How Hard Will It Be to Convict Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
The government would, of course, also have substantial difficulty now in locating and producing witnesses to testify against the gentleman. Were a motion to dismiss for lack of a speedy trial denied, I would move for a change of venue to someplace outside New York City, where the World Trade Center towers had been demolished, on the grounds that it would be impossible to have a fair trial there. There are currently no federal courts on the Moon, and that’s one of the few places where a suitably impartial jury might be impaneled.
Neither of these problems, or others, would have been presented in a trial by a military commission. However in view of the Supreme Court dicta noted above in Boumediene, it seems likely that the Court would look rather harshly into the procedures in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
As noted above, the Hamdan Court in dictum observed:
It bears emphasizing that Hamdan does not challenge, and we do not today address, the Government’s power to detain him for the duration of active hostilities in order to prevent such harm. But in undertaking to try Hamdan and subject him to criminal punishment, the Executive is bound to comply with the Rule of Law that prevails in this jurisdiction.
The decision to try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in either a military commission or in federal district court need not have been made. He could have been left to languish indefinitely at Gitmo without trial on the grounds that there is simply no way to try him effectively or safely in a civilian court, and that if were he tried and released on a “technicality,” he would present a very clear and present danger to the citizens of the United States and others.
The decision to try the various Gitmo detainees in either a federal criminal court or by a military commission was of course a political one; it was not dictated by legal necessity. The assurances of President Obama and Attorney General Holder that everything will turn out just fine should be understood in that light. If the civilian proceedings withstand speedy trial motions and motions to change venue to the Moon, these trials will drag on for years — perhaps decades — as defense lawyers file endless motions and appeals. Meanwhile, valuable intelligence about interrogation techniques and other methods we’ve used against al-Qaeda will be revealed to the enemy during trial discovery.
I think it was the wrong decision, probably made because (as the New York Times put it):
The Obama administration has yet to completely figure out how to rectify the disgraceful Bush detention policies, but it is getting there.
I disagree with the characterization of the Bush detention policies as “disgraceful,” and don’t think the Obama administration is really “getting there.” However, that will most likely be the line taken by the Obama administration if things do not go as it has said they would.
In any event, the trial is very likely to be a three-ring circus, and consequences are quite likely to reveal the statements of President Obama and General Holder to have been incorrect and poorly considered. I have no idea if, in the event that the civilian court dismisses the charges or produces an acquittal of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, it will be possible to retain him in detainee status. It seems likely that he will, in those circumstances, be released into society.
Even political decisions by the president of the United States should be based on things more important than obeisance to foreign opinion and trying to enhance his status with a leftist constituency.
It’s hard to say who presents the greater threat, the leftist aiders and abettors of terrorists in the Democrat Party, in the court system and in the media, or the terrorists themselves.
“How Hard Will It Be to Convict Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?”
All you need is one piece of evidence, one witness and one broken law. And a swift judge.
Why complicate things?
From the outset, it will be impossible to convict the terrorists. No way. Not gonna happen.
First – two words “Miranda Rights?” Do you think there was any time that, like on NYPD Blue, the troops who captured these guys felt that they should have a right to remain silent? Now bring that into a US court…
Second, and more important, the ACLU and others will state that you cannot have a jury of your peers if you don’t have a fair number of Muslims on the panel. While I accept that many American Muslims are model citizens, I am sure that in the jury selection they will select those who hold their faith above everything. They will not convict a fellow believer. ERGO, the BEST we can hope for is a hung jury.
All this so we can have a show trial to blame Bush for everything bad in the world.
Too late to unring the bell of complicated trial. It’s an industry.
To 2. vivo
You’ve never met a lawyer have you?
Their is no way that they can be convicted of anything expect minor crimes… unless this is a complete show trial… which is pretty standard fair for leftwingers… hitler, stalin, mao, etc all used them.
Pretty much the majority of evidence with get thrown out quickly because its all fruits of the poisonous tree…
Their going to have a very hard time entering any evidence that post 9/11 and more so post capture.
“All you need is one piece of evidence, one witness and one broken law. And a swift judge.
Why complicate things?”
You need a piece of evidence gathered legally according to prevailing interpretations of the Constitutional rights of defendants. Does the government have any? If not, how could it get any now?
Our criminal justice system is based upon giving defense attorneys myriad opportunities to complicate things.
The sole purpose of this trial is to put Bush and Cheney on trial before the world. Nothing good will come of this, which is a case of BDS meeting the law of unintended consequences.
where will we find a jury that will vote to convict knowing that they and their family will then be subject to death as retribution? this whole sordid affair proves that obama and holder are not very bright, after all.
The acquittal of KSM or other serious enemies might well be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for ordinary Americans with this regime.
It’s all to be able to run against Bush in 2010 and 2012. It has nothing at all to do with legal constructs but everything to do with politics and Obama’s world view.
Convict him of what? Where? He planned and committed an act of war.
He committed the crime of sawing Daniel Peal’s head off in Pakistan… good luck getting him convicted of murdering a Jew in Pakistan.
KSM was not arrested, he was captured by Pakistani security forces and turned over to the US as an illegal combatant war prisoner (not a conventional POW due Geneva Convention rights). KSM and his crew are terrorists, partisans, saboteurs who are accorded no particular rights in the Geneva Conventions. He could have been summarily executed at any time, and only US Military Codes prevent that from occurring without a military hearing.
In a US court system situation, KSM walks. 1) He was not arrested, not processed, and not Mirandized so the case can be dismissed for lack of substantive due process. 2) He was detained without hearing, bond, or charges being filed for almost 8 years. Again, grounds for dismissal rear their ugly heads. 3) There is scant evidence of much of anything that has been gathered, recorded, or cataloged in any methodology recognized by any competent court. 4) Much of the evidence against him was obtained by coercive and extremely harsh interrogation techniques. All this is subject for exclusion from the evidentiary proceedings.
The critical issue that is continually being missed by the “legalistic” world is: WAR is an act of SOVEREIGNTY. It is NOT a Judicial act.
We are at war with them because they have DECLARED that THEY are at WAR with us. Regardless of our hubris in asserting the contrary, we will have war visited upon us by our enemies.
Logically and physically Sovereignty must precede governance. This nation has asserted one form of sovereignty or another since it appointed a Commander in Chief in May of 1775, and proceeded to issue currency and establish diplomatic relations. None of these functions are vested in Judiciary; NONE.
The mere act of attempting to try international terrorists as “criminals” stands the relationship between sovereignty and governance on its head. The logical fallacy will cause a massive collapse.
A nation can be sovereign without modern justice. Modern judicial philosophy and practice is merely pipe-dream and ceremony without Sovereign authority. To make the Sovereign dependent upon the tertiary power of the judiciary is national suicide.
The Left (of which the Elite “conservatives” intellectually belong) is malignantly ignorant of the concepts of national sovereignty, sovereign action, and sovereign rights. Western Civilization is paying a dear price for this functional insanity.
KSM should have been executed years ago, along with his cohorts, as is allowed by international standard, and the Geneva Conventions.
This circus is planned by people who have no use for the sovereignty of the United States of America. Unfortunately we have put them in charge. One wonders why anyone is surprised that the Left is now purposefully going about destroying that which they hate so.
A judge who is a patriot should immediately declare that there is no jurisdiction for any court to hear the case, order the prisoners to be remanded to the custody of the Department of Defense, and deported to be dealt with under the rules long established for dealing with those who commit acts of war upon this nation.
Regards,
The Mighty Fahvaag
Just to be clear:
these terrorists have committed WAR CRIMES and the Geneva Convention orders their summary execution.
Everything else is bullshit, subversive bullshit.
But then again, I have no Soros to finance me and put me in the White House, so…
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
I agree that the “change of venue” process alone will be a nightmare, as will finding an unbiased jury. Treating terrorists as criminals is what allowed 9/11 to happen, and as with so many things this administration is showing that it doesn’t know what it is doing.
I haven’t got passed the part where a foreign national, captured by a foreign government on foreign soil is granted the rights of an American citizen for a fair trial.
Isn’t there a venue issue in N.Y.C.? Isn’t one of the roots of 9/11 and this trial based on Clinton’s refusal to acknowledge AK’s and bid Ladin’s declaration of war against the U.S. in 1996?
Here’s a thought:
Don’t bother with the trial. Announce that KSM has renounced jihad, converted to Christianity, married a Jewish wife and provided the US with valuable intelligence. Then fly him to the Pakistan/Afghan border and let him go. I am confident that we’ll never hear from him again.
Where’s Jack Ruby when you need him?
It is patently absurd that this bit of sewage will appear in a US court. When he decided to act as a terrorist he placed himself outside of the law, literally an outlaw. His capture, as opposed to battlefield execution (the prescribed treatment for those fighting without military status and uniform), was solely for intel purposes.
Until a law-enforcement agency with jurisdiction charges him and a court has been found that is competent to hear his case he does not fall under normal criminal prosecution. Rationally the strictures on evidence collection should not apply until he came under the protection of the SCOTUS, he never was a US citizen, was captured in a different soveriegn country.
IIRC the “speedy trial” provision is concerned with the period between being criminally charged and the opening of the trial proceedings.
On the other hand, this whole story is an excellent example of a fundamental problem of democracy: how can democracy be defended from those who use it against itself ? In this specific case, the cleverness (not the intelligence) of the subversives has transformed the problem into:
how can justice be defended from those who use it against itself ?
The problem is ethical and logical at the same time and it is usually synthesized in the sentence “hitler has been ELECTED”.
In our case the danger is:
“terrorist X has been acquitted “.
The problem is serious. Any attempt to defend democracy against enemies from inside results in totalitarianism…but NOT defending democracy from enemies from inside results…in totalitarianism too !
Where is Thomas Jefferson when you need him ??????????????????
Thank you for the opportunity to comment
People who favor a civilian trial for KSM and his henchmen argue that it will raise our reputation in the rest of the world. Yeah, right. If the conspirators are convicted, Muslims around the world will call them martyrs. If acquitted, heros. Either way, the Palestinians who danced in the streets at the news of 9/11 are going to hate us just as much.
Many Muslims in this country and elsewhere already believe that the mass murders of 9/11 were a plot by the CIA and/or the Mossad. They’re going to regard a civilian trial for the Guantanamo prisoners as just another hoax.
You know, Dan, if expediency is needed, a bullet from an M16 costs just a shekel and a half here (including 15½% VAT), and at short range to the head takes all of 3 seconds. Somehow, given everything at risk here, that bullet seems a whole lot more just.
Screw the trial.
We are very naive if we really believe that Obama and his lapdog Holder want a fair trial for these terrorists. Their sole purpose in creating this circus is to discredit Bush. This travesty is so blatantly political that, regardless of the outcome, justice will not be served.
Anyone who believes this decision by Holder was made without the Coward-in-Chief’s OK is living in a dream world. It’s not coincidence that Obama was out of the country when Holder announced this decision.
It would serve justice if these five murdering terrorists were placed before a firing squad and summarily executed.
Congress can stop this right now. Congress has the power to “Define and punish . . . Offences against the law of Nations . . . and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water . . . .” U.S. Const. art. I, sec. 8, cl. 10 and 11. “Offences against the law of Nations” simply means acts of war and “Rules concerning Captures” gives Congress the authority of what to do with those who committed acts of war.
This simply means that Congress can create legislation which denies Obama and Holder the choice of trying terrorists in civilian courts. Call your represenatives and senators (especially if your members are feigning outrage) and demand they put an end to this circus.
It is doubtless true, as Mr. Horowitz observes, that civilian trial of a terrorist detained at Gitmo is likely to divulge all sorts of information to others, that it will be necessary for the prosecution to weigh very carefully what evidence can be used consistently with the national interest in security, and that in even the best of circumstances, it will be “a propaganda gift to Islamic murderers who will turn the courtroom into a media circus to promote their hatred against the Great Satan.”
It might be, but you certainly didn’t provide any evidence to prove it.
There is an interesting post on the Wall Street Journal’s Law Blog suggesting that KSM’s own un-coerced statements may be a way around some of these difficulties: Exhibit A against KSM: His own uncoerced statements.
Holder is an incompetent America hating twit whose actions are a clear and present danger to our security and rule of law.
The people ought to be tried somewhere, somehow, but to do it in a court where we try ordinary criminals….this is really judicial over reach for non-US citizens. And a product of people who have been in politics all their lives.
Imagine if Hitler had given himself up and been taken to court.
“War? Your Roosevelt secretly declared war on germany with secret aid to Britain, Lend Lease and the destroyer transfer!” (“NAZI LEADER CONDEMNS FDR: SAYS US STARTED IT.”)
“Our camps? I want discovery on what you’ve done to the indians and interned Japanese to see what you did. And what about american blacks?” (“US VIOLATED RIGHTS TOO, NOTES DEPOSED DICTATOR”).
“Bad things? What about that experiment where american scientists failed to notify infected african americans?” And let’s discuss firebombing Dresden and tokoyo.” (“SHAME OF US ON TRIAL WITH DICTATOR: CAN WE JUDGE HIM?”)
“I want discovery ” (“FDR ILL, EISENHOWER DECLINES TO TESTIFY: ‘NOT GOING TO SPEND MONTHS ON THE STAND’: PROSECUTION’S CASE IN DOUBT.”)
JUDGE DISMISSES CASE: US NOT ABOVE THE LAW: MAY NOT RAILROAD DEFENDANT” JUDGE SAYS.
MoHo
Were you Wily coyote in another life?
While the rest of us are concerned about dhimitude, you’ve sly cornered the market in dimmitude. If you insist upon waiting for proof that your assailent is intent on harming you, you can expect to be maimed. Prudent people prefer to minimize personal risk. And so do nations. Is this a difficult concept for
15. Paul from Hamburg:
I like your solution the best. The only thing I would add is take a picture of him eating and tell the world he likes pork!
You know, Iraq proved to be an effective magnet attracting the Taliban, jihadists anad other assorted scumbags allowing the US miitary to decimate them. This trial will transform New York into a similar magnet and might permit equivalent results. It would take adequate preparation and determination, of course. It woudl be messy. But New Yorkers have proven that they can adapt to even the most unpleasant conditions.
carla, you can’t be a dhimmi if you’re a Muslim. Moho’s no dhimmi, he’s a Muslim.
Iraq proved to be an effective magnet drawing legions of Taliban, jihadists and other assorted scumbags into a killing field allowing the US military to decimate them. Maybe the show trial can transform NY City into a similar rat trap. It would require adequate preparation and determination. New Yorkers might object to a escalation in violence, but they are used to adverse conditions and would adapt.
I agree with others. There is only one purpose to this ‘trial’ and it has nothing to do with the terrorists. It’s a stritctly and only political strategy.
The agenda is to put the Bush/Cheney presidency on trial. This is a political election strategy to hide the disastrous economic results of the Obama/Democratic socialist agenda. That is, this is an election strategy. Nothing to do with justice. This will be used in 2010 and particularly in 2012. It’s all about Obama and Power
John -TMF – very nice arguments. I have some questions. I agree that war is an act of sovereignty, not a judicial act, which is one reason why the left, who support the trial because it will ‘show the world how good the American justice system is’…are talking nonsense.
The American Justice system is not now and never was on trial.
My question to you is: you state that sovereignty must precede governance. Yes, I agree. BUT, can it be maintained without governance i.e., without a constitution and rule of law?
Yes, I agree that a nation can be sovereign without modern justice, i.e., as in the rule of an absolute monarch, dictator. But in a modern era, is sovereignty above the law? Isthe sovereign acting only by His Sovereign Will?That’s a Hobbesian concept.
But, the US constitution includes the right of resistance against the sovereign/president if he violates the law. Therefore, in this model, a sovereign operates within Reason, i.e., according to the Law.
I recommend Jean Bethke Elshtain’s ‘Sovereignty: God, State and Self.
I think terrorism, is an action, not against the security of the people, i.e., it is not a criminal act. It is a military act against the sovereignty of the nation. As such, it must be tried in a military court.
LOL
If you insist upon waiting for proof that your assailent is intent on harming you, you can expect to be maimed.
Yes, by all means, shoot first. That’s what all the smart folks do.
The only good thing about this coming charade is that it will become a massive millstone tied around the neck of Barry Zero, and not even his protective dogs in the mainstream media will be able to protect him from an annoyed public sickened by the daily antics of a thousand ACLU lawyers loosed upon Manhattan for months. This will become Case Study A of the absurdities of liberalism run amok, with the end result likely an acquittal or hung jury for one of the greatest villains in American history. This will be Zero’s Watergate, his Lewinsky scandal, his Iraq war.
Once the defense is able to drag Bush, Cheney, the military torturers and every secret agency person with records that have any connection to KSM, the trial should be pretty quick. The key event will be, however, whether Holder gets his price for a pardon, like with Marc Rich.
Hey, if Holder won’t tackle Black Panthers in Philadelphia, he is going to push KSM in NYC. Although, since Obama is determined to destroy America, maybe Holder will turn over the text of every intercepted telephone conversation with a muslim terrorist over ten years,thereby, destroying intelligence assets that could be used against Obama’s fellow muslims in the future.
Carla – I don’t think that one minimizes risk against personal safety only by one’s individual actions but by developing a Rule of Law for all citizens. This law is meant to secure the safety and well-being of everyone and to mitigate the actions of individual Will or individual intent.
The problem with Islam, which is a 7th c. political, economic and social ideology, cloaked in the cocoon of a religion, is that it merges the Rule of Law with its religious dogma. And its rule of law insists that its members conquer everyone else. This then becomes a religious requirement!
That’s why Islam needs to be reformed, to separate the 7th c. tribal mindset from its religious axioms..and these religious axioms are very few and primarily taken from the Judaic religion of the era.
But Islam needs to move out of the 7th c and into a modern societal structure, separating ‘church and state’ – and thus, Muslim people must accept the rule of law of whichever nation they live in.
moho: I see that the frontal lobotomy worked well. The randomness of your keystrokes is improving.
moHo;
Naw. Just stand there with that shitfaced expression on your face, and take it like a (sic) man. That’s what a real intellectual would do. Never, ever shoot first. In fact, never shoot. Just roll over and die. Because you’re so obviusly morally superior. And just think of of those magnificent eulogies you’ll have earned, and how proud your family will be of you. . And your goodness will be remembered by your friends for, for,………..maybe eight seconds after they shovel dirt on your carcass. Never, ever actually defend yourself. That would take a bit of grit and resolve. Better to be an (ex) mewling wimp. Absolutley, that would be the smart thing to do. I have it on the authority of VIVO, that ubermench of leftwing thought, that killing somebody never solves any problems. The question is, Oh Mighty Thinker, does your dying solve any?
Impossible to try or convict these terrorist however the idea is to try G. W. Bush and his admin along with the Iraq war and I believe the ones who thought this bullshit up will succeed in finding the Bush Admin guilty of something, anything to salve the tortured souls and brains of W haters all over the world.
That it will destroy the attempts to fight islam never seems to come up on the BDS sufferor’s radar.
I’m a lawyer. I’m certainly not in the same league with big-time Justice Department honchos and the elite defense team that will be put together for these trials, but a lawyer nevertheless. If I had to choose just one place where the wheels are going to come off in these proceedings it will be Pre-Trial Discovery under Rule 16. The discovery phase by itself will take months and is sure to generate enough challenges by the defense to keep the appeals process going through the next decade. The defense will concentrate on seeking the disclosure of any and all materials that are not only relevant but which are also embarassing to the (Bush) government regardless of relevance. Each step in the process will give the defense the opportunity for media-friendly grandstanding to further contaminate the jury pool. In the immortal words of Bette Davis, “Fasten your seatbelts. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.”
Shoot first? F’n A! And always, f’n double tap, Momo!!! If’n you want the zombie dead, that is.
#30. I think she meant ‘dummy’.
ETAB
Yes, yes, yes. BUT, the bottom line is that if you don’t learn to defend yourself, you’re SOL. Just ask your local cop. And laws etc are fine and dandy, and lawful folk are super-duper. On the other hand, criminals and terrorists ignore laws (res ipsi loquator). As for reforming Islam, lots of luck. I was looking for a solution during my lifetime, and my childrens and grandchildrens lifetime. Islam is less of a religion and more of a political movement. I refer you to Clauwitz re the most appropriate response when civil discourse provides no protection from an alternative agressive political system.
Maurice said it best: this will be the millstone that sinks Obama and his adminstration. How do you try a man under the US legal system who was captured in a third country by non-law enforcement personnel, and who has been held (incognito) in military custody for seven years?
The AG has basically committed himself to proving KSM’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt while guaranteeing that his constitutional rights (for a non-US citizen captured and held outside the US, under extraordinary circumstances by military personal not trained in law enforcement and evidentiary requirements) are protected. So Holder has to ensure KSM’s protection, prosecution, conviction, and fair treatment under the law – while somehow constraining KSM’s ability to use this forum for jihadi propaganda purposes. I don’t see how that will happen, and this becomes the foreign policy disaster many predict, exposing the current administration as the bad actors they really are.
Remember the Islamic terrorist, yes I said it, will have info on the jurors.
All jurors will recieve a visit or two from friends of the accused.
No jury will last long enough, if not dead they will quit. How will you enforce jury tampering?
If KSM proves he is a member of the Black Panthers, will Holder refuse to prosecute him?
One question which had occurred to me in passing, and then slipped away inexcusably, is “Has there been an indictment?” That’s something a grand jury is supposed to do; that’s required under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. I have seen no reports about that sort of thing, just the announcement by Holder et al that there would be a trial in federal court in which capital punishment would be sought. According to the Fifth Amendment,
“No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger. . . .”
There is a discussion of what all that means at the link. Essentially, an “infamous crime” is one punishable by a year or more in a penitentiary. A capital crime is, well, obvious.
I suppose there has been or will soon be a grand jury proceeding, which could take some time. Eventually, if there is an indictment, it will presumably become public.
Never, ever actually defend yourself.
I’ve never needed a gun to defend myself, lol. I’m sure that your gun makes you more masculine [or in your case, more super-feminine, or whatever crazy power you think a gun gives you]. I’ve fought off muggers several times in my life; it requires courage, intelligence and confidence. I also realize that life is not a guarantee; I will die someday, and so will my family. That’s the price we pay for being alive and enjoying every facet of what it is to be alive. It gives you courage to face life’s uncertainties, and the certainty of death.
Lacking that, as most of the people attracted to your cause do, I suggest you do get a gun. Its the great equalizer for cowards afraid to live their lives and asking Big Brother to pass laws to restrict their freedom so that they can pretend to live forever or to invade countries so that you won’t wet your pants. Or criminals and terrorists, creating their own rules and enforcing them with violence. You’re all exactly the same kind of people, except the criminals and terrorists have more resolve and gumption.
I can’t wait for KSM’s defense attorney to hold up a dripping waterboard and say to the jury,
“If the board made him talk, you must let him walk.”
Steven
ETAB:
Most nation-states, city-states/tribal-states are governed by some form of the combination of brute force and subservience. This is as it has been since we have had any rational record. Neither constitution, nor formal governance is necessary. Only force, cohesion at the ruling class, and acquiescence of the ruled is required.
Our democratically elected constitutional republican form of government with an almost automatic franchise is very unique in human history. It is also extremely fragile.
Sovereignty is the “Will to form and maintain a State”. Baring that “will”, the state ceases to exist, and any chance of governing the organization of any governing structure irrational. I had said impossible but without a nation, the rule of law, law in general is like the hole in Swiss cheese. Without the cheese… it is nothing.
Our nation predates the Constitution, and it actually predates the Declaration of Independence. Technically the 2nd Continental Congress formed a nation in May 1775 in response to the British attacks in Massachusetts and Virginia. It selected a Commander in Chief, formed a government, printed money, and sent forth ambassadors/agents/emissaries to negotiate with foreign powers.
Plenary powers are held in the hands of the Head of State, supported by Legislative agreement. The Judiciary has nothing at all to do with plenary power, it is wholly dependent upon the Executive and the Legislative for all of its authority. The truth is that their is only one Constitutionally required Judicial office, and that is the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. All others are creatures of Legislative acts.
Of course the Legislature is pointless without a state.
So. Sovereignty trumps all. The rest is window dressing and good intentions.
R.The Mighty Fahvaag
The US justice system is on trial, not KSM.
They cannot try spies or enemy agents because trying them will expose intelligence gathering methods, and intelligence sources.
We either convict KSM on the flimsiet evidence because real evidence sources cannot be reviewed, or find him not guilty.
Within a year, our foreign policy is demolished, our economy is demolished, now our justice system. I hope these are the changes that the voters were looking for.
Steven
You should have thought of that before you creamed your jeans over torture. The only logical next step is to decertify the constitution, since it gets in the way so often.
The KSM show trials will only be used as a means to bash President George W. Bush & Vice President Dick Cheney & by extension to tell how bad America is to terrorists; however, the unintended consequences will be the result of the freedom of said terrorists within the United States since no classified data will be released as evidence. This should crater the Obama Administration. O is already on his way to the bottom with his boulder parachute…
Sherab Zangpo, the Islamic terrorists really are not covered by the Geneva Convention since they have no standard identifiable uniform in battle; they use stealth by blending in with the civilians. KSM should not be covered by the Geneva Convention for this & other reasons. But President Bush placed him under the Geneva Convention out of political correctness from the howls of the Left wanting mercy…
He’ll get mercy alright when he is acquitted of the very war crimes he committed. The Left lives in the looking glass. Eric Holder is the King of Hearts. Obama is the grass.
“People who favor a civilian trial for KSM and his henchmen argue that it will raise our reputation in the rest of the world.”
Well, that’s swell if your goal in life is to be loved by “Palestinian” swine, left wing maggots, America-hating Euro-trash, U.N bureaucrats and and other assorted quasi-human lifeforms.
But, my current goal in life is to exterminate terrorists, not to impress the Noam Chomsky’s of the world, so a trial in the civilian courts is counter-productive.
The kind of trial we gave captured German saboteurs in WWII, a secret trial carried out by an ad hoc military commission convened by order of the POTUS, followed by the swift execution of the saboteurs, with no interference from the civilian courts is what’s called for here, and whether or not that enhances our “reputation” is of monumental unimportance.
What’s important is to liquidate (liquidate means to exterminate them like the rats they are) terrorists, not to impress the morons of the world with how fair we are when it comes to dealing with people who take American children captive and then murder them by flying them into the sides of buildings.
What if KSM get convicted and then get his sentence commuted?
John – TMF
With regard to your comment:
“Most nation-states, city-states/tribal-states are governed by some form of the combination of brute force and subservience. This is as it has been since we have had any rational record.”
I’ll disgree with your dyad of brute force and subservience. Certainly, they are part of the tribal mode, but I don’t think that you can ignore that no societal system is without ideology, customs, oral rules and traditions, and abstract or metaphysical forces that punish and reward.
The society didn’t operate just by force of the ruling class and acceptance of the ruled, though BOTH are evident, but only within a reference to the ‘higher’ customs, gods/spirits and ideology. Any group, be it hunting/gathering, tribal, city-state, exists within ‘normative modes of belief and behavior’.
The written codes of law emerged in larger populations.
I agree that sovereignty is the Will to form, and function, as a state. However I can’t see that any state (and I include the pre-literate ones) can exist without rules or code of normaive belief and behavior.
Therefore, I don’t see that ‘sovereignty trumps all’ because without a normative reality, the Will remains an Abstract. A comparison would be the Will to Live. Without a material reality that operates within normative rules, that Will can’t be expressed. [basic Aristotle, Ithink].
“What if KSM get convicted and then get his sentence commuted?”
Then we’ll have one more reason to alter or abolish a government that can’t or won’t protect the rights of those it governs (too busy protecting the non-existent rights of terrorist scum like Khalid).
“Within a year, our foreign policy is demolished.”
Interesting observation. It seems reasonable to assume that some of the evidence against KSM et al will have been provided by foreign governments, which would prefer not to have that known and would prefer not to have their own intelligence sources revealed — either to the public or to defense counsel. That makes a lot of sense.
There was an opinion released today by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals affirming the sentence of Lynne Stewart, a now disbarred attorney who had defended “the blind sheik” in federal court in New York in 2006 and was thereafter convicted of passing messages for him from prison urging his followers to launch terrorist attack. She had been sentenced to 28 months in prison but has been free pending appeal. Today, the 2d Circuit affirmed the conviction, ordered her to be imprisoned immediately and remanded the case to the Federal District Court to reconsider its sentence as having been too lenient. I’ve been trying to get a copy of the more or less 200 page opinion, but it does not seem to be up yet on the ‘net.
Was KSM the one who planted the bombs?
48. moho:
I’ve never needed a gun to defend myself, lol. I’m sure that your gun makes you more masculine [or in your case, more super-feminine, or whatever crazy power you think a gun gives you]. I’ve fought off muggers several times in my life; it requires courage, intelligence and confidence.
Of course you’ve “fought off muggers several times in my life,” you dopey fabulist. And I have fought off vampire unicorns with my bare hands. What a conceited lying twit you are, fabricating courageous tales just to try to make a pathetic point.
The one lesson that should be learned is that future orders to military commanders in the War on Terror should include one to take no prisoners.
I do not believe that Obama or Holder are incompetent. They set out to destroy American justice and they are succeeding in doing just that. Trying these terrorist in a court of law is going to turn into the biggest goat rope this country has ever seen. The ACLU will defend this scum of the earth, and that should be enough to scare the hell out of the law abiding people of this country.Millions and millions of dollars will be spent providing a stage for these terrorist to vent their hatred for this country. This will be an embarrassment to our country and we can thank Obama for it!
MOHO
I am a member of a trap and skeet club. Would you consider holding the targets for us??
I don’t know whether moho ever had to deal with muggers; maybe he has, maybe he hasn’t. I do guarantee that he has never been jumped by six SEIU goons at once like they were caught on camera doing at a Town Hall Meeting to a guy passing out “Don’t Tread on Me” flags. I bet a gun would’ve come in handy there. Even Chuck Norris in his prime would have had a hard time fighting six men at once unarmed.
ETAB,
First off, I want to thank you for the thoughtful discussion. I appreciate it, and they are rare enough these days.
Unfortunately I cannot find in any part of history a functional example of a nation state being exerted by custom, tradition, ethos, etc.
Yes, I do agree that they are helped along, and to a very large degree, especially in the tribal form of nationhood, the very definition of the boundaries of the nation. It is useful to note at this point that the Westphalian construct of defined and stable territory is very western, and a tentative step beyond brute force to stabilize nationhood, but it failed miserably until recently, and is still barely successful.
All of what you are saying is nice, it makes for a culture but it does nothing to ablate the benefits of raw power.
For all of our civilized trappings, we still must abide by the law of nature and it is above all the survival of the fittest.
He who has the biggest fist and the willingness to use it wins. He who wins writes the history.
Thanks again.
The Mighty Fahvaag
I’m not so sure its KSM as much as the Bush administration thats going to be put on trial.
“I am quite confident that the outcomes in these cases will be successful ones.” Eric Holder
KSM might agree that the events of 9/11 were successful outcomes.
Does Holder describe what his definition of a successful outcome is?
Don Rodrigo:
Of course you’ve “fought off muggers several times in my life,” you dopey fabulist. And I have fought off vampire unicorns with my bare hands. What a conceited lying twit you are, fabricating courageous tales just to try to make a pathetic point.
Your response outs you as a sheltered, phobic cul-de-saced coward. Of course I’ve fought off muggers–I don’t anyone who hasn’t. Male, female, gay friends. Everyone I know has had at least one or two encounters where they faced off a mugger and walked away with their cash. And when they haven’t, they’ve given it away with dignity. I assume, from your response that such a situation is as plausible to you as meeting a vampire, that you would piss your sheltered little pants in such a situation.
It’s apparent that the game has changed. In fact, society is experiencing some fundamental changes in its make up. Just as the digital age has unleashed many questions concerning copyright, privacy, law enforcement, ownership, jurisdiction, and so on, so has terrorism changed our approach to defending our country and its citizens. It probably is not as difficult as it appears. We just need to be thinking in completely new categories, as we rewrite the rules for social order. The difficulty is maintaining the sovereignty of the state and the checks and balances necessary to prevent an oppressive regime. Who knows, in the end a monarchy may not be such a bad idea.
Moho is a bullet proof ninja muslim. Stick to the roads, stay clear of the moors and beware the full moho!
Another consideration of having announced this future trial is that it distracts the news cycle away from congress. The big dig deficit, unemployment, the insurance take over, and cap-n-trade go the way of boredom and disconnect when we see those hairy pictures of KSM. This administration is a master of smoke and mirrors. “Look over here while this is taken away over there.” No wonder the MSM likes the prez. He sure churns a load of diverse copy for their job security.
Here is a suggestion that the Congress might do something. There is, evidently, a 45 day waiting period before anyone can be brought in from Gitmo for trial.
“lawmakers say that it is not an absolutely done deal that the trial will take place in the United States as Holder plans. ‘By statute, the administration is required to give Congress 45 days’ notice before they move anyone out of Guantanamo Bay to the U.S.,” says the well-connected aide. ‘We’re in that 45-day period now.’”
Attorney General Holder is to appear before the Senate Judiciary Committee tomorrow, and there will be lots of questions.
If anyone hears anything about an actual KSM indictment by grand jury (see comment # 47, I sure would like to know about it. I haven’t seen anything yet.
Let this be a lesson to never take prisoners, ever again,…………especially, if they are our elected terrorists.
John -TMF – Ah yes,but the biggest fist is not necessarily a physical fist. It could be an intellectual fist.
Not all societies, or people living as a collective, are ‘nation-states’. All people, however, are geographic; i.e., they live in a particular terrain and assume some control or ‘right-to-live’ in that space.
And all peoples live within ‘normative habits of belief and behavior’. These include their normative habits of marriage, economic tasks, gender and age and task differentiation, rules of heredity, beliefs about morality, etc.
The ‘nation-state’ is a 15th and later development. [I consider the irrigation societies of Egypt, Aztec, Inca, etc to be more in the line of 'city-states', a minor point.] Certainly, they operated within a clear outline of normative beliefs and behaviour, which were gradually articulated in written and legal form.
Tribal rights to hold on to land weren’t always asserted, and gained, by brute force, for tribes cannot always afford to lose warriors. In many small population tribes, the confrontations were ‘show’; they were public, they were ritualistic, but they were not meant to decimate the other peoples.
The nation states, with their rising populations, were indeed focused on obtaining more resources, but, I’d say that intellectual superiority, i.e., technological capacities, became The Fist, rather than brute force.
“I am quite confident that the outcomes in these cases will be successful ones.”
Define ‘success’ Holder.
There is a collective death wish at work in America. We’re in the realm of group psychopathology, not politics–and there is no cure. This is how civilizations die.
He will walk. thanks to Holder, Obama, ACLU…and our nation will be back to the dark ages.
48. moho.
“I’ve fought off muggers several times in my life; it requires courage, intelligence and confidence.”
Aren’t muggers just small time? Take that trip to the Central African Republic with your family and broadcast that moho has arrived and that he will use his “courage and intelligence” to protect his family from harm. Take a day trip down any country road. What will you do when your family is Saddamized by your hosts, with you looking on? Will you wish for a gun to kill them or yourself?
“… the criminals and terrorists have more resolve and gumption.”
“Resolve and gumption” to rip the life piece by piece out your loved ones.
Will you “wet your pants” during the first rape, or the the first murder?
Maybe Van Jones will come by and guarantee your safety.
Next. Moral relativism.
40 chambers:
The discovery phase by itself will take months and is sure to generate enough challenges by the defense to keep the appeals process going through the next decade.
chambers, I suspected that this case will have so many snags that the trial itself would run longer than Holder’s tenure. I suppose the AG who succeeds him could drop the case and dispose of KSM in some other way?
“Yes, by all means, shoot first. That’s what all the smart folks do.”
Smart folks don’t believe in a moon god who tells them to blow themselves up as the only way to ensure they make it to paradise in the afterlife, especially when that moon god admits in his own book that he isn’t god and is satanic. So, your opinion of what smart folks do doesn’t carry any weight with anyone not brainwashed by the same rock kissers who brainwashed you.
have a nice day
There is a collective death wish at work in America. We’re in the realm of group psychopathology, not politics–and there is no cure. This is how civilizations die.
Indeed, I totally agree. When civilizations start needless wars to drain their coffers and create new enemies, even while arrogantly ignoring the enemies and problems they already have, and engage in bread and circuses entertainment to distract the masses [the Jihad fixation. Think about it you idiots. Even if every jihadist were stamped out tomorrow, you'd still owe more than half of your GDP to China]. Your leaders have always owned you, but in their defense, its always been easy to buy your loyalty. They simply give you a safe way to ostracize other groups, and you’ll do almsot anything for the privilege. That’s how they’ve kept you poor, fat and stupid for generations and why you’re the laughing stock of the civilized [and uncivilized for that matter] world.
Take heart. If the beasts go free or the trial becomes an unmanageable circus, it may very well be the undoing of the Obama administration and the end of Oba Mao’s Presidency.
# 60 abcdefg: In his haste to post something controversial this balloon just proves he hasn’t the slightest clue what the KSM trial is about at all. But he is willing to post nonsense and expose himself as an ignorant left wing PC moonbat.
MOHO who started the wars the USA or the Islamists who IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD flew their aircraft in to the Twin Towers and the Taliban in Afghanistan who gave them refuge and aid and REFUSED to give them up to International justice. Who invaded Kuwait then REFUSED repeatedly to comply with UN sanctions MOHO. Please go and peddle your Mohammedan propaganda somewhere else like the Daily Kos where they have hundreds of Mohammedans like you and fools who know no better.
5. robotech master:
“You’ve never met a lawyer have you?”
I know what you mean, these bastard lawyers are just to make money knowing that their client is guilty. OJ Simpson anyone? Forget the Jury.
6. adam:
“Our criminal justice system is based upon giving defense attorneys myriad opportunities to complicate things.”
Makes you feel like crying . . . I call that INJUSTICE.
Point aside,
Maybe NY is the right place to bring these guys to, anything can happen . . . A deranged Muslim avenger maybe? A Lee Harvey Oswald?
“Take heart. If the beasts go free or the trial becomes an unmanageable circus, it may very well be the undoing of the Obama administration and the end of Oba Mao’s Presidency.”
That would be great, but I’d rather see Khalid’s severed head on a platter.
# 86 Please enlighten us VIVO why would a MUSLIM want to kill the Sheik after all they were dancing in the streets in ALL Mohammedan countries as they watched the Twin Towers fall.
85. Pragmatist:
When I read the ignorance in moho’s comments, couched in such superciliously condescending terms, I’m immediately reminded of the last time I found myself listening to such blithering idiocy. That was back in college and uttered by self-identified intellectuals whose complete lack of logic and cause/effect would have gotten them tossed off a marginal high school debating team. And no one but a blithering idiot would expect anyone with any level of life experience, or for that matter common sense, to consider moho’s comment #48 as anything but comic relief.
Kos is indeed full of tools like moho, but I think he’s numbered in that magnitude greater population of useful fools than the Mohammedans there. Moho’s take on Islam has never shown even passing understanding of it. I believe that aspect of his online construct has no more veracity than the rest of his claims.
James Thurber understood and wrote a short story about the sense of inadequacy in handling the challenges of life that drives losers like moho to fantasize called “The Secret Life of Walter Mitty”. He wrote it over 70 years ago, but it’s as helpful in understanding what drives the internal fantasy life of online poseurs like moho as it was in the 1930′s.
Commuter -
“Moho’s take on Islam has never shown even passing understanding of it. I believe that aspect of his online construct has no more veracity than the rest of his claims.”
You’re probably right on that score. He obviously hasn’t memorized the Koran nor has he even read much if any of it. In fact, mohole probably uses one personality to play mooslim and another to play atheist or whatever else he thinks is useful at the moment.
Regards
‘NBC’s Chuck Todd asked Obama about some Americans offended by the decision to transfer detainees, including Mohammed, from Guantanamo Bay to New York.’
‘”I don’t think it will be offensive at all when he’s convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him,” Obama said.’
Sounds like our president already knows how the trial’s going to turn out.
If I was Khalid, I think I’d be drawing up my will right about now.
I don’t think letting Khalid off the hook is part of the liberals’ game plan.
Of course he is going to be convicted. You would have to be dumb as hell to think Obama would allow him to come to trial if the outcome wasn’t already known.
But then Obama brings up the death penalty, which will vastly swell the ranks of AQ and other terrorist groups. Which in turn means more dead Soldiers.
Obviously in no way prejudging the outcome of KSM’s trial, President Obama said that “those offended by the legal rights accorded Mohammed by virtue of his facing a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won’t find it ‘offensive at all when he’s convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him.’” He apparently relied on Attorney General Holder, who said he is certain the men will be convicted, but that even if acquitted, “that doesn’t mean that person would be released into our country.” I wonder what it would mean. Indefinite detention? That he would be sent to some other country?
I guess that if President Obama (sort of, without prejudging anything) promises they will be convicted and given the death penalty, and Attorney General Holder says they will be but even if not it does not really matter, we should trust them. Unfortunately, I don’t.
43. Carla, you are quite correct. You make a damn good argument. I will use some of your points, if you don’t mind. BTW I’m a sucker for women who speak Latin! Rem acu tangere. Lumen soli mutuum das!
‘The president, in a series of TV interviews during his trip to Asia, said those offended by the legal rights accorded Mohammed by virtue of his facing a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won’t find it “offensive at all when he’s convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him.”‘–AP
Typical AP distortion. No, that isn’t what he said, he said what I said he said.
He didn’t say that ‘…those offended by the legal rights accorded Mohammed by virtue of his facing a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won’t find it “offensive…’
He said that he, Barack Obama, wouldn’t think it offensive.
“OBAMA: I don’t think it will be offensive at all when he’s convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him.”
Transcript of the interview…
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/11/18/2130523.aspx
# 50 covered it perfectly. I really think the B.O. administration is more dangerous to the U.S. than any other we have had. They have wiped their bottoms with constitution and insure the rights of terrorists while trying to break the backs of our citizens. The good thing is that maybe in 2010 and 2012 the people will revolt and kick them out of office back to rocks they slithered out from under. We must not forget Buba Clinton who gave all our jobs away with bill and the help of Newt.
Who on earth does Eric Holder actually think he is, calling the American people fearful and ignorant?
This is so far from ordinary behavior that it actually dwarfs the decision itself. The Justice Department is an agency in the hands of a radical. Look at his record in the 1990′s. Look at his contempt for the American people. He is supposed to be our prosecutor.
Not the other side’s defense attorney.
#89 Commuter MOHO has at least got one aspect of Islam down pat his vile Jew hating anti semitism and it is expressed by him frequently. Maybe he is as you say just a juvenile wind up merchant but then it takes an illogical juvenile mind to swallow the evil contradictory Koran that is the keystone of Islam so who knows.
“There is another problem, however, which may trump these. I refer to the right to a speedy trial…”
LOL. Foreign nationals in time of war have as much right to a speedy and public trial as they have a right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizures.
Guess what?
In WWII we didn’t issue arrest warrants before we seized German soldiers (or spies, or whatever)…we just snagged the bastards, and all their stuff too. As a matter of fact, sometimes we just said the hell with seizing them and blew their damned brains out. No warrants or grand jury indictments or anything else required.
Sorry, the Constitution doesn’t apply to our enemies during wartime (or after wartime, come to that, judging by the post-war trials of the Germans and Japanese leadership).
Somebody alert the half-wits at the N.Y. Times, because apparently they haven’t figured this out yet. And cc the Obama administration; they seem to have some trouble grasping this as well.
Any half decent defense Lawyer should be ablle to get KSM off with no problem at all considering the monumentally STUPID mistakes O-BOW-ma and Holder have already made. They have ADMITTED that his confession was obtained by what is NOW (it was not then) waterboarding torture and they have also PRE JUDGED the outcome . BOTH O-BOW-ma and Holder are oon record as saying he is GUILTY and will get the death penalty. So HOW can he ever have a fair trial his Lawyer will no doubt argue and he will have ALL the evidence he needs to obtain a miss trial verdict that has been given to him on a plate by the on record statements of the MORONS O-BOW-ma and Holder.
Dave, the problem is that federal criminal courts do protect the right to speedy trial. For that matter, so do courts martial now. As stated in Section 938 of the MCA, cited in the article at page 2, the right to speedy trial is specifically not provided in trial by military commission.
88. Pragmatist:
“# 86 Please enlighten us VIVO why would a MUSLIM want to kill the Sheik(.) after all they were dancing in the streets in ALL Mohammedan countries as they watched the Twin Towers fall.”
So he can get his 72 virgins . . . ?
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed will be tried by a jury of his “peers.” Would you like to sit on that jury knowing that you might lose you head if the jury votes to convict? KSM is not entitled to a trial and nothing good can come of it. If he is not convicted, he will still be held. If he is convicted and executed, others will not be granted a criminal trial for one reason or another and our enemies will make a big deal of this injustice. Madness!
69. Anonymous:
Don Rodrigo:
Of course you’ve “fought off muggers several times in my life,” you dopey fabulist. And I have fought off vampire unicorns with my bare hands. What a conceited lying twit you are, fabricating courageous tales just to try to make a pathetic point.
Your response outs you as a sheltered, phobic cul-de-saced coward. Of course I’ve fought off muggers–I don’t anyone who hasn’t. Male, female, gay friends. Everyone I know has had at least one or two encounters where they faced off a mugger and walked away with their cash. And when they haven’t, they’ve given it away with dignity. I assume, from your response that such a situation is as plausible to you as meeting a vampire, that you would piss your sheltered little pants in such a situation.
I’m sorry? Who are you? “Anonymous?” I was talking to moho. Also, I’m not the pathological braggart here with the inflated ego who had to boast to everyone how brave he is in between bouts of trolling insults.
If the Gitmo detainees are tried in Federal court or for that matter any civilian court it will be a no win situation.
If we succeed in getting a conviction the show trial and the compromises to our nations security will be too steep of a price to pay. Even the liberals rabid desire to damage the Bush/Cheney/CIA reputation will disspoint them.
If we don’t get a conviction we will need to release them or we will damage our own legal system.
The solution to closing Gitmo is to not close Gitmo. But if we have to then there is one secure place where we are already keeping terrorists that have already caused more danage to the US and our securuty than any other terrorist in the history of the United States. We can put all of our bad eggs in one place:
The White House
“Dave, the problem is that federal criminal courts do protect the right to speedy trial.”
Yes, I’m aware of that, Dan. I’ve read the Bill of Rights.
I’m also aware that the Bill of Rights doesn’t apply to foreign nationals in time of war.
If it did we couldn’t capture enemy soldiers or enemy equipment unless we had first secured warrants based on probable cause listing the people to be captured or the equipment to be seized (with probable cause being backed up by an oath or affirmation).
Enemy soldiers, terrorists, whatever don’t have any rights under the Constitution…including the right to a speedy trial.
They don’t have a right to peaceably assemble to petition the government for a redress of grievances, they don’t have the right to keep and bear arms, they don’t have the right to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures…they don’t even have the right to breathe (if they did…then our soldiers couldn’t kill them without due process).
If they had any of those rights…then we couldn’t possibly fight a war.
The idea that captured soldiers, guerrilla, terrorists, etc. have any rights guaranteed under the Constitution is patently absurd.
The treatment of enemy nationals in wartime is covered by the laws and customs of war, such as the Geneva Conventions, and in the case of Al Qaida or Taliban guerrillas…they have essentially no rights at all. They never signed on to the Conventions, and they don’t follow the Conventions themselves…which pretty much makes them dead meat rightswise.
Just a little off topic; I asked my wife if she would buy a used car from someone like Holder? She laughed out loud.
This just in from the “for what it’s worth department.” On January 11,
Lawyers for Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani, a Tanzanian accused of helping to plot bloody 1998 attacks on US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, argue that his constitutional rights have been violated because he was denied a speedy trial. . . . His case is a test of President Barack Obama’s decision to close Guantanamo and end years of shadowy legal procedures against terrorism suspects. . . . New York is due to host the trial of five men accused of plotting the September 11, 2001 attacks against the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon outside Washington.
It did not require a fortune teller to predict this. The civilian trial of KSM will present similar problems.