Holder Strikes Out in First Gitmo Civilian Trial
And from the jury’s action it appears clear that without the evidence barred by the civilian rule that the government cannot use evidence which it obtained by improper interrogation means — even if that evidence is sound in every way — the jury had insufficient evidence to find the defendant guilty of the murder charges:
The first former Guantánamo detainee to be tried in a civilian court was acquitted on Wednesday of all but one of more than 280 charges of conspiracy and murder in the 1998 terrorist bombings of the United States Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. …
The defendant, Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani, 36, was convicted of one count of conspiracy to destroy government buildings and property. He was acquitted of four counts of conspiracy, including conspiring to kill Americans and use weapons of mass destruction. …
Mr. Ghailani faces a sentence of 20 years to life in prison.
The New York Times suggests this may fuel new debate about where these people should be tried. I think that’s an understatement of the first rank. Sane legal scholars think the military tribunal option is adequate and preferable.
The Times also suggests that the judge’s ruling which permitted the trial to go forward over the defense objections of torture while in U.S. custody (a charge I do not believe he could or did substantiate) could be seen to pave the way for a civilian trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
Of course, Mohammed was, as we know, waterboarded before confessing, while Ghailani, who merely remained in sustained detention, never was.
But this is all picking around the edges.
The notion that people like this should be tried under the rules of U.S. criminal law applicable to civilians is the sort of preposterous silliness that defies reason.
That even if they are acquitted in civilian courts we can and likely will continue to hold them in indefinite detention seems to me to underscore that these are show trials to appeal to the president’s left base. I don’t understand how the attorney general and president can think there is any benefit to this costly, risky enterprise. On the one hand, they stand to turn commonsense legal rulings on their heads and make martyrs of murderous thugs. On the other hand, the whole show trial aspect of it all undermines the rule of law. If you are going to try these men in civilian courts with rules designed to rein in law enforcement officials, not soldiers in battle who must operate under different circumstances, you should be prepared to take the consequences of releasing them to do more acts of murder and terrorism if you lose. If you are unwilling to take that very substantial gamble with national security, try them in military courts, which have more appropriately fashioned rules to make sure that evidence is sound and obtained in a manner more suited to the circumstances than those designed to deal with, say, armed robbery.
Obama and his toady Holder opened this Pandora’s box. In a country where a stupid woman can win millions in damages for spilling hot coffee on her fat thighs while she was supposedly driving this was bound to happen. Those two imbeciles have blood on their hands and should be held accountable, but of course they won’t.
There was way too much MONEY to be made defending this guy for justice to be served….This case employed untold THOUSANDS of people….
Government Morons, administrators, clerks, shrinks, lawyers, lawyers, and more lawyers, reviewers and re-reviewers to review that which was reviewed….millions upon millions of man-hours of time and labor billed to the Taxpayers…
A gravy train of this epic proportions could never submit to the Justice of a .39 cent bullet
He is not dithering on this. If he could’ve gotten the trials, he’d've exulted. It was a political defeat. There is no political gain to be salvaged, so he is no longer interested. These guys are not interested in the public weal. They are interested only in power.
The dirtbag’ll be held indefinitely, and no one will care. The Left won’t care, and the Right will want to see a Court-Martial and subsequent execution. Maybe the Left will make an issue out of it when the Right regains power and goes forward with a court-Martial. They’ll call us hypocrites if we don’t. Political advantage. Power.
I won’t hold my breath waiting for a press release from that a$$hat Holder saying, “Well, that didn’t work out so well.”
Snake Plisshen?
I heard you were dead
Maybe it did work out the way they intended..
From the desk of Eric Holder:
To the American people:
As Attorney General of the United States, I would like to take this opportunity to bring to your attention our resounding success in the prosecution of Ahmed Ghailani. For those of you who are not familiar with Mr. Ghailani, he is the Al Qaeda operative who succeeded in bombing two of our embassies, one in Kenya and Tanzania. These bombings resulted in the deaths of 224 innocent people, many of them U.S. citizens. We have now brought this case to a close with the acquittal of Mr. Ghailani on all 224 counts of murder, although he was convicted of one count of conspiracy to destroy U.S. buildings and property.
Many of this administration’s enemies in the Republican party and right-wing press have malevolently asserted that Mr. Ghailani’s acquittal for murder demonstrates that this administration’s policy of trying foreign terrorists in civilian courts is a failure. I would like to point out that this is completely inaccurate, and that in point of fact this trial has been a complete success. Too often we allow ourselves to be caught up in notions of “winning” and “losing”, and in so doing lose sight of the bigger picture. The bigger picture here is that we have demonstrated to the world that we are willing to live by our own rules.
What exactly does this mean? This means that no matter what you do to a U.S. citizen, you can be assured that we will abide by all laws and rules of civil procedure if and when we happen to capture you. True, this may lead to a loss of life, especially for those in foreign service and the military, but this loss of life is completely justified in demonstrating our moral superiority, and that is what really matters.
Please be advised, when I refer to our moral superiority, I do not mean we are morally superior to the rest of the world, or to those impoverished unfortunates whose misunderstanding of Islam has led them into the extremist camp of Al Qaeda. No, I mean the moral superiority of this administration to that cowboy George W. Bush. I have no doubt that were Bush still in office poor Mr. Ghailani would meet a gruesome end regardless of the verdict in court. In fact, I believe it is quite likely that Mr. Ghailani would never have seen the inside of a civilian courtroom were Bush still in office. More likely it would have been some military star chamber, and then a bullet in the back of the head, and that would have constituted a complete failure of our system.
I am proud to say that the Obama administration in which I serve has proven today that regardless of the outcome, regardless of the implications for national security, and regardless of how much innocent American blood must be shed, we will never forsake our principals. These principals must hold fast. We will always adhere to the right of every unfortunate soul who misunderstands Islam and engages in extremist activities to have a fair trial in a civilian court. That is the bedrock principal upon which this nation rests, and we must never forsake it.
In closing then, allow me to re-iterate. We won today. The verdict was irrelevant, for we have proven to the world that we will always play by the rules of the civilian courtroom, regardless of the implications for the lives of our citizens, and in so doing have proven ourselves morally superior to that cowboy Bush and his fascist cohorts in the military and the Republican party. This is indeed a great day for America.
Sincerely,
Attorney General Eric Holder
It is very, very hard to try an islamic combattant in a civil court.
Soldiers searched the cave without warrant? Findings are thrown out.
Arrested combattant and did not read him his Miranda rights on the dusty fields of Afghanistan? Whatever he said, thrown out.
Wiretapped terrorist cellphones without warrant? Evidence not allowed.
CIA wont reveal their sourcesin order not to endanger them? Evidence not allowed.
Anything found by following clues from a waterboarded terrorist? Fruit of the poisonous tree…
Besides, which law applies to an irregular combattant fighting NATO soldiers in Afghanistan? Scharia?
Anyone in the legal professiion can come up in five minutes with a number of reasons why trying irregular combattants before a regular, civil court is next to impossible. The court system was never created to handle enemy combattants in a war.
Why would ANYONE believe for even one minute that this was not EXACTLY what AG Holder and President Obama truly wanted to happen? The stench is overwhelming.
Why does Eric Holder still have a job? This jerk should have been fired as soon as he lost the ability to have the trial for KSM in Manhattan. I think that, after this screw up, plus because of the backlash from his attacks on the state of Arizona, his days are numbered. I think he’ll be leaving soon to “spend more time with his family.” And we’ll all be better off because of it.
Clarice,
Nice to see you on Pajamas.
Slightly OT. An old JOM tactic. Heh.
Obama’s plan to rule by executive order:
http://newsflavor.com/opinions/the-ulsterman-report-obama-to-initiate-sweeping-executive-authority/
I read a few days ago that “Barack”, which means lightning, is the name of Mohammed’s horse, the one he was riding when transported up into Heaven. Is this in fact true?
I think the actual spelling is BARAK and it refers to the south end of a northbound horse.
Yup, it’s true. Pace the other reply, since it’s an Arabic word, the spelling in roman letters is indeterminate.
Treating acts of war as mere civilian crimes is juvenile. Barack Obama has the mentality of an immature college sophomore who believes everything he is being told by his left wing professors. He might well be ineligible to be CIC. He is certainly unfit.
The result of trying Ghaliani in a domestic criminal civil court was predictable. It’s time for all American patriots to make Obama’s re-election prospects as predictable.
C’mon folks, Obama is THE WORLD’S SMARTEST MAN. There has to be something else to this besides sheer stupidity. Something we can’t quite grasp with our minuscule brains. Like a chess player, Obama is ten or more steps ahead of the terrorists on this. While trying terrorists in civilian courts with full Constitutional protections afforded US citizens may seem like a completely moronic move to us mere mortals, Obama has got this completely handled.
Have faith.
HEH-HEH Good One!
Diggs:
Despite your tongue-in-cheek comments regarding Obama’s intelligence, there is indeed something else going on about these civilians trials that I haven’t noticed anyone talking about. It is that the fact of them is a camel’s-nose-inside-the-tent exercise in setting precedent for moving America in the direction of a borderless nation, where now our laws can apply to non-citizens in cases unrelated to events that occur on our soil by people who have never even been in America.
It’s the precedent for a world court, where increasingly Americans will no longer be protected by OUR Constitution but subject instead to international law. This is the goal of liberals, the one-world government, and they achieve it by taking small but outrageous steps like this civilian court trial just concluded. It sets a precedent (always a slippery slope in law), and future judicial decisions will cite it as reason to further erode our Constitution.
Holder won. He got his civilian trial.
With Obama and the left there is always something else going on behind the apparent and obvious; meanwhile, Americans run after the obvious, talking the implications to death — and rightly so — while the REAL damage is out of sight.
You have to understand what the end game is to read between the lines and look behind the curtain of the man working the scene.
Anybody who isn’t a clueless, immoral idiot knows that this is the right thing. Not only has CIA-style torture stuff has been shown to be far less effective than traditional FBI-type interrogations, but this became known early into the Iraq mess, yet Bush and his people kept it up. Few things say “I’m a friggin moron!” quicker than bad mouthing Obama over his decision to hold civilian trials. If you guys had a clue, an ounce of honesty, and even a pinch of integrity, you would be trashing Bush, Cheney, and their gang of malicious ne’er-do-wells for creating this BS situation in the first place.
Torture of all sorts does work, it just depends on what the subject is most susceptible to, and how well that weakness is exploited by the torturer. And information can always be verified. When the subject lies repeatedly, either put a bullet in his head and move on or try another approach. The bullet sends a message to his cohort in any event, and the endgame with Muslim terrorists is a zero-sum game anyway, if we are honest about it.
Find me a single university type (or military grand-stander fishing for an interview on NPR) who would actually come out and say what I just said above? They cannot even dream of thinking such a thing, let alone publish it, even if it were true. So when I read the literature about the non-effectiveness of torture, I take it as mostly fiction.
As for the morality, I view morality about the way a Marine on Okinawa did; highly contingent. Actually, like the war against the Imperial Japanese, the war with radical Islam will require a similar mindset: killing so many of them, that there aren’t enough left to actually fight. Let’s include Ahmed Ghailani.
BC you write this drivel and label others as “friggin moron”? You need to lay off the Kool-Aid pal. They say a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged. You need to be mugged, just like the terrorist slime has been mugging America. Then perhaps you could wake up and smell the coffee.
war, by its very nature is lawless– there is no reason for enemy combatants to even see a civilian courtroom and when the other side commits the atrocities they do against non combatants then its “war in the pacific” that is, any pretense of civility or humanity is tossed to the wayside
these jihadists need to be interrogated, tortured, milked dry, then executed— we’d probably save a couple hundred million dollars each time as well
War is not lawless, it is a ligitimate function, indeed a duty, of a State to protect its citizens and its interests from aggressive violent adversaries.
There are rules and standards that honorable nations commit themselves to…such as the destruction of no more than needed to acomplish the mission, no INTENTIONAL assault of unarmed non-combatants, respecting the rights of LIGITIMATE POW’s, etc. Every soldier is taught The Laws of Land Warfare, and is OBLIGATED to refuse to follow a clearly “unlawful” order, such as shooting women and children refugees.
However, in the fog of war, all benefit of the doubt rests with the soldiers…their perceptions of who was a threat, where fire was coming from, and who is a terrorist verses a ligitimate uniformed opponent must be respected, EVEN WHEN PROVEN WRONG AFTER THE FACT.
For instance, shooting in the DIRECTION of women and children, even when you KNOW there will be casualties among them, is NOT a crime if the mission and your safety depend on defeating an armed enemy who is using them as cover.
War is cruel to those involved. If the Terrorist KNOW we will not fire when they use human shields, then they will use them.
And this is the difference between us and them…We try not to, they do it on PURPOSE.
yes there are rules and structures but when the rules are dictated by political meanderings then we are already fighting with one arm behind our backs
sure discipline must be maintained and enforced but that is to protect the integrity of the unit itself and i understand the desire for “surgical” precision and limiting collatoral damage but when the uniformless enemey hides amongst women and children than the women and children need to get the hell out of there—
this is the essence of my whole point; when we let the enemy dictate the terms then we lose by default
“these jihadists need to be interrogated, tortured, milked dry, then executed— we’d probably save a couple hundred million dollars each time as well”
One of the shorter, but most on the mark, comments of the day!
“….CIA-style torture stuff has been shown to be far less effective than traditional FBI-type interrogations…”
Been shown? Been by WHO?
What case of interrogation verses interrogation, of data acquired verses data acquired are you using to make this statement.
News flash:
The Nazis were pretty nasty to the folks they interrogated, and they tended to get information pretty damn quick, too….ask some French Resistance survivors how fast their cells were taken down when someone got caught….
Why else do you think they carried cyanide capsules (when they could get them)?….not to save themselves the discomfort of torture, but to save their compatriots they knew they would give up, because guess what, tourture WORKS.
But we dont torture, waterboarding only THREE people, with no permanent maiming, isnt torture….sawing off a head live on the internet is
Buy….A…..Clue
To “The Root ’83″: Try clicking on those highlighted phrases in my post — those are links to people, including ex-FBI and ex-CIA agents, who say it doesn’t work.
Serious torture is suppose to work sometimes (when it isn’t generating false confessions to appease the torturers or to justify some BS policy), and the U.S. has been doing that by proxy, but that does not apparently include much if any of the Gitmo people. The thing is that while the average U.S. citizen thinks we don’t don’t go beyond waterboarding, everyone else knows that we do, and whatever random bits of useful info a brutalized terrorist suspect might reveal is not nearly enough to compensate for the hatred this generates and for the inter-agency conflicts it be creates (FBI agents don’t want to work with CIA agents because of stuff like this.)
when a prisoner gives false information then he loses a nut…
all the information needs to be “fact checked” and when the prisoner is caught being dishonest that is when the real heat is applied
all of our enemies think we are soft and cant stomach it
nevermind that the successes are 99% of the time confidential and unknown to the public
ex-cia? ex- fbi?—-> in other words, we know who these people are? our best and brightest are unknown to us as it should be
BC
For the record, regarding ACTUAL torture, the entirety of all recorded human history disagrees with you, and also with these few ill informed partisans you link to that think likewise. Torture unfortunately works, or it would have been abandoned a million years ago. Ask the Nazis, the Soviets, or the drug cartels how useful it is to get information. Torture works, and it works well.
However;
Waterboarding is not torture, its discomfort. Ive BEEN waterboarded. It sucks, its horrible, but its not torture. Having your fingers lopped off, bones broken, castrated, a hot clothing iron pressed against your skin… or maybe watching someone ELSE get maimed like that when “youre next” unless you spill the beans…THATS torture, and its been applied to every generation of American Soldier by our enimies since day one, and yet WE do not apply it to THEM.
So please, just STFU up about your imaginary “torture”.
If red ink, the presence of dogs, or paper from a particular book they fancy wiped on my ass creates a physcological meltdown in them, due to their contemptuously primative beliefs about a woman minstrial blood, unclean animals, and the horror of soiling divine parchment, all the better for us.
Because thats not torture either…
Its The Professor on Gilligans Island, frightening the savages with the flashight and the radio….(youre probably too young to remember that show)
Its NOT torture when the tourture THEMSELVES…
What it IS though, is laugh out loud funny, and we should do it to them every waking second of their miserable captured lives. Better treatment as prisoners than they will receive from anyONE else, anyWHERE else, on this entire frigging planet.
How old are you?
I suggest you get some perspective, maybe read a little history…
The Battan Death March, The Rape of Nanking, Drawn and Quarterd for Treason, The Hanoi Hilton, The Gulags….see how the rest of the “real world” typically treats ITS prisoners..
THEN comment on how horrible we are.
Get some facts before you get yourself (or someone else) killed with your laughably niave liberal nonsense.
Speaking of torture, that reminds me, if I was given a choice between being water-boarded and being married to Fran Drescher, I would rather be water-boarded every day than to have to listen to her screeching every night when I get home from work. Just say’n.
Bravo, sir! Well done.
No matter where ones stands on weatherboarding, the argument that “torture doesn’t work” is at best ignorant propaganda and at worst a deliberate lie.
As is the indiscriminate use of the word “torture” to describe the enhanced interrogation techniques we used on some mass murdering terrorists in order to obtain not confessions but information — information about further plots we knew were ongoing after an attempt to slaughter 30,000 innocents murdered “only” 3000 in less than two hours on a few acres of US soil.
I very much doubt another nation state on the planet would have done any different. In fact, I suspect that 99% of them would have gone well beyond waterboarding if they thought they needed to.
TIME MAGAZINE??!!……
You’re going to use an article from TIME MAGAZINE to prove that the CIA and the FBI don’t agree on the usefulness of interrogation??
You really are a buffoon!
“Anybody who isn’t a clueless, immoral idiot knows that this is the right thing. Not only has CIA-style torture stuff has been shown to be far less effective than traditional FBI-type interrogations…”
Are you alleging that defendant Ghalaini was tortured?
Are you alleging that defendant Ghalaini was waterboarded?
Then why do you see fit to bring up this irrelevancy?
Are you confused or are you being mendacious?
Ghalaini is not a soldier, since he does not wear a uniform, although he does use the soldier’s tools of the trade.
Ghalaini is not a criminal, although he does break the law.
What Ghalaini IS is a terrorist, and that SHOULD place him and his kind in the same position as international law placed pirates on the high seas: ““Hostis Humani Generis”, or enemies of all humanity.
Entitled to no quarter and no mercy and protected by no nation.
Pursuit of them should be hindered by no picayune notions of sovereignty or jurisdiction, and when captured, they should receive no further trial other than ascertaining their identities and that they were involved in the act of piracy or terrorism in question.
An affirmative identification and finding of fact should merit only one sentence, that of hanging by the neck until dead, and the corpse left upon the gibbet until it rots.
Your quaint modern notions of “due process”, “civil rights” and “cruel and inhuman punishments” for unlawful combatants such as Ghailani do nothing but serve to define for the enemies of all humanity the safe havens from which they can further plot to perpetrate their violence upon us.
Not only are you a yammering fool, babbling irrelevancies, but you are a suicidal fool as well.
Legally, their status is that of Hague Convention francs-tireurs- meaning that the only “rights” they have are to a drumhead court-martial and a firing squad.
BC, you may label me a “clueless, immoral idiot…friggin moraon” for disagreeing with you, but my GRE scores say otherwise: 1530 out of 1600: 99th percentile.
Those who have no argument resort to name-calling. Like the old saw about the law. If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If both the law and the facts are against you, attack the plaintiff.[Or in another version, pound the table and yell like hell.]
Its the old “torture does not work” routine.It has been used for thousands of years,even by American Indians. It does work,and if you would let me ,I would prove it, on you.
Personally, I think that a torture more effective than water-boarding would be to force captured terrorists to listen to hours of tape-recordings of Fran Drescher’s screechy voice and her obnoxious performances. Or perhaps that would be TOO inhumane.
The author is, of course, exactly right. I’d also ask the question, “So what if they get guilty verdicts in a civilian trial”. Where do imprison anyone found guilty? I suspect people convicted of terrorism will not find the typical prison block a particularly hospitable place. The argument could be made that they may require their own facility, more akin to a POW camp than a civilian prison. All of this, once again, pointing out; what were they thinking by introducing purely military captives into a civilian system. Semi-related, if these folks are just waging war against the United States, not in the United States then can it be said, justifiably, that they’ve violated a law? Certainly they should be detained as long as they are a threat, but that doesn’t make them law breakers. Makes more sense to me to hold military tribunals to rule on; a. the person is waging legitimate war and can be held as a POW, b. the person has violated the rules of war and is a war criminal, which is entirely different than just any old civilian criminal, and will be dealt with in the manner appropriate for a war criminal.
Impeach Holder. Obama can come later. Holder is more important, because he’s the guy who should be stopping an out-of-control administration that is lawless and intent on destroying our Constitution. Obama is a lame duck already. A thuggish, criminal Justice Department is more dangerous than a thuggish, criminal President. Too bad we have both, but a criminal President can be brought to justice by a less corrupt Attorney General. Who can stand up to a corrupt Justice Department? It is the very essence of fascism.
I say IMPEACH Obama citing Holder’s DOJ and get rid of them both.
What Makes Me Furious Is How The GOP.Keeps Towing The Politically Correct Line.So Not To Offend The Master Manipulaters Of Political Correctness.Of Course Everyone With The Common Instincts Of A Mouse Knew How These Civilian Trials With 9/11 Terrorist Would Turn-Out.A Political O.J.Simpson Type Circus.Where Popularity,And Political Ideaology.Rules Over The Facts.Everyone Knows That Ignorance Played A Great Role In That Decision,But As Well An Intentional Act of Treason Against America,Especially those most victimized,As All Of America Was Victimized To Some Degree That Day,And Still Are Paying A High Price Against Our Own Lives,Liberties,And Resources To-Date.This Administration.And Everyone Who See’s America,To Be Subservient To The Will,And Power Of Political Correctness.And World Dictators Of The United Nations Of Dictators.Are Contributors,Aiders,And Abeitors Of Not Just Treason Against America.But Have Played A Role.In The Afflicted,and Deaths Of Everyone Of Our Military,And The Suffering Of Their Families.From Barack Obama,Eric Holder,Hillary Clinton,Michael Bloomberg,And Every Member Of Congress,That Contributed Or Conspired To The Lies,Hate,And Treason From The Top Leaders Of Our Government,Organizations,And Financiers Of Fraud.Such As George Soros.To The Anti-Anything,For Free Stuff,Predators,Perverts,Addicted,Obsessed Society Deadbeats,And Profiteers Of Modern Day Slave Trade.Every Thing These Deciples Of Lucifer Do.Is To Protect Evil,And Destroy All That Is Good.All Knew Going In Civilian Trials Were Meant To Put The Bush Administration,Our Military,Their Families,America Its Citizenry,And All That Has Made America The Greatest Force For Good In The World.On Trial,In A world Court Of Media Lies.To Satisfy The Death Worshipping,Destuction-A-Holic,Pathological,Socio-Pathic Natures Of These Sicophant Deciples Of Satan.All Who Are Profiteers Of Political Correctness,Promoters Of Socialism.Who Put Their Addictions,Obsessions,Lust,Eye On The Prize For Yourselfs,Rather Than Duty To Country,All Bear Some Blame For The Mess We Are In Today.The Same Can Begin Being The Solution To Our Problems,Or Continue Contributing To Our Problems.As We All Agree Our Leaders Are Corrupt.But They Are Just A Mirror Image Of Those Who Put Them There,Or Who Refused Either To Get Involved,Didn’t Demand A Thorough Vetting Process,Of The Character Of The Candidate”TRUST BUT VERIFY”Or Like Too Many Voted For Them To Profit Off Of The Slave Trade/Socialist Pork/Earmark,And Unearned Entitlement Pie.Nothing About All This Is Purely Accidental,Poor Choices,Or Uninformed Mistakes.It Is Mostly Intentional Acts Of Fraud,Corruption,Deception,And Treason,Against Human Life,Liberty,Rights,Equality,Independence,Truth,And Justice For All.To Flourish A world Of The Most Godless,Lawless,Addicted,Obsessed,Predatorial,Perverse,Selfish,Death,And Destruction Evil In The World,And Then Call It,And Them Good.God Have Mercy;Jimmy Joe/”The Liarfryer”
What makes me furious is idiots who think they’re writing a ransom note instead of commenting on a blog.
yeah, really annoying they let that trough, but block some of mine!
MONITORS WHERE ARE YOU?
Oh, the poor little boys who comment on every page and at every chance they get say you took up too much room.
Your comment was tremendous and I agree with every word.AMERICA, get off your fat backside and defend freedom.Don’t just waffle like these other blowhards.
I can’t be bothered to read commenters who capitalize the first letter of every word and don’t know enough to use the enter key.
What better lesson do we need? Take no prisoners! Kill them, in the field.
Obama/Holder’s moronics aside, this news consumer is irked by the presentation of the trial’s conclusion in the media.
Visuals count. In the one photo seen everywhere, the defendant looks like a deer caught in the headlights and evokes sympathy. A poor ignorant young African sucked up into larger affairs and gotten in way over his head.
The embassies in Africa were fronted in glass and the injuries from flying shards were horrendous. The images aired at the time–innocent African embassy employees streaming blood–were unforgettable. Why aren’t these images being replayed?
Until the public is graphically reminded of the crime committed, the trial and the underlying jurisprudence and politics are purely abstract.
Why aren’t these images being replayed?
Same reason we still see that guy in the hood, standing on the box, 10 years later, but NEVER a beheaded hostage…
The media is om the terrorists side.
Period.
Obama/Holder’s moronics aside, this news consumer is irked by the presentation of the trial’s conclusion in the media.
Visuals count. In the one photo seen everywhere, the defendant looks like a deer caught in the headlights and evokes sympathy. A poor ignorant young African sucked up into larger affairs and gotten in way over his head.
The embassies in Africa were fronted in glass and the injuries from flying shards were horrendous. The images aired at the time–innocent African embassy employees streaming blood–were unforgettable. Why aren’t these images being replayed?
Until the public is graphically reminded of the crime committed, the trial and the underlying jurisprudence and politics are purely abstract.
A general point.
By ancient tradition and treaty, war between nations is political, not criminal. You don’t try soldiers for the death and destruction attendant to legitimate acts of war. You detain prisoners because you want to keep them from committing further acts of war against you, but this has nothing to do with crime and punishment.
And war crimes trials should be held after the war is concluded, not during it.
How many German POWs in the Soviet Union, who should have been released at the close of WWII hostilities, were tried as criminals and imprisoned until long after the war was over? Do Obama and Holder want to set a precedent that encourages other countries to do that to OUR soldiers?
Neither the Germans or the Soviets never adhered much to the Laws of Land Warfare in WW2. It was a fight to the death from the dstart.
As for the Germans, they deployed Einzats Groupe in the eastern front,who’s soul functction was murder, not combat. They were exclusively for mass executions of civilians, these guys spent 8-12 hours a day every day, for months on end, doing nothing but shooting civilians in ditches. Not the best thing to do if you want “fair treatment” once you lose
You simply cannot compare their actions, and the resultant fate of other POW’s from their side, with any American Campaign or action.
Your comment is rather niave, sort of like saying:
“How do we think the Terror Drug Cartels in Mexico will treat Hostages if we impliment law X, Y or Z”
Bad guys are rotten, no matter what we do.
Youre appeasement mentality is dangerous
I must be missing something. Why try them at all, in any kind of court? They are non-uniformed, non-national, terrorist murderers. They are not signatories to any kind whatsoever of international treaty. There is no valid legal basis for trials or for that matter even military courts. If hearings were to be held concerning the actions of a particular accused terrorist it would be done on a ad hoc basis, not as a matter of policy.
Of course this has blown up in the dull faces of Obama, fresh from his disgrace in Asia, and his foully corrupt AG, the vomitive Eric Holder, who earned his points originally whoring for the Clintons.
Perfect examples they are of what liberalism [?] has sunk to.
The whole civilian trial thing was an exercise in the sort of irrational posturing that liberal[?] beasts must engage in to prove to their twisted selves they are a kind of superior breed.
Trash !
During World War II, 8 German spies were captured as they planned sabotage operations against the U.S. Most were tried and convicted by military tribunals, and executed all within a month of their arrests. The process was entirely affirmed by the Supreme Court. End of discussion. We should have been finished with the terrorist ilk at Gitmo years ago. Justice swift and sure has genuine deterrent value.
Rounding up enemy spies, saboteurs and terrorists and promptly executing them seems to work pretty well.
The Germans never again tried another sabotage operation in the U.S.
Nowadays, thanks to the liberal morons, Muslim terrorists are NEVER executed, no matter what, so naturally they kill Americans over and over and over again. They know that the worst that will happen to them will be three hots and a cot for years (until someone comes along and starts pardoning terrorists, as Bill Clinton did with some Weathermen murderers a few years back). Hell, because of clowns like Obambi, they know they won’t even be roughed up in jail!
Brilliant policy Dems. About what I’d expect from morons like Obambi and Holder.
They both ought to be impeached…at the very least.
WTF? Guilty on only one count of almost 300 counts? The terrorist “confessed” and it was not able to be used in the civilian court? Holder/Obama are in way over their heads. This AG is a joke! Now, the terrorists worldwide are enjoying this one on the U.S……again!
Holder/Obama are in way over their heads…
No they are not…they KNEW this would happen…they are not in over their heads, they are pushing OURS underwater, on PURPOSE.
They hate this country, and theyre making us pay
I say Eric Holder’s time as ‘Attorney General of the United States” would have ended long months ago, if the Obama administration was honest in their view of how objective justice should be carried out. How many more debacles will the President allow before showing U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder his walking papers or pink slip? What else will he be allowed to mess up because of his so called sense of “justice”? This man is past being a joke; equalled only by Homeland “Security” Head Janet Napolitono, as both are incompetent, and only want to spread their President’s agenda of “social justice”. Forget punishing any Black Panthers for voter intimidation of white American citizens at polling booths, which is illegal in the United States, punishing terrorists who killed innocent Americans, or securing the border, where terrorists and criminals are able to get in anytime they desire. Forget the increase in killings in Juarez right on the U.S./ Mexican border, as this seems to be irrelevant to the President of the United States, who is supposed to be the President of ALL Americans, not just the ones he sees fit to protect. Unbelievable what has happened in less than 2 years! I think Obama Care has gotten enough press already, so at this time, I will refrain further comments on that debacle and on Nancy Pelosi, the newly demoted Minority Speaker of the House. They will all be taken out in 2012, andthis will have been 4 years in their making, as they ignore the majority of Americans opinions every day.
It just goes to show you what happens when “the Law” ignores the law, and tries to enforce imaginary laws, that are not laws.
Irregular Enemy Combatents, not in identifiable uniform, and not representing a ligitimate Billigerant entity, are entitled to be SHOT upon capture….nothing more. THIS is indesputable.
The same goes for Pirates on the High Seas…an armed assault on any vessel by non-regular forces (see above) must be regarded as a life or death situation, as they are not acting on behalf of any authority but their own criminal greed. Since there is no “police authority” or “court system” on the high seas to bring these fellows should you successfully repel their assault and capture them, all maritime nations have agreed, for over 300 years, that PUTTING THEM TO DEATH on the spot is an acceptable course of action.
Saboteurs and spies captured in your own country also run the same risk.
The Laws of Land Warfare, and the Rules of the Sea, are clear in this regard…we have the clear, legal, enforcable authority to do so, by precident and agreement among (most) nations. It goes without saying that criminal acts committed by persons of nations we DO NOT have this agreement with are subject to the same…the laws are OURS to enforce, not THEIRS to contest.
It is, as it has been almost for forever, an agreed and standard practice to execute these type of actors immediately upon their capture, without trial or councel. This is fact, and precident. We have the legal authority to do so, period.
But for a hysterically arrogant, ignorant Left Wing, that will not allow what is SETTLED CASE LAW be followed, we would be rid of this “man caused disaster” of confusion and indecision over what to do with them.
The alleged “confusion” or “gray area” over what to do with these people is a MANUFACTURED FARCE, created by the dishonest, and sold to the ignorant.
Ahmed Ghailani was captured by Pakistani authorities after an eight hour firefight. He is not an American person , therefore should not be extended American rights to due process . Now he is an outhouse crazy murdering turdhead and deserves to be treated as such . That he should be brought here to be both be defended and proscecuted by pusillanimous ACLU types as well as having a judge of the same sort , is mind blowingly stupid , suicidally stupid . Leave it to the left , and prepare to die .
How long before al-Qaeda claims we’re injuring Muslims by causing them to split their sides laughing at us?
What has happened is simply what this administration wants and what it planned.
Period.
This is what the internationalist subversives are, internationalist subversives.
They don’t think in terms of politics but in terms of war, against America.
Obama/Holder’s office has issued a statement that they were, of course, right in this civilian trial. A ‘senior administrator’ is quoted as saying:
“So, we tried a guy (who the Bush Admin tortured and then held at GTMO for 4-plus years with no end game whatsoever) in a federal court before a NY jury with full transparency and international legitimacy and — despite all of the legacy problems of the case (i.e., evidence getting thrown out because of Bush-Admin torture, etc,) we were STILL able to convict him and INCAPACITATE him for essentially the rest of his natural life, AND there was not one — not one — security problem associated with the trial.”
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/11/senior-administration-official-defends-ghailani-trial-verdict.html
Ghailani wasn’t tortured (i.e., waterboarded). And even a military commission can’t use data obtained by coercion:
“[304(a)(1)] No statement, obtained by the use of torture, or by cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. . . . whether or not under color of law, shall be admissible in a trial by military commission . . .” Military Commissions Manual.
So how can this senior administrator suggest that the evidence, obtained as he says by torture (without informing us what this was), was ever, remotely, of use in a trial – civilian or military? It wasn’t. So, what’s his point?
Still, endlessly, Obama is into ‘blame Bush’. Doesn’t he realize, that this theme is dead and dry and that Bush is now moving back into the public eye and viewed in a positive light?
“So how can this senior administrator suggest that the evidence, obtained as he says by torture (without informing us what this was), was ever, remotely, of use in a trial – civilian or military? It wasn’t.”
It’s like that BC fellow’s comment up there at #12…it’s a total irrelevancy, designed to give the moonbat livestock mind-slaves their daily “bleating points”:
“Bush condoned torure! Blah-blah-blah!”
only serving to deflect attention from what a monumental failure this entire farce has turned out to be.
(Am I alone in wondering how long it will take Ghailani to appeal?)
“So, what’s his point? ”
Other than blowing a smoke screen, not much at all. This is essentially no different than the DemocRats’ Congressional soviet members making chin-music encomiums to what an “effective” Speaker of the House “Koo-koo bird” Pelosi has been.
They cannot DARE acknowledge the 800 pound reality that what they have so “effectively” done is anathema to the public.
The original red-blue split in the terrorist trial was that of war crimes versus civil crimes. Blue wanted a police action, with civilian trials, and deny the ‘we are at war’ issue. Red wanted mostly the opposite.
As a result of blues taking control of U.S. politics we have this sort of travisty with the outreach to non-citizens of granting them Constitutional Rights and the protocols of the U.S. justice system. That mindset formulates to the One World concept and the acceptance of international law being additive to U.S. law. This division, this battle is far from over.
This is an example of “Lawfare” as used by Muslims/Islamists because they see a use of civilian law for military affairs as our weak point to be sized and taken advantage of which takes up lots of time and money, clogs court schedules, and plays on the emotions of the liberal media.
We’re seeing the worst effects of this now when this twisted form of “justice” originates as a political tactic inside an elected Administration to prove that they’re “now in charge”. The current Administration is using this as a way to “get back at the man”, showing that the tables were turned against “the man” at the 2008 election, so that now we see an Administration behaving as an adolescent who rebels for the sake of rebellion.
So, a major hurdle right now is to find politicians in both Houses of Congress willing to put principle first by passing new laws explicitly aimed at our new borderless, stateless war against terrorists without uniforms, and who recognize nothing but their “sharia” and religious fatwas/edicts.
Killing these Muslim/Islamist terrorists is the only “law” which will get their attention. Anything else is wasting our time.
Struck out? Hardly.
He never even left the dugout.
Holder DID NOT STRIKE OUT!!!! This is exactly what they wanted!!!!! Don’t believe their stories for a second,Holder and Obama want these terrorists in civilian courts because they know the “meat”of the evidence will not be allowed.
The heading for this story should have been….. OBAMA AND HOLDER HIT A HOME RUN ON 1ST PITCH
People living overseas can see that this admin wants to weaken America from the inside. The health care bill will bankrupt every state,I promise you that it was planned. I said it before Obama was elected that he has been ‘placed’ in the position purely as a talker. Soros and the team run America now. Don’t leave it till its too late to see.!!!
So if I understand the issues, we have the following. He was convicted of one count of general conspiracy to commit murder and mayhem, but acquitted on 258 specific counts of conspiracy of murder and mayhem, because there was not enough evidence presented on the individual counts, because the evidence was excluded since it was “discovered” as a result of witness declarations acquired through “torture.” (Had I been on the jury, I would have acquitted on everything, since I fail to see how one can convict on the general conspiracy if you can’t convict on the specific acts caused by the general conspiracy.)
Further, the current state of the law allows the admission in court of dying declarations by suspects: even if the suspect was unlawfully killed by the police, his dying declaration is still admissible in court–on the theory that dying declarations are “truthful.” Yet the current law excludes the declarations of suspects experiencing “simulated drowning” during interviews. I conclude the law is stupid, and ditto for Holder and President. Moral of the story, don’t take prisoners on the battlefield: gut shoot em and try for a dying declaration while promising medical care.
Holder should be fired. Either he is incompetient a prosecutor or he is an idiot to think he’d win in civilian court or it went ecactly as Obama and he planned.
These people should never make it to a courtroom.
Confronted on a battlefield the issue should be
settled on the battlefield with a bullet.
Booger: Great job sir, that about covers it.
The article appears to imply that Obama and Holder are incompetent. However, since it’s well known that they’re Democrats, it’s simply redundant to say that they’re incompetent.
Comes with the territory.
Well, so much for the Obama and Holders BRILLIANT idea of trying known TERRORISTS or “enemy combatants” in civilian courts! It should have, at the very least been a Federal Court, for God’s sake! Just one more “laughing stock” idea out of the White House, and a glimpse of what is to come.
These “known” terrorists and/or enemy combatants should be held in front of a Military Tribunal, PERIOD! Why are these two idiots, Obama & Holder, so opposed to that? The “accused” Civil Rights, maybe? Holder is more enthusiastic about suing states within the republic than dealing with these Muslim fanatics. Is it me, or is something REALLY “ass-backwards”, here??
What about the “civil rights” of all the people (and their family members) who were killed by the likes of these scumbags? What about the Gitmo detainees that were released and are now known to be back to work, building bombs and plotting more attacks against the world at large?
You can NEVER “convert or rehabilitate” a devout Muslim intent on Jihad. Gitmo suits them all just fine; just leave them locked up to rot, for all I care.
Bugs=
“How many German POWs in the Soviet Union, who should have been released at the close of WWII hostilities, were tried as criminals and imprisoned until long after the war was over? Do Obama and Holder want to set a precedent that encourages other countries to do that to OUR soldiers?”
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You Liberals are constantly living “in fear” of what other countries “might” think of the U.S., or what “might happen” should we make the Jihadist Muslims (or anyone else) ‘mad’ at us.
Think REAGAN, and how he dealt with the threat from the Soviet Union. Seemed to work pretty well, didn’t it??!!
GROW A BACKBONE!
Libertyship46
“Why does Eric Holder still have a job? This jerk should have been fired as soon as he lost the ability to have the trial for KSM in Manhattan. I think that, after this screw up, plus because of the backlash from his attacks on the state of Arizona, his days are numbered. I think he’ll be leaving soon to “spend more time with his family.” And we’ll all be better off because of it.”
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Liberty,
One could only hope that “sanity” would prevail and Holder would leave. Trouble is, there is no “sanity” within this administration.
Unfortunately, Holder and Obama are one in the same, with the AG carrying out Obama’s “Strange New world” of the Justice Dept’s view on all things under the guise of “legality”. Unfortunately it won’t happen; Holder is Obama’s perfect tool for his Administration’s “reform” ideologies.
RE: Revo1117 November 19, 2010 – 12:45 pm
Re: the sentence: “It should have, at the very least been a Federal Court, for God’s sake!
Ghailani WAS tried in a Federal Court. My bad; a momentary “brain-fart” on my part. My apologies….
But, it DOES go to show that even IN a Federal Court, that justice IS NOT served to these scumbags!
Eric Holder. Hang in there, citizens. It may well take another two years to get rid of this baseturd. But we will.