cave, sprayed them with bullets, and then drove over them with their tanks.”
I wonder how many signs of burning would remain after all being – allegedly – poisoned, sprayed with bullets and run over with tanks?
I’m no fan of the current Turkish government, but keep in mind that leftists routinely make up accusations like this based on little more than photos of normal decomposition. They count on the ignorance of lay people about the actual appearance of a decomposing body to let them pass off normal processes as the result of chemical weapons.
Also note that the supposed evidence in this case is a photo of BURNT remains. The dead most likely died of smoke inhalation — not, technically, a chemical weapon — or burnt to death. Only the most sophisticated autopsy would reveal the truth; instead all we have is the word of a local hospital that “chemical substances” were involved — gasoline? napalm? other incendiaries?
All the Germans have been able to validate is that the photos have not been doctored — which is OK as far as it goes, but does not at all answer whether the picture shows what it claims to show.
Again, not at all a supporter of the Turks, but keep I’ve seen this script acted out before.
Agree with earlier poster. Burning and maiming are not signatures of chemical weapons as most people would define…which include the sophisticated anti-cholinergics such as Sarin…which are not pleasant ways to die but are not maiming and burning. Even the more unsophisticated chemical weapons such as mustard gas do most of their damage internally…
No reason to give the Turks a break if they are shooting, blowing up, etc. the Kurds, but it isn’t helpful either to accuse them of using something they are not.
Burning and maiming are not signatures of chemical weapons use but they are also not proof that chemical weapons were not used.
It would also help if you actually knew something about chemical weapons. Sarin is not an anticholinergic as it does not inhibit acetylcholine. If it was atropine would be useless as an antidote.
The important question that nobody seems intelligent enough to ask and would cast doubt on the claims of chemical weapons is how did a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention with no declared stockpile acquire or manufacture chemical weapons? Only an idiot would comment on photos that they’ve never seen, yet we have a few comments by the “experts” who can’t read and have no clue what sarin actually is.
Why does Turkey’s war on the Kurds go unreported in the MSM. I understand that MSM is really a propaganda arm of the CIA. But why is it ok to constantly bash Israel with made-up paliwood theater but completely ignore and bury anything concerning Turkey or Saudia or Egypt or Sudan and on and on. Why is the CIA-MSM so completely beholden to the islamo-nazis?
Armitage,
“What chemical weapon produces burned bodies?”
Blister agents.
You can tell certain “burn wounds” are from poison gas via photographs.
Note this link is not work safe:
http://mustardgas.org/photos.htm
I really don’t understand, but I’m kinda stupid anyway.
Learn to spell ahmed.
“burning and maming” sort of go hand in hand with terroism for me. Chemical weapons are baned by world powers for a reason.
“Chemical” weapon could mean anything. Carbon tetrachloride for example has long been used as a varmint gas. Its poured into a varmint hole
where it suffocates its victim. Other things could be used likewise: ether, lp gas, butane, even alcohol fumes. These have the further advantage of being highly flammable, with explosive capabilities.
Sometimes thinking makes my head hurt.
Allah does not require thinking when performing Salat. Hitting your head against the floor 5 times a day will cause discomfort and brain damage, but so what? Allah is not interested in your whining about not being able to think or that your head hurts. Allah is only interested in your submission and obedience, ahmed.
Kinda gives new meaning to the frase “kurds and whey”
How about giving the Kurds some small tactical nuclear weapons and see how Turkey and Iran like it?
I assume Der Speigel was trying to get some attention to Turkey’s war against the Kurds by citing chemical weapons. The MSM ignores Turkish military violations of Iraqi Kurdistan’s sovereignty using ‘targeted’ airstrikes against the PKK where thousands of Kurds are now refugees.
from the Kurdish Aspect on August 5, 2010: http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc080410JH.html
“…The Turkish government recently announced plans to dispatch a new, professionalised ‘special army’ to fight the PKK along the Iraqi border and to build 150 new military outposts in the area. The U.S. has also started opening wider swathes of Iraqi airspace to facilitate Turkish attacks on the PKK.
“We are looking at additional ways that we can provide assistance to Turkey, including weapons platforms,” outgoing U.S. ambassador to Turkey James Jeffrey recently said. “We are basically trying to get as much as possible for Turkey, as quickly as possible.” …”
Ambassador Jeffrey’s next assignment is Baghdad.
Turkey’s 90-year Kemalist quest to Turkify the Kurds is a failure.
Turkey’s new friendship with Syria and Iran is partly to coordinate against the Kurds.
The greatest success of our Iraqi quagmire has been to finally give the Iraqi Kurds the sovereignty they, of all the peoples of the world, have earned.
Of course, Greater Kurdistan would control most of the water resources of the four occupiers…
But, the U.S. should not be arming Turkey to kill Kurds.
Biological and chemical weapons are not only just wrong but they also can hurt a person.
Isn’t napalm considered a “chemical weapon” by the UN?
That seems the most likely candidate for what might have been used.
I’m thinking of maybe going out for Halloween dressed as a nuclear warhead. Pretty scary stuff. Yeah.
Go away. Mods, can we do something about this, please.
Arms are for hugging and not for fighting.
A small poem by, I think, Hillaire Belloc.
Pale Ebeneezer thought it wrong to fight,
But Roaring Bill (who killed him) thought it right.
Just urge the US to have the UN investigate the charges! Let us see the bodies! Let’s get some facts. No speculations, please. Let’s get the ball rolling here! Write your Senators and Congressmen.
Sometimes a really yearn for a moment to explore my feminine sides. War is not the anser, people. Muslims are our brothers and sisters, not people to condemn or hatred. Some of my best friends are muslims and thats the truth. Islam means peace and brotherhood. Up with people! Of every crede, nationality, gender, sexual orientalism, country, religion, color, age, and crede.
There are no “chemical weapons” that cause “burned bodies”. Mustard and Lewisite cause severe blisters, not burns. The difference is immediately obvious. The organophosphorous nerve agents (Tabun, Sarin, Soman, VX and their various analogues) kill through inhibition of acetylcholinesterase, leading in most cases to respiratory failure. Older agents like the “blood agents” (e.g., cyanogen chloride, hydrogen cyanide) also cause respiratory failure. Vomiting agents (e.g., Adamsite) and lachrymatory agents (CS or “tear gas”) usually don’t kill at all.
My gut feel is that we are talking about white phosphorous, i.e. artillery smoke projectiles. That is definitely the sort of thing that would be used in battle, and phosphorous does cause horrific burns. However, while “chemical” in nature, they are not CW because the definition of CW according to Article II of the Chemical Weapons Convention exempts toxic chemicals that are used for military purposes not connected with their toxic properties. In other words, because WP smoke rounds are used for producing smoke rather than poisoning people (which would be very, very hard to do with a unitary shell containing a solid mass of phosphorous), they are not deemed CW. This may sound like a distinction without a difference, but take the example of dimethyl hydrazine, an extremely toxic rocket fuel – if you’re not using it to poison people, it’s not a CW.
The CWC allows for “investigations of allegations of use of CW”, but the allegation has to be levied by a state. Unless a state accuses Turkey of using CW, the OPCW can’t act. If it does act, the allegedly affected human remains will have to be examined. There are obvious and highly distinctive environmental and biological markers for blister and nerve agents; if they were used, the use will be discovered.
I wonder if the civilized countries who are NATO members (i.e. all of them except Erdoganistan) will have the guts to kick this gang of arab-wannabes out of the alliance if these allegations turn out to be proven true through an investigation. That would be the least they should do.
The Turks have had it in for the Kurds for a very long time. Likewise the Iraqi Sunni and Shiite alike. They are truly the bastard step-children of the Middle East. What makes this conflict different? It’s the fact that Islamic societies do not have the same concept of peace as most other major religions.
To a Christian, peace happens when you understand and love your neighbor. To a Jew peace happens when there is justice for everyone. To a Muslim, peace happens when you Submit to their authority. Notice the difference?
Do you know what’s really weird? When Turkey was Israel’s friend, and a friend to the West, many of us kept quiet about its treatment of the Kurds, and I seem to remember the deafening silence when we were asked to condemn the Armenian Holocaust – Israel included. Now…. volte face. Wrong reasons, just because Turkey fell out with Israel at the time of the flotilla, and they are now an Islamist country. Not a very believable message to the world, yet again, when we need all the friends we can get.
So you won’t be surprised if many people who did not keep quiet about Turkey’s atrocities take our “change of heart” with huge sackfuls of salt.
Wake up folks, please. It isn’t only about Israel and Jews and the Holocaust in Europe. The Armenian Holocaust deserves to be recognised on a par with what happened in Europe – and never mind the numbers game. It needs to be condemned just as vigorously. We also need to stop this terrible behaviour of playing every end against the middle to get what we want out of it, too.
Well said Norman, indiscriminate murder of any group by a nation should be called out. But then do remember, alienating forces must be modified or eradicated, for the Humanist utopia to be fulfilled.
BTW, Turkey has been ‘Islamicist’ for thousands of years now. Just because they were not attacking Israel literally doesn’t mean that they weren’t undermining Israel in other ways. I will give Erdogan this: At least the bugger’s honest. “There is no moderate Islam, there is only Islam.” (Erdogan of Turkey)
Should Israel inform Turkey that if they don’t back off Israel will openly call for committees of enquiry investigating whether war crimes were committed against the Kurds?
Should Israel inform Turkey that if they don’t back off Israel will openly call for committees of enquiry investigating whether genocide was committed against the Armenians?
Should Israel inform Turkey that if they don’t back off Israel will openly call for committees of enquiry investigating whether Turkey is guilty of human rights offences in Turkey?
Should it do it anyway irrespective of Turkey’s behaviour towards Israel?
SAUCE FOR THE GOOSE. SAUCE FOR THE GANDER.
I don’t know why the world ignores this fact, all nations knows that the Kurd have been persecuted by the Turkish GOV. we all know what is happening in Kurdish regions in Turkey, the Kurds suffered enough from from the Turks, Arabs and Iran and still suffering every single moment…………..
I do expect every thing from the Turks not only chemical weapons!!
I don’t know why all Islamic countries are crying for Palestine and they hate to hear the Free Kurdish Land…….
the Turks sent a ship to Gaza under the name of humanities Aid, on the other hand it persecutes the Kurds in their own land
As any non muslim should know by now, islam has no qualms about how they kill you. And the “tolerant” infidels have no recourse except to be killed. What time will it be when the world wakes up?
progressoverpeace says in Post @3
“We can thank the EU for a good part of this. They were the idiots who forced Turkey to change its Constitution, in 2003, to take supreme power away from the secular military (as the EU rightfully noted that this sort of governmental structure was antithetical to Western values of State) in order to be considered for membership in the EU – which the EU never intended to offer Turkey, also correctly. From that official diminishment the EU forced Turkey to take away the one mechanism that had kept it passably sane since its establishment. Even though Europe was correct on the two separate accounts – that military rule is inimical to Western notions of State and that Turkey shouldn’t be offered EU membership – they used them to blaze the most destructive path possible, and the whole world will suffer for it. Typically European.”
No it’s a tenet of the Humanist Manifesto 2, specifically Tenet #8.
EIGHTH: We are committed to an open and democratic society. We must extend participatory democracy in its true sense to the economy, the school, the family, the workplace, and voluntary associations. Decision-making must be decentralized to include widespread involvement of people at all levels – social, political, and economic. All persons should have a voice in developing the values and goals that determine their lives. Institutions should be responsive to expressed desires and needs. The conditions of work, education, devotion, and play should be humanized. *Alienating forces should be modified or eradicated and bureaucratic structures should be held to a minimum. People are more important than decalogues, rules, proscriptions, or regulations.*
Notice the term ‘alienating forces’ and what should happen to them. They should be MODIFIED (changed so as to be harmless to the godless humanists) or ERADICATED (If they refuse to be modified, KILL EM ALL.)
The EU unloads joy-juice in its collective pants every time one of the tenets of this piece of crap is implemented.
jdkchem says:
Burning and maiming are not signatures of chemical weapons use but they are also not proof that chemical weapons were not used.
It would also help if you actually knew something about chemical weapons. Sarin is not an anticholinergic as it does not inhibit acetylcholine. If it was atropine would be useless as an antidote.
The important question that nobody seems intelligent enough to ask and would cast doubt on the claims of chemical weapons is how did a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention with no declared stockpile acquire or manufacture chemical weapons? Only an idiot would comment on photos that they’ve never seen, yet we have a few comments by the “experts” who can’t read and have no clue what sarin actually is.
DUDE…do you honestly think that just because Turkey SAYS they have no chemical weapons that they REALLY don’t have any? Do remember that the Iraqis used chemicals against the Kurds as well. Iraq probably slipped a few over the border to their Turk allies when no one was looking.
MODERATORS: If you are going to keep making my posts disappear, as least have the guts to tell me why. I’m tired of typing only to have everything I posted disappear. If you don’t like what I have to say, tough. It’s called freedom.
Note to moderators: My apologies, I see my posts are back.
Willie Pete was my first guess. Based on my military training, Neill nailed it.
“…it seems unlikely that Der Spiegel, which is one of the largest publications in Europe, with a weekly circulation of more than one million, would publish the story without first determining its veracity.”
Although I put nothing past the Muslim extremists running the show in Turkey, the above statement is a “journalistically absurdity”
Since when does circulation size have anything to do with accuracy or honesty in reporting?
Global warming? Racist Teabaggers? The Bush National Guard Documents?
American hazing incidents elevated to “war crimes” status while full-on murders and beheadings are never mentioned. All delivered by entities with pretty wide circulations as I recall.
EVIDENCE is what I want. Generalities like “bodies scarcely recognizable as human beings” is a nonesensical statement based on emotion.
Conventional artillery/mortar shells, followed by bullets, then being run over by armoured vehicles, would mangle a body fairly well into “Scarcely recognizable” condition in my experience. Particularly so if fire, from any conventional source (like gasoline?) was used in anger/revenge/celebration at some point in the process. (see US contractors hanging from Iraq bridge)
Photographs of the aftermath would be ghastly sight indeed, but useless in determining what happened.
Road kill looks like road kill. Bullet, bomb, or bumper, its a mess.
Without forensics, pictures of it are useless.
Just a few things to get off my chest:
Although acidents can and do happen, we must remember always that the USA is a free trade, open country. Power resides in the hands of ordinary citizens who have the guts to make and take risks that are associated with them. Politicians, judges, and elected officials are the only protection we have to keep us from the mercy of the corruption of communism and despotism.
Americans have the God-given ability to rise to power on and because of their own merits, irregardless of imperialism and hegemony. This is not an accident. The Americans financed both the first and second world wars to stem the nazi rise to power and the communist agenda . They did this to set the stage for democracy. After the war they gained the ability to purchase the resources and provide protection for the world at large.
Our country is made up of heroic, brave, and wise leaders who will not capitulate to war mongering, corrupt dictators. God bless America. Long may she rain.
Is this some sort of retaliation to Turkey? I remember Turkey had sent a strong message against Israel attack on a Turkish ship full of terrorist. Now, they are on the defense now and worst accused of using banned substance.
The PKK has been waging a terrorist war against Turkey for decades. At one point Turkey had to threatern war against Syria to get that state to close down terrorist bases for the PKK. If the Iraqi Kurds are going to let the PKK set up bases in their territory for terrorists attacking Turkey then I do not see why Turkey should not go in and destroy those bases.
Of course Erdogan and his pals have gone over to the terrorists’ side in re: Israel and, perhaps, Iraq. They are cozying up to Iran, home of the terror masters. If ERdpgan and his pals don’t like being on the receiving end of terrorism maybe they ought not to go round supporting terrorists operating against others.
As for this story, I do not see that any case for CW use has yet been made. So far it sounds like PKK smears at Turkey. It is possible that the Turks have used CW but an accusation needs evidence, which isn’t here. As has been pointed out above, those bodies do not sound like CW caused deaths. And yes, Der Spiegel can get that wrong. Huge circulation news outfits are constantly getting things wrong, often deliberately, about Israel’s and the USA’s military operations.
As for the incipient Iran-Turk alliance, that has got to raise a laugh. Turks are almost all Sunnis, the Iranian Persians Shi’a. They have an hisotrical legacy towards each other rather like that between the French and the Germans, mixed in with ancient religious hatreds. Iran and the Turks spent three centuries carrying on periodic wars against each other. For even more centuries the rulers of Anatolia and those of Persia fought each other, back to Roman/Parthian times. Right now they have some mutual enemies: the USA and Israel. That is not likely to last, and if (G-d forbid) the Muslim extremists of both flavors got their wish to destroy Israel, it would unleash a gigantic intra-Muslim war in the region to determine who would be the El Jefe of the new Middle East. That is, of course, if Israel’s Samson Option left anything but glowing rubble to fight over.
These Islamists are going to provoke a war that will destroy everything. Stupid twits.
I would seriously doubt that Turkey was doing anything strange. I have visited the country and find it and the people very much similar to the US.
First of all, I don’t believe Islamists are intentionally provoking a war. I wish people in this U.S. of A would get a grip and learn how to get along. I’ve stated this on other posts and people just don’t get the message, or don’t want to hear it.
I wouldn’t be too keen on taking the Marxist PKK’s side of the story. Now I understand everyone here might have their reservations with Turkey, considering their east-ward geopolitical trend, their behaviors towards Israel and Ottoman History (which I find to be silly that people here would still be angry about, seeing that Ottoman conquests happened more than five centuries ago).
I may disagree with what the Turks did to Israel last May with the Gaza Flotilla, but do we really want to support a terrorist group, such as the PKK, who are infamously known for attacking civilian targets and oil pipe-lines in Caucasus? The PKK are Marxist terrorists that have been a thorn on the side of the Turkey since the late-70s, even back when Turkey was governed secular leaders and the Secular Kemalist Military, the PKK were still dangerous bastards who were in bed with the soviets.
Also, Kurds are every bit as Muslim as the Turks are, perhaps moreso than the Turks since Kurds have yet to take up the many aspects of European culture, unlike the Turks of Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara. So the “Islamo-Nazi” argument is pretty weak.