Holocaust Denial From U.S. Professors: Academic Freedom?
What are the limits to academic discourse? Are lies and calumnies from academics protected speech outside the classroom, as well as inside? Does “protected” mean immune from criticism or from direct consequences? Are there distinctions between statements made within one’s “field of expertise” and those made outside? When do such distinctions become hairsplitting rationalizations or mere defensiveness, as opposed to valuable exercises in reasoning and in defense of a noble enterprise?
Consider the case of Kaukab Siddique, professor of literature and communications at Lincoln University near Philadelphia. In a now widely broadcast video he stated to an approving crowd protesting near the White House:
For the Jews, I would say, see what could happen to you if the Muslims wake up. And I say to the Muslims, dear brothers and sisters, unite and rise up against this hydra-headed monster which calls itself Zionism. … It is obvious to us that Zionism is racism. … It is obvious to us that Zionism is genocide. It is obvious to us that Zionism is terrorism. But somehow the man living in the White House does not seem to know that. His silence is grim and dismal.
This is hardly new. What makes Siddique different are a series of discovered emails in which Siddique called the Holocaust a “hoax” and “invented,” and states that Jews have “taken over America” by “devious and immoral means.” Pennsylvania lawmakers registered their protest, and Lincoln University itself called Siddique’s views “offensive.” In an interview with InsideHighered.com Siddique was questioned about his statements. He fell back on academic freedom, saying:
I’m not an expert on the Holocaust. If I deny or support it, it doesn’t mean anything.
He added with respect to Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the firebombing of Dresden:
We can’t just sit back in judgment and say those guys were bad and we were the good guys. … I always try to look at both sides. … That’s part of being a professor.
The moral certainty that drives his criticism of Israel and Jews deserted him at a critical, if predictable, juncture.
More interesting than Siddique’s remarks were reactions from other academics. In the Chronicle of Higher Education, Cary Nelson — professor of English at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and president of the American Association of University Professors — suggests:
Siddique is walking a finer line. He is broaching Holocaust denial off-campus, while teaching in a discipline in which the Holocaust has definite relevance. His university has appropriately said he cannot be fired simply for his extramural statements. He could even repeat those statements in a public forum on campus and be protected. It is less clear, however, that he could declare the Holocaust a fiction in class. A key question is whether, in a field like Siddique’s, Holocaust denial merits a hearing before a committee of his peers. Is his professional fitness at issue?
For Nelson, if Siddique were an engineer, like the infamous Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, this would not be an issue.
Nelson phrases the matter as a question. Perhaps he is as repulsed as the rest of us. Indeed, he calls Siddique, rather delicately, a “deluded ideologue.” His problem is that he wishes to defend his profession and its workplace habits, including self-policing and privileged place above criticism in the face of something indefensible.
Nelson considers extramural Holocaust denial by a faculty member serious enough that it “may at least merit a university warning that he has put himself at risk.” Bravely he states: “The controversy over Siddique’s extracurricular remarks reminds us there is a bright line that must not be crossed.” On the other hand, the “Working Definition of Anti-Semitism,” issued by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights, goes too far. Among other things, that document deems calling Israel a “Nazi state” is anti-Semitic, but Nelson dutifully defended sociologist William I. Robinson of the University of California, Santa Barbara, when he did so. Individuals demanding Israel be boycotted must also be defended, although Nelson adds that his organization opposes any such boycott.
But Nelson has his limits:
Faculty members cannot stand before a class and announce that the Nazis did not kill six million Jews, along with numerous homosexuals, Gypsies, disabled citizens, and political opponents. I would not knowingly hire a Holocaust denier or grant one tenure in a discipline to which the Holocaust is relevant. A college does not benefit from institutionalizing ignorance and hatred. … [Holocaust denial raises the question of a faculty member’s] overall professional competence — the capacity to weigh evidence, to undertake rational analysis, to perform academic responsibilities reliably.
Only toward the end of Nelson’s discussion does he state forthrightly:
[Holocaust denial is] also effectively hate speech, whatever the intent of the speaker. It denies people their history and obliterates the fate of their relatives on the basis of their religion and ethnicity.
There is no vaccine that will cure the most ancient hatred in the world, the hatred of the Jewish People. Especially now, that higher education and much of the American intellegentsia seems to have become synonomous with anti Semitism.
This is because practically the entire Liberal Left, including President Barack Hussein Obama, has totally embraced the cause of eliminating Israel, not because of Israeli policies or behavior, but because Israel is Jewish. It has become almost de rigeur for American professors to viciously criticize Israel for any problem America faces abroad, (when of course the same professors are not criticizing America for being a fascist imperialist oppressor) and to stifle any opposing responses. Jewish students now walk in fear for their safety and even their lives on many Liberal Left American college campuses.
Do you know that Hitler and the Nazi Party so successfully brainwashed two generations of Germans into hating Jews that after only 6 years by 1939, practically the entire German people, especially including the intelligentsia, was happily and actively participating in the genocide of 6 million Jews?
Who would have believed that only 65 years later calls for the genocide of the Jewish People would once again be heard, but this time on American college and university campuses?
“Who would have believed that only 65 years later calls for the genocide of the Jewish People would once again be heard, but this time on American college and university campuses?”
What’s so surprising about it? Self-styled intellectual elites have always loved thugs and bullies, and thugs and bullies always target the Jews.
“Do you know that Hitler and the Nazi Party so successfully brainwashed two generations of Germans into hating Jews that after only 6 years by 1939, practically the entire German people, especially including the intelligentsia was happily and actively participating in the genocide of 6 Million Jews?” How do you define intelligentsia in times of war and terror?
However I can give you some information: Jews in Germany: In 1925, there lived 563.733 Jews in Germany, in May 1939: 233.973 people(many Jews emigrated during the 1930s). In October 1941, 163.692 Jewish people lived in Germany(source: Das Bundesarchiv, Gedenkbuch 2006). Most Jews lived in Poland and in the former Soviet Union. It is difficult to estimate how many Germans supported Hitler. My father was not allowed to study because he refused to become a member of the Hitler Youth. Many young people joined Hitler Youth in order to be allowed to study. One of my father’s brothers was a pupil in a Catholic institution. However, when the war started and later on, all our relatives had to go to war. All of them(except my father and one brother of my mother) died in Russia. Till approx. 1970, one did differ between German soldiers of the Wehrmacht and Nazis.See Hannah Arendt: Die verborgene Tradition, especially the essay “Die organisierte Schuld(the organised guilt). Nowadays all Germans are Nazis. That’s very convenient for the real Nazis but bad for the rest. By the way, after the war many Nazis had been fierce US supporters. I know a lot about the time from 1927 till 1957. My grand-mother and my parents told me. The rest I experienced myself.
“(when of course the same professors are not criticizing America for being a fascist imperialist oppressor) and to stifle any opposing responses.”
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A large number of the liberal elite professors most certainly do criticize the US for imperialism, and of being both Zionist and WASP controlled. What you won’t hear is any negative comment about any OTHER Middle Eastern country and how oppressive the ruling regimes are: Iran, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, The Hamas-controlled Palestinian Authority, Hizbollah/Lebanon…, or Far Eastern: China, Burma….
This is because practically the entire Liberal Left, including President Barack Hussein Obama, has totally embraced the cause of eliminating Israel, not because of Israeli policies or behavior, but because Israel is Jewish.
For pete’s sake. Do you have any evidence of this? What has the obama whitehouse done that supports a claim like that? Or do you have some sort of secret knowledge that only you can see? Care to share it with us?
Dear Matthew, You my friend are a twit.
If Obama had done ,what he has done and said to Israel,to any othr nation,you would be at war.
He told Israel to stop all building.Would you stop building in America if an Israeli President told you to ?????
Obama has visited Israel’s enemies and had legitimised them in the world.Even terror groups like HAMAS.
Please look at the facts and don’t lead with your jaw.
captaingrumpy
“Dear Matthew, You my friend are a twit.”
You know, being obnoxious doesn’t actually make you right.
“If Obama had done ,what he has done and said to Israel,to any othr nation,you would be at war.”
Get a grip. Try reading the papers a bit more. The US criticises countries far worse than it does israel. If israel really is so petulant that the US telling it not to steal other people’s stuff means that it has to go nuclear, then go right ahead. This will be over quickly.
“He told Israel to stop all building.Would you stop building in America if an Israeli President told you to ?????”
Firstly, no. Secondly I’m not in america. Thirdly, I wouldn’t regard it as “totally embraced the cause of eliminating Australia” or, to use your words, a cause to “be at war”.
“Obama has visited Israel’s enemies and had legitimised them in the world.”
I hate to break it to you, but some of israel’s enemies ARE legitimate. Likewise, some of america’s enemies are legitimate. Just ignoring them doesn’t change that.
“Even terror groups like HAMAS.”
He’s visited Hamas? Really?
“Please look at the facts and don’t lead with your jaw.”
I’m sorry, but that’s the funniest things I’ve read today. Have you got any more? Your own concern for facts, evidence, reasoning (pick one) leave much to be desired.
I asked for evidence that obama wants to wipe out israel. You offerend absurdties. More effort required.
Believe it or not this bozos biggest critics in the state legislature appear to be liberal Dems
Despite being a Jew, I am very far from being any kind of Left, so don’t even try to accuse me of that.
Nevertheless, I dare emphasize one thing that makes your post very much dubious with regard to its…hmmmm, how to say, merits, maybe?
The following citation from your post is what makes me very suspicious of your decency:
“the same professors are not criticizing America for being a fascist imperialist oppressor.”
Unless you honestly confirm that this passage was not your thought but rather a very badly chosen wording, there is nothing much to talk with you about.
And a couple of things more.
Yes, Holocaust did happen.
But the number of its victims is not 6 Million as what Jews constantly cite. The actual number of Jews perished in Holocaust is 5,962,129 (see http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-statistics.htm. Some Jewish sources show even slightly less: http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/General/VictimsEngl.html.)
But the actual TOTAL number of Holocaust victims is TWELVE (sic! 12) MILLION.
One of my Jewish relative who lived in Israel over 25 years, explained to me that Jews generally don’t like mentioning other Holocaust victims.
Do you know why?
And the second thing I want to mention even though I foresee your and many others’ reaction:
Jews very often call Germans “Nazis,” all Germans, with no distinction.
Even some Marianne in this forum did it: “Nowadays all Germans are Nazis.”
If we take the same position, then we have to call all Jews of Russia’s 1910s ‘Bolsheviks’ and all Russian Bolsheviks ‘Jews’ because of the huge number of Jews who played LEADING role in the most inhuman, the bloodiest destruction of the State of Russia and DOZENS OF MILLIONS of its citizens. Many more Millions than Hitler murdered in Holocaust.
To conclude:
The so-called “professor” Siddique is clearly a standard Jews-hater, no question about that.
But in disputes with such Jew-haters, Jews and all other decent people should rely more on indisputable facts rather than on pure emotional hysterics posing as if Jews are “untouchable holies.”
Somebody here asked: “Whatever happened to the truth in academic discourse?”
I have an answer:
Since the Communist ideology has been injected into the collective American brain and then deeply rooted in the entire society, the “truth” turned into a gumboil that is always characterized by a one-sided fullness(it’s a paraphrase of a Koz’ma Prutkov’s phrase, don’t accuse me of plagiarism. -:))
Consequently, it led to the flood of Leftism (particularly since the so-called Coffee-Houses of Beatniks in late 1950s.)
Consequently, in its turn, it led to the both open and hidden fight against the so-called “American Imperialism.”
Consequently, the Lefties embraced everything and everybody who could (or seem to them to be able to) help them in their fierce fight. Thus, rabid Muslims became their best allies (exactly as illegals who are mostly imbued with Latin American Socialism ideology.)
Hence, no matter how outrageous may sound just another routine pronouncement made by a rabid Muslim, it is always consistently accepted by Lefties (I call them “liberasts”.)
Just recall the Ground-Zero Mosque case.
Or dead silence regarding the terrorist Major Hasan from Fort Hood.
Et cetera et cetera.
—————————–
But on the other side, the truth should be restored and defended by the very Jews who are constantly condemned by Muslims.
The truth of their genetic Leftism that caused and still causes so many problems.
And that truth is very hard to acknowledge and to repent of.
I’m so glad that you brought up the Jewish Bolsheviks and their contribution to the slaughter of millions of “Russians” er Ukrainians. If you look at the history of the region, you would see a constant flow of anti-Semitism from there including the infamous slaughter of the regions Jews by Chemelsky and the continuous pogroms waged there. That doesn’t even include Czar Nicholas’s edicts either of the forced expulsion of the regions Jews and the issuing pogroms. It can be seen again during WWII when the Germans had to stop the Ukrainians from slaughtering so many Jews in order to maintain their slave labor. I’m not even mentioning the the 90 divisions of Ukrainians that joined the Wehrmach or the Don River Cossacks who also joined the Wehrmach. Let me make another point the “Jewish” Bolsheviks killed plenty of their own Jews along with anyone who disagreed with them.
I assume that when you say “Chemelsky” you are talking about Bohdan Khmelnitski. Yes, his rebels have killed around 20,000 Jews.
It happened during the period from 1648 to 1656.
I am pretty much sure you won’t discuss what caused that rebellion. But in any case, it does not excuse slaughtering people.
As in any rebellion, many innocent people were killed by blind masses.
But if you bring up that 400-year old rebellion with its 20,000 Jewish victims as an excuse for a mass murder of DOZENS OF MILLIONS people (or even simply an explanation thereof) whose only “guilt” was their aversion of the Bolsheviks regime or even simply “belonging to a wrong class,” then I can’t help but doubt about your… hmmmm, how to say softly… moral values.
While it’s true that a significant number of Jews were killed in anti-Jewish “pogroms” (from the first anti-Jewish riot in Odessa, modern Ukraine, in 1821, after the death of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Constantinople, when 14 Jews were killed, to the pogroms in 1903-1906, with approximately 2,500 Jews killed,) it’s also true that the number of those “casualties” is absolutely not comparable with the number of “casualties” of Bolshevism.
“Eye for eye,” Torah says (Exodus 21:24.)
Well, in our case, it’s approximately 1,700 eyes for just 1 (one) eye.
“tooth for tooth”… 1,700 teeth for 1 (one) tooth.
“hand for hand”… 1,700 hands for 1 (one) hand.
“foot for foot”… 1,700 feet for 1 (one) foot.
Was it a fair “trade”? Not too many?
With regard to your ““Jewish” Bolsheviks killed plenty of their own Jews,” I’d say that, unlike Nazis,
a) Sozis didn’t start their atrocities from Jews;
b) not so many Jews were murdered by Bolsheviks in general.
The clear State-based Antisemitism was about to be unleashed only in 1952-1953, shortly before Stalin died (the “Doctors case”.)
By the way, Hitler also killed some Nazis (Ernst Röhm, for instance) and later Gestapo also annihilated some members of their own party.
And the last: you consistently wrote “Wehrmach.”
I am not sure why you decided to do “circumcision” to the German language: it should be “Wehrmacht.”
And also by the way, there were 2 (two) Czars Nikolas, Nicolas I and Nicolas II.
So, when you are talking about history, you better make sure that your interlocutors will perceive you properly.
Leave it to a Uke to deny the murder of Jews. It wasn’t 20,000 you Jew hating Nazi sympathizing rectal orifice, it was more like 250,000. It’s known in Jewish history as the Tach v’ Tat massacres. The lowest figure cited by historians is 100,000, the highest, 300,000. This was a time when the world Jewish population was only about 1.5 million.
It’s not a coincidence that Ukrainians like you volunteered to work in the German’s slave labor and death camps. You learned to hate Jews from the time you were sucking the teat of the sow that bore you.
BTW, your sister says that the Jewish guy she’s getting banged by is better in bed than you are.
Of all the nations that collaborated with the Nazis, it was the Ukerainians who most eagerly volunteered to kill Jews. Ukrainians are probably the most Jew-hating people on the planet this side of Hamas and Hezb’allah.
Ben zonah, yimach shimcha.
To Andy Gump:
I assume that when you say “Chemelsky” you are talking about Bohdan Khmelnitski. Yes, his rebels have killed around 20,000 Jews.
It happened during the period from 1648 to 1656.
I am pretty much sure you won’t discuss what caused that rebellion. But in any case, it does not excuse slaughtering people.
As in any rebellion, many innocent people were killed by blind masses.
But if you bring up that 400-year old rebellion with its 20,000 Jewish victims as an excuse for a mass murder of DOZENS OF MILLIONS people (or even simply an explanation thereof) whose only “guilt” was their aversion of the Bolsheviks regime or even simply “belonging to a wrong class,” then I can’t help but doubt about your… hmmmm, how to say softly… moral values.
While it’s true that a significant number of Jews were killed in anti-Jewish “pogroms” (from the first anti-Jewish riot in Odessa, modern Ukraine, in 1821, after the death of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Constantinople, when 14 Jews were killed, to the pogroms in 1903-1906, with approximately 2,500 Jews killed,) it’s also true that the number of those “casualties” is absolutely not comparable with the number of “casualties” of Bolshevism.
“Eye for eye,” Torah says (Exodus 21:24.)
Well, in our case, it’s approximately 1,700 eyes for just 1 (one) eye.
“tooth for tooth”… 1,700 teeth for 1 (one) tooth.
“hand for hand”… 1,700 hands for 1 (one) hand.
“foot for foot”… 1,700 feet for 1 (one) foot.
Was it a fair “trade”? Not too many?
With regard to your ““Jewish” Bolsheviks killed plenty of their own Jews,” I’d say that, unlike Nazis,
a) Sozis didn’t start their atrocities from Jews;
b) not so many Jews were murdered by Bolsheviks in general.
The clear State-based Antisemitism was about to be unleashed only in 1952-1953, shortly before Stalin died (the “Doctors case”.)
By the way, Hitler also killed some Nazis (Ernst Röhm, for instance) and later Gestapo also annihilated some members of their own party.
And the last: you consistently wrote “Wehrmach.”
I am not sure why you decided to do “circumcision” to the German language: it should be “Wehrmacht.”
And also by the way, there were 2 (two) Czars Nikolas, Nicolas I and Nicolas II.
So, when you are talking about history, you better make sure that your interlocutors will perceive you properly.
Gee Constantine, you must be really upset to have to post your thing twice. I know why Chemelsky revolted against the Poles. I also know that the Poles used the Jews as their tax collectors. That doesn’t pardon the Cossacks or the Poles or the Ukrainians. Coming from that part of the world I know only too well the constant state of fear that Jews were subjected to, the beatings, the murders, the rapes. The Jewish Bolsheviks are a misnomer that’s why I use “Jewish” Bolsheviks. They rejected God, the Torah, and their Judaism. Yes they became butchers and carried out Stalin’s whims without a thought to human life. The question is …. is a man who rejects his own religion still regarded as a member of that group. Its only done with Jews. A convert from Islam to Christianity is called a Christian. A convert from Judaism to Christianity is still regarded a Jew as by Hilter’s standards. However, the rational person regards a convert from Judaism to Christianity a Christian. A convert from Judaism to Communism therefore should be called a Communist or Bolshevik. Using the term Jewish Bolshevik screams anti-Semitism.
Now I want to get back the subject of pogroms. There were far more pogroms than you have stated. I don’t know where you get your figures. Czar Nicholas II had over two hundred sanctioned pogroms. Let me emphasize sanctioned. With that treatment, it is easy to understand why so many Jews became Bolsheviks.
All they ever wanted was equality which they never had. Those same Bolsheviks would send a Jew to Gulag as fast as anyone else. Religion meant nothing. If you wanted to practice Judaism, you had to do it secretly or you were punished.
Anti-Semitism existed before the Stalin purge. It existed before the Bolsheviks and it existed before Czar Nicholas II. It was always part of the Polish culture and was quickly adopted by the Cossacks. It didn’t die at the end of the Cossack rebellion, it was always an underlying current in that part of the world. It only needed an excuse to explode. Any idiot could start a pogrom just by saying, “Jerusalem has fallen.” Once spoken these words signaled a Crusade, only the Crusade was directed against the Jews.
As for my moral values, I don’t give a damn what you surmise of them. I am content with myself and society, my community is content with me. Judge yourself in why you have to refer to the Bolsheviks as Jewish Bolsheviks. Also I question that you are really a Jew. I don’t know of any Jews named Constantine if that is your real name. If you were a Jew, you’d truly understand the implications of what you say. On the other hand the Soros type, or the Finkelstein type, or the Chomsky type would have no problem using such a term.
Have a good day.
From a contemporary account of the Chmielnitzki massacres:
“Some of them [the Jews] had their skins flayed off them and their flesh was flung to the dogs. The hands and feet of others were cut off and they [the Jews] were flung onto the roadway where carts ran over them and they were trodden underfoot by horse… And many were buried alive. Children were slaughtered in their mothers’ bosoms and many children were torn apart like fish. The ripped up the bellies of pregnant women, too out the unborn children and flung them in their faces. They tore open the bellies of some of them and placed a living cat within the belly and left them alive thus, first cutting off their hands so that they should not be able to take the living cat out of the belly… and there was never an unnatural death in the world that they did not inflict upon them.”
Many Jews who were not murdered during the [Chmielnitzki] massacres were sold as slaves, usually to Constantinople’s slave markets. For many years, Jewish communities throughout Europe raised money to redeem these slaves and free them.
-from Jewish Literacy by Joseph Telushkin.
Whatever happened to the truth in academic discourse? Are there not certain basic truths in academia that all sane teachers can agree on? If I were a science teacher in a university and taught my students that the world was flat and that all these “round earth” people were liars, I think I would be fired rather quickly, right? But get a teacher to deny that the Holocaust ever happened, or that there is nothing wrong with anti-semitism, or that the majority of Muslim states sponsor terrorism in one form or another, and that teacher is rewarded with tenure. And universities today wonder why enrollments are falling and people in general think that they are nothing more than training schools for the next generation of socialists and communists.
I think the name says it all, Kaukab Siddique, another moonbat Muslim spreading lies and deception. Next he’ll be trying to convert his students to the religion of peace.
I neglected to mention the bias of a primarily black college soaking up the anti-Jew and anti-white rhetoric, pro-damnation of America, and all the while they are waiting for Obama to start handing out the largess of redistribution. They are all still waiting for that free tank of gas.
Pisses them off that we white folks and Jews are holding it up.
We neglect to stress that Lincoln is primarily a black college in PA, thus it is a breeding ground for this kind of anti-white, anti-jewish thought. I imagine the average young black student sitting there soaking in this vomit and cheering the idea of sticking it to the white guy.
a series of discovered emails in which Siddique called the Holocaust a “hoax” and “invented,” and states that Jews have “taken over America” by “devious and immoral means.”
a series of discovered emails in which Siddique called the Holocaust a “hoax” and “invented,” and states that Jews have “taken over America” by “devious and immoral means.”
Freakin’ return key. I have no idea what happened there.
Mr author – can you please supply us with some references for those quotes? Who’s got the emails? Can we see them? I’d like to read them for myself, please.
Thanks.
Well, here is the link to the infamous video: http://www.youtube.com/user/DCalQudsDay#p/u/3/o3_5VohZ1Yw. Matthew, I think you are not as wisely shrewd as you’d like to believe. Skeptict by default.
Note 1:20 of the vid. Do you believe Israel is a legitimate entity, Matthew? Such is the criteria for a Zionist apparently.
It is highly doubtful that Alex Joffe, and others are just making stuff up to defame the “innocent”, which is what you are implying, since your skepticism is not really justified. You can dig your heals into a technicality all you like, but a thing called common-sense prevails in life.
I just asked to see the original text of the emails, rather than making do with single-word quotes.
You can read what you like into that (and you probably will), but I would have thought it’d be easier to just provide a link to a source.
I never got the idea of denying the slaughter of millions of Jews (and other people). It’s so retarded.
I’ve walked the grounds of several camps and it’s hard to imagine that nothing happened there. Seeing the pile off childrens’ shoes at Yad Vashem was one of the most earthshaking experiences of my life.
Do Jewish-Americans have a disproportional influence in the United States? Yes, they do; because they have worked so hard and succeeded. That pisses you off? Too bad.
I’ve also experienced that expressing one’s views on Israel (or the Jews) has the consequence of being labeled an anti-Semite.
שטויות
The very definition of vile. Holocaust Denial and Muzzie Projection.
I have repeatedly said that Islam is not a religion, it is a political ideology, and indeed Siddique’s pronouncement confirms that. He is not arguing about the merits of Islam vs. Judaism. Indeed, he is not arguing at all. Rather, he is threatening Jews with annihilation because he perceives them as somehow controlling America. His threats and perceptions have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with political ideology.
I am no fan of hate-speech laws. I do think, though, that inciting others to annihilate a people because of a political ideology merits an investigation by federal authorities.
Let siddique lie and spew hatred all he wants. Any institution of higher learning is worthless if it enables sociopaths such as siddique to indoctrinate and propagandize students. Would Lincoln permit a faculty member to teach that the world is flat? Probably not. The denial of historical and well documented fact is an abuse of the First Amendment that is almost as outrageous as yelling “fire” in a crowded theatre. Hopefully, there is at least one facualty member at Lincoln who is informing students that the founder of islam was a pedophile, serial adulterer, a mysoginist, and a genocidal sociopath.
To quote Mark Steyn – “The oldest hatred didnt get that way without the ability to adapt.” A truly vile anti-semitism is becoming increasingly respectable in academic circles. Even the most pernicious Holocaust denial is often viewed as merely an “alternate reality” by a cowardly professorate marinated in cheap moral relativism. Professor Siddique is simply a very visible example of the ethical and intellectual rot that infects many of our academic institutions.
The problem of Holocaust denial and other imprecations against “the Jews” is a subset of a much greater problem: the dissemination of cultural relativism and the notion that there is only a multiplicity of explanations, with no objective rule to measure one truth claim against another. I write about this all over my website, but most recently here: http://clarespark.com/2010/11/21/through-a-glass-darkly/. It is relatively easy to nail the Holocaust deniers and antisemites. It is much harder to remove those who preach identity politics as the road to civility and intergroup understanding. There are only individuals with “identity.” Try launching that fact at your next social gathering.
Bingo, we have a winner. A correct worldview does matter. The father of lies and his worldview of relativism (did God really say…) has taken ahold of our “prestigious” universities.
Fatez:
The father of lies, mockers and scoffers, the willingly ingorant, worshipping the creation rather than the Creator; they all pretty much describe the professors who “teach” at our secular universities.
It all goes straight back to worldview, doesn’t it?
God bless our Jewish Friends! And God bless and protect Israel.
“The British, the Americans, and the French created Israel as a Jewish Bantustan and stuck it there in the heart of Palestine and the Arab world to control and dominate that region of the world.”
Really? Such a small piece of real estate controls the whole Arab world?
Wouldn’t it have made more sense to control Mecca, or at least all the oil fields?
I wonder how Nelson would feel if, instead of Jews, a professor talked about how great slavery was in the US, and that maybe we should re-enslave blacks. As part of the professor’s extracirricular activities, of course.
The nitwit in Colorado spewing hate in his classroom and beyond, so is this guy. Any rational parent who is paying student fees to this college should make sure that guy gets GONE. He can have his opinion on his own dime. Funny how the liberals hate successful businessmen, no matter if they are Jewish or not, but they sure apply for grants, don’t they? When will the contributors to Universities everywhere start putting their money toward having their children educated, not indoctrinated?
Is (Siddique’s) professional fitness at issue?
The fact that Nelson has to ask is almost as depressing as Siddique himself.
Saying holocaust denial is “hate speech” now qualifies as cogent academic commentary ?
CAIR, ISNA, Muslim students assn. et al. are working daily and diligently to insert Islam and Shari’a (not to mention hatred of “the Jew”) into modern American life.
They welcome pussyfooting professors (Cary Nelson?) and sympathetic idiotlogues (Francis Boyle?) to the agenda.
…academia is in fact unwilling to draw meaningful “bright lines” regarding knowledge or propriety.
I sure wouldn’t pay for my son or daughter to receive the wisdom of such wimpy and dissembling academics.
It is not a matter of freedom of speech when the speech is a lie. What you do is punch the fellow in the mouth every time he tells such a big ‘un. He is free to lie and we are free to kick his butt. Simple solution to a simple problem. We have been brainwashed by attorneys and government so they can get away with their BS. It doesn’t have to be that way.
^^ here here
what we need is freedom from morons
Does that apply to all lies? If somebody says a like that I don’t like, can I punch them? Or is that something that only you are allowed to decide?
This idiot is just following his master’s teachings. See below from “Islam 101″ at Jihadwatch.org.
Then there is this passage revealed just after the Muslims reached Medina and were still vulnerable:
2:256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut {idolatry} and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
In contrast, take 9:5, commonly referred to as the “Verse of the Sword”, revealed toward the end of Muhammad’s life:
9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Having been revealed later in Muhammad?s life than 50:45, 109, and 2:256, the Verse of the Sword abrogates their peaceful injunctions in accordance with 2:106. Sura 8, revealed shortly before Sura 9, reveals a similar theme:
8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.
8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.
9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:33. It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).
The Quran’s commandments to Muslims to wage war in the name of Allah against non-Muslims are unmistakable. They are, furthermore, absolutely authoritative as they were revealed late in the Prophet’s career and so cancel and replace earlier instructions to act peaceably. Without knowledge of the principle of abrogation, Westerners will continue to misread the Quran and misdiagnose Islam as a “religion of peace.”
“Kaukab Siddique” is that the lamb kebobs with yogurt sauce?
Lincoln University –near Philadelphia? Heard of the one in Missouri, never heard of that one. Is it accredited?
Seriously, you don’t have to look far to find cranks. When you come across one, just point and laugh, do not pay them tuition.
Kaukab Siddique, are as stupid as anyone can get. If he doesn’t likes the Jews, GO BACK to your homeland and through up your hate there.
We don’t need idiots as him in the US.
He is the type that would like the world run by the Muslims and their laws. Throw him out.
Best regards
Capt. BJ
There is antisemitism
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/nov/25/spectator-apology-muslim-antisemitism
“The Spectator and contributor Melanie Phillips today published an online apology to a prominent British Muslim they falsely accused of antisemitism.
“Sawalha, president of the British Muslim Initiative, took legal action over a blog post by Phillips published in July 2008 in which she accused him of calling British Jews “evil/noxious”.
And then there is antisemitism:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/11/antisemitism_still_thrives.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20scienceblogs/pharyngula%20%28Pharyngula%29
“[Holocaust denial is] also effectively hate speech,”
Hate speech cannot be the standard. Criticism of the state is hate speech; criticism of the officials of the state is hate speech; criticism of homosexuality is hate speech, feminist speech is hate speech, anti-Catholic speech is hate speech; etc.
I want the speech I think is hate speech repressed first.
“For the Jews, I would say, see what could happen to you if the Muslims wake up. And I say to the Muslims, dear brothers and sisters, unite and rise up against this hydra-headed monster which calls itself Zionism. … It is obvious to us that Zionism is racism. … It is obvious to us that Zionism is genocide. It is obvious to us that Zionism is terrorism. But somehow the man living in the White House does not seem to know that. His silence is grim and dismal.”
Just a few changes would make this an accurate, historically correct statement.
For the Muslims, I would say, see what could happen to you if the Jews and the west wake up. And I say to the Jews and the west, dear brothers and sisters, unite and rise up against this hydra-headed monster which calls itself Islamism. … It is obvious to us that Islamism is racism.… It is obvious to us that Islamism is genocide, It is obvious to us that Islamism is misogynism. It is obvious to us that Islamism is homophobic, it is obvious to us that Islamism is terrorism. But somehow the man living in the White House does not seem to know that. His silence is grim and dismal.
It should long ago have become obvious that any statements such as that from Kaukab Siddique are a part of the ongoing but largely overlooked Islamic Jihad which is dedicated, among other things, to the annihilation of the Jews. That doesn’t make these pronouncements any less disturbing but puts the shoe that fits where it correctly belongs.
These are the same people that believes profiling is wrong. They are profiling the Jewish people with their every breath and their every action. Their teaching credentials should be revoked. They have a right to their opinions and beliefs, but they do not have a right to teach that as gospel to young minds and then grade them in this garbage They should not be allowed to teach when their minds are that closed.
Yep, I’ve noticed the Jews have taken over America too.
So much so, that I saw the other day that the Jews even lead the Muslims 10-1 in the much sought after “Hate Crime” victim. Will these Jews stop at nothing to win everything?
/sarc off
And the useful idiots question why we “dumb” Okies took the preemptive step of disallowing sharia in the courts with 70% of the vote?
agreed 100%. This guy is nothing more than a jihadist in sheep’s clothing. Is he on a “No Fly” list” some where? I wouldn’t want to fly on the same airplane as him.
He probably eats three cans of beans before he goes up.
Really, ‘bright lines” and ‘overall professional competence’ is the best we can expect? To be clear, what you have described are two sadly opinionated, myopic, idealistic, biased/bigoted professors, among apparently hundreds of a similar caste, paid from the public purse and teaching our youth in what can be presumed to be public institutions. What is required is not intellectualization and handwringing, but control of our employees. Plainly, if they are not doing the job for which they are paid, replace them with someone who will. If the university administrators won’t do their job, replace them. If the structure of our educational system doesn’t allow this, then change it. We must fight our way out of the Kafkaesque corner we have painted ourselves into, or move to Montana.
Well, I presume even idiots are still entitled to their opinions in America: just so long as they are not teaching them as facts in the class room. That’s what I like about America, you generally get know who the idiots are, even presidents. It sure would have been nice if the idiots in the media had exercised their rights and obligations as journalists, and perhaps we wouldn’t have the current idiot in the White House.
People should be able to believe what they want after a through study a subject. Using information gleaned from the TV and idiotic hollywood films is what most people believe. Educate yourselves and you people on this over-the-top republican forum might just learn something.
Another example of those who worship Hubal.
#27 Stromfront fool,
What elce might individuals learn about the followers of Mohammad who raped, murdered, and the murder of millions in WWII by State Socialism?
I am my college professor’s favorite pupil. He calls himself a “philosophical progressive” (whatever that means) and he tells wonderful stories about Mao Zedong and how deeply spirtual it is to become a Progressive. He told us not to pay any attention to those horrible rumors that the Conservatives preach to us about Brother Mao’s murder of 60 million. I know it’s a lie, that’s what a girl on Facebook said. After all, President Obama had a Mao ornamate hanging fron the White House Christmas tree, right on cool. After learning all of these new political ideas, I went out and got the latest Che Guevara t-shirt. It is so rad. My professor went to Harvard like Obama did so I know he loves Che too. My professor said Hollywood helped to revive another leftist martyr but my uncle (who was in the Army) said Hollywood has dutifully churned out yet another cinematic agitprop paean and that I should read to try to discern why many supposedly democratic, civil libertarian liberals still swoon over this Stalinist mass-murderer. What ever that means, later dude.
No wonder? The NYTImes is the last bastion of whitewashing communist excesses and atrocities. While Duranty’s work no longer lives on in a column, it survives in the subtleties each day, wafting from the perfumed caskets, where truth is cremated or buried daily.
It’s a sort of journalistic ethic cleansing ritual, observed by the faithful, who have never met a Stalin apologist, or for that matter, a Chavez apologist, a Pol Pot apologist/whitewasher, a mass murdering Mao apologist, or a Che apologist/whitewasher…that it wouldn’t place on a pedestal. There seems to be a new wave of apologia mania sweeping the far left reaches of the political spectrum, where the inane and insane reside, now looking to give a little cleansing to Hitler as well. Oliver Stone has permanent residence in this loony bin, but he has neighbors. And they all have the NYTImes delivered to their doorstep.
No man or woman of honor should continue working in such a place, ah…but they do. And perhaps THAT is the saddest fact of all. Those who know, from the inside…and remain silent.
How are Islamic nations that are specifically geared towards the hegemony of Islam any different from a so-call Zionist? The name of Egypt is The Arab Republic of Egypt. How is that different and this coming from the country that almost universally hates Israel for doing, are you ready, exactly what Egypt itself does.
By the standards of Israel’s own anti-Zionist Islamic critics, those same Islamic polities are themselves Zionists.
Christians in Egypt make up maybe 15% of the population. To get a permit to build a church is much more difficult than to build a mosque. Christians here have taken to getting permits for social centers and then building a church to get around this. The other day, work was ordered stopped on a church/social center when the Egyptians authorities found out what was going on in Giza. A small riot broke out and a Christian was shot and killed.
In the Turkish constitution, I read that only a Turk is a real citizen. For years this nation has not allowed Kurds to have Kurdish names and use their language. This coming from another country that has a prime minister who has been pillorying Israel for Jerusalem and Zionism, and that man speaking from the former Constantanople. Gee, can the Christians have that back? Oh, that’s right, only muslims have eternal waqfs that basically states that anything ever muslim is so throughout eternity. I guess Spain is really muslim then. When does the right of return statute of limitations run out so the Palestinian Arabs can join the Byzantine Christians on the dung heap of history? If there are bigger hypocrites in the world than muslims I don’t know who it is.
Muslims claim Jerusalem while recognizing Jesus as a prophet who represented a Jewish presence in Palestine 6 centuries before there was such a thing as Islam. Hello?
“Muslims claim Jerusalem while recognizing Jesus as a prophet who represented a Jewish presence in Palestine 6 centuries before there was such a thing as Islam. Hello?”
Yeah – doesn’t he know the christians got there first?
“I’ve also experienced that expressing one’s views on Israel (or the Jews) has the consequence of being labeled an anti-Semite.” [12/1 @ 5:02 AM]
Shocking, isn’t it, that those who express the belief that Israel ought not exist, or that it is a Nazi enterprise, or that it engages in genocide, and that sort of thing should be labeled “anti-Semite.” How unfair! They’re all no more than “anti-Zionists,” right?
As for those who express their views on Jews, that can be a bit trickier can’t it, since the “anti-Zionist” dodge may not be within the speaker’s reach.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/nov/25/spectator-apology-muslim-antisemitism [12/1 @ 9:23 AM]
Before a report in the ever so unbiased [snark] Guardian of a settlement in a libel case alleging a false accusation of antisemitism is taken as dispositive proof of the plaintiff’s claim, it is important to understand how very different libel law is in the UK from how it is in the US. In the UK, defendants in libel cases that here in the US would be tossed on an upfront motion for summary judgment often quickly surrender rather than incur huge costs to defend and possibly be forced to pay substantial damages. I don’t know the particulars of this one, so can’t go to the merits/demerits of it, but do think it important to make this point about a very fundamental and important difference in libel cases brought there and those brought here. Even the Brits are rethinking their libel laws, since they have increasingly experienced unscrupulous types using their courts to achieve unjust ends against authors who do not live in the UK, did not write in the UK, or address themselves to those in the UK, but whose publishers sold a few copies of their books in the UK.
Phillips claimed that the guy said something that he didn’t say. She’s acknowledged it, her paper has acknowledged it. It’s about as open-and-shut as a defamation case can get. In any reasonable legal libel test, calling somebody an anti-semite is probably going to get you across the line.
But you’re right – the UK actually HAS libel laws. I have to conclude that the US makes it very hard to sue for defamation, because otherwise michael mann would be a very wealthy individual by now.
We also have a fairly low threshold for defamation in australia. The trouble is – the people who seem to avail themselves of its benefits are the rich and powerful. We have a case right now of the editor of a national broadsheet newspaper threatening to sue (and the threat is, I believe, still in effect) an academic who tweeted (and attributed) something that somebody else said about him at a public meeting. We have high-profile journalists here who threaten bloggers over fairly minor personal slights. Some of them are said to be particularly vindictive.
The trouble is that (a) it’s costly and time-consuming to pursue a defamation case, so you’re much more likely to do it if you’ve got the backing of a large company and a legal department to do the paperwork for you. Individuals find it very hard going. And (b) it seems to be very easy to fall foul of the threshold test, and there are surprisingly few defences.
I think there should BE libel laws – it shouldn’t be allowed that somebody can make criminal allegations, for example. But the way they’re currently balanced here in australia (and I suggest also in the UK) they’re very skewed towards the people who have the means to go after people who annoy them.
But if an individual managed to successfully pursue a libel case against a newspaper, then good luck to him. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. Just imagine if americans could force the media to admit when they lied. Wouldn’t THAT change a few things?
Maybe the problem with so many illiterates in this country, is caused by the illiterates teaching them. If the Jewish people ran this country we would be financially better off and still have our freedoms that have been taken away from us. Oh I am not Jewish, I just read a lot of history.
Kaukab Siddique…LOL for some reason when I saw this name; it triggered a memory of Robert DeNiro on SNL years ago. His role: a national security guy at a press conference, reading ME-sounding made-up names of “terrorists” like “Haid D’Salamii” and many others. Might still be on YouTube…
Levity aside, the West and true Islam are obviously incompatible. The Koran cannot be changed, the killers will always use it. This is a never-ending battle. I vote that retreating is not an option.
Dear Friends, The chickens are comming home to roost. The world has not improved its morals since 1939. The Catholic Church elected a Hitlerite to lead it and is elevating a moral pipsqueak to ” Sainthood “. The ” United Nations ” elected a Waffen SS officer to its highest position and has spent most of its energy since then in defaming Jews, Judaism and The Jewish State. The world press has decided that lies told about Jews will now be called ” narrative ” in order to disguise the nature of blasphemy and deceipt. You think that you are safe because you don’t live in Israel or are not a Jew? The Islamic maniacs that want us dead and gone want the same for you. There is a Judge and there is Judgement. The day is comming and if you listen hard enough, look deep enough and open your heart you have a chance of survival. If not, not.
Blessings from Yerushalayim.
MBY
“You think your are safe because you don’t live in Israel or are not a Jew?”
That is not true. We here in America know the CFR controled State Department can’t get the problem called Islam into these United States fast enough, as well as keeping the southern border open for all kinds of nasty individuals.
If you look deep enough Sir, you will have seen weapon sales through the roof these past two years with a BLT Marxist as POTUS.
The confidence most of us have comes from the six extra clips.
I wish the Congress of the US had the guts to pass a law making “Islam” a political party and a way of life,rather than a ‘religion’, which it is not.
This man is entitled to spew whatever falsehoods he wants. It is up to a University to decide if his teaching is worth anyone’s time or if he should be accorded the position of professor.
We should all learn by example. Some of us learn from good examples. Sometimes, however, the example is a bad one. As long as people understand what he is about and what he teaches, I see no problem with people taking his class. If they were predisposed toward hatred, they’ll learn hatred.
The important thing is to learn from the derangement this man spews. The real lesson is not what he teaches, but how. He is not the only one to claim this mantle of Holocaust Denial.
Sometimes people teach us without meaning to.
Free speech should remain free, meaning he should not be imprisoned for his idiotic remarks. however, there are consequences to consider and he should be fired. I realize he wont as he is no doubt tenured, but he makes a compelling argument for it’s elimination.
For those who think free speech does not have consequences, tell your wife she is fat when you get home tonight.
There are two reasons why I’ve decided to respond to several people in one separate post:
1. The addressees’ posts don’t have the option “Reply”;
2. The contents and the content (essence) of their answers to my posts (as well as the manner of disputing of some of them) go definitely beyond the scope of the initial topic called “Holocaust Denial From U.S. Professors: Academic Freedom?” Therefore, a speedy completion of the emerged deviation is needed.
First, the simplest:
To the impostor (or pretender?) Mordechai Anielewicz Tuvia Bielsky:
In my religion, taking the names of a famous Resistance Fighter and a famous Partisan Leader and putting them together for one’s own is immodest and impudent.
But what is even more immature is the long citing from one of books of a Rabbi (who was born in 1948 in New York to Jewish emigres from the former USSR and studied Jewish history at Columbia University) as if it’s the Sacred Cow.
What purpose should that quotation serve for?
To prove that the Chmelnitski (better: Khmelnitski) Rebellion did happen?
Did I or anybody else object that it did happen? No, I didn’t object, I confirmed, even with the most reliable of all known numbers of “casualties” (which some of participants rush to object with no reliable proof.)
Or maybe, to visualize the horror of mass murder that happened 400 years ago?
To prove what?
That the mass murder which occurred 400 years ago was more brutal than the mass murder organized by Bolsheviks in XX Century?
No, those two mass murders cannot be compared simply because the Bolshevik horror has only one competitor and it is the Nazis horror, but for all that in such a “competition” Bolsheviks take the “First Prize.”
Tears of the 400-year remote event have dried up many years ago.
Tears caused by Bolsheviks and Nazis are still wet.
Germans officially repented of atrocities committed to almost 6 million Jews, even though not all Germans were Nazis.
I still didn’t hear any repentance for complete destruction of my motherland and for DOZENS OF MILLIONS of citizenry of Russia.
Nobody begged me of pardon for my step-uncle, a very peaceful Orthodox priest who perished in GULAG being only 33 years old.
There are still plenty of defenders of the Communist Regime not only on the Brighton Beech in Brooklyn, NY, but all over the country. The Capitol Hill and the White House included.
Am I right, Bernie Sanders, David Axelrod, Rahm Emanuel, Cass Sunstein, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Russ Feingold, Joe Lieberman, Andy Stern, etc etc etc?
*********************************************
Second, also pretty simple: to Ronnie Schreiber.
This Mister is simply badly educated and shows a bad upbringing.
A) Calling me “Jew hating Nazi sympathizing rectal orifice” is not only extremely stupid, boorish and impudent, but also reveals symptoms of a very life-threatening mental sickness. Poor baby.
The same relates to his phrase “that Ukrainians like you volunteered to work in the German’s slave labor and death camps.” But now, it’s not only a “poor baby”, it’s a very stinky creature.
B) Saying “you were sucking the teat of the sow that bore you” deserves a good punch in the muzzle uttering such things.
C) Saying “your sister says that the Jewish guy she’s getting banged by is better in bed than you are” deserves another one good conk (this time better by foot) in the muzzle uttering such things.
D) Hurling an insult at all Ukrainians is absolutely indistinguishable from Antisemitism. Smart people will definitely draw a certain conclusion. Hopefully, a right one.
E) Now to your “numbers”: “it was more like 250,000.” Did you count that number personally 400 years ago?
F) “cited by historians” May we know the names of those “historians” and the sources?
G) “lowest figure [cited by historians] is 100,000, the highest, 300,000. This was a time when the world Jewish population was only about 1.5 million.”
I think your phrase could sound a lot more impressive if you put it in this way: “When the world Jewish population was only about 1.5 million, Chmielnitsky with his Cossacks have murdered over 2 Million of Jews.”
H) As for your “Ben zonah, yimach shimcha” I can’t even offer to you to “Kish mir Yiddishe tuchas” because you cause squeamishness, a feeling of disgust.
*********************************************
Third, to the most intelligent interlocutor Andy Gump:
You said: “I also know that the Poles used the Jews as their tax collectors. That doesn’t pardon the Cossacks or the Poles or the Ukrainians.”
I said the same before you: “… in any case, it does not excuse slaughtering people.”
You said: “The Jewish Bolsheviks are a misnomer that’s why I use “Jewish” Bolsheviks.”
I just emphasized that along with Bolsheviks of different ethnicity, a huge number of Jews not only participated in the Bolshevik Revolution 1917 and the following destruction of my motherland but even played a LEADING ROLE in that most inhuman, the bloodiest catastrophe in the human history.
Should I bring up and enumerate here the names of the Bolshevik ruling clique?
It will be not enough place here.
I emphasize again and again: the catastrophe organized by Nazis (together with Soviet Communists) is tremendous, inhuman and never forgettable.
But the catastrophe organized by Bolsheviks that lasted 73 years and took as many lives of the OWN citizenry as German Nazis with their alliances took in the entire world during the WWII, is also tremendous, inhuman and never forgettable.
But strangely, certain people don’t acknowledge that and don’t want to repent. And our particular discussion confirms this fact.
You said: “Yes they became butchers and carried out Stalin’s whims without a thought to human life.”
I say that you again show how many even decent people are poisoned by the Commies propaganda: the Commies atrocities did not start from and by Stalin; they were initiated, incited and committed from and by Lenin and his accomplices. Should I remind you who they were?
You said: “The question is …. is a man who rejects his own religion still regarded as a member of that group. Its only done with Jews. …..A convert from Judaism to Communism therefore should be called a Communist or Bolshevik. Using the term Jewish Bolshevik screams anti-Semitism.”
I say: is it OK to use the term “Russian Bolshevik (aka Communist)”? “French Communist”? “German Communist”?
If it’s OK, then the term Jewish Communist is perfectly fine.
I personally am against using such pairs.
But I am not against a close demographic study of adherents of the most inhuman ideology called Socialism/Communism.
As for you conclusion “Using the term Jewish Bolshevik screams antisemitism,” I think it’s lacking of logic and facts.
If you want to identify Jews only by Judaism, then you inevitably deny over (at least) 30% of Israelites of their Jewishness-by-blood. It’s a pity.
You said: “Now I want to get back the subject of pogroms. There were far more pogroms than you have stated. I don’t know where you get your figures. Czar Nicholas II had over two hundred sanctioned pogroms. Let me emphasize sanctioned. With that treatment, it is easy to understand why so many Jews became Bolsheviks.”
This your beautiful passage deserves a special scrutiny.
1. The subject of particular forum is not “the subject of pogroms” but rather ‘Holocaust denial’ by rabid Muslims as defended by the 1st Amendment.
2. “far more pogroms than you have stated” – I stated not the number of pogroms but the period “from – to,” which may include as many events as are reliably documented and provable.
3. “I don’t know where you get your figures” – the same I can say about you: your assertion “Czar Nicholas II had over two hundred sanctioned pogroms” is not necessarily wrong but hardly provable. Czar Nicolas the Second did personally not sanction any pogroms if by “sanction” you mean “decree”, but he did encourage his Chief of Police and the Chief of “Okhranka” (Department of Pubic Security and Order) to do that and to activate the antisemitic propaganda.
4. “With that treatment, it is easy to understand why so many Jews became Bolsheviks” – I agree with you that “it is easy to understand.”
Does it justify all the following atrocities the Bolsheviks committed?
No.
I accept the Torah’s “trade” “eye for eye.”
I don’t accept the Commies’ “trade” “1,700 eyes for one eye.”
******************
Next.
You said: “All they ever wanted was equality which they never had.”
I ask: equality with whom?
I ask: Did they get equality they wanted and poured so much blood for?
I ask further: did the 73 years of complete inequality not teach that
a) equality of human beings can be accepted as a notion only if considered BEFORE GOD, not before human beings themselves (just like ants seem to be equal to a standing tall human); any attempts to establish “equality” by force turned to be nightmarish bloodshed. NO EXCEPTION.
b) the very ideology of Communism is based on a bloody class warfare and, if implemented, inevitably leads to inequality and to dictatorship of some over others.
Is this the equality that Jews were and still are so desirous of?
c) equality of POSSIBILITIES can and should be established by peaceful means only in Democratic countries.
You said: “It was always part of the Polish culture”. If you allow yourself to accuse the entire nation of antisemitism, then why are you objecting any generalization with regard to Jews?
You said: “….[antisemitism] was always an underlying current in that part of the world”
I say: not only “in that part of the world” and not only in XVII Century in Poland and Ukraine: Antisemitism started when the swiftly grown Jewish population in Egypt became a demographic danger to Egyptians who initially gave a friendly shelter to starving Jews who suffered drought and bad harvest in their land and therefore moved to a foreign land.
And the last.
You said: “As for my moral values, I don’t give a damn what you surmise of them. I am content with myself and society, my community is content with me. Judge yourself in why you have to refer to the Bolsheviks as Jewish Bolsheviks. Also I question that you are really a Jew. I don’t know of any Jews named Constantine if that is your real name. If you were a Jew, you’d truly understand the implications of what you say. On the other hand the Soros type, or the Finkelstein type, or the Chomsky type would have no problem using such a term.
Have a good day.”
A) Frankly, I also “don’t give a damn” for your opinion, too.
B) I didn’t “refer to the Bolsheviks as Jewish Bolsheviks,” you did (just re-read my posts.)
I said that MANY JEWS PLAYED THE LEADING ROLE IN BOLSHEVIKS’ ATROCITIES.
C) Unlike your fake (?)[nick]name “Andy Gump (formerly Oscar the Grump)”, my real name is Constantine.
That you “don’t know of any Jews named Constantine” means only that you know very little.
The name was given to me by my Russian dad when he fought against Nazis, and my Jewish mom gladly accepted that name.
D) I do “truly understand the implications of what [I] say”, that’s why I said that “I foresee your and many others’ reaction.”
But seemingly you and particularly some others do not accept freedom of speech when an opinion is different for yours.
That’s why some other, less intelligent, people immediately started cursing me, cowardly using Hebrew transliteration.
Thank God, you are more intelligent.
Since you presumably dislike Soros and Chomsky, I can say that we are in the same boat with regard to the ideology.
The only difference between you and me is that I openly condemn the broad participation of MANY (sic! not all) Jews in the Bolshevik Revolution and their genetic Leftism today.
Have a good day.
Happy Hanukkah!
Constantine, back to our discussion…..
One of my wife’s uncles was killed by the Bolsheviks another was wounded and subsequently lost his leg because of them. Yes, they were both Jewish. Bolsheviks killed and it didn’t matter who. Its that close. Therefore you can understand the sensitivity. Which brings me back to the subject of Jewish Bolsheviks. Yes, a large number of the Bolsheviks were of Jewish origin. Asking the Jews in general for some sort of apology for the actions of the Bolsheviks is ludicrous. It lays the blame entirely on all the Jews. I don’t suppose there were any Slavs, Beyelo Russians, or Georgians involved. Those Jews that participated in such actions did not and still do not call themselves Jews. What you want assigns blame due to blood line rather than dogma. This harks back to the original sin “all Jews are responsible for the killing of Christ”. Why not just call us Christ killers, that’s what the Ukrainians still call us. I will repeat that the Ukrainian hate for Jews was in place before the Stalin murders. It wasn’t due directly to them. People I knew, now deceased, told me of the pre-Bolshevik Ukraine and what I described was practically a quote form them.
Now let me interject another story. I had a man working for me whose father was Jewish and mother was Ukrainian. The father converted to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and this particular young man was raised a Christian. While on the job, the young man asked me, “Why are all Jews rich?” I had heard this before; but, I never heard this from anyone who had a Jewish father. Personally I am of modest means, hearing this from a man in my employment was a shock. It expressed his underlying feelings and at the very least I was uncomfortable. I didn’t answer him and was never at ease with him again. What should I have said? Should I have told him the truth? Here is the truth. We work hard, we educate ourselves and our children. We save our money and we invest it. On the other hand, this young man came to work reeking of alcohol and cigarettes. He was never punctual, was never that hard working and had to take breaks. Now I was working shoulder to shoulder with him and rarely needed such breaks. I was glad to part company with him when the job was done.
This brings me to the major point I want to bring up. What exactly was your goal in bring in the subject of Jewish participation in the Ukrainian Holocaust? You clearly stated that the subject of this blog was Holocaust denying academics. In this case, it involves a Moslem Professor who works at a black university. A more appropriate subject would have been, “Is this Moslem Professor helping feed the black anti-Semitism in the Country?” Without question you know that answer.
As for your name, I am clearly shocked that a man who considers himself a Jew doesn’t see the irony of being named after a Christian Saint. I don’t use my real name because I am active in my community. I openly face anti-Semites in confrontational situations. Putting my name out there only invites reprisal. I would dearly love to continue my discussion with you and would allow PJM to give you my email address.
Hakzameyah.
Hi Andy,
since you said that you “would dearly love to continue [my] discussion with you,” I allow myself to go item-by-item in your response (this is what you want?)
You said: “they were both Jewish. Bolsheviks killed and it didn’t matter who”
I already told that yes, Hitler and Nazis also killed a significant number of Germans and Austrians, members of their own party.
Nevertheless, that fact didn’t transfer them to a category of “German-haters” and/or “Nazi-haters.”
The same with Bolsheviks of Jewish ethnicity.
For example, did Lazar Kaganovich exclude Jews from those (3 to 10 Million; the exact number is still unknown) of people whom he doomed to death from starvation in Ukraine when he organized the Famine of 1932-1933?
No, he didn’t. Why? Because he hated Jews?
Oh no, no. Just because for that kind of people there are only two guidelines: ideological fanaticism and fear for own hide.
Do those presumable two reason make them less abominable? To my humble opinion – nope.
And one thing more.
You said that atrocities committed against Jews in the past explain why many of them enthusiastically joined Bolsheviks.
And I agreed.
But then this very reason also makes them guilty of atrocities they have committed by themselves.
I do understand yours and others sensitivity; not only you have lost relatives and loved ones.
I am just not sure why sensitivity of living 15 Million of Jews (the entire world Jewish population) who are still mourning for almost 6 Million Jews perished in the Holocaust organized by Nazis deserves more compassion than the sensitivity of 140 Million Russians living in Russia and millions of Russians living abroad who are still mourning (or should mourn) for their destroyed country and almost 50 Million of compatriots who perished in the Holocaust organized by Commies.
Why dying simply because of a “wrong” class association or an ideological disagreement is less substantial, significant and important than dying because of ethnicity?
Particularly when and if the so-called “class warfare” sheds 10 time more blood…
In my particular case, I have lost many both Jewish and Russian relatives. And when I became mature enough to understand what kind of atrocities Bolsheviks/Commies committed in my country and abroad, I broke with my own father for 25 years until he shortly before his death repented of having been a member of the Communist Party.
So, if I didn’t forgive my own father his Communist membership even though he personally didn’t commit any crime against humanity, why should I forgive those who did?
You said: “Asking the Jews in general for some sort of apology for the actions of the Bolsheviks is ludicrous. It lays the blame entirely on all the Jews.”
And what’s so ridiculous?
Why was it no so absurd to demand apology (and financial reparation) from Germans? Does it not lay the blame entirely on all the Germans?
Or you apply different logic to different standpoints?
Whoopi Goldberg recently objected an O’Reilly’s statement that “we have a Muslim problem”: she said: no, we have terrorist problem.
If to follow that logic, we have to condemn only those particular individuals who are personally responsible for certain terrorist and/or crime actions.
The same logic is being defended/followed by Judge Andrew Napolitano.
If you agree with such logic, you presumably should stop condemning Nazism and therefore Germans and start accusing individual persons, one-by-one.
And, of course, therefore, demand reparations not from the German Government but from concrete individuals.
Do you like such a logic?
I don’t.
If you don’t, too, then why you apply this logic to Bolsheviks?
Only because their very “top” was predominantly Jewish?
I don’t understand what did you mean by your phrase “I don’t suppose there were any Slavs, Beyelo Russians, or Georgians involved.” Individuals of those nationalities were on both sides: common people and Commie murderers.
I do blame Commies of any nationality: Russians, Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Belorussians, Ukrainians, Tadzhiks, Uzbeks and anybody else.
That’s why I broke with my own Russian father.
But most of all I condemn the very TOP, the initiators, organizers, leaders of Bolsheviks’ crimes against humanity.
And it is not my guilt that that top was predominantly Jewish, particularly before late 1940s.
You further said: “Those Jews that participated in such actions did not and still do not call themselves Jews. What you want assigns blame due to blood line rather than dogma. This harks back to the original sin “all Jews are responsible for the killing of Christ”.”
Firstly, again, if you (as you did) explain or even (God forbid!) justify the broad participation of Jews in the Bolsheviks Revolution by oppression they were suffering in Russia, Ukraine, Poland and elsewhere, then it doesn’t matter how they called themselves – Jews or Marxists or dinosaurs, whatever.
The important thing is how YOU see that period: if you explain (you said: “it’s easy to understand…”, and I agreed) the broad participation of Jews (in leading roles!) by their predecessors’ suffering, then you simply can’t “peel off” the Jewish skin from Kamenev, Zinoviev, Sverdlov, and hundreds of other Bolshevik leaders.
Unless you want to get “F minus” for your logic class, of course.
As for “killing of Christ”…. hmmm…it’s a difficult matter.
Do we blame Germans for electing democratically Hitler?
Do we blame Russians for supporting and participating in Bolshevism?
Do we blame Chinese for supporting and participating in Maoism?
Do we blame Palestinians for constant attacking Israel?
If we do, then we have to acknowledge that the children of Israel led by chief priests and the elders have chosen “a notable prisoner, called Barabbas” to be released:
24. So when Pilate saw that he prevailed nothing, but rather that a tumult was arising, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this righteous man; see ye to it .
25. And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
26. Then released he unto them Barabbas; but Jesus he scourged and delivered to be crucified. (Matthew 27:24-26)
Thus, we came to the same logical “trap”: either we want to be honest acknowledging facts and follow the same logic, or we sacrifice our own honesty for the sake of…whatever.
But in general we can and must be responsible for bad deeds of our predecessors ONLY WHEN AND IF we do not condemn those bad deeds and don’t repent of them.
Germans condemned and repented.
That’s why they are not responsible anymore for the crimes of their predecessors, the Nazis.
So, I am in “idle, stand-by” position, waiting for good news. Unfortunately, not much time left to me.
I can agree with you that antisemitism in Ukraine was long before Lenin and Stalin.
I am not Ukrainian and never lived in Ukraine, I only know history pretty well, on a professional level.
But again, if you call all Ukrainians Jew-haters, then you should not object when and if somebody generalizes something with regard to Jews.
Keep the same logic! Honesty is above all. (not in Israel, as my cousin who lives in Israel says, though)
You ask: “What exactly was your goal in bring in the subject of Jewish participation in the Ukrainian Holocaust?”
Actually, you’re wrong, it’s not me, you did. Please re-read my original post and your immediate response to it.
And since you’ve brought that particular topic often called “Golodomor,” I was more or less thoroughly responding to you.
With regard to that rabid Muslim so-called “professor,” I clearly stated in the same original post that he is an ordinary Jew-hater, and as such, of course, he is spreading psychopathic hatred for Jews.
The only reason of my “penetration” into the forum discussion is that I always feel very uncomfortable when Jews blindly defend and support what should never be defended and supported – Marxism ideology.
But I do realize what are the subsurface reasons of the unwillingness to loudly and effectively condemn Communist ideology.
Chag Oorim Sameach.
Yosher me-al ha-kol
כנות מעל לכל דבר אחר
Kenut me-al le-hol davar acher.
Bravo for your comments. “Not every Jew is a commie, but every commie is a Jew”. Heard that one? It was very popular way back when the Bolshies were destroying millions. The Bolshie revolution was known as the REVOLT OF THE JEWISH INTELLECTUAL. Read the writings of Churchill who commented at the prevalence of Jews in the Russian Revolution. This is a fact that keeps on being ignored because of who the perpetrators were. Many reasons are given for the genocide of millions: pogroms, the Czar, etc. but the fact remains that a huge population was held hostage by a few committed Communist Terrorists who were Jewish. And it continues today. Look around you and note the names of those pushing for our cultural meltdown: homosexual rights, civil liberties, women’s rights, immigration rights, the list goes on and on. Many are Jews whose agenda is the stealth Marxification of America. They grew up in households (red diaper babies) where Marxism was a religion for them and they have infected the rest of America with their mental disease. The fact that many are Jews needs to be said and the reasons why they still continue to push a deadly political disease needs to be discussed and explored. Shouting anti-Semite every time this fact is brought up only makes the target seem desperate and the questioner more committed to the truth.
Sorry, Andy,
I forgot to answer some of your points:
“…What should I have said? Should I have told him the truth? Here is the truth. We work hard, we educate ourselves and our children…..”
Yes, the hard work always helped many Jews to survive in sometime very unfriendly social environment.
And it’s a pity that many people of other nationalities don’t follow the same pattern.
But the fact that there are many not rich or even simply poor Jews even in our days (just watch on TV the commercial by Rabbi Epstein gathering money for Hanukkah for poor Jews in Russia) proves that your generalization is suffering the same problem: GENERALIZATION.
Again, if you are talking about a NATIONAL PECULITARITIES, about a NATIONAL CHARACTER, not about individuals, then you put yourself in the same “trap”: what applies to others, should be applied to Jews, too.
Otherwise you inevitably arrive at nationalism. This time – Jewish nationalism.
What should you have said, you ask?
Well, say that not all rich Jews are Soroses and Maddofs.
You can say that you know not-rich Jews who hate Soros and Madoff but are very tender, fond and loving with their Jewish wives, children and parents.
Just like there are hard-working but not-rich Ukrainians who are married to Jewesses and are very happy with them.
Just like there are hard-working but not-rich Russians who are married to Jewesses and are very happy with them.
I am 100% certain that you know at least one of them already: it’s me.
And please don’t be shocked that I don’t see the irony of being named after my Russian grandfather: why actually my Jewish mom should have been objecting it? Disrespect to husband’s parents? To the husband?
I wouldn’t be shocked if the same happened to you few days of age. Particularly if named after a relative who suffered from Commies.
And the last: I never hid my name whether I was fighting against anti-Semites or KGB or rabid Muslims.
But you’re welcome to continue your discussion with me. I don’t mind.
Kenut me-al le-hol davar acher
Constantine I have to say that I respect you; but, you sure are full of sh’t. Your need for a mia copa from all Jews is beyond any rational thought. Do I blame all Germans…..no. Do I blame all Poles…..again no. Do I blame all Ukrainians…..again no. But, in your case I’m sure tempted. In most cases, they were guilty not of being active killers, rather of being passive about the cancer that was enveloping them.
A German soldier pulled my Grandfather out of a ravine and sent him on his way to Russia in 1939. It saved his life. I’d like to think that the soldier survived the war.
My wife knows the family of a lady who was a righteous gentile in Poland during the war. She helped save about thirty-six people and was honored for it. We saw the medal that was awarded to her in Israel.
A Ukrainian farmer took a naked wounded man named Paikow off a road and to his home. Nursed him back to health and helped him. Paikow was a survivor of one of the killing fields and saw his wife and child shot in front of him. Paikow became a gorilla fighter and fought the Germans after that.
My point is that there were a few and as G-d said for the sake of ten righteous men I will not destroy Sodom and Gamora. In the case of the Jews, how many were Bolsheviks? Were there 1000 or 10,000 even 100,000.
How many Jews were living in Russia and the Ukraine? Was there one million or two million or three million?
What you are asking is for the majority to be responsible for a minority. In the very least scenario for Jews and the highest number for Jewish Bolsheviks it was one in ten. That means that whole population should ask forgiveness because of the few even though they were totally innocent. Conversely, if the number was below the 100,000 and closer to the 10,000, you see how ludicrous the whole scenario is.
This reminds of a personal story. In a place where I was working they were having a dinner and I was seated next to a black lady. We got into a discussion and I let her know that in my younger days I worked for integration and actually put my life on the line for it. She answered me, “Well you paid your dues then.” When I heard that, I asked what dues was I required to pay. I told her, I wasn’t born here. Neither I nor my family did anything to anyone black. I wanted to know exactly what my dues were….I guess its some tax because I was white and therefore automatically guilty of some sin.
Please don’t quote the new testament to me. What ever the story of Jesus there was, was changed by the Greeks who wrote the new testament. It was definitely written to portray the Jews as bad and is the original blood libel. Reality is that Jesus was killed on a Friday night (the beginning of the Sabbath) and during Passover which is a real kicker. No Jew would have sanctioned or participated in such an atrocity on such a holy night. All death sentences were given an automatic appeal to the Sanhedrin which would have had to meet that night (impossible). Jewish sentences of death came in two forms stoning or banishment to the desert as prescribed by our Torah.
Marxism or communal living was a part of Judaism as early as Jesus’ time. The Essenic Jews of that era practiced a form of it as early as that. Even today they have Kibbutzim in Israel which are communal farms. The concept of Marxism or communal life is not necessarily bad. The Maciavalian form it took under the Bolsheviks is another matter. Life meant nothing to them; thereby, they cancelled the very concept of a Utopian society.
Dear Andy,
I can’t help but laud you: fundamentally, I don’t see anything objectable in your response.
Some details?
Of course.
But those details don’t shade from the essence.
So, I am not going to analyze every single word, as I did before.
Moreover, what makes me happy is that you uttered what I was waiting for and didn’t want to pronounce by myself:
“Marxism or communal living was a part of Judaism as early as Jesus’ time. The Essenic Jews of that era practiced a form of it as early as that. Even today they have Kibbutzim in Israel which are communal farms.”
Your words, not mine. And I do agree.
Yes, I agree 100%, because I knew that from very long time ago.
The only difference between you and me seems to be that I can not accept for a second your statement that “The concept of Marxism or communal life is not necessarily bad.”
It may be good for primitive tribes or in small communities (like Israel), but it is absolutely not achievable neither philosophically nor economically nor socially in modern times in big multinational countries without inevitable disasters – social, economical and philosophical.
And exactly the unwillingness to understand that indisputable historical fact led and still leads many Jews to support and participate in Marxist movements, from Lenin’s Bolshevism to Obama’s “State semi-capitalism.”
And taking into account the enormous volume of bloodshed any attempts to implement that inhuman ideology inevitably led to, I can’t calmly observe on stubbornness of my blood brothers and sisters understanding and acknowledging that pretty obvious and pretty transparently documented fact.
I think I know WHY such stubbornness, and it makes me furious.
As for Abraham bargaining with God about Sodom and Sodomites, I always thought that it became an example of how a human taught God some sense, or better to say, put God on the right path: “And Jehovah went away when he had ended speaking to Abraham.”
It always seemed to me very impudent.
But logically you have arrived at the same point: to obey your logic, I have to stop, for a gloomy instance, blaming Nazism and start blaming only concrete Nazis.
I have to stop, for a further gloomy instance, blaming Communism and start blaming only concrete Commies.
I reject such logic, dear Andy.
Maybe, I am wrong. Jehovah will judge me.
Not a human, even if it was Abraham.
I never thought for any instance that I would be defending Communism, but it was fun. I am very much a capitalist/conservative/anti-Obama…Pelossi…Reid….etc. and am proud to say it. I actually worked against Boxer and Waxman in this State.
That said, I’m going to enjoy crossing verbs, adverbs and adjectives with you in the future.
Be well my friend.
Dear Andy,
first of all, I greet you “conservative/anti-Obama…Pelossi…Reid…etc.”
I also salute you working “against Boxer and Waxman” (those among most radical mad “representatives”.)
Secondly, to conclude our charming thoughts-exchange, I want to make sure you (and others) understood my main point properly:
my dream is that all Jews, when strongly condemning Holocaust organized by Nazis and its deniers, would also simultaneously not less strongly condemn Holocaust organized by Sozis (Bolsheviks of Russia and Communists of the entire world) and its deniers.
With all subsequent consequences…
Be well my friend.