In Indiana: Pass Go and Collect Your Voucher
However, another Christian teacher in the same school district has a very different take on the religion issues in regards to constitutionality. James Kendall said, “From my understanding…the current court precedent is that it does not violate church-state issues. My personal view is that the parent is the primary educator of the child. The vast majority of parents choose to send their kids to public education. But the parents have the prerogative to teach their kids through home school, charter school, or religious-based school. The voucher program is the government stepping in to assist parents in being the primary educator of their children.”
Scott Gant, a teacher who taught in both public schools and at a Christian private school in Indiana, spoke out in even stronger terms against those raising the religion issue: “Separation of church and state is not a phrasing in the Constitution. It’s a highly charged, politicized phrase that is a red herring. As long as they are being taught what the state requires to be taught, and parents are choosing their school, then the government isn’t forcing religion.”
One of the reasons Catholic institutions have become so popular for the voucher program is that they have a much higher percentage of schools officially accredited. Also, most secular and Protestant private schools aren’t as established as their Catholic counterparts. However, as more parents learn about these vouchers, you might see more students trying some of the non-Catholic private school choices.
While the exodus from public to private schools is mostly felt in urban areas, even some smaller school districts have seen an increase in Catholic school numbers. So far the numbers leaving public schools is such a small percentage compared to the whole that some school districts aren’t even noticing it. Yet to small Catholic and other private schools, an increase in 10-30 students is huge and can mean new teachers being hired. Kendall said,
No one that I know of (in Vigo County) public schools has mentioned numbers down because of the voucher program. But I have heard Catholic schools in the area are growing from the new voucher program.
Sara Guth, principle of St. Bernard School in Rockport, has said the voucher program was an answer to prayers and that the school has been inundated with calls from parents ever since the voucher program passed. The principal of Bethany Christian School in Goshen said they have 26 new students and have hired a new part time teacher. Holy Family in South Bend, according to their principal, has 25 new students and hired two new teachers.
Separation of Church and state shouldn’t be an issue for exactly the reason Mr. James Kendall pointed out in this article. No one is forcing these parents to enroll their child in a parochial school. The parents are choosing to do it.
To me, the logical answer seems to be, figure out how much the state is spending per student for education and then offer that amount in a voucher program.
Each parent can then decide whether to let the state send that money to the public schools or whether to collect it themselves to home school their child (to pay for books or online courses or whatever) or use it to pay all or part of the tuition for a private or parochial school.
Going this route, public schools would slowly shrink. They would still be there, offering that free and fair education that is mentioned in all or most state Constitutions but there would be all kinds of competition that would force all the schools, public, private or parochial, to step up their game with whatever resources they have.
If the government were to offer a voucher equal to the amount they spend per child on education, the joy experienced the the staff of Catholic schools could probably only be surpassed by that of the Second Coming of Christ! Considering that they educate kids for a fraction of what’s spent by public schools, that would be a welcome gift, indeed.
If the taxpayer knew the whole story, they’d bed DEMANDING vouchers as a cost-effective alternative to public schools.
Nobody brings up those concerns about “church and state” when college students use federal guaranteed loans or grants to attend church-affiliated colleges.
This is nothing but a turf battle, and it’s all about the teachers’ unions, school administrators, and governmental bodies wanting to keep money and power in their own hands.
From the article, as stated by a teacher – “So public schools need to be as good as possible, and one of the ways to do that is that they have full funding”. I.e., you can send the kids to charter schools, as long as we don’t lose any funding. It’s all about the money (and power).
The separation of church and state argument is an excuse to maintain a failing status quo, not a valid reason to oppose vouchers. Most people that are using their vouchers to send their children to Catholic (or other non-tax paid) schools are concerned about their children’s educational achievement and about the values that they will learn. Public schools are failing in both respects.
The argument that money being taken from public schools is a problem makes me openly question people’s intelligence. If the public schools have fewer students to teach, but they still need to spend the same amount of money, then that is a clear indictment of the government educational model, not an argument against vouchers.
“The argument that money being taken from public schools is a problem makes me openly question people’s intelligence. If the public schools have fewer students to teach, but they still need to spend the same amount of money, then that is a clear indictment of the government educational model, not an argument against vouchers.”
EXACTLY! If the public schools have 3200 less students, they don’t need as much money to teach the remaining students. This would appear to be self-evident but remarks like the quoted ones appear repeatedly in the article without being refuted – until now. Good on you Charles for seeing this and shame on all who failed to see the illogic of these remarks.
I can’t speak for Indiana, but here in New York the public schools are drowning in money. The oceans of money that have been and are being poured on them have corrupted them utterly; education is sloughed in preference for the quest for ever more “programs,” budget increases, and the prestige that goes with being opulently funded.
I commonly hear from my neighbors with school-age children that their kids are under-educated — that however luxurious the school buildings, generously staffed the schools, and lavishly equipped the classrooms, they’re not being taught the basics. Most are unable to write a comprehensible, coherent paragraph. Most are ignorant about basic American history. Indeed, I’ve met tenth graders of normal intelligence, from middle and upper-middle-class families, who can’t add two fractions correctly. But my school district spends over $20,000 per student per year and demands budget (and tax) increases every year.
The problem is excess funding, which has synergized with the race to add education-irrelevant — nay, education-destructive! — “programs” to the public schools. The schools must be put on an austerity diet — real austerity, not just no buses and no free lunches! — and forced to sink or swim. If they sink, private alternatives will emerge to replace them.
Indeed, I’ve met tenth graders of normal intelligence, from middle and upper-middle-class families, who can’t add two fractions correctly.
It’s worse than that, MUCH worse.
I saw a game show episode where the contestant was a woman who looked to be the age of a recent high school graduate. She was asked to name one of the three ships that sailed on Columbus’ first voyage to the New World. Her answer? The Titanic!
I remember reading about a quiz completed by high school seniors in south Texas who were asked to identify the country immediately south of them. Their answers were all over the map – literally – and included Guatemala, Brazil, and, France. Yes folks, just get in your car and drive south from a major Texas city of your choice and you will soon see the Eiffel Tower!
The trouble is not confined to America. In Britain, which also spends heavily on its education system, a British psychiatrist and essayist asked many hundreds of his patients a few general knowledge questions to get a sense of these individuals. Of all these many hundreds of patients, and counting only those who had their entire education in Britain, only two could correctly identify the years in which World War II began and ended (1939 and 1945 respectively in Britain.) Guesses ranged from 1914 to 1960. Of the same hundreds of people who were asked to multiply 6 by 7, only a half dozen gave the correct number. The same psychiatrist reported that most British students knew only two British prime ministers, Tony Blair (who was the prime minister at the time) and Margaret Thatcher, who I presume was frequently demonized by the leftists in the school system. Typical assignments in history classes call for students to imagine their lives as French farmer’s wives in the 14th century or African slaves in the 18th century but those same courses gave absolutely no shred of context to enable that assignment since students knew nothing whatsoever about what was going on in the world in terms of wars or trade or technology. I have no doubt that at least some of the students imagining the life of a French farm wife in the 14th century depicted her watching television after a long day of driving the tractor around the fields even though this was centuries before either televisions or tractors had been invented.
I personally saw an inquiry on a World War II newsgroup in which an obviously young (high school age?) individual said he had been told by his teacher that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor because of the internment of Japanese-Americans; he wanted to know more about this. Everyone on the newsgroup hastened to tell him that he had the cart before the horse and that internment had been a consequence of the Japanese attack, not a cause, but I remember wondering how on earth a teacher could give such blatant misinformation to students.
If there is anything more shameful than raising children to be so appallingly ignorant, I have yet to hear it. How can that possibly bode well for our civilization?
Those who oppose school choice don’t have a legal leg to stand on regarding the issue of public money flowing to religious organizations. It does that every day, in Medicare & Medicaid payments to hospitals, in grants and tax breaks for charitable organizations of every shape and size.
The anti-voucher crowd focuses on the topic of religious indoctrination to avoid discussing the second (and bigger) issue mentioned in the article- how to argue public schools are better while at the same time admitting that they need “protectionism”.
The fact is, educational reform is long overdue and everyone knows it. Public education has brought this situation down on itself by allowing the unions to take control, since they fight nearly every attempt at serious educational reform as that would mean teachers must be accountable for how they teach.
But parents can’t wait any longer. The phrase, “They grow up so fast,” in this situation is less a wistful reminder that one needs to cherish one’s time with their children than it is a warning to parents that they need to do something about their kids’ education NOW. ANd the fastest way to do that is to opt out of public education and into a private school.
Now, if I could only get a voucher to pay myself for those years of homeschooling….
the public schools need competition. The teachers and their unions should not control the education system. CHOICE IS NEEDED.
Several years ago I did a paper on school choice. In it I sighted a congressional hearing on an experiment in one of Americas worst school districts (in a large northeastern city). Instead of vouchers they extended elementary school until eight grade (like some private schools) and got rid of middle school all together. Guess what they found:
violence went down
pregnancy rates went down
bullying went down
drug abuse went down
crime went down
test scores went up
parental involvement went up
Why, some might ask? Some of the reasons were because children were in the same school for eight years the teacher had a better chance of actually getting to know them. They could pass on information to teachers in other grades or research a problem personally. Teachers also could tell if a child was behaving differently and get the jump on problems before they got out of hand. A side benefit was that most children had siblings in the same school so parents were better informed about school generally and their child specifically. The children were not pushed into a situation where they were dropped into an uncomfortable place with others they didn’t know at a time when they are emotionally fragile and trying to sort out who they are and what they want. The structure helped to ground them keeping many from acting out or making mistakes that could have been unfortunate.
Did the education establishment sign on to this, just one of the many successes reformers have tried to put into work. Absolutely not. The establishment is dedicated to the status quo just with more money. They can’t be wrong, they’re more educated and smarter than all of us put together.
Just ask them.
Believe it or not, the field of education does very little research. As a scientist, this was very shocking to me- I don’t know of any human endeavor that doesn’t aim to improve itself by engaging in empirical studies…
… except, perhaps, theology.
I guess that tells us how these educators view themselves.
They don’t need to do any research. They are liberals with theories.
I believe this. When I was a kid I went to a k-8 school. There was virtually no violence and you grew up with everybody. Just when I was ready to be the big kid in the school they build a junior high. That place took the 7th and 8th graders from at least a dozen of the districts schools. It was one of the most violent places I ever had the misfortune to be in. Instead of being in a school with people you grew up with you get thrown into an environment with strangers at the most hormonally charged times in their lives. Conflicts on so many levels were inevitable. Man I hated that place! My grades went from straight A’s to straight D’s. I’m not sure I ever recovered from that. I surely had no desire to go on to college – though I did decades later.
Really? Cool! Where did you sight it? Was it wandering around loose somewhere in D.C.? Or did you sight it in one of the Capitol buildings somewhere? Did you report the sighting?
Sight.
Cite.
Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.
Where would we all be without grammar Nazis?
“Where would we all be without grammar Nazis?”
Communicating more clearly? Better understood? Less of a laughing-stock?
No matter how many vouchers you hand out, if you have lousy parents you are going to have lousy students. Sending these lousy students to a different school will only make them lousy students in another school. Parents MUST take an active role in the education of their children. I’m not saying all parents have to be certified teachers, but they have to make sure their kids go to school, stay in school, do their homework, and take school seriously. If parents don’t do this, the kids will simply react to this lack of discipline at home and will ignore school, any school. Even private schools can only do so much if there is no motivation to learn. So, while vouchers are a good start, parents must accept some responsibility for raising their own kids. They just can’t hand off these responsibilities to the schools and then ignore their kids. No school will be able to overcome that.
Why does it matter whether one attends a religious school or not? Isn’t the most important thing that the students actually learn?
If attending a religious school with dollars funneled through the tax machine is such a problem, then let’s allow parents to opt-out of paying taxes for public schools provided they send their children to an alternative school or are home-schooled. Actually, that would be much better.
“Why does it matter whether one attends a religious school or not? Isn’t the most important thing that the students actually learn?”
You’re actually opening a huge can of worms with that question.
How would you feel about the Muslims next door sending their sons to a madrassa where all they learn is Islam and the art of jihad but don’t learn reading, writing, history, mathematics, etc.? (Their daughters wouldn’t go to school at all, since eduation isn’t appropriate for girls in their view.) How would you feel if your atheist neighbors spend your tax dollars teaching their children to be atheists or your fundamentalist Christian neighbors spent your tax money teaching their children creationism instead of evolution?
In my opinion, the publicly funded part of education, whether it takes place in public schools, private schools, or other venues, should NOT touch religion except perhaps some kind of very general, strictly neutral survey course that explores the basic beliefs of various major religions. Aside from that – and I could see an argument that forbade even that – schools should NOT be teaching any aspect of religion. Schools should confine themselves to teaching fact-based material, like reading, math, science, history, etc. Faith-based material, otherwise known as religion, should be funded entirely by the parents. I think it is very very wrong to teach any specific religion as if it were a fact, the way math or science are.
I think any reasonable person would acknowledge that his religion – or his atheism – is not provable in the way that math or science are. An atheist can no more disprove the existence of a deity than a religion can prove the existence of that deity. Let’s not make the huge mistake of passing off matters of belief as matters of fact.
I accept that parents have the right to indoctrinate their children in their family’s faith (or faiths) but I feel very strongly that my tax money should NOT be used to teach something that is a matter of faith rather than a matter of fact. Let the parents send the children to some kind of after-school religious program if they are so inclined but don’t make ME pay for it.
As a lawyer, I can assure you all that there is no church/state issue. The Supreme Court has already ruled indirectly, that if the voucher goes from the state to the parent, and the parent then makes the decision where to spend the money, there is no conflict. A conflict arises only where the state sends the money directly to the school.
Get over it libs.
Again, the word “progressive” is really “regressive”…What is missing in the public school system is simple: DISCIPLINE..Private schools do not put up with crap from the “little darlings” which the public school system will not deal with…Getting rid of The Department of NON-EDUCATION would be a good start. I attended both public and private schools and I would never want to go back to a typical “inner city” school with their gang mentality and making fun of students who actually want to get a good education. The teachers I knew were decent but had no control over their classrooms and could not even kick the dis-ruptive “precious” ones out of their classes. The parents are the WORST and think their kids can do no wrong and always threaten to “sue” everybody if anyone even suggests their kid is a troublemaker. Private schools are not perfect and there are a lot of “spoiled brats” but the school does instill “discipline” and actually expels the rotten apples…Until we put the blame where it actually belongs (on the student) all the “systems” or money in the world or teacher accountability will never work. Here’s a clue: Kids..attend class, do your homework, shut the hell up and listen and respect others.
“Until we put the blame where it actually belongs (on the student) all the “systems” or money in the world or teacher accountability will never work.”
Come on now, you can’t really be serious. It was the politicans who teeded up the schools for the trial lawyers and the teachers unions into a way to loot the taxpayers and last time I checked most of them were voted into office by not only the teachers and the trial lawyers but millions of stupid voters, none of which were “students’.
Of course the public schools are afraid of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the only institution large enough to compete with them directly. Any district with a significant Catholic population is bound to have at least half as many Catholic schools as public schools.
While that was once incontrovertibly true from coast to coast, there have been countermeasures by local public schools and local governments: sharp increases in school taxes, zoning, and aggressive regulation of school buildings. (So far, private-school teachers are themselves largely unregulated.) When those disincentives to private schooling go high enough, it no longer matters how many Catholics there are in a district: the families will be unable to afford a private education for their kids and will either homeschool or (reluctantly) send their kids to the public school.
It is noteworthy that, while local governments remain largely unwilling to act against churches themselves (though you can tell the temptation is there), their relentless assaults on church-associated schools have been committed openly — as the saying goes, right out in front of God and everybody. I’ve been called paranoid for suspecting collusion among educrats’ unions, militant anti-religious groups, and local governments, but as another saying goes, it doesn’t matter if you’re paranoid if they’re really out to get you!
I don’t know abut all that.
The history is: Catholic schools came about because “public” schools used to be “Protestant” schools. Catholic parents didn’t want their children to be “mistaught” (in their opinion) Christianity. Since nuns ran the schools, tuition was very low. But there aren’t many teaching orders any more (though the Nashville Dominicans are growing) and lay teachers are paid a salary. Also, Protestantism can’t be taught in schools any more (a little bit of “what goes around, comes around’, if you ask me) so we don’t have to worry about our children being “mistaught” Christianity (again, in our opinion). Catholic schools then had to make sure they were providing an excellent education, in order to charge tuition. Teachers’ unions came on strong at the same time this other stuff was going on, dealing another blow to public schools.
In our region, Catholic schools routinely reject underperforming students, sending them back to public schools if performance is inadequate or refusing them entrance from the get-go. Public schools must accept all students, regardless of track record.
Using taxpayer funds for private schools of any nature, parochial or not, is a misuse of taxpayer dollars. Period.
Teachers’ union rep?
There is another way to look at this…
State governments sometimes pay employees to take early retirement. What if the employee takes that money and goes to a religious college with it? None of the state’s business, you would argue. And you would be right.
Indiana spends $7500 per year per student in public school. There are states that spend much more, and the results are pretty bad– there just isn’t any way to sugarcoat it.
Since public schools are failing and are very expensive, the state is just choosing to reduce taxpayer costs by paying parents to take their children out of public schools (If vouchers were worth $3,000, the state saves $4500 per withdrawn student.) Since there is a law that requires parents to send their children to school, there is no need for the state to stick its nose into where the child goes to school– the state’s role ends when the child is un-enrolled from the state system. Law enforcement will deal with a parent who does not enroll the child in a school somewhere in the state.
Downsizing to save millions of tax dollars is how I look at it. The state pays the parents to un-enroll, and the parents use the money to find another qualified school. None of the state’s business which school it is, as long as it is credentialed by the state. That’s what is known as a win-win. (Not much win-win going on in public schools or state government these days.)
You probably live in a middle-class or better area? Or near Catholic schools which are full enough that they’re able to screen for only the best students? Of all the Catholic schools we’ve sent our children to, children are only sent away for disciplinary problems. The level of instruction at our current school is much more demanding than the local public schools (which is usually rated rather highly nationwide among public school systems) so that many children who arrive midway or later in their elementary school years do struggle at first.
The ACLU and the left are all about the separation of church and state – unless a madrassa is involved. Then it’s cultural and they get real quiet. Never mind that most of them (one here in No. Virginia specifically) churnes out good little jihadi on a regular basis.
On the cost front, if there are less students in a public school district, wouldn’t there be less costs?? Just downsize some of the now un-needed administrative overhead.
But that’s just it. They don’t want to downsize.
I attended a workshop on educating gifted children (since all the schools were failing my kid miserably, including the private ones). OUt of a room of about thirty or forty people, there were three parents and the rest were public school teachers. Upon explaining my decision to homeschool, one of the teachers remarked that that was great for my kid, but they really needed to keep gifted kids in the system, because they need the money.
No.
If there were fewer students there would be lower costs.
…. since we’re talking about education….
Why is there a cap on families’ income to qualify for vouchers? So a family of 4 earning $70k can afford real estate taxes AND tuition for private school?
Agree. I know many families that send their kids to Jewish day schools at a cost of $10-25,000 *per child*. They pay the same taxes everyone else – taxes going to pay to support other kids’ public school education – but they get no assistance themselves.
Both Belgium and Chile have complete school choice. In Chile, they extend choice to Social Security. Can’t have that.
{A) government entirely dependant on {public} opinion looks for some security on
what that opinion should be, strives for the control of the forces that shape it, and is fearful of suffering the people to be educated in sentiments hostile to its institutions–
Lord Acton
I attended a Catholic school from 1953 to 1961. No junior high. Each grade had one teacher and one classroom. I was with the same children, for the most part, throughout my first eight years. We grew up together. The teacher (except for a lay teacher in the fourth grade)were nuns. Each teacher taught all the subjects for that grade level. These teachers were educated and capable.
I began my public school years in the fall of 1961. All the children from my school were first put into excellerated classes. Of course, it didn’t take long for me to be brought back to the general population of public level of education. I wasn’t excellerated but a little better than average. One of the joys that the public school teacher enjoyed and lamented was having to tell the Catholic schooled children they needn’t have to stand when their names were called.
If there is a market not competing with a government funded and protected monopoly like public education then I could imagine a new school system that could easily surpass the current system with a free enterprise education. All private schools also need not be religious but most would necessarly need to teach a morallity that would be opposite of public schools else why move a child there? Imorallity and education makes only for politicans.
From the article —
“What infuriates me…is that tax dollars will be and are being taken from already hurting public schools,” says Indiana public school teacher Chris Austin. “We (teachers) are trying, but when money is constantly taken from us while at the same time, we are expected to do more and more, our job becomes that much tougher. We work hard but we are not miracle workers.”
Correct my logic if it is wrong — If tax dollars (public money) was taken from public schools, it was due to the fact that less students are being enrolled in public schools. These students are now going to the voucher schools… So how are teachers being required to do more and more, if they have less students??
LOL! I caught thattoo. But it’s a math question so this teacher failed.
I’d like to know how this is a state and church issue. Vouchers is just giving people back their own money so they can make a financial decision on where they want their children educated. The state is doing NOTHING!
If I remember correctly, the “establishment of religion” thinG was more in reference to what we would call “denominations” rather than “RELIGION”. The state is not directing the voucher recipients to any particular school/church/denomination.
Also, last time I checked even parents of private school kids pay taxes, don’t they. If anything they should be getting MORE than what it costs at a private school.
Odd that no one recognizes that if fewer students attend public schools – the Public schools will not need as much money to operate.
My Opinion – funding should follow the student – and $1000 per year is a drop in the bucket – it should probably be closer to $4000 per year.
That way the Indiana Education industry gets to keep $3500 per student and the parents get a choice.
Indiana spends ~$7580 per student per year
http://www.epodunk.com/top10/per_pupil/
And keep in mind that there are a lot of us in Indiana who homeschool. We somehow manage to give our kids a great eduction and we don’t get a single dollar from the government. [Rumor has it that might change, but the wording of the new law is vague...]
Beware of Greeks bearing gifts, Robin.
Indeed. With money comes strings attached. They just can’t help themselves.
Anti-Trust the Labor Gang Monopolies break them up and make them compete against each other for labor contracts, just like the Real American Workers who work twice as hard for half as much. Why should Labor Gangs get special extortion privileges, when the rest of us don’t? What makes them so special? Isn’t everyone supposed to be treated equally under the law?
They’ve destroyed the American auto industry, they’ve destroyed the American education system, they’ve destroyed the Post Office, and they are trying to destroy American Government at the Federal, State, and Local levels.
A Labor Gang Monopoly within the Government Monopoly, you know that can’t be good. It’s like waste and corruption squared, a Monopoly within a Monopoly.
And another thing; The reason the Government Monopoly sucks so bad, is that it lacks the feedback which competition gives to free enterprise, that results in continuous improvements in quality and service.
Good for Indiana/hopefully the rest of the nation will follow.
Let’s see…government vouchers for a government controlled private school vs attending a government controlled public school.
That’s a choice?
The problem is, wherever you go, there you are. iow, the problem may not be with others [public schools] it may be with American citizens who aren’t involved with local politics …or their schools …or their kids. The problems you now see in many public schools will merely move to private schools. In a few years, you’ll all be complaining that private schools aren’t doing their job. (Many of them are questionable, now, for that matter.) iow, parents and kids are the problem…and wherever they go, they bring their problems with them.
We get the government (schools) we deserve. Remember?
Wherever you go, there you are…
It’s very difficult to run from a problem…when you are the problem.
The whole point of the public school teachers unions is that they have a monopoly and they like it that way. The public teachers unions and the politicans they keep in office own the whole process and don’t really really care if your kids learn or not.
The public schools are a Democratically controlled job bank and to confuse it with a system to educate your children is to believe their cover story. Any questions?
As said by the teacher who quoted the actual words in the Constitution, there is not a Constitutional problem in giving public money to parents to get the Government required education for their children, as long as that education meets those requirements. Unless of course there is a Constitutional requirement for separation of children and parents.
That said however, there are always unintended consequences when the Government funds anything. What may be next is many of the Islamic schools in America moving into Indiana and teaching the required curriculum as well as Sharia law. Take that you Christian religious fanatics.
We are not far away from requiring definition of the word religion in the Constitution, so we know when the Federal Government may or may not prohibit the free exercise thereof.
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