I Have Seen the Future of the Automobile — and It Sucks
If your idea of a car is something bigger than a penalty box, or more powerful than a moped, or maybe slightly fun to drive, then I suggest you get yourself down to your local dealer (assuming he hasn’t already folded), pronto, and buy yourself something pretty. It might just be your last chance for a good long while.
President Obama put his signature to new CAFE rules last week, requiring that by 2016, automakers must meet fleet-wide gas mileage averages of 39 mpg for cars and 30 for trucks. This is easy enough to accomplish — build smaller vehicles with smaller engines. Although I can tell you how well that’s going to go over here in Colorado, where getting trapped behind a Prius (or an Aveo or any other wind-up toy car) on a steep incline means growing a full beard before cresting the hill.
Now imagine a Ford F-150 trying to make it up to the Eisenhower Tunnel with a full load of construction equipment and a two-liter four-banger under the hood. You’ll have facial growth like one of the ZZ Top guys before it’s all over, maybe even if you’re a girl.
If you think I’m exaggerating, think again. The anonymous “Mechanic,” writing for Edmunds, worries that the new CAFE standards
won’t save much fuel and won’t save the planet, but they will crush the life out of the car business. From here on out, cars are going to shrink in size, shrivel in power and grow more expensive.
With a goal of a corporate fleet average of 39 mpg for cars by 2016 model year it’s not just V8s that are dead, but V6s and decent-size fours. Of course all the SUVs and the Camaro, Mustang and Corvette as we know them are doomed, that’s obvious, but so are reasonably size minivans, midsize sedans like the Accord and Camry, and anything fun.
And if you have even any small interest in seeing what’s left of Detroit survive, now would be a good time to look on Obama’s works, ye mighty, and despair. Chrysler’s plan is to somehow, someday import FIAT’s small cars. GM has never competed well in the small-car segment, and Ford can’t even sell its well-regarded “Euro Focus” domestically at a profit.
I would likely be dead if I had been driving a small car instead of a huge late 1980s Chevy. The guy who hit the back end of my car pushed the end all the way up to the back seat. People shook their heads in disbelief that I only suffered a sore tailbone for about a week. Many people are going to die because of these new CAFE standards.
True. And with your experience, the NEW CAFE standards will put people’s life at stake. The body, suspension, hydraulic tensioner, engines, drivetrain and etc. will really be in bad shape if they pursue this kind of concept.
When I came of legal driving age in the late 60′s, I had to beg and cajole the “old man” for the keys to his Dodge Polara with the “police package” option. But the opportunities drive it were few and far in between. While my neighborhood buddies were wheeling around in SS Camaros and GTOs with Tri-Power, yours truly was usng public transportation. It was until post college graduation that I could scrape together funds for a (then) cheesy Toyota. Fast forward to the present. Do you think that the fellow once known in local traffic court as “the guy with the Porsche” wants to go back to the bad old days of cheesy four bangers and “chauffered” transportation?.
Not likely, I’ve done all the tiny carbon footprints for one lifetime…
I think Obama is just trying to solve the economic downturn right now, which others may interpret it in a different way.
So we’re letting this happen because?
Thank you, Stephen Green! I freakin’ hate those Priuses and not because they might cause unwanted facial hair. Although that is worth considering.
They seem to attract two types of drivers, the “I must go 15 miles under the speed limit to further save the planet” or the “I bought a ‘green’ car so now I’m going to floor it wherever I go”. And if The Prius has Obama stickers all over the back window, do whatever it takes to get away from it. Even pull over for a while, it will save a good mood every time. Nothing worse than a “green clown” driving an underpowered tin can with limited visibility.
As I’ve said in other comments, I love my Jeep. Love it, love it, love it. If I could afford to buy a new one I would. Every week of the year. I live a in a colder climate and this year in particular we had a lot more snow. So I guess I can amend the statement above, there is nothing worse than a “green clown” driving an underpowered tin can with limited visibility and more than 8 inches of snow on the ground. There ought to be special Prius weather advisories.
And engineering talent? We have so much of that here in the USA. Let’s get them back to work. Here. Now.
Obama wants us living in large cities, dependent on public transportation and government. Living in Brady, Texas won’t be an option much longer.
Two words: Geo Metro. Revisiting the (failed) past for the look, the performance and the safety of the future….
All hail the era of the “box motor”!
I figure the business to be in over the next two decades will be in the independent automobile reseller, with a really great re-build/re-fit total care garage.
“Got an old Dodge Grand Caravan? We can make it just like new? How about that Chevy Tahoe? We can do that one TOO!!”
I have a good friend who is a Cuban exile. He would love to spend his golden years in Cuba (a free Cuba of course). Looks like Cuba is coming to him. Too bad its the old junker kept alive with spit and bailing wire.
When business decisions are made by government regulation, personal enrichment, and tax write-offs the business will ultimately fail.
The American automobile industry is dying. Ford is no more an American Corporation than Toyota is, which oddly is probably why it might survive.
I wonder what’s happening to Carmax stock? If they invest in a solid, dependable, and honest repair network to go with their dealerships… there might be good money to be made…
r/John
Always looking for the lemonade
We also have a newly-minted Secretary of Transportation (Ray LaHood), who openly states that he intends to “coerce people out of their cars” and onto public transportation. At. Any. Cost.
Leaving aside the impracticality of replacing private vehicles with “people movers” anywhere but high-density urban centers (compare and contrast; profit/loss, NYC Transit System, San Francisco BART- and that isn’t even an extreme comparison), since when is it the business of government to “coerce” citizens into not engaging in a lawful activity (i.e., moving around as they please)? Or to attempt to coerce them into transportation systems that are made to order for 24/7/365 surveillance just because government wants to do it?
(Note; Before anybody tries to accuse me of hypocrisy, I opposed the Patriot Act from the start, on the grounds that it fails the basic test of government policy; Never attempt to gain a level of political or social power you wouldn’t trust your opponents not to abuse. What goes around, comes around, and one day, if you create it, they’ll have it. Guaranteed. End Note.)
During WW II, due to the materiel’ needs of the war effort, automobile production was suspended, and fuel was rationed. This was reasonable, because the car plants were busy making tanks, trucks, etc., and every drop of fuel that could be had was needed by the military. That was an entirely rational procedure, as we were engaged in a death struggle with an enemy who wanted to enslave the world and kill substantial portions of its population, out of hand and wholesale, for purely “philosophical” reasons (that caused them considerable trouble later, at Nuremberg and elsewhere, in front of judges).
It could be argued that we are once more engaged in such a conflict, vs. radical Islam. But LaHood and The One don’t want to admit that that war even exists. Their “existential struggle” is to “save Holy Mother Gaia” from something (“global warming” alias’ “climate change”) which may not even exist, and if it does, may be a natural process we can have no noticeable effect on one way or the other.
Plus of course their own, personal animus toward American culture as a whole, which they seek to change because They. Just. Hate. It.
In their mental universe, no more justification is required.
Yes, I know LaHood is nominally a Republican. I also know that if he was anything but a “progressive”, The One would never have hired him. Party affiliation is irrelevant- what matters is the mindset of the individual in question.
And like “progressives” in general, and The One in particular, LaHood is from all indications yet another elitist with nothing but contempt for the “great unwashed”. That means you, me, and the majority of Americans, regardless of race, creed, or national origin.
My guess is that while he’s “coercing” us out of our vehicles, he’ll be keeping his chauffeur-driven limousine, complete with motorcycle escort.
After all, he is “of the elite’”. And is therefore entitled to things forbidden to the masses- like us.
clear ether
eon
#2 antonio
“those were the days my friend, we thought they’d never end…” my favourite, and fondly remembered cars were two ford crown vic “police specials” an ’87 model, followed by an ’88 model which i drove for several years on a 120 mile round trip daily commute as well as occasional trip leases to the company when needed as an armed courier. while we’re seeing the end of a era of course the political elites will still “need” big powerful cars for their entourages and bodyguards won’t they…
My son topped a hill and plowed into a three car wreck in February. Airbags and seatbelts helped, but he still would have spent some time in the hospital if he had not been driving an F150. The truck was totaled, but he walked away from it. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t be with us now if he’d been driving some little green POS.
After the incredible experiences with a poorly made GMC Sierra followed by a junky Jeep Jeep, I left the poor quality of UAW Detroit for Toyota where I get both power and quality. But, I still need to pull the boat… so, I go with the big engines. BTW, I was the guy in the rented, 4 cyl, Nissan pathfinder on the Eisenhower pass… sorry ’bout that!
geology is killing you guys.
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2167/50503.jpg
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9469/3israeltopo16december08cv3.jpg
Some people used to get all banged up, need reconstructive surgery and long recuperation periods after major accidents, now they just die. Just wait and see what happens when the green cars hit the street.
boobama may realize he needs to stick with the CAFE that bush wanted. Like just about every other bush policy
This econocar push is the other half of Obama’s ‘no drilling’ policy. He thinks that if gas costs enough that we will be forced into those rolling coffins. Guess again. I’ll keep my SUV and keep it running long after Obambi has left the scene. A good election in 2010 could give the real people a congress we can depend on. Veto proof.
looks mostly like GM is just another member of the merry band of looters that saw peak oil coming…
…GM was probably hoping, at first, that the PNAC project would rescue them… you know, by grabbing enough oil to prolong the agony for a few more years.
no such luck.
…but thank goodness GM made all those bad loans, just in case, starting about the same time the PNAC project was getting cranked up, in case the project failed and there’d be a need to disguise the fact that global oil production had peaked… duck soup, GI, just crash the global economy, destroy demand for oil, and peak oil goes away…
such a deal.
so, we’re in the middle of plan B, which seems to be panning out okay.
good enough.
now all we got to sweat out is those crazies in israel, who somehow fail to see the humor in either peak oil or global warming.
why was ditech hammering us 24/7 for years, trying to get us to borrow 125% of the value of the house we were using as collateral?
the crook that founded ditech in 1995 sold out to GMAC in 1999, which gave GMAC time enough to put together an ad campaign that convinced everyone that had a shred of equity in their shack that they should cash that equity in so they could charge more on their credit cards… the “convincing” to be accomplished by dint of non-stop 24/7 advertising on every commercial television outlet in america.
it also comes as no surprise to learn that goldman sachs, known for their creative use of derivatives, is in this caper up to their eyeballs, including manipulating the price of gasoline to help re-elect its front man, our noble and heroic ex-president, crusader bunnypants.
…and it comes as no surprise that goldman sachs becomes a partner with GM in the ditech operation in august of 2005.
…and as that fat little **** in the television commercials kept losing more and more refi jobs to ditech, greenspan was relentlessly lowering interest rates, which of course made the whole scam possible.
now about all that’s left to do is arrange a fed bailout of GM and goldman sachs, whose creative packages of homeowner debt were peddled to anyone addled enough to buy them.
and as the housing prices sink farther (as per another greenspan prediction) we can expect goldman sachs and cohorts to take advantage of the low prices, and wind up owning whatever’s left of america.
…this as demand for oil falls to the point that peak oil wont become a factor for years, possibly decades, which brings us to the whole purpose of the caper: crash the economy to disguise the fact that peak oil was the motive we did a “new pearl harbor” on ourselves on 9/11…
…as per PNAC’s wishes…
and now we’re the “benevolent global hegemon” whose benevolence has already killed a million people, and the Project for the New American Century is just getting started.
anyhow, GM quit building cars decades ago, when hucksters became more important to GM than engineers.
Neither the government nor Detroit can force upon American consumers vehicles we simply don’t want. There’s something called the marketplace at work here. What’s more, a centrally planned economy is answered, in all cases and always, by something called the black market. The rules of capitalism are immutable to the point where they should be recognized as a form of natural law, like gravity or the speed of light. Adam Smith, please take your place next to Newton and Einstein.
If the choices offered me by my local dealership don’t appeal to me, I would rather restore something from a junkyard that does. I rather suspect millions of backyard mechanics would do the same. Can you imagine the premium Americans would pay for a 1988 Volvo 240 restored and good for another 200,000 miles? Any government mandate will be met with a free market response. I see a lucrative new industry based on restoration and repair. I wonder what the going rate is these days for the purchase of a junkyard?
…but now, oil prices are going up again.
what’s up with that? are the geologic facts of life outpacing the deliberate destruction of demand for oil?
or are we being whipsawed by manipulators who are maximizing their opportunities to loot before the whole thing caves in?
Sure. And what about those of us who live in the North in bad snow areas? Those little cars are going to plow right through snow up to the bumpers, like I’ve had to a few times in the past trying to get to work before the plows got out….right?
Just like the idiot yesterday who was talking about painting rooves white and makeing roads a light colour. Uh…..in the winter, I actually WANT heat to hit my roof. And light colured roads? It is hard enough to know where you are on a snow covered road now before the snow melts off. Sure, let’s make it even more fun and make those white too! That way, we’ll won’t be able to see the road all winter. And how about the ice? Gee…a black road melts faster because it absorbes heat. So, with the white roads, we’ll just have continual ice build up, because nothing will melt as quickly, allowing us to then take a headder into the nearest ditch or telephone pole with those safe, new, lightweight cars. Really safe!
Where does Obama find these idiots?
Do the regulations apply to companies building engines but not installing them in cars? What are tbe engineering/profit margin/marketing issues involved in a third-party company building larger engines to be retrofitted into underpowered cars and trucks?
To LeighB, etc.:
1. I own a Prius. Because I’m a “full-time part-time” college teacher, and drive 300-400 miles per week during the school year. Okay?
2. I voted for McCain. I loathe Obama. I do NOT believe in anthropogenic global warming. I hate the loss of freedom. I want the freedom to buy a Prius. Or not.
3. If I’m on a two-lane road, I try to go the speed limit. I have all the power to get up a hill that I need. Needing to use that power is a different matter. Rushin’ ahead to get to the next red light is silly. The Prius has made me a much calmer, better driver. Even my wife says so. She wishes we’d have gotten it years earlier.
4. Limited visibility? Don’t know what you’re talking about.
5. Can you find another way to object to enviro-fanaticism that picking on those of us who have made considered choices for what we consider good reasons? Thank you. Civic conversation will thank you.
Fortunately we’ll all have free government health care to pay for all of the extra injuries that we’re going to incur as a result of these idiotic standards.
I’m driving my F150 until I die, the administration can bite me.
Just say no to the new GM and no to the new Chrysler. Never again.
The Prius/Aveo wind-up box will prove to be the hot-rods. I don’t know if anybody remembers the first-generation Volkswagen diesels. As, for a brief time I was forced to drive my dad’s 1980 VW Dasher diesel, I remember them all too well. While it was very good on fuel, it took forever and a half to get up to speed on flat ground.
As for the work truck, try being stuck behind a Dodge Sprinter. Even that sloth-like behemoth does not come close to the 30 mpg required of light trucks.
wadosy: when you say neocon, do you include the globalists on the left?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aItdAk5Qemo&feature=channel_page
#3 GoBusiness101 – You think? I don’t think you know how. Barry is taking over the US auto industry and dictating what cars will be sold the American public, and you “think” he is trying to solve the economic crisis!? Holy crapola! Change your handle dude, you are embarrassing!
Break the U.S.A. Out of The Imperial Genocide Trap
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2009/3621break_usa_genocide.html
I’m gonna play contrarian for a bit here. I’ve driven and ridden in several European small cars that got great mileage and went like a bat outa hell. Opel used to build a bunch of ‘em, don’t know if they still do. And they weren’t just fast in a straight line. The real problem is you just can’t get enough people and stuff in a small car to take an extended trip with friends. You have to take two cars and the fuel savings goes in the toilet. At least that’s been my experience vacationing in France and Italy.
Fellow thinkers;
Rewind back to the emergence of the automobile in America. Back in the early 1900′s–folks who had autos gradually were freed from the bounds of their towns, cities and experienced greater freedom to travel and experience the USA. Recall the effect Route 66 had on the evolution of the car, the car culture (drive ins, car hopes) and our culture as a whole. Recall the emergence of motorcycles and the freedom of movement they provided. Recall the emergence of the US Interstate System and how that increased our freedom to move and the rapidity of our travel.
The car symbolized freedom. Controlling the car means controlling freedom.
I believe US auto manufacturers have not been free to compete due to many issues not limited to UAW, CAFE and nostalgia. Hence, they’re in the shape they’re in.
Now, today–what is the current symbol of freedom that allows us to freely travel and move and experience different things just as the car did in years past. I would submit to you that that is the Internet. Vast arrays of information, video, images, knowledge and allowing us to express our opinions either anonymously, as I do, or not as this author does.
Today the internet symbolizes freedom. Controlling the internet means controlling freedom
It is vital to see that linking control of cars, internet and other symbols of American freedom is a direct threat upon freedom. First these two examples, and then, what next?
I can’t wait to see the 2010 Dodge Gremlin, Chevy Chevette, Dodge Omni and Ford Maverick–those will prove to be real hot sellers baby!
No problems, mate. I’m getting my ancient Checker Marathon restored. They’ll have to pry it loose from my cold, dead arse.
21. David WL:
Me too! Before getting my Camry Hybrid, I drove like a maniac. Now I drive slightly over the speed limit and as a result feel less frazzled after my commute. With nearly 200hp, I’ve surprised many a SUV and truck. My main motivation to getting this car was that it can go over 600 miles on a tank. I hated gassing up twice a week in my old SUV.
28. tc
What next?
They can regulate CO2 as a pollutant. Follow that everywhere it leads and you’ll be asking, “what freedom can’t they regulate into nonexistance”.
have a nice day
Wadosy
Do you know that if all the ice in world melted sea level would only raise by 40 meters? Do you know that at least 95% of it is in South Pole? Do you know that ice melts at 32F and that unless temperature in South Pole raises over this temperature it won’t contribute a single micron to sea rise? Do you know that South Pole ice is 2 miles thick, that water has a huge thermal inertia (meaning that you need looooots of energy to heat it) and that the process of changing ice into water requires 82 times more energy than heating water by 1 degree? Do you know that the only way to melt South Pole in a single century is force Earth to alter its orbit?. That thinking global warming can melt the ice in South Poler is non-sense? Do you know that the people who tell sea level is going to rise by 80 meters are either congenital idiots, fascists in grreen clothes or crookss hoping to make ze big bucks in the ecoogico-industrial complex?
Here’s something no-one’s considered: what is a family with three or more children, at least two of whom require car/booster seats or have have to sit in the back, going to do when forced to buy an econo-deathbox? Buy two? And hire a chauffer for the second one on Soccer Saturday or visits to Gramma’s house? Where does the dog go? How’bout the packing boxes from Costco?
Tough enough squeezing my one child, plus wife and two parents, into a reasonably-sized Volvo S60 to dinner without a two-car convoy. Imagine the hilarity in a Chevy Aveo, unless we strap Mom onto the roof like Aunt Edna.
Maybe I’m just a paranoid winger fitting Ma Napolitano’s extremist profile, but sounds like back-door population control policy, as well. And so much for keeping Social Security solvent.
Makes me wonder where Harley-Davidson stands in this whole issue.
Consider it–HD is a company who is pretty profitable for all I know. I believe (correct me if I’m wrong), that HD rescued itself from dire financial straits several years back by producing products that Americans want (funny that). They’re distinctly American, their products burn gas/oil, produce CO2 and can be exceedingly loud and represent a huge symbol of freedom that roars across our national landscape.
I wonder what a “green” Harley Davidson would look like? Imagine a “green” V-Rod….Hmmmmm…. ex…scuse me sir, Can I “plug in” my V-Rod into your receptacle….?
I’d love to see the Obama Administration take on HD and see what kind of response they’d get outside the White House.
The thunder would be deafening…..
Can’t seem to find the back-up but fairly soon we will see boobama take action to make it cheaper to operate green cars than traditional cars. I believe that will come in the form of about 1$ gallon or more tax. Maybe from the cap and trade.
Plant alfalfa in the back yard and put in a couple of stalls in the garage. Maybe it is time to take a cue from our Amish neighbors.
There are so many things to comment on here and the author is right . The future is not very good for automobile lovers. But I really want to comment on an aspect of the global warming dung pile that seems to come up from time to time . Like the ALIEN creature who keeps coming back to life the notion that melting ice will raise sea levels is a colossal lie and absurdity. Everyone assumes when ice becomes liquid it raises sea levels. Lets call it the AL Gore assumption. The fact is that most of the additional water EVAPORATES into the atmosphere. It is a cycle and it doesn’t stop once H2O becomes liquid. It continues through the cycle. In the atmosphere it joins a massive quantity of suspended moisture which is incalculable and is the major reason computer weather “models’ fail in application. This quantity is called a variable which means it is ….. oh well, you get the point.
Welcome the next generation of energy-efficient automobiles! First in our new lineup is the “Amabo,” a two-cylinder two-stroke making 9 BHP, 0-40 KPH in 55 seconds, and a top speed of 50 KPH (down hill with a strong wind at your back.)
The body is made up of light-weight panels composed of re-cycled human fecal material interwoven with plastic threads. There is a slight drawback in that the car smells like sheet when it gets wet, but we all need to sacrifice a little, are you with me on this?
To keep costs down, instead of brakes there are holes in the floorboards ala “Fred Flintstone;” it is recommended that boots be worn when driving for maximum stopping power.
MSRP is expected to be in the neighborhood of $35,000 (including VAT), making the “Amabo”
the affordable choice for millions!
We have signed many economic and trade treaties with foreign nations. I don’t think they will sit by and allow Obama to dictate very many marketing decisions without asking world courts for relief. Europe and Asia can bankrupt the U.S. any time it pleases.
This is really simple.
1) We use a lot of oil
2) A lot of it comes from countries that hate us
3) Our domestic supplies are insufficient to significantly effect the global price even if fully exploited
4) Because it’s a global market the oil we buy from friendly sources (Canada) still raises the price of oil for unfriendly sources (Iran, Venezuela)
5) The more oil we use the more money gets sent to Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Quaeda, and every other left wind insurgency in South America.
6) The best way to stop funding both sides of the war on terror as well as Hugo Chavez’s communist experiment is to reduce the amount of oil we consume AND increase domestic production
It’s national security boys and girls. Suck it up and get used to the fact that your next car will be smaller. It won’t bring the economy to a screeching halt, it won’t mean commercial trucks can’t be used anymore. At worst it might mean you can’t tow your boat 100 miles to the lake for a long weekend.
Two thoughts:
1. I think hybrid technology is a great idea that when mature will save us drivers meaningful amounts of money. Just two things, regenerative braking and charging while coasting should be of great value. When it is economic, I look forward to buying such a car. Only free market forces will allow that to happen – government subsidies or coercion will inevitably slow the process and misdirect it into a suboptimal solution.
2. Unless this is repealed, the US could end up looking like Cuba as people will refuse to buy the new cars and continue to maintain our more interesting and more useful “antique” vehicles.
Schwinn and Harley Davidson will have to merge. I used to think a playing card made mean sounds with the wheel spokes. We’ll be revisiting that, or something similar.
Maybe the market will adapt to dinky cars by making them modular.
You could snap three or four together to make a proper vehicle.
Paul in MI:
1. Your #3 is debatable, at the very least.
2. Your #5 should include the clause: “…until we kill them.”
3. You should have a #7: exploit nuclear energy.
4. And a #8: Throw spitwads at Al Gore until he is forced to open a dry-cleaning shop.
I just got body work done on my ’95 Bonneville. Only 140,000 klicks. I’m keeping her. They’ll have to pry my cold dead hands off of the steering wheel to get me into a mobile phone booth.
“But how do you say “Those days are closing fast” in Mandarin?”
你好。我是从政府。我在这里帮助您。
Reformed Trombonist #45
1. Estimates that I’ve read say we have about 2% of the world’s reserves, compare that to the Saudis who have 26%. Even if we could get it all flowing tommorrow it wouldn’t have that big an effect.
2. There is a limit to the number of people we can kill and they tend to be replaced, if it was easy we’d have done it already.
3. Conceded
4. Whatever makes you happy.
How do you take a family trip? Once this is established, birthrates will have to be reduced, convenient.
That seems to be the mantra these days from the Obama administration: Alawys make due with LESS. You will have higher taxes and, therefore, LESS money. You will have to get used to LESS capable and smaller automobiles, whether you like it or not. Obama wants universal health care, which means you will have to get used to LESS medical services when they become rationed, just like they are in Britain and Canada. You will have to use LESS energy, which means much hotter homes in summer and much colder homes in winter. You will have to make due with LESS food, because Government healthcare services (what a misnomer)will tell you what to eat and how much. You will have get used to earning LESS, because the Federal Government will tell people in the banking and automotive industries how much they can earn. You will also have LESS choices on what to listen to on the radio because the Federal Government will adopt the “Fairness Doctrine,” which will strip free speach from the radio. And if you’re working in a factory and some Union thugs threaten you into joining a Union, you’ll have LESS rights under the “CARD CHECK” program, which will take away your right to a secret ballot. Is this progress? Is this the future you really want to have? Elections mean something, people. Don’t blow off the next one. If you do, then you’ll have even LESS money and personal rights during the next four years.
The elite of government and industry will
continue to drive big cars on the taxpayer’s
dime one way or another. Separate toll[high]
express lanes will complete the equation.
This will keep your crapwagons out of their way.
This is fair because they are important in the
new world and you are not. If you are not
happy you can use a bike or a moped or use
public transit. Remember a car is a not a
right, for you.
The new CAFE standards also mean that if
you are not perceived as a premium brand
you will have to meet Korean or Chinese
cost levels not Japanese ones in these
small vehicles. If you cannot price high
you have to cost low. This does not bode
well for domestic manufacture.
Remember the “Misery Index” of the Carter years, when inflation was factored with interest rates to produce that now imfamous label? Democrats, who exist miserably in the miserable urban filth and decadence they and their governments created, are demanding suburbanites and rural folks partake and share a portion of their misery by forcing us into cramped, underpowered vehicles best suited for urban, short-hop driving. By the rule of their laws they will condemn contractors, farmers and other owner/operators of light-duty trucks to transport supplies and equipment with grossly underpowered vehicles, greatly adding to the cost of the products and service they provide. Take note, urban elitists, there will be a price: you will pay dearly for every cobblestone you place in your yard, every Starbucks latte and every clump of arugula you chop for your salad. Isn’t misery wonderful?
Look folks, not everyone lives in a super dense, lots of public transportation that goes everywhere town. Some of us haul stuff in our trucks everyday. I’ll buy a new truck while I can and they’ll have to pry me out of it! There’s a reason why Texans a wedded to their trucks! Good luck with that “hope and change and antropogenic global warming” cr*p!
You’ll still be able to buy a car from Toyota or Hundai. The problem is going to come from the fact that nobody is going to buy cars from Mr. Obama’s abominable (obaminable?) car company. In case you think you’ve seen this before, try googling ‘Volkswagen Beetle’ and select the wikipedia entry. There was a certain Reichschancellor Hitler who is responible for creating the People’s Car (Volkswagen). The German government knew just what drivers needed to buy and ordered it be produced. See any parallels?
“Here’s something no-one’s considered: what is a family with three or more children, at least two of whom require car/booster seats or have have to sit in the back, going to do when forced to buy an econo-deathbox?”
More than two kids? That won’t be permitted either because it’s not green. Be thankful they don’t go to the Chinese model of one child.
Meanwhile, the next thing they’re going to do is re-establish the mandatory 55 mph speed limit. So the fact that you can’t accelerate properly will be irrelevant.
Mr Green
Have you driven the Jetta TDI? This thing moves and gets 50 mpg. Turbodiesel. So for sedans we already have the problem solved and you don’t see a discernable difference in power or ability. Claiming that we’ll all be in tin cans is silly. For what a lot of people need in a car the Jetta TDI or equivalent will do the job.
Trucks will probably benefit from turbodiesel as well.
This will undoubtedly cheese off our government masters though.
I think the writer is overlooking one critical thing when he bemoans the imminent demise of the auto industry;
Diesel.
Diesel engines have roughly TWICE the overall efficiency of their like-sized gasoline counterparts. A Modern diesel is as clean and quiet as a gasoline engine, and slightly adjusted gear ratios in the transmission make them just as snappy and quick. There is a HUGE underground demand for diesel engines in America. Witness the 2004-2006 Jeep Liberty Diesel. In the states where they were sold they COULD NOT keep them in stock because of overwhelming demand! The new VW Diesels are experiencing the same phenomenal sales.
Additionally, Diesel fuel is generally cheaper to manufacture, and (for the eco-freaks) can be supplemented with bio-diesel which can be made at home using common household items. Diesel pumps are already spread out pretty much everywhere. (For example, in my area, western New York State, there are 15 diesel pumps available inside a 5 mile radius from my home, and I live in a 3rd tier suburb!) So the infrastructure is already in place.
I think what you are going to see is a massive transition over to Diesel vehicles in the major auto-makers fleets. Due to the much higher efficiencies of diesel, cars can stay larger and easily crest the new CAFE standards. So in the short term, the future of the auto is still rosy, but it’s running on diesel.
I sold my little Chevy Cavalier even though it got a little over 33 miles per gallon because I felt vulnerable and had about a 450 mile range per tank and kept my Older but reliable GMC Jimmy mid sized SUV with V6 262 cubic inch that gets a little over 22 miles per gallon highway and about 18 around town. I feel safe in it and can carry 5 people with comfort as well as cargo in the rear that is locked and safe from the weather unlike a pickup. It has tremendous power and extreme maneuverability making it easy to park. I keep it mechanically maintained and it does the job quite well without fear of death or serious injury in a normal or possibly even large accident.
G. Alston:
Finally a point of complete convergence. Diesel power is the way to go especially a Diesel-Electric Hybrid. I own a 2005 Jetta TDI and I regularly nearly meet the 39 mpg (combined) fleet average in my regular city-suburban driving routine. My last road trip yielded about 56 mpg. The new TDI is not quite as fuel efficient but is much zippyer then mine. In normal driving you are going to get closer to 45mpg highway and low 30s city. I am not an advocate of CAFE standard but I know diesel power will allow some fun cars to be built in the future.
Note to Paul in MI: The oft quoted 2% figure is based on current rules for counting proven reserves. If potential oil bearing geologic formations are put legally out-of-bounds you can’t count them. If you look at total available conventional domestic oil bearing formation are percentage of world reserves rises to about 5% but even that doesn’t give the entire resource picture. The US holds anywhere from 1 trillion to 3 trillion recoverable barrels of recoverable oil from shale and has huge reserves of coal which can be converted to middle distillates (diesel) at rate of 1 barrel for ton of coal. The US has the world’s largest recoverable liquid hydrocarbon reserves to the tune of 50-75% of the world’s total reserves. We are not in danger of running out of fossil fuels until well into the Star Trek era.
#19 “Where does Obama find these idiots?”
=================================================
Kin-folk.
There’s a nice public bus that will take me and my four kids “over the hill” into town for a day at the library and some shopping. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to haul home all the stuff I need to buy to keep those kids fed. On top of that, the bus fare (even with subsidies) costs more than gas to get our wheezy 10 year old van “over the hill” and back.
They can pry my personal minivan out of my cold, dead hands. We’ve replaced the engine on that thing once, we can do it again. We know a good mechanic and we’re not afraid to use him!
G Alston:
The current Jetta TDI (with a manual transmission, which most people don’t even know how to use anymore) gets (at best) a little over 40 mpg combined fuel economy by the CAFE method (only 34 mpg by the EPA’s new method). Car companies are going to have to sell a crap-load of cars even more efficient than that to be able to balance out the larger, more powerful cars that get less than 39 mpg. That spells reduced consumer choice and higher prices to me, because IMO manufacturers are going to have to limit the number of larger, more powerful cars that they make – you know, they ones people actually want to buy, and more expensive engine technology and lighter weight materials are going to be needed to make decent-sized cars that actually approach the new standard. And by a lot of people’s standards, BTW, the Jetta TDI is a small, underpowered car.
I drive a 1996 chevy Impala Super Sport with the corvette engine. I nbstalled a chip that increased horsepower and delayed shift points to higher rpm’s, and picked up a few more hp with custom exhaust. I love
to drive it FAST and then pick Prius’s out of the grille. I have an extra
drive train, so this car has more life left than I do – though I’ll never die in a crash with an Obamamobile.
I’m a big fan of diesel, although the Jetta — a great little car, BTW — is too small for my family, which includes a growing boy and a large dog.
For now, however, diesel remains a niche product, and is likely to remain so for as long as California greenies are setting the nation’s rules for particulate emissions. Currently, the only way to build a new diesel that’s street-legal in Cali (and, soon, in the entire USA) is to tack on a urea tank (it’s as gross as it sounds) which needs to be refilled every few thousand miles. And it ain’t cheap, either.
Is diesel worth the hassle and expense? I think so. But the wackos are doing their best to make sure that, for the broader American public, it isn’t and won’t ever be.
Ry YYZ:
The EPA numbers for the 2009 TDI are hosed and they acknowledge that. Their model underestimates diesel performance by 25% or more. An independent testing firm measured the 2009 TDI at about 35 city and 45 highway. If you go to http://WWW.tdiclub.com you can see what kind of mileage the new Jetta is getting and it validates the independent tester’s results and the EPA bias.
I would agree that the previous TDIs are not world beaters on acceleration but they are fine handling sports sedans that have a decent fun quotient. Diesel engines have much more torque then equivalent gas powered engines and have superior acceleration. My 100 hp 1.9l diesel can out accelerate similar gasoline powered cars like the civic and Corrolla. The Jetta weighs very close to 3000lbs and is very crash worthy vehicle.
6. Douglas:
Obama wants us living in large cities, dependent on public transportation
and government. Living in Brady, Texas won’t be an option much longer.
9. eon:
We also have a newly-minted Secretary of Transportation (Ray LaHood),
who openly states that he intends to “coerce people out of their cars”
and onto public transportation. At. Any. Cost.
Douglas – Horse
eon – Texans don’t do coercion well.
We DO become a soveriegn nation well though. BTDT, got the nation.
(p.s. I look forward to reading all of your daily comments)
I owned a 1982 VW Jetta Diesel. Highs: great mileage, around 50 mpg. Lows: you name it. Needful of expensive repairs; things that fell apart or fell off; lousy A/C; struts that lasted about 25,000 miles; rust-prone; noisy; fuel jells at about 0 degrees, which means you’re walking until it warms up.
Verdict: my mechanic named the car “Hitler’s Revenge.”
Free abortions for all!
That’s OK. Since smaller cars are far less survivable in a crash, healthcare costs to the government are lowered. It all works out.
By the way, Stephen… I said yesterday at my own place that the Prius is the perfect car for people who don’t like to drive and want that dislike reinforced. Now consider that we’ve given such people governmental power.
Reformed:
You think things might improve after a quarter century? Modern diesels pre-heat the fuel and have glow plugs to start the car in any weather. Consumer Reports rates the Jetta fairly high with bad news on electrical and A/C. The diesels have less complicated electrical systems. They don’t rust and after 45000 miles my Jetta has yet to see a mechanic for anything other then the scheduled maintanence. Most TDI owners I know have similar experiences and keep their cars for years.
jerryofva:
The fuel economy figures used for the CAFE standard are based on the same data as the EPA mpg numbers, but without the adjustment that the EPA made a year or two ago. Thus the CAFE combined mpg figure for the Jetta TDI is about 40 mpg (35 city 45 hwy, as you said, although actually it is weighted a little more towards city). Just barely over the limit, meaning more than half the cars sold will have to be at least as, or more efficient than this – meaning smaller cars with smaller engines.
Yes, the Jetta TDI’s a fine little car, and many people can probably get by with something even smaller and less powerful for commuting, but a lot of people still prefer something larger and more powerful – and are willing to pay the price in lower fuel economy. It appears that choice may soon be priced out of many people’s reach, however, regardless of the cost of fuel. Heck, I currently drive a 4-cyl ’04 Honda Accord, and it’s far from meeting the new fuel economy standard. It’s going to have to get lighter ($$$) and the engine more efficient ($$$ if it’s to provide similar real-world performance) to make the standard, or at least get close enough to it to allow the CAFE to reach the standard – and that’s Honda’s most popular car in north America.
The EPA’s relentless pursuit of ever-lower (to a point of diminishing returns) NOx levels isn’t helping any in the quest for better fuel economy, either. It’s already preventing cars from running as lean as is ideal for optimum fuel economy. Direct injection with stratified charge can help in this regard, but at least in the immediate future it’s more expensive to implement, although economies of scale should make it possible to bring it a lost closer. As others have pointed out, standards for NOx and particulates are difficult for diesels (with their inherent higher efficiency) to achieve without complicated and expensive emissions controls like urea injection (mostly for NOx) and particulate traps.
68. Ms. Attitude:
“but sounds like back-door population control policy”
-
“Free abortions for all!”
~
Good gracious. I seriously thought that exact same thing when I read that statement too. In fact, I’d go one step further and say that women who get an abortion via the “free abortion extortion” will even get extra 0bama bux er ‘tax refunds’ for saving mother earth from another carbon foot-print.
P.S. Hubby and I are hanging onto our silver Mercury Marauder unless something can entice us size and fuel economy-wise to give ‘er up. We sold our Chevy Caprice this month to a friend (still a sweet ride).
Your new car is already designed. The 2012 Pelosi GTxi SS/RT Sport Edition.
Here is an informative link about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAqPMJFaEdY
The small green cars are not a plan to save the planet. It’s just part of a plan to make boobama, his pals at the joyce foundation, al gore and all his pals rich.
Remember these folks have neither principals nor morals. It’s all about power and with that power comes wealth.
Like the old FBI slogan “just follow the money”
In 1982 I owned a Ford Escort. It was an okay little car as I recall, got good gas mileage, and I was poor at the time. One day I was going down the highway when the driver of a large car, who had been zig-zaging through traffic, rear-ended my little escort and bounced it off a bridge abutment. The escort was totalled, I was wearing my seatbelt and survived, but the driver’s door came off its hinges and smashed up my left hip.
I spent 3 weeks in a hospital and another 6 weeks out of work. My left leg is a half inch shorter than my right and I can not squat down to tie shoes or trim toe nails. I won’t bore you about the list of pains and stuff.
I’ve owned several F-150s since then. When I got married, my wife talked me into an Explorer. (That was rear-ended twice, at low speeds. I gave the other drivers sympathy for their messed up fronts, and went home to touch up the black paint on my trailer hitch.) Nowadays I’m driving a Honda Pilot. I always swore I would only buy an American car, but Consumer Reports and my wife’s relatives have been bragging on Honda for years. The Pilot is like a better-made Ford Explorer, so I’m pleased with it. I don’t drive much anynore, so I can probably make this one last until I croak.
Haven’t had anyone bounce off it yet, but Fiats and Smart cars shouldn’t even scratch the paint.
Have you guys seen THIS from WND?
“But WND reviewed the list of 789 closing franchises and databases of political donors and found that of dealership majority owners making contributions in the November 2008 election, less than 10 percent gifted to Democrats while 90 percent gave substantial sums to Republican candidates. “
#66. rickb308
Thanks.
We Buckeyes aren’t big on the coercion bit either, as several of our past governors have learned the hard way. (Ending up on the unemployment line and wondering how they got there.)
I say, pink-slip Congress next year, fire The One and his cronies in ’12.
To paraphrase Ronald Reagan,
“A recession is when your neighbor loses his job. A depression is when you lose your job. And a recovery is when Barack Obama loses his job.”
Not just in economic terms, either.
cheers
eon
Anyone else never buying an American made car again? When the government took over the auto industry and handed it over to the unions and is now putting dealerships out of business based on their political contributions, I am DONE!
TeleBama and his thugocracy can tell the liberals to bend over and they will (and have). The rest of us will have to start speaking with our paychecks.
Everyone out in the sticks has known about diesel for decades. I drive a 2006 GMC 1-ton, dual wheeled, diesel-powered, commercial flatbed. I use it as a tool hauler and to pull my equipment trailer. It gets 15-16 mpg with an empty bed and no trailer, whether on the highway or on local trips. I’d hate to have to drive that same truck if it was required to get 30 mpg. Our idiot government can’t see past the suburbs.
> You think things might improve after a quarter century?
Improve relative to what? To a 1982 Jetta? Probably. To other car makers? Maybe not. Consumer Reports shows a nice graph which generalizes the relative reliability of different auto makers. VW has consistently ranked among the least reliable. CR likes the way VWs perform and handle, but that’s a different animal. I think corporate cultures tend to be fairly consistent, actually.
> Modern diesels pre-heat the fuel and have glow plugs to start the car in any weather.
My 82 Jetta had glow plugs, too. Don’t know about the pre-heating, but as a general rule, if it’s electrical in nature, I would want my European car to be as simple as possible.
> Consumer Reports rates the Jetta fairly high with bad news on electrical and A/C.
Yep. Color me not terribly surprised about the bad news. I loved driving my VW; I just didn’t enjoy maintaining it.
> The diesels have less complicated electrical systems. They don’t rust and after 45000 miles my Jetta has yet to see a mechanic for anything other then the scheduled maintanence.
Congratulations. I have a buddy who has owned 2 VW diesels and he’s had good luck, too. Apparently, my experience was more typical.
> Most TDI owners I know have similar experiences and keep their cars for years.
I tend to keep cars for a very long time. I sell them long after I should have, usually, unless owning them just p.o.s me beyond belief. My 97 Caddy was a joy to drive, but a nightmare to maintain, and one of us needed to die. My lowly, proletarian 1982 Checker performs like a beast of burden, with 200,000 miles on it.
I should add that, with Audis and VWs, the first 60,000 miles are usually trouble-free. Mine was, too. Just keep your eyes open on the next 60,000 miles.
#78 — Have you guys seen THIS from WND?
Conspiracy wingnuts ride again. This site is certainly good for that.
ALL dealerships trend to republican ownership, genius. They could have obtained a similar result with darts.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
2009/05/news-flash-car-dealers-are-republicans.html
We need to get the right folks in congress so that we can get to the root of alot of what is happening. Unfortunately our government has gotten so used to breaking laws with impunity that they forgot what they are doing is actually criminal. boobama put freeing up credit low on his list of things to do when we all know that people usually buy cars with credit. dealerships that backed republicans getting shut down. Coincidence I think not. I’ve seen this shite before only not here. Just like that quote from Jefferson:
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure.”
Although I would like to think it can be done without bloodshed. I also wonder if congress would be willing to put itself in jail. Maybe if the senators were investigated and prosecuted at the state level. afterall their states elected them. If we can’t do that we’ll have to shoot ‘em
83. G Alston: ALL dealerships trend to republican ownership, genius.
Okay, Brainiac, let’s play.
I live in California. In California all dealers are NOT republicans.
And by the way, the site they refference is THE HUFFINGTON POST! Not exactly the best site in the world if you want to be credible, eh, Brainiac? It’s http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/ in case you can’t figure it out…
In linking to that article, I was asking if anyone had seen it and if it was possible there was anything to it. I figured people would be intelligent enough to get that. I did NOT say “Hey, look dood, the dems are targetting republicans.” I don’t know that they are or are not. I do know they have a history of stealing elections, thumbing their nose at 501c3 restrictions, and targetting republicans.
So, my question is this: Does anyone know if there is anything to this notion that Democrats targetted Republican Donors?
G. Alston:
WND left off the caveats. The bloggers looking at this have cautioned against drawing conclusion too quickly. Several things stand out in pattern of closing. There are multiple profitable dealerships with high consumer satisfaction ratings that got closed who are owned by Republicans and there are other dealers with connections to the Democrats that remain open. Most of the dealers who got closed were in congressional districts that vote Republican but let’s face it the bluer the district the fewer American cars particularly Chryslers get purchased.
I am inclined to believe that Obama discrimminated against Republican owned dealerships because it’s the Chicago way.
75. Tom W:
BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! The Pelosimobile is even worse than the Amabo!
Re #86′s query “Does anyone know if there is anything to this notion that Democrats targeted Republican donors?”:
I submit this from the Washington Examiner for further discussion….
“UPDATE II: White House car czar married to Democratic fund raiser
Maybe it’s significant, maybe not, but a colleague here in the Examiner newsroom just reminded me that White House car czar Steven Rattner is married to Maureen White, the former national finance chairman of the Democratic National Committee. And let’s not forget that before Rattner became a Wall Street mover and shaker, he was a New York Times reporter. “
What a bunch of whining over nothing! Obama never said anything about small cars. He want more EFFICIENT cars! Honestly – you guys need to work on your reading comprehension. If I had the money, and one were available, I’d buy a hybrid hummer.
There is absolutely no necessary correlation between driving pleasure and fuel economy. Just make the fun cars more efficient.
Daniel Henninger of the Wall Street Journal has a marvelous editorial today about drag racing, the muscle cars and the Beach Boys songs about cars, such as Little Duce Coup, and we’ll have fun, fun fun ’til her daddy takes the T-Bird away…with the radio blastin’ she’s drivin just as fast as she can now… What I remember are the long, wide backseats and the really cute boys I curled up with back there. Oh, yeah! My song was, “Wake up, little Suzy, wake up.” “Here’s to the girl who steals a kiss and stays to steal another…” God, didnt we have fun. My first car was a Chrysler Windsor I got for $100 with “fluid drive.” My next car was a two-tone (salmon/creame) De Soto with white walls and fins.
Bottom line here is Barry and the Pols want to be the only ones who get to ride in the Limos. And the G-5s’
the 40+ mpg car is achievable, if you don’t need a back seat. A 30 mpg full-sized pickup is impossible. Even with a hybrid drive train, they’re going to have to get creative with the numbers to appear to meet that.
Prediction: there will be a loophole big enough to drive an 18-wheeler through.
64, particulates aren’t the real reason. They want to push biodiesel.
As if the production of biofuels in California is without environmental impact.
Somebody needs to be banned by reason of blasphemy.
Someone75:
I thought that the Obama Administration was going to put science back in its proper place. If you representative of the typical Obama supporter that is going to be really difficult since you don’t know much about science or engineering. The Jetta TDI is about the only thing you can build that ties the words sporty, fun and efficiency together and meet the 39 MPG CAFE standard. Everything else is a tiny little econobox like Yaris or Versa. There is a connection between driving fun and horsepower. It’s not one to one but it highly correlated. You can’t build a BMW that meet this standard even with a diesel engine. The BMW 335D isn’t even close.
So tell me what kind of cars have you driven lately?
So does this mean I’m going to have to get my 2006 Hemi V-8 Charger and my Ford F-150 Triton V-8 converted to diesel? Or propane? How about my ’71 Chevy Chevelle Malibu?
I suppose I could go buy a Yugo. That was made by a government car manufacturer, and we all know how successful it was.
Here’s what I want to see: a couple thousand muscle cars revving their noisy engines in unison at the next tea party in D.C. Throw in a few of the Nascars, and that would make a great show. Oh, and just for the noise factor, add several thousand Harleys. Make sure each vehicle is sporting a U.S. flag.
I remember my first (and only) “CAFE” car, a yellow Chevette, bought in a hurry under emergency circumstances. Driving into West Virginia was an ordeal, what with the hills and mountains and such.
Look at the brigh side though: soon our cars will be so small that we could dispense with shopping carts at the supermarket, and just drive our little electromobiles up and down the aisles.
That was Cardinal Bellarmine who wanted to do that.
>There is absolutely no necessary correlation between driving pleasure and fuel economy. Just make the fun cars more efficient.
That’s the whole rub, Skippy- it can’t be done profitably at current technology. The CAFE standards will translate into smaller lighter cars and trucks that nobody wants and that will get more Americans killed. That’s not fun.
Laws are not permanent. Laws are passed by elected officials. Elected officials who pass unpopular laws tend to not remain elected officials.
Remember 55? I voted against it, with my right foot and at the ballot box. This is coming from a guy who drives a Honda Civic, because he wants to spend his money on other things. It’s called freedom, and I love it.
Just wave that magic wand, huh? Or is it that a miracle happens?
Reality: We’re at or near the limit of fuel efficiency on a per pound basis. There is no way to make the kind of numbers happen that Obama’s tossing around without going to thimbles on verrrry small wheels.
I drive an ’01 Hyundai Accent that can laugh at a Honda Insight for performance, and laugh at anything GM or Chrysler can make right now for regular gasoline mileage. It has lived up to the 100,000 mile warranty hype, never needing major work for 101,000 miles. (I hope it stays that way for about 30,000 more right now.) If Dear Leader Obama makes GM & Chrysler manufacture crappy cars, fine. My next car will be a Hyundai too. If that’s bad for the UAW, greedy politicians, and know-it-all environmentalists, well, tough.
Unfortunately the little Hyunadi won’t hold up well if Dear Leader crashes the US economy, (followed in turn by the world economy), and the new Mad Max rules of the road dictate plenty of engine power and chassis size for ram plates, spikes, and gun mounts. You people who hang on to your older vehicles will be king of the road, then.
Don’t worry, once all those yuppie Obama voters who were so enchanted with him find out his “change” means they will have to trade in their SUV’s for crackerboxes and $4.00 a gallon gas will be the norm they will have a different attitude toward the messiah.
I doubt the fuel standards will be much of a problem, the new president in 2013 will rescind them before they have a chance to fully take effect.
#102 — Reality: We’re at or near the limit of fuel efficiency on a per pound basis.
There’s a startup in CA designing a new type of fuel injector who seems to think they can get up to double the current mpg efficiency in std gas engines. There’s an article in Wired that talks about them. They’re headed up by a former Ford bigshot. Might be something to look into.
JFM (we missed your science lol)it would take at least 500 years for a partof the Antartic ice to melt
and ocean water would rise only of 3 meters but 25% more on the both west and east coasts of the US (acording to an article of “Science mag”
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/depeches/economie/20090515.FAP2264/rechauffement_la_hausse_du_niveau_de_la_mer_serait_moin.html
for those who wonder what kind of cars they’ll have the right to possess (or can afford) Joey Bidden gave a view on his Twitter place :
“Car czar just showed me our top secret new model http://bit.ly/wiLDJ“
A Moped is rated here [http://www.gmimotorsports.com/] at about 90 mpg. Since mpg is largely dependent on weight, you can get Obambi’s 39 mpg goal if you limit the weight of the rolling coffin to about 2.5 times the weight of a Moped. That isn’t much of a car.
87. jerryofva:
Thank you!
105. G Alston: There’s an article in Wired that talks about them (new fuel injectors).
When it appears in Popular Mechanics, let us know… Geeks should stay out from under the hood of a car.
#75. Tom, you made my day.
G. Alston:
I am getting that de ja vu all over again feeling when I see stories like this. It makes me nostalgic for the 70s with all the new types of carburetors (remember those things?) that would make your go 100 miles on a drop of gas.
There is only so much energy in a gallon of gasoline or diesel. Since modern engines convert over half the energy to work it is impossible to double the gas mileage from an internal combustion engine. Perhaps they are working on the flux capacitor.
greenland antarctica thaw “sea level” 60..80 meters
For all their talk about free market economics, conservatives don’t seem to have much faith in it. If there is a demand for faster, bigger cars in the market (i.e. people are willing to pay and by them over smaller less powerful cars) and there is a constraint on how fuel efficient cars have to be, you can bet that car makers will find a way to get both. That is how free markets work. While there may be brief periods where cars may have gotten smaller with smaller engines, if you look at the big picture cars today are roomier, safer, more powerful AND HAVE BETTER FUEL EFFICIENCY than cars from the previous decade.
Charvakan:
What you say is true given engineering limits. Designers have just about gotten every ounce of power per displacement that they can. The attributes you describe, i.e., roomier, safer and more powerful came about because cars increased size and weight over the last few years and have suffered a penalty because of it. Today’s Honda Civic is bigger then the first Accord. The Fit is the new Civic and it doesn’t have any to those attributes you claim. It isn’t even more fuel efficient.
No automobile manufacture truly meets the current standards without resorting to gimmickry. The luxury car manufactures like Mercedes, BMW and the Japanese big three simply pay the fines and pass it on to an indifferent high income consumer. Toyota’s strategy in bringing the Prius to the North American Market was to use it mightily puffed up fuel economy to lower its fleet average so it could sell more gas guzzlers.
There is no way to meet a 39 mpg standard building family and performance cars. Only a diesel powered vehicle can meet the higher standards and even that is limited to a Jetta sized vehicle at best.
Yes, we’ve been hearing about that kind of thng since Jimmy Carter went Rabbit Hunting in the ceement Pond he had installed out back of the White House. jerryofva says it well.
Fantasy.
Oh, the free market isn’t the issue.
Perhaps you’ve forgotten the 70′s, or perhaps you weren’t aware during those days? What was the answer to these issues then? They went small. The Vega. THe Pinto. Else, you bought from Japan, who in reality wasn’t much better. There was always the VW, if you, yourself were small enough. But none had much in the way of crashworthyness. None would haul a trailer, and your knees, if you were of any size at all, ended up beoming permanently lodged in your nostrils.
I find myself very interested in the automobile question even though I haven’t owned a car in over 20 years. It’s easy for me because I live in a big city with a good public transportation system. I figured I didn’t need the expense of a car and if I needed one I could always rent. I’ve rented cars three times in the last ten years.
I still remember my first car. It was a 1965 Rambler (which I bought in 1977). It got good gas milage and was extremely reliable. It might have been an ugly car, but it did everything I wanted to and never gave me big gas or repair bills. I’ve sworn not to buy another car until AMC makes another Rambler.
But I know that most people want cars. They want big cars. They want cars with more flash than a Rambler. A few years ago the government tried to set milage standards for cars so Detroit gave their cars AGH (Automobile Growth Hormone) and created the SUV. The SUV was neither sporty nor was it utilitarian, but it was big, bloated, and was very lucrative for automakers. I would mention though that if SUVs are so profitable and people want them so badly, why are the last two US automakers (and what’s left of Chrysler)in such financial trouble?
But if Detroit wants to make bulgebuggies and people want to buy them the solution is simple. Mount cannons on SUVs and call them tanks. Nobody has emission or milage standards for tanks. The Ford F-150 weighs about as much as a tank anyway. Americans can claim that Detroit’s new Sports Utility Tanks are guaranteed under the constitution. The automakers will be making the high-profit cars they really want to build. The public would have the expensive 6 ton rolling junkboxes some people here say they want to have. It’s a win-win.
Although road rage might be a bit messier.
I have to admit though I miss the 6 ton cars from the 50s with tail fins and 1500 lbs. of chrome. Now those babies were worth destroying the environment for.
115. Eric Florack:
Like I said there may be a period of time where the answer would be making cars small, but if you compare the cars today to those that came out after the 70′s oil crisis they are bigger, more powerful and better fuel efficient. Likewise I don’t argue that cars may get smaller in response to the new standards in the short term, but over time car makers will make bigger/powerful cars with the same mileage because there is a market for it and they can make money doing it. Like I said, have some faith in the free market.
113. jerryofva:
You can’t put a limit on technology. Heard of Tesla? I am not saying pure electric sports cars will be the answer, but that manufacters will find a way to sell cars for which there is a demand. I don’t think anyone here is qualified to state categorically that we have reached technical limits and the only way to make a car be fuel efficient is to make the smaller in all of future.
#34 – I totally agree with you that no one thinks about families that have more than the 1.7 children that they are allowed to have. I have 4 children, and my mother lives with us, so the only choices we have are: 1) take 2 vehicles to go anywhere, 2) settle for an ugly mini-van, or 3) have a full-size SUV. I chose #3 because I want to be able to get where I’m going regardless of the weather, my children are too tall to fit comfortably in a mini-van, and taking 2 cars everywhere is not only a pain, but a huge expense.
The question I have is, why are we the only country so worried about global warming – or climate change – or whatever they’ll be calling it next week – that we will do everything in our power to make our citizens pay a premium for everything? It’s bad enough that we have to pay A LOT more for medications because the drug companies charge us for all of their research and give the rest of the world a pass, but now we will pay more for fuel (fossil fuel) or food (because of the crops that will be used for bio-fuels). Why does the U.S. have to come up with ways of cleaning up the environment to such a degree to make up for what the rest of the world isn’t doing?
Who would Like to drive on a Turn Pike at 65 Miles per a hour in a Tin Can and with his Family in the Car ?
Only a Damn Fool !
“won’t save much fuel and won’t save the planet, but they will crush the life out of the car business.”
That’s not all they’ll crush the life out of. They will crush the life out of us, too, the minute we get into an accident with a larger vehicle, like a truck.
But then, that will be good too, won’t it, because fewer of us is better for the earth.
Charvakan:
The Tesla costs $100K and it seats two people and weighs about 2000lbs. The battery back is good for about 500 charge cycles or 3-5 years in every day use. Replacement costs for the lithium ion battery back will run multiple tens of thousands of dollars to replace. The advertised performance is good for about 50 miles and then the computer takes over and limits the amout of power that you can use. It’s a nice piece of technology for the Hollywood set but for mass markets the electric car is a dead end.
You are quite mistaken if you believe that the there has been some quantum leap in fuel efficiency it today’s automobile over the trash that everybody built in the 1970s to meet the first cafe standards. Modern high performance engines get that way with multiple valves and turbocharging. They run on premium gas which has less energy content and takes more energy to produce. Over fuel cycle modern high performance engines aren’t a whole lot more efficient then they were in the 70′s. By and large cars get better gas mileage becasue they are smaller an lighter then they were in 1970.
ICE development is pretty much reached the point where further gains in efficiency are nil.
Um, diesel is all very well and good, but what will you do with the fractional part of the crude oil that is gasoline? Can’t turnit into diesel in any quantities without usig more energy than you get back.
Long story short, as long as we are pumping crude, there will be a percentage of that crude that refines into gasoline, and a percentage that refines into diesel (and others for fuel oil, bunker oil, kerosene, mineral spirits, etc.).if all our carws were diesel, we’d be hurting for overall supply.
It’s a mix that’s necessary. Diesel for some, gas for some, electric for a few, mandated wind-power-only for non-DOD government vehicles – especially Obama’s (and AlGore should be legally restricted to walking – without output of CO2).
America has to break its dependence on imported fuel. America was once a World leader in railway technology, trains are patriotic and they’re damm sexy too!
http://www.rocousa.com/BigBoy/bigboy1.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_up8080.jpg
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Okay…good comments here.
Yes, the future of the American automobile is the junkyard, where you will find the parts and body panels to keep your ante-Obama vehicle in running order.
My boss has a past-time manufacturing “matching numbers” and “date-code correct” late 1960′s GTO’s…he’s got a warehouse chock full of GTO parts doodads and Lemans frames.
But here’s the deal…here’s the solution.
Ban all private ownership of automobiles within metropolitan areas.
City-dwellers take the buses and the trolleys and the subways…that will be part and parcel of urban American existence.
Private ownership of automobiles will be the prerogative of suburbanites and rural dwellers.
There ya go…we just saved the planet by turning urbanite eco-freaks into pedestrians.
…you’re all quite welcome.
Wow, the Gang Green has won without even one verifiable fact to support any of their claims.
Obama and his handlers are all Communists. Congratulations to all you government ‘educated’ morons who elected him.
I am sorry for the redundancy folks, but I have no more time left for debating with these idiots. And, I don’t think anyone else does either.
That’s true. However you will notice that the difference here is that there has been no “silver bullet”. We keep looking for “80mpg carburetors”. We keep looking for specialty fuel injectors. In other words we keep looking for the single answer that’s going to solve the whole problem.
The thing is, if you look at the way the fuel consumption curve has progressed in individual vehicles over the years, and you’ll see that it’s been a slow process. I’ll give you a personal example.
When I was growing up, my dad owned a 66 Chevy. A Belair. (Remember, the sub model progression for the fll-sized products then being made at Lordstown, OH, was Biscayne, Belair, Impala, Caprice.)
A full size body, even by the standards of 1966, a 250 CID inline ^ cyl, generating 155 horsepower. A three on the tree. AM Radio. Heater. End of story. He got around 21MPG on the highway with this rig. We could tow about 1000lbs worth of popup with it.
Today, I drive a Buick Rainier, which is essentially a Chevy Trailblazer with a lot of stuff added to it. It’s got a 4.3 L I-6, generating 300 hp, and around 290ft lbs of Tourque. Automatic, all wheel drive. Air, Cruise, Tilt, power everything. Sat Nav Satalite radio. CD changer, AM-FM. Onboard computer systems, leather. Will tow 6000lbs with ease. I get 21-22 to the gallon on the highway.
Much more capable, same MPG. But that progress was over a span of 40 years. If this is decidedly not the product of a magic pill, but a slow and gradually developing process. That evolves over time. It evolves not because the government forcing change down our throats, but because (at the time anyway ) we had a mobile companies that were inspired to develop better vehicles.
When left to their own devices, these kind of developments occur. When government steps in, all of the creative effort is focused on satisfying government, not the consumer.
jerryofva:
You are one uncreative guy. Hybrid technology is not the best we can do. It’s a stepping stone. There will be new technologies available in the future! Ever heard of fuel cells?
Horsepower = fun, but that’s not even what I argued against. Efficiency is totally independent of both horsepower and driving pleasure. Right now, I’m driving a Honda Fit. It’s got some pickup, it’s efficient, and it’s fun (fun to drive, fun to save on gas). I’m guessing you hate small cars simply because they’re small.
By your comments, I have no choice but to believe that you derive your driving pleasure from wasting fuel and polluting. That’s what you’re defending anyway. If that’s what being an American means, count me out. *My* America is one of innovation. If we decide we want performance AND efficiency, then we can do it. What a nation of whiners we’ve become!
Someone75:
If you read my earliest post you would know that I drive a 2005 Jetta TDI as my primary vehicle. At 3000lbs it gets better fuel economy in my daily commute then you get in your POS FiT does on the highway; and diesels produce 25% less CO2 then gasoline engines of similar displacement. The Jetta is equipped with heated leather seats, electronic stability program and many other features not available on your little econobox. Although the TDI is no rocketship it handles like a sports sedan and is a blast to drive. My autobahn engineered Jetta will also keep me alive in most crashes not involving a Hummer.
The problem with fuels cells is finding a way to produce hydrogen without a net energy loss. I have posted in other threads my opinion that T. Boone Pickens has it backwards. Wind power can never be reliable enough to satisfy base load requirements but it can be used to produce the electricity needed to distill water into Hyrdorgen and Oxygen. Since the energy input is available for zero price it doesn’t really matter that hydrogen production is a net energy loser. Yes, we can design and build powerful and fun vehicles powered by hydrogen fuels cells but it will take many years to develop them and build the supporting infrastructure. If we start today we accomplish this task in 10 or 15 years but the Obama administration has eliminated funding for hydrogen fuel cells. They have a different agenda.
You shouldn’t argue cars and engineering with a technically sophisticated auto enthusiast. If you had the knowledge to make an intelligent contribution to this discussion while burnishing your environmental credentials you wouldn’t be driving a Honda Fit. Instead you would have a 15 year old Mercedes 300 SD powered by waste vegetable oil.
It’s too bad that not you probably won’t see this post and I have wasted one my best efforts on the ether.
Someone75: If you read my earliest post you would know that I drive a 2005 Jetta TDI as my primary vehicle. At 3000lbs it gets better fuel economy in my daily commute then you get in your POS FiT does on the highway; and diesels produce 25% less CO2 then gasoline engines of similar displacement. The Jetta is equipped with heated leather seats, electronic stability program and many other features not available on your little econobox. Although the TDI is no rocketship it handles like a sports sedan and is a blast to drive. My autobahn engineered Jetta will also keep me alive in most crashes not involving a Hummer.
The problem with fuels cells is finding a way to produce hydrogen without a net energy loss. I have posted in other threads my opinion that T. Boone Pickens has it backwards. Wind power can never be reliable enough to satisfy base load requirements but it can be used to produce the electricity needed to distill water into Hyrdorgen and Oxygen. Since the energy input is available for zero price it doesn’t really matter that hydrogen production is a net energy loser. Yes, we can design and build powerful and fun vehicles powered by hydrogen fuels cells but it will take many years to develop them and build the supporting infrastructure. If we start today we accomplish this task in 10 or 15 years but the Obama administration has eliminated funding for hydrogen fuel cells. They have a different agenda.
You shouldn’t argue cars and engineering with a technically sophisticated auto enthusiast. If you had the knowledge to make an intelligent contribution to this discussion while burnishing your environmental credentials you wouldn’t be driving a Honda Fit. Instead you would have a 15 year old Mercedes 300 SD powered by waste vegetable oil.
It’s too bad that not you probably won’t see this post and I have wasted one my best efforts on the ether.
Obambi’s motorized coffins will fail at the dealership. This will only go on for a year or so until the government is convinced that they don’t have buy-in to their plan. Then we will be haranged to be ‘patriotic’ and ‘save the environment’ by buying their stupid cars. Too bad!
#110 — I am getting that de ja vu all over again feeling when I see stories like this. It makes me nostalgic for the 70s with all the new types of carburetors (remember those things?) that would make your go 100 miles on a drop of gas.
Of course I remember. But that’s not what I reported.
The company said “up to double” as a target which suggests to me that the gains will likely top out at 25% and vary like crazy per model/use/etc.
I mentioned this because this is a company that makes injectors. Car companies make injectors, not necessarily 3rd party specialists. Yes they devote resources to the problem but fuel injectors are but a fraction of what they do.
This struck me as realistic because in the early 90′s I was involved in a project with Ford creating measurement equipment to be used for silicon micromachined injector nozzles. They hoped to be able to get more precise injector control. Meanwhile the big cheese at the mentioned outfit is a former Ford guy. It would appear as if perhaps this is like the rev 2.0 thinking process depending on internal Ford politics.
And as I said this might be something to look into.